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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Ondine's curse was copied or moved into Ondine (mythology) with this edit on 9 August 2005. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Taken from Ondine's curse
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotel ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Lawrence a Greek name? — Vivacissamamente 13:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I put in introductory information about the race of undines, but I don't think I smoothed out the flow from that to the fairy tale "Undine"; I'm not sure how to go about it. Goldfritha 02:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This page alternatively uses both "Ondine" and "Undine;" we should pick one and use it consistently. Also, there are no references given in the "Sleep" section, and I'm not sure it's appropriate as-written. Shiftychica ( talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not comfortable with the tone set under "Characteristics," which seems to be telling me where I can go out and meet a nymph. Thoughts? Shiftychica ( talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed an extensive passage (link here) which was mostly about the piano piece Gaspard de la nuit, which I did not believe was appropriate. Since my earlier deletion was reverted, I'd like to explain why I deleted the passage in the first place. There are various problems with the passage, and unless these problems are fixed, I seriously object to the inclusion of this passage in the article.
Please feel free to add this info to the article for Gaspard, once the appropriate corrections are made. However, the passage should not be here in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.102.50 ( talk) 04:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
So I tried to look up ondine in my dictionary and it wasn't there, but undine was. My impression is that ondine is an obsolescent variant, and that the current spelling is undine, from Neo-latin undina. I think the name of this article should be changed. Rwflammang ( talk) 17:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Ondine (mythology) →
Undine (alchemy) – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate.
Rwflammang (
talk)
12:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Undines are also shown in Perfect World (Chinese created game, also in the International version). There are monsters early on called "Undine of Virtue, etc" that are depicted as mermaids who float on land, with fins on their hands, possibly the head. Here's a link to PWI's wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.102.157 ( talk) 00:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello. Recently I gutted quite a lot of this article. Here's why: First, most of the information here was totally unsourced. Wikipedia doesn't operate on the authority of anonymous editors alone. Beyond that, statements like "The German folktale of Ondine, a water nymph who curses her unfaithful husband to cease breathing if he should ever fall asleep again, is the basis for 'Ondine's Curse'" are flatly wrong. In line with this statement, the removed material was a big tangle of confusion. The name Undine enters the record by way of the pen of Paracelsus. It is thereafter a concept specific to alchemy and/or alchemically-influenced works. The subject of water beings in folklore is another matter, and the concept of an undine and the folklore record must not be conflated if there is any hope for accuracy or concision for the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request with Undine going to Undine (disambiguation). Favonian ( talk) 15:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Undine (alchemy) → Undine – All items on the Undine disambiguation page refer to undines and are hence derivative of the supernatural creature, which is the primary source of the name. Also, "alchemy" is a really really odd/reductionistic bracketed qualifier. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 03:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Multiple editors mostly not discussing the article NE Ent 20:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So, recently Eric Corbett found this page and, unfortunately, hasn't left his old habits behind. As a result, they page, which had indeed accrued numerous terrible edits since last time I cleaned it up (i.e. demolished layers of misinformation from the general confusion around the figure, probably due to its usage as a gloss and modern roleplaying games), suffered from further deterioration under Corbett, who will aggressively edit war to add unreferenced sections and misinformation, such as that Undines are "minor female deities". We can certainly do better. I encourage other editors to keep an eye on this page and demand proper sources. In the mean time, this article isn't going anywhere before we disentangle Paracelsus from the Paracelsus-influenced material (which Corbett has so far resisted) and stop insisting that there was a "folk tradition" that did not exist. Unfortunately, I suspect Corbett will respond to this with his typical schoolyard insults and subsequently feign deep distress and falsely claim to be quitting Wikipedia if the slightest reprimand comes. Without other editors, nothing will really get done here, so please do help out. :bloodofox: ( talk) 05:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
@Bloodofox - the ideal would be a description under Paracelsus comprising paracelsus' description and then other attributes as they became appended. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 07:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Soooo first things first, we need a scholarly source discussing paracelsus I guess..... Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 07:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Folks, I hate to see people I respect treating each other like this. So I'm going to butt in here. @ Drmies: Probably because of the wringer I contributed to putting you through yesterday concerning another editor's problems, you botched the redaction of those comments at least once, so everybody's seen them and that's that. @ Eric Corbett: You know a lot about expanding articles and improving prose, but you are not well versed in Germanic folklore and mythology. You've clambered up a gum tree here, based on poor sources. Bloodofox knows this stuff - better than me, in this instance - and has a point: we do have an article on nymphs. (And presumably articles on nixies, the Lorelei, and swan maidens.) @ Bloodofox: Insulting Eric Corbett based on your take on his history here is not going to help you make your point, and he's evidently got more time to re-expand this article than you do, so ideally you'll work together on it (and Sagaciousphil too once she has better internet access again), because it does need re-expanding. What you should be doing is supplying the sources. You can't expect to just tell people to do the reading. The usual advice to experts applies: demonstrate it by explaining it, with references. To be frank, the article has a reasonable introduction now but is still a bit of a mess. What we have is a quasi-philosophical concept propounded by Paracelsus that developed a life of its own in the 19th century - not in popular culture (those are all products of high culture, part of the Romantic wave of high culture on new topics and with new themes born out of the cult of the sublime and the rediscovery of non-Classical story material), not arising from folklore (this is more analogous to Perrault's and Hans Christian Andersen's literary stories), and not arising from mythology (pace Chambers Dictionary of the Unexplained and the editor higher up the page who believes all mythology is Classical). It accrued features from figures such as those I named, because Romanticism was big on synthesis, but it's not a myth. The challenge the article faces is to state where that story occurs and what scholars say about its origins and relationship to Paracelsus; what Paracelsus actually says (and currently we refer to the same work first by its Latin title and then by a German translation ...), and how the concept of the undine varies between those 19th-century compositions that feature it. Those are more important, to my mind, than a description, because this is not a folk tradition that can be reconstructed or generalised about, it's story material that's been used by different writers and composers. It would also be nice if some scholar has written about what Paracelsus drew on, but I'm not sure either that "Alchemy" is the right disambiguator. I would suggest this article be moved to simply "Undine" and the DAB page be at "Undine (disambiguation)". Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
|
Worth adding - a famous piano piece from his Gaspard de la Nuit. Johnbod ( talk) 09:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
first did a novel called Undine, second wrote a poem called Undine, and Giraudoux's play about Undine is famous 92.41.64.113 ( talk) 19:26, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Undine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Ondine's curse was copied or moved into Ondine (mythology) with this edit on 9 August 2005. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Taken from Ondine's curse
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotel ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Lawrence a Greek name? — Vivacissamamente 13:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I put in introductory information about the race of undines, but I don't think I smoothed out the flow from that to the fairy tale "Undine"; I'm not sure how to go about it. Goldfritha 02:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This page alternatively uses both "Ondine" and "Undine;" we should pick one and use it consistently. Also, there are no references given in the "Sleep" section, and I'm not sure it's appropriate as-written. Shiftychica ( talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not comfortable with the tone set under "Characteristics," which seems to be telling me where I can go out and meet a nymph. Thoughts? Shiftychica ( talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed an extensive passage (link here) which was mostly about the piano piece Gaspard de la nuit, which I did not believe was appropriate. Since my earlier deletion was reverted, I'd like to explain why I deleted the passage in the first place. There are various problems with the passage, and unless these problems are fixed, I seriously object to the inclusion of this passage in the article.
Please feel free to add this info to the article for Gaspard, once the appropriate corrections are made. However, the passage should not be here in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.102.50 ( talk) 04:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
So I tried to look up ondine in my dictionary and it wasn't there, but undine was. My impression is that ondine is an obsolescent variant, and that the current spelling is undine, from Neo-latin undina. I think the name of this article should be changed. Rwflammang ( talk) 17:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Ondine (mythology) →
Undine (alchemy) – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate.
Rwflammang (
talk)
12:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Undines are also shown in Perfect World (Chinese created game, also in the International version). There are monsters early on called "Undine of Virtue, etc" that are depicted as mermaids who float on land, with fins on their hands, possibly the head. Here's a link to PWI's wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.102.157 ( talk) 00:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello. Recently I gutted quite a lot of this article. Here's why: First, most of the information here was totally unsourced. Wikipedia doesn't operate on the authority of anonymous editors alone. Beyond that, statements like "The German folktale of Ondine, a water nymph who curses her unfaithful husband to cease breathing if he should ever fall asleep again, is the basis for 'Ondine's Curse'" are flatly wrong. In line with this statement, the removed material was a big tangle of confusion. The name Undine enters the record by way of the pen of Paracelsus. It is thereafter a concept specific to alchemy and/or alchemically-influenced works. The subject of water beings in folklore is another matter, and the concept of an undine and the folklore record must not be conflated if there is any hope for accuracy or concision for the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request with Undine going to Undine (disambiguation). Favonian ( talk) 15:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Undine (alchemy) → Undine – All items on the Undine disambiguation page refer to undines and are hence derivative of the supernatural creature, which is the primary source of the name. Also, "alchemy" is a really really odd/reductionistic bracketed qualifier. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 03:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Multiple editors mostly not discussing the article NE Ent 20:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So, recently Eric Corbett found this page and, unfortunately, hasn't left his old habits behind. As a result, they page, which had indeed accrued numerous terrible edits since last time I cleaned it up (i.e. demolished layers of misinformation from the general confusion around the figure, probably due to its usage as a gloss and modern roleplaying games), suffered from further deterioration under Corbett, who will aggressively edit war to add unreferenced sections and misinformation, such as that Undines are "minor female deities". We can certainly do better. I encourage other editors to keep an eye on this page and demand proper sources. In the mean time, this article isn't going anywhere before we disentangle Paracelsus from the Paracelsus-influenced material (which Corbett has so far resisted) and stop insisting that there was a "folk tradition" that did not exist. Unfortunately, I suspect Corbett will respond to this with his typical schoolyard insults and subsequently feign deep distress and falsely claim to be quitting Wikipedia if the slightest reprimand comes. Without other editors, nothing will really get done here, so please do help out. :bloodofox: ( talk) 05:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
@Bloodofox - the ideal would be a description under Paracelsus comprising paracelsus' description and then other attributes as they became appended. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 07:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Soooo first things first, we need a scholarly source discussing paracelsus I guess..... Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 07:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Folks, I hate to see people I respect treating each other like this. So I'm going to butt in here. @ Drmies: Probably because of the wringer I contributed to putting you through yesterday concerning another editor's problems, you botched the redaction of those comments at least once, so everybody's seen them and that's that. @ Eric Corbett: You know a lot about expanding articles and improving prose, but you are not well versed in Germanic folklore and mythology. You've clambered up a gum tree here, based on poor sources. Bloodofox knows this stuff - better than me, in this instance - and has a point: we do have an article on nymphs. (And presumably articles on nixies, the Lorelei, and swan maidens.) @ Bloodofox: Insulting Eric Corbett based on your take on his history here is not going to help you make your point, and he's evidently got more time to re-expand this article than you do, so ideally you'll work together on it (and Sagaciousphil too once she has better internet access again), because it does need re-expanding. What you should be doing is supplying the sources. You can't expect to just tell people to do the reading. The usual advice to experts applies: demonstrate it by explaining it, with references. To be frank, the article has a reasonable introduction now but is still a bit of a mess. What we have is a quasi-philosophical concept propounded by Paracelsus that developed a life of its own in the 19th century - not in popular culture (those are all products of high culture, part of the Romantic wave of high culture on new topics and with new themes born out of the cult of the sublime and the rediscovery of non-Classical story material), not arising from folklore (this is more analogous to Perrault's and Hans Christian Andersen's literary stories), and not arising from mythology (pace Chambers Dictionary of the Unexplained and the editor higher up the page who believes all mythology is Classical). It accrued features from figures such as those I named, because Romanticism was big on synthesis, but it's not a myth. The challenge the article faces is to state where that story occurs and what scholars say about its origins and relationship to Paracelsus; what Paracelsus actually says (and currently we refer to the same work first by its Latin title and then by a German translation ...), and how the concept of the undine varies between those 19th-century compositions that feature it. Those are more important, to my mind, than a description, because this is not a folk tradition that can be reconstructed or generalised about, it's story material that's been used by different writers and composers. It would also be nice if some scholar has written about what Paracelsus drew on, but I'm not sure either that "Alchemy" is the right disambiguator. I would suggest this article be moved to simply "Undine" and the DAB page be at "Undine (disambiguation)". Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
|
Worth adding - a famous piano piece from his Gaspard de la Nuit. Johnbod ( talk) 09:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
first did a novel called Undine, second wrote a poem called Undine, and Giraudoux's play about Undine is famous 92.41.64.113 ( talk) 19:26, 4 December 2022 (UTC)