Union of the Crowns was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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I really don't know what to make of this article: it is either a bad translation from a foreign language, or it has been written by someone who is not an native English speaker. As a possible alternative, it might, I suppose, have been co-written by a panel of minor bureaucrats at the Ministry of Circumlocution. It is so badly phrased that it breaks down at several points into complete incoherence. Given the importance of the topic it is in urgent need of rescue. I'm not sure if I have the time or the inclination. Rcpaterson 00:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose you are right; its wrong to raise a problem and assume others will attend to its resolution-thanks. Time is still an issue, though, but I will do my best. I have to say, in fairness, that I would come as a 'resurrectionist' rather than a surgeon; the patient in his present condition is beyond saving. I am, I should also say, new to this whole project, and am not sure if it is legitimate to submit articles to wholesale substitution? Rcpaterson 09:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Having found the time-and the inclination-I have built the ship anew. It's an important story, worth telling and worth understanding. Rcpaterson 01:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I have taken it upon myself to expand into detail the background of British identity in the Anglo-Scottish borderlands and its impact upon Northern Ireland, whilst the rest of the article appears glossy and poetic as opposed to dealing with the grey areas--I leave that for others' fixing. Lord Loxley 10:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I further explained the Scottish monarchy's connections with England and revised the error which purported that George III was sympathetic or even cared about Scotland any more than he had an understanding of America--that we leave to his rebellious heir. Lord Loxley 10:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Mais oui! is one of those Scottish editors who cannot bear English presentations of events which affect both England and Scotland. S/he automatically reverts anything beyond the sense of "cliqueness" of his/her immediately approved consensus among like-minded folks in the Scottish community. Please, there can be no cookie-cutter poetry to describe the events which led to British Union. They were not all of one source or intent; one should hardly think it is necessary to omit the Catholic contribution to the Union, when merely skimming through history books casts this to light on Tudor-Stuart affairs. Lord Loxley 11:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you both, except the part on King George--although I know the Highlanders were Loyalists in the American wars, for this, George handed Henry Benedict Stuart a pension and the future was sealed under Georgie Porgie. My formatting was horrible, but the presentation of facts was a reflection of actual events. Why should only the slimmed down, Protestant version be used as the standard of British history, when the Union occurred in a backdrop of varied relationships? Catholic Stewart court was a large part of the Union (just as Parliamentarians were Calvinist), while aristocratic titles and feudal associations long tied Reivers on both sides into the same culture. When James assumed both monarchy-titles, so did his nobles in the status they held as peers of the realm: England and Scotland, York and Albany, Richmond and Lennox, Prince of Wales and Lord of the Isles--these arrangements were just as monumentous as the Union of the Crowns and took place before government machinery had a chance to solidify in 1707. I still believe that the issue of passive background to the Anglo-Scottish Union of Crowns should be explored, with detail on the Douglases. Lord Loxley 07:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to add a word or two to the above, and I address these remarks to the community as a whole, not to any particular individual. I first read the previous piece on the Union of the Crowns not long after I started to dip in to Wikipedia. It was so bad, both in point of fact and in style, that I though it was some kind of joke: it really did look as if it had been translated from a foreign language. I am indeed a professional historian, but I know how Wikipedia operates, and I have absolutely no desire to make a claim to 'ownership' to any contribution I make. Moreover, I welcome thoughtful editing and comment. My sole purpose has been to spend some sleepless hours trying to extend-and deepen-the range of topics touching on Scotland. This article has not been edited; it is being smothered by fatuous and incoherent additions which robs the piece of both integrity and sense. My suspicion is that this is being done by the original author; for though a different name is used the same atrocious style of writing and ignorance of the facts is clearly evident. As things stand I would rather return to the original contribution than allow what I have written to be aborted by degrees. I will leave this for a day or two to allow others to comment as they wish before reverting. Rcpaterson 00:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
RCP, your predilection for insomniac editing has brought a comical aspect to the article which has a veritable light and thin countenance. Maybe you'd appreciate that this is not novelisation of issues; this is an encyclopaedia, which depends on monotonous descriptions and information. Lord Loxley 07:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted this to the original. My reasons for doing so can be found in the talk page history of JW1805 ( talk · contribs) Rcpaterson 00:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the Template:Inappropriate tone tag as it's worse than useless: it advertises at the head of the article the editor's vague personal opinion that the style isn't right, and links to Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles which only mentions tone once, in the context of the option (NOT requirement) of using News style, which itself gives little or no guidance about "tone". There's a case for listing articles for cleanup to draw in help, and this can usefully be done with tags on the talk pages of articles, but this tag on the article itself is at best an irritation and insult to editors who have put considerable effort into improving the article. If you see faults in the article, the best things to do are to edit it, or draw attention on the talk page to exactly what problem you find. ... dave souza, talk 11:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Can I propose this is moved to something like "Union of Crowns (1603)", as there are many other such "unions of crowns"... the ones which spring to mind are the Scandinavian unions, the Spanish unions etc etc -- MacRusgail 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
No citations after the first two sections. Alientraveller 18:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).
But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 23:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed by Act of Parliament in 1800. This united the countries of Great Britian and Ireland, with the Irish Parliament in Dublin (House of Commons and Lords) being dissolved and the Irish MPs sitting in the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster (with representative Irish Peers sitting in the House of Lords).
Do not confuse this with the earlier Acts of Union in 1707, which united the Kingdoms of England and Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britian. Again, the same process occured, with the Scottish Parliament being abolished and with Scottish MPs sitting in the new British Parliament at Westminster (and again with representative Scottish Peers sitting in the House of Lords). Ds1994 ( talk) 10:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this article 'Union of the Crowns' discussed within the context 1603-1707 is totally misleading.
The period 1603-1707 was a 'personal' union, and had nothing to do with the crowns themselves. Sovereigns in this period continued to be crowned separately up to Charles II, and even after then they continued to have separate regnal titles in each of the respective countries. The situation was not resolved until 1707 with the Acts of Union, forming the country of Great Britain. Only from then was one crown used, St Edward's Crown, which was converted from the Crown of England to the Crown of Great Britain. The Scottish crown jewels (the Honours of Scotland including the Scottish Crown) then went into 'abeyance' at Edinburgh Castle and have not been worn since (although the Crown of Scotland does now make an appearance at the Opening of the Scottish Parliament, but is still not worn).
I can only assume this article has been written by a foreigner residing outside the United Kingdom.
Ds1994 ( talk) 10:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I can read thanks. There may be references to the term 'union of the crowns' but I don't think this in itself is justification to perpetuate a myth at best, or an historical inaccuracy at worst.
I have made a minor grammatical alteration in the first sentence of the article to emphasise the historical inaccuracy of this misleading term.
Ds1994 ( talk) 19:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
see [1] -- KarlB ( talk) 02:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
"For James, whose experience of parliaments was limited to the stage-managed and semi-feudal Scottish variety, the self-assurance — and obduracy — of the English version, which had long experience of upsetting monarchs, was an obvious shock."
I do not believe this dim view of the Parliament of Scotland is universally held by historians, so this statement is hardly a self-evident truth and could do with a citation, the tone is also less than encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.194.255 ( talk) 14:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
It seems POV. For instance the following sentence "In the end the union of Scotland and England was to be successful but it was never a marriage of equals". It also does not cite any references. Tmfs10 ( talk) 02:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
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1. "our realme wald receive na damage thair thorow, for in that caise Ingland wald not accress unto Scotland, bot Scotland wald acress unto Ingland, as to the most noble heid of the hole yle...evin as quhan Normandy came in the power of Inglis men our forbearis."
It would be nice if a translation was provided along with the text. That is not standard English.
2. "Consider it they did for several years, never drawing the desired conclusion."
Rewrite the sentence. The grammar is awful.
3. "all the poor people of the realm of Scotland".
This segment is biased and it lacks quotation marks (if it is a quote at all).
4. Under the "Symbols" section the fourth coat of arms is labeled "Arms of the Kingdom of Scotland, 1603–1707". Should it be labeled "Arms of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of Ireland, 1603–1707"?
Union of the Crowns was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
I really don't know what to make of this article: it is either a bad translation from a foreign language, or it has been written by someone who is not an native English speaker. As a possible alternative, it might, I suppose, have been co-written by a panel of minor bureaucrats at the Ministry of Circumlocution. It is so badly phrased that it breaks down at several points into complete incoherence. Given the importance of the topic it is in urgent need of rescue. I'm not sure if I have the time or the inclination. Rcpaterson 00:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose you are right; its wrong to raise a problem and assume others will attend to its resolution-thanks. Time is still an issue, though, but I will do my best. I have to say, in fairness, that I would come as a 'resurrectionist' rather than a surgeon; the patient in his present condition is beyond saving. I am, I should also say, new to this whole project, and am not sure if it is legitimate to submit articles to wholesale substitution? Rcpaterson 09:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Having found the time-and the inclination-I have built the ship anew. It's an important story, worth telling and worth understanding. Rcpaterson 01:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I have taken it upon myself to expand into detail the background of British identity in the Anglo-Scottish borderlands and its impact upon Northern Ireland, whilst the rest of the article appears glossy and poetic as opposed to dealing with the grey areas--I leave that for others' fixing. Lord Loxley 10:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I further explained the Scottish monarchy's connections with England and revised the error which purported that George III was sympathetic or even cared about Scotland any more than he had an understanding of America--that we leave to his rebellious heir. Lord Loxley 10:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Mais oui! is one of those Scottish editors who cannot bear English presentations of events which affect both England and Scotland. S/he automatically reverts anything beyond the sense of "cliqueness" of his/her immediately approved consensus among like-minded folks in the Scottish community. Please, there can be no cookie-cutter poetry to describe the events which led to British Union. They were not all of one source or intent; one should hardly think it is necessary to omit the Catholic contribution to the Union, when merely skimming through history books casts this to light on Tudor-Stuart affairs. Lord Loxley 11:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you both, except the part on King George--although I know the Highlanders were Loyalists in the American wars, for this, George handed Henry Benedict Stuart a pension and the future was sealed under Georgie Porgie. My formatting was horrible, but the presentation of facts was a reflection of actual events. Why should only the slimmed down, Protestant version be used as the standard of British history, when the Union occurred in a backdrop of varied relationships? Catholic Stewart court was a large part of the Union (just as Parliamentarians were Calvinist), while aristocratic titles and feudal associations long tied Reivers on both sides into the same culture. When James assumed both monarchy-titles, so did his nobles in the status they held as peers of the realm: England and Scotland, York and Albany, Richmond and Lennox, Prince of Wales and Lord of the Isles--these arrangements were just as monumentous as the Union of the Crowns and took place before government machinery had a chance to solidify in 1707. I still believe that the issue of passive background to the Anglo-Scottish Union of Crowns should be explored, with detail on the Douglases. Lord Loxley 07:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to add a word or two to the above, and I address these remarks to the community as a whole, not to any particular individual. I first read the previous piece on the Union of the Crowns not long after I started to dip in to Wikipedia. It was so bad, both in point of fact and in style, that I though it was some kind of joke: it really did look as if it had been translated from a foreign language. I am indeed a professional historian, but I know how Wikipedia operates, and I have absolutely no desire to make a claim to 'ownership' to any contribution I make. Moreover, I welcome thoughtful editing and comment. My sole purpose has been to spend some sleepless hours trying to extend-and deepen-the range of topics touching on Scotland. This article has not been edited; it is being smothered by fatuous and incoherent additions which robs the piece of both integrity and sense. My suspicion is that this is being done by the original author; for though a different name is used the same atrocious style of writing and ignorance of the facts is clearly evident. As things stand I would rather return to the original contribution than allow what I have written to be aborted by degrees. I will leave this for a day or two to allow others to comment as they wish before reverting. Rcpaterson 00:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
RCP, your predilection for insomniac editing has brought a comical aspect to the article which has a veritable light and thin countenance. Maybe you'd appreciate that this is not novelisation of issues; this is an encyclopaedia, which depends on monotonous descriptions and information. Lord Loxley 07:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted this to the original. My reasons for doing so can be found in the talk page history of JW1805 ( talk · contribs) Rcpaterson 00:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the Template:Inappropriate tone tag as it's worse than useless: it advertises at the head of the article the editor's vague personal opinion that the style isn't right, and links to Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles which only mentions tone once, in the context of the option (NOT requirement) of using News style, which itself gives little or no guidance about "tone". There's a case for listing articles for cleanup to draw in help, and this can usefully be done with tags on the talk pages of articles, but this tag on the article itself is at best an irritation and insult to editors who have put considerable effort into improving the article. If you see faults in the article, the best things to do are to edit it, or draw attention on the talk page to exactly what problem you find. ... dave souza, talk 11:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Can I propose this is moved to something like "Union of Crowns (1603)", as there are many other such "unions of crowns"... the ones which spring to mind are the Scandinavian unions, the Spanish unions etc etc -- MacRusgail 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
No citations after the first two sections. Alientraveller 18:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).
But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 23:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed by Act of Parliament in 1800. This united the countries of Great Britian and Ireland, with the Irish Parliament in Dublin (House of Commons and Lords) being dissolved and the Irish MPs sitting in the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster (with representative Irish Peers sitting in the House of Lords).
Do not confuse this with the earlier Acts of Union in 1707, which united the Kingdoms of England and Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britian. Again, the same process occured, with the Scottish Parliament being abolished and with Scottish MPs sitting in the new British Parliament at Westminster (and again with representative Scottish Peers sitting in the House of Lords). Ds1994 ( talk) 10:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this article 'Union of the Crowns' discussed within the context 1603-1707 is totally misleading.
The period 1603-1707 was a 'personal' union, and had nothing to do with the crowns themselves. Sovereigns in this period continued to be crowned separately up to Charles II, and even after then they continued to have separate regnal titles in each of the respective countries. The situation was not resolved until 1707 with the Acts of Union, forming the country of Great Britain. Only from then was one crown used, St Edward's Crown, which was converted from the Crown of England to the Crown of Great Britain. The Scottish crown jewels (the Honours of Scotland including the Scottish Crown) then went into 'abeyance' at Edinburgh Castle and have not been worn since (although the Crown of Scotland does now make an appearance at the Opening of the Scottish Parliament, but is still not worn).
I can only assume this article has been written by a foreigner residing outside the United Kingdom.
Ds1994 ( talk) 10:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I can read thanks. There may be references to the term 'union of the crowns' but I don't think this in itself is justification to perpetuate a myth at best, or an historical inaccuracy at worst.
I have made a minor grammatical alteration in the first sentence of the article to emphasise the historical inaccuracy of this misleading term.
Ds1994 ( talk) 19:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
see [1] -- KarlB ( talk) 02:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
"For James, whose experience of parliaments was limited to the stage-managed and semi-feudal Scottish variety, the self-assurance — and obduracy — of the English version, which had long experience of upsetting monarchs, was an obvious shock."
I do not believe this dim view of the Parliament of Scotland is universally held by historians, so this statement is hardly a self-evident truth and could do with a citation, the tone is also less than encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.194.255 ( talk) 14:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
It seems POV. For instance the following sentence "In the end the union of Scotland and England was to be successful but it was never a marriage of equals". It also does not cite any references. Tmfs10 ( talk) 02:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Union of the Crowns. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
1. "our realme wald receive na damage thair thorow, for in that caise Ingland wald not accress unto Scotland, bot Scotland wald acress unto Ingland, as to the most noble heid of the hole yle...evin as quhan Normandy came in the power of Inglis men our forbearis."
It would be nice if a translation was provided along with the text. That is not standard English.
2. "Consider it they did for several years, never drawing the desired conclusion."
Rewrite the sentence. The grammar is awful.
3. "all the poor people of the realm of Scotland".
This segment is biased and it lacks quotation marks (if it is a quote at all).
4. Under the "Symbols" section the fourth coat of arms is labeled "Arms of the Kingdom of Scotland, 1603–1707". Should it be labeled "Arms of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of Ireland, 1603–1707"?