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This article contains nothing on the UK's climate, for instance, how it could be placed in Köppen climate classification. -- Barberio 17:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The 230 is only a specification, it is still supplied at 240v.
See http://www.answers.com/topic/mains-electricity
reqmapin|England I think we could do with a map showing the borders of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - perhaps with major cities marked too. It would also be useful on Politics of the United Kingdom Cheers Andeggs 15:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm working on a version, although I fear it won't be good enough. There are a few problems with the above map: Extra lochs have appeared in Scotland, there are two bubbles between England and Wales. The Welsh border seems to extend up the Severn estuary.... Which cities to include is a problem; text may clash if the cities are too close. Also which font to use, regular or bold, underlines for the four capitals etc etc Rednaxela 00:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think we should avoid "county" boundaries as it is an ambiguous term. A popular definition includes all the unitary authorities as counties and that would look silly, other definitions split Yorkshire up into 5 or so separate "counties". Either stick with the constituent countries and capitals or use the
Government Office Regions (which is what the map on
England does.
Yorkshire Phoenix
08:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
What's the archive policy on this page? Discussions from the last week (indeed from yesterday) seem to have been archived already. Mucky Duck 09:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted an edit because I saw an unregistered user remove a source. Selmo
I removed this: "The part of Ireland still under UK rule has been subject to invasion and migration from Britain-most notably in the Settlement of Ulster by Scottish Protestants. ". Not that I disagree with it, but the section is about demographics, not history. Also this is just one aspect of a hugely complex subject, namely the migration of different peoples between the different parts of the UK, by regular movement and by conquest and colonisation. It seems wrong to mention this one aspect without mentioning the huge migration of Irish to mainland Britain, the migration of English to Scotland, the conquest of the Welsh, and a whole host of other subjects. DJ Clayworth 15:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I put the first part of that edit in. The rest of the demographics talked about various invaders. In an article about the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' (that's the official title of your state, by the way: the meaning of the word and can be found here: www.m-w.com) there was not a single mention of the British as invaders. Why? Why were those particular invaders omitted? In that precise context, it was only correct that I mentioned that fact that British invaders came to Ireland and that is how this small part of Ireland (currently) remains part of the UK. It is only your nationalism which is denying these particular invaders of this (current) part of the United Kingdom. 193.1.172.163 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Illogical might-makes-right self-serving rhetoric. By the precise same train of thought, in 1919 you would not use the word invasion to describe how Galway, Cork and Dublin became part of the UK. The British held power so apparently that nullifies the entire invasion. Christ almighty, guys. Orwell would be inspired by you if he were rewriting the Newspeak part again. It was an invasion, and the native Irish nationalist community has remained subject to this British invasion in all its sectarian ignomy, an invasion/ status quo which has been supported to the teeth by the entire aparatus of the British state since 1969. You are not talking to a reader of The Sun here. 193.1.172.163 19:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
For the second time this anonymous user has refused to play by the rules and has violated 3RR. I have reported this violation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:193.1.172.163_reported_by_User:Gsd2000_.28Result:.29 Gsd2000 23:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed lots of names in lists. Can we please try to keep the names down. I have been very harsh but the section read very badly, would you pleases consider this if more names are to be added. The UK article is too long and overly long lists are the easiest things to go. Rex the first talk | contribs 23:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure it will regrow but we can but try! I'm not sure when you mean by, I also linked a list, from an external source. Do you mean external from Wikipedia or a category like Category:British musical groups? Rex the first talk | contribs 11:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Naming conventions are currently being discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#UK geography terminology straw poll. Please join the discussion there to define a United Kingdom-wide policy. Mammal4 09:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
On a point of information, UK is consitiuted of 5 countries technically (see Constitutional status of Cornwall). The point is pedantic certainly, but, it has to be said, valid, and should be mentioned. Cornwall has a parliament, if further proof were needed. ( Graldensblud 17:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)).
Is over 60 million now. I haven't changed it though. Troubleshooter 09:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The [ BBC] quote it as 60.2 million, which I think must be rounded quite heavily. Can anybody find a reliable figure that's more accurate, or will we stick with 60,200,000? 195.224.127.180 10:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Could I suggest editors talk here instead of reverting over Welsh being included in official languages. Also why was Welsh and Scottish Gaelic not treated the same? Rex the first talk | contribs 13:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Semantics never was my strong point. However, official languages are a legislative issue. If one were to be reconised it would be done by an Act of Parliament. This has never been done but as every single Act of Parliament is published and debated over in English and no other language it becomes a no brainer.
Also one of the effects of making a language official is that every piece of government documentation has to be published in that language. While some documents are translated in to Welsh many aren't. It would be unthinkable to not publish a government document in English. Until such time as the government pass legistation stating that all documents must be published in Welsh as well it is not an official language of this country. josh ( talk) 14:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That BBC link is very interesting, and we should modify the statements about Welsh in this article to reflect it. Unless anyone has any counterexamples. DJ Clayworth 22:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Novice wiki user here. Are English and Welsh the two official languages of the UK? What about Scots Gaeilic and Ulster Scots? And what about Irish in NI? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.238.31 ( talk) .
There is no act of parliament that has ever defined official languages for the UK. However, the European Union has defined English as the sole offical language for the UK for its purposes. Although Welsh is an offical language of Wales and Welsh services can be accessed in other parts of the UK it is by no-means 'official' for the whole country. The problem with Scots Gaelic is that the language has never been spoken across the whole of Scotland. Gaelic was only ever a living language in the Scottish highlands and islands. Scots living in Central and Southern Scotland (i.e. the vast majority of the population) originally spoke a language called Scots (also known as Lowland Scots). Possibly the most famous speaker was the poet Robert Burns who was from Ayrshire (about 35 miles south of Glasgow). Although the devolved Scottish Parliament support the Gaelic language, it has never been seriously suggested as an offical language of Scotland or to be officially used in parliament. As a side note, I expect that there are probably more Punjabi and Urdu speakers in the UK than there are Gaelic speakers! christopherson78 15:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know why 1801 has been shown as the date of establishment? Technically the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was established in the 1920s but it can clear trace its roots to the Acts of Union of 1707 and indeed the personal union of England and Scotland in 1606.
"Established 1801" just doesn't do the UK justice: it makes us look younger than some of our former colonies, including the United States!
Yorkshire Phoenix
15:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a peculiar way of looking at it: "United Kingdom of" is actually part of the country's title (just like "Republic of"), not it's name. The name has been Great Britain ever since 1707 (this is why the ISO identifiers are GB and GBR, not UK). Whether it was officially a "Kingdom" or "United Kingdom" should be neither here nor there.
Yorkshire Phoenix
15:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
ISO's reasoning is that "United Kindom" is not country-specific (United Kindom of Denmark-Norway, United Kingdom of Sweden-Norway, United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarve, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, etc) and the union of any two existing kingdom's could compromise its uniqueness, whereas Great Britain is very specific (even though it does exclude Northern Ireland). Suggesting Ireland was an equal partner in 1801 and that the United Kingdom was not a continuation of Great Britain is somewhat misleading, regardless of what the Act says!
The current infobox is a vast improvement: but lists a different set of events to the {{ UKFormation}} template (to the right of this paragraph).
Do you think we could come up with a consistent list of establishment events for the UK for the infobox and the template?
The article states that : "Thousands are separated (formal) by a comma: 10,000. (To avoid confusion with continental countries which use the comma as the decimal separator, a space may be used, e.g. 10 000.) ". We were always taught in highschool that it was now non-standard to use the comma separator for thousands and that the space, or even no marker at all was the correct format. Comments? Mike 09:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There are two meanings of standard, and both meanings are limited to a certain set or subset. One meaning of it is the norm, the thing most commonly used. The other meaning is the thing that is formally agreed on by some body as the way to go, even if most people who ought to be obeying that standard aren't doing it. (Comparison: the legal standard may be to drive at a certain speed on one road, while the standard in terms of the norm of reality may be that everyone drives faster.) Either way, because of how countries in which English is the biggest native language are, the question of 'standard', except in terms of the norm for actual use, is always really limited to some subset (a school curriculum, a publishing house's style guide, a government office's writing guidelines, &c.) not the nation as a whole. — President Lethe 13:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
for the sake of this discussion page, especially people who want to discuss matters unrelated to the first line of the article, I have undertaken a major sub-page/archiving of this page into three separate subsections all linking from Talk:United Kingdom/Terminology. I apologise for any inconvenience caused, but I honestly do not believe it to be fair that this one topic dominates this page in such a way. Furthermore, the length of the page(s) are now much shorter, making it easier to get to the latest changes.
Cheers, DJR ( T) 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Though I'd would suggest that all of the above be archived as soon as some sort of resolution is reached. DJR ( T) 18:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term British. At Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links, British is the disambiguation pages with the most links (by far), and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and try to disambiguate the links to a more correct location. It's actually pretty easy, and most get disambiguated to United Kingdom. If we could get 10 or so people doing 50 links a day, we'll be done in no time. Thanks in advance , -- Jeff3000 03:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no reference for this claim, and I have heard others. Actually, here are three:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29 (6th) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 (5th) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html (8th)
There need to at least be one credible reference listed, but even better would be to list both nominal and PPP from two sources.
I suspect the reference to fifth may come from the World Bank's figures, which can be found here: http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/DATASTATISTICS/0,,contentMDK:20399244~menuPK:1192694~pagePK:64133150~piPK:64133175~theSitePK:239419,00.html Hobson 23:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we clarify by listing at least two measurements, with sources. Mojo-chan 13:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose that the large and randomly expanding list of names in this section should be deleted. The appropriate information can be found via the above links. Viewfinder 16:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the list again, because the list reinstated by Mark Thomas was almost as long and random as the one I first deleted. I have also moved the comment by Mark Thomas to reflect the fact that it was posted after the move,and themove was made after earlier input from Mark Thomas, which dealt with the Irish inclusion question, not the main point. If further discussion shows up significant support for Mark Thomas's position then so be it, but Mark, please do not reinstate the list before allowing time for further comment. You are in the habit of making controversial edits without talk page discussion, see George Galloway. Perhaps the list of pop stars should be purged also. Viewfinder 22:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I replaced it and attempted a good revised edit in good faith after considerable discussion. The difficulty now seems to be that we have big lists of trivial pop stars and nothing at all on the greatest set of famous writers in the world. All very odd. List replaced until someone other than Viewfinder comes up with a good reason for deleting it but leaving Britpop trash in place. MarkThomas 08:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
For some reason English authors are being singled out for removal; as far as I can tell from the discussion, this appears to be because Viewpoint does not like MarkThomas. So let's have the list back for now. It could be shorter or longer but it's a great list! Why have all the music but not the writers who make Britain great? Is this anti-Brit prejudiced or something, as a US citizen living in the UK I notice this a lot. Sarah Williams 16:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Sarah, my key point is that if the authors list goes, the other long lists of scientists, musicians, etc, should go, but really it's a good page with all the lists, kind of a quick ref for people who don't know much about the UK. Nice of you as a foreigner to stick up for us. MarkThomas 17:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This contrived attempt, of extremely recent vintage, to say that Britain is now merely an "informal" name for the UK does not address in any way, shape or form the issue of precision, of accuracy. The proposers of the motion know it, which of course is why they want to create such a chimera away from the accuracy issue. Equating Britain with the UK is just as wrong in 2006 as it was in 1801, and it was so wrong even in the heart of the British establishment in 1801 that they renamed the British state from Great Britain to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The conjunction 'and' is, obviously, the key word there. Re-read. And re-read again. And again. Comprenez-vous? An dtuigeann sibh? If wikipedia wants to stand over such an inaccuracy, then it abnegates any right to term itself an encyclopedia on this issue. South Armagh is not in Britain, and it never has been. Have you people been asleep for the past few decades? And it doesn't really matter (in fact, it matters not a whit) if all 58.5 million people over in Britain jumped on screaming that a part of Ireland is in Britain- their nationalism will not change geography. When it comes to writing an encyclopedia, accuracy is everything. The entire wikipedia project is discredited by the triumph of British supranationalism over accuracy on this United Kingdom article. El Gringo 20:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A few days ago I modified the infobox including a new map. The older one has recently been replaced because it is considered coherent with the rest of the nations' wiki pages. That's true, but see for example the french pages about Italy or France. Don't you think that the new map is graphically better? It could be used for all EU countries pages. Let me know what you think about it. -- Kloud88 14:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Would it be extraneous to add in a bit about firearms or the lack thereof? It does seem to be common knowledge that they are not around unless for sport, but it might be worth mentioning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.138.80.20 ( talk) .
The CIA factbook 2006 states that UK military expenditure in 2005 totalled $42,836,500,000 (estimated). This ranks the UK as 5th in the World behind the US, China, France and Japan on total military spending (not a % of GDP, where the UK is ranked as 61st in the World). It therefore appears that the Wiki statement that the UK is 2nd in the World is incorrect. Additionally, a citation is required regarding the second in the world for "global power projection capabilities" statement, whatever that means.
While it may be shorter to put the title of this article as United Kingdom, this is not and has never been the name of the country, and is certainly not a name used regularly by British people to refer to thier country. The country is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so this should surely be the title of the article. United Kingdom and UK are no more accurate and formal ways of shortening the name than Britain is. Alihaig 12:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is different to other short names such as Britain. It is the formal short form of the country. It is regularly used in legistation to refer to the country. [2] -- josh ( talk) 14:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It still makes me think the shortened form is a colloquial or incorrect title. Halbared 13:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Short forms are neither incorrect nor colloquial. United Kingdom is the completely correct and adequate short form of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the same way that France is the short form of French Republic, that Mexico is the short form of United Mexican States, that Russia is the short form of Russian Federation, that Denmark is the short form of Kingdom of Denmark, and so on and so forth. Both forms are completely correct. john k 19:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it just my eyes, or has the map of the UK in the "Geography" section ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Uk-map.svg) been accidentally stretched? I think it's too high compared to its width, or too narrow compared to its height, whichever way you want to look at it. Someone should do a rough measurement to check... Matt 23:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC).
Further to the above, I measured "distance from Land's End to John o' Groats" divided by "distance from Land's End to Margate" and found:
Admittedly the ratio will depend slightly on the map projection used, but these figures bear out what my eyes are telling me. Matt 00:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC).
Would it be possible to get a map of the uk which is in proportion to the rest of the world or europe at least? Am I being a moron? I thought the UK was about half the size of Spain. France is even bigger than Spain, so why is it that many maps which claim to be physiucally accurate - and even some satililite photos - show the uk to be about the size of Spain and France put together? Alex, 07/10/06 16.44
The economy section lists Edinburgh as no 6 financial centre in Europe. It cites reference 55, which is an article quote from a debate in the Scottish Parliament, from which I quote:
What is even more remarkable is that Scotland no longer has the sixth position in Europe as a banking centre. A few months ago SFE updated its survey. It found that Scotland is not sixth, fifth, fourth, or even third, but is now the second most important banking centre in the whole of Europe, behind only London in its European and international importance. Indeed the chief executive of SFE tells me that when his survey reached that conclusion, he was so surprised he thought he had better check his figures, so he collected the figures afresh from another source and ran the calculation again, achieving the same result, confirming that Scotland was indeed the second centre in Europe
I think it's very unlikely anyway that Edinburgh ranks sixth, although I also think the above is exagerrated - Frankfurt is surely second. London is first. Zurich third - I would guess Edinburgh is fourth. Permission to correct my fellow editors? :-) MarkThomas 08:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined that we delete it as the source is not a guide to the statement, but am currently seeking a more accurate source on financial centre rankings than a rant from an MSP. :-) Mark. MarkThomas 08:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Modified it slightly, please review. Thanks. MarkThomas 11:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the latest of several unions formed over the last 840 years.
What on earth does this figure refer to? I can think of no event in 1166 that even remotely comes close to suggesting a political union. The Assize of Clarendon in that year guaranteed trial by jury in England, but that's the only major historical event that is worthy of note.
If we're looking for the earliest event that prefigured a unified administration in Britain, I would suggest the Battle of Brunanburh in 937, in which Athelstan, King of England, defeated and received the submission and fealty of the kings of Scotland, Strathclyde, and Dublin - allowing him to adopt the title King of All Britain. TharkunColl 13:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this before and have been meaning to raise it. It's really nonsense I think. The Lordship has nothing much to do with the concept of "United Kingdom" which essentially of course dates from James Stewart and is therefore really a modern phenomenon. I would be sceptical of any claim to a medieval parallel such as the empire of Edward I or an early medieval Bretwalda like Aethelstan. I would suggest we reword it as something like The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has origins in the Act of Union of 1707 and then developed into its modern form in the early 20th century with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. MarkThomas 16:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Very early in the text: "The attitude of the present government towards further integration with this organisation is mixed [9], with the Conservative Party favouring a return of some powers and competencies to the state [10]. " Does this need an edit? No mention to that point who the current government is and no mention that the Conservative Party is the current opposition. Rogerrab 21:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just received a new passport and on the title page 'European Union', 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' and 'Passport' are listed in English, Welsh and a third language, indicating that all three are official languages. This third language, however, is not an exact match for any of the British languages currently given in the infobox. The full name of the UK in this third official language is Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Éireann a Tuath. Can anyone identify this language? Incidently: European Union is translated as Aonadh Eòrpach and passport is caed-siubhail.
Yorkshire Phoenix
01:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the view on offical languages of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has been discussed in detail already. The European Union and the UK Parliament recognise English as the only offical language of the UK, whilst Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Welsh are minority languages. However, Welsh does have offical language status with Wales itself and various government servies can be accessed in Welsh throughout the UK. christopherson78 11:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"by playing a leading role in developing Western ideas of property, capitalism, and parliamentary democracy"
I thought the Dutch were the first true capitalists?? Or am I wrong? Superdude99 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is very misleading. In the last 300 years (i.e. since 1706) only two unions, not "several", have been formed - in 1707 and 1801 (the loss of most of Ireland in 1922 can hardly be described as a "union"). All the other unions that could be referenced, such as the Union of the Crowns in 1603 or the parliamentary unions between England, Scotland, and Ireland in the 1650s under Cromwell, fall outside of the specified time period. Just what, exactly, do we want to say here? TharkunColl 12:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed the map in the side box, showing the position of the UK within the European Union, and the member states of the European Union within geogreaphical Europe. I'd like someone to give a cogent reason (without presenting a POV on whether or not the EU should become a state in it's own right) why this map should be used.
Unless we use a map of the UK within geographic Europe or the world, with only the UK identified, we are presenting a POV on the politics of European union. The EU is not a state, just a regional grouping. The map used gives the EU an importance it does not possess and subtly also implies that the UK might be a subsidiary unit of that grouping, which is misleading for readers not versed in European politics. On their pages in Wikipedia we don't show Malaysia within ASEAN, or Brazil within Mercosur. We don't identify the EU members on the Croatia page. Clearly someone has deliberately gone through the pages of all states which are EU members and replaced their maps with those identifying their position within the EU; we might think they have simply done so to give a commonality of maps, but that does not justify what is a mispreresentation.
The map should be reverted to a standard common across all Wikipedia nation state pages. The maps used on the England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland pages should be the guides. JamesAVD 17:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you're right Mucky Duck, I'm suggesting the format of the maps used on the home nation pages should be the format we use, but only because this is the format used for the overwhelming majority of nation state pages in Wikipedia. The England/Scotland etc. pages have the benefit of being a starting point image to edit and revert to the former map of UK in a global geographical context.
I can't disagree with Robdurbar's points on the status of the EU, but whilst there are certainly constitutional/political links between the UK and the EU, there are also constitutional links between, say, the UK and the Commonwealth Realms with which the UK shares the same Head of State. We might be able to devise a map which represents the full range of UK political links but even if we could this does not belong in the summary box, not least as it is non-standard. That the EU has a unique institutional status should be represented on the Wiki entry for that organisation and not as part of the summary map for the UK. The map presently shown has a place somewhere but not in the position it presently occupies; we should revert to Wikipedia standards. JamesAVD 11:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
A number of users are attempting to force the inclusion of EU accesion date into the infobox of this and other country pages. It's apparently been there for some time but I've only just noticed it myself. Clearly this is non-standard (cf. Mexico) and is potentially promoting a POV on the constitutional status of the EU which is not appropriate for an infobox; I suspect some of the users making this change have a particular agenda they are seeking to promote. The inclusion of this information has not been discussed or agreed amongst the contributors to this page and it should be. Until we have a consensus, please support me in keeping it out of the infobox? JamesAVD 15:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
yandman 15:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please address the discussion being had here. We should (as a matter of policy) have a standard across Wikipedia for country infoboxes. Attempts to impose on as a result of decisions on a page non of us have visited is not sufficient (cf. watery bints handing out swords is no way to decide who runs the country).
It is a matter of your opinion that the EU is sufficiently different from (for instance) NAFTA to warrant a deviation from Wikipedia standards. The EU is a club with sovereign states as members. The existance of the EU depends, just like NAFTA, on treaties which sovereign states sign. An argument for including EU accession date is only as strong as an argument for inclusing date of joing in the UN (which is more relevant to nation states) or to any other regional bloc. From a UK prespective, the country has strong consitutional relationships with countries outside the EU: why not include these on a map? For the siple reason that we need a standard and NPOV approach to infoboxes. EU accession date, should, in my opinion, stay out. I'm interest in what others here think. Some other template page does not generate the interest or broad contributor base of a discussion page such as this. JamesAVD 15:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You'll notice that the discussion is being held at Template talk:Infobox Country, where the consensus seems to be for the EU maps. If you want to discuss it, go there. It is considered bad form to try and undermine a consensus by starting the same discussion somewhere else. yandman 15:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, contributor comments welcomed here or on any of the other various pages which Yandman or Kusma allocate. The consensus has yet to be established, except that the starting point should be a standard Wikiedia approach which avoids POV. JamesAVD 15:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DISCUSS THIS AT Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Location_Maps_for_European_countries--_discussion_continues as it involves more than just this country. — MJCdetroit 18:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed that two users attempted (see the history of this page) to REMOVE the discussion being had here! Can someone report these guys? How do I do that?! JamesAVD 15:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
They've since reverted their deletion of the subjects and move them here. JamesAVD 15:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No, as far as I can make out, you deleted them (perhaps accidentially) then reverted and moved them here. Apology accepted. JamesAVD 15:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No one has apologised to you. Please give a link showing deletion when making serious accusations like this. yandman 15:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the following text understates the situation regarding the Scottish situation:
"The resurgence in Celtic language and identity, as well as 'regional' politics and development, has contributed to forces pulling against the unity of the state [25]. However, there is at present little sign of any imminent 'crisis' (at the last General Election, both the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru saw their percentage of the overall vote drop, though the SNP did gain two more seats and are the second largest party in the Scottish Parliament as well as official opposition). Nevertheless many in Scotland would like independence [26] although most English do not[27]."
The poll cited indicates majority support for independence, and since then, ICM have conducted another poll which gave a larger majority in favour (51% yes vs 39% no, 57% of those who expressed an opinion). ICM has polls dating back to 1998 which indicate average support for independence at 54%. While perhaps "crisis" is too strong a word, the intervention of UK politicians such as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, and the Governor of the Bank of England in the current debate shows that there is concern in London regarding the Scottish elections in May 2007.
I would modify the text slightly thus:
"Nevertheless opinion polls in Scotland indicate that the majority are in favour independence [26] although most English are not[27]."
and add a reference to the ICM polls in addition to the YouGov reference.
Malcovic 22:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this page should be blocked....
I added Leeds as being able to claim 2nd city but someone removed it - Leeds is above Manchester here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_cities_by_population and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population and above Birmingham here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402384 . Therefore Leeds has equal claim to be second city.
"The British economy is the home of the Anglo-Saxon model, focusing on the principles of liberalisation, the free market, 'common law' relating to property, and low taxation and regulation."
Low taxation?? This really needs reviewing... 194.6.79.200 04:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, the UK is described as being located in "west Northern Europe". That sounds somewhat awkward, although it seems to have been done to allow links to both Western Europe and Northern Europe. Any ideas for something better-sounding? We could use a link to North-West Europe instead. Cordless Larry 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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This article contains nothing on the UK's climate, for instance, how it could be placed in Köppen climate classification. -- Barberio 17:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The 230 is only a specification, it is still supplied at 240v.
See http://www.answers.com/topic/mains-electricity
reqmapin|England I think we could do with a map showing the borders of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - perhaps with major cities marked too. It would also be useful on Politics of the United Kingdom Cheers Andeggs 15:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm working on a version, although I fear it won't be good enough. There are a few problems with the above map: Extra lochs have appeared in Scotland, there are two bubbles between England and Wales. The Welsh border seems to extend up the Severn estuary.... Which cities to include is a problem; text may clash if the cities are too close. Also which font to use, regular or bold, underlines for the four capitals etc etc Rednaxela 00:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think we should avoid "county" boundaries as it is an ambiguous term. A popular definition includes all the unitary authorities as counties and that would look silly, other definitions split Yorkshire up into 5 or so separate "counties". Either stick with the constituent countries and capitals or use the
Government Office Regions (which is what the map on
England does.
Yorkshire Phoenix
08:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
What's the archive policy on this page? Discussions from the last week (indeed from yesterday) seem to have been archived already. Mucky Duck 09:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted an edit because I saw an unregistered user remove a source. Selmo
I removed this: "The part of Ireland still under UK rule has been subject to invasion and migration from Britain-most notably in the Settlement of Ulster by Scottish Protestants. ". Not that I disagree with it, but the section is about demographics, not history. Also this is just one aspect of a hugely complex subject, namely the migration of different peoples between the different parts of the UK, by regular movement and by conquest and colonisation. It seems wrong to mention this one aspect without mentioning the huge migration of Irish to mainland Britain, the migration of English to Scotland, the conquest of the Welsh, and a whole host of other subjects. DJ Clayworth 15:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I put the first part of that edit in. The rest of the demographics talked about various invaders. In an article about the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' (that's the official title of your state, by the way: the meaning of the word and can be found here: www.m-w.com) there was not a single mention of the British as invaders. Why? Why were those particular invaders omitted? In that precise context, it was only correct that I mentioned that fact that British invaders came to Ireland and that is how this small part of Ireland (currently) remains part of the UK. It is only your nationalism which is denying these particular invaders of this (current) part of the United Kingdom. 193.1.172.163 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Illogical might-makes-right self-serving rhetoric. By the precise same train of thought, in 1919 you would not use the word invasion to describe how Galway, Cork and Dublin became part of the UK. The British held power so apparently that nullifies the entire invasion. Christ almighty, guys. Orwell would be inspired by you if he were rewriting the Newspeak part again. It was an invasion, and the native Irish nationalist community has remained subject to this British invasion in all its sectarian ignomy, an invasion/ status quo which has been supported to the teeth by the entire aparatus of the British state since 1969. You are not talking to a reader of The Sun here. 193.1.172.163 19:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
For the second time this anonymous user has refused to play by the rules and has violated 3RR. I have reported this violation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:193.1.172.163_reported_by_User:Gsd2000_.28Result:.29 Gsd2000 23:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed lots of names in lists. Can we please try to keep the names down. I have been very harsh but the section read very badly, would you pleases consider this if more names are to be added. The UK article is too long and overly long lists are the easiest things to go. Rex the first talk | contribs 23:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure it will regrow but we can but try! I'm not sure when you mean by, I also linked a list, from an external source. Do you mean external from Wikipedia or a category like Category:British musical groups? Rex the first talk | contribs 11:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Naming conventions are currently being discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#UK geography terminology straw poll. Please join the discussion there to define a United Kingdom-wide policy. Mammal4 09:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
On a point of information, UK is consitiuted of 5 countries technically (see Constitutional status of Cornwall). The point is pedantic certainly, but, it has to be said, valid, and should be mentioned. Cornwall has a parliament, if further proof were needed. ( Graldensblud 17:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)).
Is over 60 million now. I haven't changed it though. Troubleshooter 09:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The [ BBC] quote it as 60.2 million, which I think must be rounded quite heavily. Can anybody find a reliable figure that's more accurate, or will we stick with 60,200,000? 195.224.127.180 10:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Could I suggest editors talk here instead of reverting over Welsh being included in official languages. Also why was Welsh and Scottish Gaelic not treated the same? Rex the first talk | contribs 13:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Semantics never was my strong point. However, official languages are a legislative issue. If one were to be reconised it would be done by an Act of Parliament. This has never been done but as every single Act of Parliament is published and debated over in English and no other language it becomes a no brainer.
Also one of the effects of making a language official is that every piece of government documentation has to be published in that language. While some documents are translated in to Welsh many aren't. It would be unthinkable to not publish a government document in English. Until such time as the government pass legistation stating that all documents must be published in Welsh as well it is not an official language of this country. josh ( talk) 14:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
That BBC link is very interesting, and we should modify the statements about Welsh in this article to reflect it. Unless anyone has any counterexamples. DJ Clayworth 22:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Novice wiki user here. Are English and Welsh the two official languages of the UK? What about Scots Gaeilic and Ulster Scots? And what about Irish in NI? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.238.31 ( talk) .
There is no act of parliament that has ever defined official languages for the UK. However, the European Union has defined English as the sole offical language for the UK for its purposes. Although Welsh is an offical language of Wales and Welsh services can be accessed in other parts of the UK it is by no-means 'official' for the whole country. The problem with Scots Gaelic is that the language has never been spoken across the whole of Scotland. Gaelic was only ever a living language in the Scottish highlands and islands. Scots living in Central and Southern Scotland (i.e. the vast majority of the population) originally spoke a language called Scots (also known as Lowland Scots). Possibly the most famous speaker was the poet Robert Burns who was from Ayrshire (about 35 miles south of Glasgow). Although the devolved Scottish Parliament support the Gaelic language, it has never been seriously suggested as an offical language of Scotland or to be officially used in parliament. As a side note, I expect that there are probably more Punjabi and Urdu speakers in the UK than there are Gaelic speakers! christopherson78 15:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know why 1801 has been shown as the date of establishment? Technically the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was established in the 1920s but it can clear trace its roots to the Acts of Union of 1707 and indeed the personal union of England and Scotland in 1606.
"Established 1801" just doesn't do the UK justice: it makes us look younger than some of our former colonies, including the United States!
Yorkshire Phoenix
15:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a peculiar way of looking at it: "United Kingdom of" is actually part of the country's title (just like "Republic of"), not it's name. The name has been Great Britain ever since 1707 (this is why the ISO identifiers are GB and GBR, not UK). Whether it was officially a "Kingdom" or "United Kingdom" should be neither here nor there.
Yorkshire Phoenix
15:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
ISO's reasoning is that "United Kindom" is not country-specific (United Kindom of Denmark-Norway, United Kingdom of Sweden-Norway, United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarve, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, etc) and the union of any two existing kingdom's could compromise its uniqueness, whereas Great Britain is very specific (even though it does exclude Northern Ireland). Suggesting Ireland was an equal partner in 1801 and that the United Kingdom was not a continuation of Great Britain is somewhat misleading, regardless of what the Act says!
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The current infobox is a vast improvement: but lists a different set of events to the {{ UKFormation}} template (to the right of this paragraph).
Do you think we could come up with a consistent list of establishment events for the UK for the infobox and the template?
The article states that : "Thousands are separated (formal) by a comma: 10,000. (To avoid confusion with continental countries which use the comma as the decimal separator, a space may be used, e.g. 10 000.) ". We were always taught in highschool that it was now non-standard to use the comma separator for thousands and that the space, or even no marker at all was the correct format. Comments? Mike 09:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There are two meanings of standard, and both meanings are limited to a certain set or subset. One meaning of it is the norm, the thing most commonly used. The other meaning is the thing that is formally agreed on by some body as the way to go, even if most people who ought to be obeying that standard aren't doing it. (Comparison: the legal standard may be to drive at a certain speed on one road, while the standard in terms of the norm of reality may be that everyone drives faster.) Either way, because of how countries in which English is the biggest native language are, the question of 'standard', except in terms of the norm for actual use, is always really limited to some subset (a school curriculum, a publishing house's style guide, a government office's writing guidelines, &c.) not the nation as a whole. — President Lethe 13:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
for the sake of this discussion page, especially people who want to discuss matters unrelated to the first line of the article, I have undertaken a major sub-page/archiving of this page into three separate subsections all linking from Talk:United Kingdom/Terminology. I apologise for any inconvenience caused, but I honestly do not believe it to be fair that this one topic dominates this page in such a way. Furthermore, the length of the page(s) are now much shorter, making it easier to get to the latest changes.
Cheers, DJR ( T) 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. Though I'd would suggest that all of the above be archived as soon as some sort of resolution is reached. DJR ( T) 18:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello everyone, there is a current need to help disambiguate the term British. At Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links, British is the disambiguation pages with the most links (by far), and ideally there should be no links to disambiguation pages. So if possible, please take a look at the links, and try to disambiguate the links to a more correct location. It's actually pretty easy, and most get disambiguated to United Kingdom. If we could get 10 or so people doing 50 links a day, we'll be done in no time. Thanks in advance , -- Jeff3000 03:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no reference for this claim, and I have heard others. Actually, here are three:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29 (6th) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 (5th) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html (8th)
There need to at least be one credible reference listed, but even better would be to list both nominal and PPP from two sources.
I suspect the reference to fifth may come from the World Bank's figures, which can be found here: http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/DATASTATISTICS/0,,contentMDK:20399244~menuPK:1192694~pagePK:64133150~piPK:64133175~theSitePK:239419,00.html Hobson 23:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we clarify by listing at least two measurements, with sources. Mojo-chan 13:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose that the large and randomly expanding list of names in this section should be deleted. The appropriate information can be found via the above links. Viewfinder 16:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the list again, because the list reinstated by Mark Thomas was almost as long and random as the one I first deleted. I have also moved the comment by Mark Thomas to reflect the fact that it was posted after the move,and themove was made after earlier input from Mark Thomas, which dealt with the Irish inclusion question, not the main point. If further discussion shows up significant support for Mark Thomas's position then so be it, but Mark, please do not reinstate the list before allowing time for further comment. You are in the habit of making controversial edits without talk page discussion, see George Galloway. Perhaps the list of pop stars should be purged also. Viewfinder 22:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I replaced it and attempted a good revised edit in good faith after considerable discussion. The difficulty now seems to be that we have big lists of trivial pop stars and nothing at all on the greatest set of famous writers in the world. All very odd. List replaced until someone other than Viewfinder comes up with a good reason for deleting it but leaving Britpop trash in place. MarkThomas 08:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
For some reason English authors are being singled out for removal; as far as I can tell from the discussion, this appears to be because Viewpoint does not like MarkThomas. So let's have the list back for now. It could be shorter or longer but it's a great list! Why have all the music but not the writers who make Britain great? Is this anti-Brit prejudiced or something, as a US citizen living in the UK I notice this a lot. Sarah Williams 16:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Sarah, my key point is that if the authors list goes, the other long lists of scientists, musicians, etc, should go, but really it's a good page with all the lists, kind of a quick ref for people who don't know much about the UK. Nice of you as a foreigner to stick up for us. MarkThomas 17:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This contrived attempt, of extremely recent vintage, to say that Britain is now merely an "informal" name for the UK does not address in any way, shape or form the issue of precision, of accuracy. The proposers of the motion know it, which of course is why they want to create such a chimera away from the accuracy issue. Equating Britain with the UK is just as wrong in 2006 as it was in 1801, and it was so wrong even in the heart of the British establishment in 1801 that they renamed the British state from Great Britain to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The conjunction 'and' is, obviously, the key word there. Re-read. And re-read again. And again. Comprenez-vous? An dtuigeann sibh? If wikipedia wants to stand over such an inaccuracy, then it abnegates any right to term itself an encyclopedia on this issue. South Armagh is not in Britain, and it never has been. Have you people been asleep for the past few decades? And it doesn't really matter (in fact, it matters not a whit) if all 58.5 million people over in Britain jumped on screaming that a part of Ireland is in Britain- their nationalism will not change geography. When it comes to writing an encyclopedia, accuracy is everything. The entire wikipedia project is discredited by the triumph of British supranationalism over accuracy on this United Kingdom article. El Gringo 20:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
A few days ago I modified the infobox including a new map. The older one has recently been replaced because it is considered coherent with the rest of the nations' wiki pages. That's true, but see for example the french pages about Italy or France. Don't you think that the new map is graphically better? It could be used for all EU countries pages. Let me know what you think about it. -- Kloud88 14:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Would it be extraneous to add in a bit about firearms or the lack thereof? It does seem to be common knowledge that they are not around unless for sport, but it might be worth mentioning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.138.80.20 ( talk) .
The CIA factbook 2006 states that UK military expenditure in 2005 totalled $42,836,500,000 (estimated). This ranks the UK as 5th in the World behind the US, China, France and Japan on total military spending (not a % of GDP, where the UK is ranked as 61st in the World). It therefore appears that the Wiki statement that the UK is 2nd in the World is incorrect. Additionally, a citation is required regarding the second in the world for "global power projection capabilities" statement, whatever that means.
While it may be shorter to put the title of this article as United Kingdom, this is not and has never been the name of the country, and is certainly not a name used regularly by British people to refer to thier country. The country is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so this should surely be the title of the article. United Kingdom and UK are no more accurate and formal ways of shortening the name than Britain is. Alihaig 12:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is different to other short names such as Britain. It is the formal short form of the country. It is regularly used in legistation to refer to the country. [2] -- josh ( talk) 14:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It still makes me think the shortened form is a colloquial or incorrect title. Halbared 13:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Short forms are neither incorrect nor colloquial. United Kingdom is the completely correct and adequate short form of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the same way that France is the short form of French Republic, that Mexico is the short form of United Mexican States, that Russia is the short form of Russian Federation, that Denmark is the short form of Kingdom of Denmark, and so on and so forth. Both forms are completely correct. john k 19:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it just my eyes, or has the map of the UK in the "Geography" section ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Uk-map.svg) been accidentally stretched? I think it's too high compared to its width, or too narrow compared to its height, whichever way you want to look at it. Someone should do a rough measurement to check... Matt 23:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC).
Further to the above, I measured "distance from Land's End to John o' Groats" divided by "distance from Land's End to Margate" and found:
Admittedly the ratio will depend slightly on the map projection used, but these figures bear out what my eyes are telling me. Matt 00:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC).
Would it be possible to get a map of the uk which is in proportion to the rest of the world or europe at least? Am I being a moron? I thought the UK was about half the size of Spain. France is even bigger than Spain, so why is it that many maps which claim to be physiucally accurate - and even some satililite photos - show the uk to be about the size of Spain and France put together? Alex, 07/10/06 16.44
The economy section lists Edinburgh as no 6 financial centre in Europe. It cites reference 55, which is an article quote from a debate in the Scottish Parliament, from which I quote:
What is even more remarkable is that Scotland no longer has the sixth position in Europe as a banking centre. A few months ago SFE updated its survey. It found that Scotland is not sixth, fifth, fourth, or even third, but is now the second most important banking centre in the whole of Europe, behind only London in its European and international importance. Indeed the chief executive of SFE tells me that when his survey reached that conclusion, he was so surprised he thought he had better check his figures, so he collected the figures afresh from another source and ran the calculation again, achieving the same result, confirming that Scotland was indeed the second centre in Europe
I think it's very unlikely anyway that Edinburgh ranks sixth, although I also think the above is exagerrated - Frankfurt is surely second. London is first. Zurich third - I would guess Edinburgh is fourth. Permission to correct my fellow editors? :-) MarkThomas 08:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined that we delete it as the source is not a guide to the statement, but am currently seeking a more accurate source on financial centre rankings than a rant from an MSP. :-) Mark. MarkThomas 08:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Modified it slightly, please review. Thanks. MarkThomas 11:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the latest of several unions formed over the last 840 years.
What on earth does this figure refer to? I can think of no event in 1166 that even remotely comes close to suggesting a political union. The Assize of Clarendon in that year guaranteed trial by jury in England, but that's the only major historical event that is worthy of note.
If we're looking for the earliest event that prefigured a unified administration in Britain, I would suggest the Battle of Brunanburh in 937, in which Athelstan, King of England, defeated and received the submission and fealty of the kings of Scotland, Strathclyde, and Dublin - allowing him to adopt the title King of All Britain. TharkunColl 13:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed this before and have been meaning to raise it. It's really nonsense I think. The Lordship has nothing much to do with the concept of "United Kingdom" which essentially of course dates from James Stewart and is therefore really a modern phenomenon. I would be sceptical of any claim to a medieval parallel such as the empire of Edward I or an early medieval Bretwalda like Aethelstan. I would suggest we reword it as something like The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has origins in the Act of Union of 1707 and then developed into its modern form in the early 20th century with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. MarkThomas 16:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Very early in the text: "The attitude of the present government towards further integration with this organisation is mixed [9], with the Conservative Party favouring a return of some powers and competencies to the state [10]. " Does this need an edit? No mention to that point who the current government is and no mention that the Conservative Party is the current opposition. Rogerrab 21:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just received a new passport and on the title page 'European Union', 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' and 'Passport' are listed in English, Welsh and a third language, indicating that all three are official languages. This third language, however, is not an exact match for any of the British languages currently given in the infobox. The full name of the UK in this third official language is Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Éireann a Tuath. Can anyone identify this language? Incidently: European Union is translated as Aonadh Eòrpach and passport is caed-siubhail.
Yorkshire Phoenix
01:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the view on offical languages of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has been discussed in detail already. The European Union and the UK Parliament recognise English as the only offical language of the UK, whilst Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Welsh are minority languages. However, Welsh does have offical language status with Wales itself and various government servies can be accessed in Welsh throughout the UK. christopherson78 11:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
"by playing a leading role in developing Western ideas of property, capitalism, and parliamentary democracy"
I thought the Dutch were the first true capitalists?? Or am I wrong? Superdude99 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is very misleading. In the last 300 years (i.e. since 1706) only two unions, not "several", have been formed - in 1707 and 1801 (the loss of most of Ireland in 1922 can hardly be described as a "union"). All the other unions that could be referenced, such as the Union of the Crowns in 1603 or the parliamentary unions between England, Scotland, and Ireland in the 1650s under Cromwell, fall outside of the specified time period. Just what, exactly, do we want to say here? TharkunColl 12:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed the map in the side box, showing the position of the UK within the European Union, and the member states of the European Union within geogreaphical Europe. I'd like someone to give a cogent reason (without presenting a POV on whether or not the EU should become a state in it's own right) why this map should be used.
Unless we use a map of the UK within geographic Europe or the world, with only the UK identified, we are presenting a POV on the politics of European union. The EU is not a state, just a regional grouping. The map used gives the EU an importance it does not possess and subtly also implies that the UK might be a subsidiary unit of that grouping, which is misleading for readers not versed in European politics. On their pages in Wikipedia we don't show Malaysia within ASEAN, or Brazil within Mercosur. We don't identify the EU members on the Croatia page. Clearly someone has deliberately gone through the pages of all states which are EU members and replaced their maps with those identifying their position within the EU; we might think they have simply done so to give a commonality of maps, but that does not justify what is a mispreresentation.
The map should be reverted to a standard common across all Wikipedia nation state pages. The maps used on the England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland pages should be the guides. JamesAVD 17:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you're right Mucky Duck, I'm suggesting the format of the maps used on the home nation pages should be the format we use, but only because this is the format used for the overwhelming majority of nation state pages in Wikipedia. The England/Scotland etc. pages have the benefit of being a starting point image to edit and revert to the former map of UK in a global geographical context.
I can't disagree with Robdurbar's points on the status of the EU, but whilst there are certainly constitutional/political links between the UK and the EU, there are also constitutional links between, say, the UK and the Commonwealth Realms with which the UK shares the same Head of State. We might be able to devise a map which represents the full range of UK political links but even if we could this does not belong in the summary box, not least as it is non-standard. That the EU has a unique institutional status should be represented on the Wiki entry for that organisation and not as part of the summary map for the UK. The map presently shown has a place somewhere but not in the position it presently occupies; we should revert to Wikipedia standards. JamesAVD 11:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
A number of users are attempting to force the inclusion of EU accesion date into the infobox of this and other country pages. It's apparently been there for some time but I've only just noticed it myself. Clearly this is non-standard (cf. Mexico) and is potentially promoting a POV on the constitutional status of the EU which is not appropriate for an infobox; I suspect some of the users making this change have a particular agenda they are seeking to promote. The inclusion of this information has not been discussed or agreed amongst the contributors to this page and it should be. Until we have a consensus, please support me in keeping it out of the infobox? JamesAVD 15:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
yandman 15:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please address the discussion being had here. We should (as a matter of policy) have a standard across Wikipedia for country infoboxes. Attempts to impose on as a result of decisions on a page non of us have visited is not sufficient (cf. watery bints handing out swords is no way to decide who runs the country).
It is a matter of your opinion that the EU is sufficiently different from (for instance) NAFTA to warrant a deviation from Wikipedia standards. The EU is a club with sovereign states as members. The existance of the EU depends, just like NAFTA, on treaties which sovereign states sign. An argument for including EU accession date is only as strong as an argument for inclusing date of joing in the UN (which is more relevant to nation states) or to any other regional bloc. From a UK prespective, the country has strong consitutional relationships with countries outside the EU: why not include these on a map? For the siple reason that we need a standard and NPOV approach to infoboxes. EU accession date, should, in my opinion, stay out. I'm interest in what others here think. Some other template page does not generate the interest or broad contributor base of a discussion page such as this. JamesAVD 15:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You'll notice that the discussion is being held at Template talk:Infobox Country, where the consensus seems to be for the EU maps. If you want to discuss it, go there. It is considered bad form to try and undermine a consensus by starting the same discussion somewhere else. yandman 15:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, contributor comments welcomed here or on any of the other various pages which Yandman or Kusma allocate. The consensus has yet to be established, except that the starting point should be a standard Wikiedia approach which avoids POV. JamesAVD 15:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DISCUSS THIS AT Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Location_Maps_for_European_countries--_discussion_continues as it involves more than just this country. — MJCdetroit 18:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just noticed that two users attempted (see the history of this page) to REMOVE the discussion being had here! Can someone report these guys? How do I do that?! JamesAVD 15:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
They've since reverted their deletion of the subjects and move them here. JamesAVD 15:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No, as far as I can make out, you deleted them (perhaps accidentially) then reverted and moved them here. Apology accepted. JamesAVD 15:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No one has apologised to you. Please give a link showing deletion when making serious accusations like this. yandman 15:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the following text understates the situation regarding the Scottish situation:
"The resurgence in Celtic language and identity, as well as 'regional' politics and development, has contributed to forces pulling against the unity of the state [25]. However, there is at present little sign of any imminent 'crisis' (at the last General Election, both the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru saw their percentage of the overall vote drop, though the SNP did gain two more seats and are the second largest party in the Scottish Parliament as well as official opposition). Nevertheless many in Scotland would like independence [26] although most English do not[27]."
The poll cited indicates majority support for independence, and since then, ICM have conducted another poll which gave a larger majority in favour (51% yes vs 39% no, 57% of those who expressed an opinion). ICM has polls dating back to 1998 which indicate average support for independence at 54%. While perhaps "crisis" is too strong a word, the intervention of UK politicians such as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, and the Governor of the Bank of England in the current debate shows that there is concern in London regarding the Scottish elections in May 2007.
I would modify the text slightly thus:
"Nevertheless opinion polls in Scotland indicate that the majority are in favour independence [26] although most English are not[27]."
and add a reference to the ICM polls in addition to the YouGov reference.
Malcovic 22:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this page should be blocked....
I added Leeds as being able to claim 2nd city but someone removed it - Leeds is above Manchester here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_cities_by_population and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population and above Birmingham here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402384 . Therefore Leeds has equal claim to be second city.
"The British economy is the home of the Anglo-Saxon model, focusing on the principles of liberalisation, the free market, 'common law' relating to property, and low taxation and regulation."
Low taxation?? This really needs reviewing... 194.6.79.200 04:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, the UK is described as being located in "west Northern Europe". That sounds somewhat awkward, although it seems to have been done to allow links to both Western Europe and Northern Europe. Any ideas for something better-sounding? We could use a link to North-West Europe instead. Cordless Larry 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)