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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The article says that Ukrainians "are an East Slavic ethnic group". The people in the collage are supposed to be members of this ethnic group. Karina Smirnoff is described in her own article as being of Greek and Russian descent, i.e. not an ethnic Ukrainian. In Archive 4, TaivoLinguist said that "When a person is born in Ukraine, speaks Ukrainian (all Ukrainians also speak Russian), and claims to be Ukrainian in the world's media, that person is Ukrainian." I certainly do not agree with this. It would only make sense if the person describes themselves as ethnic Ukrainian or at least says that they identify as ethnic Ukrainian, regardless of what their actual ancestry may be (though this last point is highly questionable, in my opinion). Otherwise, one couldn't identify as a citizen of Ukraine without also being labeled as an ethnic Ukrainian, and that's absurd. Milla Jovovich did not say that she is an ethnic Ukrainian, as far as I'm aware, so why is she being presented as one? It's actually kind of insulting to Ukrainians - what, you can't think of someone who is actually ethnically Ukrainian to put in there? Also, not all Ukrainians speak Russian, Taivo. Most do, most people in Ukraine do, but not all (certainly not at a fully fluent level).
I would also note Lyudmila Pavlichenko's father was an ethnic Russian Chekist from St. Petersburg (Pavlichenko was the name of her first husband, her maiden name was Belova). I don't know about her mother, but I do know that she herself referred to herself as a "Russian soldier" (русский солдат) in "the world's media" during the war, see this video (at about 28 seconds in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjBsuCI_3no
So why is a person of Russian ancestry, who referred to herself as a Russian soldier, being presented as an ethnic Ukrainian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 ( talk) 23:53, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, IP, your assumption that Jovovich has taken Russia's side in the current conflict is utterly laughable. You clearly haven't read Jovovich's comments in support of Ukraine ("my people", referring to Ukrainians, not Russians, is a common refrain) since the beginning of the conflict. [13], [14] And while Jovovich isn't volunteering at Ukrainian hospitals (it would be difficult since she lives in the US), she has, indeed, helped to raise money for the victims of violence in Kyiv. You might also note that her mother actually grew up in Dnipropetrovsk. -- Taivo ( talk) 05:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir the Great was not of Slavic ancestry and in the age in which he lived there were only Eastern Slavs, no Ukrainians, no Belarusians, no Russians and no Ruthenians.-- Rochus Hügler ( talk) 12:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Both are famous for being on the same TV show, Dancing with the Stars (U.S. TV series). The former is half-Russian, half-Greek from Kharkiv and doesn't seem to feature her Ukrainian ancestry much. The latter is Ukrainian-Jewish from Odessa and has featured his Ukrainian heritage on the show. Having both of them on the table would be excessive, but Maksym would be a much better fit. Faustian ( talk) 14:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun ( talk) 07:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir the Great was a Swede, Khmelnytsky was a Ruthenian, Yulia Tymoshenko and the Klitschko Brothers are partly of Jewish descent and Smirnoff is of Russian and Greek descent.-- Arensnuphis Huitzilopochtli Argi ( talk) 16:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)::Ruthenian was an old word for Ukrainians and Belarussians, being of partial Jewish descent does not make one not an ethnic Ukrainian. Agree about Yaroslav, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus for such a change. Achieve consensus on the talk page before removing stuff, please. Faustian ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
After a Wikipedia-wide consensus was reached at [15] to remove photo galleries in infoboxes and replace them with photos of typical members of the ethnic group, I have replaced the photo gallery with a photo of typical modern Ukrainians in contemporary Ukrainian dress clothing. This is a Wikipedia-wide consensus so it applies here and at all articles concerned with ethnicities and nationalities. The point is to eliminate the eternal and time-consuming edit wars and discussions trying to hone the minutiae of who is, is not, and might be a famous Ukrainian. It was affecting articles throughout Wikipedia and the new consensus will help to alleviate the problem. This is simply a nice photo I had from my time living there and I'm not married to it if anyone has a better one. The photo should show typical Ukrainians. -- Taivo ( talk) 11:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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http://web.archive.org/web/20051125025057/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051112171542/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051104020412/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/543/49862/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125043717/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051106071949/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051201052452/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051105214750/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20080227100652/http://www.coletta.de/kolonien/Die%20Voelker%20Europas%201914%20xxl.jpg
http://web.archive.org/web/20080303112904/http://cla.calpoly.edu:80/~mriedlsp/History315/Maps/map2.html
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It won't do, as happened a few times now, that users add their own opinions to sourced text, if the material added is not in the sources given or in contradiction to what is in the sources given. No matter what you personally may think about the matter at hand. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 17:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
If you're interested, participate and write your comment here: RfC: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups? -- Zyma ( talk) 06:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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"Population of those whose mother tongue is Ukrainian in Ukraine (2001)" What does it mean? I'm confused. -- TheDFPL ( talk) 17:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Discussed already Talk:Ukrainization#Magyarization, why not appropriate here.( KIENGIR ( talk) 19:23, 29 March 2019 (UTC))
I've just removed a minor figure in the infobox in the Russians article for Venezuela (being estimated at 4,600). Please check the Reliable sources noticeboard over the years regarding the Joshua Project. Common consensus has been that they are an interest group who are not a reliable source for census type statistics and demographics. There is no transparency of process for any of their information, and it they are not used for other ethnic group (and diasporic) articles. If they are, the figures have been snuck in or undiscussed in long standing, fairly much abandoned articles.
If no other contributors voice their objection in the next couple of weeks, I will go WP:BOLD and remove the single instance usage in this article. I note, also, that there was protest over using their estimate way back when in the archived talked here. I can't see what happened to change this. Yes, consensus can change, but not without discussion... Iryna Harpy ( talk) 06:57, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Ukrainians. Krakkos ( talk) 11:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi, let's summarize and formalize criteria for adding languages into "Languages" section of "ethnic group" template of this article. What are these criteria? Manyareasexpert ( talk) 08:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Changes made. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
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This page suggests a unity between the nationality and ethnicity of Ukrainians, and this is nonsense. What about the Tatars? Can we not consider ethnic Hungarians or Russians to be Ukrainian if they are committed to living in Ukraine? http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/ also mentions Belarussians, Moldavians, Poles, Jews, Armenians, Gypsies and others, and says "the representatives of more than 130 nationalities and ethnic groups live on the territory of the country." The idea that they are not Ukrainians is dangerous. Gwaka Lumpa ( talk) 09:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Is there a rational explanation for this, or are we dealing with a certain state-sponsored vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:AB0:9800:E1C0:453D:E3A4:8C87 ( talk) 15:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Definitely vandalism. Any articles related to Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Donbass, Crimea or the ongoing war should be locked as soon as possible. Else we'll have a vandalism competition from both sides. 88.4.56.70 ( talk) 15:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
As I said before, I'd suggest articles related to the ongoing war be protected. Vandalism will happen for such a hot issue and, while ones like these are obvious, some others may be more subtle or come from people with good intentions but a massively biased perspective. Not to mention the troll wars that we see are already happening. 88.4.56.70 ( talk) 15:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
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The lead contains a sentence (not really followed up in the body of the text), saying: "Archaeological evidence suggests that the Ukrainian people and their ancestors have lived in area of Ukraine since the 5th millennium BC" with four citations to articles in science/archaeological magazines on the Trypillia megasites. However, none of these sources provide evidence to support the claim that the habitants of those sites were the ancestors of the Ukrainians. Chapman et al. say "We are not, of course, suggesting that Trypillia megasites were in any way reflected the development of Ukrainian nationalism." The other sources are (probably judiciously, given that we're talking about 6200 years ago) completely silent on the issue. Furius ( talk) 18:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The article says that Ukrainians "are an East Slavic ethnic group". The people in the collage are supposed to be members of this ethnic group. Karina Smirnoff is described in her own article as being of Greek and Russian descent, i.e. not an ethnic Ukrainian. In Archive 4, TaivoLinguist said that "When a person is born in Ukraine, speaks Ukrainian (all Ukrainians also speak Russian), and claims to be Ukrainian in the world's media, that person is Ukrainian." I certainly do not agree with this. It would only make sense if the person describes themselves as ethnic Ukrainian or at least says that they identify as ethnic Ukrainian, regardless of what their actual ancestry may be (though this last point is highly questionable, in my opinion). Otherwise, one couldn't identify as a citizen of Ukraine without also being labeled as an ethnic Ukrainian, and that's absurd. Milla Jovovich did not say that she is an ethnic Ukrainian, as far as I'm aware, so why is she being presented as one? It's actually kind of insulting to Ukrainians - what, you can't think of someone who is actually ethnically Ukrainian to put in there? Also, not all Ukrainians speak Russian, Taivo. Most do, most people in Ukraine do, but not all (certainly not at a fully fluent level).
I would also note Lyudmila Pavlichenko's father was an ethnic Russian Chekist from St. Petersburg (Pavlichenko was the name of her first husband, her maiden name was Belova). I don't know about her mother, but I do know that she herself referred to herself as a "Russian soldier" (русский солдат) in "the world's media" during the war, see this video (at about 28 seconds in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjBsuCI_3no
So why is a person of Russian ancestry, who referred to herself as a Russian soldier, being presented as an ethnic Ukrainian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.172.98.164 ( talk) 23:53, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, IP, your assumption that Jovovich has taken Russia's side in the current conflict is utterly laughable. You clearly haven't read Jovovich's comments in support of Ukraine ("my people", referring to Ukrainians, not Russians, is a common refrain) since the beginning of the conflict. [13], [14] And while Jovovich isn't volunteering at Ukrainian hospitals (it would be difficult since she lives in the US), she has, indeed, helped to raise money for the victims of violence in Kyiv. You might also note that her mother actually grew up in Dnipropetrovsk. -- Taivo ( talk) 05:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir the Great was not of Slavic ancestry and in the age in which he lived there were only Eastern Slavs, no Ukrainians, no Belarusians, no Russians and no Ruthenians.-- Rochus Hügler ( talk) 12:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Both are famous for being on the same TV show, Dancing with the Stars (U.S. TV series). The former is half-Russian, half-Greek from Kharkiv and doesn't seem to feature her Ukrainian ancestry much. The latter is Ukrainian-Jewish from Odessa and has featured his Ukrainian heritage on the show. Having both of them on the table would be excessive, but Maksym would be a much better fit. Faustian ( talk) 14:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun ( talk) 07:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir the Great was a Swede, Khmelnytsky was a Ruthenian, Yulia Tymoshenko and the Klitschko Brothers are partly of Jewish descent and Smirnoff is of Russian and Greek descent.-- Arensnuphis Huitzilopochtli Argi ( talk) 16:06, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)::Ruthenian was an old word for Ukrainians and Belarussians, being of partial Jewish descent does not make one not an ethnic Ukrainian. Agree about Yaroslav, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus for such a change. Achieve consensus on the talk page before removing stuff, please. Faustian ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
After a Wikipedia-wide consensus was reached at [15] to remove photo galleries in infoboxes and replace them with photos of typical members of the ethnic group, I have replaced the photo gallery with a photo of typical modern Ukrainians in contemporary Ukrainian dress clothing. This is a Wikipedia-wide consensus so it applies here and at all articles concerned with ethnicities and nationalities. The point is to eliminate the eternal and time-consuming edit wars and discussions trying to hone the minutiae of who is, is not, and might be a famous Ukrainian. It was affecting articles throughout Wikipedia and the new consensus will help to alleviate the problem. This is simply a nice photo I had from my time living there and I'm not married to it if anyone has a better one. The photo should show typical Ukrainians. -- Taivo ( talk) 11:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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http://web.archive.org/web/20051125025057/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051112171542/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/555/50610/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051104020412/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/543/49862/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125043717/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051106071949/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/328/29376/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051201052452/http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com:80/nn/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20051105214750/http://www.zn.kiev.ua:80/ie/show/378/33582/
http://web.archive.org/web/20080227100652/http://www.coletta.de/kolonien/Die%20Voelker%20Europas%201914%20xxl.jpg
http://web.archive.org/web/20080303112904/http://cla.calpoly.edu:80/~mriedlsp/History315/Maps/map2.html
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It won't do, as happened a few times now, that users add their own opinions to sourced text, if the material added is not in the sources given or in contradiction to what is in the sources given. No matter what you personally may think about the matter at hand. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 17:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
If you're interested, participate and write your comment here: RfC: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups? -- Zyma ( talk) 06:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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"Population of those whose mother tongue is Ukrainian in Ukraine (2001)" What does it mean? I'm confused. -- TheDFPL ( talk) 17:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
Discussed already Talk:Ukrainization#Magyarization, why not appropriate here.( KIENGIR ( talk) 19:23, 29 March 2019 (UTC))
I've just removed a minor figure in the infobox in the Russians article for Venezuela (being estimated at 4,600). Please check the Reliable sources noticeboard over the years regarding the Joshua Project. Common consensus has been that they are an interest group who are not a reliable source for census type statistics and demographics. There is no transparency of process for any of their information, and it they are not used for other ethnic group (and diasporic) articles. If they are, the figures have been snuck in or undiscussed in long standing, fairly much abandoned articles.
If no other contributors voice their objection in the next couple of weeks, I will go WP:BOLD and remove the single instance usage in this article. I note, also, that there was protest over using their estimate way back when in the archived talked here. I can't see what happened to change this. Yes, consensus can change, but not without discussion... Iryna Harpy ( talk) 06:57, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Ukrainians. Krakkos ( talk) 11:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi, let's summarize and formalize criteria for adding languages into "Languages" section of "ethnic group" template of this article. What are these criteria? Manyareasexpert ( talk) 08:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Changes made. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:15, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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This page suggests a unity between the nationality and ethnicity of Ukrainians, and this is nonsense. What about the Tatars? Can we not consider ethnic Hungarians or Russians to be Ukrainian if they are committed to living in Ukraine? http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/ also mentions Belarussians, Moldavians, Poles, Jews, Armenians, Gypsies and others, and says "the representatives of more than 130 nationalities and ethnic groups live on the territory of the country." The idea that they are not Ukrainians is dangerous. Gwaka Lumpa ( talk) 09:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Is there a rational explanation for this, or are we dealing with a certain state-sponsored vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:AB0:9800:E1C0:453D:E3A4:8C87 ( talk) 15:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Definitely vandalism. Any articles related to Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Donbass, Crimea or the ongoing war should be locked as soon as possible. Else we'll have a vandalism competition from both sides. 88.4.56.70 ( talk) 15:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
As I said before, I'd suggest articles related to the ongoing war be protected. Vandalism will happen for such a hot issue and, while ones like these are obvious, some others may be more subtle or come from people with good intentions but a massively biased perspective. Not to mention the troll wars that we see are already happening. 88.4.56.70 ( talk) 15:50, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
This
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-- 65.92.246.142 ( talk) 06:47, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei ( talk) 00:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
The lead contains a sentence (not really followed up in the body of the text), saying: "Archaeological evidence suggests that the Ukrainian people and their ancestors have lived in area of Ukraine since the 5th millennium BC" with four citations to articles in science/archaeological magazines on the Trypillia megasites. However, none of these sources provide evidence to support the claim that the habitants of those sites were the ancestors of the Ukrainians. Chapman et al. say "We are not, of course, suggesting that Trypillia megasites were in any way reflected the development of Ukrainian nationalism." The other sources are (probably judiciously, given that we're talking about 6200 years ago) completely silent on the issue. Furius ( talk) 18:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)