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I would like to contribute on the subject of UFOs, trim and even break-up the current article, but I would like to co-ordinate things with other editors genuinely interested in the subject, so there is some "consensus" on how to approach this (unfortunately, due to 50+yrs of officialdom psy-ops, very controversial) subject.
The current article uses words like "claimed", "alleged", "hypothetical", "supposed" in every other sentence. Meanwhile (from MUFON Fast Facts according to a Roper poll conducted in 2002 for the SciFi channel, one in seven Americans say they or someone they know has had an experience involving a UFO source and a CNN 1997 poll showed that 80% of Americans think government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms .
On objectivity, one need look no further than e.g. Wikipedia categorising UFO in the paranormal category, a/k/a supernatural (definition: "forces and phenomena which are are not observed in nature, and therefore beyond verifiable measurement"). This contradicts the abudance of physical evidence (50yrs of countless visual sighting reports by credible witnesses, some with close-up photos, airborne and ground radar, testimonies from 100+ of former government and military witnesses in DisclosureProject in 2001, etc)
So, do we want to "[ pull a Condon]" i.e. pretend to be factual and scientific? Incidentally, the "Condon Report" has been the last "official" UFO study (in US) since 1969! The psy-ops have resulted in practically no mainstream scientists touching the subject. In addition, the modern computer photo and video editing capabilities render any recent photo/video taken by "mere mortals" open to authenticity criticism. As a result, the most recent "authoritative" (officialdom, to be acceptable to the pseudo-skeptics) sources we cite on the Wikipedia UFO page are 40yrs old photos, whereas new UFO photos and videos get published every day!
To open minded skeptics (vs pseudo-skeptics) and agnostics: in ancient Greece, they said "μηδενί δίκην δικάσεις πριν αμφοίν μύθον ακούσεις" (as a judge in a trial, never reach an conclusion until hearing both sides), so at the risk of repeating myself I'd like to once again suggest watching the videos
and looking at the photos, reading the stories1 or stories2 (unfiltered, most are probably identifiable). Dhatz 00:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
There are some rather hostile comments about not adding external links to this page, but I think there are many infos still missing, which would allow the interested visitor to Wikipedia to form an INFORMED opinion about UFO. I've added a few links which offer IMO the most "bang-for-the-buck", i.e. most info in the least time. There are also the videos from Dr Greer's Disclosure Project (now available from Google Video). The "Out of the Blue" video documentary is also very good to get started.
Anyway, here are the links I added, I've found them all quite interesting.
I'd also like to add that it's clear that governments (esp. USA) are trying very hard to "explain away" the phenomenon and suppress it by ridiculing and discrediting anyone who dared to report sightings in past decades. Perhaps they are correct, if they think that it'll result into panic of the masses, and the media and "scientific community" mostly play along (as one member of US Congress put it, "at some point you have to decide your soul or your job and I guess to many people their job is more important"), but I'm not so sure that a really free Internet medium like Wikipedia should adopt the position of pseudo-skeptics (a/k/a "Flat Earth Society" members).
Yet, not all governments adopt the "black-is-white" orwelian Ministry of Truth position. E.g. Belgian and Mexican AirForce shared the radar videos with the public. The French COMETA report (1999) prepared by high level officials has been very close to supporting the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and was released into the public as a precaution to "preclude it from disappearing into a government black-hole" (per its editors' own wording).
Dhatz 17:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The Disclosure Project at www.disclosureproject.org presents a range of evidence that is most relevant to this article, yet remains unmentioned, a serious omission.
This site has some great UFO Video Evidence. -- Arltomem 05:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is a video that shows the apollo 11 astronauts faking their voyage using trick photography. Classified Nasa Video
This video has since been released by NASA in 2002 after it had been leaked into the public domain.
Photos of Apollo 'test' studio.
Movie shows how moon landings were faked with life size props and models.
-- Arltomem 08:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The article now runs to 80Kb, with no clear categorisation or prioritisation of content. I propose a total overhaul, synopsizing excessively detailed sections, and providing more navigational cues by proper use of the heading/subheading structure. As a rough sketch of works I propose to undertake:
Comments, please? Adhib 21:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I like your propostion of an organized article, but with an article the size of this, that would be pretty hard to do and deleting things might not make people happy either. Oyo321 22:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The references needed a serious overhaul. I have now listed all the references using the < ref > < / ref > tagging method. This gives a clear indication of where the references are coming from without cluttering the article. Marjor problem is the amount of web sites being used as references. The article practically does not exist. ( Simonapro 09:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
The reference section is useless. There is no way of knowing which reference is being cited. This is going to need a clean up. If people here can not match the references properly then the whole article might have to come down.
The way to do this is as follows.
(1)Click edit page above and see what the text source for the next quote looks like.
"Dr. xxxxx and the editors of the Oxford & Harper Collins translations, contend that the number of Roman Emperor Nero is 92. [1], a view that is also supported by Elvis [2]."
This way the reference will automatically be given a number and entered into the notes section at the end of the article also automatically. I have prepared that notes section already. Whatever gets into that notes section stays in the article and whatever doesn't needs to be cited in the above manner or will eventually go. ( Simonapro 07:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
As an additional note over 90% of citations where to web sites. ( Simonapro 08:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
Hi, the article has some disputes so I came here to try and help after being asked to do so. The problems have already been listed before.
The first thing to do would be to bring the unlinked references into context with the article using the numbering method. After that we can proceed to look at content that has not be varified. ( Simonapro 07:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone know how the idea that a ufo looks like a frisbee ever got started? N
This happens in the press conference scene in the Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. - Zepheus 17:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I suppose the question is this: what incompetant boob (or group thereof) would agree to test "extremely advanced aircraft" around civilian and residential areas? If such is the case with the U.S. military, we need to begin another article detailing such ridiculousness. (Juliusdedekind - Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3.37 CST)
Horribly problematic. For example, the classification of the evidence is arbitrary and uncited as to when it was collected and what kind of verification it went through. What's more, some of the classification is arbitrary. Electromagnetic interference would not cause compass needles to swing freely, for example. -- ScienceApologist 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
-- ScienceApologist 15:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Which ones aren't supported by sources? Lets get to the specifics.
--
Michaelsayers 07:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Any remarks within this article should be constrained to reports of compass needle gyration in the midst of a close encounter. When the actual writers begin to apply their own reasoning with respect to their understanding of electromagnetism, we get a biased article--whether the source of the reasoning is from a "skeptic" or otherwise. I would recommend that such commentary be placed within a background of statements made by the actual investigators of the time and remove all of the remarks applied to tilt the "neutrality" of this article. In addition, I believe that a number of highly respected sources exist that can provide better reporting besides the usual awkward internet site.
In addition, one should also not overlook the source files at http://www.bluebookarchive.org/ which should be referenced wherever possible for actual witness testimony (where applicable) instead of fishing around various ufological bric-a-brac sites. -- Juliusdedekind 21:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - emphasized in the opening paragraphs of the U.F.O. article - is a statement that originated with David Hume.-- Michaelsayers 03:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have been all over the U.S. it's the same thing. IF there is alien contact, the whole planet just may revolt, some, for religious reasons, some out of revenge for being ridiculed, as persuant to protocol, such as the Robertson Panel protocol, some will revolt in reaction to the alien contact themselves, some will rebel to cause trouble. Some people have claimed that Martial Law will be implemented to ostensibly prevent violence. Martial Law 01:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need citations on nearly every sentence, I'm afraid. For such a controversial subject, which surely is subject to the maxim extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, we should be very concerned not only about our sources, but even about the sources of our sources, as was Bede. I fully expect that true-believers will continuously add mentions of UFO events that are spurious. To counter this and to make sure only the best documented events and the best evidence is presented, I think there needs to be a tripling of our effort to document every mention of UFO evidence. I would start this effort by adding "citation needed" tags to every sentence in the article that introduces evidence. I would hope this would not just get the edit reverted; it is not an attack; it is an attempt to strengthen the article. Tempshill 05:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need citations on nearly every sentence, I'm afraid.
Great! Let's start with the first few opening statements:
(1)Some people believe UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft, but most scientists and academics say there is no compelling evidence to support such a conclusion.
(2)As a result, claims that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft are generally dismissed through lack of evidence.
(3)Because of such beliefs, in pop culture, UFO is commonly used to refer to any hypothetical alien spacecraft, even ones that would be identified as such, despite the etymology.
Are these the articles of faith by the "skeptics" or do I need to start removing content because of lack of citation? -- Juliusdedekind 18:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed from the physical evidence section:
First of all, this paragraph isn't "physical evidence" and it makes a number of claims that the sources don't back up. In particular, the "research" into "reverse engineering" doesn't seem to represent very rigorous attempts and border mostly on speculation. This section relies on novel physics explanations neither peer reviewed nor accepted in the engineering or scientific communicites. The RPI link is dubious as well as I cannot seem to find any indication that this research is collaborative nor producing any results. In any case, reporting on this topic, if it is to be done here at this page, will require considerably more research and nuance than the above paragraph. -- ScienceApologist 19:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You have to see this one. The photog who shot the video has his website in this incident report: GIANT UFO seen over Phoenix, AZ.. Status: This is just now being investigated. Martial Law 20:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You better not. I am going to go through this article to insert tags asking for cites. If you can provide a reputable source, then please do it to make this article authoritative. If you can't, then don't bother trying. Moriori 06:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've never heard of such a place. Where is it? -- ScienceApologist 17:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh geez! Look at the other pictures and judge by continuity! "Passoria" is an obvious typo of Passaic, NJ, which does exist. Send a letter to the site in question and get them to fix the error. -- Juliusdedekind 20:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's one on the alleged Belgium incident: [2] Radar angel debunking: [3] Here's one from the BBC: [4].
I'm going to keep collecting them and we'll cross-reference and vet the article for errors as well as introduce the skeptical material.
-- ScienceApologist 17:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Rear Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, who became director of central intelligence in 1947, served on the N.I.C.A.P. board from 1957 until 1962.
In the U.F.O. article, presently he is identified as the first C.I.A. director: the first director of central intelligence, Sydney Sours, acquired the position in 1946. He was followed in this capacity by Hoyt Vandenberg, and then by Hillenkoetter. -- Michaelsayers 01:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed the subtitle from, "Reasons People Dislike Skeptics", to, "The Military and Intelligence Careers of Career Skeptics and Believers". This is because the surface conclusions can follow from various philosophical presuppositions - a logical positivist may be skeptical, as well as an empiricist, or a Kantian - and I have no personal dislike of, or ill-will towards, anyone on the grounds of his philosophical presuppositions. Interestingly enough, empiricism is very much in vogue these days, and persons of opposite conclusions often begin with identical (or very similar) presuppositions. More on this later. Respectfully, with well-wishing towards everyone who contributes here, -- Michaelsayers 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is that some people don't accept the fact that there are people, especially in the U.S. who will shoot at these things ? There is one report on Wikipedia itself, the Kelly-Hopkinsville Incident, in which people have shot at a UFO and have shot at aliens. I am currently in Texas, and most people will shoot first, ask questions later, if the target is still alive. Martial Law 19:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This article, as of July 2006, is very US-centric.
Other UFO anecdotes and histories need mentioning.
Since I added the Notes section some time back and requested references and citations there seems to have been some headway made. There is an increased mandate to cite everything because of the subject matter. While many articles can get away with having little to no citations, the controversial nature of the article warrants mass citation. For this reason I would propose a citation deadline for all the requested citations in the article that are currently standing (and if any more need to be made). If the deadline is not met then anything that was not cited simply gets removed and that way greater control over article content can be held in the future. Is a month from now too near, say 8th August 2006? The article is quite active. I am sure changes would press people to cite sooner rather than leaving it as it is.( Simonapro 19:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC))
8th of August is only 10 days away and counting... ( Simonapro 08:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC))
That is not wikipolicy. Wikipolicy asks for
WP:CITE. If contributors can't
WP:CITE then it shouldn't be here because that violates
WP:NOR. Sorry, policy dictates that there is a mandate to remove material that does not cite its sources. (
Simonapro 13:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
At any rate, you can test the civility by checking other articles (s.v. "holocaust," "anti-semitism," "democracy," "anarchism," "scientific method," "philosophy," "religion," "christianity," "theology," etc) and see if there is perhaps just a little bit of hypocrisy on this "citation" issue. I agree on rigorous citation of material, especially when the noisy critics like to pick at every speck of dirt.-- Juliusdedekind 05:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me like an attempt is being made to hijack control of the article content - after all, Simonapro wrote, "and that way greater control over article content can be held in the future". ScienceApologist wrote (in the talk section Resources on UFO skepticism), "we'll cross reference and vet the article for errors, as well as introduce the skeptical material". And the stated justification for this? It is that "while many articles can get away with having little to no citations, the controversial nature of the article warrants mass citation." I say that if these guys are going to play hard ball, then hard ball can be played back. No statements allowed without sources. No assumptions whatsoever. Period.
Absolutely no unsourced opinions (such as, "such skeptical attitudes adhere to a standard of research attributed to Carl Sagan"; "Skeptics say that most evidence is ultimately derived from notoriously unreliable eyewitness accounts" [which skeptics? what source, stochastic evidence is there for the unreliability of the eyewitness accounts? was it really necessary to use the word "notoriously"?]; "The remaining fraction have been labeled unidentified or unexplainable. Analyses of such cases have results that are usually ambiguous or inconclusive" [this is a totally inaccurate, unsourced position, and seems to have been written by someone who has not read Project Blue Book Special Report #14]).
The full substitution of neutral words for terminology premised on skeptical philosophical biases (such as, "some people believe that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft" [rather than "some people assert that", which would be neutral; and, by the way, it is majority per centage these days, not only "some people"]; "some cases have alleged associated physical evidence" [the evidence is not merely alleged, nor is it merely alleged that the evidence is associated with U.F.O.s]).
And, also, the inclusion of a full section on Statements by Living Government Witnesses.
Some of us have professions, and the 10-day deadline is patently unreasonable. It might only take three days of reviewing sources with a little time each day to arrive at (say) an accurate statement about the Robertson Panel - but what if everyone else is also focused on that one item for three days?
If you want the sources cited, than an organized approach, meant to be accessible for people with professional occupations, is necessary - such as the one J.Smith advised, perhaps with an item to be edited and sourced every Wednesday. If all you want to do is eliminate content you don't like, in order to "hold greater control over article content", followed by introducing the skeptical material, then you have found an excellent means to do so.
But don't expect zero resistance, or zero counter-action and zero penalties.
-- Michaelsayers 11:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE and WP:NOR mean exactly what they mean. This is across the board, for all content, be it skeptical or persuasive. The 'us' or 'them' ideology is not what this is about. This is about greater control over article content so that someone can not say absolutely anything they feel like (as they have been doing) without backing it up with WP:CITE. Frankly I don't care if it is skeptical or persuasive. If it doesn't WP:CITE it goes, and that is Wikipolicy. And this is not just a 10 day deadline. It has been asked for since the previous Achieve , half a year ago. If this stirs the pot then it doesn't matter. WP:CITE is inevitable. I am gald this is inspiring some to actually WP:CITE. That is exactly what wikipedia is about. And as for debating if something that doesn't have a WP:CITE should stay. Sorry but WP:CITE. It is just pushing the people to do the work they should have been doing all along but didn't.( Simonapro 17:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC))
There are other policies aside from
WP:CITE that need to be addressed. Such as it is, this extremely pedantic "mandate" applied to this article--a mandate, as you can see for yourself, not enforced to the same degree in other more controversial subjects--seems insincere and hypocritical. This aside from the fact that some vultures like to criticize the citation alone once it is placed. The removal of important content is inevitable when individuals do not like the content posted--regardless of the endless rationale and doctrine referenced by these noisy critics.
No need to apologize concerning the actions of content raiders who would like nothing more than to remove relevant material under the guise of "NPOV"--a doctrine misunderstood at best when taken as the "most popular view held by government officials and scientists" even if that view is radically false.
One should also examine the citation of Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 CD-ROM s.v. "unidentified flying objects" and print set--you'll find ample neutrality whereas not one single statement is cited--no references either.
I have said before that I believe in rigorous citation, but what I find in this article are lazy researchers trying to quickly invalidate content based on their inability to find the content in the source--a skill that any first-year college student would know. If there are statements that need citation, then most certainly they should be found and the comments without support should be removed. But if I find out (I keep a mirror record) that content is removed out of laziness (of either the critics or the "ufology maniacs") it will eventually find its place back into the article with ample citation and cross references for all to see--I will make sure of that.--[Juliusdedekind] 20:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Simonapro -
This encyclopaedia is a community effort, and everything posted is community property. I, too, would prefer that all things in the article have cited sources - what is being questioned isn't your preference in this regard, but rather the implementation thereof. Your position is one of an assumption of power, not community service, and of engaging in rigmarole and the planned deletion of historical facts from the article, rather than constructive participation.
You say the "us or them ideology isn't what this is about" - and yet you also say this is about "pushing the people to do the work they should have been doing all along". I should have been providing citations all these months, when I have been a community member for only a few days? "Should", according to whose authority? You have had all these months to implement a 'one item every Wednesday' requirement for rewriting the article to accurately represent the data in the sources, and also to research the sources. Instead of doing this, you place your neglect to implement (or even suggest) a community plan on everyone's shoulders, with a 10 day deadline instead (which is patently ridiculous for research and authorship about a subject with as many complexities and subtleties as the U.F.O. reports).
While certainly the U.F.O. subject is controversial, in the case of The Robertson Panel - as one example - we are dealing with a historical fact. The description in the article could benefit from editing, but well-considered editing appropriate to an encyclopaedia - and the research involved - takes time and finesse. Unless the encyclopaedia is going to pay contributors a professional fee, the work must be done as time permits - and, the work will not be of professional quality, in absolutely perfect King's English, et cetera. As a new member of the community, I feel I deserve an appropriate amount of time to work with what, too, now is my property - and to not have it destroyed and obliterated, regardless of how you have handled this matter during the last several months: you have had several months to handle it responsibly, and yet did not do so. To simply eliminate facts from the article, as you are going to do, certainly is suppression of information, is reminiscent of the encyclopaedias of Stalinist Russia, and is not an equitable solution.
It is not clear to me in what sense you are assuming this role - whether it is, or is not, a de facto assumption of power - but I will look into this to see what my true relationship to you is in this matter. You certainly seem to feel an unbridled sense of power, and to be acting as a potentate, rather than a community leader who is responsive to the needs of a community.
Compromise, and give and take, are necessary for the democratic operation of a community, and your unwillingness to compromise shows that you are acting out of your own - rather than the community's - interests.
We do not need - or want - a dictator, who feels that policies are more important than the people whom the policies are meant to serve. As a recent encyclopaedia member, I feel I deserve the same respect and consideration you gave other members for months or years, which requires that I not be the recipient of ultimatums and edicts. What have I done to you or the article, to deserve this strong-arming, brute-force treatment? Where in the policies that you love to link, does it say that implementing the policies in a disrespectful and inconsiderate manner, couched in ultimatums and brazen assumptions of power, is okay?
As I said, don't expect zero resistance to your agend for "holding greater control over article content". All these things are subject to community inspection and observation, and I really don't think your initiation of a power struggle over article content is going to be tolerated for very long. I don't think this is how any of the "idols" of skepticism (such as Carl Sagan, Paul Kurtz, or Philip Klass) would go about this, and they would have the suave, tenacity and elegance to advance the skeptical hypothesis without needing the resort to demagoguery.
Why don't you set up your own website? There, you can be absolute dictator and ruler (up to a point). At this encyclopaedia, though, I am sure their are penalties that one can invoke for mean-spirited, coup attempts to seize control of article content.
The first rule of life is to value others. If you don't understand this, then linking to all the encyclopaedia policies you can, won't justify what you are doing. It is hard to say where this will end - but probably with the non-satisfaction of all parties, rather than a civil and harmonious result of mutual compromise and community involvement.-- Michaelsayers 22:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Moriori - How does one reconcile the statement in the first paragraph of this article (such skeptical attitudes adhere to a standard of research attributed to Carl Sagan that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence") with the fact that the quote originated with David Hume (who was not a scientist), and also with the fact that a class of U.F.O. reports - in the stochastic analysis of Project Blue Book Special Report #14 - have been shown to represent a class of definite "unknowns"? Unidentified yes; but extraordinary (according to Hume's delineation, and that of the enumerative induction section in John Stuart Mill's logic treatise), not at all. "Unidentified means unidentified", as you say, but "unknowns" have been analysed out as a separate class of "unidentified" object from those classified by "insufficient evidence". Indeed - and, perhaps to your chagrin - as the level of evidence increases, the per centage of "unknowns" increases as compared with "airplanes", "balloons", "insufficient evidence", et cetera. You condescendingly addressed J.Smith about "logic" in a post, but it seems that you are under informed in the subject.-- Michaelsayers 05:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Juliusdedekind. (1)You didn't bring up any of the other policies you wanted to discuss. (2)Anyone reserves to the right to critic a WP:CITE but the cite must be given first. (3)Wikipedia isn't Encyclopedia Britannica 2003. (4)If stuff removed finds its way back into the article with citation then fine. If not, then keep it out by enforcing WP:CITE.
Michaelsayers, (1)You are empowered by wikipedia wikipolicy to remove content that does not WP:CITE. So I am. (2) WP:CITE was asked for since spring of this year. See Previous Archieves. (3)You have all the time in the world to WP:CITE content that is removed because it violates WP:NOR. There is no rush there. (4)I don't dictate wikipolicy.
Like I said before. WP:CITE is inevitable. Once the article has only WP:CITE in it then it can be kept that way by everybody. Week by week evaluation of one line doesn't allow for contributors who keep adding stuff without WP:CITE. WP:CITE and WP:NOR are not my policies. There are wikipedia policies.( Simonapro 09:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Moriori - I did answer your question.
Simonapro - I am for editing of the article, and the 100% accurate derivation of every word of it from cited sources. But the deletion of historical facts, rather than simply rewriting the type so that it is accurate, and rather than researching through all available sources for the citation list, is Stalinistic, to put it mildly. For instance, there might be (say) 900 published references, of varying orders, to the Robertson Panel. One can obtain copies of all of them (for a fee) through remote libraries, government outlets, et c., and after a thorough reading, can have an accurate write up, each sentence of which is referred to the appropriate source. But research takes time, and it seems that what you want is research in 10 days - an impossibility. Most citations here seem to be for internet websites - and there is little academic control over internet content.
So, what will happen once you do the preliminary deletion based on your demands for research, is the rest of the article will have to be deleted too since it is not up to research standards, and replaced with a header that reads "article deleted pending academic research". Thorough research for an article like this - by a dedicated researcher - probably will take 4-8 years minimum (I am sure you are aware how long some Ph.D. theses take).
Rather than having a blank page (and, I assure you that if references to historical facts such as the Robertson Panel have to go, I and others aren't go to simply look the other way in regard to the humiliating sentences, not up to research standard, in almost every paragraph about non-skeptics - as if there are no "non-skeptical" scientists, or the "non-skeptical" scientists are unfamiliar with Hume; what an insult to so many people that paragraph is!), I suggest a compromised approach of going through the article one item per week (some items require considerable nuance to write with 100% finesses and accuracy, and may take longer), to provide a tentative, more-or-less accurate rewrite based on "home research" - not something up to Ph.D. thesis standard, in terms of research or writing, but something functional, and devoid of any philosophical biases (i.e., which says what this source over here says this, and that source over here says, et c., in a 100% literal and coherently structured way). Each of us can add his own findings, as a community - community research for a community encyclopaedia. A week of home research for each item, by dozens or hundreds of people, can resolve this in a year's time (maximum).
But if you can't compromise, then catastrophe is inevitable. Merely being legally - or otherwise - able to do something, doesn't mean that the action is meritorious.
I may go to the encyclopaedia establishment (this encyclopaedia should have a board of directors), who I suspect can prevent you from initiating a power struggle over the content of this article (masqued by you as a struggle over article quality). I don't know much about how this encyclopaedia works, and whether your ultimate powers as editor are de facto or otherwise, but I do know that the board of directors usually has considerable strength over an organization, and when I contact an organization it is always at the top (a music director, or a board of directors), and this seems to be the most effective way of getting things squarely accomplished.
Surely, going into an article, and doing mass deletions, is considered to not be constructive behaviour, and is highly frowned upon.
I am not going to tolerate your abuse of (presumably) de facto editorial powers, so lets try to find a more satisfying approach to the article.-- Michaelsayers 18:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
All that "non-skepticism" implies, at the most, is acceptance of philosphical presuppostions contrary to the philosophical presuppostions in which the "skeptics" believe - this is at the core of the bias in the article as it presently stands. Skeptics, believe as much in their own philosphical presuppositions, as do the non-skeptics - and are, as much, "believers". Of course, it is possible to get beyond philosophical presuppositions (as intimated in some sections of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, the work of U.C. Berkley philosphy professor Stephen C. Pepper, and elsewhere), which is what I endeavor to do.-- Michaelsayers 19:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Simply, WP:CITE is wikipolicy. Wikipolicy dictates that article content needs to cite its sources. We will be dealing with the citations after we deal with the content that is blantantly violating WP:NOR. ( Simonapro 21:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Tell us a) which content doesn't have a reliable source, and b) the source for stating that the questioned source/content is not reliable. I asked something similar to this before, and received no reply. This "we" proves yet again that you are acting in collusion with others, as I alleged: evidently, I was right.
Your notions of reliable vs. unreliable source, are conditioned by your own personal inclinations in relation to this subject matter. Why hide and suppress content and sources - as the encyclopaedias of Stalinist Russia did - unless you are pursuing an ideological agenda [which is what I have been alleging about you and your cohorts all along]? If nothing is being suppressed, then give everyone the specifics to mull over, and don't go through with your planned deletion of data. You (and your cohorts) want an essentially one-man U.F.O. article - I suppose with you as the mouthpiece. YOU ALL ARE NOT GOING TO GET AWAY WITH IT.
There are at least 10 Ph.D. theses related to U.F.O.s that I know of, by the way, loaded with "reliable" sources. They need to be added to the list of citations/bibliography for the article. But I suppose that you are not interested in Ph.D. level research, aren't you?
Your historical viewpoint on the U.F.O. subject is reminiscent of one who is living before the advent of the Freedom Of Information Act.
Go ahead, delete away, rewrite U.S. cold war history so that there was no 1953 Robertson Panel, do whatever you want without restraint, ethics or compunction towards anyone, simply because you can, be the living embodiment of "might makes right". At the least, I don't think you'll be well-appreciated or much admired for this suppression of history, and since you are adamant, I guess we'll have to see what happens at the most.-- Michaelsayers 02:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE is the mandate. As you are new I will overlook your accusations and point you in the direction of WP:CIV ( Simonapro 08:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
I turned on the chanal today when I saw a program on flying saucers was in my TV Guide. Sure enough, they had real footage of a disk shaped hovercraft made by the US military(and similar designs made Nazi German Engineers)
I wouldn't bother to post this here because really, these Saucers have nothing to do with UFOs(as they were made by the US military, making them IFOs) but searching the words 'Flying Saucer' redirects here.
I suggest adding a section on attempts to make Flying Saucers to this article(or an otherwise appropriate one). Wikipedia seems to lack this information entirely. I would do it myself but I don't know much about history, military engineering, flying saucer projects or anything relevant to the subject for that matter. I just watch a lot of educational TV...
Look at the article Military flying saucers to read about known Earth built aircraft, either saucer or disc shaped. The Avro Avrocar (aircraft) was a Canda/USA hovercraft that was scrapped, while a similar looking vehicle was built by the British; the SR-N1, with a rubber skirt around the edges. The SR-N1 was the first practical air-cushioned, hovercraft. Without the rubber skirt around the edges, the Avrocar was unstable and useless. 204.80.61.10 14:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk
i think that ufos might not be aliens but time travellers, maybe in the future we have this kind of technology and a time machine so people travel back in time.
exactly this is my new theorey on ufos and maybe it should be put into the article.
If UFOs come from outer space then...
Speak for yourself. Science doesn't deal only with knowns, and discount unknowns. Moriori 06:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Why are we not detecting any intelligent signals from Outer Space?
This question assumes (1) that the communication technologies developed by ETs are comparable to ours and/or (2) that ETs would actually want to open communication with the "Earthlings" (3) what we call "intelligence" as an established fact for the rest of the universe.
Why are we not picking them up with all the technology we use to monitor space debris?
Again, you have assumed that (1) that with the condition that ETV debris is "picked up," the general "NPOV" public would be notified. (2) In addition, you may have confused the technological ability to monitor our own space debris with that which is not our own.
These are just some minor points I thought needed to be addressed (certainly not exhaustive) before such questions are even asked. -- Juliusdedekind 21:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This question assumes (1) that the communication technologies developed by ETs are comparable to ours and/or..
If you look at the question again it tells you that scientists teach that it is the same stuff everywhere, that stuff being molecules, and the laws of physics should apply across the cosmos. If something is using bandwidth in this solar system, or possibly outside of the solar system, we should be detecting it. Someone suggested that laser technology would be the work-around for this problem but we don't appear to picking up any binary data in terms of flicking light either. It is hard to imagine intelligent life not using the binary system for their laser communication. It has nothing to do with them contacting us. It has everything to do with us at least picking up something. ( Simonapro 11:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC))
If you look at the question again it tells you that scientists teach that it is the same stuff everywhere, that stuff being molecules, and the laws of physics should apply across the cosmos.
The laws of physics are not the same as the INTENT of other beings to utilize those laws accordingly. You can easily assume homogeneity in physical laws (as you understand them) but DO NOT ASSUME homogeneity in other being's use of those laws--to do so is simply narrow and absurd.
If something is using bandwidth in this solar system, or possibly outside of the solar system, we should be detecting it.
Well, that's a big "if" ("but" really) that you will need to prove.
Someone suggested that laser technology would be the work-around for this problem but we don't appear to picking up any binary data in terms of flicking light either. It is hard to imagine intelligent life not using the binary system for their laser communication. It has nothing to do with them contacting us. It has everything to do with us at least picking up something.
Hard to imagine trying to fit your head inside a hypothetical being of which you have no knowledge. -- Juliusdedekind 17:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm doing some rewording of selected sentences from the "Ancient accounts" section through "Hynek system". I'll also be switching the positions of two pairs of paragraphs. If anyone wishes, I can post the before and after versions here, sentence by sentence. -- ChrisWinter 17:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
A while back I wanted to remove the ufology related whatnots to it's article. When I started I quickly found that it was beyond me.
Before we start doing a mass-deletion of WP:V violations I think the article split should be finished. Anyone willing to take this task on? --- J.S ( t| c) 23:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added the common usage of "UFO", which basically refers to any alien spacecraft, even if it's identified as such. Voortle 01:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a deadline looming to remove contributions to the article that violate WP:NOR by not citing sources as per WP:CITE. If you contributed something that did not WP:CITE then you would want to WP:CITE to make sure it stays there. This is part of a requested article clean-up. See above and previous archive. Thanks. ( Simonapro 13:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
WP:NOR is not a threat. It is wiki policy. WP:CITE is not a threat, it is wiki policy. If you have a problem with the policy being Hack and slash then take it up with the policy makers on the policy articles. There is no policy for one thing at a time or the go slow. The go slow has already been implemented. It was called "everyone cite your sources please" and follow wikipolicy. The policy is WP:NOR and WP:CITE. They have had months to cite their sources. ( Simonapro 21:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
This is just basic standard wikipolicy of citing sources if you want something in the article. There shouldn't even be a debate on this issue. If it doesn't cite, it goes. I see you have been prompted to cite. Good. That is all anyone is asking. ( Simonapro 17:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC))
No, it is just that you decided to answer the tag queries because this has been brought to your attention. Anybody can add anything to the article and have a fact tag sit around (as they have been) until someone does the work (which was only done when this was brought to your attention, not the tag). What is better is to WP:CITE and do the work so that others do not have to do it. ( Simonapro 18:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Simonapro - I vow that you shall not succed in your effort to (in your words) "control article content", while masquerading as improving the article quailty (as premised on "WP:" links). I don't know if your ultimate editorial powers are de facto, or are based on a structured proviso integrated into "WP", but I am certain that the board of directors of "WP" - or SOMEONE - will be able to stop your attempt to control article content. I am quite new to "WP", and am extremely busy with non-"WP" matters - but I do know that the president or board of directors has considerable ability to curb abuses within an organization, and usually are the most efficient points of contact for getting things squarely and firmly done.
You seem to have a history of doing this with other articles, without caring about the dissatisfaction of others, or whether or not such radical actions are fully sanctioned by "WP" provisos. "WP" doesn't exist solely to serve for the satisfaction of one person - it is a community effort, based on dialogue and discussion.
Notice how I have mentioned many things in the talk section that need refinement and more suave handling - but that I did not spontaneously implement the changes. That is the civil and scholarly approach, based on discussion and compilation of sources.
J.Smith - please email me through my home page (linked at my user page), if you have the time to do so. I am seeking a briefing on the "WP" subject matter, so that I can attempt to restrain Simonapro from his content-control agenda, but perhaps with more polish and elegance than that to which I may presently be self-availed, if it becomes necessary that I contact "WP" through formal channels. I feel this is the most important subject of modern times, and as prominent as "WP" is with search engines, it is imperative to do everything possible to achieve unbiased presentation of the subject matter - and simply let the facts speak for themselves - and to prevent any person or party of persons from conspiring, or working individually, to control, hijack or steer the content in any direction whatsoever ("skeptical" or "nonskeptical", to use the modern 'Cartesian' terminology), through any position of editorial power whatsoever (whether de facto, or dervied through "WP" provisos).-- Michaelsayers 20:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Careful attention is being made to the claims in the article and the claims in these discussions. I was asked to come here to help solve disputes. The first way of doing that is by enforcing wikipolicy. We will be dealing with citations after removing wikipedia article violations to see if they actually meet WP:CITE. You can debate WP:CITE on WP:CITE. Also see WP:NOT ( Simonapro 21:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
JC, watch out for WP:CIV. All I have done is quote wikipolicy to the letter WP:CITE. Wikipedia content needs to be cited. That is the mandate by wiki policy makers. ( Simonapro 08:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
It has been brought to my attention by JC that apparently WP:CITE is not a policy but a style. Unfortunately it is the only answer to WP:NOR that is policy. So I will be applying WP:NOR shortly as the deadline is almost here. I hope you all have respect for the fact that the mandate wasn't just applied right away as it should have been from day#1 but people where given 1/2 a year to cite sources. ( Simonapro 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
You claim to be a new member so you probably (1)where not here for it and (2)don't know how to read the archieve feature which is in the top right had corner. ( Simonapro 22:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=68288727&oldid=68018907 <-- Here they are. ( Simonapro 23:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
I would like to know the source of Simonapro's fetish concerning the material of this article. Why should anyone spend so much effort and time, when others can just point to the past articles (of which I plan on doing right here) in the history list? Any respectable researcher will look not only at the content of the current page, but examine the past modifications and reasoning for such. I decided upon reviewing the past "revisions" that it would be far easier to just accept these individual pedants as part of the social and psychological phenomenon concerning these "UFOs." At any rate, anyone who dares show a marked obsession concerning these so-called "revisions" of content must know that their own actions go on record--and as such may end up as a specimen of ridicule in a forthcoming book on the subject.-- Juliusdedekind 16:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
can i create w/photoshop a fake picture and includes it in this article as an evidence? the pictures used in this articles are all big fat fakes including the pseudo FBI/CIA pictures... this is pathetic. people... for J's sake... EnthusiastFR 17:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I know that your comments aren't fake, Enthusiast? --
Juliusdedekind 05:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the conspiracy theory section.
I did it because this was highly redundent to the CS article. Theres still a bunch there... but if anyone disagrees with me feel free to put it back. --- J.S ( t| c) 20:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the trouble is that we call people like Hynek, Friedman, Valle, et al., "ufologists" and keep the term far away from the other "ufologists" who put a lot of effort in studying UFO reports (i.e. in order to debunk them), like Menzel, Klass, etc. -- Juliusdedekind 05:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Are we human beings alone in this vast universe that does not know its boundaries so far? Could there be intelligent beings living on planets other living? If found. Are the more advanced of us, or did not report what we have achieved progress and technological civilization? These and other questions occur to astronomers. They are trying to answer for decades, before they ascend to the human Moon on 20 July 1969. It has increased the desire and determination to search for other forms of life outside Earth.
At the end of last January announced the American Space Agency "NASA" NASA scientists were able to get in the harsh environment Mokhtbrathm similar to those characteristic of the environment of outer space is very deep, and developed what they called primitive cell, It is a film-like structures completely coated board internal cells in living organisms.
Scientists believe that the materials or structures necessary to form an antigen molecules cells, which shows the importance of the origin of life, They exist in all parts vast deep outer space. The American world "Lewis pain Ndola" The new discovery could lead to the conclusion that life exists somewhere in the vast universe with life on Earth.
Dr. "Durkin Jason" from the search for beings in outer space and the California-based life as we know it on Earth uses membrane structures to isolate the chemical processes and protection, required by the life of the factors and external conditions, namely that this is similar to the home of condoms anything outside These materials are membrane-like building materials are immense, allowing chemicals which are the origin of life required for the growth of household formation and evolution of life in other worlds.
It has enabled scientists in laboratories and NASA to provide conditions similar to those existing conditions of outer space, the vacuum is cold, It succeeded in promoting a simple mixture using UV. It is noteworthy in this connection that consists of ice cosmic chemical ordinary vehicles available daily, such as : water, methanol, or wood alcohol, ammonia, carbon dioxide, which are frozen with each other, After a period of such material collectively other materials solid strength if plunged into the water begins to form internal membrane structures in the cells of living organisms. This is true to say-God-almighty God in the Holy Quran : "We have made from water every living thing."
Radio waves
There is also a space center in the United States called the "telescope City," began broadcasting on the life outside the Earth since 1960, About one hundred completed research for 40 years, did not tire Dr. "Frank Drake," and not dictated. attempts to monitor any signs of coming from outer space, perhaps inhabitants of the other planets in the universe.
The project had been originally published as a result of research "Jeosbi Kokoni", "Philip Morrison" a world of physics, Cornell University, In this research found that radio waves might be the best way to communicate between celestial bodies; Thus monitoring the presence of any intelligent life outside Earth.
The German Alveziaian had asked at the outset of the official telescope "Jodrel weep" in London picking up any strange signals coming from abroad. The proposal was rejected, but Dr. Frank Drake gathered idea, and executed, through a telescope City in the state of West Virginia of the United States of America. Now this is a new world to explore life elsewhere in the universe; with the current possibilities which he describes as more than a hundred trillion times possibilities and fixtures which started since 40 years.
Drake says : may be residents of other worlds in our sophisticated technologies thousands of millions of years to say that everything is meaningless; Therefore, we will do what we will be in a form just what Arciolojia future.
The observatory "Jodrel Bank" London has started thereafter to monitor signals coming from outer space. Not only that, there is Mersidan doing the same work for decades, one in Portriko. and the other in Ecuador in South America. Not only is this observatories attempts to capture signals, but broadcast messages saying : We inhabitants of the earth. From you? It is multilingual, perhaps up to the intelligent beings in this vast universe.
Koran and life in the universe
It is not possible to provide conditions conducive to the emergence of life is the only reason to believe that there are other forms of life beyond the planet Earth, But there are other reasons in the forefront of which is that this vast universe contains at least 100 billion galaxies. Within each galaxy there are millions of stellar clusters, such as the solar system, which is located Planet Earth It is a part of the galaxy "path Way" which includes the range between 150 to 200 billion star, and stars revolved around these millions of planets, such as planets, which revolve around the sun. It is incomprehensible that these billions of planets with life at least in some of them.
The discovery of planets outside the solar system one of the reasons for supporting the possible existence of life in space, but in the galaxy; where scientists discovered planet larger than Jupiter orbits the star every 35 years in orbit similar to the buyer orbit around the Sun. This star in the Great Bear. As the world discovered "Alexander and Lskz" The presence of a planet similar to Earth revolves around the neutron star.
Nevertheless, the scientists did not hold physical evidence confirmed the presence of living organisms, whether reasonable or not reasonable in this vast universe, But the Koran - eternal miracle - had told a fact of life the universe and the heavens for more than 14 centuries; almighty God says : "Only God Isadjadua depart Khaba in the heavens and earth" (Al-Naml, a 25) The Khaba : plant, because grains hide in the ground, then planted out, namely, that God cleared vegetation on the ground, as well as ousted it in the sky. The meaning of this life of a plant, It is what the Dr. " Ali Hussein Abdullah "transferred from his book" Are we alone in the universe, "Dr." Muhammad Abduh Ayyash "in an article.
There is evidence Qarani another, but the existence of numbers in the sky, where the height of view : "The creation of yourselves heaven and earth and laying them from the hegemony and is assembled if he likes Kadeer" (Shura no 29) which affirms the existence of God decent numbers in the sky, and not in the land only.
Life on Mars
But there are discoveries astronomers refer to the possibility of the existence of primitive forms of life on other planets; where scientists recently discovered the existence of channels and valleys constructed water on Mars, which is called the Red Planet. The scientists also analysed the meteoroid found at the South Pole 1996, and found that the mass of rock that fell from Mars. with chemical and organic vehicles belonging to more than 3.5 billion years. It also confirms scientists that life originated first on the planet for three billion years.
In 1969 and 1971 found meteorites in Australia, Siberia and the Russian and American scientists studied and discovered there were nine acidification Amineh quality is different from those in the fingerprints, or any components, or outputs Article living on the land. Scientists still hope to find bacteria. or any primitive living cells on the surface of Mars or to the depth of several metres from the sea; and trips through the red planet with advanced equipment during this year, 2003 and 2005.
Other phenomena
Since the 1950s and 1960s to the present century, and with the intensification of a wave of research on the life outside the Earth, Many believed that the land placed under constant surveillance by intelligent beings in space, This is due to a phenomenon called "dishes plane," It is a strange objects luminous elliptical form appeared in the sky, and it has been reported that some fell on the ground. Having first emerged in 1947, and increased interest in the confidentiality added by the American agencies.
The American institutions to study lasted for twenty years. launched the project "Blue Book" to discuss the phenomenon of dishes plane. A team from the University of Colorado report ultimately concluded that the objects to the fact that this phenomenon is not voluntary, and the manufacture of imagination, Continued research is not only a waste of time.
It has been said in some quarters that these scientific objects is only satellites spy, It was in the context of the cold war between the Soviet Union and the United States of America.
There are also beliefs that the continent is a continent called "shuttle" mired beneath the Atlantic Ocean, It was inhabited in the past deep space robots, hallucinations up to say that the inhabitants of this continent are those who know how to build a former Egyptian pyramids.
Some researchers also believe in the strange phenomena that incidents crash over the triangle "Bermuda" is a famous base Lmkhlokat space abduct these aircraft, The research, and the passengers.
Ultimately, the fact remains that there life elsewhere in this vast universe real Quranic uncertain. The search continues for astronomers to find physical evidence of its existence.
In the Republic of Peru in the city of the sun, which contains many of the mountains. And most of these mountains are flat, there are modern airports tracks drop-wheels - Mgrozh plane to land solid and these effects has been in existence since 50000 years so far.
In the area of claims (nation) on the borders of Libya and Algeria mountainous area contains many caves called (Tassili) and contains caves inscriptions on the astronauts and women wearing the centuries on their heads, due to charges 30000 year so far
And also contains a gate to the Sun City (Taiwatako) in Bolivia inscriptions astronauts for thousands of years
And not evidence of the existence of a plane dishes inscriptions and drawings only. It has been mentioned in the books of ancient civilizations as described dishes aircraft and space creatures such as the civilization of India, China and Tibet, Peru and Persians
A lot of content has been removed. (this edit) I'm ok with most of it, except for one thing.... the Christopher Columbus quote did not require a citation. The text provided the source for the info. Because of that no other citation is required. WP:V is satisfied. A ref with a link to where someone can look it up would be nice... and it would be a great idea... but it's not required. I'll see if I can find an online copy of CC's journal, but I'd appreciate it if you replaced that portion. --- J.S ( t| c) 00:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Presently working on The Robertson Panel. The section that was in the article, is not informative or accurate. There is no listing given of the panel members (which included Goudsmit, who is credited with discovery of electron spin; Ruppelt; a C.I.A.-O./S.I. Deputy Assistant Director; the [then] Chief of the Operations Staff for the C.I.A.-O./S.I.; Hynek). There is no history given of the documentation declassification. I will include statements about the panel, from panel member and participant sources, with accurate sourcing.-- Michaelsayers 23:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
As the article is currently conforming to wikipolicy the WP:CITE style is helping to prevent WP:NOR violations. The next step should be to check (YES YOU!) that the citations actually use standards set by WP:CITE. A very high percentage of the citations use web site citations, many of which do not meet the criteria set by WP:CITE. It would be best to cross-reference these citations with citations that are more in line with the quality sought after in WP:CITE. If it is the WP:CITE policy you want to debate, then now is the time to do so. If you have added citations to the article that use web sites as your source then you may want to find another published cite adhering to the criteria in WP:CITE. ( Simonapro 16:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC))
The WP policy sheets do not provide a catalogue of links that are deemed unreliable. While one is certainly allowed to be of a personal opinion, based on original research, that a link is unreliable, original research can not be included in WP articles in any fashion. I am sorry, but this is WP policy.
To quote from Wikipedia:Verifiability -
If you do these edits, Simonapro, the edits might be reversed, in which case if you are adamant about your edits being preserved, the "burden of evidence" will be put on you as to why you "wish" for each "edit to remain". Sincerely,-- Michaelsayers 06:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Please list any unreliable sources here. Until that is done I'll assume everything is fine. --- J.S ( t| c) 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 04:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Unidentified flying object → Alien Spacecraft – By DEFINITION, UFO means "Unidentified flying object." That's the DEFINITION of the word. Connecting to to alien spaceships not only contradicts the "unidentified" part of the word, but it's creating confusion. For the people that want to think that all "UFO's" are alien technology, they should find a better word, one that's more suiting, such as ALIEN SPACECRAFT. This article should be moved on "Alien spacecraft" for that very reason. UFO is nothing more than a word and should be defined on the Wikitionary. It's just plain ignorant to call all alien spacecrafts "UFO's", so why let the ignorance spread to Wikipedia? Anonymouses 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
1. Once you identify an "unidentified flying object" as an alien craft, it's no longer an "unidentified flying object." 2. How much sense does it make to classify all "UFO's" as "alien crafts?" (Some people believe UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft,) This line is saying "Some people believe unidentified flying objects are alien spacecraft. Well, what if I can't identify an object in the sky that actually is an airplane, for instance? Wow, no sense made in that line there. -- Anonymouses 04:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Anonymouses - first of all what you are asking is pretty advanced stuff for the quality of this article to date. We are still trying to get contributors to actually cite verifiable sources first. As for your suggestion... what we have is a historical record for the use of the phrase UFO to sometimes imply Alien Spacecraft. Obviously a direct contradiction of terms but used none-the-less. IMO, this article should identify the contradiction in the terminology. However your approach would be better suited to creating an article called Alien Spacecraft and on completition suggest linkage or even a merger if that may be the case. ( Simonapro 13:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC))
If my evil brother throws something at me, it is a UFO until I can identify it. Is it an alien spacecraft? Probably not! I would call that sort of misinterpretation biased and pointy.
This caption here (from the article) is confusing: "Photo of an alleged UFO taken in New Hampshire in 1870". It could be identified as a flying stick, or it could be unidentified... but I don't know if that's the point. Maybe the writer is actually saying "alleged" UFO as in it's either an unidentified flying object or it's a UFO... or as in it's either a flying stick or an alien spacecraft?
Quite confusing. A move and a rewrite would be a good thing. Alien Spacecraft, however, is not the appropriate title for a new article as it is also very much about one's point of view; perhaps simply the UFO Phenomenon or some such, since these are cases of unidentified perhaps flying objects. It just doesn't feel orderly to put them into the same article as what should be telling people, plain and simple, that UFO is an abbreviation for something flying that has not been identified. Identifying the term UFO with something identifiable is redundant.
--
Anonymouses 12:14, 16 August 2006 (PDT) [False signiture, I did not write that. But I do agree with it! --
Anonymouses 20:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)]
I've merged some of the Ufology cruft over to the Ufology article. If anyone objects let me know and I'll put it back here... --- J.S ( t| c) 20:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs one, and bad. Due to the definition of "Unidentified flying object" it is pointless and meaningless to add every "sighting" of said unidentified flying object. I saw a thing shining in the sky, and I could not identify it. Should I add it into the wikipedia page? Also, under each picture, it says either "claimed," "alleged," or something similar. How can you have an alleged unidentified flying object? Either it's identified, or it's not. The article focuses too much on a specific craft or appearence than the fact that "UFO" can mean anything that is unidentified and flying and is an object. Almost the entire article revolves around the misuse of the word "UFO" as stated in the first paragraph. "To account for hardcore unsolved cases, a number of explanations have been proposed by both proponents and skeptics. " Skeptics? Skeptics of WHAT, exactly? People who are skeptic that it is sometimes impossible to indentify a flying object in the sky, or skeptic of "special unidentifiable craft" that is borrowing on the name UFO and have nothing to do with this article? This article is using the terminology wrong so many times that it seriously needs a major rewrite, and fast. UFO is not a term to describe this stuff. (Yes, it's a UFO by definition, but so is that thing in the air that I can't identify. And hey, it happens to just be a stick.) A really strong example of my case is the See Also section. Almost EVERY LINK in there has to do with "aliens" or "alien-related" sections. This article needs NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIENS! A UFO is, by definition, an unidentified flying object. Not all unidentified flying object are aliens. Not all unidentified flying objects are crafts. The article needs the definition, and nothing else. The article does not need talk about certain objects being UFOs (see above, how a stick can be a UFO), the article does not need UFO sightings (the stick) and the article does not need to talk about how people are skeptic that UFO's exist (see: the stick). All references use the term incorrectly. Although so does the majority of the population, wikipedia should NOT. The people who are using this term incorrectly need to go and find a correct term to use, because UFO is not a good term for you. UFO is a general term for anything unidentified and SHOULD NOT be used to describe an object. (Similiarly, you should not talk about "circular object sightings" and "circular objects" under circle) I really hope you people can see that the article is on bad terms and should be completely rewritten to remove all things even slightly referencing aliens, crafts, or anything besides the definition and the common misuse of the word. For example, here's a good replacement (A UFO or unidentified flying object is any real or apparent flying object which remains unidentified after investigation.
In pop culture, UFO is commonly used to refer to any hypothetical alien spacecraft, even ones that would be identified as such, despite the etymology.) -- Anonymouses 19:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Note: A name you could use to describe these "alleged UFO sightings" could easily be "Sightings of paranormal craft" instead of UFO. -- Anonymouses 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Anonymouses, the most effective way to advocate the dual proposition you stated that "[1]UFO's are unidentified flying objects and [2] have NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIENS"), would be to add content and references for the work of Klass, Menzel, Korff, et al. I don't think there would be any resistance to this. I'll attempt this eventually, if no one else does it first.
For the ratio of words typed, to effective results, I think what I have suggested would be the best path for you to follow.
Contrary to your examples, I can't think of even a single Project Blue Book report that was determined to have been either a stick, or a rock, that had been thrown into the air.-- Michaelsayers 10:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I've read two of Klass' books, and am acquainted with his methods of demystification. Contrary to what you state, he has done investigative work; unless I am misinformed, he travelled to Iran to speak with various parties in relation to the Tehran 1976 reports. -- Michaelsayers 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Did you know that the Robertson Panel does:
Since the rewrite matter has been decided, can the appropriate templates be removed from the article ? Martial Law 06:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This org claims to expose anyone, BOTH UFO proponents and UFO Skeptics AS alleged frauds. Among those claimed to be frauds is Klass and CISCOP. Website is www.ufowatchdog.com. Seen this in their "Hall of Shame 1", 7th on their list. Martial Law 22:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a lack of clarity here. C.I.S.C.O.P. (which is not a person), deals with all manner of subjects (not only U.F.O.s).-- Michaelsayers 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This site claims that aliens, incl. the Greys are hostile to the human race. Site is www.maar.us. Martial Law 18:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
These two radio shows often discuss aliens, UFOs in general. They are Coast To Coast AM and Jeff Rense's radio show. Martial Law 18:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This site links to several UFO websites and data sites. Site is www.mysteries-megasite.com Clicking on UFOs will take the reader to several UFO websites and data sites. Martial Law 19:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Website is www.popularmechanics.com I have two copies which have UFO/Alien matter in them. One has a UFO on the cover, another has what appears to be a naked Grey female alien on the cover. This magazine normally specializes in machinery, home and automotive matters, some military tech matters. Is that useful in the article ? The one with the UFO lists some UFO cases, bits of the Robertson Panel protocol, such as if the witness is a kid, the incident report is to be ignored outright, while the one with the naked alien discribed what and how alien life will look like. Martial Law 19:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth (I'm not copying this over into the main page, because I don't know the situation wrt copyright issues, or authenticity, let alone supposed prior top-secret status), descriptions of UFOBs (extraterrestrial craft) from the Majestic-12 Special Operations Manual, April 1954 (source: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/) 23:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Description of Craft Documented extraterrestrial craft (UFOBs) are classified in one of four categories based on general shape, as follows:
File:UFOBs - extraterrestrial craft chart (maj12).gif Dhatz 23:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Why only after investigation? This sounds wrong, and it's not my understand of the term, or how I would use it. If (hypothetically) I saw something in the sky that I could not identify, does it only become a UFO after it's been investigated? (And by who? In what way?) What am I supposed to call it in the meantime? Suggest this should say: "A UFO or unidentified flying object is any real or apparent flying object which has not been identified and classified as a known phenomena."
www.breakingufonews.com:Latest UFO/Alien News, and www.alienadvice.com: Advisory and Support group for people who had seen a UFO/Alien. Martial Law 20:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The image caption says "This is an alleged 1952 UFO over". Alleged? Either it's unidentified and then it's a UFO, or it's identified and then it's an IFO. I don't get the "alleged" part. // Liftarn
I don't think this section belongs here, but I think it should be discussed first. Perhaps it belongs in the "Scientic Skepticism" article under "See Also" or section. Mapetite526 18:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The following statement from the intro is problematic:
"Once a UFO is identified as a known object (for example an aircraft or weather balloon), it ceases to be a UFO and becomes an identified object. In such cases it is inaccurate to continue to use the acronym UFO to describe the object."
What about a hypothetical situation where the government intentionally misidentified a UFO/Flying saucer as a aircraft or weather balloon as part of the a coverup of aliens? If an incident like Roswell did indeed involve an alien spacecraft whose existence was later covered-up by the U.S. goverment then it would be wrong to say that the object in such a case has been identified since the identification would be false. -- Cab88 21:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
That section was removed. I'd relay like to know why. It has three sources. You (whoever it was) called these three sources unreliable without actually providing reasoning. Please do so here. I'll put it back in the article in a few days otherwise. Thanks, --- J.S ( t| c) 19:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I was the one who removed the Alexander the Great section (again?) There are several things wrong with this paragraph. First, the sources it sites are not primary and are grossly unreliable. "Stranger than Science", as was pointed out, cited an unknown "Fate" Magazine, which in turn has no reference. (Indeed, it may not even exist.) This critique applies to all the "historical instances" that cite "Stranger than Science." In addition to the poor citation, however, the Alexander paragraph has a further flaw in that none of the primary sources from ancient accounts on the seige of Tyre speak anything of flying objects that destroyed Tyre's walls with beams of light. In fact, this historical event is well documented, with the means and type of seige engine used by Alexander explained in great detail.
For further reading on the seige, I refer you to the only real primary source on the subject by Flavius Arrianus. Further reading can be done at
http://cedarland.org/tyre.html
Djma12 18:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Anybody who believes that they are up to the task is invited to expand the Alien/UFO section on the Cattle mutilation page (about people who believe that one causes the other), as it is far too short and contains very little information. Beware, one of the users is really cranky about citation being WP:RS and will probably object to anything that mentions Linda Moulton Howe or laser surgery on cows.
perfectblue 13:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me the captions on several of these photos are kind of wishy-washy and weasely. For instance, the UFO picture from the 1870s; the caption describes it as an "alledged UFO", but that's incorrect - the picture is of a UFO. However, UFO is Unidentified Flying Object, NOT alien spacecraft. Unless there is some identification of the object, then it is definitely a picture of a UFO. It could be an alleged picture of a UFO, i.e. the veracity of the question is in question, or it could be a picture of an alleged alien spacecraft, but if the picture is known to be authentic then it should be labelled as a picture of a UFO, as a UFO is by definition an unidentified flying object. Sticking alledged on everything is silly; it should only be used where appropriate and I'd argue this is just weaseling. I'm as skeptical as the next person, but all the allegedlys are silly and pointless. Out of curiousity, ARE there any explanations for that 1870s picture? That's something I've never seen before and would like to know more about, as it obviously isn't a weather baloon and predates aircraft by 30 years. Titanium Dragon 14:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Is this this link good? Its a pretty good skeptical article from a well known skeptic. This would make a nice addition to the external links list.-- 131.104.138.61 21:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I think its pretty poor that my external link to www.ufo.org can be removed with any reference back to myself.
Obviously people are trying to increase their search rankings by deleting other peoples domains.
both www.ufo.org and www.ufo.net should be on the external links, both have chat boards specially for UFO.
WTF... Why would you delete a link based on your opinion, you must discuss it first because millions of people will look at this article! Mostly alien freaks. anyways.
--[[User:Storkian|Storkian] 01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That one guy needs to stop disapproving of people with UFO theories they want to share here.He's just jealous beause we have brains.We are only expanding the amount of info wikipedia holds.Stop ranting about making the artical better,because some of the ideas you discourage could make this artical much better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
whatever,it's obvious to me you're just some idiot with no real POV of this artical.
Someone please tell me the difference between UFOs. UFOs must mean you see something flying in the air that you don't know what it is. But why am i so confused about UFOs being an "alien airplane"? someone help me not get confused please.
--[[User:Storkian|Storkian] 01:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
i have made an article that the admin here says its similar to this one. i just would like to ask for u guys to read it and if u agree with him, i'll let him delete it. if you think not ro that there needs changes to the article feel free to ask and i will allow the changes Tu-49 23:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
UFOs are real there is huge evedence to support it, first of all they are not made by the USA government but are sometimes test flighted in area 51. Proofe of UFOS exist with old paintings made hundred years ago. The most accurte painting of a UFO space craft that i have seen is "The Madonna with Saint Giovannino painting, painted in 15 centuary before the evention of flight craft. The website of this picture is on http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml -- Marbus2 5 11:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I would like to contribute on the subject of UFOs, trim and even break-up the current article, but I would like to co-ordinate things with other editors genuinely interested in the subject, so there is some "consensus" on how to approach this (unfortunately, due to 50+yrs of officialdom psy-ops, very controversial) subject.
The current article uses words like "claimed", "alleged", "hypothetical", "supposed" in every other sentence. Meanwhile (from MUFON Fast Facts according to a Roper poll conducted in 2002 for the SciFi channel, one in seven Americans say they or someone they know has had an experience involving a UFO source and a CNN 1997 poll showed that 80% of Americans think government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms .
On objectivity, one need look no further than e.g. Wikipedia categorising UFO in the paranormal category, a/k/a supernatural (definition: "forces and phenomena which are are not observed in nature, and therefore beyond verifiable measurement"). This contradicts the abudance of physical evidence (50yrs of countless visual sighting reports by credible witnesses, some with close-up photos, airborne and ground radar, testimonies from 100+ of former government and military witnesses in DisclosureProject in 2001, etc)
So, do we want to "[ pull a Condon]" i.e. pretend to be factual and scientific? Incidentally, the "Condon Report" has been the last "official" UFO study (in US) since 1969! The psy-ops have resulted in practically no mainstream scientists touching the subject. In addition, the modern computer photo and video editing capabilities render any recent photo/video taken by "mere mortals" open to authenticity criticism. As a result, the most recent "authoritative" (officialdom, to be acceptable to the pseudo-skeptics) sources we cite on the Wikipedia UFO page are 40yrs old photos, whereas new UFO photos and videos get published every day!
To open minded skeptics (vs pseudo-skeptics) and agnostics: in ancient Greece, they said "μηδενί δίκην δικάσεις πριν αμφοίν μύθον ακούσεις" (as a judge in a trial, never reach an conclusion until hearing both sides), so at the risk of repeating myself I'd like to once again suggest watching the videos
and looking at the photos, reading the stories1 or stories2 (unfiltered, most are probably identifiable). Dhatz 00:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
There are some rather hostile comments about not adding external links to this page, but I think there are many infos still missing, which would allow the interested visitor to Wikipedia to form an INFORMED opinion about UFO. I've added a few links which offer IMO the most "bang-for-the-buck", i.e. most info in the least time. There are also the videos from Dr Greer's Disclosure Project (now available from Google Video). The "Out of the Blue" video documentary is also very good to get started.
Anyway, here are the links I added, I've found them all quite interesting.
I'd also like to add that it's clear that governments (esp. USA) are trying very hard to "explain away" the phenomenon and suppress it by ridiculing and discrediting anyone who dared to report sightings in past decades. Perhaps they are correct, if they think that it'll result into panic of the masses, and the media and "scientific community" mostly play along (as one member of US Congress put it, "at some point you have to decide your soul or your job and I guess to many people their job is more important"), but I'm not so sure that a really free Internet medium like Wikipedia should adopt the position of pseudo-skeptics (a/k/a "Flat Earth Society" members).
Yet, not all governments adopt the "black-is-white" orwelian Ministry of Truth position. E.g. Belgian and Mexican AirForce shared the radar videos with the public. The French COMETA report (1999) prepared by high level officials has been very close to supporting the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and was released into the public as a precaution to "preclude it from disappearing into a government black-hole" (per its editors' own wording).
Dhatz 17:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The Disclosure Project at www.disclosureproject.org presents a range of evidence that is most relevant to this article, yet remains unmentioned, a serious omission.
This site has some great UFO Video Evidence. -- Arltomem 05:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is a video that shows the apollo 11 astronauts faking their voyage using trick photography. Classified Nasa Video
This video has since been released by NASA in 2002 after it had been leaked into the public domain.
Photos of Apollo 'test' studio.
Movie shows how moon landings were faked with life size props and models.
-- Arltomem 08:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The article now runs to 80Kb, with no clear categorisation or prioritisation of content. I propose a total overhaul, synopsizing excessively detailed sections, and providing more navigational cues by proper use of the heading/subheading structure. As a rough sketch of works I propose to undertake:
Comments, please? Adhib 21:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I like your propostion of an organized article, but with an article the size of this, that would be pretty hard to do and deleting things might not make people happy either. Oyo321 22:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The references needed a serious overhaul. I have now listed all the references using the < ref > < / ref > tagging method. This gives a clear indication of where the references are coming from without cluttering the article. Marjor problem is the amount of web sites being used as references. The article practically does not exist. ( Simonapro 09:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
The reference section is useless. There is no way of knowing which reference is being cited. This is going to need a clean up. If people here can not match the references properly then the whole article might have to come down.
The way to do this is as follows.
(1)Click edit page above and see what the text source for the next quote looks like.
"Dr. xxxxx and the editors of the Oxford & Harper Collins translations, contend that the number of Roman Emperor Nero is 92. [1], a view that is also supported by Elvis [2]."
This way the reference will automatically be given a number and entered into the notes section at the end of the article also automatically. I have prepared that notes section already. Whatever gets into that notes section stays in the article and whatever doesn't needs to be cited in the above manner or will eventually go. ( Simonapro 07:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
As an additional note over 90% of citations where to web sites. ( Simonapro 08:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
Hi, the article has some disputes so I came here to try and help after being asked to do so. The problems have already been listed before.
The first thing to do would be to bring the unlinked references into context with the article using the numbering method. After that we can proceed to look at content that has not be varified. ( Simonapro 07:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone know how the idea that a ufo looks like a frisbee ever got started? N
This happens in the press conference scene in the Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. - Zepheus 17:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I suppose the question is this: what incompetant boob (or group thereof) would agree to test "extremely advanced aircraft" around civilian and residential areas? If such is the case with the U.S. military, we need to begin another article detailing such ridiculousness. (Juliusdedekind - Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3.37 CST)
Horribly problematic. For example, the classification of the evidence is arbitrary and uncited as to when it was collected and what kind of verification it went through. What's more, some of the classification is arbitrary. Electromagnetic interference would not cause compass needles to swing freely, for example. -- ScienceApologist 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
-- ScienceApologist 15:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Which ones aren't supported by sources? Lets get to the specifics.
--
Michaelsayers 07:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Any remarks within this article should be constrained to reports of compass needle gyration in the midst of a close encounter. When the actual writers begin to apply their own reasoning with respect to their understanding of electromagnetism, we get a biased article--whether the source of the reasoning is from a "skeptic" or otherwise. I would recommend that such commentary be placed within a background of statements made by the actual investigators of the time and remove all of the remarks applied to tilt the "neutrality" of this article. In addition, I believe that a number of highly respected sources exist that can provide better reporting besides the usual awkward internet site.
In addition, one should also not overlook the source files at http://www.bluebookarchive.org/ which should be referenced wherever possible for actual witness testimony (where applicable) instead of fishing around various ufological bric-a-brac sites. -- Juliusdedekind 21:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - emphasized in the opening paragraphs of the U.F.O. article - is a statement that originated with David Hume.-- Michaelsayers 03:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have been all over the U.S. it's the same thing. IF there is alien contact, the whole planet just may revolt, some, for religious reasons, some out of revenge for being ridiculed, as persuant to protocol, such as the Robertson Panel protocol, some will revolt in reaction to the alien contact themselves, some will rebel to cause trouble. Some people have claimed that Martial Law will be implemented to ostensibly prevent violence. Martial Law 01:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need citations on nearly every sentence, I'm afraid. For such a controversial subject, which surely is subject to the maxim extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, we should be very concerned not only about our sources, but even about the sources of our sources, as was Bede. I fully expect that true-believers will continuously add mentions of UFO events that are spurious. To counter this and to make sure only the best documented events and the best evidence is presented, I think there needs to be a tripling of our effort to document every mention of UFO evidence. I would start this effort by adding "citation needed" tags to every sentence in the article that introduces evidence. I would hope this would not just get the edit reverted; it is not an attack; it is an attempt to strengthen the article. Tempshill 05:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is going to need citations on nearly every sentence, I'm afraid.
Great! Let's start with the first few opening statements:
(1)Some people believe UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft, but most scientists and academics say there is no compelling evidence to support such a conclusion.
(2)As a result, claims that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft are generally dismissed through lack of evidence.
(3)Because of such beliefs, in pop culture, UFO is commonly used to refer to any hypothetical alien spacecraft, even ones that would be identified as such, despite the etymology.
Are these the articles of faith by the "skeptics" or do I need to start removing content because of lack of citation? -- Juliusdedekind 18:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed from the physical evidence section:
First of all, this paragraph isn't "physical evidence" and it makes a number of claims that the sources don't back up. In particular, the "research" into "reverse engineering" doesn't seem to represent very rigorous attempts and border mostly on speculation. This section relies on novel physics explanations neither peer reviewed nor accepted in the engineering or scientific communicites. The RPI link is dubious as well as I cannot seem to find any indication that this research is collaborative nor producing any results. In any case, reporting on this topic, if it is to be done here at this page, will require considerably more research and nuance than the above paragraph. -- ScienceApologist 19:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You have to see this one. The photog who shot the video has his website in this incident report: GIANT UFO seen over Phoenix, AZ.. Status: This is just now being investigated. Martial Law 20:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You better not. I am going to go through this article to insert tags asking for cites. If you can provide a reputable source, then please do it to make this article authoritative. If you can't, then don't bother trying. Moriori 06:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've never heard of such a place. Where is it? -- ScienceApologist 17:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh geez! Look at the other pictures and judge by continuity! "Passoria" is an obvious typo of Passaic, NJ, which does exist. Send a letter to the site in question and get them to fix the error. -- Juliusdedekind 20:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's one on the alleged Belgium incident: [2] Radar angel debunking: [3] Here's one from the BBC: [4].
I'm going to keep collecting them and we'll cross-reference and vet the article for errors as well as introduce the skeptical material.
-- ScienceApologist 17:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Rear Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, who became director of central intelligence in 1947, served on the N.I.C.A.P. board from 1957 until 1962.
In the U.F.O. article, presently he is identified as the first C.I.A. director: the first director of central intelligence, Sydney Sours, acquired the position in 1946. He was followed in this capacity by Hoyt Vandenberg, and then by Hillenkoetter. -- Michaelsayers 01:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed the subtitle from, "Reasons People Dislike Skeptics", to, "The Military and Intelligence Careers of Career Skeptics and Believers". This is because the surface conclusions can follow from various philosophical presuppositions - a logical positivist may be skeptical, as well as an empiricist, or a Kantian - and I have no personal dislike of, or ill-will towards, anyone on the grounds of his philosophical presuppositions. Interestingly enough, empiricism is very much in vogue these days, and persons of opposite conclusions often begin with identical (or very similar) presuppositions. More on this later. Respectfully, with well-wishing towards everyone who contributes here, -- Michaelsayers 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is that some people don't accept the fact that there are people, especially in the U.S. who will shoot at these things ? There is one report on Wikipedia itself, the Kelly-Hopkinsville Incident, in which people have shot at a UFO and have shot at aliens. I am currently in Texas, and most people will shoot first, ask questions later, if the target is still alive. Martial Law 19:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This article, as of July 2006, is very US-centric.
Other UFO anecdotes and histories need mentioning.
Since I added the Notes section some time back and requested references and citations there seems to have been some headway made. There is an increased mandate to cite everything because of the subject matter. While many articles can get away with having little to no citations, the controversial nature of the article warrants mass citation. For this reason I would propose a citation deadline for all the requested citations in the article that are currently standing (and if any more need to be made). If the deadline is not met then anything that was not cited simply gets removed and that way greater control over article content can be held in the future. Is a month from now too near, say 8th August 2006? The article is quite active. I am sure changes would press people to cite sooner rather than leaving it as it is.( Simonapro 19:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC))
8th of August is only 10 days away and counting... ( Simonapro 08:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC))
That is not wikipolicy. Wikipolicy asks for
WP:CITE. If contributors can't
WP:CITE then it shouldn't be here because that violates
WP:NOR. Sorry, policy dictates that there is a mandate to remove material that does not cite its sources. (
Simonapro 13:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
At any rate, you can test the civility by checking other articles (s.v. "holocaust," "anti-semitism," "democracy," "anarchism," "scientific method," "philosophy," "religion," "christianity," "theology," etc) and see if there is perhaps just a little bit of hypocrisy on this "citation" issue. I agree on rigorous citation of material, especially when the noisy critics like to pick at every speck of dirt.-- Juliusdedekind 05:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me like an attempt is being made to hijack control of the article content - after all, Simonapro wrote, "and that way greater control over article content can be held in the future". ScienceApologist wrote (in the talk section Resources on UFO skepticism), "we'll cross reference and vet the article for errors, as well as introduce the skeptical material". And the stated justification for this? It is that "while many articles can get away with having little to no citations, the controversial nature of the article warrants mass citation." I say that if these guys are going to play hard ball, then hard ball can be played back. No statements allowed without sources. No assumptions whatsoever. Period.
Absolutely no unsourced opinions (such as, "such skeptical attitudes adhere to a standard of research attributed to Carl Sagan"; "Skeptics say that most evidence is ultimately derived from notoriously unreliable eyewitness accounts" [which skeptics? what source, stochastic evidence is there for the unreliability of the eyewitness accounts? was it really necessary to use the word "notoriously"?]; "The remaining fraction have been labeled unidentified or unexplainable. Analyses of such cases have results that are usually ambiguous or inconclusive" [this is a totally inaccurate, unsourced position, and seems to have been written by someone who has not read Project Blue Book Special Report #14]).
The full substitution of neutral words for terminology premised on skeptical philosophical biases (such as, "some people believe that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft" [rather than "some people assert that", which would be neutral; and, by the way, it is majority per centage these days, not only "some people"]; "some cases have alleged associated physical evidence" [the evidence is not merely alleged, nor is it merely alleged that the evidence is associated with U.F.O.s]).
And, also, the inclusion of a full section on Statements by Living Government Witnesses.
Some of us have professions, and the 10-day deadline is patently unreasonable. It might only take three days of reviewing sources with a little time each day to arrive at (say) an accurate statement about the Robertson Panel - but what if everyone else is also focused on that one item for three days?
If you want the sources cited, than an organized approach, meant to be accessible for people with professional occupations, is necessary - such as the one J.Smith advised, perhaps with an item to be edited and sourced every Wednesday. If all you want to do is eliminate content you don't like, in order to "hold greater control over article content", followed by introducing the skeptical material, then you have found an excellent means to do so.
But don't expect zero resistance, or zero counter-action and zero penalties.
-- Michaelsayers 11:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE and WP:NOR mean exactly what they mean. This is across the board, for all content, be it skeptical or persuasive. The 'us' or 'them' ideology is not what this is about. This is about greater control over article content so that someone can not say absolutely anything they feel like (as they have been doing) without backing it up with WP:CITE. Frankly I don't care if it is skeptical or persuasive. If it doesn't WP:CITE it goes, and that is Wikipolicy. And this is not just a 10 day deadline. It has been asked for since the previous Achieve , half a year ago. If this stirs the pot then it doesn't matter. WP:CITE is inevitable. I am gald this is inspiring some to actually WP:CITE. That is exactly what wikipedia is about. And as for debating if something that doesn't have a WP:CITE should stay. Sorry but WP:CITE. It is just pushing the people to do the work they should have been doing all along but didn't.( Simonapro 17:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC))
There are other policies aside from
WP:CITE that need to be addressed. Such as it is, this extremely pedantic "mandate" applied to this article--a mandate, as you can see for yourself, not enforced to the same degree in other more controversial subjects--seems insincere and hypocritical. This aside from the fact that some vultures like to criticize the citation alone once it is placed. The removal of important content is inevitable when individuals do not like the content posted--regardless of the endless rationale and doctrine referenced by these noisy critics.
No need to apologize concerning the actions of content raiders who would like nothing more than to remove relevant material under the guise of "NPOV"--a doctrine misunderstood at best when taken as the "most popular view held by government officials and scientists" even if that view is radically false.
One should also examine the citation of Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 CD-ROM s.v. "unidentified flying objects" and print set--you'll find ample neutrality whereas not one single statement is cited--no references either.
I have said before that I believe in rigorous citation, but what I find in this article are lazy researchers trying to quickly invalidate content based on their inability to find the content in the source--a skill that any first-year college student would know. If there are statements that need citation, then most certainly they should be found and the comments without support should be removed. But if I find out (I keep a mirror record) that content is removed out of laziness (of either the critics or the "ufology maniacs") it will eventually find its place back into the article with ample citation and cross references for all to see--I will make sure of that.--[Juliusdedekind] 20:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Simonapro -
This encyclopaedia is a community effort, and everything posted is community property. I, too, would prefer that all things in the article have cited sources - what is being questioned isn't your preference in this regard, but rather the implementation thereof. Your position is one of an assumption of power, not community service, and of engaging in rigmarole and the planned deletion of historical facts from the article, rather than constructive participation.
You say the "us or them ideology isn't what this is about" - and yet you also say this is about "pushing the people to do the work they should have been doing all along". I should have been providing citations all these months, when I have been a community member for only a few days? "Should", according to whose authority? You have had all these months to implement a 'one item every Wednesday' requirement for rewriting the article to accurately represent the data in the sources, and also to research the sources. Instead of doing this, you place your neglect to implement (or even suggest) a community plan on everyone's shoulders, with a 10 day deadline instead (which is patently ridiculous for research and authorship about a subject with as many complexities and subtleties as the U.F.O. reports).
While certainly the U.F.O. subject is controversial, in the case of The Robertson Panel - as one example - we are dealing with a historical fact. The description in the article could benefit from editing, but well-considered editing appropriate to an encyclopaedia - and the research involved - takes time and finesse. Unless the encyclopaedia is going to pay contributors a professional fee, the work must be done as time permits - and, the work will not be of professional quality, in absolutely perfect King's English, et cetera. As a new member of the community, I feel I deserve an appropriate amount of time to work with what, too, now is my property - and to not have it destroyed and obliterated, regardless of how you have handled this matter during the last several months: you have had several months to handle it responsibly, and yet did not do so. To simply eliminate facts from the article, as you are going to do, certainly is suppression of information, is reminiscent of the encyclopaedias of Stalinist Russia, and is not an equitable solution.
It is not clear to me in what sense you are assuming this role - whether it is, or is not, a de facto assumption of power - but I will look into this to see what my true relationship to you is in this matter. You certainly seem to feel an unbridled sense of power, and to be acting as a potentate, rather than a community leader who is responsive to the needs of a community.
Compromise, and give and take, are necessary for the democratic operation of a community, and your unwillingness to compromise shows that you are acting out of your own - rather than the community's - interests.
We do not need - or want - a dictator, who feels that policies are more important than the people whom the policies are meant to serve. As a recent encyclopaedia member, I feel I deserve the same respect and consideration you gave other members for months or years, which requires that I not be the recipient of ultimatums and edicts. What have I done to you or the article, to deserve this strong-arming, brute-force treatment? Where in the policies that you love to link, does it say that implementing the policies in a disrespectful and inconsiderate manner, couched in ultimatums and brazen assumptions of power, is okay?
As I said, don't expect zero resistance to your agend for "holding greater control over article content". All these things are subject to community inspection and observation, and I really don't think your initiation of a power struggle over article content is going to be tolerated for very long. I don't think this is how any of the "idols" of skepticism (such as Carl Sagan, Paul Kurtz, or Philip Klass) would go about this, and they would have the suave, tenacity and elegance to advance the skeptical hypothesis without needing the resort to demagoguery.
Why don't you set up your own website? There, you can be absolute dictator and ruler (up to a point). At this encyclopaedia, though, I am sure their are penalties that one can invoke for mean-spirited, coup attempts to seize control of article content.
The first rule of life is to value others. If you don't understand this, then linking to all the encyclopaedia policies you can, won't justify what you are doing. It is hard to say where this will end - but probably with the non-satisfaction of all parties, rather than a civil and harmonious result of mutual compromise and community involvement.-- Michaelsayers 22:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Moriori - How does one reconcile the statement in the first paragraph of this article (such skeptical attitudes adhere to a standard of research attributed to Carl Sagan that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence") with the fact that the quote originated with David Hume (who was not a scientist), and also with the fact that a class of U.F.O. reports - in the stochastic analysis of Project Blue Book Special Report #14 - have been shown to represent a class of definite "unknowns"? Unidentified yes; but extraordinary (according to Hume's delineation, and that of the enumerative induction section in John Stuart Mill's logic treatise), not at all. "Unidentified means unidentified", as you say, but "unknowns" have been analysed out as a separate class of "unidentified" object from those classified by "insufficient evidence". Indeed - and, perhaps to your chagrin - as the level of evidence increases, the per centage of "unknowns" increases as compared with "airplanes", "balloons", "insufficient evidence", et cetera. You condescendingly addressed J.Smith about "logic" in a post, but it seems that you are under informed in the subject.-- Michaelsayers 05:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Juliusdedekind. (1)You didn't bring up any of the other policies you wanted to discuss. (2)Anyone reserves to the right to critic a WP:CITE but the cite must be given first. (3)Wikipedia isn't Encyclopedia Britannica 2003. (4)If stuff removed finds its way back into the article with citation then fine. If not, then keep it out by enforcing WP:CITE.
Michaelsayers, (1)You are empowered by wikipedia wikipolicy to remove content that does not WP:CITE. So I am. (2) WP:CITE was asked for since spring of this year. See Previous Archieves. (3)You have all the time in the world to WP:CITE content that is removed because it violates WP:NOR. There is no rush there. (4)I don't dictate wikipolicy.
Like I said before. WP:CITE is inevitable. Once the article has only WP:CITE in it then it can be kept that way by everybody. Week by week evaluation of one line doesn't allow for contributors who keep adding stuff without WP:CITE. WP:CITE and WP:NOR are not my policies. There are wikipedia policies.( Simonapro 09:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Moriori - I did answer your question.
Simonapro - I am for editing of the article, and the 100% accurate derivation of every word of it from cited sources. But the deletion of historical facts, rather than simply rewriting the type so that it is accurate, and rather than researching through all available sources for the citation list, is Stalinistic, to put it mildly. For instance, there might be (say) 900 published references, of varying orders, to the Robertson Panel. One can obtain copies of all of them (for a fee) through remote libraries, government outlets, et c., and after a thorough reading, can have an accurate write up, each sentence of which is referred to the appropriate source. But research takes time, and it seems that what you want is research in 10 days - an impossibility. Most citations here seem to be for internet websites - and there is little academic control over internet content.
So, what will happen once you do the preliminary deletion based on your demands for research, is the rest of the article will have to be deleted too since it is not up to research standards, and replaced with a header that reads "article deleted pending academic research". Thorough research for an article like this - by a dedicated researcher - probably will take 4-8 years minimum (I am sure you are aware how long some Ph.D. theses take).
Rather than having a blank page (and, I assure you that if references to historical facts such as the Robertson Panel have to go, I and others aren't go to simply look the other way in regard to the humiliating sentences, not up to research standard, in almost every paragraph about non-skeptics - as if there are no "non-skeptical" scientists, or the "non-skeptical" scientists are unfamiliar with Hume; what an insult to so many people that paragraph is!), I suggest a compromised approach of going through the article one item per week (some items require considerable nuance to write with 100% finesses and accuracy, and may take longer), to provide a tentative, more-or-less accurate rewrite based on "home research" - not something up to Ph.D. thesis standard, in terms of research or writing, but something functional, and devoid of any philosophical biases (i.e., which says what this source over here says this, and that source over here says, et c., in a 100% literal and coherently structured way). Each of us can add his own findings, as a community - community research for a community encyclopaedia. A week of home research for each item, by dozens or hundreds of people, can resolve this in a year's time (maximum).
But if you can't compromise, then catastrophe is inevitable. Merely being legally - or otherwise - able to do something, doesn't mean that the action is meritorious.
I may go to the encyclopaedia establishment (this encyclopaedia should have a board of directors), who I suspect can prevent you from initiating a power struggle over the content of this article (masqued by you as a struggle over article quality). I don't know much about how this encyclopaedia works, and whether your ultimate powers as editor are de facto or otherwise, but I do know that the board of directors usually has considerable strength over an organization, and when I contact an organization it is always at the top (a music director, or a board of directors), and this seems to be the most effective way of getting things squarely accomplished.
Surely, going into an article, and doing mass deletions, is considered to not be constructive behaviour, and is highly frowned upon.
I am not going to tolerate your abuse of (presumably) de facto editorial powers, so lets try to find a more satisfying approach to the article.-- Michaelsayers 18:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
All that "non-skepticism" implies, at the most, is acceptance of philosphical presuppostions contrary to the philosophical presuppostions in which the "skeptics" believe - this is at the core of the bias in the article as it presently stands. Skeptics, believe as much in their own philosphical presuppositions, as do the non-skeptics - and are, as much, "believers". Of course, it is possible to get beyond philosophical presuppositions (as intimated in some sections of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, the work of U.C. Berkley philosphy professor Stephen C. Pepper, and elsewhere), which is what I endeavor to do.-- Michaelsayers 19:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Simply, WP:CITE is wikipolicy. Wikipolicy dictates that article content needs to cite its sources. We will be dealing with the citations after we deal with the content that is blantantly violating WP:NOR. ( Simonapro 21:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Tell us a) which content doesn't have a reliable source, and b) the source for stating that the questioned source/content is not reliable. I asked something similar to this before, and received no reply. This "we" proves yet again that you are acting in collusion with others, as I alleged: evidently, I was right.
Your notions of reliable vs. unreliable source, are conditioned by your own personal inclinations in relation to this subject matter. Why hide and suppress content and sources - as the encyclopaedias of Stalinist Russia did - unless you are pursuing an ideological agenda [which is what I have been alleging about you and your cohorts all along]? If nothing is being suppressed, then give everyone the specifics to mull over, and don't go through with your planned deletion of data. You (and your cohorts) want an essentially one-man U.F.O. article - I suppose with you as the mouthpiece. YOU ALL ARE NOT GOING TO GET AWAY WITH IT.
There are at least 10 Ph.D. theses related to U.F.O.s that I know of, by the way, loaded with "reliable" sources. They need to be added to the list of citations/bibliography for the article. But I suppose that you are not interested in Ph.D. level research, aren't you?
Your historical viewpoint on the U.F.O. subject is reminiscent of one who is living before the advent of the Freedom Of Information Act.
Go ahead, delete away, rewrite U.S. cold war history so that there was no 1953 Robertson Panel, do whatever you want without restraint, ethics or compunction towards anyone, simply because you can, be the living embodiment of "might makes right". At the least, I don't think you'll be well-appreciated or much admired for this suppression of history, and since you are adamant, I guess we'll have to see what happens at the most.-- Michaelsayers 02:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE is the mandate. As you are new I will overlook your accusations and point you in the direction of WP:CIV ( Simonapro 08:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
I turned on the chanal today when I saw a program on flying saucers was in my TV Guide. Sure enough, they had real footage of a disk shaped hovercraft made by the US military(and similar designs made Nazi German Engineers)
I wouldn't bother to post this here because really, these Saucers have nothing to do with UFOs(as they were made by the US military, making them IFOs) but searching the words 'Flying Saucer' redirects here.
I suggest adding a section on attempts to make Flying Saucers to this article(or an otherwise appropriate one). Wikipedia seems to lack this information entirely. I would do it myself but I don't know much about history, military engineering, flying saucer projects or anything relevant to the subject for that matter. I just watch a lot of educational TV...
Look at the article Military flying saucers to read about known Earth built aircraft, either saucer or disc shaped. The Avro Avrocar (aircraft) was a Canda/USA hovercraft that was scrapped, while a similar looking vehicle was built by the British; the SR-N1, with a rubber skirt around the edges. The SR-N1 was the first practical air-cushioned, hovercraft. Without the rubber skirt around the edges, the Avrocar was unstable and useless. 204.80.61.10 14:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk
i think that ufos might not be aliens but time travellers, maybe in the future we have this kind of technology and a time machine so people travel back in time.
exactly this is my new theorey on ufos and maybe it should be put into the article.
If UFOs come from outer space then...
Speak for yourself. Science doesn't deal only with knowns, and discount unknowns. Moriori 06:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Why are we not detecting any intelligent signals from Outer Space?
This question assumes (1) that the communication technologies developed by ETs are comparable to ours and/or (2) that ETs would actually want to open communication with the "Earthlings" (3) what we call "intelligence" as an established fact for the rest of the universe.
Why are we not picking them up with all the technology we use to monitor space debris?
Again, you have assumed that (1) that with the condition that ETV debris is "picked up," the general "NPOV" public would be notified. (2) In addition, you may have confused the technological ability to monitor our own space debris with that which is not our own.
These are just some minor points I thought needed to be addressed (certainly not exhaustive) before such questions are even asked. -- Juliusdedekind 21:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This question assumes (1) that the communication technologies developed by ETs are comparable to ours and/or..
If you look at the question again it tells you that scientists teach that it is the same stuff everywhere, that stuff being molecules, and the laws of physics should apply across the cosmos. If something is using bandwidth in this solar system, or possibly outside of the solar system, we should be detecting it. Someone suggested that laser technology would be the work-around for this problem but we don't appear to picking up any binary data in terms of flicking light either. It is hard to imagine intelligent life not using the binary system for their laser communication. It has nothing to do with them contacting us. It has everything to do with us at least picking up something. ( Simonapro 11:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC))
If you look at the question again it tells you that scientists teach that it is the same stuff everywhere, that stuff being molecules, and the laws of physics should apply across the cosmos.
The laws of physics are not the same as the INTENT of other beings to utilize those laws accordingly. You can easily assume homogeneity in physical laws (as you understand them) but DO NOT ASSUME homogeneity in other being's use of those laws--to do so is simply narrow and absurd.
If something is using bandwidth in this solar system, or possibly outside of the solar system, we should be detecting it.
Well, that's a big "if" ("but" really) that you will need to prove.
Someone suggested that laser technology would be the work-around for this problem but we don't appear to picking up any binary data in terms of flicking light either. It is hard to imagine intelligent life not using the binary system for their laser communication. It has nothing to do with them contacting us. It has everything to do with us at least picking up something.
Hard to imagine trying to fit your head inside a hypothetical being of which you have no knowledge. -- Juliusdedekind 17:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm doing some rewording of selected sentences from the "Ancient accounts" section through "Hynek system". I'll also be switching the positions of two pairs of paragraphs. If anyone wishes, I can post the before and after versions here, sentence by sentence. -- ChrisWinter 17:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
A while back I wanted to remove the ufology related whatnots to it's article. When I started I quickly found that it was beyond me.
Before we start doing a mass-deletion of WP:V violations I think the article split should be finished. Anyone willing to take this task on? --- J.S ( t| c) 23:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added the common usage of "UFO", which basically refers to any alien spacecraft, even if it's identified as such. Voortle 01:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a deadline looming to remove contributions to the article that violate WP:NOR by not citing sources as per WP:CITE. If you contributed something that did not WP:CITE then you would want to WP:CITE to make sure it stays there. This is part of a requested article clean-up. See above and previous archive. Thanks. ( Simonapro 13:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
WP:NOR is not a threat. It is wiki policy. WP:CITE is not a threat, it is wiki policy. If you have a problem with the policy being Hack and slash then take it up with the policy makers on the policy articles. There is no policy for one thing at a time or the go slow. The go slow has already been implemented. It was called "everyone cite your sources please" and follow wikipolicy. The policy is WP:NOR and WP:CITE. They have had months to cite their sources. ( Simonapro 21:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC))
This is just basic standard wikipolicy of citing sources if you want something in the article. There shouldn't even be a debate on this issue. If it doesn't cite, it goes. I see you have been prompted to cite. Good. That is all anyone is asking. ( Simonapro 17:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC))
No, it is just that you decided to answer the tag queries because this has been brought to your attention. Anybody can add anything to the article and have a fact tag sit around (as they have been) until someone does the work (which was only done when this was brought to your attention, not the tag). What is better is to WP:CITE and do the work so that others do not have to do it. ( Simonapro 18:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
Simonapro - I vow that you shall not succed in your effort to (in your words) "control article content", while masquerading as improving the article quailty (as premised on "WP:" links). I don't know if your ultimate editorial powers are de facto, or are based on a structured proviso integrated into "WP", but I am certain that the board of directors of "WP" - or SOMEONE - will be able to stop your attempt to control article content. I am quite new to "WP", and am extremely busy with non-"WP" matters - but I do know that the president or board of directors has considerable ability to curb abuses within an organization, and usually are the most efficient points of contact for getting things squarely and firmly done.
You seem to have a history of doing this with other articles, without caring about the dissatisfaction of others, or whether or not such radical actions are fully sanctioned by "WP" provisos. "WP" doesn't exist solely to serve for the satisfaction of one person - it is a community effort, based on dialogue and discussion.
Notice how I have mentioned many things in the talk section that need refinement and more suave handling - but that I did not spontaneously implement the changes. That is the civil and scholarly approach, based on discussion and compilation of sources.
J.Smith - please email me through my home page (linked at my user page), if you have the time to do so. I am seeking a briefing on the "WP" subject matter, so that I can attempt to restrain Simonapro from his content-control agenda, but perhaps with more polish and elegance than that to which I may presently be self-availed, if it becomes necessary that I contact "WP" through formal channels. I feel this is the most important subject of modern times, and as prominent as "WP" is with search engines, it is imperative to do everything possible to achieve unbiased presentation of the subject matter - and simply let the facts speak for themselves - and to prevent any person or party of persons from conspiring, or working individually, to control, hijack or steer the content in any direction whatsoever ("skeptical" or "nonskeptical", to use the modern 'Cartesian' terminology), through any position of editorial power whatsoever (whether de facto, or dervied through "WP" provisos).-- Michaelsayers 20:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Careful attention is being made to the claims in the article and the claims in these discussions. I was asked to come here to help solve disputes. The first way of doing that is by enforcing wikipolicy. We will be dealing with citations after removing wikipedia article violations to see if they actually meet WP:CITE. You can debate WP:CITE on WP:CITE. Also see WP:NOT ( Simonapro 21:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC))
JC, watch out for WP:CIV. All I have done is quote wikipolicy to the letter WP:CITE. Wikipedia content needs to be cited. That is the mandate by wiki policy makers. ( Simonapro 08:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
It has been brought to my attention by JC that apparently WP:CITE is not a policy but a style. Unfortunately it is the only answer to WP:NOR that is policy. So I will be applying WP:NOR shortly as the deadline is almost here. I hope you all have respect for the fact that the mandate wasn't just applied right away as it should have been from day#1 but people where given 1/2 a year to cite sources. ( Simonapro 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
You claim to be a new member so you probably (1)where not here for it and (2)don't know how to read the archieve feature which is in the top right had corner. ( Simonapro 22:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=68288727&oldid=68018907 <-- Here they are. ( Simonapro 23:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC))
I would like to know the source of Simonapro's fetish concerning the material of this article. Why should anyone spend so much effort and time, when others can just point to the past articles (of which I plan on doing right here) in the history list? Any respectable researcher will look not only at the content of the current page, but examine the past modifications and reasoning for such. I decided upon reviewing the past "revisions" that it would be far easier to just accept these individual pedants as part of the social and psychological phenomenon concerning these "UFOs." At any rate, anyone who dares show a marked obsession concerning these so-called "revisions" of content must know that their own actions go on record--and as such may end up as a specimen of ridicule in a forthcoming book on the subject.-- Juliusdedekind 16:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
can i create w/photoshop a fake picture and includes it in this article as an evidence? the pictures used in this articles are all big fat fakes including the pseudo FBI/CIA pictures... this is pathetic. people... for J's sake... EnthusiastFR 17:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
How do I know that your comments aren't fake, Enthusiast? --
Juliusdedekind 05:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the conspiracy theory section.
I did it because this was highly redundent to the CS article. Theres still a bunch there... but if anyone disagrees with me feel free to put it back. --- J.S ( t| c) 20:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the trouble is that we call people like Hynek, Friedman, Valle, et al., "ufologists" and keep the term far away from the other "ufologists" who put a lot of effort in studying UFO reports (i.e. in order to debunk them), like Menzel, Klass, etc. -- Juliusdedekind 05:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Are we human beings alone in this vast universe that does not know its boundaries so far? Could there be intelligent beings living on planets other living? If found. Are the more advanced of us, or did not report what we have achieved progress and technological civilization? These and other questions occur to astronomers. They are trying to answer for decades, before they ascend to the human Moon on 20 July 1969. It has increased the desire and determination to search for other forms of life outside Earth.
At the end of last January announced the American Space Agency "NASA" NASA scientists were able to get in the harsh environment Mokhtbrathm similar to those characteristic of the environment of outer space is very deep, and developed what they called primitive cell, It is a film-like structures completely coated board internal cells in living organisms.
Scientists believe that the materials or structures necessary to form an antigen molecules cells, which shows the importance of the origin of life, They exist in all parts vast deep outer space. The American world "Lewis pain Ndola" The new discovery could lead to the conclusion that life exists somewhere in the vast universe with life on Earth.
Dr. "Durkin Jason" from the search for beings in outer space and the California-based life as we know it on Earth uses membrane structures to isolate the chemical processes and protection, required by the life of the factors and external conditions, namely that this is similar to the home of condoms anything outside These materials are membrane-like building materials are immense, allowing chemicals which are the origin of life required for the growth of household formation and evolution of life in other worlds.
It has enabled scientists in laboratories and NASA to provide conditions similar to those existing conditions of outer space, the vacuum is cold, It succeeded in promoting a simple mixture using UV. It is noteworthy in this connection that consists of ice cosmic chemical ordinary vehicles available daily, such as : water, methanol, or wood alcohol, ammonia, carbon dioxide, which are frozen with each other, After a period of such material collectively other materials solid strength if plunged into the water begins to form internal membrane structures in the cells of living organisms. This is true to say-God-almighty God in the Holy Quran : "We have made from water every living thing."
Radio waves
There is also a space center in the United States called the "telescope City," began broadcasting on the life outside the Earth since 1960, About one hundred completed research for 40 years, did not tire Dr. "Frank Drake," and not dictated. attempts to monitor any signs of coming from outer space, perhaps inhabitants of the other planets in the universe.
The project had been originally published as a result of research "Jeosbi Kokoni", "Philip Morrison" a world of physics, Cornell University, In this research found that radio waves might be the best way to communicate between celestial bodies; Thus monitoring the presence of any intelligent life outside Earth.
The German Alveziaian had asked at the outset of the official telescope "Jodrel weep" in London picking up any strange signals coming from abroad. The proposal was rejected, but Dr. Frank Drake gathered idea, and executed, through a telescope City in the state of West Virginia of the United States of America. Now this is a new world to explore life elsewhere in the universe; with the current possibilities which he describes as more than a hundred trillion times possibilities and fixtures which started since 40 years.
Drake says : may be residents of other worlds in our sophisticated technologies thousands of millions of years to say that everything is meaningless; Therefore, we will do what we will be in a form just what Arciolojia future.
The observatory "Jodrel Bank" London has started thereafter to monitor signals coming from outer space. Not only that, there is Mersidan doing the same work for decades, one in Portriko. and the other in Ecuador in South America. Not only is this observatories attempts to capture signals, but broadcast messages saying : We inhabitants of the earth. From you? It is multilingual, perhaps up to the intelligent beings in this vast universe.
Koran and life in the universe
It is not possible to provide conditions conducive to the emergence of life is the only reason to believe that there are other forms of life beyond the planet Earth, But there are other reasons in the forefront of which is that this vast universe contains at least 100 billion galaxies. Within each galaxy there are millions of stellar clusters, such as the solar system, which is located Planet Earth It is a part of the galaxy "path Way" which includes the range between 150 to 200 billion star, and stars revolved around these millions of planets, such as planets, which revolve around the sun. It is incomprehensible that these billions of planets with life at least in some of them.
The discovery of planets outside the solar system one of the reasons for supporting the possible existence of life in space, but in the galaxy; where scientists discovered planet larger than Jupiter orbits the star every 35 years in orbit similar to the buyer orbit around the Sun. This star in the Great Bear. As the world discovered "Alexander and Lskz" The presence of a planet similar to Earth revolves around the neutron star.
Nevertheless, the scientists did not hold physical evidence confirmed the presence of living organisms, whether reasonable or not reasonable in this vast universe, But the Koran - eternal miracle - had told a fact of life the universe and the heavens for more than 14 centuries; almighty God says : "Only God Isadjadua depart Khaba in the heavens and earth" (Al-Naml, a 25) The Khaba : plant, because grains hide in the ground, then planted out, namely, that God cleared vegetation on the ground, as well as ousted it in the sky. The meaning of this life of a plant, It is what the Dr. " Ali Hussein Abdullah "transferred from his book" Are we alone in the universe, "Dr." Muhammad Abduh Ayyash "in an article.
There is evidence Qarani another, but the existence of numbers in the sky, where the height of view : "The creation of yourselves heaven and earth and laying them from the hegemony and is assembled if he likes Kadeer" (Shura no 29) which affirms the existence of God decent numbers in the sky, and not in the land only.
Life on Mars
But there are discoveries astronomers refer to the possibility of the existence of primitive forms of life on other planets; where scientists recently discovered the existence of channels and valleys constructed water on Mars, which is called the Red Planet. The scientists also analysed the meteoroid found at the South Pole 1996, and found that the mass of rock that fell from Mars. with chemical and organic vehicles belonging to more than 3.5 billion years. It also confirms scientists that life originated first on the planet for three billion years.
In 1969 and 1971 found meteorites in Australia, Siberia and the Russian and American scientists studied and discovered there were nine acidification Amineh quality is different from those in the fingerprints, or any components, or outputs Article living on the land. Scientists still hope to find bacteria. or any primitive living cells on the surface of Mars or to the depth of several metres from the sea; and trips through the red planet with advanced equipment during this year, 2003 and 2005.
Other phenomena
Since the 1950s and 1960s to the present century, and with the intensification of a wave of research on the life outside the Earth, Many believed that the land placed under constant surveillance by intelligent beings in space, This is due to a phenomenon called "dishes plane," It is a strange objects luminous elliptical form appeared in the sky, and it has been reported that some fell on the ground. Having first emerged in 1947, and increased interest in the confidentiality added by the American agencies.
The American institutions to study lasted for twenty years. launched the project "Blue Book" to discuss the phenomenon of dishes plane. A team from the University of Colorado report ultimately concluded that the objects to the fact that this phenomenon is not voluntary, and the manufacture of imagination, Continued research is not only a waste of time.
It has been said in some quarters that these scientific objects is only satellites spy, It was in the context of the cold war between the Soviet Union and the United States of America.
There are also beliefs that the continent is a continent called "shuttle" mired beneath the Atlantic Ocean, It was inhabited in the past deep space robots, hallucinations up to say that the inhabitants of this continent are those who know how to build a former Egyptian pyramids.
Some researchers also believe in the strange phenomena that incidents crash over the triangle "Bermuda" is a famous base Lmkhlokat space abduct these aircraft, The research, and the passengers.
Ultimately, the fact remains that there life elsewhere in this vast universe real Quranic uncertain. The search continues for astronomers to find physical evidence of its existence.
In the Republic of Peru in the city of the sun, which contains many of the mountains. And most of these mountains are flat, there are modern airports tracks drop-wheels - Mgrozh plane to land solid and these effects has been in existence since 50000 years so far.
In the area of claims (nation) on the borders of Libya and Algeria mountainous area contains many caves called (Tassili) and contains caves inscriptions on the astronauts and women wearing the centuries on their heads, due to charges 30000 year so far
And also contains a gate to the Sun City (Taiwatako) in Bolivia inscriptions astronauts for thousands of years
And not evidence of the existence of a plane dishes inscriptions and drawings only. It has been mentioned in the books of ancient civilizations as described dishes aircraft and space creatures such as the civilization of India, China and Tibet, Peru and Persians
A lot of content has been removed. (this edit) I'm ok with most of it, except for one thing.... the Christopher Columbus quote did not require a citation. The text provided the source for the info. Because of that no other citation is required. WP:V is satisfied. A ref with a link to where someone can look it up would be nice... and it would be a great idea... but it's not required. I'll see if I can find an online copy of CC's journal, but I'd appreciate it if you replaced that portion. --- J.S ( t| c) 00:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Presently working on The Robertson Panel. The section that was in the article, is not informative or accurate. There is no listing given of the panel members (which included Goudsmit, who is credited with discovery of electron spin; Ruppelt; a C.I.A.-O./S.I. Deputy Assistant Director; the [then] Chief of the Operations Staff for the C.I.A.-O./S.I.; Hynek). There is no history given of the documentation declassification. I will include statements about the panel, from panel member and participant sources, with accurate sourcing.-- Michaelsayers 23:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
As the article is currently conforming to wikipolicy the WP:CITE style is helping to prevent WP:NOR violations. The next step should be to check (YES YOU!) that the citations actually use standards set by WP:CITE. A very high percentage of the citations use web site citations, many of which do not meet the criteria set by WP:CITE. It would be best to cross-reference these citations with citations that are more in line with the quality sought after in WP:CITE. If it is the WP:CITE policy you want to debate, then now is the time to do so. If you have added citations to the article that use web sites as your source then you may want to find another published cite adhering to the criteria in WP:CITE. ( Simonapro 16:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC))
The WP policy sheets do not provide a catalogue of links that are deemed unreliable. While one is certainly allowed to be of a personal opinion, based on original research, that a link is unreliable, original research can not be included in WP articles in any fashion. I am sorry, but this is WP policy.
To quote from Wikipedia:Verifiability -
If you do these edits, Simonapro, the edits might be reversed, in which case if you are adamant about your edits being preserved, the "burden of evidence" will be put on you as to why you "wish" for each "edit to remain". Sincerely,-- Michaelsayers 06:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Please list any unreliable sources here. Until that is done I'll assume everything is fine. --- J.S ( t| c) 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 04:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Unidentified flying object → Alien Spacecraft – By DEFINITION, UFO means "Unidentified flying object." That's the DEFINITION of the word. Connecting to to alien spaceships not only contradicts the "unidentified" part of the word, but it's creating confusion. For the people that want to think that all "UFO's" are alien technology, they should find a better word, one that's more suiting, such as ALIEN SPACECRAFT. This article should be moved on "Alien spacecraft" for that very reason. UFO is nothing more than a word and should be defined on the Wikitionary. It's just plain ignorant to call all alien spacecrafts "UFO's", so why let the ignorance spread to Wikipedia? Anonymouses 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
1. Once you identify an "unidentified flying object" as an alien craft, it's no longer an "unidentified flying object." 2. How much sense does it make to classify all "UFO's" as "alien crafts?" (Some people believe UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft,) This line is saying "Some people believe unidentified flying objects are alien spacecraft. Well, what if I can't identify an object in the sky that actually is an airplane, for instance? Wow, no sense made in that line there. -- Anonymouses 04:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Anonymouses - first of all what you are asking is pretty advanced stuff for the quality of this article to date. We are still trying to get contributors to actually cite verifiable sources first. As for your suggestion... what we have is a historical record for the use of the phrase UFO to sometimes imply Alien Spacecraft. Obviously a direct contradiction of terms but used none-the-less. IMO, this article should identify the contradiction in the terminology. However your approach would be better suited to creating an article called Alien Spacecraft and on completition suggest linkage or even a merger if that may be the case. ( Simonapro 13:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC))
If my evil brother throws something at me, it is a UFO until I can identify it. Is it an alien spacecraft? Probably not! I would call that sort of misinterpretation biased and pointy.
This caption here (from the article) is confusing: "Photo of an alleged UFO taken in New Hampshire in 1870". It could be identified as a flying stick, or it could be unidentified... but I don't know if that's the point. Maybe the writer is actually saying "alleged" UFO as in it's either an unidentified flying object or it's a UFO... or as in it's either a flying stick or an alien spacecraft?
Quite confusing. A move and a rewrite would be a good thing. Alien Spacecraft, however, is not the appropriate title for a new article as it is also very much about one's point of view; perhaps simply the UFO Phenomenon or some such, since these are cases of unidentified perhaps flying objects. It just doesn't feel orderly to put them into the same article as what should be telling people, plain and simple, that UFO is an abbreviation for something flying that has not been identified. Identifying the term UFO with something identifiable is redundant.
--
Anonymouses 12:14, 16 August 2006 (PDT) [False signiture, I did not write that. But I do agree with it! --
Anonymouses 20:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)]
I've merged some of the Ufology cruft over to the Ufology article. If anyone objects let me know and I'll put it back here... --- J.S ( t| c) 20:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs one, and bad. Due to the definition of "Unidentified flying object" it is pointless and meaningless to add every "sighting" of said unidentified flying object. I saw a thing shining in the sky, and I could not identify it. Should I add it into the wikipedia page? Also, under each picture, it says either "claimed," "alleged," or something similar. How can you have an alleged unidentified flying object? Either it's identified, or it's not. The article focuses too much on a specific craft or appearence than the fact that "UFO" can mean anything that is unidentified and flying and is an object. Almost the entire article revolves around the misuse of the word "UFO" as stated in the first paragraph. "To account for hardcore unsolved cases, a number of explanations have been proposed by both proponents and skeptics. " Skeptics? Skeptics of WHAT, exactly? People who are skeptic that it is sometimes impossible to indentify a flying object in the sky, or skeptic of "special unidentifiable craft" that is borrowing on the name UFO and have nothing to do with this article? This article is using the terminology wrong so many times that it seriously needs a major rewrite, and fast. UFO is not a term to describe this stuff. (Yes, it's a UFO by definition, but so is that thing in the air that I can't identify. And hey, it happens to just be a stick.) A really strong example of my case is the See Also section. Almost EVERY LINK in there has to do with "aliens" or "alien-related" sections. This article needs NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIENS! A UFO is, by definition, an unidentified flying object. Not all unidentified flying object are aliens. Not all unidentified flying objects are crafts. The article needs the definition, and nothing else. The article does not need talk about certain objects being UFOs (see above, how a stick can be a UFO), the article does not need UFO sightings (the stick) and the article does not need to talk about how people are skeptic that UFO's exist (see: the stick). All references use the term incorrectly. Although so does the majority of the population, wikipedia should NOT. The people who are using this term incorrectly need to go and find a correct term to use, because UFO is not a good term for you. UFO is a general term for anything unidentified and SHOULD NOT be used to describe an object. (Similiarly, you should not talk about "circular object sightings" and "circular objects" under circle) I really hope you people can see that the article is on bad terms and should be completely rewritten to remove all things even slightly referencing aliens, crafts, or anything besides the definition and the common misuse of the word. For example, here's a good replacement (A UFO or unidentified flying object is any real or apparent flying object which remains unidentified after investigation.
In pop culture, UFO is commonly used to refer to any hypothetical alien spacecraft, even ones that would be identified as such, despite the etymology.) -- Anonymouses 19:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Note: A name you could use to describe these "alleged UFO sightings" could easily be "Sightings of paranormal craft" instead of UFO. -- Anonymouses 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Anonymouses, the most effective way to advocate the dual proposition you stated that "[1]UFO's are unidentified flying objects and [2] have NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIENS"), would be to add content and references for the work of Klass, Menzel, Korff, et al. I don't think there would be any resistance to this. I'll attempt this eventually, if no one else does it first.
For the ratio of words typed, to effective results, I think what I have suggested would be the best path for you to follow.
Contrary to your examples, I can't think of even a single Project Blue Book report that was determined to have been either a stick, or a rock, that had been thrown into the air.-- Michaelsayers 10:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I've read two of Klass' books, and am acquainted with his methods of demystification. Contrary to what you state, he has done investigative work; unless I am misinformed, he travelled to Iran to speak with various parties in relation to the Tehran 1976 reports. -- Michaelsayers 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Did you know that the Robertson Panel does:
Since the rewrite matter has been decided, can the appropriate templates be removed from the article ? Martial Law 06:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This org claims to expose anyone, BOTH UFO proponents and UFO Skeptics AS alleged frauds. Among those claimed to be frauds is Klass and CISCOP. Website is www.ufowatchdog.com. Seen this in their "Hall of Shame 1", 7th on their list. Martial Law 22:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a lack of clarity here. C.I.S.C.O.P. (which is not a person), deals with all manner of subjects (not only U.F.O.s).-- Michaelsayers 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This site claims that aliens, incl. the Greys are hostile to the human race. Site is www.maar.us. Martial Law 18:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
These two radio shows often discuss aliens, UFOs in general. They are Coast To Coast AM and Jeff Rense's radio show. Martial Law 18:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This site links to several UFO websites and data sites. Site is www.mysteries-megasite.com Clicking on UFOs will take the reader to several UFO websites and data sites. Martial Law 19:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Website is www.popularmechanics.com I have two copies which have UFO/Alien matter in them. One has a UFO on the cover, another has what appears to be a naked Grey female alien on the cover. This magazine normally specializes in machinery, home and automotive matters, some military tech matters. Is that useful in the article ? The one with the UFO lists some UFO cases, bits of the Robertson Panel protocol, such as if the witness is a kid, the incident report is to be ignored outright, while the one with the naked alien discribed what and how alien life will look like. Martial Law 19:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth (I'm not copying this over into the main page, because I don't know the situation wrt copyright issues, or authenticity, let alone supposed prior top-secret status), descriptions of UFOBs (extraterrestrial craft) from the Majestic-12 Special Operations Manual, April 1954 (source: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/) 23:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Description of Craft Documented extraterrestrial craft (UFOBs) are classified in one of four categories based on general shape, as follows:
File:UFOBs - extraterrestrial craft chart (maj12).gif Dhatz 23:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Why only after investigation? This sounds wrong, and it's not my understand of the term, or how I would use it. If (hypothetically) I saw something in the sky that I could not identify, does it only become a UFO after it's been investigated? (And by who? In what way?) What am I supposed to call it in the meantime? Suggest this should say: "A UFO or unidentified flying object is any real or apparent flying object which has not been identified and classified as a known phenomena."
www.breakingufonews.com:Latest UFO/Alien News, and www.alienadvice.com: Advisory and Support group for people who had seen a UFO/Alien. Martial Law 20:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The image caption says "This is an alleged 1952 UFO over". Alleged? Either it's unidentified and then it's a UFO, or it's identified and then it's an IFO. I don't get the "alleged" part. // Liftarn
I don't think this section belongs here, but I think it should be discussed first. Perhaps it belongs in the "Scientic Skepticism" article under "See Also" or section. Mapetite526 18:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The following statement from the intro is problematic:
"Once a UFO is identified as a known object (for example an aircraft or weather balloon), it ceases to be a UFO and becomes an identified object. In such cases it is inaccurate to continue to use the acronym UFO to describe the object."
What about a hypothetical situation where the government intentionally misidentified a UFO/Flying saucer as a aircraft or weather balloon as part of the a coverup of aliens? If an incident like Roswell did indeed involve an alien spacecraft whose existence was later covered-up by the U.S. goverment then it would be wrong to say that the object in such a case has been identified since the identification would be false. -- Cab88 21:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
That section was removed. I'd relay like to know why. It has three sources. You (whoever it was) called these three sources unreliable without actually providing reasoning. Please do so here. I'll put it back in the article in a few days otherwise. Thanks, --- J.S ( t| c) 19:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I was the one who removed the Alexander the Great section (again?) There are several things wrong with this paragraph. First, the sources it sites are not primary and are grossly unreliable. "Stranger than Science", as was pointed out, cited an unknown "Fate" Magazine, which in turn has no reference. (Indeed, it may not even exist.) This critique applies to all the "historical instances" that cite "Stranger than Science." In addition to the poor citation, however, the Alexander paragraph has a further flaw in that none of the primary sources from ancient accounts on the seige of Tyre speak anything of flying objects that destroyed Tyre's walls with beams of light. In fact, this historical event is well documented, with the means and type of seige engine used by Alexander explained in great detail.
For further reading on the seige, I refer you to the only real primary source on the subject by Flavius Arrianus. Further reading can be done at
http://cedarland.org/tyre.html
Djma12 18:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Anybody who believes that they are up to the task is invited to expand the Alien/UFO section on the Cattle mutilation page (about people who believe that one causes the other), as it is far too short and contains very little information. Beware, one of the users is really cranky about citation being WP:RS and will probably object to anything that mentions Linda Moulton Howe or laser surgery on cows.
perfectblue 13:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me the captions on several of these photos are kind of wishy-washy and weasely. For instance, the UFO picture from the 1870s; the caption describes it as an "alledged UFO", but that's incorrect - the picture is of a UFO. However, UFO is Unidentified Flying Object, NOT alien spacecraft. Unless there is some identification of the object, then it is definitely a picture of a UFO. It could be an alleged picture of a UFO, i.e. the veracity of the question is in question, or it could be a picture of an alleged alien spacecraft, but if the picture is known to be authentic then it should be labelled as a picture of a UFO, as a UFO is by definition an unidentified flying object. Sticking alledged on everything is silly; it should only be used where appropriate and I'd argue this is just weaseling. I'm as skeptical as the next person, but all the allegedlys are silly and pointless. Out of curiousity, ARE there any explanations for that 1870s picture? That's something I've never seen before and would like to know more about, as it obviously isn't a weather baloon and predates aircraft by 30 years. Titanium Dragon 14:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Is this this link good? Its a pretty good skeptical article from a well known skeptic. This would make a nice addition to the external links list.-- 131.104.138.61 21:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I think its pretty poor that my external link to www.ufo.org can be removed with any reference back to myself.
Obviously people are trying to increase their search rankings by deleting other peoples domains.
both www.ufo.org and www.ufo.net should be on the external links, both have chat boards specially for UFO.
WTF... Why would you delete a link based on your opinion, you must discuss it first because millions of people will look at this article! Mostly alien freaks. anyways.
--[[User:Storkian|Storkian] 01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That one guy needs to stop disapproving of people with UFO theories they want to share here.He's just jealous beause we have brains.We are only expanding the amount of info wikipedia holds.Stop ranting about making the artical better,because some of the ideas you discourage could make this artical much better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
whatever,it's obvious to me you're just some idiot with no real POV of this artical.
Someone please tell me the difference between UFOs. UFOs must mean you see something flying in the air that you don't know what it is. But why am i so confused about UFOs being an "alien airplane"? someone help me not get confused please.
--[[User:Storkian|Storkian] 01:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
i have made an article that the admin here says its similar to this one. i just would like to ask for u guys to read it and if u agree with him, i'll let him delete it. if you think not ro that there needs changes to the article feel free to ask and i will allow the changes Tu-49 23:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
UFOs are real there is huge evedence to support it, first of all they are not made by the USA government but are sometimes test flighted in area 51. Proofe of UFOS exist with old paintings made hundred years ago. The most accurte painting of a UFO space craft that i have seen is "The Madonna with Saint Giovannino painting, painted in 15 centuary before the evention of flight craft. The website of this picture is on http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml -- Marbus2 5 11:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)