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![]() | On 28 February 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Unfree labour to Forced labour. The result of the discussion was moved. |
The article says serfs aren't called 'unfree' labourers in Academic journals. In my experience, they frequently are. CharlieRCD ( talk) 14:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I am the original author of this page. I humbly request that you discuss any major edits here before you make them. Thanks. Grant65 (Talk) 01:32, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
Your example illustrates some interesting points, e.g. 1. the bottle-cap machine (capital equipment) is itself produced by workers, or by machines made and operated by workers, or by robots made and operated by workers, or... So there are ways for capitalists who are not directly involved in the production/distribution of any good to benefit (if not "profit") from the exploitation of other capitalists employees, in addition to that of their own employees. 2. Capital itself is not something completely separate from labour, it is (in Marx's words) "alienated labour". And labour power, once it has been bought/forced from a worker, becomes another form of capital. Grant65 (Talk) 12:24, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
Workers do not recieve 100% of profit, because some will always go to their employer and the goverment. However, a capitalistic society is should in no way be considered as unfree labour as workers are allowed to leave jobs as they choose. 05:29, Feb 17, 2005
I'm having a hard time understanding what wages have to do with the freeness of labor. If I make the choice to work for a penny an hour, a penny a day, or even a penny for a lifetime of work, what makes that unfree if I voluntarily make the choice to do the work and the employer voluntarily makes the choice to hire me? I think my argument is illustrated in the fact that according to this definition people who are working for a "minimal wage" are somehow working against their will (against will=unfree). First, minimal is a very relative term, (how could this possibly be in a definition?), second, wages are only one form of compensation. It doesn't matter how someone is compensated for work that they chose to do, so long as they voluntarily chose to do that work. The only restriction on how they must be compensated is any agreement previously made by the employer and the employee. And, if the employer and employee are exchanging labor for compensation based on an agreement, and it's an agreement that they entered into voluntarily, then what's unfree about it? Note: just because you are pressured to do something, doesn't make it involuntary. You feel a great urge to eat, and if you don't eat you will die, but in the end, only you choose to eat. No one forces you to eat, unless you're being force-fed, but... that's just weird. Johnathlon 02:26, 28 July 2005 (UTC) Further, if I am forced to accept work with unminimal compensation, how is that free? Johnathlon 02:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Why is "Working class" linked. It's like the "proletariat" being in the "slavery" entry. I mean, come on, that sends the subtle signal that being forced to work for one person, and only that one person is equivalent to being part of the so-called "working class". A lot of victims of unfree labor would probably take issue with their casual equation. 24.162.140.213 06:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
I meant to say, "to the extent that unfree labourers are unpaid, they are exploited." Sorry for the confusion. There are many ways to take away people's freedom and one of them is to not pay people above the level of subsistence, or barely above it. That is a normal assumption of the standard literature on unfree labour. An interesting example is one cited in this article, the work of Aborigines in the livestock-raising industry of northern Australia, between the 1850s and 1960s. At one extreme, some were not paid at all and were basically restricted in their movements to the property they worked on, in other cases some were paid well enough to leave and were allowed to do so. The fact that there are degrees (or a spectrum) of freedom/unfreedom involved, however you wish to measure that, does not means that there was no unfree labour.
Workers in Stalinist states are not mentioned but neither are a lot of other intermediate forms (between free and unfree) which may cause controversy if mentioned here. For the record, I don't and have never considered all wage labour to be unfree labour. It doesn't say that in the article and I don't know where you are getting that from.
Adam Smith and David Ricardo (to name but two) used versions of the labour theory of value; were they "left wingers" or "marxists"? Who says I am a left winger and who says left wingers have to "tolerate" you? Take the simple step of registering and you will be taken a little more seriously. Grant65 (Talk) 22:56, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
They don't make sense. Am I right in thinkng that your background is in economics? It shows.
Freedom and the lack thereof have been defined as a lot of different things, by a lot of different philosophers, and yet you appear to believe that your (very limited) definition — which excludes consideration of how individuals may be deprived of freedom through personal economic deprivation — is the only one which applies.
If you have a serious point to make about the neo-classical definition of unfree labour, as a counterpoint to the labour theory of value, feel free to make it in the article. Bear in mind that there are a lot of people who disagree with the neoclassical theory of value and that the reason why they are both theories is that there is no agreement on which is correct, and they are irreconcilable. Grant65 (Talk) 12:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Here is what I am about to change. Please don't revert it wholesale. Instead, please add balance where you think there is none.
Definition: The common definition of unfree labor is labor that is not free to leave. Absolute compensation has little to do with it. Teenagers in suburbia are paid well below subsistence for their area; are they unfree laborers?
"Payment for unfree labour": Why the disparagment of payment as cancellation of debt? If someone has incurred an honest debt to someone who has use for his labor, canceling that person's debt is payment - there's no reason to mock this form of payment. I think what Grant65 is trying to refer to is people who were tricked or coerced into taking on a debt that they really didn't want. In that case, the problem is the tricking or the coercing, not the fact that they are paid through debt cancellation. Also, the reason unfree labor is found more often among migrant laborers is not because of their race or anything like that but because they won't report to the authorities.
"Unfree vs. free": remove reference to "substantial wages"; absolute wage is not the determinant of freeness. Someone can be totally unfree yet get paid a lot. Also, clarify first reference to "free laborers" to "nominally free laborers" since the passage goes on to show ways they are not free. Expand on subjective theory position that workers always receive about the value of their labor.
"Forms/Slavery": Debt slavery: same objections as above (nothing inherently wrong with paying by debt cancellation; terminology trivializes). Remove reference to aboriginals for now until sourced because it makes no since. If workers were rarely paid, why did they bother to work? Need to clarify if they were forced to do the work by "employers".
"Bonded labor": not changing for now, but will if not justified; the description of so-called bonded labor could apply to something as innocent as a professor signing a contract to visit a school to teach for a semester.
"Prison labor": just a question: is it unfree labor if the convict was given a fair process and a fair punishment, but merely offered an opportunity to reduce his sentence by working? Why or why not? If yes, then community service sentences count as unfree labor.
"serfs": I don't understand the justification for not calling them unfree. That they occurred in pre-modern times and by tradition has nothing to do with whether they are free. That passage doesn't make sense.
"Related articles": Add communism, since it's an alternative to the labor system in general, and communist state because it's a form of unfree labor.
24.162.140.213
23:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Grant65 (Talk) 00:10, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Interesting to note that you are a racist 24.162. And please stop putting your comments in the middle of my posts on discussion pages. Grant65 (Talk) 13:22, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
24.162, ever read The Grapes of Wrath? Probably wouldn't appeal to a Randite. There is a great illustration there of how minimal (as opposed to minimum) wage systems operate to keep workers tied to one place by means of the company store, etc. Such systems are both difficult to impose and difficlt to conceive for us, in the developed world in the 21st century. Not so for indigenous people in outback Australia during 1851-1947, or in the US during the Great Depression. I'm not sure there is really any point in discussing this with you, since you insist that a minimalist definition of freedom is the only one that applies on this page. Grant65 (Talk) 04:08, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know who inserts this piece and I even agree that this is a valid viewpoint. But unless you provide a reputable source where this or similar conclusion was made, this is your original research in the very direct application of the notion. What is more: some people cal U.S. tax system extortion, robbery and other words (and for reasons), but we are not going to insert a section "United States tax" into all these articles. Finally, I strongly suspect you don't know what you are talking about: emigration was not legally forbidden in Soviet Union (I cannot speak for all commie states, may be in Albania?). mikka (t) 15:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with Mr Voluntarist on this point; in any historical context, the existence or non-existence of de jure laws about anything is neither here nor there, and is meaningless in the face of de facto rules. Grant65 (Talk) 11:08, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
The section above suggests that this notion depends of the political POV. I am pretty sure that there are publications that describe labor in commies states as slave labor, and I am surprized that no one pointed to them yet, thus closing this silly bickering.
On the other hand, Marxism holds that capitalism enslaves labour. In fact, in 19th century there was a Marxist group (in Russia?) called Emancipation of the Labour.
Therefore the article has to have the section under this title.
For those who don't have stiff brains, I would aslo suggest to consider the comparison of mandatory military service and mandatory labor. Many religious doctrines consider labour a sacred duty of Man inposed unto him by God. Therefore criticizing the fact that commie states mandated labour should look ridiculous to, say, mormons.
I would also to point to the " Conscription" article for more examples of unfree labor. mikka (t) 23:47, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Advised also is to look into google search results for the following criteria [ "mandatory labor" -"labor law" ], [ obligatory labor" ], [ obligatory labour" ]. and try to understand the difference between these terms and that of " unfree labour". mikka (t) 23:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Labor Army article is instructive as well. mikka (t) 23:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I think we're losing the plot here; the literature on unfree labour doesn't include community service accepted as a consequence of belonging to religious communities, or modern military conscription (which is paid, generally has a fixed term and/or is imposed as an emergency measure). But there is this matter of (e.g.) the Berlin Wall, which is a complete contradiction of pre-Soviet Marxist ideologies and slogans. Grant65 (Talk) 03:40, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Here is quote from Hans-Hermann Hoppe in Democracy: The God that Failed pp. 24-25n. Let me know how much of it is relevant to this article and Wikipedia.
It is a good starting point that allows you to introduce this opinion into the article. It must be clearly explained, though, that this is an extension of the traditional notion of slavery in application to modern phenomena. mikka (t) 22:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to address the Mr Hoppe and his refreshing comedy routine more fully at the moment. I just wanted to say that I think Mikka is wrong about the statistics on life expectancy, especially when compared (e.g.) with life expectancy in Russia now, 12 years after the end of the Soviet regime. He also says "have read interesting memoires of a German immigrant to America South, who was a construction worker. He writes that the life of free workers was utterly miserable in comparison with slaves from cottom plantations." One apologist for slavery isn't enough to sweep away what we know about that system. This would be funny it it wasn't so sad. Grant65 (Talk) 00:58, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
I'm disputing the objectivity of a couple sections of this article.
First, the section on payment. Why does payment have any relevancy in terms of unfree labor? Isn't unfree labor simply forced labor, what does it matter how they are paid? I understand that perhaps it could be interesting to point out how these "unfree laborers" are usually paid, if at all, but the way you described it doesn't really make sense. Instead, it looks like a thinly-veiled attempt at making a point about a living wage, which would be POV. If it's not, please expound on what the relevancy is of payment for unfree labor and what specifically you mean by vague terms such as "not desirable" and "cannot be exchange." I simply am confused as to the point of including this section.
Second, the section on the " truck system." I already had to clean up a lot of excess POV from the stub on it. First of all, exploitation is not a word that should be used in articles of this sort. You can say that some people claim that the system exploits workers, and list who says that. But to simply assert is unacceptable. Second, you declare the goods they are given as unexchangeable. How can you suggest that without backing it up? Anything is exchangeable if it has value to people. Explain this further.
Just trying to help. Aplomado 21:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
This is like arguing with people who object to snowmen being defined as white.
Let's see. It wouldn't be a truck system if workers weren't paid in unwanted and/or unexchangeable goods, so....if they are, it is a truck system, if they aren't, it isn't a truck system.
It's POV to say that some people are paid less than a living wage? That's an interesting idea.
Regarding exploitation through wage levels. For the umpteenth time, it is my considered opinion and those of many scholars that absolute levels of wages, relative to the particular historical circumstances in which a worker or workers exist/s, are a form of corecion, if the levels of those wages (e.g. they are below the level of subsistence) impinge on the normal freedom of movement, speech or action (relative to the civil rights of the time and place).
Obviously not much of the above applies to those of us in present day/first world/developed countries, but we are a very small proportion of the total number of wage earners who have ever existed. Grant65 | Talk 08:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Isn't conscription a form of unfree labor? The workers do not have the freedom to quit and the wages are less than what would be required to entice people of their own free will. — Dgies t c 01:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I am aware that there is already a page allocated for Laogai, but I felt it would be benefical for the reader to have a contemporary example; therefore I have added the the following sentence at the end of the "Labor Camps" paragraph, along with a link to the Laogai Research Foundation at the bottom of this page.
"China's labour reform system called the Laogai is a current example running today."
2share 06:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article reduces the problem to camps. In reality both systems used to use many forms of unfree labor. Kolkhos workers didn't have passports, so they weren't able to travel or move, which was classical serfdom. Forced workers in Germany frequently lived outside camps. Xx236 11:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The articles states "Perhaps the most prominent example of chattel slavery was the enslavement of many millions of black people in Africa, as well as their enforced transplantation to the Americas, Asia or Europe where their status as slaves was usually inherited by their descendants." - this wording is very unlucky as it brings up the idea that the transportation like that of the transantlantic slave trade had parallel occurrences of transport to Europe. However in fact the slavery in medieval Europe had ended in the 15. century already. This had practical reasons and not so much legal status - just note how many European peasants left to oversea colonies in the 15. to 19. century - bringing Black slaves to Europe was simply not needed. Many European emperors did ban slave trade in their mainlands even though they were accepting it in the oversea colonies - again, for practical reasons to exploit the new territories. So, while one can not deny the mere existance, the numbers were extremely low - leaving the wording of "millions of black... transplation to... Europe" to be untrue. Guidod 15:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
A lot of the issues people raise above about this article having a "leftist" bias, and the comments about "the literature on unfree labour" all point to what I think it most missing from this article. The term "unfree labor" is basically one of Marxist political economy, is it not? If I'm right about that, a bit like the article on involuntary servitude, this article ought to make it clear that it is about a technical concept used in a limited context. It should say who coined the term as it is used here (if this is known) and maybe add a section about critiques of the concept (the only one I know of is that of Banajee, but given all the objections people raise here, I'm sure he's not the only one). I don't know enough to write such a section myself yet, that's actually the whole reason I came to this article in the first place. -- Brian Z ( talk) 06:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Should industrial conscription be included in this article, or a new article? An example of industrial conscription is the British and Australian governments directing civilians to work in specified industries during World War II. The workers were paid the going wage for their labour and were treated like all other employees, but were not free to chose the industry they worked in. -- Nick Dowling ( talk) 01:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
First.
This section is based on a misrepresentation of both the content and place within economic theory of the Labour theory of value. What this paragraph is replicating is the Marxist view that because wages do not represent the value of what is produced this is an exploitation (i know it's more complicated than that, but that is the gist). Fair enough. Cite Marx. It makes sense. However, it is not the view of anyone whose work would be taught as "Economics" today. Adam Smith, rejected the Labour theory of value in any capitalist economy as does pretty much every recognised economist who has come after. Language like "capitalists" makes it clear to the astute reader that this is a socialist/communist point of view and should very much be labelled as such. This implication is a claim made by some, but certainly does not represent a consensus society view (or even more than a fringe minority view).
The sentance about Subjective theory of value doesn't make sense where it is. Is it a rebuttle of the first sentance? Then the sentece "supporters of certain theories of distributive justice that any occasion on which a worker is able to turn down employment and look elsewhere is "free labour" marginalises what is the dominant view of economists, western law and probably most people in western society as "supporters of certain theories of distributive justice. Many people would argue that the right to work for whoever will take them for whatever they can get is the most important freedom in Democracy (particularly Americans....they love that stuff....just listen to the US Presidential candidates).
Unfortunately (as you may have guessed from my POV) I'm not very well read in socialist/marxist/communist theory and don't have the citations to really fix this section. If anyone still keeps up on this article's talk page it would be awesome to see if we can reach a more informative (and better cited) consensus for this article. Jabberwalkee ( talk) 05:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Grant65. There seem to have been a lot of dust-ups on this Talk page in the past regarding this article's leaning on the labor theory of economics. I don't mean to pick a fight, but are you aware of the guidelines set out for ideas departing significantly from the prevailing view in their field of study in Wikipedia:Fringe_theories? In a nutshell, the guideline states that the article should be primarily dedicated to the mainstream point of view, with a definite but lesser amount of emphasis on the non-mainstream theory. As things are, the article seems to treat neoclassical and labor models of economics as roughly equal at best, probably tipping toward the labor model.
Quite apart from the correctness or incorrectness of either model, the guidelines of this encyclopedia hold- quite sensibly, in my opinion- that the mainstream opinion of the field of economics is to be given primacy over the minority opinion of the labor theory in this article. That in mind, do you have any remaining objections to a re-write of this page to that effect? - Toptomcat ( talk) 07:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the major problem is the positioning of information regarding "payment of unfree labour." It is trying to make a marxist economic point, which is f"ine, but it probably doesn't belong before descriptions of slavery and other forms of labour which pretty much everyone would agree are "unfree." Also, as I have mentioned above, such ideas should be expressed noting that they are not the views of mainstream economics. -- Jabberwalkee ( talk) 01:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Corvée.-- İnfoCan ( talk) 02:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Angaria (Roman law). -- İnfoCan ( talk) 20:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not so sure this belongs here. It sounds more like a stereotype or folk myth than a real syndrome. Supposedly Spanish-speaking grandmothers are dying off because no-one appreciates their work . . . meanwhile all treatments are useless. Apparently this syndrome only effects you if you speak Spanish, have great virtue, and get all your happiness from serving your family and your beautiful grandchildren.
Somebody really needs to pay some attention to this article. Or delete it. As it stands its pretty unencyclopedic. 76.115.59.36 ( talk) 08:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, regarding the discussion/war I just read through up top . . . we're all slaves of one thing : our egos. 76.115.59.36 ( talk) 08:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)\
I was always under the impression that indenture wasn't considered unfree since it was entered into willingly as a contract: e.g. "you take me to America and I'll work for you for seven years." Surely it isn't 'unfree' just because the person can't back out partway through, any more than any other contract is coercive?
I understand that it was often abusive and even slavery-like *in practice*, but surely the *concept* is fundamentally different? Vultur ( talk) 03:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Isn't workfare a (rather insidious) form of unfree labour? For instance a British woman, Cat Reilley is going to court over being forced to work at a "thrift shop" in return for benefits which are far lower than the UK minimum wage and under threat of destitution. Seems like it fits the bill for unfree labour to me, unless of course you're of the persuasion that oppression isn't oppression when it happens in the West.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/887128-graduate-told-to-work-for-free-or-lose-benefits#ixzz1jGdXau1Z — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.130.14 ( talk) 01:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
The "Payment for unfree labour" section seems inconsistent with the definitions given in the preceding (introductory) section.
It appears to imply that, somehow, forced labour is not "unfree" if the payment is sufficient.
But the distinction between "free" and "unfree" turns on choice, not payment.
If a person is well-paid, yet forced to perform work on pain of physical punishment, and physically confined such that she is unable to leave or "quit", I don't see how the payment, whatever the amount, turns "unfree" into "free" labor. It is the restriction of choice that makes the labour unfree, regardless of payment.
Surely a slave paid USD 1000 daily - or USD 1M - is still a slave if he is forced to work against his will.
I think the "payment" section needs revision so as to avoid implying otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.180.174 ( talk) 05:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, according to this article in today's New York Times, more than two decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union (but with Islam Karimov's autocratic rule unchanged) Uzbeks must still provide "volunteer" labor, picking the cotton the government has a monopoly on (or, rather, in domestic terms, a monopsony since it's grown by private farmers). Stalinism lives! It even has a picture that so looks like the women in it are posing for a Soviet propaganda poster that I half expect to see "CЛABA TPУДУ!" in big red letters near the top.
Anyway, all amazement aside, something about this should be in the article, at least. And in Agriculture in Uzbekistan, perhaps, as well. Or maybe even a separate article? I doubt the Times is the only reliable source to have covered this. Daniel Case ( talk) 19:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Should compulsory education be considered unfree labour ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliketoeatbeansalot ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:06, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Conscript labor redirects here, but it might better redirect to civil mobilization. In any case the article seems to be a kind of smorgasboard of ideas under the banner of unfree labor, but unfree as is required, and unfree as in required and not compensated, are very different things. Being forced to work and being forced to work for no pay, in simpler terms, are different and categorically different as to make it the main distinction to make in this article. - Inowen ( talk) 07:42, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) JJP...MASTER! [talk to] JJP... master? 16:42, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Unfree labour →
Forced labour – Per
WP:COMMONNAME, since "forced labo[u]r" is orders of magnitude more common
[2] in published sources than "unfree labo[u]r", which appears to be an uncommon and rather recent academic neologism. (Per
MOS:ENGVAR, neither the "labor" nor "labour" spelling should be preferred; whatever was established in the first non-stub version of the article should be retained, absent a strong national tie, which of course will not exist for this topic.) —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
13:21, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Given that we've been slowly undoing the thrall of the Stanford Prison experiment as psychologically valuable, since it violated every aspect of scientific experiment, and also given that the students were paid and also had their grades held over their heads as extortion--I don't think it counts as an example of forced labor as the definition has it. If we think that the Stanford experiment counts as a flavor of slavery, that needs a citation. 47.222.125.80 ( talk) 05:22, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:Slavery which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 10:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | On 28 February 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Unfree labour to Forced labour. The result of the discussion was moved. |
The article says serfs aren't called 'unfree' labourers in Academic journals. In my experience, they frequently are. CharlieRCD ( talk) 14:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I am the original author of this page. I humbly request that you discuss any major edits here before you make them. Thanks. Grant65 (Talk) 01:32, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
Your example illustrates some interesting points, e.g. 1. the bottle-cap machine (capital equipment) is itself produced by workers, or by machines made and operated by workers, or by robots made and operated by workers, or... So there are ways for capitalists who are not directly involved in the production/distribution of any good to benefit (if not "profit") from the exploitation of other capitalists employees, in addition to that of their own employees. 2. Capital itself is not something completely separate from labour, it is (in Marx's words) "alienated labour". And labour power, once it has been bought/forced from a worker, becomes another form of capital. Grant65 (Talk) 12:24, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
Workers do not recieve 100% of profit, because some will always go to their employer and the goverment. However, a capitalistic society is should in no way be considered as unfree labour as workers are allowed to leave jobs as they choose. 05:29, Feb 17, 2005
I'm having a hard time understanding what wages have to do with the freeness of labor. If I make the choice to work for a penny an hour, a penny a day, or even a penny for a lifetime of work, what makes that unfree if I voluntarily make the choice to do the work and the employer voluntarily makes the choice to hire me? I think my argument is illustrated in the fact that according to this definition people who are working for a "minimal wage" are somehow working against their will (against will=unfree). First, minimal is a very relative term, (how could this possibly be in a definition?), second, wages are only one form of compensation. It doesn't matter how someone is compensated for work that they chose to do, so long as they voluntarily chose to do that work. The only restriction on how they must be compensated is any agreement previously made by the employer and the employee. And, if the employer and employee are exchanging labor for compensation based on an agreement, and it's an agreement that they entered into voluntarily, then what's unfree about it? Note: just because you are pressured to do something, doesn't make it involuntary. You feel a great urge to eat, and if you don't eat you will die, but in the end, only you choose to eat. No one forces you to eat, unless you're being force-fed, but... that's just weird. Johnathlon 02:26, 28 July 2005 (UTC) Further, if I am forced to accept work with unminimal compensation, how is that free? Johnathlon 02:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Why is "Working class" linked. It's like the "proletariat" being in the "slavery" entry. I mean, come on, that sends the subtle signal that being forced to work for one person, and only that one person is equivalent to being part of the so-called "working class". A lot of victims of unfree labor would probably take issue with their casual equation. 24.162.140.213 06:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
I meant to say, "to the extent that unfree labourers are unpaid, they are exploited." Sorry for the confusion. There are many ways to take away people's freedom and one of them is to not pay people above the level of subsistence, or barely above it. That is a normal assumption of the standard literature on unfree labour. An interesting example is one cited in this article, the work of Aborigines in the livestock-raising industry of northern Australia, between the 1850s and 1960s. At one extreme, some were not paid at all and were basically restricted in their movements to the property they worked on, in other cases some were paid well enough to leave and were allowed to do so. The fact that there are degrees (or a spectrum) of freedom/unfreedom involved, however you wish to measure that, does not means that there was no unfree labour.
Workers in Stalinist states are not mentioned but neither are a lot of other intermediate forms (between free and unfree) which may cause controversy if mentioned here. For the record, I don't and have never considered all wage labour to be unfree labour. It doesn't say that in the article and I don't know where you are getting that from.
Adam Smith and David Ricardo (to name but two) used versions of the labour theory of value; were they "left wingers" or "marxists"? Who says I am a left winger and who says left wingers have to "tolerate" you? Take the simple step of registering and you will be taken a little more seriously. Grant65 (Talk) 22:56, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
They don't make sense. Am I right in thinkng that your background is in economics? It shows.
Freedom and the lack thereof have been defined as a lot of different things, by a lot of different philosophers, and yet you appear to believe that your (very limited) definition — which excludes consideration of how individuals may be deprived of freedom through personal economic deprivation — is the only one which applies.
If you have a serious point to make about the neo-classical definition of unfree labour, as a counterpoint to the labour theory of value, feel free to make it in the article. Bear in mind that there are a lot of people who disagree with the neoclassical theory of value and that the reason why they are both theories is that there is no agreement on which is correct, and they are irreconcilable. Grant65 (Talk) 12:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Here is what I am about to change. Please don't revert it wholesale. Instead, please add balance where you think there is none.
Definition: The common definition of unfree labor is labor that is not free to leave. Absolute compensation has little to do with it. Teenagers in suburbia are paid well below subsistence for their area; are they unfree laborers?
"Payment for unfree labour": Why the disparagment of payment as cancellation of debt? If someone has incurred an honest debt to someone who has use for his labor, canceling that person's debt is payment - there's no reason to mock this form of payment. I think what Grant65 is trying to refer to is people who were tricked or coerced into taking on a debt that they really didn't want. In that case, the problem is the tricking or the coercing, not the fact that they are paid through debt cancellation. Also, the reason unfree labor is found more often among migrant laborers is not because of their race or anything like that but because they won't report to the authorities.
"Unfree vs. free": remove reference to "substantial wages"; absolute wage is not the determinant of freeness. Someone can be totally unfree yet get paid a lot. Also, clarify first reference to "free laborers" to "nominally free laborers" since the passage goes on to show ways they are not free. Expand on subjective theory position that workers always receive about the value of their labor.
"Forms/Slavery": Debt slavery: same objections as above (nothing inherently wrong with paying by debt cancellation; terminology trivializes). Remove reference to aboriginals for now until sourced because it makes no since. If workers were rarely paid, why did they bother to work? Need to clarify if they were forced to do the work by "employers".
"Bonded labor": not changing for now, but will if not justified; the description of so-called bonded labor could apply to something as innocent as a professor signing a contract to visit a school to teach for a semester.
"Prison labor": just a question: is it unfree labor if the convict was given a fair process and a fair punishment, but merely offered an opportunity to reduce his sentence by working? Why or why not? If yes, then community service sentences count as unfree labor.
"serfs": I don't understand the justification for not calling them unfree. That they occurred in pre-modern times and by tradition has nothing to do with whether they are free. That passage doesn't make sense.
"Related articles": Add communism, since it's an alternative to the labor system in general, and communist state because it's a form of unfree labor.
24.162.140.213
23:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Grant65 (Talk) 00:10, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Interesting to note that you are a racist 24.162. And please stop putting your comments in the middle of my posts on discussion pages. Grant65 (Talk) 13:22, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
24.162, ever read The Grapes of Wrath? Probably wouldn't appeal to a Randite. There is a great illustration there of how minimal (as opposed to minimum) wage systems operate to keep workers tied to one place by means of the company store, etc. Such systems are both difficult to impose and difficlt to conceive for us, in the developed world in the 21st century. Not so for indigenous people in outback Australia during 1851-1947, or in the US during the Great Depression. I'm not sure there is really any point in discussing this with you, since you insist that a minimalist definition of freedom is the only one that applies on this page. Grant65 (Talk) 04:08, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know who inserts this piece and I even agree that this is a valid viewpoint. But unless you provide a reputable source where this or similar conclusion was made, this is your original research in the very direct application of the notion. What is more: some people cal U.S. tax system extortion, robbery and other words (and for reasons), but we are not going to insert a section "United States tax" into all these articles. Finally, I strongly suspect you don't know what you are talking about: emigration was not legally forbidden in Soviet Union (I cannot speak for all commie states, may be in Albania?). mikka (t) 15:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with Mr Voluntarist on this point; in any historical context, the existence or non-existence of de jure laws about anything is neither here nor there, and is meaningless in the face of de facto rules. Grant65 (Talk) 11:08, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
The section above suggests that this notion depends of the political POV. I am pretty sure that there are publications that describe labor in commies states as slave labor, and I am surprized that no one pointed to them yet, thus closing this silly bickering.
On the other hand, Marxism holds that capitalism enslaves labour. In fact, in 19th century there was a Marxist group (in Russia?) called Emancipation of the Labour.
Therefore the article has to have the section under this title.
For those who don't have stiff brains, I would aslo suggest to consider the comparison of mandatory military service and mandatory labor. Many religious doctrines consider labour a sacred duty of Man inposed unto him by God. Therefore criticizing the fact that commie states mandated labour should look ridiculous to, say, mormons.
I would also to point to the " Conscription" article for more examples of unfree labor. mikka (t) 23:47, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Advised also is to look into google search results for the following criteria [ "mandatory labor" -"labor law" ], [ obligatory labor" ], [ obligatory labour" ]. and try to understand the difference between these terms and that of " unfree labour". mikka (t) 23:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Labor Army article is instructive as well. mikka (t) 23:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I think we're losing the plot here; the literature on unfree labour doesn't include community service accepted as a consequence of belonging to religious communities, or modern military conscription (which is paid, generally has a fixed term and/or is imposed as an emergency measure). But there is this matter of (e.g.) the Berlin Wall, which is a complete contradiction of pre-Soviet Marxist ideologies and slogans. Grant65 (Talk) 03:40, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Here is quote from Hans-Hermann Hoppe in Democracy: The God that Failed pp. 24-25n. Let me know how much of it is relevant to this article and Wikipedia.
It is a good starting point that allows you to introduce this opinion into the article. It must be clearly explained, though, that this is an extension of the traditional notion of slavery in application to modern phenomena. mikka (t) 22:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't have time to address the Mr Hoppe and his refreshing comedy routine more fully at the moment. I just wanted to say that I think Mikka is wrong about the statistics on life expectancy, especially when compared (e.g.) with life expectancy in Russia now, 12 years after the end of the Soviet regime. He also says "have read interesting memoires of a German immigrant to America South, who was a construction worker. He writes that the life of free workers was utterly miserable in comparison with slaves from cottom plantations." One apologist for slavery isn't enough to sweep away what we know about that system. This would be funny it it wasn't so sad. Grant65 (Talk) 00:58, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
I'm disputing the objectivity of a couple sections of this article.
First, the section on payment. Why does payment have any relevancy in terms of unfree labor? Isn't unfree labor simply forced labor, what does it matter how they are paid? I understand that perhaps it could be interesting to point out how these "unfree laborers" are usually paid, if at all, but the way you described it doesn't really make sense. Instead, it looks like a thinly-veiled attempt at making a point about a living wage, which would be POV. If it's not, please expound on what the relevancy is of payment for unfree labor and what specifically you mean by vague terms such as "not desirable" and "cannot be exchange." I simply am confused as to the point of including this section.
Second, the section on the " truck system." I already had to clean up a lot of excess POV from the stub on it. First of all, exploitation is not a word that should be used in articles of this sort. You can say that some people claim that the system exploits workers, and list who says that. But to simply assert is unacceptable. Second, you declare the goods they are given as unexchangeable. How can you suggest that without backing it up? Anything is exchangeable if it has value to people. Explain this further.
Just trying to help. Aplomado 21:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
This is like arguing with people who object to snowmen being defined as white.
Let's see. It wouldn't be a truck system if workers weren't paid in unwanted and/or unexchangeable goods, so....if they are, it is a truck system, if they aren't, it isn't a truck system.
It's POV to say that some people are paid less than a living wage? That's an interesting idea.
Regarding exploitation through wage levels. For the umpteenth time, it is my considered opinion and those of many scholars that absolute levels of wages, relative to the particular historical circumstances in which a worker or workers exist/s, are a form of corecion, if the levels of those wages (e.g. they are below the level of subsistence) impinge on the normal freedom of movement, speech or action (relative to the civil rights of the time and place).
Obviously not much of the above applies to those of us in present day/first world/developed countries, but we are a very small proportion of the total number of wage earners who have ever existed. Grant65 | Talk 08:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Isn't conscription a form of unfree labor? The workers do not have the freedom to quit and the wages are less than what would be required to entice people of their own free will. — Dgies t c 01:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I am aware that there is already a page allocated for Laogai, but I felt it would be benefical for the reader to have a contemporary example; therefore I have added the the following sentence at the end of the "Labor Camps" paragraph, along with a link to the Laogai Research Foundation at the bottom of this page.
"China's labour reform system called the Laogai is a current example running today."
2share 06:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article reduces the problem to camps. In reality both systems used to use many forms of unfree labor. Kolkhos workers didn't have passports, so they weren't able to travel or move, which was classical serfdom. Forced workers in Germany frequently lived outside camps. Xx236 11:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The articles states "Perhaps the most prominent example of chattel slavery was the enslavement of many millions of black people in Africa, as well as their enforced transplantation to the Americas, Asia or Europe where their status as slaves was usually inherited by their descendants." - this wording is very unlucky as it brings up the idea that the transportation like that of the transantlantic slave trade had parallel occurrences of transport to Europe. However in fact the slavery in medieval Europe had ended in the 15. century already. This had practical reasons and not so much legal status - just note how many European peasants left to oversea colonies in the 15. to 19. century - bringing Black slaves to Europe was simply not needed. Many European emperors did ban slave trade in their mainlands even though they were accepting it in the oversea colonies - again, for practical reasons to exploit the new territories. So, while one can not deny the mere existance, the numbers were extremely low - leaving the wording of "millions of black... transplation to... Europe" to be untrue. Guidod 15:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
A lot of the issues people raise above about this article having a "leftist" bias, and the comments about "the literature on unfree labour" all point to what I think it most missing from this article. The term "unfree labor" is basically one of Marxist political economy, is it not? If I'm right about that, a bit like the article on involuntary servitude, this article ought to make it clear that it is about a technical concept used in a limited context. It should say who coined the term as it is used here (if this is known) and maybe add a section about critiques of the concept (the only one I know of is that of Banajee, but given all the objections people raise here, I'm sure he's not the only one). I don't know enough to write such a section myself yet, that's actually the whole reason I came to this article in the first place. -- Brian Z ( talk) 06:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Should industrial conscription be included in this article, or a new article? An example of industrial conscription is the British and Australian governments directing civilians to work in specified industries during World War II. The workers were paid the going wage for their labour and were treated like all other employees, but were not free to chose the industry they worked in. -- Nick Dowling ( talk) 01:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
First.
This section is based on a misrepresentation of both the content and place within economic theory of the Labour theory of value. What this paragraph is replicating is the Marxist view that because wages do not represent the value of what is produced this is an exploitation (i know it's more complicated than that, but that is the gist). Fair enough. Cite Marx. It makes sense. However, it is not the view of anyone whose work would be taught as "Economics" today. Adam Smith, rejected the Labour theory of value in any capitalist economy as does pretty much every recognised economist who has come after. Language like "capitalists" makes it clear to the astute reader that this is a socialist/communist point of view and should very much be labelled as such. This implication is a claim made by some, but certainly does not represent a consensus society view (or even more than a fringe minority view).
The sentance about Subjective theory of value doesn't make sense where it is. Is it a rebuttle of the first sentance? Then the sentece "supporters of certain theories of distributive justice that any occasion on which a worker is able to turn down employment and look elsewhere is "free labour" marginalises what is the dominant view of economists, western law and probably most people in western society as "supporters of certain theories of distributive justice. Many people would argue that the right to work for whoever will take them for whatever they can get is the most important freedom in Democracy (particularly Americans....they love that stuff....just listen to the US Presidential candidates).
Unfortunately (as you may have guessed from my POV) I'm not very well read in socialist/marxist/communist theory and don't have the citations to really fix this section. If anyone still keeps up on this article's talk page it would be awesome to see if we can reach a more informative (and better cited) consensus for this article. Jabberwalkee ( talk) 05:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Grant65. There seem to have been a lot of dust-ups on this Talk page in the past regarding this article's leaning on the labor theory of economics. I don't mean to pick a fight, but are you aware of the guidelines set out for ideas departing significantly from the prevailing view in their field of study in Wikipedia:Fringe_theories? In a nutshell, the guideline states that the article should be primarily dedicated to the mainstream point of view, with a definite but lesser amount of emphasis on the non-mainstream theory. As things are, the article seems to treat neoclassical and labor models of economics as roughly equal at best, probably tipping toward the labor model.
Quite apart from the correctness or incorrectness of either model, the guidelines of this encyclopedia hold- quite sensibly, in my opinion- that the mainstream opinion of the field of economics is to be given primacy over the minority opinion of the labor theory in this article. That in mind, do you have any remaining objections to a re-write of this page to that effect? - Toptomcat ( talk) 07:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the major problem is the positioning of information regarding "payment of unfree labour." It is trying to make a marxist economic point, which is f"ine, but it probably doesn't belong before descriptions of slavery and other forms of labour which pretty much everyone would agree are "unfree." Also, as I have mentioned above, such ideas should be expressed noting that they are not the views of mainstream economics. -- Jabberwalkee ( talk) 01:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Corvée.-- İnfoCan ( talk) 02:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is missing a section on, or a mention of Angaria (Roman law). -- İnfoCan ( talk) 20:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not so sure this belongs here. It sounds more like a stereotype or folk myth than a real syndrome. Supposedly Spanish-speaking grandmothers are dying off because no-one appreciates their work . . . meanwhile all treatments are useless. Apparently this syndrome only effects you if you speak Spanish, have great virtue, and get all your happiness from serving your family and your beautiful grandchildren.
Somebody really needs to pay some attention to this article. Or delete it. As it stands its pretty unencyclopedic. 76.115.59.36 ( talk) 08:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, regarding the discussion/war I just read through up top . . . we're all slaves of one thing : our egos. 76.115.59.36 ( talk) 08:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)\
I was always under the impression that indenture wasn't considered unfree since it was entered into willingly as a contract: e.g. "you take me to America and I'll work for you for seven years." Surely it isn't 'unfree' just because the person can't back out partway through, any more than any other contract is coercive?
I understand that it was often abusive and even slavery-like *in practice*, but surely the *concept* is fundamentally different? Vultur ( talk) 03:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Isn't workfare a (rather insidious) form of unfree labour? For instance a British woman, Cat Reilley is going to court over being forced to work at a "thrift shop" in return for benefits which are far lower than the UK minimum wage and under threat of destitution. Seems like it fits the bill for unfree labour to me, unless of course you're of the persuasion that oppression isn't oppression when it happens in the West.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/887128-graduate-told-to-work-for-free-or-lose-benefits#ixzz1jGdXau1Z — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.130.14 ( talk) 01:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
The "Payment for unfree labour" section seems inconsistent with the definitions given in the preceding (introductory) section.
It appears to imply that, somehow, forced labour is not "unfree" if the payment is sufficient.
But the distinction between "free" and "unfree" turns on choice, not payment.
If a person is well-paid, yet forced to perform work on pain of physical punishment, and physically confined such that she is unable to leave or "quit", I don't see how the payment, whatever the amount, turns "unfree" into "free" labor. It is the restriction of choice that makes the labour unfree, regardless of payment.
Surely a slave paid USD 1000 daily - or USD 1M - is still a slave if he is forced to work against his will.
I think the "payment" section needs revision so as to avoid implying otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.180.174 ( talk) 05:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, according to this article in today's New York Times, more than two decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union (but with Islam Karimov's autocratic rule unchanged) Uzbeks must still provide "volunteer" labor, picking the cotton the government has a monopoly on (or, rather, in domestic terms, a monopsony since it's grown by private farmers). Stalinism lives! It even has a picture that so looks like the women in it are posing for a Soviet propaganda poster that I half expect to see "CЛABA TPУДУ!" in big red letters near the top.
Anyway, all amazement aside, something about this should be in the article, at least. And in Agriculture in Uzbekistan, perhaps, as well. Or maybe even a separate article? I doubt the Times is the only reliable source to have covered this. Daniel Case ( talk) 19:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Should compulsory education be considered unfree labour ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliketoeatbeansalot ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
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Conscript labor redirects here, but it might better redirect to civil mobilization. In any case the article seems to be a kind of smorgasboard of ideas under the banner of unfree labor, but unfree as is required, and unfree as in required and not compensated, are very different things. Being forced to work and being forced to work for no pay, in simpler terms, are different and categorically different as to make it the main distinction to make in this article. - Inowen ( talk) 07:42, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) JJP...MASTER! [talk to] JJP... master? 16:42, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Unfree labour →
Forced labour – Per
WP:COMMONNAME, since "forced labo[u]r" is orders of magnitude more common
[2] in published sources than "unfree labo[u]r", which appears to be an uncommon and rather recent academic neologism. (Per
MOS:ENGVAR, neither the "labor" nor "labour" spelling should be preferred; whatever was established in the first non-stub version of the article should be retained, absent a strong national tie, which of course will not exist for this topic.) —
SMcCandlish
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13:21, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Given that we've been slowly undoing the thrall of the Stanford Prison experiment as psychologically valuable, since it violated every aspect of scientific experiment, and also given that the students were paid and also had their grades held over their heads as extortion--I don't think it counts as an example of forced labor as the definition has it. If we think that the Stanford experiment counts as a flavor of slavery, that needs a citation. 47.222.125.80 ( talk) 05:22, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:Slavery which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 10:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)