This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Should the heading not be Reunited Ireland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.32.138 ( talk) 14:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: Do you not think it is reasonable to have an opinion poll regardIng whether there shoulD be a poll in the article? Nobody is suggesting this means a majority are pro-UI. Apollo The Logician ( talk) 12:13, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: The heading, text and diagram in the LucidTalk document all prominently contain the words "Border poll", e.g. "There is a slight majority in Northern Ireland in support of having a 'Border Poll' in the next 5 years", so it's not just a general question about the hypothetical constitutional status of NI. If we look at your hypothetical outcomes:
A "border poll" can have only one meaning, and only one question: should there be a border or not? Or in other words, should the island be divided or united? A very similar poll in 2014 is already mentioned in the Public opinion section. This latest poll should be mentioned (briefly) immediately after it. Also pinging Mabuska, Apollo The Logician. -- Scolaire ( talk) 10:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
The citation I have provided states that 51% are in favour of a border poll. I am not really sure why this was necessary in the first place considering it seems obvious that it is about a border poll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unity ref ( talk • contribs)
Reliable sources say a border poll is a united ireland referendum. They can be provided on demand.
Well this article multiple times refers to a united ireland referendum as a border poll just so you know.
Here is one source which states "Brexit, demographic shifts and the dramatic outcome of the Northern Assembly elections are all fueling talk of a united Ireland, a Border poll and joint authority." https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-is-there-something-in-the-air-1.3007271 Well this article multiple times refers to a united ireland referendum as a border poll just so you know.
Can you give an example of border poll not being used to refer to a united ireland referendum? The poll referenced asks about a border poll, border poll only has one meaning as you well know. according to the Irish sun the poll was regarding "the norths constitutional place in the uk" which also can only mean one thing.
"No source to prove a negative no."
a lack of sources can. You wouldnt include the statement "Hitler was actually a closet jew" in an article because no sources say otherwise would you? Would you not agree that a lack of source is enough of a reason to exclude it?
There is a tendency on pages like these to change "the state of Northern Ireland" to something else, on the grounds that Northern Ireland is not a sovereign state. The latest attempt is by EncyclopaediaNilssonia with this edit. This ignores the fact that Northern Ireland – especially between 1921 and 1972 – is almost universally referred to as a state. Do a Google Books search for "state of northern ireland", "northern ireland state", "northern irish state" and "northern state" ireland. Don't look at the "About 6,960 results" under the search box; just scroll through the results and you'll see that each search returns at least 50–60 good quality books referring to Northern Ireland as a state. By contrast, search for "jurisdiction of Northern Ireland": I found a total of four books, all of them fairly esoteric, where that phrase actually appears. "State" should be used until somebody can show that the balance of reliable sources don't use it. Scolaire ( talk) 14:27, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Two big problems with this chart:
Recommend deletion. 82.21.168.53 ( talk) 12:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The big blue-red-yellow-grey-green chart ought also to go, for several reasons:
The problem with the chart in the "In Great Britain" section is bigger. It does at least correspond with the (very brief) text, but with a cutoff of 2008 it is hopelessly out of date. Scolaire ( talk) 16:19, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
I've replaced the old chart graphic, which was imprecise because it didn't include the "don't know" responds of the surveys, while still having every stacked bar add up to 100%. This led to some inaccuracies, e.g. the survey's result for "remain part of the UK" in 2000 was 60%, while the chart clearly shows the red bar extending well past 65%. Some years the "don't know" responses even amount to 14%, that's quite a bit of information to leave out.
So, I've built the new chart with the
Graph:Chart template. This gives us some more flexibility with updating the graphic with new results (just add it in the comma-delimited list!) and accurate representation of values. Of course, this means that sometimes we encounter rounding errors, which is why some years add up to 99% or 101%. This is perfectly normal, although it might look odd at first glance.
I was trying to get the percentages printed onto the bars, although the template's page states this isn't yet supported. The numbers show up, but can't be rotated and don't have any collision detection or minimum spacing, so the smaller bars' labels overlap and become illegible. Maybe in the future this will be fixed, which is why I've left you an alternative version of the chart to the right. --
Safto Rangen (
talk) 02:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is presented from a set point of view that favours a united Ireland by focusing on set pieces of information which deliberately support the idea (for example the public opinion section places undue weight towards polls which favour a united Ireland and pro-unity political parties/positions). Brythones ( talk) 21:29, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
There is an incongruity between the article's short description and its first sentence. The short description reads:
"Idea that the whole island of Ireland should be a single country"
The first sentence reads:
"United Ireland is the proposition that all of Ireland should be a single sovereign state."
There is no reason for these to be unnecessarily different, much less for there to be contention over the differences between the two. I chose to make both sentences say the same thing:
"[United Ireland is the] proposition that all of Ireland should be a single country."
To me, this is an improvement in style, consistency, and clarity. For one thing, United Ireland is not just an "idea" that someone had, it is a proposition with political support, especially post-Brexit. Second, the distinction between "sovereign state" and "country" is deceptive. Ireland may appear to be a single country on a map because of geographic continuity, but in fact it is two separate countries with separate governments, which is the entire subject of this article.
Furthermore, WP:LEAD states that an article's introduction "should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view." When people speak of political boundaries separating independent governments, they speak of countries. "Sovereign state" is an overly technical term that does not serve the introduction's purpose of being accessible to a potentially unfamiliar audience.
Per WP:BOLD I have kept the changes in question. Please direct further comments to this discussion thread. Thanks.
68.58.56.64 ( talk) 16:34, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
"Idea that the whole island of Ireland should be a single country"..." - I've changed that to "state" in the short description. Johnbod ( talk) 02:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
The first paragraph should be completely rewritten as there has been a marked shift in voting intentions towards a united Ireland since Brexit. It is simply not true anymore to write "Opinion polls of the Northern Ireland population have consistently shown majorities opposed to a United Ireland and in support of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom" and to use an outdated example in the next sentence. Please re-write. Pcauchy ( talk) 23:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Sources? Degen Earthfast ( talk) 19:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
This is a well balanced page which has largely avoided the temptations of partisanship, and I urge the editors to keep it that way. For completeness it should probably have a section which considers the economic consequences of Irish unification, not least because these might be the factors which determine whether it happens or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 16:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Should the heading not be Reunited Ireland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.32.138 ( talk) 14:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: Do you not think it is reasonable to have an opinion poll regardIng whether there shoulD be a poll in the article? Nobody is suggesting this means a majority are pro-UI. Apollo The Logician ( talk) 12:13, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: The heading, text and diagram in the LucidTalk document all prominently contain the words "Border poll", e.g. "There is a slight majority in Northern Ireland in support of having a 'Border Poll' in the next 5 years", so it's not just a general question about the hypothetical constitutional status of NI. If we look at your hypothetical outcomes:
A "border poll" can have only one meaning, and only one question: should there be a border or not? Or in other words, should the island be divided or united? A very similar poll in 2014 is already mentioned in the Public opinion section. This latest poll should be mentioned (briefly) immediately after it. Also pinging Mabuska, Apollo The Logician. -- Scolaire ( talk) 10:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
The citation I have provided states that 51% are in favour of a border poll. I am not really sure why this was necessary in the first place considering it seems obvious that it is about a border poll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unity ref ( talk • contribs)
Reliable sources say a border poll is a united ireland referendum. They can be provided on demand.
Well this article multiple times refers to a united ireland referendum as a border poll just so you know.
Here is one source which states "Brexit, demographic shifts and the dramatic outcome of the Northern Assembly elections are all fueling talk of a united Ireland, a Border poll and joint authority." https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-is-there-something-in-the-air-1.3007271 Well this article multiple times refers to a united ireland referendum as a border poll just so you know.
Can you give an example of border poll not being used to refer to a united ireland referendum? The poll referenced asks about a border poll, border poll only has one meaning as you well know. according to the Irish sun the poll was regarding "the norths constitutional place in the uk" which also can only mean one thing.
"No source to prove a negative no."
a lack of sources can. You wouldnt include the statement "Hitler was actually a closet jew" in an article because no sources say otherwise would you? Would you not agree that a lack of source is enough of a reason to exclude it?
There is a tendency on pages like these to change "the state of Northern Ireland" to something else, on the grounds that Northern Ireland is not a sovereign state. The latest attempt is by EncyclopaediaNilssonia with this edit. This ignores the fact that Northern Ireland – especially between 1921 and 1972 – is almost universally referred to as a state. Do a Google Books search for "state of northern ireland", "northern ireland state", "northern irish state" and "northern state" ireland. Don't look at the "About 6,960 results" under the search box; just scroll through the results and you'll see that each search returns at least 50–60 good quality books referring to Northern Ireland as a state. By contrast, search for "jurisdiction of Northern Ireland": I found a total of four books, all of them fairly esoteric, where that phrase actually appears. "State" should be used until somebody can show that the balance of reliable sources don't use it. Scolaire ( talk) 14:27, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Two big problems with this chart:
Recommend deletion. 82.21.168.53 ( talk) 12:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The big blue-red-yellow-grey-green chart ought also to go, for several reasons:
The problem with the chart in the "In Great Britain" section is bigger. It does at least correspond with the (very brief) text, but with a cutoff of 2008 it is hopelessly out of date. Scolaire ( talk) 16:19, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
I've replaced the old chart graphic, which was imprecise because it didn't include the "don't know" responds of the surveys, while still having every stacked bar add up to 100%. This led to some inaccuracies, e.g. the survey's result for "remain part of the UK" in 2000 was 60%, while the chart clearly shows the red bar extending well past 65%. Some years the "don't know" responses even amount to 14%, that's quite a bit of information to leave out.
So, I've built the new chart with the
Graph:Chart template. This gives us some more flexibility with updating the graphic with new results (just add it in the comma-delimited list!) and accurate representation of values. Of course, this means that sometimes we encounter rounding errors, which is why some years add up to 99% or 101%. This is perfectly normal, although it might look odd at first glance.
I was trying to get the percentages printed onto the bars, although the template's page states this isn't yet supported. The numbers show up, but can't be rotated and don't have any collision detection or minimum spacing, so the smaller bars' labels overlap and become illegible. Maybe in the future this will be fixed, which is why I've left you an alternative version of the chart to the right. --
Safto Rangen (
talk) 02:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is presented from a set point of view that favours a united Ireland by focusing on set pieces of information which deliberately support the idea (for example the public opinion section places undue weight towards polls which favour a united Ireland and pro-unity political parties/positions). Brythones ( talk) 21:29, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
There is an incongruity between the article's short description and its first sentence. The short description reads:
"Idea that the whole island of Ireland should be a single country"
The first sentence reads:
"United Ireland is the proposition that all of Ireland should be a single sovereign state."
There is no reason for these to be unnecessarily different, much less for there to be contention over the differences between the two. I chose to make both sentences say the same thing:
"[United Ireland is the] proposition that all of Ireland should be a single country."
To me, this is an improvement in style, consistency, and clarity. For one thing, United Ireland is not just an "idea" that someone had, it is a proposition with political support, especially post-Brexit. Second, the distinction between "sovereign state" and "country" is deceptive. Ireland may appear to be a single country on a map because of geographic continuity, but in fact it is two separate countries with separate governments, which is the entire subject of this article.
Furthermore, WP:LEAD states that an article's introduction "should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view." When people speak of political boundaries separating independent governments, they speak of countries. "Sovereign state" is an overly technical term that does not serve the introduction's purpose of being accessible to a potentially unfamiliar audience.
Per WP:BOLD I have kept the changes in question. Please direct further comments to this discussion thread. Thanks.
68.58.56.64 ( talk) 16:34, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
"Idea that the whole island of Ireland should be a single country"..." - I've changed that to "state" in the short description. Johnbod ( talk) 02:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
The first paragraph should be completely rewritten as there has been a marked shift in voting intentions towards a united Ireland since Brexit. It is simply not true anymore to write "Opinion polls of the Northern Ireland population have consistently shown majorities opposed to a United Ireland and in support of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom" and to use an outdated example in the next sentence. Please re-write. Pcauchy ( talk) 23:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Sources? Degen Earthfast ( talk) 19:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
This is a well balanced page which has largely avoided the temptations of partisanship, and I urge the editors to keep it that way. For completeness it should probably have a section which considers the economic consequences of Irish unification, not least because these might be the factors which determine whether it happens or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 ( talk) 16:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)