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Now let me get this right: the section on 'Terminology' is almost as long as the section on 'History'. That says it all.
A concerted effort is required to make the language plainer and to clean up the mistakes in the prose.
Perhaps a clean-up notice should be posted at the top, like this:
{{cleanup}}
Tony 12:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, especially when there is a
British Isles (terminology) page.
Robdurbar
13:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd agree too. The trouble is it gets worried at too much - it has "just growed". Why don't we just delete it from this page and refer to British Isles (terminology) (where the arguments can continue)? Mucky Duck 14:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
What is really objectionable about the Terminology section is the 'oh, these people are offended at this, and those people at that' thing. When there's a fabulously rich history to be summarising .... And the language is kinda ... quaint. Sub-Fowler, without the precision! Tony 15:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I've reduced the terminology down to the skin and bones. I think it needs to be in there because it's something that is often misunderstood outside the UK (sometimes even inside). The cleanup tag is a bit excesive. This article has enough people working on it for suggestions on the talk page to be more effective than a cleanup tag. josh 19:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the clean-up tag should go back, and I think you should have discussed removing it here before doing so. Unless you can present a convincing case that the tag will not benefit the article in the short-term, I'm restoring it.
The 'Terminology' section still needs pruning. The 'History' section needs a lot of work and should be twice as large, INV, to be in proportion. The 'Government and politics' section suffers from the same clumsy verbosity as the 'Terminology' section (which I've already had a go at before I inserted the notice). Take the first sentence of G and P:
'The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy, with executive power exercised by the Government (formally Her (His) Majesty's Government) drawn from Parliament, headed by the Prime Minister. It is one of the few countries (and the most significant) that does not have a codified constitution.'
The article is indeed well below the standard needed for FA status; but it's well above "clean-up" quality. Have you seen other pages with that tag on them? In my experience it's reserved for the seriously scurvy-ridden. This page is in the vast middle area. Doops | talk 02:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
If the sign isn't there, no one will bother to make an effort to clean it up. The UK deserves to be a major topic that Wikipedians are proud of. There is probably a high hit-rate for the article. At the moment, it's seriously deficient. Before I had a go at it, the Terminology section at the top was, frankly, pompous and poorly written. It still needs work.
This is why I posted the clean-up notice at the top. Give me one good reason that it shouldn't be restored, other than that it might embarrass a few people. Tony 07:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't it start with the Celts, the Roman occupation, and the waves of migration during the first millennium? Just one paragraph might do it. Tony 08:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I've managed to get the article down to 33Kb. The main ways iv'e done this is:-
I think it's not a bad size considering the complexity of everything in the UK (probably the only country in the world that has to explain what it is first). I think the size of the info box needs to be reduced as well. The names could go in another article and then be referenced. josh 20:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes it's a Unitary state but the first sentance should use the most common desciption. It could also be called a kingdom, commonwealth realm, union, member of the UN security council etc. Every other country is called a country in the first sentance the UK shouldn't be any different.unsigned
The UK is different. Unlike other entities it is not a country but an amalgam of countries, all of which have retained a separate sense of national identity, unlike in Germany, for example, where a separate country identity does not exist in the lander, even though they once were themselves separate countries (pace Bavaria.) Indeed within Wales and in particular in England and Scotland there is a separate sense of national identity and separateness from the other countries in the UK that is not found in say US or German states, or in the regions of Italy. So to call the UK a country is at best POV. In the views of many in the various countries within the UK, it is factually wrong and demotes their countries to mere regions, something they clearly are not.
The UK is a state. It is standard where one is talking about federal or confederal states to refer to them as a federal state or a conferation. The UK however belongs to the third category in that definition tree: a unitary state, a single state governed from the centre but where the centre has given (ie, in home rule) or could give, certain governmental powers to subsidary units that owe their legal existence to the whims of the centre and can be abolished at will (ie, they have no constitutional right to exist in their own right). So just as it is normal to call a federal state by that name, especially if it is not a country but is a federation countries, so it is standard to refer to a single state containing countries but in which all power theoretically resides in the centre as a unitary state.
Calling the UK a "country" in this article makes the article a joke. For one thing a country cannot have countries in it. But then as this article shows, whomever defined the categories here doesn't seem to know such elementary facts as the difference between states, nations and countries. They are different things. Calling the UK a country is constitutionally illiterate.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
23:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
By your definition half wikipedia is wrong. Along with the UN [1], the EUhttp://europe.eu.int/abc/governments/index_en.htm, the IMF [2] and any other institution that seems to wrongly believe the UK is a country. In the country article it is given a definition of any independent political entity. It goes on to describe a state as a subdivision of the country. josh 00:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, some people have different understandings of the word country. But encyclopædias need to be precise. Accuracy is a fundamental requirement in an encyclopædia. That is why we don't call Queen Elizabeth the "Queen of England". An encylopædia's need for accuracy means that we have to define her title strictly and accurately. Similarly we don't call the Republic of Ireland the "Irish Republic", even though some elements of the media do, because it is not correct. The Irish Republic actually was the title of the 1919-1922 UDI Irish state. Accurately is a fundamental requirment is a project like this, not merely something that sounds kinda right-ish. Unitary state is the best option. It is
Country means everything and nothing. A historian, a political scientist, a school-kid, an academic, and ordinary person in the street, may well mean different things when they use the word. That some of ambiguity is not something an encyclopædia should have, certainly not in an article on the UK, when there are already nations within the UK that also describe themselves as countries. People should be able to read the article and know exactly what we mean, not read the article and be confused wondering "which definition do they mean", "what do they mean by that?" Or even worse, "but isn't Scotland a country too? How can you have a country in a country? I'm confused."
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
16:53, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem is while people still understand what Republic of Ireland means, the majority won't understand the meaning of unitary state. They will instantly percive it as some obscure political system. unitary state is:
Country is a standard term. Look at any UN, IMF, World Bank, EU website/document and the UK comes under the list of countries. Saying that country cannot contain another country is like saying a company cannot contain another company. It's the job of the England, Scotland, Wales articles to point out that they are not an officially reconised country (as they already do). Specifying exactly what the UK is is the job of the body of the article. The first sentance establishes the general category. Using the term unitary state it elitest and harks back to the days when scholers used obscure terms to keep knowledge away from the masses. josh 17:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
They are not writing encyclopædias. An encyclopædia is in effect a factual dictionary that has at its basis absolute factual accuracy. WB, IMF, UN documents are not definitionary but explorative and discursive. The explore and inform, with a presumption that definitions are contained in encyclopædias. If you think unitary state is elitist you clearly don't under what either a unitary state is or the term elitist means. It is a standard term understood by millions. Country is an ambiguous term with any number of meanings and lacks the specificality required in encyclopædias, particularly in the context of a state containing what many people believe are countries. Your claim that England, Scotland and Wales each are "not an officially reconised (sic) country" proves that you don't understand what a country is. A "country" is not "recognised" officially. A state is what requires recognition.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
18:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
If unitary state is a term reconised by millions then how come i've never heard of it before. Even from my best friend at uni who did a politics degree never used the term. The term country is only ambiguous because of a few cases where a country isn't a country. If you state that the UK is a unitary state at the top of the article then some people will reading the rest of the article trying to understand what you mean by unitary state. Definition is the job of an encyclopedia but that doesn't mean you have to try and do an exact definition within the first sentence. In the case of the UK that would be impossible. It should clearly define the subject area using terms that as many people as possible understand. If I didn't understand the meaning of unitary state despite living in one for 8 years then what chance has someone who has never been anywhere near one got of understanding that first sentance. josh 18:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
If your friend doesn't understand unitary state then he should sue his university. It is a bit like someone studying how to build a car not knowing what an engine is! You obviously don't know that Wikipedia uses thinks called links to bring people to other articles. Try hitting the link. You'll find there is an entire article there on
unitary state.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
18:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Countries generally have a head of state, some sort of parliament (for democracies), representation in the UN, passports with the country's name on it, postage stamps, a judiciary and they are usually able to sign international treaties. I realise there are several exceptions that are missing one or two of these, but on the vast majority of countries have most of them. England doesn't but the UK does. Dmn € Դմն 18:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say she didn't understand it just that she never used the term. It's more like someone learning how to build a car but not refering to them as 2.5 litre V6 etc. The reader shouldn't be forced to use a link if there is a clearer way of defining something. Even if they use the link there may be some confusion over why we choose to use the term rather simply calling it a country. Pehaps we can leave the first sentence as it stands but add a second saying More specificly it is refered to as a unitary state or constitutional monarchy. That way there is no confusion over what the UK is but the reader may be aroused into finding out what these terms mean (if they don't already know) and get a better overall picture. josh 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
To quote Jtdirl: An encyclopædia is in effect a factual dictionary that has at its basis absolute factual accuracy. For an amusing thought-experiment, go through the any paragraph of this or any encyclopedia and try to bring it in line with that standard. Just as an example, here's a revised "unitary state" version of this article's first sentence: "The UK of GB and NI is the name given to a region of the world by the government under whose de facto control it is run — a government recognized by the UN and many other states as being the legitimate de jure authority there and which bears the characteristics of a unitary state — and to the collective polity formed by certain inhabitants thereof." Doops | talk 20:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Note Banned user
Skyring has been waging an edit war on this page using IP. Once identity established edit reverted. Keep an eye out for suspicious edits. Having targeted other pages for edit wars he has obviously targeted this one now also.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
00:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This is not a particularly balanced discussion. The UK is a country with three nations and one province. It's constitutional form is a constitutional monarchy with a unitary system. It's likely that Jtdirl is resisting the consensus here as a result of a (quite obvious) political POV. I've reviewed Wikipedia standards and provide a sample of opening sentences:
"France is a Western European country, with a number of overseas possessions. ... The French Republic (French: République française) is a democracy organised as a unitary semi-presidential republic."
"Germany, officially the Federal Republic of Germany (German: Deutschland or Bundesrepublik Deutschland listen ▶(?)) is one of the world's leading industrialised countries, located in Europe."
"The United States of America is a federal democratic republic situated primarily in North America."
"South Korea, officially the Republic of Korea, is a country located in East Asia, in the southern half of the Korean Peninsula. To the north, it is bordered by North Korea, with which it formed a single nation until 1948."
"The Republic of Serbia (Serbian: Република Србија) is a republic in south-eastern Europe which is united with Montenegro in a loose commonwealth known as the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro."
"The Republic of Kenya, or Kenya (IPA: /ˈkɛnjə/), is a country in East Africa."
"The Union of Myanmar, (also known as the Union of Burma), is the largest country (in geographical area) in mainland Southeast Asia."
"Barbados is an island nation located towards the east of the Caribbean Sea and in the west of the Atlantic Ocean".
Jtdirl would have each of these start, 'Such-and-such is a state in such-and-such a place'. That would obscure relevant detail and is just poor drafting. Were there a valid reason for do so, we would consider it. But there is not. We need to refer to the UK as either a country located off the north-western coast of continental Europe, and as a constitutional monarchy with a unitary state and four home nations (three consituent countries and the province of NI). I've amended the article and await a solid argument to revert should one appear. The better drafting also makes the terminology section redundant. I've also expaneded the sections on Welsh/Scottish devolution to encompass broader nationalist/unionist tendencies and pressures. All NPOV and I welcome sensible edits. JDancer 14:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Rednaxela 23:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The Scotland Portal is now up and running. It is a project in the early stages of development, but I think it could be a very useful resource indeed, perhaps more for general readers (the vast majority I presume), rather than committed editors, who may be more attracted by the great possibilities of the notice board format: Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board.
Give it a Watch, and lend a hand if you can. It is (hopefully) fairly low-maintenance, but if we run with the "News" section, that will take dedication: time which I cannot commit to presently myself. Most other boxes need replacment/update only weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, plus the occasional refreshment of the Scotland-related categories. Anyway, I assume this is how the other Portals are run, so we can follow their lead.
Please add the following code - {{portal|Scotland}} - to your own User page, and you will have the link to the portal right there for easy access. I will investigate how other portals use shortcuts too.
Assistance from Wikipedians in the rest of the UK, and indeed everywhere, would be greatly appreciated!-- Mais oui! 08:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Well given that London is the greatest city on Earth and the most wikilinked city on Wikipedia, it seems ridiculous that Bucharest had its own portal and London did not. So I made one. And made a right hash of it too. But anyway after figuring out how the boxes worked and after having about 4 hours work evaporate when Wikipedia crashed as I clicked "Save", it looks half decent. I've got some people from WikiProject:London helping, but not many of us have worked portals before...
Anyway, the Scots got their portal up and running so we Southerners were never going to be far behind. Ditto everything they said! Any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Deano 21:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I have added the following about Cornwall:
"In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [3] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the Cornish identity and constitutional status of Cornwall." Bretagne 44 19:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The page was getting seriously large so I took the liberty of archiving a chunk. Hope I haven't annoyed anyone too much... I kept the most recent stuff... Deano 19:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
It is, I know, customary to regard the UK as lacking a constitution and, instead, muddling along on convention. (This approach incidentally makes calling the country a constitutional monarchy inappropriate.) However, is it not important to acknowledge (a) the position of the crown and (b) the significance of the UK's ratification of various European treaties?
In the UK, as I understand things, sovereignty lies not with the people but with the crown, and it is the crown which governs. This suggests something very concrete in terms of the country's very essence. Things may look messy if you expect its government to be vested in a document such as a constitution, but one cannot doubt the significance of the crown nor dismiss it as mere convention. Perhaps one may say that the UK has a constitution, but it is significantly manifested in flesh and blood rather than writing.
On the EU matter, I understand that some believe that the UK's base-law is actually the various EU treaties, such as those of Maastricht and Nice, and, indeed, that, on certain matters at least, its highest court is not the house of lords but a court in continental Europe. This is a different view from one which would portray the UK as a country which gets by on tradition, in which parliament is sovereign, and which is a democracy presided over by a monarch. Also, the human rights act is written in quasi-constitutional terms and recently-passed legislation would allow the crown to suspend all rights except that act.
www.danon.co.uk
Afraid its not that simple - the sovereign is the 'crown in parliament'? says it somewhere in the article i think.
It is also true that the EU court is, in many cases, the highest court. However, the article does not (I think) claim the UK has constitution; more that it does not have a 'codified constitution' Robdurbar 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
N.B.
Mercator produced CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") in 1564: [4] [5]
Sebastian Munster produced maps depicting Cornwall as a distinct region of Britain in 1538, 1540, and 1550. [6]
George Lily produced a map showing Cornubia in 1556.
Girolamo Ruscelli did the same in 1561 portraying Cornubia alongside Anglia, Wallia and Scotia.
Johannes Honter followed this trend in 1561.
Humphrey Lhuyd and Abraham Ortelius produced Angliae Regni Florentissimi Nova Descripto in 1573, this showed Cornwall and Wales as distinct regions of England, however Cornwall was not portrayed as an English county. This map was re used in 1595 at about the same time that Norden produced the map of the Duchy (not county) of Cornwall.
From about 1600 things change the Mare Brittanica and the Celtic sea become the English Channel and Bristol/St Georges Channel respectively. At this time Cornwall also seems to become an English county. Why, there is no record of an act of union or annexation of Cornwall?
Bretagne 44 16:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
REX you really have trouble keeping up at times don't you? This is the start of an investigation into the change that occurred at this time (1600) which resulted in the general view of Cornwall being revised from country to county. It happened at the same time as a number of other changes in the way the British Isles where portrayed and I think this change is relevant to Cornish, English, British and UK pages on Wikipedia. It was a radical change that the establishment brought about in the way all Britons perceived their land.
Bretagne 44 20:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I fully appreciate your wish to campaign for Cornish rights, Bretagne, but Wikipedia is not the place to do that. Stop POVing articles as part of your campaign. There are plenty of places where POV campaigning is fine. Wikipedia is not one of them. FearÉIREANN 00:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The list of maps are completely pointless. Here's a more complete list. The majority list cornwall as part of england. The 1654 mercator map was actually produced by John Elder on the website it states that
In fact a later mercator map lists cornwall alongside the other counties. Maps are not offical documents but refect the opinion of the author. The only map authorised by Queen Elizibeth shows cornwall as part of England [7]. Please stop twisting the facts to fit your opinion. josh 20:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
When did Cornwall become part of England and whre is the documentation, we are agreed that it was a country, when was it annexed? Why is it a straw man? Bretagne 44 16:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
All very fascinating. I've noted a resurgence in Cornish culture and language as part of an expanded para on nationalist/unionist tendencies. In an already packed section, no further reference to Cornwall is justified.
JDancer
15:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This article could merge content from 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'.
There is not much to say about the distinction, it is mostly duplicated in both articles. The current arrangement of two articles adds little value and adds complexity i.e. instead of one permutation for linking a reference to United Kingdom, we have four (2 correct and 2 incorrect). In most cases where editors refer to events or history of the country, the distinction is not relevant.
The issues are not complicated. We don't make such a big deal out of it with other nations. Bobblewik 16:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
If it is not a question of principle but of size, we can debate size. See:
So the question of size is about whether a merged article can be a few sentences longer. Bobblewik 10:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - the two articles should be kept separate - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland is a distinct historical entity. (noticed this on WP:RfC). Thanks/ wangi 12:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The expansion and subsequent contraction of the United Kingdom is not as simple as the expansion of the United States. Each new country required a specific act of union. This is equivalent to a constitutional admendment in the United States. Other national parliaments were abolished to make way for Westminster. Wars were fought to establish the new states. These changes represent far more than a simple name change and a bit of new territory. The fact you underestimate the magnitude of these changes perhaps shows that we need to improve the articles. The british empire also went under radical changes in structure during the same period but did not require acts of parliment at every stage.
Another problem is that abandoning the UK of GB & I article suggests that it has less precedence than the current UK of GB & NI or the precceding Kingdom of Great Britain (got the name wrong in my earlier post). In political terms these entities are all equivalent. josh 18:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
You made my point better than I did. There is no such article as United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Should there be? Bobblewik 20:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Let us be clear. I agree that UKGBI and UKGBNI are different. I am not debating that. I seek change to Wikipedia articles because I think there are far too many articles about this. They overlap a lot. They contradict each other. Please do not assume that because I want to change to Wikipedia articles means that I do not understand the geopolitics of the region sufficiently. I assure you that the opposite is true, I care so much that I want to reduce error permutations and make link routes by reasonable editors/readers more successful. I hope we can avoid ad hominem suggestions. There are some questions that I think are relevant but have not asked:
There are *lots* of articles surrounding this issue. Multiple error permutations means that reasonable readers can't access it and reasonable editors cannot link it correctly. I am trying to persuade people to look beyond just one or two articles. Either articles should be trimmed to their own business or we should reduce error permutations by a few merges. Merge some here or elsewhere, I don't mind. Bobblewik 23:49, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As everyone has been saying clearly no merge. Re "If it is a parent article, where is the UKGBNI child article?" This is it. There is no parent article because there is no parent. This is the live existing state and so it gets the general information that features in a life state article. As is normal no longer existing states have articles on them focusing on their history and structures. I don't see what you think the UK series should be different to everywhere else.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
In answer to your points :-
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland has been expanded since this debate started and there isn't as much overlap. So to merge in the article (which still needs improvement) would create more problems than solve. I don't see what your problem is, are the servers struggling to hold that extra article. We need to increase the number of articles the History of the United Kingdom is 78K this one struggles to stay a reasonable size. josh 01:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
COMMENT: Let me clarify the situation. There is clearly opposition to the merger. HOWEVER, it was agreed that the tag would remain for 7 days after its creation, which is two days away. Several people have forced the issue on the main article - basically ignoring this agreement - and so in order to avoid a revert war the tag has been removed there. I should make it clear from my POV that the premature removal of the tag for the mail article was not necessary and broke with the agreement here on the discussion page. Nonetheless, the tag WILL remain here on the discussion page until the 7-day period has elapsed. Before that, however, please refrain from removing it, even if most of us disagree with it.
Deano 21:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Deano
22:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
The following example shows the confusion of terminology out there. Jane Seymour was described as 'British'-born and that was linked to Great Britain. Her father is described as 'British' and that was also linked to Great Britain. I edited both links to point to Britain. Although I probably should have linked them to United Kingdom.
However, another editor asserts that these are references to geography not nationality. Please see: Jane Seymour
I think they are both references to nationality. Even if they were references to geography, routine references to people born in England, Scotland or Wales should not be linked to Great Britain. I think it is similar to irrelevant ommissions of Hawaii and/or Alaska. We don't say "President Bush is contiguous United States-born". It may be true but it is bizarre.
Comments welcome. Bobblewik 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd suggest you have a disambiguation page at that point. There are different uses of the term British depending on whether you're tlaking about nationality, geography or culture. A person could have been born in Hong Kong of Chinese-Canadian parents with a British passport and consider themselves Chinese, Cantonese, Canadian or British, or all of the above. The adjective British applies in different ways for different references. JDancer 16:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
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In Detail |
I've created this infobox. Does anyone have any comments on improvements and articles/sections it could go in? I have made some compromises to simplify the box. The names used are the common terms rather than exact titles. For example, i've used Great Britain rather than Kingdom of Great Britain. I've done this to make it more obvious where the term comes from and reduce the size of the box. josh 21:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Another minor point is that Northern Ireland seems to be divided on the Kingdom of England map. josh 23:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to rain on the parade — it's certainly pretty; but it's not clickable. Isn't that a problem? Doops | talk 00:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added some improvements (although it may be a bit large and cluttered now). As to the early Ireland situation, the main use of this table would be to explain changes in the makeup of the states. The change from lordship to kingdom is less significant than the unions that it is trying to get across. I've also ignored the change of Scotland from an independant monarchy to a joint one with england. The only alternative to using British Isle would be to use Great Britain & Ireland which are also names of states possibly leading to more confusion about terms. josh 06:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Excellent diagram which makes the whole situation quite clear (the second one being better, methinks). Dates can be ironed out at a later stage, this should come into the relevant articles. Robdurbar 00:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Improved the table a bit more (I hope). Coming back to the issue of when wales ceased to be a principality. I think the key difference between Wales (post 1284) and Scotland (post 1606) was that Wales didn't have a independent pariliment. When it was conqured the king still had absolute power so a joint crown meant and joint rule were one and the same. By the time the England/Scotland/Ireland crowns were united the power had shifted to pariliment which meant it was more difficult to annex them politically. Wales (1284-1536) had some independent law making powers but that isn't too different to the Scotish legal system today. josh 01:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a very good idea - I like the table. However, it seems a little cluttered and I would be inclined to prefer a simpler table that doesn't necessarily follow time (i.e. Scotland is below England), but appears similar. I fiddled around with yours a bit and came up with this... I couldn't really manage the arrows but it gives the general idea. Deano 17:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Administratively the " Principality of Wales" was actually about 5 counties of Wales, the rest was in the Welsh Marches, along with bits of what is now England. The 1536 thingy wasn't an annexation of the "Principality of Wales" by the "Kingdom of England" but something a lot more complicated! Morwen - Talk 17:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Very useful but relevant to a British Isles poltics/government page and not so vital to a packed UK page. JDancer 16:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Why has my edit on clarifying the 2012 Olympics UK Football Team been re-edited to be far more vague? I originally wrote that though the English and N.I. FA's were for, the Scottish FA were dead-set against, and Wales having previously agreed, have stated their intention to revaluate their position.
Now it says "To which the England and Northern Ireland Football Associations have given their backing". Why has it been changed, as this seems less informative?
I'd have to disagree - The POV of every Home Nation is on record concerning this Olympics team - implication by omission might be actually correct, but why? Why not put the viewpoints of the four nations as they are, in? Surely the purpose of any Wiki article, or any article of encyclopedic origin should be to educate without having to rely on someone to assume something they aren't told. Just seems you've left it up to the reader to assume Scotland has outright rejected the proposal, and not incorrectly assume they've yet to make up their mind, or are still deciding.
Kaenei 21:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The "other" parts of this page; those in italics at the beginning of this article - are fairly biased. Where it says: "If you mean England, (Great) Britain..." - I believe that they are forgetting that there are three - yes three - other countries that make up the United Kingdom; and are blatantly ignoring them. Becuase of this, I have "hidden" the England part -- Kilo-Lima 21:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm. Izehar is right, though I've redrafted the heading section to make the policial/geographical complexities clear. I suggest thay anyone searching Wikipedia who heads for England will pretty soon realise their mistake if they were really looking for the UK, and perhaps learn a lesson in doing so. JDancer 16:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This date seems a little late to me, what about after the Hundred Years War? 66.205.108.8 02:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure on this, but if we're referring to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, surely there is no overall established state Church. Anglicanism (Church of England) for the constituent country of England, and Presbyterianism (Church of Scotland) for the constitutent country of Scotland.
Whilst I realise the Queen is Supreme Governor of the CoE, she is also a member of the CoS, and the Act of Union 1707 secures the place of the Church of Scotland in British politics and law. Shouldn't that final sentence be amended?
Kaenei
03:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Also her name and title, as when she goes to Australia, but not her allegiances. JDancer 16:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently there is a template at the foot of the article - {{ UK ties2}} - which links to templates of various organisations the UK is party to:
{{ UK ties2}}
This template is only used on this article (other than talk pages). Additionally there are two further templates which are totally unused and would appear to be test versions of this template:
Earlier this week I edited {{ UK ties2}} so it linked instead to articles rather than templates [9]. I also put {{ UK ties}} put for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:UK_ties. Doops has since removed the tfd notices and reverted my changes on {{ UK ties2}} with the comment:
Personally think the template should link to articles rather than templates and we should put all three templates up for deletion since they are either unused or single use (this article, subst content into the article).
What's everyone elses thoughts? Thanks/ wangi 14:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think a number of people will be concerned that you denote Commonwealth ties as 'historical and cultural'. Arguably, sharing the same Head of State is highly political, membership of a grouping larger than the EU or NATO very geopolitical, and the shared and diverse cultures of many UK citizens from many backgrounds more than purely historical... JDancer 16:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Over twenty three nations around the world celebrate independence days from British rule.
What does "over 23" mean? 24?, 25?, 50?, 250? This needs to be reworded to give the actual number. MRSC 13:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
According to the government's website...
English is the official language of the United Kingdom. David 22:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is 'the Government's' website. It's just a site run by a small part of the Cabinet Office to provide a database of links to other sites. Unless a source of consitutional law rules that English is 'official' it isn't. JDancer 17:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we have to have the footnotes in the infobox. There are eight of them there and IMO make the box look ugly. Can't they be moved to the bottom of the page? Izehar 16:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hving reverted an IP editing about the power of the empire in the first paragraph several times, they now seem to have decided to add a few sentences to the end of the intro instead. I've not reverted again as it would be my 5th (allowed for anti-vandalism by 3RR) and the added section seems to be in order having checked with other pages on wiki. It's also 2am here so I might be jumping a little quick thus I'll leave for someone with a clearer head.
However I am unsure about whether the IP will keep as current. I also suspect that Ouip is a new account for the person using that IP given that the revert back to the IP's version was that persons first. The IP seems to have vandalised in the past (see IP's talk page) so keep an eye out. - JVG 02:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Text moved to subpage - Robdurbar 10:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
This article had many external links, and using WP:EL as a guide I could not find basis for the vast majority of them - most are more suited to other articles (where they are already listed).
I have removed them all, leaving in place links to the UK gov portal and the main tourist site.
Can I ask that any other links be discussed here before they are added. Thanks/ wangi 17:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Rather than edit-warring over it, why don't some people provided sources for their claims as to whether this is the 4t/5th biggest economy Robdurbar 13:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick thought, but would it not be an idea to mention cricket in the Sports section?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg - shouldn't the red lines on the left be at the top not the bottom?
I was wondering what the consensus was for unviersity inclusion on this page? Personally I would only included Oxbridge (and poissibly the Unviersity of London) as these stand head nad shoulders above the others, in quality and world renoun. When other unis are include I think it starts to go too pov, as to decide between which to included and which not to. Robdurbar 13:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I thought it looked anglocentric too, but I have used the list on this page: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm for reference. We have 5 universities in the top 50 and considering the phrasing of the paragraph, I thought this was relevant.- Rednaxela 18:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As for references as a whole - this could be a future project on this page... Robdurbar 18:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Why is there an entry for 2005-06 in English football, whilst there is no equivalent entry for Scotland or Northern Ireland, or Wales? Doesn't seem very British -- Wouldn't it be better to adapt one entry for British Football which further breaks down into the respective national leagues of the home nations?
Kaenei 04:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone revert the population figure I added - presumably because it was from the CIA? If you note, the other version is a compeltely uncited one; so either I think it should be reverted to the 2001 census population or to the 2005 CIA estimate. Robdurbar 09:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for my brother's vandalism in my name of the United Kingdom page. -- Kevin Hanse (talk) 23:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
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Now let me get this right: the section on 'Terminology' is almost as long as the section on 'History'. That says it all.
A concerted effort is required to make the language plainer and to clean up the mistakes in the prose.
Perhaps a clean-up notice should be posted at the top, like this:
{{cleanup}}
Tony 12:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, especially when there is a
British Isles (terminology) page.
Robdurbar
13:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd agree too. The trouble is it gets worried at too much - it has "just growed". Why don't we just delete it from this page and refer to British Isles (terminology) (where the arguments can continue)? Mucky Duck 14:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
What is really objectionable about the Terminology section is the 'oh, these people are offended at this, and those people at that' thing. When there's a fabulously rich history to be summarising .... And the language is kinda ... quaint. Sub-Fowler, without the precision! Tony 15:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I've reduced the terminology down to the skin and bones. I think it needs to be in there because it's something that is often misunderstood outside the UK (sometimes even inside). The cleanup tag is a bit excesive. This article has enough people working on it for suggestions on the talk page to be more effective than a cleanup tag. josh 19:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the clean-up tag should go back, and I think you should have discussed removing it here before doing so. Unless you can present a convincing case that the tag will not benefit the article in the short-term, I'm restoring it.
The 'Terminology' section still needs pruning. The 'History' section needs a lot of work and should be twice as large, INV, to be in proportion. The 'Government and politics' section suffers from the same clumsy verbosity as the 'Terminology' section (which I've already had a go at before I inserted the notice). Take the first sentence of G and P:
'The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy, with executive power exercised by the Government (formally Her (His) Majesty's Government) drawn from Parliament, headed by the Prime Minister. It is one of the few countries (and the most significant) that does not have a codified constitution.'
The article is indeed well below the standard needed for FA status; but it's well above "clean-up" quality. Have you seen other pages with that tag on them? In my experience it's reserved for the seriously scurvy-ridden. This page is in the vast middle area. Doops | talk 02:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
If the sign isn't there, no one will bother to make an effort to clean it up. The UK deserves to be a major topic that Wikipedians are proud of. There is probably a high hit-rate for the article. At the moment, it's seriously deficient. Before I had a go at it, the Terminology section at the top was, frankly, pompous and poorly written. It still needs work.
This is why I posted the clean-up notice at the top. Give me one good reason that it shouldn't be restored, other than that it might embarrass a few people. Tony 07:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't it start with the Celts, the Roman occupation, and the waves of migration during the first millennium? Just one paragraph might do it. Tony 08:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I've managed to get the article down to 33Kb. The main ways iv'e done this is:-
I think it's not a bad size considering the complexity of everything in the UK (probably the only country in the world that has to explain what it is first). I think the size of the info box needs to be reduced as well. The names could go in another article and then be referenced. josh 20:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes it's a Unitary state but the first sentance should use the most common desciption. It could also be called a kingdom, commonwealth realm, union, member of the UN security council etc. Every other country is called a country in the first sentance the UK shouldn't be any different.unsigned
The UK is different. Unlike other entities it is not a country but an amalgam of countries, all of which have retained a separate sense of national identity, unlike in Germany, for example, where a separate country identity does not exist in the lander, even though they once were themselves separate countries (pace Bavaria.) Indeed within Wales and in particular in England and Scotland there is a separate sense of national identity and separateness from the other countries in the UK that is not found in say US or German states, or in the regions of Italy. So to call the UK a country is at best POV. In the views of many in the various countries within the UK, it is factually wrong and demotes their countries to mere regions, something they clearly are not.
The UK is a state. It is standard where one is talking about federal or confederal states to refer to them as a federal state or a conferation. The UK however belongs to the third category in that definition tree: a unitary state, a single state governed from the centre but where the centre has given (ie, in home rule) or could give, certain governmental powers to subsidary units that owe their legal existence to the whims of the centre and can be abolished at will (ie, they have no constitutional right to exist in their own right). So just as it is normal to call a federal state by that name, especially if it is not a country but is a federation countries, so it is standard to refer to a single state containing countries but in which all power theoretically resides in the centre as a unitary state.
Calling the UK a "country" in this article makes the article a joke. For one thing a country cannot have countries in it. But then as this article shows, whomever defined the categories here doesn't seem to know such elementary facts as the difference between states, nations and countries. They are different things. Calling the UK a country is constitutionally illiterate.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
By your definition half wikipedia is wrong. Along with the UN [1], the EUhttp://europe.eu.int/abc/governments/index_en.htm, the IMF [2] and any other institution that seems to wrongly believe the UK is a country. In the country article it is given a definition of any independent political entity. It goes on to describe a state as a subdivision of the country. josh 00:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, some people have different understandings of the word country. But encyclopædias need to be precise. Accuracy is a fundamental requirement in an encyclopædia. That is why we don't call Queen Elizabeth the "Queen of England". An encylopædia's need for accuracy means that we have to define her title strictly and accurately. Similarly we don't call the Republic of Ireland the "Irish Republic", even though some elements of the media do, because it is not correct. The Irish Republic actually was the title of the 1919-1922 UDI Irish state. Accurately is a fundamental requirment is a project like this, not merely something that sounds kinda right-ish. Unitary state is the best option. It is
Country means everything and nothing. A historian, a political scientist, a school-kid, an academic, and ordinary person in the street, may well mean different things when they use the word. That some of ambiguity is not something an encyclopædia should have, certainly not in an article on the UK, when there are already nations within the UK that also describe themselves as countries. People should be able to read the article and know exactly what we mean, not read the article and be confused wondering "which definition do they mean", "what do they mean by that?" Or even worse, "but isn't Scotland a country too? How can you have a country in a country? I'm confused."
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
16:53, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem is while people still understand what Republic of Ireland means, the majority won't understand the meaning of unitary state. They will instantly percive it as some obscure political system. unitary state is:
Country is a standard term. Look at any UN, IMF, World Bank, EU website/document and the UK comes under the list of countries. Saying that country cannot contain another country is like saying a company cannot contain another company. It's the job of the England, Scotland, Wales articles to point out that they are not an officially reconised country (as they already do). Specifying exactly what the UK is is the job of the body of the article. The first sentance establishes the general category. Using the term unitary state it elitest and harks back to the days when scholers used obscure terms to keep knowledge away from the masses. josh 17:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
They are not writing encyclopædias. An encyclopædia is in effect a factual dictionary that has at its basis absolute factual accuracy. WB, IMF, UN documents are not definitionary but explorative and discursive. The explore and inform, with a presumption that definitions are contained in encyclopædias. If you think unitary state is elitist you clearly don't under what either a unitary state is or the term elitist means. It is a standard term understood by millions. Country is an ambiguous term with any number of meanings and lacks the specificality required in encyclopædias, particularly in the context of a state containing what many people believe are countries. Your claim that England, Scotland and Wales each are "not an officially reconised (sic) country" proves that you don't understand what a country is. A "country" is not "recognised" officially. A state is what requires recognition.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
18:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
If unitary state is a term reconised by millions then how come i've never heard of it before. Even from my best friend at uni who did a politics degree never used the term. The term country is only ambiguous because of a few cases where a country isn't a country. If you state that the UK is a unitary state at the top of the article then some people will reading the rest of the article trying to understand what you mean by unitary state. Definition is the job of an encyclopedia but that doesn't mean you have to try and do an exact definition within the first sentence. In the case of the UK that would be impossible. It should clearly define the subject area using terms that as many people as possible understand. If I didn't understand the meaning of unitary state despite living in one for 8 years then what chance has someone who has never been anywhere near one got of understanding that first sentance. josh 18:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
If your friend doesn't understand unitary state then he should sue his university. It is a bit like someone studying how to build a car not knowing what an engine is! You obviously don't know that Wikipedia uses thinks called links to bring people to other articles. Try hitting the link. You'll find there is an entire article there on
unitary state.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
18:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Countries generally have a head of state, some sort of parliament (for democracies), representation in the UN, passports with the country's name on it, postage stamps, a judiciary and they are usually able to sign international treaties. I realise there are several exceptions that are missing one or two of these, but on the vast majority of countries have most of them. England doesn't but the UK does. Dmn € Դմն 18:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say she didn't understand it just that she never used the term. It's more like someone learning how to build a car but not refering to them as 2.5 litre V6 etc. The reader shouldn't be forced to use a link if there is a clearer way of defining something. Even if they use the link there may be some confusion over why we choose to use the term rather simply calling it a country. Pehaps we can leave the first sentence as it stands but add a second saying More specificly it is refered to as a unitary state or constitutional monarchy. That way there is no confusion over what the UK is but the reader may be aroused into finding out what these terms mean (if they don't already know) and get a better overall picture. josh 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
To quote Jtdirl: An encyclopædia is in effect a factual dictionary that has at its basis absolute factual accuracy. For an amusing thought-experiment, go through the any paragraph of this or any encyclopedia and try to bring it in line with that standard. Just as an example, here's a revised "unitary state" version of this article's first sentence: "The UK of GB and NI is the name given to a region of the world by the government under whose de facto control it is run — a government recognized by the UN and many other states as being the legitimate de jure authority there and which bears the characteristics of a unitary state — and to the collective polity formed by certain inhabitants thereof." Doops | talk 20:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Note Banned user
Skyring has been waging an edit war on this page using IP. Once identity established edit reverted. Keep an eye out for suspicious edits. Having targeted other pages for edit wars he has obviously targeted this one now also.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This is not a particularly balanced discussion. The UK is a country with three nations and one province. It's constitutional form is a constitutional monarchy with a unitary system. It's likely that Jtdirl is resisting the consensus here as a result of a (quite obvious) political POV. I've reviewed Wikipedia standards and provide a sample of opening sentences:
"France is a Western European country, with a number of overseas possessions. ... The French Republic (French: République française) is a democracy organised as a unitary semi-presidential republic."
"Germany, officially the Federal Republic of Germany (German: Deutschland or Bundesrepublik Deutschland listen ▶(?)) is one of the world's leading industrialised countries, located in Europe."
"The United States of America is a federal democratic republic situated primarily in North America."
"South Korea, officially the Republic of Korea, is a country located in East Asia, in the southern half of the Korean Peninsula. To the north, it is bordered by North Korea, with which it formed a single nation until 1948."
"The Republic of Serbia (Serbian: Република Србија) is a republic in south-eastern Europe which is united with Montenegro in a loose commonwealth known as the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro."
"The Republic of Kenya, or Kenya (IPA: /ˈkɛnjə/), is a country in East Africa."
"The Union of Myanmar, (also known as the Union of Burma), is the largest country (in geographical area) in mainland Southeast Asia."
"Barbados is an island nation located towards the east of the Caribbean Sea and in the west of the Atlantic Ocean".
Jtdirl would have each of these start, 'Such-and-such is a state in such-and-such a place'. That would obscure relevant detail and is just poor drafting. Were there a valid reason for do so, we would consider it. But there is not. We need to refer to the UK as either a country located off the north-western coast of continental Europe, and as a constitutional monarchy with a unitary state and four home nations (three consituent countries and the province of NI). I've amended the article and await a solid argument to revert should one appear. The better drafting also makes the terminology section redundant. I've also expaneded the sections on Welsh/Scottish devolution to encompass broader nationalist/unionist tendencies and pressures. All NPOV and I welcome sensible edits. JDancer 14:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Rednaxela 23:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The Scotland Portal is now up and running. It is a project in the early stages of development, but I think it could be a very useful resource indeed, perhaps more for general readers (the vast majority I presume), rather than committed editors, who may be more attracted by the great possibilities of the notice board format: Wikipedia:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board.
Give it a Watch, and lend a hand if you can. It is (hopefully) fairly low-maintenance, but if we run with the "News" section, that will take dedication: time which I cannot commit to presently myself. Most other boxes need replacment/update only weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, plus the occasional refreshment of the Scotland-related categories. Anyway, I assume this is how the other Portals are run, so we can follow their lead.
Please add the following code - {{portal|Scotland}} - to your own User page, and you will have the link to the portal right there for easy access. I will investigate how other portals use shortcuts too.
Assistance from Wikipedians in the rest of the UK, and indeed everywhere, would be greatly appreciated!-- Mais oui! 08:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Well given that London is the greatest city on Earth and the most wikilinked city on Wikipedia, it seems ridiculous that Bucharest had its own portal and London did not. So I made one. And made a right hash of it too. But anyway after figuring out how the boxes worked and after having about 4 hours work evaporate when Wikipedia crashed as I clicked "Save", it looks half decent. I've got some people from WikiProject:London helping, but not many of us have worked portals before...
Anyway, the Scots got their portal up and running so we Southerners were never going to be far behind. Ditto everything they said! Any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Deano 21:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I have added the following about Cornwall:
"In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [3] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the Cornish identity and constitutional status of Cornwall." Bretagne 44 19:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The page was getting seriously large so I took the liberty of archiving a chunk. Hope I haven't annoyed anyone too much... I kept the most recent stuff... Deano 19:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
It is, I know, customary to regard the UK as lacking a constitution and, instead, muddling along on convention. (This approach incidentally makes calling the country a constitutional monarchy inappropriate.) However, is it not important to acknowledge (a) the position of the crown and (b) the significance of the UK's ratification of various European treaties?
In the UK, as I understand things, sovereignty lies not with the people but with the crown, and it is the crown which governs. This suggests something very concrete in terms of the country's very essence. Things may look messy if you expect its government to be vested in a document such as a constitution, but one cannot doubt the significance of the crown nor dismiss it as mere convention. Perhaps one may say that the UK has a constitution, but it is significantly manifested in flesh and blood rather than writing.
On the EU matter, I understand that some believe that the UK's base-law is actually the various EU treaties, such as those of Maastricht and Nice, and, indeed, that, on certain matters at least, its highest court is not the house of lords but a court in continental Europe. This is a different view from one which would portray the UK as a country which gets by on tradition, in which parliament is sovereign, and which is a democracy presided over by a monarch. Also, the human rights act is written in quasi-constitutional terms and recently-passed legislation would allow the crown to suspend all rights except that act.
www.danon.co.uk
Afraid its not that simple - the sovereign is the 'crown in parliament'? says it somewhere in the article i think.
It is also true that the EU court is, in many cases, the highest court. However, the article does not (I think) claim the UK has constitution; more that it does not have a 'codified constitution' Robdurbar 18:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
N.B.
Mercator produced CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") in 1564: [4] [5]
Sebastian Munster produced maps depicting Cornwall as a distinct region of Britain in 1538, 1540, and 1550. [6]
George Lily produced a map showing Cornubia in 1556.
Girolamo Ruscelli did the same in 1561 portraying Cornubia alongside Anglia, Wallia and Scotia.
Johannes Honter followed this trend in 1561.
Humphrey Lhuyd and Abraham Ortelius produced Angliae Regni Florentissimi Nova Descripto in 1573, this showed Cornwall and Wales as distinct regions of England, however Cornwall was not portrayed as an English county. This map was re used in 1595 at about the same time that Norden produced the map of the Duchy (not county) of Cornwall.
From about 1600 things change the Mare Brittanica and the Celtic sea become the English Channel and Bristol/St Georges Channel respectively. At this time Cornwall also seems to become an English county. Why, there is no record of an act of union or annexation of Cornwall?
Bretagne 44 16:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
REX you really have trouble keeping up at times don't you? This is the start of an investigation into the change that occurred at this time (1600) which resulted in the general view of Cornwall being revised from country to county. It happened at the same time as a number of other changes in the way the British Isles where portrayed and I think this change is relevant to Cornish, English, British and UK pages on Wikipedia. It was a radical change that the establishment brought about in the way all Britons perceived their land.
Bretagne 44 20:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I fully appreciate your wish to campaign for Cornish rights, Bretagne, but Wikipedia is not the place to do that. Stop POVing articles as part of your campaign. There are plenty of places where POV campaigning is fine. Wikipedia is not one of them. FearÉIREANN 00:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The list of maps are completely pointless. Here's a more complete list. The majority list cornwall as part of england. The 1654 mercator map was actually produced by John Elder on the website it states that
In fact a later mercator map lists cornwall alongside the other counties. Maps are not offical documents but refect the opinion of the author. The only map authorised by Queen Elizibeth shows cornwall as part of England [7]. Please stop twisting the facts to fit your opinion. josh 20:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
When did Cornwall become part of England and whre is the documentation, we are agreed that it was a country, when was it annexed? Why is it a straw man? Bretagne 44 16:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
All very fascinating. I've noted a resurgence in Cornish culture and language as part of an expanded para on nationalist/unionist tendencies. In an already packed section, no further reference to Cornwall is justified.
JDancer
15:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This article could merge content from 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'.
There is not much to say about the distinction, it is mostly duplicated in both articles. The current arrangement of two articles adds little value and adds complexity i.e. instead of one permutation for linking a reference to United Kingdom, we have four (2 correct and 2 incorrect). In most cases where editors refer to events or history of the country, the distinction is not relevant.
The issues are not complicated. We don't make such a big deal out of it with other nations. Bobblewik 16:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
If it is not a question of principle but of size, we can debate size. See:
So the question of size is about whether a merged article can be a few sentences longer. Bobblewik 10:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - the two articles should be kept separate - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland is a distinct historical entity. (noticed this on WP:RfC). Thanks/ wangi 12:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
The expansion and subsequent contraction of the United Kingdom is not as simple as the expansion of the United States. Each new country required a specific act of union. This is equivalent to a constitutional admendment in the United States. Other national parliaments were abolished to make way for Westminster. Wars were fought to establish the new states. These changes represent far more than a simple name change and a bit of new territory. The fact you underestimate the magnitude of these changes perhaps shows that we need to improve the articles. The british empire also went under radical changes in structure during the same period but did not require acts of parliment at every stage.
Another problem is that abandoning the UK of GB & I article suggests that it has less precedence than the current UK of GB & NI or the precceding Kingdom of Great Britain (got the name wrong in my earlier post). In political terms these entities are all equivalent. josh 18:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
You made my point better than I did. There is no such article as United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Should there be? Bobblewik 20:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Let us be clear. I agree that UKGBI and UKGBNI are different. I am not debating that. I seek change to Wikipedia articles because I think there are far too many articles about this. They overlap a lot. They contradict each other. Please do not assume that because I want to change to Wikipedia articles means that I do not understand the geopolitics of the region sufficiently. I assure you that the opposite is true, I care so much that I want to reduce error permutations and make link routes by reasonable editors/readers more successful. I hope we can avoid ad hominem suggestions. There are some questions that I think are relevant but have not asked:
There are *lots* of articles surrounding this issue. Multiple error permutations means that reasonable readers can't access it and reasonable editors cannot link it correctly. I am trying to persuade people to look beyond just one or two articles. Either articles should be trimmed to their own business or we should reduce error permutations by a few merges. Merge some here or elsewhere, I don't mind. Bobblewik 23:49, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As everyone has been saying clearly no merge. Re "If it is a parent article, where is the UKGBNI child article?" This is it. There is no parent article because there is no parent. This is the live existing state and so it gets the general information that features in a life state article. As is normal no longer existing states have articles on them focusing on their history and structures. I don't see what you think the UK series should be different to everywhere else.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
In answer to your points :-
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland has been expanded since this debate started and there isn't as much overlap. So to merge in the article (which still needs improvement) would create more problems than solve. I don't see what your problem is, are the servers struggling to hold that extra article. We need to increase the number of articles the History of the United Kingdom is 78K this one struggles to stay a reasonable size. josh 01:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
COMMENT: Let me clarify the situation. There is clearly opposition to the merger. HOWEVER, it was agreed that the tag would remain for 7 days after its creation, which is two days away. Several people have forced the issue on the main article - basically ignoring this agreement - and so in order to avoid a revert war the tag has been removed there. I should make it clear from my POV that the premature removal of the tag for the mail article was not necessary and broke with the agreement here on the discussion page. Nonetheless, the tag WILL remain here on the discussion page until the 7-day period has elapsed. Before that, however, please refrain from removing it, even if most of us disagree with it.
Deano 21:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Deano
22:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
The following example shows the confusion of terminology out there. Jane Seymour was described as 'British'-born and that was linked to Great Britain. Her father is described as 'British' and that was also linked to Great Britain. I edited both links to point to Britain. Although I probably should have linked them to United Kingdom.
However, another editor asserts that these are references to geography not nationality. Please see: Jane Seymour
I think they are both references to nationality. Even if they were references to geography, routine references to people born in England, Scotland or Wales should not be linked to Great Britain. I think it is similar to irrelevant ommissions of Hawaii and/or Alaska. We don't say "President Bush is contiguous United States-born". It may be true but it is bizarre.
Comments welcome. Bobblewik 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd suggest you have a disambiguation page at that point. There are different uses of the term British depending on whether you're tlaking about nationality, geography or culture. A person could have been born in Hong Kong of Chinese-Canadian parents with a British passport and consider themselves Chinese, Cantonese, Canadian or British, or all of the above. The adjective British applies in different ways for different references. JDancer 16:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
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In Detail |
I've created this infobox. Does anyone have any comments on improvements and articles/sections it could go in? I have made some compromises to simplify the box. The names used are the common terms rather than exact titles. For example, i've used Great Britain rather than Kingdom of Great Britain. I've done this to make it more obvious where the term comes from and reduce the size of the box. josh 21:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Another minor point is that Northern Ireland seems to be divided on the Kingdom of England map. josh 23:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to rain on the parade — it's certainly pretty; but it's not clickable. Isn't that a problem? Doops | talk 00:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added some improvements (although it may be a bit large and cluttered now). As to the early Ireland situation, the main use of this table would be to explain changes in the makeup of the states. The change from lordship to kingdom is less significant than the unions that it is trying to get across. I've also ignored the change of Scotland from an independant monarchy to a joint one with england. The only alternative to using British Isle would be to use Great Britain & Ireland which are also names of states possibly leading to more confusion about terms. josh 06:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Excellent diagram which makes the whole situation quite clear (the second one being better, methinks). Dates can be ironed out at a later stage, this should come into the relevant articles. Robdurbar 00:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Improved the table a bit more (I hope). Coming back to the issue of when wales ceased to be a principality. I think the key difference between Wales (post 1284) and Scotland (post 1606) was that Wales didn't have a independent pariliment. When it was conqured the king still had absolute power so a joint crown meant and joint rule were one and the same. By the time the England/Scotland/Ireland crowns were united the power had shifted to pariliment which meant it was more difficult to annex them politically. Wales (1284-1536) had some independent law making powers but that isn't too different to the Scotish legal system today. josh 01:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a very good idea - I like the table. However, it seems a little cluttered and I would be inclined to prefer a simpler table that doesn't necessarily follow time (i.e. Scotland is below England), but appears similar. I fiddled around with yours a bit and came up with this... I couldn't really manage the arrows but it gives the general idea. Deano 17:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Administratively the " Principality of Wales" was actually about 5 counties of Wales, the rest was in the Welsh Marches, along with bits of what is now England. The 1536 thingy wasn't an annexation of the "Principality of Wales" by the "Kingdom of England" but something a lot more complicated! Morwen - Talk 17:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Very useful but relevant to a British Isles poltics/government page and not so vital to a packed UK page. JDancer 16:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Why has my edit on clarifying the 2012 Olympics UK Football Team been re-edited to be far more vague? I originally wrote that though the English and N.I. FA's were for, the Scottish FA were dead-set against, and Wales having previously agreed, have stated their intention to revaluate their position.
Now it says "To which the England and Northern Ireland Football Associations have given their backing". Why has it been changed, as this seems less informative?
I'd have to disagree - The POV of every Home Nation is on record concerning this Olympics team - implication by omission might be actually correct, but why? Why not put the viewpoints of the four nations as they are, in? Surely the purpose of any Wiki article, or any article of encyclopedic origin should be to educate without having to rely on someone to assume something they aren't told. Just seems you've left it up to the reader to assume Scotland has outright rejected the proposal, and not incorrectly assume they've yet to make up their mind, or are still deciding.
Kaenei 21:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The "other" parts of this page; those in italics at the beginning of this article - are fairly biased. Where it says: "If you mean England, (Great) Britain..." - I believe that they are forgetting that there are three - yes three - other countries that make up the United Kingdom; and are blatantly ignoring them. Becuase of this, I have "hidden" the England part -- Kilo-Lima 21:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm. Izehar is right, though I've redrafted the heading section to make the policial/geographical complexities clear. I suggest thay anyone searching Wikipedia who heads for England will pretty soon realise their mistake if they were really looking for the UK, and perhaps learn a lesson in doing so. JDancer 16:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This date seems a little late to me, what about after the Hundred Years War? 66.205.108.8 02:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure on this, but if we're referring to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, surely there is no overall established state Church. Anglicanism (Church of England) for the constituent country of England, and Presbyterianism (Church of Scotland) for the constitutent country of Scotland.
Whilst I realise the Queen is Supreme Governor of the CoE, she is also a member of the CoS, and the Act of Union 1707 secures the place of the Church of Scotland in British politics and law. Shouldn't that final sentence be amended?
Kaenei
03:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Also her name and title, as when she goes to Australia, but not her allegiances. JDancer 16:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently there is a template at the foot of the article - {{ UK ties2}} - which links to templates of various organisations the UK is party to:
{{ UK ties2}}
This template is only used on this article (other than talk pages). Additionally there are two further templates which are totally unused and would appear to be test versions of this template:
Earlier this week I edited {{ UK ties2}} so it linked instead to articles rather than templates [9]. I also put {{ UK ties}} put for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:UK_ties. Doops has since removed the tfd notices and reverted my changes on {{ UK ties2}} with the comment:
Personally think the template should link to articles rather than templates and we should put all three templates up for deletion since they are either unused or single use (this article, subst content into the article).
What's everyone elses thoughts? Thanks/ wangi 14:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think a number of people will be concerned that you denote Commonwealth ties as 'historical and cultural'. Arguably, sharing the same Head of State is highly political, membership of a grouping larger than the EU or NATO very geopolitical, and the shared and diverse cultures of many UK citizens from many backgrounds more than purely historical... JDancer 16:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Over twenty three nations around the world celebrate independence days from British rule.
What does "over 23" mean? 24?, 25?, 50?, 250? This needs to be reworded to give the actual number. MRSC 13:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
According to the government's website...
English is the official language of the United Kingdom. David 22:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is 'the Government's' website. It's just a site run by a small part of the Cabinet Office to provide a database of links to other sites. Unless a source of consitutional law rules that English is 'official' it isn't. JDancer 17:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we have to have the footnotes in the infobox. There are eight of them there and IMO make the box look ugly. Can't they be moved to the bottom of the page? Izehar 16:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hving reverted an IP editing about the power of the empire in the first paragraph several times, they now seem to have decided to add a few sentences to the end of the intro instead. I've not reverted again as it would be my 5th (allowed for anti-vandalism by 3RR) and the added section seems to be in order having checked with other pages on wiki. It's also 2am here so I might be jumping a little quick thus I'll leave for someone with a clearer head.
However I am unsure about whether the IP will keep as current. I also suspect that Ouip is a new account for the person using that IP given that the revert back to the IP's version was that persons first. The IP seems to have vandalised in the past (see IP's talk page) so keep an eye out. - JVG 02:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Text moved to subpage - Robdurbar 10:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
This article had many external links, and using WP:EL as a guide I could not find basis for the vast majority of them - most are more suited to other articles (where they are already listed).
I have removed them all, leaving in place links to the UK gov portal and the main tourist site.
Can I ask that any other links be discussed here before they are added. Thanks/ wangi 17:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Rather than edit-warring over it, why don't some people provided sources for their claims as to whether this is the 4t/5th biggest economy Robdurbar 13:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick thought, but would it not be an idea to mention cricket in the Sports section?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg - shouldn't the red lines on the left be at the top not the bottom?
I was wondering what the consensus was for unviersity inclusion on this page? Personally I would only included Oxbridge (and poissibly the Unviersity of London) as these stand head nad shoulders above the others, in quality and world renoun. When other unis are include I think it starts to go too pov, as to decide between which to included and which not to. Robdurbar 13:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I thought it looked anglocentric too, but I have used the list on this page: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm for reference. We have 5 universities in the top 50 and considering the phrasing of the paragraph, I thought this was relevant.- Rednaxela 18:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As for references as a whole - this could be a future project on this page... Robdurbar 18:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Why is there an entry for 2005-06 in English football, whilst there is no equivalent entry for Scotland or Northern Ireland, or Wales? Doesn't seem very British -- Wouldn't it be better to adapt one entry for British Football which further breaks down into the respective national leagues of the home nations?
Kaenei 04:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone revert the population figure I added - presumably because it was from the CIA? If you note, the other version is a compeltely uncited one; so either I think it should be reverted to the 2001 census population or to the 2005 CIA estimate. Robdurbar 09:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for my brother's vandalism in my name of the United Kingdom page. -- Kevin Hanse (talk) 23:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)