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A bonus source: (reliable?) Just to add, there are genealogical dates on this website that attempts to track Heureaux's family back generations that could be helpful. Descendants of Doyen Heureaux Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The history of Haiti is of no relevance. Your "educating" the reader is redundant. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:52, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Virgrod, if you choose to continue to revert and add this original work and assumptions you are making, while six of my sources confirm "Haitian" father, I will not hestitate to see to it that you are blocked from editing. You are entitled to disagree but there are no sources to back your claim with this person. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The only line that has some way of being included is has been described as a Haitian[1][2][3] who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844, however it is verified by ONE source. The other two that you have behind it DO NOT support this. Do not use the references I have provided for your appeasement. Nothing verifies this source. But it can be noted that he chose to be Dominican after the declaration of 1844 (you do realize before this time it was Haitian country anyway 1822-1844, but no do not include that). Still, you need more than one source to verify this. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 05:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, this article is about the son not the father. Meanwhile his father's father is more questionable, whether if he was from New Orleans or France. Again, you make no quarrels there. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 05:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Osplace, I am more concerned with this article as this is the route to the discussion. Can we agree to remove original work? Savvyjack23 ( talk) 18:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an assumption and not a logical one. >>>>"So, D'Assas father MUST have migrated before death (meaning he must have migrated before the state of Haiti was created..." Furthermore, D'assas was a mulatto, so who even says he had to move because of the massacre? Mind you this massacre isn't a massacre; its called a war of independence, like any other country in the western hemisphere. I made a note earlier in the discussion that not all the French were killed, the useful ones were allowed to stay and help administer the country. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 01:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
None of these sources even hesitate to give his nationality' there are a lot of dead people who don't have a known birth date or specific location of birth within a country. So now you are essentially saying Haitian (as mentioned in the text) can be used to refer to people of Saint-Domingue when you were arguing for the opposite before? So according to you, nobody is Haitian. They all explicitly state Haitian. Who's a Haitian? Somebody from Haiti. Below are three book sources, never-mind .com's etc...
(1) "D'Assas Heureaux, haitiano, con quien tuvo un hijo natural el 21 de octubre de 1845." Rough translation: D'Assas Heureaux, Haitian, who had a natural son on the 21st of October, 1845 . Ulises Heureaux: biografía de un dictador (pg 9) Sang, Mu-Kien Adriana
(2) "Ulises Heureaux, un dictador de origen haitiano..." Rough translation: Ulises Heureaux, a dictator of Haitian origin. Peña Gómez en la sociedad haitiana, 2002 (pg 40) Manati'
(3) (Ulises) Born in Puerto Plata of a Haitian father... Haitian-Dominican Counterpoint (pg 129) Matibag, Eugenio
Now, please locate a source that challenges. If not, you have no grounds to infer your logic against sources. Its not even a question. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 03:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Response: (1a) 3 book sources call DH Haitian to your 0 sources. (1b) One source says identified as Haitian (This is a confirmation itself!) Okay so he chose to be Dominican; that doesn't mean he isn't of Haitian descent (2) The fact that these sources say Haitian which means he is from Haiti. Birth country is confirmed while DOB is not. You can challenge his age, not his country of birth as we have sources saying he has origins from Haiti. (4) Alexandre Petion's father was French too, I do not see your point. They are both mulattoes. (4b) Not all the French were killed, (see: 06:30) [1] as I stated before. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 03:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Au contraire Virgrod, see D'Assas Heureaux about your WP:OR. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
No, the consensus is for what you had edited or the edit I made that you reverted which was in accordance exactly with the sources I had. Thank you. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Osplace do you disagree with my edit that was reverted?
"Heureaux, affectionately known as Lilís, was born in Puerto Plata. He is the son of D'assas Heureaux, a Haitian [2] [3], (whose father Pierre Alejandro Heureaux, was a Frenchman [4] [5] and his mother an African-born slave) and Josefa Leibert from St. Thomas, whom were both mulattos but with dark skin. Due to his cultural background, he was able to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently." [6]
The only thing I would change is "Due to his cultural background, he was able," (I inferred here) to "He was raised to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently." Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
(1b) Can you verify this source the way it is worded? Like I have with mine multiple times? In other words, all my sources to your one is not helping the verification. No? (2) So do not mention where he is born. This is not his article, it is his SON'S. Simply inserting Haitian is suffice. (3) Why do you need an explanation? The text says he is HAITIAN. (4) Is NOT RELEVANT; see (3). If the text wanted to be specific it would have said born in the French colony. Enough. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The dates listed for his presidency terms 1. don't match 2. some are missing 3. other sources quote different dates Flurry 21:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article 64.131.205.111 07:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The article Los Bolos has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
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11:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The person in question is about D'assas Heureaux, Ulises' father. The current edited version by User:Virgrod is being challenged as WP:OR. Not only is the article not about his father, the section indulges into information about this person's bio that cannot be sourced. Should it stay or should the previous version be restored for the reasons above? (The same problem is happening to a similar page on the Joaquín Balaguer article. (See: Talk:Joaquín_Balaguer#Allegation_of_Haitian_heritage), to whom was related to Ulises Heureaux. See also, the current feedback on the No original research/Noticeboard Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 31#D'Assas Heureaux To all concerning parties, thank you for your time. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 01:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
AlbinoFerret, thank you for your input. I've added inline maintenance tags. I hope to have this resolved godspeed. Thank you. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre(else he would have lost his life). The conclusion that the father must have left before the massacre because he didn't die is false. Maybe he managed to hide under a pile of bodies, maybe he was out in the fields that day, maybe he was visiting a friend - any one of those actions (and there are probably many more he could have taken) would have caused him to live through the massacre. Therefore, we editors cannot infer that he was not present at the time of the massacre just because he lived, and to do so is WP:SYNTH. In order to state that he had left before the massacre, we must have a reliable source. Ca2james ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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References:
A bonus source: (reliable?) Just to add, there are genealogical dates on this website that attempts to track Heureaux's family back generations that could be helpful. Descendants of Doyen Heureaux Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The history of Haiti is of no relevance. Your "educating" the reader is redundant. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:52, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Virgrod, if you choose to continue to revert and add this original work and assumptions you are making, while six of my sources confirm "Haitian" father, I will not hestitate to see to it that you are blocked from editing. You are entitled to disagree but there are no sources to back your claim with this person. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The only line that has some way of being included is has been described as a Haitian[1][2][3] who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844, however it is verified by ONE source. The other two that you have behind it DO NOT support this. Do not use the references I have provided for your appeasement. Nothing verifies this source. But it can be noted that he chose to be Dominican after the declaration of 1844 (you do realize before this time it was Haitian country anyway 1822-1844, but no do not include that). Still, you need more than one source to verify this. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 05:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, this article is about the son not the father. Meanwhile his father's father is more questionable, whether if he was from New Orleans or France. Again, you make no quarrels there. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 05:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Osplace, I am more concerned with this article as this is the route to the discussion. Can we agree to remove original work? Savvyjack23 ( talk) 18:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an assumption and not a logical one. >>>>"So, D'Assas father MUST have migrated before death (meaning he must have migrated before the state of Haiti was created..." Furthermore, D'assas was a mulatto, so who even says he had to move because of the massacre? Mind you this massacre isn't a massacre; its called a war of independence, like any other country in the western hemisphere. I made a note earlier in the discussion that not all the French were killed, the useful ones were allowed to stay and help administer the country. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 01:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
None of these sources even hesitate to give his nationality' there are a lot of dead people who don't have a known birth date or specific location of birth within a country. So now you are essentially saying Haitian (as mentioned in the text) can be used to refer to people of Saint-Domingue when you were arguing for the opposite before? So according to you, nobody is Haitian. They all explicitly state Haitian. Who's a Haitian? Somebody from Haiti. Below are three book sources, never-mind .com's etc...
(1) "D'Assas Heureaux, haitiano, con quien tuvo un hijo natural el 21 de octubre de 1845." Rough translation: D'Assas Heureaux, Haitian, who had a natural son on the 21st of October, 1845 . Ulises Heureaux: biografía de un dictador (pg 9) Sang, Mu-Kien Adriana
(2) "Ulises Heureaux, un dictador de origen haitiano..." Rough translation: Ulises Heureaux, a dictator of Haitian origin. Peña Gómez en la sociedad haitiana, 2002 (pg 40) Manati'
(3) (Ulises) Born in Puerto Plata of a Haitian father... Haitian-Dominican Counterpoint (pg 129) Matibag, Eugenio
Now, please locate a source that challenges. If not, you have no grounds to infer your logic against sources. Its not even a question. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 03:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Response: (1a) 3 book sources call DH Haitian to your 0 sources. (1b) One source says identified as Haitian (This is a confirmation itself!) Okay so he chose to be Dominican; that doesn't mean he isn't of Haitian descent (2) The fact that these sources say Haitian which means he is from Haiti. Birth country is confirmed while DOB is not. You can challenge his age, not his country of birth as we have sources saying he has origins from Haiti. (4) Alexandre Petion's father was French too, I do not see your point. They are both mulattoes. (4b) Not all the French were killed, (see: 06:30) [1] as I stated before. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 03:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Au contraire Virgrod, see D'Assas Heureaux about your WP:OR. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 04:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
No, the consensus is for what you had edited or the edit I made that you reverted which was in accordance exactly with the sources I had. Thank you. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Osplace do you disagree with my edit that was reverted?
"Heureaux, affectionately known as Lilís, was born in Puerto Plata. He is the son of D'assas Heureaux, a Haitian [2] [3], (whose father Pierre Alejandro Heureaux, was a Frenchman [4] [5] and his mother an African-born slave) and Josefa Leibert from St. Thomas, whom were both mulattos but with dark skin. Due to his cultural background, he was able to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently." [6]
The only thing I would change is "Due to his cultural background, he was able," (I inferred here) to "He was raised to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently." Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
(1b) Can you verify this source the way it is worded? Like I have with mine multiple times? In other words, all my sources to your one is not helping the verification. No? (2) So do not mention where he is born. This is not his article, it is his SON'S. Simply inserting Haitian is suffice. (3) Why do you need an explanation? The text says he is HAITIAN. (4) Is NOT RELEVANT; see (3). If the text wanted to be specific it would have said born in the French colony. Enough. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The dates listed for his presidency terms 1. don't match 2. some are missing 3. other sources quote different dates Flurry 21:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article 64.131.205.111 07:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The article Los Bolos has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
notice, but please explain why in your
edit summary or on
the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}}
will stop the
proposed deletion process, but other
deletion processes exist. The
speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and
articles for deletion allows discussion to reach
consensus for deletion.
JeepdaySock (AKA,
Jeepday)
11:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The person in question is about D'assas Heureaux, Ulises' father. The current edited version by User:Virgrod is being challenged as WP:OR. Not only is the article not about his father, the section indulges into information about this person's bio that cannot be sourced. Should it stay or should the previous version be restored for the reasons above? (The same problem is happening to a similar page on the Joaquín Balaguer article. (See: Talk:Joaquín_Balaguer#Allegation_of_Haitian_heritage), to whom was related to Ulises Heureaux. See also, the current feedback on the No original research/Noticeboard Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 31#D'Assas Heureaux To all concerning parties, thank you for your time. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 01:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
AlbinoFerret, thank you for your input. I've added inline maintenance tags. I hope to have this resolved godspeed. Thank you. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 00:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre(else he would have lost his life). The conclusion that the father must have left before the massacre because he didn't die is false. Maybe he managed to hide under a pile of bodies, maybe he was out in the fields that day, maybe he was visiting a friend - any one of those actions (and there are probably many more he could have taken) would have caused him to live through the massacre. Therefore, we editors cannot infer that he was not present at the time of the massacre just because he lived, and to do so is WP:SYNTH. In order to state that he had left before the massacre, we must have a reliable source. Ca2james ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:27, 1 April 2023 (UTC)