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Ukraine was home to very many Jews, some of whom emigrated to Brazil. I've removed those people from the list of prominant Ukrainians because although they or their ancestors were from lands that are Ukraine they were not Ukrainians. Many of their ancestors were from cities (such as Odessa) where few people were actually Ukrainian and where very few even spoke Ukrainian. These people better belong in the article on Brazilian Jews. Otherwise even Sigmund Freud will become a prominant Ukrainian (his ancestors were from a shtetl in what is now Ukraine) Faustian ( talk) 21:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are you claiming a people who has been living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand year is not Ukrainian? Only because of their faith?
This sounds Nazi to me. Ukrainian-Jews have been living there for centuries. This make them Ukrainians; maybe more Ukrainians than many "ethinic Ukrainians". Opinoso ( talk) 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, Jews born in Ukraine are considered Ukrainians. We don't care if 100 years ago they were not. Opinoso ( talk) 21:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, everybody see Jews born in Ukraine as Ukrainians. Ask people's opinition before excluding Jews from Ukrainian list only because of their religion and origin. Opinoso ( talk) 00:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Stop trying to revive a 200 years ago segregationist concept. Opinoso ( talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If those Jews did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, we don't care. Probably many Christian Ukrainians living in the border with Poland or Russia did not see themselves as Ukrainians at that time as well.
Those Brazilians do have ancestors who were born, raised and lived in nowadays Ukraine for centuries. We don't care if these ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Buddshist, whatever.
The fact is that they have ancestors living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand years, not matter their religion or what was writen in their passport.
I will not accept that 200 years ago racist views have space in Wikipedia. Jews were not accepted as Ukrainians only because of their religion. If a Jew wanted to hide his ancestry and came up saying he was Christian at that time, he would probably become a Ukrainian to the view of the society.
This is ridiculous.
Stop racism. Opinoso ( talk) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The issue of contention has to do with whether or not Jews from what was then Russia but now Ukraine should be categorized as Brazilian-Ukrainians. I state that they should not for reasons best summarized in a comment provided by ananonymous editor on the Clarice Lispector talk page [2]:
Essentially, people who were neither Ukrainian citizens, nor ethnic Ukrainians, nor Ukrainian-speaking should not be considered Ukrainians simply because the territory they left would decades later become the state of Ukraine.
I would note that there are very many non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, and there is nothing controversial about not categorizing them as Ukrainians. So there is a well-established precedent of not doing so. Here a just a few of many examples (I could literally give a list of hundreds if I had more time):
All of the people above are non-Ukrainians, despite all being from Ukraine. None of their wikipedia pages classifies then as Ukrainian. And if someone would try to do so to a well-known person such as Bulgakov, they would be quickly and correctly reverted. Why should the Brazilian Jews who emigrated from parts of the Russian Empire that are now Ukraine be any different from the Jews, Russians, Poles or Germans from Ukraine in the above list? Faustian ( talk) 15:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, but you have an old conseption. Opinoso ( talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
However, her parents were not from Russia or Poland. They were from Ukraine. Probably her grandparents and her family have been living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years.
The people you posted were only born in Ukraine, to non-Ukrainians parents and most did not spend their lives in Ukraine. I am sure that Jew, born in Ukraine, to Ukrainian parents and lived in Ukraine would be called "Ukrainian".
The people you posted are not examples. They did not work in Ukraine. Their did notority in other countries. Opinoso ( talk) 18:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You cannot assumed a person was Ukrainian or not because of his or her religion. How can you assume Clarice Lispector was totally Jewish? Maybe her grandmother was a Christian Ukrainian. Does this make her more or less Ukrainian?
Me and other users do not agree with or view: Christians born in Ukraine are Ukrainians, Jews born in Ukraine are not. How many of these Christians felt Ukrainians. How many spoke Ukrainian? I don't know, but maybe a lot of them had Russian parents and spoke Russian at home. How can you know it?
You are assuming a person is Ukrainian because of their faith. I already gave you this example:
If a Jew wanted to hide his Jewish ancestry, came out saying he was a Christian to the society; then he would be "Ukrainian" to your standarts, because you would never know if he was "ethnic" Ukrainian or not.
Assume Clarice Lispector may have some "ethnic" Ukrainian ancestry (she probably does, because Jews have been in Europe for 1 thousand years and, surrely, all European Jews have some degree of "European" ancestry).
All European Jews have some degree of European ancestry because it is impossible to be in a region for 1 thousand years and not mix with the locals.
This make Ukrainian-Jews also Ukrainians, regardless of their passport, religion or ethnicity. Opinoso ( talk) 18:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
We are in the 21st century. Nowadays, we see a person with ancestors born in Ukraine as Ukrainian. If Jews did not consider themselves and Ukrainians 200 years ago, it is because there was a strong racism in Europe; Christians tried as much as possible to marginalise the Jewish community, to the point that they had to create a "separete" identity for over 1 thousand years.
This is ridiculous. We are in the 21st century and this is no longer acceptable. Nowadays, a Jew born and raised in Ukraine will see himself as Ukraine because, as far as I know, this separete feeling does not exist anymore. The same way American Jews see themselves as Americans. We don't care if 200 years ago they did not see themselves as Americans.
I don't need to know about the History of the Jews in Eastern Europe to notice that you have a 200 years ago conseption.
According to your conseption, only people with Slavic blood could be considered Ukrainian; even though they Spoke Russian or Polish at home and hated Ukraine. Assuming that all European Jews have some degree of European admixture, and that all Ukrainian Jews had some degree of Slavic blood, according to your conseption of Slavic blood=Ukrainian, this make Jews from Ukraine, Ukrainians as well, because they do have different degrees of Slavic admixture.
I just can't believe that, in the 21st century, a person still tries to separete people from each other only because of the ethnicity or religion.
But, as I said, Jews from Ukraine do have Slavic blood, so they are Ukrainians as well, you like it or not. Speaking Ukrainian or not, Christians or not, they are Ukrainians by blood, not only by birth. Opinoso ( talk) 19:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
According to you, the United States had a non-American president. Opinoso ( talk) 19:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
Many Chinese Americans do not feel American, but Chinese. Some of them only speak Chinese and are treated as Chinese because of their physical apparence. So what? They were born in America, raised in America and are American citizens.
We don't care if a Chinese American does not feel American or is not treated as American. We don't care if he makes part of a Chinese "nation".
He was born in America, so he is an American, regardless of his Chinese roots, what language he speaks or what the society considers him to.
He is an American. The same way Brazilian Jews with roots in Ukraine MUST stay in an article about Ukrainian-Brazilians.
This is the reality. If you do not agree, I am sorry. If Clarice Lispector is not Ukrainian, George Washington is not American. Opinoso ( talk) 23:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
So, let's change this article's name to "Russians in Brazil". Because nobody had Ukrainian nationality at that time. All people born in nowadays Ukraine had were Russian citizens, including all Jews and Christians.
Let's change this article's name.
There's no such a thing as "Jewish country". The Jews were a nation, not a country.
The only Jewish country in the world is Israel, created 40 years ago.
So, if Jews born in Ukraine are not Ukrainians because they were no Ukrainian citizens, so nobody born in Ukraine until the I World War was Ukrainian, they were part of Russia.
So there was no Ukrainian immigration to Brazil, but Russian immigration.
So you are assuming that George Washington became American when he woke up and had a paper saying he was an America citizen? When he was born he was not an American, but one day, at age 30 he became an American?
Why are you saying only Slavic Ukrainians can be Ukrainians? Why Jews can't.
You say Jews can't be Ukrainians because:
Reality: Many Chinese Americans do not feel Ukrainians and are not treated as Americans, but are American citizens.
Reality: Nobody at that time were Ukrainian citizens, since Ukraine was under Russian rule. Everybody was Russian citizens, including Christians.
So, you have no arguments to say Jews were not Ukrainians. Nobody in Ukraine were Ukrainians citizens until World War I.
And the fact that Jews were not treated as Ukrainians is totally irrelevant.
You arguements are weak and pathetic. Opinoso ( talk) 01:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
If you have a 200 years old view, this is you own business. But, we are not obligated to accept you segregationist opinion.
There's no such a thing as "Ukrainian" ethnic group.
"Ethnic groups and races do not exist. Race and ethnic groups are state designations to easier control the human populations (Michel Foucault)".
There's no such a thing as "I belong to this ethnic group, and I am different from the rest". Jews were treated differently because of the prejudice against Jews in Europa. That's all. They were not biologically different from the Slavs, because all humans are genetically similar.
So, your argument that Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they are not "Slavs" is pathetic and old.
Their ethnicity will not say if they are Ukrainians or not. Neither what was writen in the passport. They have been in Ukraine for over 1 thousand years. They are as Ukrainian as their "Slav" neighbors. Opinoso ( talk) 01:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The same way "race" does not exist, but we keeping using this term, ethinic group does not exist as well.
Does God exist? Existing or not, He has an article in wikipedia. The same way ethnic groups do have.
You have weak arguments.
Since there is no genetic differences between humans, you cannot say Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they do not have "Slavic" blood. Odd conseption.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they did not view themselves as Ukrainians, because many Chinese Americans do not see themselves as Americans and are Americans as well.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they were not Ukrainians citizens, because at that time everody born in that region was Russian citizen.
So, you have NO arguments to explain why only Slavs can be Ukrainians and Jews can't.
The same way you cannot explain why only Native Indians can be Americans or Brazilians. You also cannot explain why White South-Africans cannot be South-africans.
Grow. Opinoso ( talk) 01:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
This is YOU 200 years ago opinion. 21st century opinion is the opposite. Since race or ethnic groups do not exist, everyone born in nowadays Ukraine were Ukrainians, regardless of their skin color, religion or other irrelevant informations.
I live in the 21st, new conseptions, humans are all the same. I am far away from you ridiculous 200 year ago view.
If you come with a resouce saying: "Ukrainians are only people with Slavic ancestry. Those with Jewish ancestry are not Ukrainians", I will not accept it, because all Jews in Ukraine have some degree of Slavic admixture, the same way many "Slavic" Ukrainians must have some degree of Jewish admixture.
GROW. Opinoso ( talk) 02:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that you read Foucault. He will teach you that ethnic groups, race and culture are creations of a small group of persons to separate human beings.
Human beings split into small groups are manipulated with ease.
Therefore, your concept to say that Ukrainians are only those who followed a Ukrainian culture (which would be a Ukrainian culture?) and are descendants of Slavs (which would be the Slavs?) is decadent.
The Jews were marginalized in Europe by interests of the Church. There are no ethnic groups. There are no "human comunities". You cannot measure a person's identity by race or religion. You cannot say a Jew is less Ukrainian than a Slavic because of his religion or ethnicity.
This is total racism.
There's no "Ukrainian culture", much less ethnic Ukrainian. Only people little studied can believe in these arbitrary divisions of human beings.
Read Michel Foucault before writing your pathetic point of view here. Opinoso ( talk) 02:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the article is about the ethnic Ukrainians in Brazil anyways, would it make sense to just say so in the beginning, and redirect readers interested in Jews from Ukraine to the Brazilian Jews article? It could read something like This article is about the ethnic Ukrainian immigrants to Brazil. For information about Jews from UKraine who settled in Brazil please see the History of the Jews in Brazil article. Jews fleeing pogroms are mentioned there already. Faustian ( talk) 22:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If Clarice Lispector, born in Ukraine to Ukrainian parents cannot be Ukrainian because she had Jewish roots, did not speak Ukrainian or did not feel Ukrainian, George Washington was the first non-American president of America, because he had Britsh roots, did not speak a North-American language and probably felt more "Virginian" than "American".
Stop trying to separate Christians from Jews. This is pathetic. Opinoso ( talk) 23:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Lispector is Ukrainian. Her parents were born in Ukraine and were Russian citizens. The same way Slavic Ukrainians were Russian citizens. Opinoso ( talk) 01:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainians are a mixture of peoples. There is nothing homogeneous in Ukraine or in any other country in Europe.
Europeans are a mixture of peoples. Ethnic groups do not exist.
Jews and Slavs are genetically identical. All humans are.
So the concept that only "Slavs" are Ukrainians is ridiculous. Jews are also Ukrainians, and lived there for a thousand years.
Clarice is a human born in current Ukrainian territory. That makes her Ukrainian, regardless of her skin color or which religion she followed.
Grow, we are in the 21 st century. Opinoso ( talk) 01:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Human genetic difference is really, really small, like 0.0001%. So, Jews and Slavs are the same.
What a shame you still believe in human races. You are living in a 200 year ago period. Opinoso ( talk) 01:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
All humans are descended from a small group of people who came from African and have spread around the world. All humans have the same ancestry.
So, if you are claiming Jews are not Ukrainians because of their religion and roots, you are living in the 1700s. Opinoso ( talk) 02:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You cannot measure how Ukrainian a person was basing in his "ethnic group".
GROW. Opinoso ( talk) 02:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You believe Ukrainian is an ethnic group. You believe all Ukrainians share the same traditions. You believe it because you have a 200 years ago conseption.
You should read more. Do not believe in everything you hear. Have a little more of critical sense. Opinoso ( talk) 02:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
According to Faustian, only Christians with "Slav" roots can be Ukrainians. Jews living in nowadays Ukraine for 1 thousand years are not Ukrainians.
Faustian argues that Jews are not Ukrainians because they do not have "Ukrainian culture" and did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
However, according to the famous and renowned French philosopher
Michel Foucault, there are NO ethnic groups, races, human communities.
According to the philosopher, these divisions are made by the State. He argues that the state controls human beings divided into small groups more easily that all human together.
Then, according to the famous Foucault, there are NO ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian culture. They are only human inventions, human imagination to separate people into small groups.
Because there are no divided cultures, much less ethnic groups, it cannot be argued that only the people of Ukrainian culture, or Slavic descent are Ukrainians.
We are divided: on one side the user Faustian says that there is "ethnic Ukrainians" and only these can be Ukrainians.
In addition, the renowned French philosopher Michael Foucault says that there are no ethnic groups or communities; this is part of the human imagination, manipulated by the state.
On who should we believe? Believe in user Faustian or in the famous French philosopher Foucault?
I believe in Foucault.
And more: according to genetic researches, there are no human races: all people are descendants of a small group of people from Africa. Jews and Slavs, then, have the same ancestry.
Thus, based on the ideas of Foucault and in genetic researches, we CAN say with certainty that Jews born in Ukraine are Ukrainians.
Saying that only the Slavs have the right to be Ukrainians is an old racist idea.
Thus, the Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian origin MUST have their names listed in this article.
I ask Faustian, to stop creating an edit war. You use common sense to argue. Common sense, in most cases, is wrong. Genetically humans are the same, so there's no such a thing as only people of "Slavic" ethnicity can be Ukrainians. It is all part of human imagination, according to Foucault.
So stop the edit war and stop using common sense as an argument. Opinoso ( talk) 02:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You are using your own opinion.
I am not using my own opinion. I am using Foucault's arguements.
You started edit war in this articles. You erased the names of Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian descent. I am only including their names back.
It seems you have NO serious arguements against Foucault's. You are writing your opinion for who is a Ukrainian or who is not. You cannot use personal opinion in Wikipedia.
Then, stop discussion and stop edit war. Opinoso ( talk) 03:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
"Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, Ukrayintsi) are an East Slavic ethnic group primarily living in Ukraine, or more broadly—citizens of Ukraine (who may or may not be ethnic Ukrainians)."
I use the precendent of many wikipedia articles written about non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, such as:
I also use the definition of nation in the English language [8]:
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
So to be a Ukrainian according to the English language means one must meet one of the above criteria. The Jewish emigrants from the Russian empire you try to portray as Ukrainians meet none of them: they did not perceive themselves as unified with the Ukrainians (they spoke a different language, generally did not intermarry because they lived in their own communities, etc.); they did not belong to the same ethnicity.
So, in summary, you use the controversial opinions of a French philospher (wjo also claims that ethnicity does not exist), I use common usage, the defintion of the word in the language, and the precedent of many wikipedia articles. Faustian ( talk) 03:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I use the arguments of scholars. You use you own opinion.
Stop erasing the names of people in the article before asking other user's opinion and without giving any source or serious arguments for doing that.
Erasing informations and creating edit wars are vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 03:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You gave your own opinion about who is an Ukrainian and who is not. This is wrong, because Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinions.
You are trying to excluding Jews from being Ukrainians and did not give us serious arguments to do this.
You are assuming only people with Christian faith and Slavic ancestry are able to be Ukrainians. You did not give us arguments to affirm this.
All you do is giving your own opinion. You already addmited to be using "common usage".
Where do you think you are? In a forum where people leave their personal opinions?
NO, this is an encyclopedia. This is not the place to use "common usage".
If you don't see people living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years as "Ukrainians" only because they are Jews, than you really have an odd conseption, and it makes me sad, because we are in the 21st century, and these conseptions of "blood" and heritage remindes me Nazi.
I don't believe in your personal opinion. I believe in Foucault. He was not an authority in Ukrainians and Jews, the same way you are not.
But Foucault was a scholar, a famous scholar, who wrote renowned works on the human mind. In contrast to you, who never wrote anything.
So, stop creating edit wars, because none of your arguments are valid. You are addmite to be using "common usage". Nobody can take you seriously.
This is an encyclopedia. It is not a forum for opinions.
Careful, your vandalism here can generate a lock of your account on Wikipedia. Opinoso ( talk) 03:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, you are sending your personal opinion when trying to denigrate the work of Foucault.
Rather than give your useless opinion, bring sources saying why Jews born in Ukraine cannot be treated as Ukrainians.
If you do not bring the sources and continues with this edit war, I will ask aministradores to block you from wikipedia.
Foucault was a psychologist who knew the human mind. He understood that concepta as race, ethnicity and communities are made to manipulate the minds of people.
I don't care if you agree with him. It is a source to conffirm that Jews can be Ukrainians as well.
What about your sources? I can't see any. Oh, you use "common usage". Very intelligent person you are. While I use master Foucault as arguments, you use common usage.
This is hilarious. Opinoso ( talk) 04:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
NO, you didn't ask anynone their opinions. You are trying to obligate us to accept you segregationist conception.
I am Brazilian. In Brazil, Clarice Lispector is treated as a Brazilian of Ukrainian and Jewish roots. You like it ot not, Lispector was proud of her Ukrainian roots.
You know nothing about Brazil and is trying to exclude Jews from the list of Ukrainian Brazilians.
By the way, I NEVER put a name in the list. I don't care about Ukrainians, it was another user who included those Brazilian Jews in the list.
YOU erased the names included by another user giving YOUR personal opinion, or "common usage" as you said, as arguments.
You never came with a source saying "Clarice Lispector and her ancestors never considered themselves to be Ukrainians".
YOU are assuming from your mind they did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
You are assuming they didn't. You are giving you opinion.
In Brazil, my country, Lispector and the other Jews as famous journalist Bóris Casoy are known as Brazilians with both Ukrainian and Jewish ancestry, you like it or not.
So, stop erasing their names. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption and how Brazilians see themselves, not as people from Ukraine see themselves.
This article has nothing to do with racist and segregationist conseptions in Europe or in other places of the world. It has the Brazilian conseption.
You know NOTHING about Brazil and how Brazilians see themselves, and MUST be quiet and stop this stupid edit war. Opinoso ( talk) 04:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In Brazil, Jews of Ukrainian descent are descendants of Ukrainians. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil and their descendants. So, we are using the Brazilian conseption of that who is a Ukrainian. We don't care about "common usage" in other countries. This article is Brazilian, not Ukrainian. Opinoso ( talk) 04:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
How about if, for each person you want to place in the list of Brazilian-Ukrainians, a source is provided stating that this person is "Ukrainian." There will be no arguments there. But being from Odessa does not equal being Ukrainian. That would be an intepretation and wikipedia policy is clear about no original research.
So, let's not argue about how to define Ukrainian or not. Find a source claiming that a person is a Ukrainian person and then if you find such a source, put that person's name into the article as a Ukrainian person. There is a good reason why wikipedia policy forbids original research and this argument is an excellent illustration of that. I promise that if you find a source stating that a person is a Ukrainian person (not "from Ukraine" but a Ukrainian), I will not remove that person from the list. Faustian ( talk) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In Brazil, if you have ancestors who came from Ukraine, then you are descendant of Ukrainians, regardless of you race, religion or other useless informations.
Lispector was born in Ukraine, then she was naturalized Brazilian. This makes her a Brazilian descendant of Ukrainians of Jewish faith.
This is the Brazilian conseption, and this is the one we are using here.
All those Brazilian Jews in the list have ancestors who came from Ukraine, which make them automatically "descendants of Ukrainians" of Brazil, regardless of their religious ancestry.
So, you cannot erase their names, since it is an article about Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption. Opinoso ( talk) 04:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, I am not wasting my time with a person who uses "common usage" in an encyclopedia. But I will be around, so, do not try to put your segregationist ideas again. I am with my eyes opened.
Bye. Opinoso ( talk) 04:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Per the discussion above, I have hidden the names of those alleged Ukrainian Brazilians until such a time when sources are actually found that describe these people as "Ukrainians". The names have not been removed yet, and can be unhidden easily. If no source is found within 3 weeks I will remove the names from the list. I appreciate other editors' cooperation in following wikipedia policy: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." Thank you. Faustian ( talk) 14:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
When these "Ukrainians" came to Brazil, they were Russian citizens NO Ukrainians were listed at all.
In the "Memorial do Imigrante" website, everybody from Eastern Europe under Russian rule was listed as "Russian". There are not Ukrainians there. [10]
Since there was no Ukraine at that time, but only Russia, I will change this article's name to "Russians of Brazil" and include the name of Clarice Lispector, who was a Russian citizen as the other future-Ukrainians who came to Brazil.
If no source is found within 1 week saying these people were Ukrainians, not Russians, I will change the name of the article from "Ukrainians" to "Russians". Opinoso ( talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Ff Ukraine was under Russian rule, they were Russian citizens, the same way you argue Lispector was.
I give you 1 week to bring me sources to say Ukrainians who came to Brazil were not Russian citizens. If you do not have any, I will have to change the article's name to "Russians of Brazil", since they were not Ukrainians, but Russians. Opinoso ( talk) 20:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Changing the name would be a violation of WP:POINT and would be considered pretty disruptive. I suggest this action not be taken. This argument is actually quite silly. If these people are Ukrainians, then there should be sources that say they are. How hard can it be to find a few? I will even check myself. If not, then they should not be included. Ostap 04:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Article says there are 300,000 Ukrainian-Brazilians. How many of these were Ukrainians according to you, Faustian?
Probably many of these so-called 300,000 people are of Jewish origin, like Lispector.
According to you, a Jew cannot be Ukrainian. Why? Because they do not believe in Jesus Christ and do not have blond hair like Christian Ukrainians?
Because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture? Does this exist? What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian?? Wear typical clothes in a local party?
Stop this.
Hum, this is strange...really strange. Opinoso ( talk) 06:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Opinoso, the same way I disagree with removing jews from the article, I disagree with changing the article name to Russians instead of Ukrainians. Simply put, in Brazil there is a large Ukrainian community -- not Russian. Perhaps you're just trying to make a point? -- Pinnecco ( talk) 14:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It is obvious Faustian is trying to erase Lispector's name from this article because she was a JEW. The fact that she was a Russian citizen is irrelevant, because most people in Ukraine had Russian passports.
His other arguments is that Jews did not follow a "Ukrainian culture". I wonder if this exist. What makes a person follow a "Ukrainian culture"? Wear typical clothes? Dance some folk Ukrainian dance?
This is pathetic.
To Faustian, only people who believe in Jesus Christ or have blond hair can be Ukrainian. Jews cannot. Opinoso ( talk) 19:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
If your parents did not tell you your ancestors came from Ukraine, you would hardly know where Ukraine is located in a world map.
Ethnic groups do not exist. This is a human fantasy. Read Foucault, I already told you to this so.
Who cares if lispector did not see herself as Ukrainians? Do you have a poll saying how many people born in Ukraine in the early 20th century felt Ukrainians?
I give you 1 week to bring me a source saying only Jews did not feel Ukrainians.
By the way, you still did not answer me:
You said Lipector is not Ukrainian because she did not "follow a Ukrainian culture". What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian at home?
Is it wear typical clothes in a local party?
What is a Ukrainian culture?
I give you 1 week to report us why only people with a "Ukrainian culture" (?) can be Ukrainians.
You did not bring us sources to excluse Jews from the Ukrainian-Brazilian articles. So, stop erasing their names, because I brought sources to say they are Ukrainians.
21st view: ancestors from Ukraine= Ukrainian-descendant.
19th century Nazi view: only people with blond hair and who believe in Jesus are Ukrainians.
I prefer the 21st century view. Only you prefer the 19th century. You loose.
By the way, I am not accusing you of being a Nazi. You are assuming I am. However, your views are exactly the same as Nazi:
Only blond Catholic or Protestant Germans are Germans. Jews were not.
Why? Because they did not dance in a local party with typical Germanic clothes, getting drunk with beer in a Oktoberfest?
What is a German culture? What is a Ukrainian culture, so different from a Jewish? Aren't humans the same?
Faustian, wake up. This is 21st century, not 18th. Opinoso ( talk) 01:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
For people unfamiliar with ethnic identity issues but who have stumbled upon this conversation, here is some sourced infromation:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [11] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica classifies Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [12] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians."
So, not everyone from Ukraine was a Ukrainian and should be categorized as such in this article. Faustian ( talk) 23:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
How many of those Russian citizens from nowadays Ukraine felt Ukrainians? Very few of them.
The country did not even exist.
How many of them spoke Ukrainian? Probably many didn't.
Stop saying only people with "Ukrainian" culture are Ukrainians. A unify Ukrainian culture does not exist. People from different regions have different life styles.
What is a Ukrainian culture? Wearing typical clothes in a Easter party?
Stop watching Hollywood movies, please. Opinoso ( talk) 05:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
A person born in Ukraine is Ukrainian by everybody 21st century view. If you still live in the 18th century, it is your own problem.
So, stop erasing their names, this is vandalism.
Born in Ukraine=Ukrainian. Bring me sources saying "only people who believe in Jesus and have blond hair are Ukrainians. Jews are not".
You won't find this racist source. So, just give up and stop erasing informations with sources. This is vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Opinoso ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Stop using silly examples. Where are your sources to claim Jews from Ukraine are not Ukrainians?
If you don't have the sources, stop reverting. Stop vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 03:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, sources stating that Jews are a different wthnic group than Ukrainians:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [13] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica cites the census as classifying Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [14] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians." Faustian ( talk) 03:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I would also add that whoever listed people on this article as Ukrainian must be the ones to provide the sources to show that they were. Better todo that instead of engage in edit warring. Faustian ( talk) 04:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Interestingly, in the article about White Brazilians, Opinoso believes that Portuguese Jews were not Portuguese, but "actually Jews". Here he believes the opposite: that Jews born in Ukrain are Ukrainian. Why? Ninguém ( talk) 02:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
According to Faustian, onlly those who speak Ukrainian, feel Ukrainian and follow a "Ukrainian culture" (?) are Ukrainians. Jews living in Ukraine for over 1,000 years cannot.
So, there are NO "Ukrainians of Brazil", because most of them cannot speak Ukrainian, do not feel Ukrainian and do not follow a Ukrainian culture.
Even those elderly generations who speak Ukrainian are largely influenced by "Brazilian culture". So, they loose their Ukrainian identity and culture as well.
So, should we exclude these so-called "Ukrainian Brazilians" from the article???
According to Faustian, YES. Because most Ukrainian-Brazilians do not speak Ukrainian, are only Brazilian citizens and do not care about Ukraine.
Do they have Ukrainian blood? Yes, but it does not matter. Blood is nothing. Ukraine was populated only 4,000 years ago. 100,000 years ago ALL humans were living in Africa.
Humans have ancestors from all around the world. So, a Brazilian having Ukrainian ancestors 3 generations back, probably have Italians, Mecedonians, Jews, Africans ancestors 17 generations back.
So, have or not Ukrainian blood does not make a person Ukrainian-Brazilian, according to you, Lispector was not Ukrainian because she had no "Ukrainian culture".
So, how many Ukrainian Brazilian exist? Probably only those who came from Ukraine recently, who speak Ukrainian and feel Ukrainian. 90% only speak Portuguese, don't care about Ukraine. They are only BRAZILIANS, according to Faustian.
If Jews living in Ukraine, like Lispector, for 1,000 years are not Ukrainians because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture and were not Ukrainian citizens, these people in Brazil are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because most do not follow a Ukrainian culture, are not Ukrainian citizens and do not feel Ukrainians as well.
Let's change this article's name to "Brazilians of Brazil". Opinoso ( talk) 04:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I am Brazilian and I do not know ANY Brazilian who can speak Ukrainian. Even in those Ukrainian communities of Paraná, only people older than 60 years-old can speak Ukrainian. The rest are monolingual in Portuguese.
Anyway, speaking Ukrainian DOES NOT make a person Ukrainian in culture. I can learn Japanese, but I will never be a Japanese in culture.
These "Ukrainian of Brazil" are no long Ukrainian in culture. By the way, what is it to be Ukrainian in culture? Wear typical clothes once a year in a local party?
Please, stop watching Hollywood movies.
These Ukrainians of Brazil are only Brazilians. This article must be erased. Opinoso ( talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
They are no longer Ukrainians in culture. So, they are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because according to you, only those who follow a Ukrainian culture (?) are Ukrainians.
Those in Brazil, if not totally, are largely influenced by non-Ukrainian culture.
They are only Brazilians. Opinoso ( talk) 04:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Most, probably all, also speak Portuguese. Younger generations probably only speak Portuguese. Most have contact with other Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food, watch Brazilian television.
Nobody in Ukraine have contact with Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food or watch Brazilian television.
Only these 4 segments make these Ukrainian-speaking people from Southern Brazil no longer Ukrainian in culture. Opinoso ( talk) 05:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Only a crazy person would imagine these Ukrainian-Brazilians live in isolated areas, watching Ukrainian television and only speaking Ukrainian.
All immigrants were integrated into Brazil's society. Some took only 1 generation, like the Portuguese and Italians, others took 3 or 4, like Germans and Japanese. Ukrainians are no exception.
Even those who speak Ukrainian are more Brazilians than Ukrainians. They watch Brazilian soap-operas like other Brazilians, they use orkut as most Brazilians, they wear Brazilian clothes. They live in a tropical country, with other views of life, other traditions.
They are no longer Ukrainians, not in culture. Some of them must be still influenced by the Ukrainian culture, being able to speak Ukrainian or to cook a Ukrainian dish.
But this is the case of older generations, the same way Japanese and Germans in Brazil. Young generations do not feel Ukrainian. I am not saying they don't care about Ukraine. But they do not love it.
My grandmother is the daughter of Italian immigrants and she knows nothing about Italy. The same goes for most so-called "Ukrainian-Brazilians". Opinoso ( talk) 05:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
You already attacked an user saying he could not talk about Eastern Europe because he was not "ethnic Ukrainian" as you are.
I will use the same argument: you cannot talk about Brazil, because you are not "ethinic Brazilian", as I am.
So, you talk about your 200 years ago Ukrainian conseptions. I talk about my 21st Brazilian conseptions.
In Brazil, Clarice and other Jews from Ukraine ARE Ukrainians. This article is about Brazil, so we use Brazilian conseptions, not odd conseptions from segregationist Ukraine.
In Brazil: ancestors from Ukraine = Ukrainian-descendant.
In Ukraine = we don't care. Opinoso ( talk) 05:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I have changed all references to "Ukrainians in Brazil" to "Brazilians of Ukrainian descent". The very person who states that "there are no Ukrainians in Brazil" reversed my edit, and called it vandalism. Funny that. Ninguém ( talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, the people refered to in this article are certainly not "Ukrainians in Brazil". They are, on the contrary, Brazilians of Ukrainian descent. Ninguém ( talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
This is from the website of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. I hope nobody accuses it of being a Nazi website or having 200 year old values: [16]
Jewish Identity
Jewish identity in the post-Soviet states is much more likely to be expressed as a sense of Jewish heritage than as adherence to Judaism as a religion. For Jews in these countries, the Jewish religion is hardly a factor in Jewishness. Russian and Ukrainian Jews consider belief in God, observance of the Sabbath, the dietary laws (kashrut), and circumcision as quite irrelevant to being a ‘good Jew.' What makes a good Jew is knowledge of history and culture and, especially, feeling pride in one's Jewishness and a duty to remember the Shoah or Holocaust.
Further, those Jews who identified most strongly as Jews were among the first to leave Ukraine when emigration became possible in the post-Khrushchev period. Jewish adults who remain in Ukraine are unlikely to be agents of Jewish socialization within their own families as decades of Soviet restrictions against Jewish education and practice have left them ignorant of Jewish tradition. Intermarriage also weakens the family as a transmitter of Jewish heritage.
So let's not rob Jewish people of their Jewish self-identification. Faustian ( talk) 13:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a factual note. That "only about 4-10% could actually speak Ukrainian" is a huge understatement. At least those who lived in Soviet Ukraine or live in modern Ukraine can speak Ukrainian in much higher numbers. It is more correct to say that for the Jews in Ukraine the UA language is usually not the mother tongue. That would be true. But Jews know Ukrainian and can speak it very well. -- Irpen 01:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Boris Casoy was born in São Paulo, not Ukraine at all. Opinoso ( talk) 16:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
What would be interesting would be a section on the Ukrainian contribution to Brazilian culture. Bandurist ( talk) 13:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Article from a Ukrainian newspaper: [17]. Faustian ( talk) 05:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
From the forward of a Ukrainian-Brazilian book:
« - По волі й по неволі мусимо шукати на чужині своєї України... Там, де нас закинула химерна доля... Бо Україна там, де ми зі своєю любов’ю до Неї, зі своїми думками про Неї, зі своїми зусиллями задля Неї...Бо Україна розселятиметься по всьому світу, куди ми нестимемо її ідею, де ми роститимемо її красу, з ким би не зв’язала нас для життя, для праці, для радощів і турбот, наша доля».
"Freely or not freely we must find in a foreign land our own Ukraine...There, where chimeric fate has thrown us... Because Ukraine is there, where there are we with our love for Her, with our thoughts about Her, with all our will towards Her...Because Ukraine is scattered across the whole world, where we carry its idea, where we nurture its beauty, with whom all our lives are tied, our work, our joys and sorrows, and our fate." Faustian ( talk) 04:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed Boris Casoy because I saw an interview where he reported to be the son of Russian Jews. Most sources also claim this. Opinoso ( talk) 03:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Article says: "As of 1994, 1.000.000 Ukrainians lived in Brazil, 80% (or approximately 350,000) of whom lived in a compact region ..." 80% of 1M is 800.000, not 350.000. Which number is correct? OlexiyO ( talk) 11:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is part of a series of articles about the Ukrainian diaspora, defined on that article as "The Ukrainian diaspora is the global community of ethnic Ukrainians, especially those who maintain some kind of connection, even if ephemeral, to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community." There are comparable articles about Ukrainian Australians, Ukrainian Argentines, etc. The Ukrainian disapora is like all diasporas such as the Armenian diaspora, Greek diaspora, Croatian diaspora, etc. an ethnic community. An ethnic Azeri from Armenia who emigrates to Brazil is not part of the Armenian Brazilian community. An ethnic Serb who flees Croatia and moved to Argentina is not an Argentine Croatian. This article is also in the category "ethnic groups in Brazil." While there are non-ethnic Ukrainians from the territory of Ukraine, these people, like Serbs in Croatia, are not necessarily part of the Ukrainian community, may not identify themselves as Ukrainians, and may indeed strongly identify with other ethnic/cultural groups. In the past there was some heated discussion about this and as a compromise, non-Ukrainians were listed in this article too, but in a separate section where they are clearly labeled as being descended from people born in Ukraine, so as not to confuse the reader into thinking that they are "Ukrainians." Faustian ( talk) 03:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Never identified as Ukrainian or "Ukrainian-Brazilian". Her mother was raped in Ukraine, by a nationalist gang, in the context of the crumbling of the Czarist Empire; this allegation of "Ukrainian-Brazilian" identity may be a cruel jape about such rape and her birthdate. Racist jokes should be removed from here. Ninguém ( talk) 22:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
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Ukraine was home to very many Jews, some of whom emigrated to Brazil. I've removed those people from the list of prominant Ukrainians because although they or their ancestors were from lands that are Ukraine they were not Ukrainians. Many of their ancestors were from cities (such as Odessa) where few people were actually Ukrainian and where very few even spoke Ukrainian. These people better belong in the article on Brazilian Jews. Otherwise even Sigmund Freud will become a prominant Ukrainian (his ancestors were from a shtetl in what is now Ukraine) Faustian ( talk) 21:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are you claiming a people who has been living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand year is not Ukrainian? Only because of their faith?
This sounds Nazi to me. Ukrainian-Jews have been living there for centuries. This make them Ukrainians; maybe more Ukrainians than many "ethinic Ukrainians". Opinoso ( talk) 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, Jews born in Ukraine are considered Ukrainians. We don't care if 100 years ago they were not. Opinoso ( talk) 21:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Nowadays, everybody see Jews born in Ukraine as Ukrainians. Ask people's opinition before excluding Jews from Ukrainian list only because of their religion and origin. Opinoso ( talk) 00:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Stop trying to revive a 200 years ago segregationist concept. Opinoso ( talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If those Jews did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, we don't care. Probably many Christian Ukrainians living in the border with Poland or Russia did not see themselves as Ukrainians at that time as well.
Those Brazilians do have ancestors who were born, raised and lived in nowadays Ukraine for centuries. We don't care if these ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Buddshist, whatever.
The fact is that they have ancestors living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand years, not matter their religion or what was writen in their passport.
I will not accept that 200 years ago racist views have space in Wikipedia. Jews were not accepted as Ukrainians only because of their religion. If a Jew wanted to hide his ancestry and came up saying he was Christian at that time, he would probably become a Ukrainian to the view of the society.
This is ridiculous.
Stop racism. Opinoso ( talk) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The issue of contention has to do with whether or not Jews from what was then Russia but now Ukraine should be categorized as Brazilian-Ukrainians. I state that they should not for reasons best summarized in a comment provided by ananonymous editor on the Clarice Lispector talk page [2]:
Essentially, people who were neither Ukrainian citizens, nor ethnic Ukrainians, nor Ukrainian-speaking should not be considered Ukrainians simply because the territory they left would decades later become the state of Ukraine.
I would note that there are very many non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, and there is nothing controversial about not categorizing them as Ukrainians. So there is a well-established precedent of not doing so. Here a just a few of many examples (I could literally give a list of hundreds if I had more time):
All of the people above are non-Ukrainians, despite all being from Ukraine. None of their wikipedia pages classifies then as Ukrainian. And if someone would try to do so to a well-known person such as Bulgakov, they would be quickly and correctly reverted. Why should the Brazilian Jews who emigrated from parts of the Russian Empire that are now Ukraine be any different from the Jews, Russians, Poles or Germans from Ukraine in the above list? Faustian ( talk) 15:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, but you have an old conseption. Opinoso ( talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
However, her parents were not from Russia or Poland. They were from Ukraine. Probably her grandparents and her family have been living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years.
The people you posted were only born in Ukraine, to non-Ukrainians parents and most did not spend their lives in Ukraine. I am sure that Jew, born in Ukraine, to Ukrainian parents and lived in Ukraine would be called "Ukrainian".
The people you posted are not examples. They did not work in Ukraine. Their did notority in other countries. Opinoso ( talk) 18:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You cannot assumed a person was Ukrainian or not because of his or her religion. How can you assume Clarice Lispector was totally Jewish? Maybe her grandmother was a Christian Ukrainian. Does this make her more or less Ukrainian?
Me and other users do not agree with or view: Christians born in Ukraine are Ukrainians, Jews born in Ukraine are not. How many of these Christians felt Ukrainians. How many spoke Ukrainian? I don't know, but maybe a lot of them had Russian parents and spoke Russian at home. How can you know it?
You are assuming a person is Ukrainian because of their faith. I already gave you this example:
If a Jew wanted to hide his Jewish ancestry, came out saying he was a Christian to the society; then he would be "Ukrainian" to your standarts, because you would never know if he was "ethnic" Ukrainian or not.
Assume Clarice Lispector may have some "ethnic" Ukrainian ancestry (she probably does, because Jews have been in Europe for 1 thousand years and, surrely, all European Jews have some degree of "European" ancestry).
All European Jews have some degree of European ancestry because it is impossible to be in a region for 1 thousand years and not mix with the locals.
This make Ukrainian-Jews also Ukrainians, regardless of their passport, religion or ethnicity. Opinoso ( talk) 18:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
We are in the 21st century. Nowadays, we see a person with ancestors born in Ukraine as Ukrainian. If Jews did not consider themselves and Ukrainians 200 years ago, it is because there was a strong racism in Europe; Christians tried as much as possible to marginalise the Jewish community, to the point that they had to create a "separete" identity for over 1 thousand years.
This is ridiculous. We are in the 21st century and this is no longer acceptable. Nowadays, a Jew born and raised in Ukraine will see himself as Ukraine because, as far as I know, this separete feeling does not exist anymore. The same way American Jews see themselves as Americans. We don't care if 200 years ago they did not see themselves as Americans.
I don't need to know about the History of the Jews in Eastern Europe to notice that you have a 200 years ago conseption.
According to your conseption, only people with Slavic blood could be considered Ukrainian; even though they Spoke Russian or Polish at home and hated Ukraine. Assuming that all European Jews have some degree of European admixture, and that all Ukrainian Jews had some degree of Slavic blood, according to your conseption of Slavic blood=Ukrainian, this make Jews from Ukraine, Ukrainians as well, because they do have different degrees of Slavic admixture.
I just can't believe that, in the 21st century, a person still tries to separete people from each other only because of the ethnicity or religion.
But, as I said, Jews from Ukraine do have Slavic blood, so they are Ukrainians as well, you like it or not. Speaking Ukrainian or not, Christians or not, they are Ukrainians by blood, not only by birth. Opinoso ( talk) 19:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
According to you, the United States had a non-American president. Opinoso ( talk) 19:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
Many Chinese Americans do not feel American, but Chinese. Some of them only speak Chinese and are treated as Chinese because of their physical apparence. So what? They were born in America, raised in America and are American citizens.
We don't care if a Chinese American does not feel American or is not treated as American. We don't care if he makes part of a Chinese "nation".
He was born in America, so he is an American, regardless of his Chinese roots, what language he speaks or what the society considers him to.
He is an American. The same way Brazilian Jews with roots in Ukraine MUST stay in an article about Ukrainian-Brazilians.
This is the reality. If you do not agree, I am sorry. If Clarice Lispector is not Ukrainian, George Washington is not American. Opinoso ( talk) 23:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
So, let's change this article's name to "Russians in Brazil". Because nobody had Ukrainian nationality at that time. All people born in nowadays Ukraine had were Russian citizens, including all Jews and Christians.
Let's change this article's name.
There's no such a thing as "Jewish country". The Jews were a nation, not a country.
The only Jewish country in the world is Israel, created 40 years ago.
So, if Jews born in Ukraine are not Ukrainians because they were no Ukrainian citizens, so nobody born in Ukraine until the I World War was Ukrainian, they were part of Russia.
So there was no Ukrainian immigration to Brazil, but Russian immigration.
So you are assuming that George Washington became American when he woke up and had a paper saying he was an America citizen? When he was born he was not an American, but one day, at age 30 he became an American?
Why are you saying only Slavic Ukrainians can be Ukrainians? Why Jews can't.
You say Jews can't be Ukrainians because:
Reality: Many Chinese Americans do not feel Ukrainians and are not treated as Americans, but are American citizens.
Reality: Nobody at that time were Ukrainian citizens, since Ukraine was under Russian rule. Everybody was Russian citizens, including Christians.
So, you have no arguments to say Jews were not Ukrainians. Nobody in Ukraine were Ukrainians citizens until World War I.
And the fact that Jews were not treated as Ukrainians is totally irrelevant.
You arguements are weak and pathetic. Opinoso ( talk) 01:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
If you have a 200 years old view, this is you own business. But, we are not obligated to accept you segregationist opinion.
There's no such a thing as "Ukrainian" ethnic group.
"Ethnic groups and races do not exist. Race and ethnic groups are state designations to easier control the human populations (Michel Foucault)".
There's no such a thing as "I belong to this ethnic group, and I am different from the rest". Jews were treated differently because of the prejudice against Jews in Europa. That's all. They were not biologically different from the Slavs, because all humans are genetically similar.
So, your argument that Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they are not "Slavs" is pathetic and old.
Their ethnicity will not say if they are Ukrainians or not. Neither what was writen in the passport. They have been in Ukraine for over 1 thousand years. They are as Ukrainian as their "Slav" neighbors. Opinoso ( talk) 01:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The same way "race" does not exist, but we keeping using this term, ethinic group does not exist as well.
Does God exist? Existing or not, He has an article in wikipedia. The same way ethnic groups do have.
You have weak arguments.
Since there is no genetic differences between humans, you cannot say Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they do not have "Slavic" blood. Odd conseption.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they did not view themselves as Ukrainians, because many Chinese Americans do not see themselves as Americans and are Americans as well.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they were not Ukrainians citizens, because at that time everody born in that region was Russian citizen.
So, you have NO arguments to explain why only Slavs can be Ukrainians and Jews can't.
The same way you cannot explain why only Native Indians can be Americans or Brazilians. You also cannot explain why White South-Africans cannot be South-africans.
Grow. Opinoso ( talk) 01:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
This is YOU 200 years ago opinion. 21st century opinion is the opposite. Since race or ethnic groups do not exist, everyone born in nowadays Ukraine were Ukrainians, regardless of their skin color, religion or other irrelevant informations.
I live in the 21st, new conseptions, humans are all the same. I am far away from you ridiculous 200 year ago view.
If you come with a resouce saying: "Ukrainians are only people with Slavic ancestry. Those with Jewish ancestry are not Ukrainians", I will not accept it, because all Jews in Ukraine have some degree of Slavic admixture, the same way many "Slavic" Ukrainians must have some degree of Jewish admixture.
GROW. Opinoso ( talk) 02:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that you read Foucault. He will teach you that ethnic groups, race and culture are creations of a small group of persons to separate human beings.
Human beings split into small groups are manipulated with ease.
Therefore, your concept to say that Ukrainians are only those who followed a Ukrainian culture (which would be a Ukrainian culture?) and are descendants of Slavs (which would be the Slavs?) is decadent.
The Jews were marginalized in Europe by interests of the Church. There are no ethnic groups. There are no "human comunities". You cannot measure a person's identity by race or religion. You cannot say a Jew is less Ukrainian than a Slavic because of his religion or ethnicity.
This is total racism.
There's no "Ukrainian culture", much less ethnic Ukrainian. Only people little studied can believe in these arbitrary divisions of human beings.
Read Michel Foucault before writing your pathetic point of view here. Opinoso ( talk) 02:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the article is about the ethnic Ukrainians in Brazil anyways, would it make sense to just say so in the beginning, and redirect readers interested in Jews from Ukraine to the Brazilian Jews article? It could read something like This article is about the ethnic Ukrainian immigrants to Brazil. For information about Jews from UKraine who settled in Brazil please see the History of the Jews in Brazil article. Jews fleeing pogroms are mentioned there already. Faustian ( talk) 22:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
If Clarice Lispector, born in Ukraine to Ukrainian parents cannot be Ukrainian because she had Jewish roots, did not speak Ukrainian or did not feel Ukrainian, George Washington was the first non-American president of America, because he had Britsh roots, did not speak a North-American language and probably felt more "Virginian" than "American".
Stop trying to separate Christians from Jews. This is pathetic. Opinoso ( talk) 23:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Lispector is Ukrainian. Her parents were born in Ukraine and were Russian citizens. The same way Slavic Ukrainians were Russian citizens. Opinoso ( talk) 01:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainians are a mixture of peoples. There is nothing homogeneous in Ukraine or in any other country in Europe.
Europeans are a mixture of peoples. Ethnic groups do not exist.
Jews and Slavs are genetically identical. All humans are.
So the concept that only "Slavs" are Ukrainians is ridiculous. Jews are also Ukrainians, and lived there for a thousand years.
Clarice is a human born in current Ukrainian territory. That makes her Ukrainian, regardless of her skin color or which religion she followed.
Grow, we are in the 21 st century. Opinoso ( talk) 01:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Human genetic difference is really, really small, like 0.0001%. So, Jews and Slavs are the same.
What a shame you still believe in human races. You are living in a 200 year ago period. Opinoso ( talk) 01:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
All humans are descended from a small group of people who came from African and have spread around the world. All humans have the same ancestry.
So, if you are claiming Jews are not Ukrainians because of their religion and roots, you are living in the 1700s. Opinoso ( talk) 02:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You cannot measure how Ukrainian a person was basing in his "ethnic group".
GROW. Opinoso ( talk) 02:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You believe Ukrainian is an ethnic group. You believe all Ukrainians share the same traditions. You believe it because you have a 200 years ago conseption.
You should read more. Do not believe in everything you hear. Have a little more of critical sense. Opinoso ( talk) 02:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
According to Faustian, only Christians with "Slav" roots can be Ukrainians. Jews living in nowadays Ukraine for 1 thousand years are not Ukrainians.
Faustian argues that Jews are not Ukrainians because they do not have "Ukrainian culture" and did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
However, according to the famous and renowned French philosopher
Michel Foucault, there are NO ethnic groups, races, human communities.
According to the philosopher, these divisions are made by the State. He argues that the state controls human beings divided into small groups more easily that all human together.
Then, according to the famous Foucault, there are NO ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian culture. They are only human inventions, human imagination to separate people into small groups.
Because there are no divided cultures, much less ethnic groups, it cannot be argued that only the people of Ukrainian culture, or Slavic descent are Ukrainians.
We are divided: on one side the user Faustian says that there is "ethnic Ukrainians" and only these can be Ukrainians.
In addition, the renowned French philosopher Michael Foucault says that there are no ethnic groups or communities; this is part of the human imagination, manipulated by the state.
On who should we believe? Believe in user Faustian or in the famous French philosopher Foucault?
I believe in Foucault.
And more: according to genetic researches, there are no human races: all people are descendants of a small group of people from Africa. Jews and Slavs, then, have the same ancestry.
Thus, based on the ideas of Foucault and in genetic researches, we CAN say with certainty that Jews born in Ukraine are Ukrainians.
Saying that only the Slavs have the right to be Ukrainians is an old racist idea.
Thus, the Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian origin MUST have their names listed in this article.
I ask Faustian, to stop creating an edit war. You use common sense to argue. Common sense, in most cases, is wrong. Genetically humans are the same, so there's no such a thing as only people of "Slavic" ethnicity can be Ukrainians. It is all part of human imagination, according to Foucault.
So stop the edit war and stop using common sense as an argument. Opinoso ( talk) 02:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You are using your own opinion.
I am not using my own opinion. I am using Foucault's arguements.
You started edit war in this articles. You erased the names of Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian descent. I am only including their names back.
It seems you have NO serious arguements against Foucault's. You are writing your opinion for who is a Ukrainian or who is not. You cannot use personal opinion in Wikipedia.
Then, stop discussion and stop edit war. Opinoso ( talk) 03:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
"Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, Ukrayintsi) are an East Slavic ethnic group primarily living in Ukraine, or more broadly—citizens of Ukraine (who may or may not be ethnic Ukrainians)."
I use the precendent of many wikipedia articles written about non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, such as:
I also use the definition of nation in the English language [8]:
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
So to be a Ukrainian according to the English language means one must meet one of the above criteria. The Jewish emigrants from the Russian empire you try to portray as Ukrainians meet none of them: they did not perceive themselves as unified with the Ukrainians (they spoke a different language, generally did not intermarry because they lived in their own communities, etc.); they did not belong to the same ethnicity.
So, in summary, you use the controversial opinions of a French philospher (wjo also claims that ethnicity does not exist), I use common usage, the defintion of the word in the language, and the precedent of many wikipedia articles. Faustian ( talk) 03:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I use the arguments of scholars. You use you own opinion.
Stop erasing the names of people in the article before asking other user's opinion and without giving any source or serious arguments for doing that.
Erasing informations and creating edit wars are vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 03:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You gave your own opinion about who is an Ukrainian and who is not. This is wrong, because Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinions.
You are trying to excluding Jews from being Ukrainians and did not give us serious arguments to do this.
You are assuming only people with Christian faith and Slavic ancestry are able to be Ukrainians. You did not give us arguments to affirm this.
All you do is giving your own opinion. You already addmited to be using "common usage".
Where do you think you are? In a forum where people leave their personal opinions?
NO, this is an encyclopedia. This is not the place to use "common usage".
If you don't see people living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years as "Ukrainians" only because they are Jews, than you really have an odd conseption, and it makes me sad, because we are in the 21st century, and these conseptions of "blood" and heritage remindes me Nazi.
I don't believe in your personal opinion. I believe in Foucault. He was not an authority in Ukrainians and Jews, the same way you are not.
But Foucault was a scholar, a famous scholar, who wrote renowned works on the human mind. In contrast to you, who never wrote anything.
So, stop creating edit wars, because none of your arguments are valid. You are addmite to be using "common usage". Nobody can take you seriously.
This is an encyclopedia. It is not a forum for opinions.
Careful, your vandalism here can generate a lock of your account on Wikipedia. Opinoso ( talk) 03:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, you are sending your personal opinion when trying to denigrate the work of Foucault.
Rather than give your useless opinion, bring sources saying why Jews born in Ukraine cannot be treated as Ukrainians.
If you do not bring the sources and continues with this edit war, I will ask aministradores to block you from wikipedia.
Foucault was a psychologist who knew the human mind. He understood that concepta as race, ethnicity and communities are made to manipulate the minds of people.
I don't care if you agree with him. It is a source to conffirm that Jews can be Ukrainians as well.
What about your sources? I can't see any. Oh, you use "common usage". Very intelligent person you are. While I use master Foucault as arguments, you use common usage.
This is hilarious. Opinoso ( talk) 04:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
NO, you didn't ask anynone their opinions. You are trying to obligate us to accept you segregationist conception.
I am Brazilian. In Brazil, Clarice Lispector is treated as a Brazilian of Ukrainian and Jewish roots. You like it ot not, Lispector was proud of her Ukrainian roots.
You know nothing about Brazil and is trying to exclude Jews from the list of Ukrainian Brazilians.
By the way, I NEVER put a name in the list. I don't care about Ukrainians, it was another user who included those Brazilian Jews in the list.
YOU erased the names included by another user giving YOUR personal opinion, or "common usage" as you said, as arguments.
You never came with a source saying "Clarice Lispector and her ancestors never considered themselves to be Ukrainians".
YOU are assuming from your mind they did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
You are assuming they didn't. You are giving you opinion.
In Brazil, my country, Lispector and the other Jews as famous journalist Bóris Casoy are known as Brazilians with both Ukrainian and Jewish ancestry, you like it or not.
So, stop erasing their names. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption and how Brazilians see themselves, not as people from Ukraine see themselves.
This article has nothing to do with racist and segregationist conseptions in Europe or in other places of the world. It has the Brazilian conseption.
You know NOTHING about Brazil and how Brazilians see themselves, and MUST be quiet and stop this stupid edit war. Opinoso ( talk) 04:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In Brazil, Jews of Ukrainian descent are descendants of Ukrainians. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil and their descendants. So, we are using the Brazilian conseption of that who is a Ukrainian. We don't care about "common usage" in other countries. This article is Brazilian, not Ukrainian. Opinoso ( talk) 04:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
How about if, for each person you want to place in the list of Brazilian-Ukrainians, a source is provided stating that this person is "Ukrainian." There will be no arguments there. But being from Odessa does not equal being Ukrainian. That would be an intepretation and wikipedia policy is clear about no original research.
So, let's not argue about how to define Ukrainian or not. Find a source claiming that a person is a Ukrainian person and then if you find such a source, put that person's name into the article as a Ukrainian person. There is a good reason why wikipedia policy forbids original research and this argument is an excellent illustration of that. I promise that if you find a source stating that a person is a Ukrainian person (not "from Ukraine" but a Ukrainian), I will not remove that person from the list. Faustian ( talk) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In Brazil, if you have ancestors who came from Ukraine, then you are descendant of Ukrainians, regardless of you race, religion or other useless informations.
Lispector was born in Ukraine, then she was naturalized Brazilian. This makes her a Brazilian descendant of Ukrainians of Jewish faith.
This is the Brazilian conseption, and this is the one we are using here.
All those Brazilian Jews in the list have ancestors who came from Ukraine, which make them automatically "descendants of Ukrainians" of Brazil, regardless of their religious ancestry.
So, you cannot erase their names, since it is an article about Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption. Opinoso ( talk) 04:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, I am not wasting my time with a person who uses "common usage" in an encyclopedia. But I will be around, so, do not try to put your segregationist ideas again. I am with my eyes opened.
Bye. Opinoso ( talk) 04:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Per the discussion above, I have hidden the names of those alleged Ukrainian Brazilians until such a time when sources are actually found that describe these people as "Ukrainians". The names have not been removed yet, and can be unhidden easily. If no source is found within 3 weeks I will remove the names from the list. I appreciate other editors' cooperation in following wikipedia policy: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." Thank you. Faustian ( talk) 14:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
When these "Ukrainians" came to Brazil, they were Russian citizens NO Ukrainians were listed at all.
In the "Memorial do Imigrante" website, everybody from Eastern Europe under Russian rule was listed as "Russian". There are not Ukrainians there. [10]
Since there was no Ukraine at that time, but only Russia, I will change this article's name to "Russians of Brazil" and include the name of Clarice Lispector, who was a Russian citizen as the other future-Ukrainians who came to Brazil.
If no source is found within 1 week saying these people were Ukrainians, not Russians, I will change the name of the article from "Ukrainians" to "Russians". Opinoso ( talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Ff Ukraine was under Russian rule, they were Russian citizens, the same way you argue Lispector was.
I give you 1 week to bring me sources to say Ukrainians who came to Brazil were not Russian citizens. If you do not have any, I will have to change the article's name to "Russians of Brazil", since they were not Ukrainians, but Russians. Opinoso ( talk) 20:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Changing the name would be a violation of WP:POINT and would be considered pretty disruptive. I suggest this action not be taken. This argument is actually quite silly. If these people are Ukrainians, then there should be sources that say they are. How hard can it be to find a few? I will even check myself. If not, then they should not be included. Ostap 04:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Article says there are 300,000 Ukrainian-Brazilians. How many of these were Ukrainians according to you, Faustian?
Probably many of these so-called 300,000 people are of Jewish origin, like Lispector.
According to you, a Jew cannot be Ukrainian. Why? Because they do not believe in Jesus Christ and do not have blond hair like Christian Ukrainians?
Because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture? Does this exist? What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian?? Wear typical clothes in a local party?
Stop this.
Hum, this is strange...really strange. Opinoso ( talk) 06:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Opinoso, the same way I disagree with removing jews from the article, I disagree with changing the article name to Russians instead of Ukrainians. Simply put, in Brazil there is a large Ukrainian community -- not Russian. Perhaps you're just trying to make a point? -- Pinnecco ( talk) 14:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It is obvious Faustian is trying to erase Lispector's name from this article because she was a JEW. The fact that she was a Russian citizen is irrelevant, because most people in Ukraine had Russian passports.
His other arguments is that Jews did not follow a "Ukrainian culture". I wonder if this exist. What makes a person follow a "Ukrainian culture"? Wear typical clothes? Dance some folk Ukrainian dance?
This is pathetic.
To Faustian, only people who believe in Jesus Christ or have blond hair can be Ukrainian. Jews cannot. Opinoso ( talk) 19:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
If your parents did not tell you your ancestors came from Ukraine, you would hardly know where Ukraine is located in a world map.
Ethnic groups do not exist. This is a human fantasy. Read Foucault, I already told you to this so.
Who cares if lispector did not see herself as Ukrainians? Do you have a poll saying how many people born in Ukraine in the early 20th century felt Ukrainians?
I give you 1 week to bring me a source saying only Jews did not feel Ukrainians.
By the way, you still did not answer me:
You said Lipector is not Ukrainian because she did not "follow a Ukrainian culture". What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian at home?
Is it wear typical clothes in a local party?
What is a Ukrainian culture?
I give you 1 week to report us why only people with a "Ukrainian culture" (?) can be Ukrainians.
You did not bring us sources to excluse Jews from the Ukrainian-Brazilian articles. So, stop erasing their names, because I brought sources to say they are Ukrainians.
21st view: ancestors from Ukraine= Ukrainian-descendant.
19th century Nazi view: only people with blond hair and who believe in Jesus are Ukrainians.
I prefer the 21st century view. Only you prefer the 19th century. You loose.
By the way, I am not accusing you of being a Nazi. You are assuming I am. However, your views are exactly the same as Nazi:
Only blond Catholic or Protestant Germans are Germans. Jews were not.
Why? Because they did not dance in a local party with typical Germanic clothes, getting drunk with beer in a Oktoberfest?
What is a German culture? What is a Ukrainian culture, so different from a Jewish? Aren't humans the same?
Faustian, wake up. This is 21st century, not 18th. Opinoso ( talk) 01:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
For people unfamiliar with ethnic identity issues but who have stumbled upon this conversation, here is some sourced infromation:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [11] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica classifies Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [12] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians."
So, not everyone from Ukraine was a Ukrainian and should be categorized as such in this article. Faustian ( talk) 23:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
How many of those Russian citizens from nowadays Ukraine felt Ukrainians? Very few of them.
The country did not even exist.
How many of them spoke Ukrainian? Probably many didn't.
Stop saying only people with "Ukrainian" culture are Ukrainians. A unify Ukrainian culture does not exist. People from different regions have different life styles.
What is a Ukrainian culture? Wearing typical clothes in a Easter party?
Stop watching Hollywood movies, please. Opinoso ( talk) 05:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
A person born in Ukraine is Ukrainian by everybody 21st century view. If you still live in the 18th century, it is your own problem.
So, stop erasing their names, this is vandalism.
Born in Ukraine=Ukrainian. Bring me sources saying "only people who believe in Jesus and have blond hair are Ukrainians. Jews are not".
You won't find this racist source. So, just give up and stop erasing informations with sources. This is vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Opinoso ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Stop using silly examples. Where are your sources to claim Jews from Ukraine are not Ukrainians?
If you don't have the sources, stop reverting. Stop vandalism. Opinoso ( talk) 03:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, sources stating that Jews are a different wthnic group than Ukrainians:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [13] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica cites the census as classifying Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [14] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians." Faustian ( talk) 03:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I would also add that whoever listed people on this article as Ukrainian must be the ones to provide the sources to show that they were. Better todo that instead of engage in edit warring. Faustian ( talk) 04:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Interestingly, in the article about White Brazilians, Opinoso believes that Portuguese Jews were not Portuguese, but "actually Jews". Here he believes the opposite: that Jews born in Ukrain are Ukrainian. Why? Ninguém ( talk) 02:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
According to Faustian, onlly those who speak Ukrainian, feel Ukrainian and follow a "Ukrainian culture" (?) are Ukrainians. Jews living in Ukraine for over 1,000 years cannot.
So, there are NO "Ukrainians of Brazil", because most of them cannot speak Ukrainian, do not feel Ukrainian and do not follow a Ukrainian culture.
Even those elderly generations who speak Ukrainian are largely influenced by "Brazilian culture". So, they loose their Ukrainian identity and culture as well.
So, should we exclude these so-called "Ukrainian Brazilians" from the article???
According to Faustian, YES. Because most Ukrainian-Brazilians do not speak Ukrainian, are only Brazilian citizens and do not care about Ukraine.
Do they have Ukrainian blood? Yes, but it does not matter. Blood is nothing. Ukraine was populated only 4,000 years ago. 100,000 years ago ALL humans were living in Africa.
Humans have ancestors from all around the world. So, a Brazilian having Ukrainian ancestors 3 generations back, probably have Italians, Mecedonians, Jews, Africans ancestors 17 generations back.
So, have or not Ukrainian blood does not make a person Ukrainian-Brazilian, according to you, Lispector was not Ukrainian because she had no "Ukrainian culture".
So, how many Ukrainian Brazilian exist? Probably only those who came from Ukraine recently, who speak Ukrainian and feel Ukrainian. 90% only speak Portuguese, don't care about Ukraine. They are only BRAZILIANS, according to Faustian.
If Jews living in Ukraine, like Lispector, for 1,000 years are not Ukrainians because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture and were not Ukrainian citizens, these people in Brazil are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because most do not follow a Ukrainian culture, are not Ukrainian citizens and do not feel Ukrainians as well.
Let's change this article's name to "Brazilians of Brazil". Opinoso ( talk) 04:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I am Brazilian and I do not know ANY Brazilian who can speak Ukrainian. Even in those Ukrainian communities of Paraná, only people older than 60 years-old can speak Ukrainian. The rest are monolingual in Portuguese.
Anyway, speaking Ukrainian DOES NOT make a person Ukrainian in culture. I can learn Japanese, but I will never be a Japanese in culture.
These "Ukrainian of Brazil" are no long Ukrainian in culture. By the way, what is it to be Ukrainian in culture? Wear typical clothes once a year in a local party?
Please, stop watching Hollywood movies.
These Ukrainians of Brazil are only Brazilians. This article must be erased. Opinoso ( talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
They are no longer Ukrainians in culture. So, they are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because according to you, only those who follow a Ukrainian culture (?) are Ukrainians.
Those in Brazil, if not totally, are largely influenced by non-Ukrainian culture.
They are only Brazilians. Opinoso ( talk) 04:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Most, probably all, also speak Portuguese. Younger generations probably only speak Portuguese. Most have contact with other Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food, watch Brazilian television.
Nobody in Ukraine have contact with Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food or watch Brazilian television.
Only these 4 segments make these Ukrainian-speaking people from Southern Brazil no longer Ukrainian in culture. Opinoso ( talk) 05:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Only a crazy person would imagine these Ukrainian-Brazilians live in isolated areas, watching Ukrainian television and only speaking Ukrainian.
All immigrants were integrated into Brazil's society. Some took only 1 generation, like the Portuguese and Italians, others took 3 or 4, like Germans and Japanese. Ukrainians are no exception.
Even those who speak Ukrainian are more Brazilians than Ukrainians. They watch Brazilian soap-operas like other Brazilians, they use orkut as most Brazilians, they wear Brazilian clothes. They live in a tropical country, with other views of life, other traditions.
They are no longer Ukrainians, not in culture. Some of them must be still influenced by the Ukrainian culture, being able to speak Ukrainian or to cook a Ukrainian dish.
But this is the case of older generations, the same way Japanese and Germans in Brazil. Young generations do not feel Ukrainian. I am not saying they don't care about Ukraine. But they do not love it.
My grandmother is the daughter of Italian immigrants and she knows nothing about Italy. The same goes for most so-called "Ukrainian-Brazilians". Opinoso ( talk) 05:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
You already attacked an user saying he could not talk about Eastern Europe because he was not "ethnic Ukrainian" as you are.
I will use the same argument: you cannot talk about Brazil, because you are not "ethinic Brazilian", as I am.
So, you talk about your 200 years ago Ukrainian conseptions. I talk about my 21st Brazilian conseptions.
In Brazil, Clarice and other Jews from Ukraine ARE Ukrainians. This article is about Brazil, so we use Brazilian conseptions, not odd conseptions from segregationist Ukraine.
In Brazil: ancestors from Ukraine = Ukrainian-descendant.
In Ukraine = we don't care. Opinoso ( talk) 05:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I have changed all references to "Ukrainians in Brazil" to "Brazilians of Ukrainian descent". The very person who states that "there are no Ukrainians in Brazil" reversed my edit, and called it vandalism. Funny that. Ninguém ( talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, the people refered to in this article are certainly not "Ukrainians in Brazil". They are, on the contrary, Brazilians of Ukrainian descent. Ninguém ( talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
This is from the website of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. I hope nobody accuses it of being a Nazi website or having 200 year old values: [16]
Jewish Identity
Jewish identity in the post-Soviet states is much more likely to be expressed as a sense of Jewish heritage than as adherence to Judaism as a religion. For Jews in these countries, the Jewish religion is hardly a factor in Jewishness. Russian and Ukrainian Jews consider belief in God, observance of the Sabbath, the dietary laws (kashrut), and circumcision as quite irrelevant to being a ‘good Jew.' What makes a good Jew is knowledge of history and culture and, especially, feeling pride in one's Jewishness and a duty to remember the Shoah or Holocaust.
Further, those Jews who identified most strongly as Jews were among the first to leave Ukraine when emigration became possible in the post-Khrushchev period. Jewish adults who remain in Ukraine are unlikely to be agents of Jewish socialization within their own families as decades of Soviet restrictions against Jewish education and practice have left them ignorant of Jewish tradition. Intermarriage also weakens the family as a transmitter of Jewish heritage.
So let's not rob Jewish people of their Jewish self-identification. Faustian ( talk) 13:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a factual note. That "only about 4-10% could actually speak Ukrainian" is a huge understatement. At least those who lived in Soviet Ukraine or live in modern Ukraine can speak Ukrainian in much higher numbers. It is more correct to say that for the Jews in Ukraine the UA language is usually not the mother tongue. That would be true. But Jews know Ukrainian and can speak it very well. -- Irpen 01:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Boris Casoy was born in São Paulo, not Ukraine at all. Opinoso ( talk) 16:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
What would be interesting would be a section on the Ukrainian contribution to Brazilian culture. Bandurist ( talk) 13:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Article from a Ukrainian newspaper: [17]. Faustian ( talk) 05:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
From the forward of a Ukrainian-Brazilian book:
« - По волі й по неволі мусимо шукати на чужині своєї України... Там, де нас закинула химерна доля... Бо Україна там, де ми зі своєю любов’ю до Неї, зі своїми думками про Неї, зі своїми зусиллями задля Неї...Бо Україна розселятиметься по всьому світу, куди ми нестимемо її ідею, де ми роститимемо її красу, з ким би не зв’язала нас для життя, для праці, для радощів і турбот, наша доля».
"Freely or not freely we must find in a foreign land our own Ukraine...There, where chimeric fate has thrown us... Because Ukraine is there, where there are we with our love for Her, with our thoughts about Her, with all our will towards Her...Because Ukraine is scattered across the whole world, where we carry its idea, where we nurture its beauty, with whom all our lives are tied, our work, our joys and sorrows, and our fate." Faustian ( talk) 04:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed Boris Casoy because I saw an interview where he reported to be the son of Russian Jews. Most sources also claim this. Opinoso ( talk) 03:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Article says: "As of 1994, 1.000.000 Ukrainians lived in Brazil, 80% (or approximately 350,000) of whom lived in a compact region ..." 80% of 1M is 800.000, not 350.000. Which number is correct? OlexiyO ( talk) 11:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is part of a series of articles about the Ukrainian diaspora, defined on that article as "The Ukrainian diaspora is the global community of ethnic Ukrainians, especially those who maintain some kind of connection, even if ephemeral, to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community." There are comparable articles about Ukrainian Australians, Ukrainian Argentines, etc. The Ukrainian disapora is like all diasporas such as the Armenian diaspora, Greek diaspora, Croatian diaspora, etc. an ethnic community. An ethnic Azeri from Armenia who emigrates to Brazil is not part of the Armenian Brazilian community. An ethnic Serb who flees Croatia and moved to Argentina is not an Argentine Croatian. This article is also in the category "ethnic groups in Brazil." While there are non-ethnic Ukrainians from the territory of Ukraine, these people, like Serbs in Croatia, are not necessarily part of the Ukrainian community, may not identify themselves as Ukrainians, and may indeed strongly identify with other ethnic/cultural groups. In the past there was some heated discussion about this and as a compromise, non-Ukrainians were listed in this article too, but in a separate section where they are clearly labeled as being descended from people born in Ukraine, so as not to confuse the reader into thinking that they are "Ukrainians." Faustian ( talk) 03:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Never identified as Ukrainian or "Ukrainian-Brazilian". Her mother was raped in Ukraine, by a nationalist gang, in the context of the crumbling of the Czarist Empire; this allegation of "Ukrainian-Brazilian" identity may be a cruel jape about such rape and her birthdate. Racist jokes should be removed from here. Ninguém ( talk) 22:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)