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There are a number of reasons why Catholic soldiers left the UDR. Yesterday I expanded and re-worded the "Loss of Catholic soldiers" section as it focused far too much on one of the reasons: IRA intimidation and pressure from the Catholic community. It hardly explained why the Catholic community became hostile to the British Army, it hardly touched on the fact that a great number resigned in protest at the actions of the British Army, and it didn't even mention that Catholic members reported being intimidated by Protestant fellow soldiers. I included all of this information to make the section more balanced and less POV. I supported everything with reliable sources, some of which were already being used in this section. Here is the before and after. However, User:SonofSetanta (who wrote the section in the first place) has reverted my edit completely, claiming that it "introduced POV". Can you please explain how POV was introduced? ~Asarlaí 13:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Asarlai. Thanks for your edit. I have reverted you because I didn't feel it added anything of note to the information already there. This is the sort of thing I mean:
Ryder pp45-46 doesn't support this so I have substituted it with this: Some Catholic soldiers felt uneasy at having to report for duty in former B Special drill huts and experienced subtle intimidation from their comrades
The section already clearly identifies the problem in softer terms, which is as per the manual of style ( WP:MOS). Your comment, taken again from Ryder p46, is certainly true but in my opinion it's beyond what is needed. For a start it isn't about anything the UDR did and that's already covered in the statement Various events outside the control of the regiment such as: There are loads more factors which any of us could edit in but they won't make the message any stronger. Well, maybe they would, but this article isn't the one to emphasise such matters. With Internment, Bloody Sunday and the Falls Road Curfew already there I think a reader would certainly get the message by using the inline refs.
You have to bear in mind Asarlai that this article is an overview. It's already too long and I'm turning over ideas in my head on how to cut down on what's already there, maybe by creating a separate article for the "Women's UDR". If we edit in every single piece of info we have then the article will just become more overweight. I'm not trying to express WP:OWN but I am trying to preserve the article in near enough its present form for the good article review. The tasks set out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Ulster Defence Regiment have been done and really the only thing I believe we should be doing on this article now is tweaking, which I recognise you have tried to do. I hope you're happy with how I've compromised? SonofSetanta ( talk) 14:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
What you need is a source that details it. If it's not sourced you shouldn't mention it especially if it is controversial which in regards to this article almost everything can be. Mabuska (talk) 10:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
This weird creepy revisionist lunatic is part of the problem " The regimental history (Potter) is the best source we have for facts " no it's the best source for english lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:2163:2300:91A:37F0:EA30:7396 ( talk) 13:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 01:57, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be in an unusual situation, as its nominator is topic banned from working further on the topic. [1]
On first pass, the article has a lot of good information, but also seems to have some ways to go to meet the GA criteria. Some issues I immediately see:
"This is not noted in Adams' Sinn Féin biography[205] and the BBC still insists the assailants were arrested by "plain clothes policemen".[206]" It would be better to note the diverging viewpoints here impartially.
Given the nominator's situation and some clear issues with the article, I'm not passing it for GA at this time. I hope others may find the above comments useful as a starting point for future revision, however; this would be a great one to get to GA status. Thanks to all who have worked to bring it to this point. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:57, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted 2nd para from:
"Recruiting in Northern Ireland at a time of intercommunal strife, many of its (mostly Ulster Protestant) members were involved in sectarianism and others in collusion with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations."
to
"Recruiting in Northern Ireland at a time of intercommunal strife, a small number of its members were involved in sectarianism and collusion with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations."
as I am not happy with the word 'many'. Out of 40k to 50k members who served, the use of the word 'many' implies a considerable number. I feel that 'a small number' is more correct. --
I concur with Gavin Lisburn and Flexdream. The use of many here is unsourced and problematic given the sensitive nature of the article. If it can't be verifiably and academically sourced then we should use a more neutral and less loaded wording. We don't work with personal experiences on Wikipedia. That falls unders opinion and pov. Mabuska (talk) 17:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I see. The article also uses the word 'many' to describe the number of Catholics in the UUP. While I have no problem with using the word in this way, I now know that the three of you do, so why haven't any of you changed it? Given the sensitive nature of the article etc., I feel we ought to be more consistent. Gob Lofa ( talk) 13:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
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At
Ulster Defence Regiment#USC recruitment it says Others joined the newly formed RUC Reserve instead, especially in Belfast, where during the first month of recruiting, only 36 Specials applied to join the UDR compared to an average of 29% – 2,424, one thousand of whom were rejected, mainly on the grounds of age and fitness
I assume it's attempting to say the percentage of B Specials who applied to join the UDR was lower in Belfast than in other parts of Northern Ireland, except it's not saying it particularly well. It doesn't even match the mini-table on the right hand side next to it, which says 70 B Specials had applied and 36 had been accepted. FDW777 ( talk) 12:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- The 5,351 total is incorrect and should be 4,776. Needs changed in the recruitment summary paragraph too. Gavin Lisburn ( talk) 16:12, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
He is sgt h Connor number 22968464 I’m trying to find more information on him but can’t find anything all I know is he was awarded the campaign service medal 2A02:C7E:331E:8700:88FA:C145:50CD:BC5 ( talk) 23:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ulster Defence Regiment article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Ulster Defence Regiment was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
There are a number of reasons why Catholic soldiers left the UDR. Yesterday I expanded and re-worded the "Loss of Catholic soldiers" section as it focused far too much on one of the reasons: IRA intimidation and pressure from the Catholic community. It hardly explained why the Catholic community became hostile to the British Army, it hardly touched on the fact that a great number resigned in protest at the actions of the British Army, and it didn't even mention that Catholic members reported being intimidated by Protestant fellow soldiers. I included all of this information to make the section more balanced and less POV. I supported everything with reliable sources, some of which were already being used in this section. Here is the before and after. However, User:SonofSetanta (who wrote the section in the first place) has reverted my edit completely, claiming that it "introduced POV". Can you please explain how POV was introduced? ~Asarlaí 13:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Asarlai. Thanks for your edit. I have reverted you because I didn't feel it added anything of note to the information already there. This is the sort of thing I mean:
Ryder pp45-46 doesn't support this so I have substituted it with this: Some Catholic soldiers felt uneasy at having to report for duty in former B Special drill huts and experienced subtle intimidation from their comrades
The section already clearly identifies the problem in softer terms, which is as per the manual of style ( WP:MOS). Your comment, taken again from Ryder p46, is certainly true but in my opinion it's beyond what is needed. For a start it isn't about anything the UDR did and that's already covered in the statement Various events outside the control of the regiment such as: There are loads more factors which any of us could edit in but they won't make the message any stronger. Well, maybe they would, but this article isn't the one to emphasise such matters. With Internment, Bloody Sunday and the Falls Road Curfew already there I think a reader would certainly get the message by using the inline refs.
You have to bear in mind Asarlai that this article is an overview. It's already too long and I'm turning over ideas in my head on how to cut down on what's already there, maybe by creating a separate article for the "Women's UDR". If we edit in every single piece of info we have then the article will just become more overweight. I'm not trying to express WP:OWN but I am trying to preserve the article in near enough its present form for the good article review. The tasks set out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Ulster Defence Regiment have been done and really the only thing I believe we should be doing on this article now is tweaking, which I recognise you have tried to do. I hope you're happy with how I've compromised? SonofSetanta ( talk) 14:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
What you need is a source that details it. If it's not sourced you shouldn't mention it especially if it is controversial which in regards to this article almost everything can be. Mabuska (talk) 10:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
This weird creepy revisionist lunatic is part of the problem " The regimental history (Potter) is the best source we have for facts " no it's the best source for english lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:2163:2300:91A:37F0:EA30:7396 ( talk) 13:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 01:57, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be in an unusual situation, as its nominator is topic banned from working further on the topic. [1]
On first pass, the article has a lot of good information, but also seems to have some ways to go to meet the GA criteria. Some issues I immediately see:
"This is not noted in Adams' Sinn Féin biography[205] and the BBC still insists the assailants were arrested by "plain clothes policemen".[206]" It would be better to note the diverging viewpoints here impartially.
Given the nominator's situation and some clear issues with the article, I'm not passing it for GA at this time. I hope others may find the above comments useful as a starting point for future revision, however; this would be a great one to get to GA status. Thanks to all who have worked to bring it to this point. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:57, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted 2nd para from:
"Recruiting in Northern Ireland at a time of intercommunal strife, many of its (mostly Ulster Protestant) members were involved in sectarianism and others in collusion with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations."
to
"Recruiting in Northern Ireland at a time of intercommunal strife, a small number of its members were involved in sectarianism and collusion with Ulster loyalist paramilitary organisations."
as I am not happy with the word 'many'. Out of 40k to 50k members who served, the use of the word 'many' implies a considerable number. I feel that 'a small number' is more correct. --
I concur with Gavin Lisburn and Flexdream. The use of many here is unsourced and problematic given the sensitive nature of the article. If it can't be verifiably and academically sourced then we should use a more neutral and less loaded wording. We don't work with personal experiences on Wikipedia. That falls unders opinion and pov. Mabuska (talk) 17:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I see. The article also uses the word 'many' to describe the number of Catholics in the UUP. While I have no problem with using the word in this way, I now know that the three of you do, so why haven't any of you changed it? Given the sensitive nature of the article etc., I feel we ought to be more consistent. Gob Lofa ( talk) 13:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Ulster Defence Regiment. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:17, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
At
Ulster Defence Regiment#USC recruitment it says Others joined the newly formed RUC Reserve instead, especially in Belfast, where during the first month of recruiting, only 36 Specials applied to join the UDR compared to an average of 29% – 2,424, one thousand of whom were rejected, mainly on the grounds of age and fitness
I assume it's attempting to say the percentage of B Specials who applied to join the UDR was lower in Belfast than in other parts of Northern Ireland, except it's not saying it particularly well. It doesn't even match the mini-table on the right hand side next to it, which says 70 B Specials had applied and 36 had been accepted. FDW777 ( talk) 12:53, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
- The 5,351 total is incorrect and should be 4,776. Needs changed in the recruitment summary paragraph too. Gavin Lisburn ( talk) 16:12, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
He is sgt h Connor number 22968464 I’m trying to find more information on him but can’t find anything all I know is he was awarded the campaign service medal 2A02:C7E:331E:8700:88FA:C145:50CD:BC5 ( talk) 23:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)