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I think the UK template should stay at the bottom of this article. Does anyone also not think that all the colours make it look very pretty? Jiang does not think it should be there. The main reason I think it should be there (apart from the prettyness of course!) is the unique status of the UK being a country consisting of other countries! Therefore I think it is important to have bolder links to each of the UK parts at the bottom. Comments please.
I would have thought it was up to the person advocating the removal of an obviously relevant template to offer some justification for its removal. It is rather perverse to demand that people justify an obviously justifiable template. But since you set this ridiculous demand here's the answer:
Therefore it makes elementary common sense to have a template showing to those who don't know the relationship between the UK and what are in effect its political and cultural subsets, Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. I fail to see how this could even be an issue for debate as it is so self-evidently a good idea, that of creating a template that can bring certain linked articles together as an easily accessible set. In fact this idea should be used for other states that are of a unitary nature but which consist of a number of countries, federal states and confederal states. FearÉIREANN 00:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Considering England has no head of state, no passport, no parliament, no seat in the United Nations, no national broadcaster, hasn't signed any treaties in over 300 years, no judicial system of its own, I don't understand why it is still called a country by some. My passport says my country is the United Kingdom. England died in the Act of Union along with Scotland & Wales ceased to be a country long before then. Dmn / Դմն 16:44, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think Cornwall and the Cornish merit being viewed as a constituent people and nation of the UK for the following reasons.
"Another point is the Brick Wall test. If you built a brick wall and cut off any area of the UK, could it survive as a separate nation? I doubt Cornwall could, neither could Lincoln shire!!! Yes they were a nation, yes they are a distinct"
"there is also a popular and an academic debate as to whether the Cornish are a constituent people of the UK and could be considered a Nation"
"They reflect the generally accepted consensus and report it"
"Nowhere legally in the definition of the kingdom is there such an entity and a 'nation' called Cornwall"
"Encyclopaedias can only deal with facts"
"If you want to write to promote the concept of a Cornish nation"
"If it is only at the debate stage then its outcome cannot be stated as fact"
"Please grasp what an encyclopaedia can and cannot do"
I have made the following changes on the devolution section. The part in bold is the new addition, the rest was there before:
There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation. A movement to obtain some degree of home rule also exists in Cornwall, a petition of over 50000 signatures was collected endorsing the call for a Cornish Assembly however the UK government is not known to be considering any form of devolution to Cornwall Bretagne 44 21/4/05
If the guy wants to put in POV that says 'a group of cornish men still consider themselves a separate nation' then I dont see why not. The fact some people disagree is irrelevant. There is the constant battle on Wikipedia about NPOV. 'The cornish consider themselves a separate nation whereas politically and economically they are not' is a perfectly valid POV. Put a para in, I say.
Lincolnshire Poacher
I reverted to my version, because:
1. The phrase "There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation." is grossly inaccurate. Very few people outside Cornwall are aware, let alone care about the 'debate'. I've seen no evidence that Cornwall's constitutional status has been widely debated, or at all, in academia. Provide substantial evidence if you believe that is true.
2. My version is 43 words, and the other is 69. I believe that on a page about the UK in general, 69 words is far too much to devote to Cornish nationalism. Perhaps that amount would be appropriate for Politics of the United Kingdom, but certainly not United Kingdom. It is inherently POV to give so much space to a movement with only 50,000 signatures endorsing it, considering their is no mention of significant topics like the Labour Party, Conservative Party, Lib Dems, UKIP, Green Party, BNP (and EU membership) - all of which have receive far more support (in terms of votes) than Cornish nationalism.
I propose that Cornish nationalism be allocated one sentence in this article, and two sentences in the Politics of the United Kingdom, to reflect its importance in the context of the UK. There are far more important topics which should be mentioned. Deus Ex 21:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've reduced the mention of Cornwall to one sentence. This article's long enough already, after I added information about political parties which was previously omitted. The relevance of Cornish nationalism to an article about the entire UK is too small to have more than a single sentence. Deus Ex 11:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
DeusEx you wrote:
The phrase "There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation." is grossly inaccurate.
1) the debate concerning the Cornish national identity and its place in the framework of the peoples of the UK.
2) the debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall.
I have modified your changes. Bretagne 44 7/5/05
Given the links you provide, I accept there is some interest about Cornish national identity and the constitutional status of Cornwall, but I still believe that the original length of the reference to Cornish nationalism was too long. The current length is acceptable, but should not be any longer. It would be more worthwhile to talk about other topics-like UK minor parties, such as the BNP, UKIP, Green Party and Northern Irish parties than have far more followers in terms of votes at the last election than discussion of Cornwall at any more length than the current reference.The politics section could also talk about the UK's relationship with the EU, which is not mentioned in the politics section at all. Space is not unlimited on this page, it is currently at 39 kilobytes in length.By the way, I would prefer If you used your user account to make changes to the United Kingdom and other pages, rather than an anon IP which gives the impression of surreptitious editing. Deus Ex 17:22, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The current length is acceptable It is not your position to say what is or is not acceptable but to come to a consensus, that is unless you want to sound arrogant? It is not your position to say what is acceptable so please think about what you are doing here.
I would prefer If you used your user account to make changes to the United Kingdom and other pages, rather than an anon IP which gives the impression of surreptitious editing
Really. Bretagne 44 16/5/05
It's Cornish nationalists that are arrogant if they think their issue is of high importance in the UK nationally. I didn't simply say the current length was acceptable just because I as a person thought it was, I gave reasons which you have not responded to. Northern Irish politics, minor UK parties, the EU, human rights, terrorism, and probably many other UK politics topics receive much more national attention than Cornish politics-you only have to watch national news TV programmes or read national newspapers to know that. The UK government has paid little/no attention to Cornish politics and the call for a devolved assembly. I'm not saying Cornish politics receive no national coverage at all, but those other topics individually receive more attention. NI and minor UK political parties like Green, UKIP, receive far more votes than Cornish political parties-so why should we omit them and go into an extended discussion about Cornwall. That is why I don't think its appropriate to make the current mention of Cornwall any longer-because this page is 39k already, and those other topics are more important.
I'm sure you won't accept this, but Wikipedia's coverage of Cornwall's identity/constitutional question is generous already. On Britannica for example, there is no mention of Cornish politics in their United Kingdom article, even though there is a large paragraph on "regional government". Also, there is no mention of Cornish identity/constitutional question in their Cornwall article, and the Wikipedia article, Cornish nationalism is mentioned immediately in the first paragraph. Deus Ex 11:07, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
No but it is of importance in a section about national and regional devolution.
So you think these should be covered in a section on regional parliaments and government?
So that makes it OK then does it? That means the petition should not be mentioned does it? Why does'nt Wikipedia just copy the UK news and Britannica, save a lot of time and please all the ultra unionist bigots at the same time.
That's because they are UK wide parties. Where is there mention of Mebyon Kernow on this UK page? Again should they be in a sectiuon on devolution and national parliaments?
Yawn, in the section about devolution and regional government i killed two birds with one stone saving a lot of space. I described the desire for devolution to Cornwall which is worthy of mention and also described the debate about whether or not the Cornish are one of the constituent nations of the UK and how this relates to the Assembly issue. Now you for what ever reason don't like this or don't think it worthy of mention but i would ask you why?
Britannica Britannica shmitannica!
Here is another link to the discussion on Cornish identity within the UK [2] Bretagne 44 18/5/05
It's of very low importance in the UK as a whole, and of low importance in comparison to other regional movements. The nationalist movements in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are much larger, polling at least 45x more votes (at the 2005 election).
No, I think these should be covered in the "Government and Politics" section of the United Kingdom article. As I have said multiple times before, there is not space for large coverage of every minor facet of UK politics on the United Kingdom article. The regional parliaments and government subsection does not need to be any larger than it currently is, it covers the topic adequately. However, other subsections of the United Kingdom require expansion, and it is more important to expand these than talk any further above Cornwall.
There needs to be a way of measuring the extent/popularity of a movement or political party. It might be measuring the number of votes in an recent election, the coverage in the national media, the attention government has given it. You seem to be suggesting giving coverage to Cornwall just because you feel it is important. So what if you think the media/govt/public is against Cornish nationalism-the point is that its is not important to UK national politics or regional politics in any measurable or perceivable way. 50,000 signatures for the petition is a very small amount compared with the population of Cornwall (10x that) or compared with the number of voters that took part with the Scottish/Welsh/NI referendums on devolution, or compared with the number of voters that vote for nationalist political parties in those nations. Here's a radical idea-the media/govt/UK public/Britannica editors are not indifferent/against Cornish nationalists/devolutionists because they are "bigots" or part of a vast conspiracy against Cornwall, it is because it is a movement that polls insignificant amounts of votes at elections, and according to its own petitions, less than 10% of the Cornish public support.
Exactly my point. There isn't space on this page to talk about regional political parties that poll miniscule numbers of votes. Only UK parties and nationalist parties like SNP, PC, SF which poll substantial numbers of votes are worthy of note. Mebyon Kernow received 3,552 votes at the last election-less than fringe parties like the Legalise Cannabis Alliance, and in comparison to another regional parties, 49 times less votes than Plaid Cymru. Mebyon Kernow is not relevant to a section on UK parties, or a section or regional parties-it polls far to few votes. If someone started an independence for the Isle Wight political party which polled 3,552 votes, it wouldn't be notable either. If Mebyon Kernow polled say 30% of the Cornwall population, then it would obviously be worthy of note.
I don't care if you keep the petition info, even though I don't think that petitions that represent less than 10% of the population are worthy of inclusion. What I would oppose is if the info on Cornwall was expanded anymore than its current size, for the reasons I have mentioned above. If there is any reason to expand the regional politics section, then it should be to talk more in depth about NI/Scottish/Welsh politics, not Cornwall, which is already adequately covered for an article about the entire United Kingdom. There is already a link to Constitutional status of Cornwall, which is enough about the academic issue. Deus Ex 22:46, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
No, it is important because it is fundamental to the nature of the UK and the makeup of the British people. It is a debate about what are the constituent peoples of the UK plus the related subjects of devolution and nationalism. For some reason this is not important for you, why? On the UK page there should be a section on the subject of what is the UK, is it a nation or a collection of nations, and in this section the Cornish and their Duchy should be mentioned. This is not the case however my original edit summed up both points.
To compare a petition gathered by volunteers as opposed to a nationwide referendum organised by government is spurious in the extreme and makes me question your motivation.
In addition to the petition there are two opinion poles that put support for a Cornish assembly at over 50%, the work of the Cornish Constitutional Convention and the fact that the whole Duchy is Lib Dem, a party that supports devolution to Kernow.
These are just the votes for candidates in the general election, however if you add the votes for the Council elections in constituencies that MK did not field a candidate for the general the number is closer to 10000.
I think there is a degree of conspiracy to undermine the Cornish national identity and change the nature and history of the Duchy, however in this instance I was referring to certain users of the internet.
Bretagne 44 19/5/05
How about replacing the current text with this then, if you wish to show that there is 1. a popular movement 2. an academic debate. There is no need to mention the petition explicitly-just provide a link:
"In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [6] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall." Deus Ex 17:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
How about: "In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [7] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the Cornish identity and constitutional status of Cornwall." Bretagne 44 20/5/05
Done. Deus Ex 18:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Three of these parts—England, Wales and Scotland—are located on the island of Great Britain and are often considered nations in their own right. WTF!!!
England as a nation has been in existence since AT LEAST 1500 AD see http://east_west_dialogue.tripod.com/europe/id5.html or even further, see http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/E/En/English_nation.htm and also http://www.englishindependenceparty.com/window.htm
Its also a valid argument to say that Magna Carta was the first legal cornerstone of the English nation, and therefore the English Nation is at least 800 years old. You could even say the English started when the Romans mixed with the Brigantes in 56 AD, followed by the Saxons, Danes and Vikings, and then the Normans, so the English were formed per se by 1086. So i object to this line, and propose to remove or edit it.
Ill tackle the subject of the meaningless phrase 'Great Britain' when weve sorted this one.
Anyone object?
Lincolnshire Poacher 21:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Great Britain" - meaningless phrase??? It was the name of a state from 1707 to 1801, and was a component part of the name of the UK of GB + NI. Now on earth can that be meaningless? Mindboggling. FearÉIREANN 22:50, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, 'Great Britain' was an adminstrative gadget invented by James I. Where are the 'Great British', the ethnic race that inhabit such a place? Theres no such race!!! Theres the English, the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh - the Great British dont exist. And the 'British' are not just those 4 nations.
Actually, anyone can be British, all u need to do is get a UK passport. Yo uactual place of birth, nationality or ethnicity is irrelevant. You dont have to be born her eor be related to anyone here to be British. Its a stateless, meningless label. And since devolution seems to be the name of the game, and the Welsh are proud to be Welsh, the Scots pproud to be Scottish (they even have ther own parliment), as do the Nothern Irish, then we the English also wish to maintain our nationality and cultural integrity. So, to me and thousands of others like me, Great Britain is a contempable, meningless label. We are the United Kingdom.
You seem to have chosen some odd sites to back up your argument:
I'll echo
FearÉIREANN and
Owain, "Great Britain" is the name of the island, whether you like it or not, and there is a British identity in addition to the others. --
Arwel 15:15, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am reverting the changes made by user Benbread on 15 March 2005. User Benbread, apparently, thought that the 2003 estimates were too old, and so he put some 2004 estimates from the CIA world factbook. Should it be reminded to all one more time that the CIA world factbook is not the Bible? It is actually known for making big mistakes. In the case of UK population, the CIA world factbook is wrong. The only credible estimates for the UK population come from the UK Office for National Statistics, and the latest estimates we have are for July 2003. In the next months we should get the July 2004 estimates. Computing UK population is a difficult process. There was already a discussion about this a few months ago on this discussion page. After the 2001 UK census, UK Statistics realized that their estimates were overestimated, that's why they had to downsize them and change their estimate methods. CIA world factbook is obviously not aware of that and still uses bogus estimates from the 1990s. So please don't change the estimates again to put the CIA world factbook figures. It's becoming weary to always have to revert misinformed edits. Hardouin 13:15, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quote: The term "Great" is used in opposition to "Little" Britain or Brittany in France (the '-ny' ending being diminutive).
The -ny of Brittany is no more a diminutive ending than the -ny of Tuscany or Germany!
Compare Bretagne / Brittany with Gascogne / Gascony, etc. This -ny is no more than the English version of the Latin -ia ending (here applied to a root ending in -n) via French -gne. Yes, Brittany is Britannia Minor in Latin -- in contradistinction to Britannia (Major) -- but those who consciously talked up the idea of "Great Britain" in the 16th-17th centuries did not have Brittany on their minds - rather, a whole-island polity of "greater Britain". See The Isles: A History by Norman Davies. -- Picapica 22:50, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Queen used to have her image shown in politics section, but should not be so prominent in politics section given that she is apolitical. Wikipedia should strive to be neutral as far as possible, and the Prime Minister (love him or hate him) is the most important figure politically - not the Queen who has a largely symbolic role
Why the resistance to removing the Commonwealth and NATO templates? Consensus has existed at Wikiproject countries since May 2004 that these templates do not belong. The UK article is now one of the only ones to have these templates. Also recently Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes was rewritten after much discussion and it now contains a number of rules that explicitly say these templates are a bad idea. Notably it now states that "multiple boxes are generally considered a blight." - SimonP 17:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
The only reason many other articles do not have templates is because you deleted many of them today. And the said policy does not explicitly say these templates are a bad idea, it says it could be a disadvantage. Astrotrain 17:58, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Why is 'electronica' mentioned in this article? That is hardly a significant genre of music let alone a culture defining one. This article needs major work-- Josquius 19:41, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is this article separate from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland? Tjdw 16:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Why, when we could choose from thousands of helpful external links, is one of the 20 most important deemed to be UK Gay Guides: A guide to the gay scenes in various towns in the UK? It looks very out of place among our links list of maps, atlases, geographical and political information and a couple of major national institutions.
I submit that if this were important enough to be included, so would be "a guide to the straight scenes in various towns", "a guide to the music scenes in various towns", "a guide to your local hospital in various towns", "a guide to finding a good pub to watch the footy in in various towns" and so forth. Wikipedia could link to such sites (if they're good sites), but not IMO from United Kingdom, they're just not relevant enough. Now flame away. — Blotwell 02:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people might be offended to call the UK "England", but who is offended to call the UK "Britain"?
I presume it means the Act of Union was unpopular, not the Scottish government. Is "deeply unpopular" accurate, or would simply "unpopular" be more accurate. Without evidence, it should make quite such a bold assertation about the attitude of " the broader Scottish population" (whatever that means) 300 years ago.
"to say nothing of its part" is a poor way of phrasing the UK's scientific and cultural contributions. Any suggestion to a better way of putting it? The history section is extremely poor in general, it might be better if someone just wrote a fresh summary of it using the History of the United Kingdom
Is this a reference to hereditary peers or something different? Deus Ex 28 June 2005 19:00 (UTC)
I changed the line about UK/GB misusage, hopefully it's more accurate now. I'm not really convinced that many people outside of Northern Ireland are aware of, or offended by the misuage. After all even political parties often call the UK "Britain", like Labour's 2001 manifesto: " Ambitions for Britain". "Ambitions for the United Kingdom" would sound a bit over-formal. And things like "Brit-pop", "Britannia" are obviously derived from "Britain". But it is true that "United Kingdom" or more accurately "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" are the only correct legal names for the country. Deus Ex 3 July 2005 00:08 (UTC)
This is completely off the point and I haven't bothered reading all the stuff above, but the map of Britain's crap, it shows loads of ports then Birmingham. Felixstowe isn't as important as say, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Nottingham, Derby, even Mansfield, so why keep that map?
(Above two comments moved into this section, where they are more relevant -- Rednaxela 9 July 2005 11:01 (UTC))
I see that this article uses the frankly bizarre CIA map of the UK (Peterhead and Grangemouth but no Inverness, for example) from the
CIA World Factbook. Surely there must be a better one than this available in the public domain?
Leithp July 8, 2005 14:02 (UTC)
I am quite surprised by the poll that shows that 23% of the UK favouring a Republic, but I would say that "little support" and "23%" are contradictory. I would think that, say, under 10% would be little support, where as nearly a quarter would be seen as a significant minority. Does anyone else think it should just perhaps say something along the lines of "a recent poll showed only 23% in favour of a President"? On the the subject on the Act of Union 1707 being deeply unpopular, writers at the time commented that it was deeply unpopular and reported demonstrations against it. I think Daniel Defoe, who was in Edinburgh at the time, reported a violent protest against it "A Scots rabble the worst of its kind" and it was also said "for every Scot in favour of the Union there is 100 against it". But it was 300 years ago, who cares? Not necessary for the main UK article anyway.
Perhaps "a recent poll showed 23% in favour of a President". The statistic doesn't surprise me at all. A lot of people are against the nepotism rather than the Royal Family itself, SqueakBox 22:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
And I have chganged it to Although the abolition of the monarchy has been suggested several times, the popularity of the monarchy remains strong with 23% wanting a republic, it isn't only 23% but neither is 77% quite strong, as it had been described, SqueakBox 22:21, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
The coat of arms shown in the box on the top right is the coat of arms as used in England (and possibly abroad), but the version used in Scotland is different with the lion and unicorn reversed, the Scottish arms appearing twice and the English and Irish once, different compartment and motto, and I think some other changes - should this page show that too?
OK, I know there have been discussions about this before; but I wasn't involved in them — so I don't remember if there was any clear upshot. At any rate, since we've been having a lovely edit war about them again, maybe it's time to discuss some more.
To my eyes, I agree that there shouldn't be too many boxes at the bottom; that is ugly and distracting. But on the other hand, omission of certain "obvious" infoboxes could be interpreted as "unnatural" and hence POV.
Let me suggest that there appear to be three main categories of "membership" for the UK:
I would argue that it is unnatural and POV to focus our boxes on one of these categories; we should include a healthy cross-section from all three categories. But again, I don't think it's necessary to include every single possibility. Doops | talk 21:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC) PS: Please see also my thoughts at the WikiProject Countries talk page. Doops | talk 22:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a simple logical way to define what templates are necessary, namely, is it important in understanding the country for readers to understand a particular context of importance to that country, for example
So for example,
The UK, because of its economic size and world role will need more templates than smaller countries. There can be no 'only x' number of templates' policy that is workable. It simply has got to cover the central issue - is it relevant in terms of history, constitution, politics or economics.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
England has been the controlling member of the UK like how Russia was the controlling member of the USSR I would also like to add that places like The Isile of Mann are not part of the UK they belong to the queen Scotland may have it's own Parliment but it is still part of the UK Dudtz7/20/05 18:00 est
I withdrawn that idea and went to the exact opposite Engalnd is not a nation only the UK exists as a nation I dont know what I was thinking when I wrote that other thing Dudtz7/21/05 5:53 PM EST
In the politics section, the Queen is wearing the Order of Canada and is reigning as the Canadian monarch; this is, indeed, a picture from the Canadian Government. This is inappropriate, much like using US English in an article on the UK. Is there a better picture?
A user using various IPs has been redirecting this article to
England. They have been warned over and over again, under their various IPs, to stop, including getting a final warning (test4) telling them that they would be blocked if they did the redirect again. It may be their first time using that IP but it is part of a series. It is a waste of time treating them each time as a new user. They are simply an old user IP-surfing. They know exactly what they are doing (and have been doing it here for days.) Block them the moment they try under a new IP. Their most recent IP has just been blocked.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of England's counties, as UK and England are the same
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
22:59, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, there are plenty of Scots like me who will happily lynch those who equate England and the UK.
It's the national obsession!
Wait, and there has never been a 'United Kingdom of England'. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not, and can never be defined as, counties. They are home nations. Zhengfu
I attempted to fix it and might have briefly made it worse because I don't know what I'm doing - sorry!
Quotes:
I feel foolish asking this, but according to the quotes above, the United Kingdom is a country of countries. Is that correct? Is there some more proper terminology? Would it be more proper to say:
Is there an official UK policy on terminology? -- Reinyday, 06:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I think all of your restatements are OK; but so too is the original statement. It is a country made up four countries. Life is messy. And I sure hope there's no official policy — how boring! Doops | talk 06:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC) PS — not just boring: it would also be officious and unnecessarily meddlesome; and also smack of false precision. Doops | talk 17:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The way it is currently is fine. There are lots of overlap with terms such as nation and country, so trying to find a perfect politically-correct solution will end up offending someone. Owain 09:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The official policy is that the United Kingdom is exactly that: a kingdom uniting the three constituent countries and Northern Ireland under a common government. The UK is therefore NOT a country- feel free to consult Whitman's Almanac which backs up this. Jmperry
The UK is not a country. It can be described as a state, a kingdom or a geo-political entity. It consists 3 countries (or nations) and a region. JM is correct in his definition. Wikipedia is not.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
05:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yep, no doubt about it: the UK is not a country. A kingdom or a state, yes but not a country. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Last time I checked my passport, the UK was a country. I seemed to have misplaced my english passport. Perhaps I should contact the english parliament about it or I could even ask the Queen of England. I assume England is a signatory to many international agreements so that my human rights are guarenteed. Red screen of death 11:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the UK is a country and a nation, but it contains four constituent nations, which are not countries as recognised by the UN, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Keith 20:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
No. Not so. The UK is not a nation. It is a geopolitical entity created from the merger of 4 nations through a series of Acts of Union. Ireland however left legally in 1922. Northern Ireland is not a nation and is not regarded by any group as a nation. Unionists regard themselves as British. Nationalists regard themselves as Irish. Neither side regard Northern Ireland as a nation.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
20:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Everybody agrees on what the situation is; there's no need to keep rehashing it. The only disagreement is on what the words country, nation, state, and kingdom mean. Personally, I think that it's false precision to claim to try to pin down any of these words too precisely. Doops | talk 20:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Obviously everyone doesn't agree. People use country for nation, nation for kingdom, state for nation. An encyclopædia needs accuracy in its use of terminology, not half-baked, illdefined, mumbo-jumbo. The term kingdom is the most apt. Its meaning is simple: a state with a monarch. It is dodgy POV to suggest that Scotland, Wales and England aren't countries. It is poor writing to talk of something being a country made up of three countries. It is the sort of thing that would be seized on any secondary school teacher as shoddy workmanship and poor writing. An encyclopædia can't write such inferior rubbish.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
20:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
To follow up: I don't think I can express any better than I did in January (slightly edited) — All this is ridiculous. A small handful of people clearly attatch strong POV meanings to the words "country," "state," and "nation" — but in common parlance the words are virtually indistinguishable. True, a country has definite geographic implications (there could be an unpopulated country), a nation has definite people-based implications (there could be a landless nation), and a state definitely has governmental implications (a nation or country in anarchy wouldn't really be a state) — but these are differences in emphasis. The UK is a state, nation, country, and kingdom; trying to pin in down further is false precision. England, Scotland, and Wales (and perhaps Northern Ireland as well) are countries and nations, although one probably wouldn't call them states. (England and Scotland, furthermore, have a history as kingdoms although they aren't independent kingdoms anymore.) There really shouldn't be any issue of POV, just clarity — what's the simplest and most direct word for an introductory ¶? Doops 02:36, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) Furthermore, if you haven't seen it before, just a reminder that there's already been several metric oodles of discussion here:
Talk:United Kingdom/Country, Kingdom or State.
Doops |
talk
20:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course, the term used in Acts of Parliament (for England, Scotland, Wales, and NI — Ed.) is "Part".
Just to clarify, I asked this question out of curiosity, and not because I feel the wording in the article needs to be changed. I just wondered if you could technically have a country made up of countries. I am enjoying everyone's input, except the overtly rude comments. -- Reinyday, 01:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
A couple more interesting bits of data. Firstly, the EU describes itself as
"The European Union (EU) is a family of democratic European countries, committed to working together for peace and prosperity."
So you would expect the UK, as a member, to be a country.
The ever-inaccurate-and-wobbly CIA World Factbook has this glaring innaccuracy on the UK page:
"The second half [of the 20th century] witnessed the dismantling of the Empire and the UK rebuilding itself into a modern and prosperous European nation."
...unless they didn't mean "nation" technically, but more as a wobbly notion-state? (I'm so sorry.)
I don't see a problem with "a country of countries". The key thing to avoid is what the CIA Factbook did, which is to call the UK a nation. Robertbyrne 18:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I've read elsewhere (sorry, too lazy to check) that it is a major journalistic faux pas to describe the UK as a "nation", or, I think, to speak of "the nation" when referring to the UK. Not sure about the word "national" though. It might be OK.
Apart from some kind of historico-cultural aversion to the notion of the UK being a nation (probably many people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland might take a special exception to the idea), I agree that you could in principle have a nation of nations, but I doubt one exists, given the ideas we usually attribute to nations.
As for the general notion of "an X of Xs", I am sure everyone would agree that there are "regions of regions". Also, isn't the US a state of states? (The constitutent states not being soverign, but the federal "state" being a soverign state.) The UN seems to call its members "states" at [10] (Although it also implies they are "peace-loving"!)
(So the UN is really "the US". Ouch! Reminds me of the French for the US: les EU. (In French the EU is the UE, so it only hurts in English.)) Robertbyrne 19:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Lol, it is true that the UN is in fact a union of states, but I guess the name was already taken.
For my view, the reason people avoid 'nation' with the UK is simply to avoid offending the various nationalists of its consituent parts ;-). The UK is most definately a state. As for country... I think this works too; as has been said, country is a synonym for both nation and state. However, its ambiguous nature means that its place in an encylopedia is questionable. So, the UK is a state of nations, which can also make it a country of countries.
As for Northern Ireland - well its not a country, nation or a state! Its not even a county, as its borders don't match exactly with that of Ulster. So go figure Robdurbar 13:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
There is mention of tennis, football, rugby, and more besides, but not a single word on Motor Racing... that is really quite appalling.
A little offtopic perhaps, but I don't know where to ask. What does CO UK (as in amazon.co.uk, or in postal address) stand for? 82.210.173.231 09:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Co=company! That was my first guess, but my friend didn't aggree, and I had to ask :) I'm not from US - I'm from Poland. Thanks for the quick response. 82.210.173.231 11:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
A great number of major sports originated in the United Kingdom, including football, golf, cricket, squash, boxing, rugby, billiards, and rounders, the forerunner of baseball. England won the 1966 FIFA World Cup and the 2003 Rugby World Cup.
- The article is about the UK and sports originiating in the UK. England winning stuff has nothing to do with sports originating in the UK, or the UK overall. It already states under that the footballing nations are individual. It only makes the complicated subject of the UK more difficult. I have made changes and improved the text / linkage.
I need to see more pictures.I am doing a report on United Kingdom and I looked everywhere to find pictures and I just cant find them.I even looked on other sites and I can't find any!It is so frustrating!I would redo the whole intrenet system to find pictures!!!If I can't find pictures I will Tell my teacher that it is all your fault and you are the most disapointing website I've ever been to!
Bretagne 44 14:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Might it be worth making this a featured article? A perhaps slighlty boring task, but...
James F. (talk) 20:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't see any reason why this article is not of great enough quality to be considered as a featured article - go for it :)
-Benbread
20:29, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Who has made this new "Countries of Europe" thing on the bottom? with the subdivisions and the maps? I think this should either be corrected or reverted back to how to used to be. Not only are these groupings subjective, several countries are excluded from the list. Where is San Marino, Malta. before it also had territories that were self governing listed, like the faroe islands, or gibalter. I think this new one is a shame. -- sterms 19:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
The entry is full of superscript numerals (example: "Anthem: God Save the Queen4") (superscript "4") which aren't links and apparently don't refer to any footnotes on the page. What is this? It damages the usability of the page. Let's remove them or make them actually useful. -- 15 October 2005
Template:United Kingdom infobox, copying this to its talk page, SqueakBox 19:02, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
How many countries of the world do recognize the UK? I remember reading there are some that only acknowledge Great Britain, because they give priority for the natural right of the Irish Island for unity and independence.
100% of states worldwide recognise the UK. The last that didn't, the Republic of Ireland, did so de facto under Article 3 of the Irish constitution in 1937 and does now de jure by constitutional amendment.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
22:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Discussion continued in Archive 4.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I think the UK template should stay at the bottom of this article. Does anyone also not think that all the colours make it look very pretty? Jiang does not think it should be there. The main reason I think it should be there (apart from the prettyness of course!) is the unique status of the UK being a country consisting of other countries! Therefore I think it is important to have bolder links to each of the UK parts at the bottom. Comments please.
I would have thought it was up to the person advocating the removal of an obviously relevant template to offer some justification for its removal. It is rather perverse to demand that people justify an obviously justifiable template. But since you set this ridiculous demand here's the answer:
Therefore it makes elementary common sense to have a template showing to those who don't know the relationship between the UK and what are in effect its political and cultural subsets, Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. I fail to see how this could even be an issue for debate as it is so self-evidently a good idea, that of creating a template that can bring certain linked articles together as an easily accessible set. In fact this idea should be used for other states that are of a unitary nature but which consist of a number of countries, federal states and confederal states. FearÉIREANN 00:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Considering England has no head of state, no passport, no parliament, no seat in the United Nations, no national broadcaster, hasn't signed any treaties in over 300 years, no judicial system of its own, I don't understand why it is still called a country by some. My passport says my country is the United Kingdom. England died in the Act of Union along with Scotland & Wales ceased to be a country long before then. Dmn / Դմն 16:44, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I think Cornwall and the Cornish merit being viewed as a constituent people and nation of the UK for the following reasons.
"Another point is the Brick Wall test. If you built a brick wall and cut off any area of the UK, could it survive as a separate nation? I doubt Cornwall could, neither could Lincoln shire!!! Yes they were a nation, yes they are a distinct"
"there is also a popular and an academic debate as to whether the Cornish are a constituent people of the UK and could be considered a Nation"
"They reflect the generally accepted consensus and report it"
"Nowhere legally in the definition of the kingdom is there such an entity and a 'nation' called Cornwall"
"Encyclopaedias can only deal with facts"
"If you want to write to promote the concept of a Cornish nation"
"If it is only at the debate stage then its outcome cannot be stated as fact"
"Please grasp what an encyclopaedia can and cannot do"
I have made the following changes on the devolution section. The part in bold is the new addition, the rest was there before:
There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation. A movement to obtain some degree of home rule also exists in Cornwall, a petition of over 50000 signatures was collected endorsing the call for a Cornish Assembly however the UK government is not known to be considering any form of devolution to Cornwall Bretagne 44 21/4/05
If the guy wants to put in POV that says 'a group of cornish men still consider themselves a separate nation' then I dont see why not. The fact some people disagree is irrelevant. There is the constant battle on Wikipedia about NPOV. 'The cornish consider themselves a separate nation whereas politically and economically they are not' is a perfectly valid POV. Put a para in, I say.
Lincolnshire Poacher
I reverted to my version, because:
1. The phrase "There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation." is grossly inaccurate. Very few people outside Cornwall are aware, let alone care about the 'debate'. I've seen no evidence that Cornwall's constitutional status has been widely debated, or at all, in academia. Provide substantial evidence if you believe that is true.
2. My version is 43 words, and the other is 69. I believe that on a page about the UK in general, 69 words is far too much to devote to Cornish nationalism. Perhaps that amount would be appropriate for Politics of the United Kingdom, but certainly not United Kingdom. It is inherently POV to give so much space to a movement with only 50,000 signatures endorsing it, considering their is no mention of significant topics like the Labour Party, Conservative Party, Lib Dems, UKIP, Green Party, BNP (and EU membership) - all of which have receive far more support (in terms of votes) than Cornish nationalism.
I propose that Cornish nationalism be allocated one sentence in this article, and two sentences in the Politics of the United Kingdom, to reflect its importance in the context of the UK. There are far more important topics which should be mentioned. Deus Ex 21:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've reduced the mention of Cornwall to one sentence. This article's long enough already, after I added information about political parties which was previously omitted. The relevance of Cornish nationalism to an article about the entire UK is too small to have more than a single sentence. Deus Ex 11:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
DeusEx you wrote:
The phrase "There is some debate, both popular and academic, as to whether the Cornish could be considered a constituent peoples of the UK and possibly a Nation." is grossly inaccurate.
1) the debate concerning the Cornish national identity and its place in the framework of the peoples of the UK.
2) the debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall.
I have modified your changes. Bretagne 44 7/5/05
Given the links you provide, I accept there is some interest about Cornish national identity and the constitutional status of Cornwall, but I still believe that the original length of the reference to Cornish nationalism was too long. The current length is acceptable, but should not be any longer. It would be more worthwhile to talk about other topics-like UK minor parties, such as the BNP, UKIP, Green Party and Northern Irish parties than have far more followers in terms of votes at the last election than discussion of Cornwall at any more length than the current reference.The politics section could also talk about the UK's relationship with the EU, which is not mentioned in the politics section at all. Space is not unlimited on this page, it is currently at 39 kilobytes in length.By the way, I would prefer If you used your user account to make changes to the United Kingdom and other pages, rather than an anon IP which gives the impression of surreptitious editing. Deus Ex 17:22, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The current length is acceptable It is not your position to say what is or is not acceptable but to come to a consensus, that is unless you want to sound arrogant? It is not your position to say what is acceptable so please think about what you are doing here.
I would prefer If you used your user account to make changes to the United Kingdom and other pages, rather than an anon IP which gives the impression of surreptitious editing
Really. Bretagne 44 16/5/05
It's Cornish nationalists that are arrogant if they think their issue is of high importance in the UK nationally. I didn't simply say the current length was acceptable just because I as a person thought it was, I gave reasons which you have not responded to. Northern Irish politics, minor UK parties, the EU, human rights, terrorism, and probably many other UK politics topics receive much more national attention than Cornish politics-you only have to watch national news TV programmes or read national newspapers to know that. The UK government has paid little/no attention to Cornish politics and the call for a devolved assembly. I'm not saying Cornish politics receive no national coverage at all, but those other topics individually receive more attention. NI and minor UK political parties like Green, UKIP, receive far more votes than Cornish political parties-so why should we omit them and go into an extended discussion about Cornwall. That is why I don't think its appropriate to make the current mention of Cornwall any longer-because this page is 39k already, and those other topics are more important.
I'm sure you won't accept this, but Wikipedia's coverage of Cornwall's identity/constitutional question is generous already. On Britannica for example, there is no mention of Cornish politics in their United Kingdom article, even though there is a large paragraph on "regional government". Also, there is no mention of Cornish identity/constitutional question in their Cornwall article, and the Wikipedia article, Cornish nationalism is mentioned immediately in the first paragraph. Deus Ex 11:07, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
No but it is of importance in a section about national and regional devolution.
So you think these should be covered in a section on regional parliaments and government?
So that makes it OK then does it? That means the petition should not be mentioned does it? Why does'nt Wikipedia just copy the UK news and Britannica, save a lot of time and please all the ultra unionist bigots at the same time.
That's because they are UK wide parties. Where is there mention of Mebyon Kernow on this UK page? Again should they be in a sectiuon on devolution and national parliaments?
Yawn, in the section about devolution and regional government i killed two birds with one stone saving a lot of space. I described the desire for devolution to Cornwall which is worthy of mention and also described the debate about whether or not the Cornish are one of the constituent nations of the UK and how this relates to the Assembly issue. Now you for what ever reason don't like this or don't think it worthy of mention but i would ask you why?
Britannica Britannica shmitannica!
Here is another link to the discussion on Cornish identity within the UK [2] Bretagne 44 18/5/05
It's of very low importance in the UK as a whole, and of low importance in comparison to other regional movements. The nationalist movements in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are much larger, polling at least 45x more votes (at the 2005 election).
No, I think these should be covered in the "Government and Politics" section of the United Kingdom article. As I have said multiple times before, there is not space for large coverage of every minor facet of UK politics on the United Kingdom article. The regional parliaments and government subsection does not need to be any larger than it currently is, it covers the topic adequately. However, other subsections of the United Kingdom require expansion, and it is more important to expand these than talk any further above Cornwall.
There needs to be a way of measuring the extent/popularity of a movement or political party. It might be measuring the number of votes in an recent election, the coverage in the national media, the attention government has given it. You seem to be suggesting giving coverage to Cornwall just because you feel it is important. So what if you think the media/govt/public is against Cornish nationalism-the point is that its is not important to UK national politics or regional politics in any measurable or perceivable way. 50,000 signatures for the petition is a very small amount compared with the population of Cornwall (10x that) or compared with the number of voters that took part with the Scottish/Welsh/NI referendums on devolution, or compared with the number of voters that vote for nationalist political parties in those nations. Here's a radical idea-the media/govt/UK public/Britannica editors are not indifferent/against Cornish nationalists/devolutionists because they are "bigots" or part of a vast conspiracy against Cornwall, it is because it is a movement that polls insignificant amounts of votes at elections, and according to its own petitions, less than 10% of the Cornish public support.
Exactly my point. There isn't space on this page to talk about regional political parties that poll miniscule numbers of votes. Only UK parties and nationalist parties like SNP, PC, SF which poll substantial numbers of votes are worthy of note. Mebyon Kernow received 3,552 votes at the last election-less than fringe parties like the Legalise Cannabis Alliance, and in comparison to another regional parties, 49 times less votes than Plaid Cymru. Mebyon Kernow is not relevant to a section on UK parties, or a section or regional parties-it polls far to few votes. If someone started an independence for the Isle Wight political party which polled 3,552 votes, it wouldn't be notable either. If Mebyon Kernow polled say 30% of the Cornwall population, then it would obviously be worthy of note.
I don't care if you keep the petition info, even though I don't think that petitions that represent less than 10% of the population are worthy of inclusion. What I would oppose is if the info on Cornwall was expanded anymore than its current size, for the reasons I have mentioned above. If there is any reason to expand the regional politics section, then it should be to talk more in depth about NI/Scottish/Welsh politics, not Cornwall, which is already adequately covered for an article about the entire United Kingdom. There is already a link to Constitutional status of Cornwall, which is enough about the academic issue. Deus Ex 22:46, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
No, it is important because it is fundamental to the nature of the UK and the makeup of the British people. It is a debate about what are the constituent peoples of the UK plus the related subjects of devolution and nationalism. For some reason this is not important for you, why? On the UK page there should be a section on the subject of what is the UK, is it a nation or a collection of nations, and in this section the Cornish and their Duchy should be mentioned. This is not the case however my original edit summed up both points.
To compare a petition gathered by volunteers as opposed to a nationwide referendum organised by government is spurious in the extreme and makes me question your motivation.
In addition to the petition there are two opinion poles that put support for a Cornish assembly at over 50%, the work of the Cornish Constitutional Convention and the fact that the whole Duchy is Lib Dem, a party that supports devolution to Kernow.
These are just the votes for candidates in the general election, however if you add the votes for the Council elections in constituencies that MK did not field a candidate for the general the number is closer to 10000.
I think there is a degree of conspiracy to undermine the Cornish national identity and change the nature and history of the Duchy, however in this instance I was referring to certain users of the internet.
Bretagne 44 19/5/05
How about replacing the current text with this then, if you wish to show that there is 1. a popular movement 2. an academic debate. There is no need to mention the petition explicitly-just provide a link:
"In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [6] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall." Deus Ex 17:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
How about: "In Cornwall, there is a movement that calls for devolution [7] ( Cornish nationalism), and an academic debate over the Cornish identity and constitutional status of Cornwall." Bretagne 44 20/5/05
Done. Deus Ex 18:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Three of these parts—England, Wales and Scotland—are located on the island of Great Britain and are often considered nations in their own right. WTF!!!
England as a nation has been in existence since AT LEAST 1500 AD see http://east_west_dialogue.tripod.com/europe/id5.html or even further, see http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/E/En/English_nation.htm and also http://www.englishindependenceparty.com/window.htm
Its also a valid argument to say that Magna Carta was the first legal cornerstone of the English nation, and therefore the English Nation is at least 800 years old. You could even say the English started when the Romans mixed with the Brigantes in 56 AD, followed by the Saxons, Danes and Vikings, and then the Normans, so the English were formed per se by 1086. So i object to this line, and propose to remove or edit it.
Ill tackle the subject of the meaningless phrase 'Great Britain' when weve sorted this one.
Anyone object?
Lincolnshire Poacher 21:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Great Britain" - meaningless phrase??? It was the name of a state from 1707 to 1801, and was a component part of the name of the UK of GB + NI. Now on earth can that be meaningless? Mindboggling. FearÉIREANN 22:50, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, 'Great Britain' was an adminstrative gadget invented by James I. Where are the 'Great British', the ethnic race that inhabit such a place? Theres no such race!!! Theres the English, the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh - the Great British dont exist. And the 'British' are not just those 4 nations.
Actually, anyone can be British, all u need to do is get a UK passport. Yo uactual place of birth, nationality or ethnicity is irrelevant. You dont have to be born her eor be related to anyone here to be British. Its a stateless, meningless label. And since devolution seems to be the name of the game, and the Welsh are proud to be Welsh, the Scots pproud to be Scottish (they even have ther own parliment), as do the Nothern Irish, then we the English also wish to maintain our nationality and cultural integrity. So, to me and thousands of others like me, Great Britain is a contempable, meningless label. We are the United Kingdom.
You seem to have chosen some odd sites to back up your argument:
I'll echo
FearÉIREANN and
Owain, "Great Britain" is the name of the island, whether you like it or not, and there is a British identity in addition to the others. --
Arwel 15:15, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am reverting the changes made by user Benbread on 15 March 2005. User Benbread, apparently, thought that the 2003 estimates were too old, and so he put some 2004 estimates from the CIA world factbook. Should it be reminded to all one more time that the CIA world factbook is not the Bible? It is actually known for making big mistakes. In the case of UK population, the CIA world factbook is wrong. The only credible estimates for the UK population come from the UK Office for National Statistics, and the latest estimates we have are for July 2003. In the next months we should get the July 2004 estimates. Computing UK population is a difficult process. There was already a discussion about this a few months ago on this discussion page. After the 2001 UK census, UK Statistics realized that their estimates were overestimated, that's why they had to downsize them and change their estimate methods. CIA world factbook is obviously not aware of that and still uses bogus estimates from the 1990s. So please don't change the estimates again to put the CIA world factbook figures. It's becoming weary to always have to revert misinformed edits. Hardouin 13:15, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quote: The term "Great" is used in opposition to "Little" Britain or Brittany in France (the '-ny' ending being diminutive).
The -ny of Brittany is no more a diminutive ending than the -ny of Tuscany or Germany!
Compare Bretagne / Brittany with Gascogne / Gascony, etc. This -ny is no more than the English version of the Latin -ia ending (here applied to a root ending in -n) via French -gne. Yes, Brittany is Britannia Minor in Latin -- in contradistinction to Britannia (Major) -- but those who consciously talked up the idea of "Great Britain" in the 16th-17th centuries did not have Brittany on their minds - rather, a whole-island polity of "greater Britain". See The Isles: A History by Norman Davies. -- Picapica 22:50, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Queen used to have her image shown in politics section, but should not be so prominent in politics section given that she is apolitical. Wikipedia should strive to be neutral as far as possible, and the Prime Minister (love him or hate him) is the most important figure politically - not the Queen who has a largely symbolic role
Why the resistance to removing the Commonwealth and NATO templates? Consensus has existed at Wikiproject countries since May 2004 that these templates do not belong. The UK article is now one of the only ones to have these templates. Also recently Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes was rewritten after much discussion and it now contains a number of rules that explicitly say these templates are a bad idea. Notably it now states that "multiple boxes are generally considered a blight." - SimonP 17:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
The only reason many other articles do not have templates is because you deleted many of them today. And the said policy does not explicitly say these templates are a bad idea, it says it could be a disadvantage. Astrotrain 17:58, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Why is 'electronica' mentioned in this article? That is hardly a significant genre of music let alone a culture defining one. This article needs major work-- Josquius 19:41, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Why is this article separate from United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland? Tjdw 16:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Why, when we could choose from thousands of helpful external links, is one of the 20 most important deemed to be UK Gay Guides: A guide to the gay scenes in various towns in the UK? It looks very out of place among our links list of maps, atlases, geographical and political information and a couple of major national institutions.
I submit that if this were important enough to be included, so would be "a guide to the straight scenes in various towns", "a guide to the music scenes in various towns", "a guide to your local hospital in various towns", "a guide to finding a good pub to watch the footy in in various towns" and so forth. Wikipedia could link to such sites (if they're good sites), but not IMO from United Kingdom, they're just not relevant enough. Now flame away. — Blotwell 02:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish people might be offended to call the UK "England", but who is offended to call the UK "Britain"?
I presume it means the Act of Union was unpopular, not the Scottish government. Is "deeply unpopular" accurate, or would simply "unpopular" be more accurate. Without evidence, it should make quite such a bold assertation about the attitude of " the broader Scottish population" (whatever that means) 300 years ago.
"to say nothing of its part" is a poor way of phrasing the UK's scientific and cultural contributions. Any suggestion to a better way of putting it? The history section is extremely poor in general, it might be better if someone just wrote a fresh summary of it using the History of the United Kingdom
Is this a reference to hereditary peers or something different? Deus Ex 28 June 2005 19:00 (UTC)
I changed the line about UK/GB misusage, hopefully it's more accurate now. I'm not really convinced that many people outside of Northern Ireland are aware of, or offended by the misuage. After all even political parties often call the UK "Britain", like Labour's 2001 manifesto: " Ambitions for Britain". "Ambitions for the United Kingdom" would sound a bit over-formal. And things like "Brit-pop", "Britannia" are obviously derived from "Britain". But it is true that "United Kingdom" or more accurately "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" are the only correct legal names for the country. Deus Ex 3 July 2005 00:08 (UTC)
This is completely off the point and I haven't bothered reading all the stuff above, but the map of Britain's crap, it shows loads of ports then Birmingham. Felixstowe isn't as important as say, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Nottingham, Derby, even Mansfield, so why keep that map?
(Above two comments moved into this section, where they are more relevant -- Rednaxela 9 July 2005 11:01 (UTC))
I see that this article uses the frankly bizarre CIA map of the UK (Peterhead and Grangemouth but no Inverness, for example) from the
CIA World Factbook. Surely there must be a better one than this available in the public domain?
Leithp July 8, 2005 14:02 (UTC)
I am quite surprised by the poll that shows that 23% of the UK favouring a Republic, but I would say that "little support" and "23%" are contradictory. I would think that, say, under 10% would be little support, where as nearly a quarter would be seen as a significant minority. Does anyone else think it should just perhaps say something along the lines of "a recent poll showed only 23% in favour of a President"? On the the subject on the Act of Union 1707 being deeply unpopular, writers at the time commented that it was deeply unpopular and reported demonstrations against it. I think Daniel Defoe, who was in Edinburgh at the time, reported a violent protest against it "A Scots rabble the worst of its kind" and it was also said "for every Scot in favour of the Union there is 100 against it". But it was 300 years ago, who cares? Not necessary for the main UK article anyway.
Perhaps "a recent poll showed 23% in favour of a President". The statistic doesn't surprise me at all. A lot of people are against the nepotism rather than the Royal Family itself, SqueakBox 22:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
And I have chganged it to Although the abolition of the monarchy has been suggested several times, the popularity of the monarchy remains strong with 23% wanting a republic, it isn't only 23% but neither is 77% quite strong, as it had been described, SqueakBox 22:21, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
The coat of arms shown in the box on the top right is the coat of arms as used in England (and possibly abroad), but the version used in Scotland is different with the lion and unicorn reversed, the Scottish arms appearing twice and the English and Irish once, different compartment and motto, and I think some other changes - should this page show that too?
OK, I know there have been discussions about this before; but I wasn't involved in them — so I don't remember if there was any clear upshot. At any rate, since we've been having a lovely edit war about them again, maybe it's time to discuss some more.
To my eyes, I agree that there shouldn't be too many boxes at the bottom; that is ugly and distracting. But on the other hand, omission of certain "obvious" infoboxes could be interpreted as "unnatural" and hence POV.
Let me suggest that there appear to be three main categories of "membership" for the UK:
I would argue that it is unnatural and POV to focus our boxes on one of these categories; we should include a healthy cross-section from all three categories. But again, I don't think it's necessary to include every single possibility. Doops | talk 21:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC) PS: Please see also my thoughts at the WikiProject Countries talk page. Doops | talk 22:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a simple logical way to define what templates are necessary, namely, is it important in understanding the country for readers to understand a particular context of importance to that country, for example
So for example,
The UK, because of its economic size and world role will need more templates than smaller countries. There can be no 'only x' number of templates' policy that is workable. It simply has got to cover the central issue - is it relevant in terms of history, constitution, politics or economics.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
England has been the controlling member of the UK like how Russia was the controlling member of the USSR I would also like to add that places like The Isile of Mann are not part of the UK they belong to the queen Scotland may have it's own Parliment but it is still part of the UK Dudtz7/20/05 18:00 est
I withdrawn that idea and went to the exact opposite Engalnd is not a nation only the UK exists as a nation I dont know what I was thinking when I wrote that other thing Dudtz7/21/05 5:53 PM EST
In the politics section, the Queen is wearing the Order of Canada and is reigning as the Canadian monarch; this is, indeed, a picture from the Canadian Government. This is inappropriate, much like using US English in an article on the UK. Is there a better picture?
A user using various IPs has been redirecting this article to
England. They have been warned over and over again, under their various IPs, to stop, including getting a final warning (test4) telling them that they would be blocked if they did the redirect again. It may be their first time using that IP but it is part of a series. It is a waste of time treating them each time as a new user. They are simply an old user IP-surfing. They know exactly what they are doing (and have been doing it here for days.) Block them the moment they try under a new IP. Their most recent IP has just been blocked.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
23:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of England's counties, as UK and England are the same
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
22:59, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, there are plenty of Scots like me who will happily lynch those who equate England and the UK.
It's the national obsession!
Wait, and there has never been a 'United Kingdom of England'. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not, and can never be defined as, counties. They are home nations. Zhengfu
I attempted to fix it and might have briefly made it worse because I don't know what I'm doing - sorry!
Quotes:
I feel foolish asking this, but according to the quotes above, the United Kingdom is a country of countries. Is that correct? Is there some more proper terminology? Would it be more proper to say:
Is there an official UK policy on terminology? -- Reinyday, 06:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I think all of your restatements are OK; but so too is the original statement. It is a country made up four countries. Life is messy. And I sure hope there's no official policy — how boring! Doops | talk 06:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC) PS — not just boring: it would also be officious and unnecessarily meddlesome; and also smack of false precision. Doops | talk 17:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The way it is currently is fine. There are lots of overlap with terms such as nation and country, so trying to find a perfect politically-correct solution will end up offending someone. Owain 09:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The official policy is that the United Kingdom is exactly that: a kingdom uniting the three constituent countries and Northern Ireland under a common government. The UK is therefore NOT a country- feel free to consult Whitman's Almanac which backs up this. Jmperry
The UK is not a country. It can be described as a state, a kingdom or a geo-political entity. It consists 3 countries (or nations) and a region. JM is correct in his definition. Wikipedia is not.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
05:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yep, no doubt about it: the UK is not a country. A kingdom or a state, yes but not a country. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Last time I checked my passport, the UK was a country. I seemed to have misplaced my english passport. Perhaps I should contact the english parliament about it or I could even ask the Queen of England. I assume England is a signatory to many international agreements so that my human rights are guarenteed. Red screen of death 11:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the UK is a country and a nation, but it contains four constituent nations, which are not countries as recognised by the UN, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Keith 20:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
No. Not so. The UK is not a nation. It is a geopolitical entity created from the merger of 4 nations through a series of Acts of Union. Ireland however left legally in 1922. Northern Ireland is not a nation and is not regarded by any group as a nation. Unionists regard themselves as British. Nationalists regard themselves as Irish. Neither side regard Northern Ireland as a nation.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Everybody agrees on what the situation is; there's no need to keep rehashing it. The only disagreement is on what the words country, nation, state, and kingdom mean. Personally, I think that it's false precision to claim to try to pin down any of these words too precisely. Doops | talk 20:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Obviously everyone doesn't agree. People use country for nation, nation for kingdom, state for nation. An encyclopædia needs accuracy in its use of terminology, not half-baked, illdefined, mumbo-jumbo. The term kingdom is the most apt. Its meaning is simple: a state with a monarch. It is dodgy POV to suggest that Scotland, Wales and England aren't countries. It is poor writing to talk of something being a country made up of three countries. It is the sort of thing that would be seized on any secondary school teacher as shoddy workmanship and poor writing. An encyclopædia can't write such inferior rubbish.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
To follow up: I don't think I can express any better than I did in January (slightly edited) — All this is ridiculous. A small handful of people clearly attatch strong POV meanings to the words "country," "state," and "nation" — but in common parlance the words are virtually indistinguishable. True, a country has definite geographic implications (there could be an unpopulated country), a nation has definite people-based implications (there could be a landless nation), and a state definitely has governmental implications (a nation or country in anarchy wouldn't really be a state) — but these are differences in emphasis. The UK is a state, nation, country, and kingdom; trying to pin in down further is false precision. England, Scotland, and Wales (and perhaps Northern Ireland as well) are countries and nations, although one probably wouldn't call them states. (England and Scotland, furthermore, have a history as kingdoms although they aren't independent kingdoms anymore.) There really shouldn't be any issue of POV, just clarity — what's the simplest and most direct word for an introductory ¶? Doops 02:36, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) Furthermore, if you haven't seen it before, just a reminder that there's already been several metric oodles of discussion here:
Talk:United Kingdom/Country, Kingdom or State.
Doops |
talk
20:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Of course, the term used in Acts of Parliament (for England, Scotland, Wales, and NI — Ed.) is "Part".
Just to clarify, I asked this question out of curiosity, and not because I feel the wording in the article needs to be changed. I just wondered if you could technically have a country made up of countries. I am enjoying everyone's input, except the overtly rude comments. -- Reinyday, 01:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
A couple more interesting bits of data. Firstly, the EU describes itself as
"The European Union (EU) is a family of democratic European countries, committed to working together for peace and prosperity."
So you would expect the UK, as a member, to be a country.
The ever-inaccurate-and-wobbly CIA World Factbook has this glaring innaccuracy on the UK page:
"The second half [of the 20th century] witnessed the dismantling of the Empire and the UK rebuilding itself into a modern and prosperous European nation."
...unless they didn't mean "nation" technically, but more as a wobbly notion-state? (I'm so sorry.)
I don't see a problem with "a country of countries". The key thing to avoid is what the CIA Factbook did, which is to call the UK a nation. Robertbyrne 18:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I've read elsewhere (sorry, too lazy to check) that it is a major journalistic faux pas to describe the UK as a "nation", or, I think, to speak of "the nation" when referring to the UK. Not sure about the word "national" though. It might be OK.
Apart from some kind of historico-cultural aversion to the notion of the UK being a nation (probably many people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland might take a special exception to the idea), I agree that you could in principle have a nation of nations, but I doubt one exists, given the ideas we usually attribute to nations.
As for the general notion of "an X of Xs", I am sure everyone would agree that there are "regions of regions". Also, isn't the US a state of states? (The constitutent states not being soverign, but the federal "state" being a soverign state.) The UN seems to call its members "states" at [10] (Although it also implies they are "peace-loving"!)
(So the UN is really "the US". Ouch! Reminds me of the French for the US: les EU. (In French the EU is the UE, so it only hurts in English.)) Robertbyrne 19:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Lol, it is true that the UN is in fact a union of states, but I guess the name was already taken.
For my view, the reason people avoid 'nation' with the UK is simply to avoid offending the various nationalists of its consituent parts ;-). The UK is most definately a state. As for country... I think this works too; as has been said, country is a synonym for both nation and state. However, its ambiguous nature means that its place in an encylopedia is questionable. So, the UK is a state of nations, which can also make it a country of countries.
As for Northern Ireland - well its not a country, nation or a state! Its not even a county, as its borders don't match exactly with that of Ulster. So go figure Robdurbar 13:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
There is mention of tennis, football, rugby, and more besides, but not a single word on Motor Racing... that is really quite appalling.
A little offtopic perhaps, but I don't know where to ask. What does CO UK (as in amazon.co.uk, or in postal address) stand for? 82.210.173.231 09:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Co=company! That was my first guess, but my friend didn't aggree, and I had to ask :) I'm not from US - I'm from Poland. Thanks for the quick response. 82.210.173.231 11:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
A great number of major sports originated in the United Kingdom, including football, golf, cricket, squash, boxing, rugby, billiards, and rounders, the forerunner of baseball. England won the 1966 FIFA World Cup and the 2003 Rugby World Cup.
- The article is about the UK and sports originiating in the UK. England winning stuff has nothing to do with sports originating in the UK, or the UK overall. It already states under that the footballing nations are individual. It only makes the complicated subject of the UK more difficult. I have made changes and improved the text / linkage.
I need to see more pictures.I am doing a report on United Kingdom and I looked everywhere to find pictures and I just cant find them.I even looked on other sites and I can't find any!It is so frustrating!I would redo the whole intrenet system to find pictures!!!If I can't find pictures I will Tell my teacher that it is all your fault and you are the most disapointing website I've ever been to!
Bretagne 44 14:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Might it be worth making this a featured article? A perhaps slighlty boring task, but...
James F. (talk) 20:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't see any reason why this article is not of great enough quality to be considered as a featured article - go for it :)
-Benbread
20:29, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Who has made this new "Countries of Europe" thing on the bottom? with the subdivisions and the maps? I think this should either be corrected or reverted back to how to used to be. Not only are these groupings subjective, several countries are excluded from the list. Where is San Marino, Malta. before it also had territories that were self governing listed, like the faroe islands, or gibalter. I think this new one is a shame. -- sterms 19:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
The entry is full of superscript numerals (example: "Anthem: God Save the Queen4") (superscript "4") which aren't links and apparently don't refer to any footnotes on the page. What is this? It damages the usability of the page. Let's remove them or make them actually useful. -- 15 October 2005
Template:United Kingdom infobox, copying this to its talk page, SqueakBox 19:02, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
How many countries of the world do recognize the UK? I remember reading there are some that only acknowledge Great Britain, because they give priority for the natural right of the Irish Island for unity and independence.
100% of states worldwide recognise the UK. The last that didn't, the Republic of Ireland, did so de facto under Article 3 of the Irish constitution in 1937 and does now de jure by constitutional amendment.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
22:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Discussion continued in Archive 4.