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It has just been announced today (6th of december, 2020) that the party is closing down.
Source: Cristiano Brown (Party president) announcement on Twitter. https://twitter.com/Cristiano_Brown/status/1335662680745648131 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.60.148.134 ( talk) 20:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I asked about this issue at the Teahouse and received this response:
I feel that my cited reference to Rosa Diez's newspaper article as well as this source, subsequently deleted by BernardaAlba (which I shall now restore), provide sufficient grounds for maintaining the inclusion of this item in the Ideology section. This will help readers more than not including it. I'll also try to create a section in the main article to explain the party's position on nationalism more clearly.
I would also argue that further removal of this item without prior discussion should be considered vandalism because absolutely no attempt has been made to establish consensus against this term. Tomclarke ( talk) 15:59, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I see how this party has been described as "anti-nationalist" by Wikipedia. I think there is a difference about what a party calls itself, and what it really is. This is actually the strongest nationalist party in Spain, representing Spanish nationalism. I would agree on changing this description: using the word "Spanish nationalist" or simply removing the adjective "anti-nationalist" from its description. -- Pa-integral ( talk) 16:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I have corrected the classification to 'Nationalism'. This is a more accurate classification than 'anti-nationalism'.-- Tomclarke ( talk) 10:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Its ideology does not focus on a strong and traditional idea of the Spanish Nation. It focuses on the ineffectiveness of a very descentralized country. Actually Spain is the most politically descentralized country in Europe, and they think that is the cause of so many problems: linguistic problems such as the obligation to study in catalan in Catalonia and Balears Islands, health care problems (having 17 public health care systems instead of one), etc. UPyD politicians never use the Spanish flag for their events. In conslusion, it is more about Spanish constitutionalism than nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.147.185.18 ( talk) 18:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
An unsigned change, right on election day. I'm reverting the page to include the reference to Spanish nationalism on the grounds that although nationalism may not be UPyD's most important focus, it is a clear and relevant element of the party's ideology and intent. --
Tomclarke (
talk)
18:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
A nationalist has a strong concept of the nation, based on elements such as traditions, history. UPyD just defends a more centralized political system in order to make it more effective. Actually it support all languages in the country to be official and people can decide which one they want to speak on the contrary nationalists defend, either Spanish nationalists or separatists (Spanish over regional languages, in the first case, and the opposite in the second case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.59.70.26 ( talk) 14:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
An example of UPyD's Spanish nationalism:
"...quiero empezar por reivindicar la importancia de defender la unidad de la Nación española como el único instrumento capaz de garantizar la igualdad de todos los españoles ante la ley. Y digo esto porque una buena parte de los males que aquejan nuestro país son consecuencia de un proceso de fragmentación del Estado al que nos ha conducido la nefasta política aplicada por su Gobierno, en esta y en la pasada legislatura. Una política que ha convertido al Gobierno de la Nación en un mero coordinador de las Comunidades Autónomas; una política que han tenido como consecuencia el debilitamiento de la cohesión y el incremento de la desigualdad entre españoles. " (my emphasis) - apologies that it's in Spanish.
Taken from the UPyD address during the State of the Nation debate in Madrid. Your argument that UPyD 'supports all languages in the country' is nonsense as the party has stated that its primary aim is to dissolve the Autonomous Communities in Spain, in order to establish a single nation with one official language (Castilian Spanish). Naturally, the party couches its policies in the language of progress and centralism. It does not refer to itself as nationalist. This does not prevent it from being so. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 16:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Floquenbeam - you're right re: vandalism. I've removed that naughty word. 'Federalist' doesn't hack it because actually, UPyD believes in the opposite of a federal system. The problem here (I think) is that UPyD describe themselves as being 'anti-nationalist' (when referring to Basque and Catalan nationalists), and certainly their supporters consider 'nationalist' to be a pejorative term. It's this feeling that nationalism=bad which clearly worries IP. While I accept that an agreement is needed here, I don't think the issue is intricate enough to justify removing nationalism from the infobox. I'm convinced that if IP and I can agree on the meaning of nationalism, (s)he will agree that it ought to be included. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 08:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Rosa Díez refuses the idea of considering upyd as a nationalist party, in fact, they have said a lot of times that they support a distribution of powers similar to Germany's federal system (the landers). As an user said below, they have said many times that they don't defend the union of the country as a question of feelings, but a question of equality for all the spanish citizens. I would like to say too that this page in wikipedia en español divides the ideologies section in two. One of them talks about how the party defines itself and the other one talks about how different mass media defines this party.Talking about the party's feelings about nationalist parties, it's true that it strongly criticizes an excesive power of nationalist parties in spanish parliament and citizens lives. Finally, I have to to say that in order to mantain this article's neutral point of view, I think we must clarify how the party defines itself and how other parties defines it. --Manuel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.169.44 ( talk) 21:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The text says that the party is neo-conservative, but it doesn't explain it. The explanations given in the same paragraph only mention the views of UPD on centralisation/federalism issues, but have nothing to do with left/right issues.
Furthermore, the party is self-defined as progressive.
I think the first sentence of the paragraph ("It is a neo-conservative party") should be removed (unless more explanations are given).
In Rosa Díez's recent editorial in El País, she more concretely positions UPyD as a Spanish nationalist party.
Frente a quienes quieren construir una “patria” pequeña rompiendo la lealtad entre conciudadanos españoles, nosotros defendemos la unidad de la nación española como un instrumento imprescindible para garantizar la igualdad de todos los ciudadanos, unidos por vínculos de solidaridad y propietarios de todo el país. [...] En los seis años de vida de nuestro partido hemos explicado muchas veces que nacimos para defender el Estado, aportando a la vertebración del país el discurso y el compromiso de un partido inequívocamente nacional y laico, nada dogmático ni fundamentalista, que defiende el protagonismo de la ciudadanía en la tarea de regenerar la democracia.[ http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/03/opinion/1380817310_590254.html
In my opinion, it would be absurd to persist in identifying UPyD as an 'anti-nationalist' party following this clarification of its aims. It exists 'to defend the [Spanish] State' and is described as being 'unequivocally secular and national'. I propose that the entry be amended to include 'Nationalist' and 'Unionist' under ideology. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 10:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: it would be politer traduce the text that you add in order to can be understand by our colleagues:
"In front of those who want build a small "homeland" broking the loyalty between spanish citizens, we defend the unity of the spanish nation as an indispensable instrument in order to warrant the equality between all the citizens, united by supportive bonds and owners of the whole country. [...] Since the party was founded six years ago, we have explain a lot of times that we were born to defend the State, contributing for the vertebration of the country with a discourse and a comprimise of a party unequivocally national and lay, neither dogmatic nor fundamentalist, with the objetive of the defense of the citizenship prominence in the task of regenerate the democracy.
-- Macalla Spain ( talk) 01:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello, the definition of this political party it is wrong:
-Spanish nationalism :It is incoherent that the party is bieng define has "antinacionalism" and "nationalism" at the same time. This party acts against all kind of nationalism, spanish o basque. When the leaders of this party refer to "spaniard" they just talk about people who is spanish, not who "think that being spanish is better that being from other country" There a quite diference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
-The party aslo defines its self as Constitutional patriotism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_patriotism )Point I.13 http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/secciones/367/Partido_y_regeneracion_democratica
-Another mistake in "politic position". The party defines it self in the trasnversalism way, that is in fact a way to aboid any politic position. Here we have the information Point I.13 http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/secciones/367/Partido_y_regeneracion_democratica and a spanis wiki article http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transversalismo
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.172.137 ( talk) 17:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, anon. Please see above, and the article cited by me from El País, written by Rosa Díez. It doesn't matter if UPyD declares itself to be 'anti nationalist' despite a clearly Spanish nationalist platform, just as one could argue that it doesn't matter if the PSOE calls itself a 'Socialist Workers' Party' when it is nothing of the sort! I agree that there is an absurdity in calling the party both anti-nationalist and Spanish nationalist. The item to remove is not Spanish nationalist but anti-nationalist. perhaps it could be rephrased as 'anti-regionalist' or opposition to Basque and Catalan nationalism. one point indivdually:
- in what way does the party operate against Spanish nationalism? By asserting the primacy of the nation of Spain above any suggestion of nationhood for the Basque Country or Catalonia, UPyD is adopting a Spanish nationalist position. There is no way around this, I'm afraid. If Díez didn't describe her party as "inequívocamente nacional", there would be perhaps more room for discussion. Throughout this debate, I think it's best not to consider 'nationalist' to be a negative term but rather a neutral, descriptive one. This makes it easier to think clearly about the party's true position. Tomclarke ( talk) 12:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
"La asunción de la unidad nacional en los términos ilustrados del "patriotismo constitucional" es una idea adecuada para UPyD, pero la reivindicación o defensa de una nación unida desde la noche de los tiempos, ligada por lazos lingüísticos, étnicos o míticos prepolíticos, no puede serlo."
The acceptance of the national unity in the terms of the "constitutional patriotism" is an appropriate idea for UPyD, but the vindication or defense of an united nation lost in the mists of time, bounded by linguistic, etnic or mythic pre-politics bonds, it cannot be. [1]
In any case, define the UPyD ideology's as Opposition to Basque and Catalan nationalism is an interested libel. It's an exercise of egocentrism by this ideologies to say that, considering that UPyD decline any kind of nationalisms, bigger or smaller as it said. Another gratuitous libel it's consider that UPyD wants to change the electoral law that allegedly favours regionalist parties from Spain's autonomous communities. UPyD wants to change de voting system in order to get a more proportional representation of the votes, not to damage another parties; it's an evidence that with 4.7% of vote UPyD has 5 seats and IU with the 6.9% 9 seats and, for example, Amaiur with 1.4% has 7 seats and CiU with 4.2% 16 seats. Also, when it's said that Instead, it wants to strengthen the central government and the concept of a unitary Spanish nation., that's not really correct. UPyD wants an stronger central (federal) goverment in order to warrant the equality between spaniards, not invoking an mystic or sentimental nationalism unity. [2] I'm going to collect references and then i will change this things.-- Macalla Spain ( talk) 00:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
The official Spanish name of the party is "Unión Progreso y Democracia" (no comma!), which translates to "Progress and Democracy Union" ('union' being used as a synonym for 'political party' or 'alliance'). The party never had a comma in its name, although some sources do in fact incorrectly use the name with a comma. The official name can be found in the party's publications, including the central website, and in Article 1 of the party's statutes. Similarly, official documents (like election ballots) never add a comma to the party name. -- Hvd69 ( talk) 13:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:Results in Google:
Tienes muy mala memoria para saber 6 idiomas. Javier93h ( talk) 16:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC) Yes, the party NEVER add a comma to the party's name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Moreover, the party has used the name with comma in some official documents and in their page webs: "Así pues, el compromiso con la senda establecida de reducción del deficit público, en la situación actual, es una prioridad para Unión, Progreso y Democracia.", [3], "Cristiano Brown Sansevero, Portavoz del Grupo Municipal de Unión, Progreso y Democracia en el Ayuntamiento de Las Rozas de Madrid", "Por todo ello, Unión, Progreso y Democracia (UPyD), por medio de su Diputada, Rosa Díez González, encuadrada dentro del Grupo Parlamentario Mixto, presenta esta enmienda a la totalidad", "Auspiciado por el partido político Unión, Progreso y Democracia (UPyD), fue constituida a principios de 2009", UPyD Gijón, UPyD Castilla-La Mancha, UPyD Alcázar de San Juan,… — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 22:34, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Summing up, one more time, as concise as possible:
Where do you see any interpretation in these simple statements? Please be precise: which of these points do you not agree with? And on what grounds other than "I know the truth"? (By the way, that in Spanish, a single political party could not possibly have the name "unión" is a totally incorrect statement, and can easily be disproved by the examples of the perfectly correct party names "Unión del Pueblo Navarro", "Unión Democrática de Cataluña" and several more.) -- Hvd69 ( talk) 16:55, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. The discussion has been contaminated by the use of sockpuppets, and had few other participants.
User:Noyster, who emailed the party seeking clarification, has not indicated whether any response was received.
I could relist the discussion again, but in view of the sockpuppetry it seems better to close this discussion and allow editors to make a fresh proposal at some future date. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
12:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy →
Progress and Democracy Union – The existing article title is a wrong translation of the party's Spanish name: "Unión Progreso y Democracia".
WP:EU: In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader.
1- The party's official denomination is clearly laid down in article 1 of its statutes ("Denominación") as "Unión Progreso y Democracia", not any other version, no comma (source:
Estatutos, UPyD website);
2- In Spanish (as in English), the word "unión" has various meanings, one of them being "political party" or "alliance". Several Spanish political parties use "unión" in that sense in their denomination. (Examples: "Unión del Pueblo Navarro", "Unión Independiente de Carreño", "Unión por Leganés" etc; authoritative dictionary definition:
DRAE, see point 8);
3- "Unión Progreso y Democracia" translates to "Progress and Democracy Union", an alternative translation (of the same meaning) is "Union for Progress and Democracy". Both are equally correct, both should be stated in the article's introduction. Some quality sources for "Progress and Democracy Union":
BBC News,
Revista Latina de Comunicación,
Global Post,
Encyclopedia Britannica,
Barcelona Centre for International Studies. Some quality sources for "Union for Progress and Democracy":
The Economist,
Press TV,
Wall Street Journal,
Reuters,
The Guardian;
4- The variation "Union, Progress and Democracy" (although used by some sources) is obviously a translation of "Unión, Progreso y Democracia" (for which there are also some sources), obviously has a different meaning from "Progress and Democracy Union" and is not compatible with the official name of the party in Spanish as defined and used by the party itself and the vast majority of sources. --Relisted.
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs) 12:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC) --
Hvd69 (
talk)
23:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
(sock puppet contribution deleted)
(sock puppet contribution deleted)
As suspected, this discussion has been proven to be manipulated by Javier93h and his sock puppet Sussie17 (possibly including additional IPs). These two user accounts are now blocked indefinitely, and I have deleted the corresponding manipulative posts ( WP:SOCK: ″the misuse of multiple accounts constitutes a serious breach of community trust″). I would therefore suggest to start a serious and open exchange of views among legitimate users, backed up with facts and sources and taking into account the points raised so far. Thanks. -- Hvd69 ( talk) 14:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
All political parties foundations have in their names the word foundation (fundación). If a foundation hasn't got any preposition and any adjective, the word foundation will simply indicated that is a foundation and next words are the name of the foundation. For example, Fundación Siglo XXI will be in English Foundation 21st century but never Foundation for 21st century, Foundation of 21st century or 21st century Foundation. This is also the case of Foundation Progress and Democracy, the name of this foundation is Progress and Democracy, the word foundation only marks that it's a political foundation whose name is Progress and Democracy such as Party (partido) in Party Family and Life (Partido Familia y Vida), which only marks that it's a political party whose name is Family and Life.
Wow, that is a long list! But it doesn't help with the translation to English, does it? It only confirms the obvious: In Spanish, the word "fundación" comes first. In English, you typically have either "Foundation for XYZ" (eg "Foundation for Marxist Studies") or "XYZ Foundation" (eg "Rafael Campalans Foundation"). Your example "Fundación siglo XXI" is a good case in point: a " Twenty-First Century Foundation" exists in English, but "Foundation 21st century" would be against the norms of English-language usage. The English equivalent of " Fundación Ford" is NOT "Foundation Ford" but "Ford Foundation". -- Hvd69 ( talk) 14:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent edits adding a note to the lead as they're unnecessary. The article doesn't use those names anywhere, so we don't need to prove a negative here, any more than we need to add a note to the lead of the article sky saying that the sky isn't brown. Furthermore, the appearance of yet another Spain-based account, fixated on "proving" what the party's name is, is strongly suggestive of blocked sockmaster User:Javier93h. I've already advised Javier93h on my talk page that he should stop socking and seek an unblock. Until he is unblocked, users will be justified in reverting any likely socks of his on sight. Valenciano ( talk) 15:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 13:10, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy →
Union Progress and Democracy – The official party name in Spanish doesn't include a comma, and therefore the correct translation of the name in English should not include it Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 13:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC) --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 05:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC) –
Sfs90 (
talk)
00:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
It's merely stylization. Lucy1994 ( talk) 20:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I was trying to verify Javier93h's claim that the version with a comma was “used many times as party's official denomination” (note 1 in article). The first two references he provides concern the European Parliament. I therefore contacted the secretariat of the
EP's Directorate-General for Translation (DGTRAD) (responsible for the correct use of official denominations across all documents of the European Parliament) and have received this response (my emphasis added):
“Thank you for your email. According to our knowledge the name of the Spanish party “Unión Progreso y Democracia” should indeed be written without a comma. Thank you for pointing this out. We are currently working on correcting it in our documentation and seeking to ensure a consistent use of the correct form in the future. Kind regards, DG Translation Secretariat”
I also contacted
"Fundéu BBVA – Fundación del Español Urgente", run by the Spanish news agency
EFE in cooperation with
Real Academia Española, the highest Spanish language authority. Fundéu offers a professional consultation service specifically designed to clear up cases of doubt. This was their response (my emphasis added):
“En respuesta a su consulta Unión Progreso y Democracia: El nombre propio completo, según lo emplean ellos mismos en sus comunicaciones, es sin coma. Saludos cordiales.”
In English: “In response to your request 'Unión Progreso y Democracia': The full proper name, according to their own use of it in their communications, is without comma. Kind regards.”
Summing up: No comma! Adding a comma (in Spanish or in English) is a misinterpretation, however frequently found and however forcefully advocated by Javier93h. --
Hvd69 (
talk)
14:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa ( talk) 06:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy → Union Progress and Democracy – Per talk page Sfs90 ( talk) 21:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
There was a strong consensus not to move above at #Requested move 25 February 2015 so I've closed it as not moved, but was tempted to relist and ask the contributors to consider WP:AT, the article name policy, which most (not all) of the discussion there and at #Statements from European Parliament's Directorate-General for Translations and from "Fundéu" (EFE/RAE) on party name above it seems to ignore.
Spanish phrasing is irrelevant, this is English Wikipedia. Official translations are almost irrelevant in the same way as official names, they would only win the day if we did not have any reliable English-language sources. Do we have such? We seem to, and nobody has suggested otherwise.
The first English language reference in the article is currently to a web page at http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/22/inenglish/1369228317_043995.html and that page uses Union, Progress and Democracy. The page is the online English version of el país and is well written. It appears to be a reliable source in terms of WP:AT, so that's evidence that the current article name is both acceptable and correct.
Any further move proposal should provide similar evidence that the proposed name is both acceptable and in some way superior to the current name, in terms of WP:AT of course. Andrewa ( talk) 07:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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I see a clear case of WP:REFBOMB on the "Ideology" given in the infobox of this party. Do we have to review and publish here ANY source that says that UPyD have some class of ideology. It looks to me a publicity stunt rather than valid editions, made by IPs. I suggest a cleaning of that infobox, and delete some sources that do not apply there. -- Sfs90 ( talk) 23:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
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It has just been announced today (6th of december, 2020) that the party is closing down.
Source: Cristiano Brown (Party president) announcement on Twitter. https://twitter.com/Cristiano_Brown/status/1335662680745648131 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.60.148.134 ( talk) 20:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I asked about this issue at the Teahouse and received this response:
I feel that my cited reference to Rosa Diez's newspaper article as well as this source, subsequently deleted by BernardaAlba (which I shall now restore), provide sufficient grounds for maintaining the inclusion of this item in the Ideology section. This will help readers more than not including it. I'll also try to create a section in the main article to explain the party's position on nationalism more clearly.
I would also argue that further removal of this item without prior discussion should be considered vandalism because absolutely no attempt has been made to establish consensus against this term. Tomclarke ( talk) 15:59, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I see how this party has been described as "anti-nationalist" by Wikipedia. I think there is a difference about what a party calls itself, and what it really is. This is actually the strongest nationalist party in Spain, representing Spanish nationalism. I would agree on changing this description: using the word "Spanish nationalist" or simply removing the adjective "anti-nationalist" from its description. -- Pa-integral ( talk) 16:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I have corrected the classification to 'Nationalism'. This is a more accurate classification than 'anti-nationalism'.-- Tomclarke ( talk) 10:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Its ideology does not focus on a strong and traditional idea of the Spanish Nation. It focuses on the ineffectiveness of a very descentralized country. Actually Spain is the most politically descentralized country in Europe, and they think that is the cause of so many problems: linguistic problems such as the obligation to study in catalan in Catalonia and Balears Islands, health care problems (having 17 public health care systems instead of one), etc. UPyD politicians never use the Spanish flag for their events. In conslusion, it is more about Spanish constitutionalism than nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.147.185.18 ( talk) 18:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
An unsigned change, right on election day. I'm reverting the page to include the reference to Spanish nationalism on the grounds that although nationalism may not be UPyD's most important focus, it is a clear and relevant element of the party's ideology and intent. --
Tomclarke (
talk)
18:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
A nationalist has a strong concept of the nation, based on elements such as traditions, history. UPyD just defends a more centralized political system in order to make it more effective. Actually it support all languages in the country to be official and people can decide which one they want to speak on the contrary nationalists defend, either Spanish nationalists or separatists (Spanish over regional languages, in the first case, and the opposite in the second case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.59.70.26 ( talk) 14:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
An example of UPyD's Spanish nationalism:
"...quiero empezar por reivindicar la importancia de defender la unidad de la Nación española como el único instrumento capaz de garantizar la igualdad de todos los españoles ante la ley. Y digo esto porque una buena parte de los males que aquejan nuestro país son consecuencia de un proceso de fragmentación del Estado al que nos ha conducido la nefasta política aplicada por su Gobierno, en esta y en la pasada legislatura. Una política que ha convertido al Gobierno de la Nación en un mero coordinador de las Comunidades Autónomas; una política que han tenido como consecuencia el debilitamiento de la cohesión y el incremento de la desigualdad entre españoles. " (my emphasis) - apologies that it's in Spanish.
Taken from the UPyD address during the State of the Nation debate in Madrid. Your argument that UPyD 'supports all languages in the country' is nonsense as the party has stated that its primary aim is to dissolve the Autonomous Communities in Spain, in order to establish a single nation with one official language (Castilian Spanish). Naturally, the party couches its policies in the language of progress and centralism. It does not refer to itself as nationalist. This does not prevent it from being so. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 16:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Floquenbeam - you're right re: vandalism. I've removed that naughty word. 'Federalist' doesn't hack it because actually, UPyD believes in the opposite of a federal system. The problem here (I think) is that UPyD describe themselves as being 'anti-nationalist' (when referring to Basque and Catalan nationalists), and certainly their supporters consider 'nationalist' to be a pejorative term. It's this feeling that nationalism=bad which clearly worries IP. While I accept that an agreement is needed here, I don't think the issue is intricate enough to justify removing nationalism from the infobox. I'm convinced that if IP and I can agree on the meaning of nationalism, (s)he will agree that it ought to be included. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 08:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Rosa Díez refuses the idea of considering upyd as a nationalist party, in fact, they have said a lot of times that they support a distribution of powers similar to Germany's federal system (the landers). As an user said below, they have said many times that they don't defend the union of the country as a question of feelings, but a question of equality for all the spanish citizens. I would like to say too that this page in wikipedia en español divides the ideologies section in two. One of them talks about how the party defines itself and the other one talks about how different mass media defines this party.Talking about the party's feelings about nationalist parties, it's true that it strongly criticizes an excesive power of nationalist parties in spanish parliament and citizens lives. Finally, I have to to say that in order to mantain this article's neutral point of view, I think we must clarify how the party defines itself and how other parties defines it. --Manuel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.5.169.44 ( talk) 21:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The text says that the party is neo-conservative, but it doesn't explain it. The explanations given in the same paragraph only mention the views of UPD on centralisation/federalism issues, but have nothing to do with left/right issues.
Furthermore, the party is self-defined as progressive.
I think the first sentence of the paragraph ("It is a neo-conservative party") should be removed (unless more explanations are given).
In Rosa Díez's recent editorial in El País, she more concretely positions UPyD as a Spanish nationalist party.
Frente a quienes quieren construir una “patria” pequeña rompiendo la lealtad entre conciudadanos españoles, nosotros defendemos la unidad de la nación española como un instrumento imprescindible para garantizar la igualdad de todos los ciudadanos, unidos por vínculos de solidaridad y propietarios de todo el país. [...] En los seis años de vida de nuestro partido hemos explicado muchas veces que nacimos para defender el Estado, aportando a la vertebración del país el discurso y el compromiso de un partido inequívocamente nacional y laico, nada dogmático ni fundamentalista, que defiende el protagonismo de la ciudadanía en la tarea de regenerar la democracia.[ http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/03/opinion/1380817310_590254.html
In my opinion, it would be absurd to persist in identifying UPyD as an 'anti-nationalist' party following this clarification of its aims. It exists 'to defend the [Spanish] State' and is described as being 'unequivocally secular and national'. I propose that the entry be amended to include 'Nationalist' and 'Unionist' under ideology. -- Tomclarke ( talk) 10:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
P.S.: it would be politer traduce the text that you add in order to can be understand by our colleagues:
"In front of those who want build a small "homeland" broking the loyalty between spanish citizens, we defend the unity of the spanish nation as an indispensable instrument in order to warrant the equality between all the citizens, united by supportive bonds and owners of the whole country. [...] Since the party was founded six years ago, we have explain a lot of times that we were born to defend the State, contributing for the vertebration of the country with a discourse and a comprimise of a party unequivocally national and lay, neither dogmatic nor fundamentalist, with the objetive of the defense of the citizenship prominence in the task of regenerate the democracy.
-- Macalla Spain ( talk) 01:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello, the definition of this political party it is wrong:
-Spanish nationalism :It is incoherent that the party is bieng define has "antinacionalism" and "nationalism" at the same time. This party acts against all kind of nationalism, spanish o basque. When the leaders of this party refer to "spaniard" they just talk about people who is spanish, not who "think that being spanish is better that being from other country" There a quite diference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
-The party aslo defines its self as Constitutional patriotism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_patriotism )Point I.13 http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/secciones/367/Partido_y_regeneracion_democratica
-Another mistake in "politic position". The party defines it self in the trasnversalism way, that is in fact a way to aboid any politic position. Here we have the information Point I.13 http://www.upyd.es/contenidos/secciones/367/Partido_y_regeneracion_democratica and a spanis wiki article http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transversalismo
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.25.172.137 ( talk) 17:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, anon. Please see above, and the article cited by me from El País, written by Rosa Díez. It doesn't matter if UPyD declares itself to be 'anti nationalist' despite a clearly Spanish nationalist platform, just as one could argue that it doesn't matter if the PSOE calls itself a 'Socialist Workers' Party' when it is nothing of the sort! I agree that there is an absurdity in calling the party both anti-nationalist and Spanish nationalist. The item to remove is not Spanish nationalist but anti-nationalist. perhaps it could be rephrased as 'anti-regionalist' or opposition to Basque and Catalan nationalism. one point indivdually:
- in what way does the party operate against Spanish nationalism? By asserting the primacy of the nation of Spain above any suggestion of nationhood for the Basque Country or Catalonia, UPyD is adopting a Spanish nationalist position. There is no way around this, I'm afraid. If Díez didn't describe her party as "inequívocamente nacional", there would be perhaps more room for discussion. Throughout this debate, I think it's best not to consider 'nationalist' to be a negative term but rather a neutral, descriptive one. This makes it easier to think clearly about the party's true position. Tomclarke ( talk) 12:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
"La asunción de la unidad nacional en los términos ilustrados del "patriotismo constitucional" es una idea adecuada para UPyD, pero la reivindicación o defensa de una nación unida desde la noche de los tiempos, ligada por lazos lingüísticos, étnicos o míticos prepolíticos, no puede serlo."
The acceptance of the national unity in the terms of the "constitutional patriotism" is an appropriate idea for UPyD, but the vindication or defense of an united nation lost in the mists of time, bounded by linguistic, etnic or mythic pre-politics bonds, it cannot be. [1]
In any case, define the UPyD ideology's as Opposition to Basque and Catalan nationalism is an interested libel. It's an exercise of egocentrism by this ideologies to say that, considering that UPyD decline any kind of nationalisms, bigger or smaller as it said. Another gratuitous libel it's consider that UPyD wants to change the electoral law that allegedly favours regionalist parties from Spain's autonomous communities. UPyD wants to change de voting system in order to get a more proportional representation of the votes, not to damage another parties; it's an evidence that with 4.7% of vote UPyD has 5 seats and IU with the 6.9% 9 seats and, for example, Amaiur with 1.4% has 7 seats and CiU with 4.2% 16 seats. Also, when it's said that Instead, it wants to strengthen the central government and the concept of a unitary Spanish nation., that's not really correct. UPyD wants an stronger central (federal) goverment in order to warrant the equality between spaniards, not invoking an mystic or sentimental nationalism unity. [2] I'm going to collect references and then i will change this things.-- Macalla Spain ( talk) 00:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
The official Spanish name of the party is "Unión Progreso y Democracia" (no comma!), which translates to "Progress and Democracy Union" ('union' being used as a synonym for 'political party' or 'alliance'). The party never had a comma in its name, although some sources do in fact incorrectly use the name with a comma. The official name can be found in the party's publications, including the central website, and in Article 1 of the party's statutes. Similarly, official documents (like election ballots) never add a comma to the party name. -- Hvd69 ( talk) 13:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:Results in Google:
Tienes muy mala memoria para saber 6 idiomas. Javier93h ( talk) 16:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC) Yes, the party NEVER add a comma to the party's name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Moreover, the party has used the name with comma in some official documents and in their page webs: "Así pues, el compromiso con la senda establecida de reducción del deficit público, en la situación actual, es una prioridad para Unión, Progreso y Democracia.", [3], "Cristiano Brown Sansevero, Portavoz del Grupo Municipal de Unión, Progreso y Democracia en el Ayuntamiento de Las Rozas de Madrid", "Por todo ello, Unión, Progreso y Democracia (UPyD), por medio de su Diputada, Rosa Díez González, encuadrada dentro del Grupo Parlamentario Mixto, presenta esta enmienda a la totalidad", "Auspiciado por el partido político Unión, Progreso y Democracia (UPyD), fue constituida a principios de 2009", UPyD Gijón, UPyD Castilla-La Mancha, UPyD Alcázar de San Juan,… — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 18:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Javier93h ( talk • contribs) 22:34, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Summing up, one more time, as concise as possible:
Where do you see any interpretation in these simple statements? Please be precise: which of these points do you not agree with? And on what grounds other than "I know the truth"? (By the way, that in Spanish, a single political party could not possibly have the name "unión" is a totally incorrect statement, and can easily be disproved by the examples of the perfectly correct party names "Unión del Pueblo Navarro", "Unión Democrática de Cataluña" and several more.) -- Hvd69 ( talk) 16:55, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. The discussion has been contaminated by the use of sockpuppets, and had few other participants.
User:Noyster, who emailed the party seeking clarification, has not indicated whether any response was received.
I could relist the discussion again, but in view of the sockpuppetry it seems better to close this discussion and allow editors to make a fresh proposal at some future date. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
12:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy →
Progress and Democracy Union – The existing article title is a wrong translation of the party's Spanish name: "Unión Progreso y Democracia".
WP:EU: In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader.
1- The party's official denomination is clearly laid down in article 1 of its statutes ("Denominación") as "Unión Progreso y Democracia", not any other version, no comma (source:
Estatutos, UPyD website);
2- In Spanish (as in English), the word "unión" has various meanings, one of them being "political party" or "alliance". Several Spanish political parties use "unión" in that sense in their denomination. (Examples: "Unión del Pueblo Navarro", "Unión Independiente de Carreño", "Unión por Leganés" etc; authoritative dictionary definition:
DRAE, see point 8);
3- "Unión Progreso y Democracia" translates to "Progress and Democracy Union", an alternative translation (of the same meaning) is "Union for Progress and Democracy". Both are equally correct, both should be stated in the article's introduction. Some quality sources for "Progress and Democracy Union":
BBC News,
Revista Latina de Comunicación,
Global Post,
Encyclopedia Britannica,
Barcelona Centre for International Studies. Some quality sources for "Union for Progress and Democracy":
The Economist,
Press TV,
Wall Street Journal,
Reuters,
The Guardian;
4- The variation "Union, Progress and Democracy" (although used by some sources) is obviously a translation of "Unión, Progreso y Democracia" (for which there are also some sources), obviously has a different meaning from "Progress and Democracy Union" and is not compatible with the official name of the party in Spanish as defined and used by the party itself and the vast majority of sources. --Relisted.
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs) 12:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC) --
Hvd69 (
talk)
23:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
(sock puppet contribution deleted)
(sock puppet contribution deleted)
As suspected, this discussion has been proven to be manipulated by Javier93h and his sock puppet Sussie17 (possibly including additional IPs). These two user accounts are now blocked indefinitely, and I have deleted the corresponding manipulative posts ( WP:SOCK: ″the misuse of multiple accounts constitutes a serious breach of community trust″). I would therefore suggest to start a serious and open exchange of views among legitimate users, backed up with facts and sources and taking into account the points raised so far. Thanks. -- Hvd69 ( talk) 14:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
All political parties foundations have in their names the word foundation (fundación). If a foundation hasn't got any preposition and any adjective, the word foundation will simply indicated that is a foundation and next words are the name of the foundation. For example, Fundación Siglo XXI will be in English Foundation 21st century but never Foundation for 21st century, Foundation of 21st century or 21st century Foundation. This is also the case of Foundation Progress and Democracy, the name of this foundation is Progress and Democracy, the word foundation only marks that it's a political foundation whose name is Progress and Democracy such as Party (partido) in Party Family and Life (Partido Familia y Vida), which only marks that it's a political party whose name is Family and Life.
Wow, that is a long list! But it doesn't help with the translation to English, does it? It only confirms the obvious: In Spanish, the word "fundación" comes first. In English, you typically have either "Foundation for XYZ" (eg "Foundation for Marxist Studies") or "XYZ Foundation" (eg "Rafael Campalans Foundation"). Your example "Fundación siglo XXI" is a good case in point: a " Twenty-First Century Foundation" exists in English, but "Foundation 21st century" would be against the norms of English-language usage. The English equivalent of " Fundación Ford" is NOT "Foundation Ford" but "Ford Foundation". -- Hvd69 ( talk) 14:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted the recent edits adding a note to the lead as they're unnecessary. The article doesn't use those names anywhere, so we don't need to prove a negative here, any more than we need to add a note to the lead of the article sky saying that the sky isn't brown. Furthermore, the appearance of yet another Spain-based account, fixated on "proving" what the party's name is, is strongly suggestive of blocked sockmaster User:Javier93h. I've already advised Javier93h on my talk page that he should stop socking and seek an unblock. Until he is unblocked, users will be justified in reverting any likely socks of his on sight. Valenciano ( talk) 15:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 13:10, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy →
Union Progress and Democracy – The official party name in Spanish doesn't include a comma, and therefore the correct translation of the name in English should not include it Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 13:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC) --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 05:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC) –
Sfs90 (
talk)
00:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
It's merely stylization. Lucy1994 ( talk) 20:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I was trying to verify Javier93h's claim that the version with a comma was “used many times as party's official denomination” (note 1 in article). The first two references he provides concern the European Parliament. I therefore contacted the secretariat of the
EP's Directorate-General for Translation (DGTRAD) (responsible for the correct use of official denominations across all documents of the European Parliament) and have received this response (my emphasis added):
“Thank you for your email. According to our knowledge the name of the Spanish party “Unión Progreso y Democracia” should indeed be written without a comma. Thank you for pointing this out. We are currently working on correcting it in our documentation and seeking to ensure a consistent use of the correct form in the future. Kind regards, DG Translation Secretariat”
I also contacted
"Fundéu BBVA – Fundación del Español Urgente", run by the Spanish news agency
EFE in cooperation with
Real Academia Española, the highest Spanish language authority. Fundéu offers a professional consultation service specifically designed to clear up cases of doubt. This was their response (my emphasis added):
“En respuesta a su consulta Unión Progreso y Democracia: El nombre propio completo, según lo emplean ellos mismos en sus comunicaciones, es sin coma. Saludos cordiales.”
In English: “In response to your request 'Unión Progreso y Democracia': The full proper name, according to their own use of it in their communications, is without comma. Kind regards.”
Summing up: No comma! Adding a comma (in Spanish or in English) is a misinterpretation, however frequently found and however forcefully advocated by Javier93h. --
Hvd69 (
talk)
14:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa ( talk) 06:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Union, Progress and Democracy → Union Progress and Democracy – Per talk page Sfs90 ( talk) 21:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
There was a strong consensus not to move above at #Requested move 25 February 2015 so I've closed it as not moved, but was tempted to relist and ask the contributors to consider WP:AT, the article name policy, which most (not all) of the discussion there and at #Statements from European Parliament's Directorate-General for Translations and from "Fundéu" (EFE/RAE) on party name above it seems to ignore.
Spanish phrasing is irrelevant, this is English Wikipedia. Official translations are almost irrelevant in the same way as official names, they would only win the day if we did not have any reliable English-language sources. Do we have such? We seem to, and nobody has suggested otherwise.
The first English language reference in the article is currently to a web page at http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/22/inenglish/1369228317_043995.html and that page uses Union, Progress and Democracy. The page is the online English version of el país and is well written. It appears to be a reliable source in terms of WP:AT, so that's evidence that the current article name is both acceptable and correct.
Any further move proposal should provide similar evidence that the proposed name is both acceptable and in some way superior to the current name, in terms of WP:AT of course. Andrewa ( talk) 07:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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I see a clear case of WP:REFBOMB on the "Ideology" given in the infobox of this party. Do we have to review and publish here ANY source that says that UPyD have some class of ideology. It looks to me a publicity stunt rather than valid editions, made by IPs. I suggest a cleaning of that infobox, and delete some sources that do not apply there. -- Sfs90 ( talk) 23:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
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