Thanks. These two articles are my first ship pieces. Let me know anything that's out of SOP for ship articles, since I'm considering writing more. —
Ed!(talk)01:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Your best bet for an SOP for ship articles are the FA-rated ones which you can use as a guide, which is how I learned to write them myself. Carriers are a bit different than other warships as you have to cover the air group's changes and operations in addition to whatever the ship is doing herself. The carrier FA articles that I'm aware of are HMS Ark Royal, HMS Courageous, HMS Eagle, Japanese carrier Hosho, and Japanese carrier Kaga. There may be others, especially for the Americans, but I haven't really looked.
You've got reasonable coverage of the air group up until Korea, but then you just give the name, which isn't good enough, especially since the aircraft change over time. Read Kirk's comments in
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/HMS Eagle (1918)/archive1 and
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi and you can get an idea of the kind of detail that people want in carrier articles. I couldn't fully answer everything that he wanted to know as you'll see if you read the articles closely, but he did want a lot of info. For this article, you're going to need to dig up rough totals of aircraft, by type, from Korea onwards until she becomes an AVT. Hopefully some of your books already have at least some of that info. Fortunately, this is only a GAN, so these articles are excused from some of that level of detail.
I can start the reviews now if you like, but I won't pass them until the air group info is added or I can sit on them until you've had a chance to dig up that info. I'm fine either way, just let me know what you'd like for me to do.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
22:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)reply
If it's all right with you, I'd prefer you finish the reviews, so I can get the resources again and add in anything else I'm missing in one go. As far as the aircraft go, do you think they should have a seperate section for each carrier's air group in the text? I saw the Ark Royal article merged aircraft and armament into one section but none of the FAs seem to cover US carriers, whose squadrons seem to rotate around more frequently. —
Ed!(talk)21:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)reply
South Boston Massachusetts comma after Boston. When referring to a place like Quonset Point, add a state or something similar to allow readers to place it without clicking on the link.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
CVG-20 commander Commander Robert M. Milner made the Used this way names and ranks are subordinate clauses and need to be set off by commas. Comma after commander and another after Milner.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
That's great, but an average reader doesn't know that the /38 means barrel length. Rephrase that part into something like 38-caliber 5-inch guns, etc. with appropriate links.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
The armament of her sisters is of little concern; just give her actual armament and mention that she was the only ship of the class not to have 20 mm guns.
No, it's not. Like other Essex-class ships, she could be armed with twelve 5-inch (127 mm)/38 caliber guns arrayed in four pairs and four single emplacements, as well as 8 quadruple Bofors 40 mm guns and a variable number of Oerlikon 20 mm cannons.[1] However, unlike the typical ships of the line, Philippine Sea was armed instead with forty-four 40mm guns. Reword all this bit and combine these two sentences. Philippine Sea and the other Essex's weren't ships of the line. You mean "unlike her
sister ships" Tell me how the 40 mm guns were arrayed, in x quadruple and y twin mounts or whatever.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Boiler pressures and temps not really suitable for infoboxes, IMO, and can be skipped for ordinary ship articles if there's a class article to cover that info. But you do need to recapitulate everything in the infobox somewhere in the main body or else add a cite (something I'd discourage, BTW). Read through the carrier FACs very closely and look at the info that's covered in those descriptive paragraphs and don't be afraid to copy paste them and change the numbers to suit your articles. That's often what I do. Also what endurance did she have? And was she coal or oil-fired?--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Mixup the ways in which you refer to the ship. You use a lot of "the ship" which is kinda monotonous. I use the ship's name, "the ship" and "she" and try not to use any of them in succession. I changed them in the paragraph about the ship's construction and naming as an example.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tell me what kind of aircraft these are: Douglas R45 Skytrains, two OY-1 Sentinels, a Sikorsky HO3S-1 and generally do that on the first mention of an aircraft through out the article so a reader doesn't have to click on a link to know if it's a fighter or whatever. There's a fine line between providing just enough info and not enough and I prefer to give just enough that a well-read reader doesn't need to click on a link--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Adding the additional aircraft info is good, but it's still incomplete. What I'd like to see is generally like the reference to CAG 20 where you detail the # of squadrons flying each type. Your recent additions mention the main aircraft flown, but ignore all the others that need to be mentioned. And some solid numbers of each type embarked during combat tours are needed. Not necessarily for each combat tour, but something to use as a baseline is necessary.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
This reads oddly: With the other carriers of Task Force 77, Philippine Sea targeted rail and communication centers around North Korean-controlled Seoul to Wonsan in September as part of a deception plan to draw North Korean attention away from the UN force massing for an attack on Inchon.[26] Stationed in the Yellow Sea, she sent numerous air attacks on Inchon and Wolmi-do in preparation for Operation Chromite.
Your Tico infobox templates need to be revised. Delete the as built as you can add it to the header caption as I've done for you and provide a metric conversion for all English units. And change the speed and armament to match the info in the main body. Add range to the infobox as well.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
17:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)reply
Thanks. These two articles are my first ship pieces. Let me know anything that's out of SOP for ship articles, since I'm considering writing more. —
Ed!(talk)01:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Your best bet for an SOP for ship articles are the FA-rated ones which you can use as a guide, which is how I learned to write them myself. Carriers are a bit different than other warships as you have to cover the air group's changes and operations in addition to whatever the ship is doing herself. The carrier FA articles that I'm aware of are HMS Ark Royal, HMS Courageous, HMS Eagle, Japanese carrier Hosho, and Japanese carrier Kaga. There may be others, especially for the Americans, but I haven't really looked.
You've got reasonable coverage of the air group up until Korea, but then you just give the name, which isn't good enough, especially since the aircraft change over time. Read Kirk's comments in
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/HMS Eagle (1918)/archive1 and
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi and you can get an idea of the kind of detail that people want in carrier articles. I couldn't fully answer everything that he wanted to know as you'll see if you read the articles closely, but he did want a lot of info. For this article, you're going to need to dig up rough totals of aircraft, by type, from Korea onwards until she becomes an AVT. Hopefully some of your books already have at least some of that info. Fortunately, this is only a GAN, so these articles are excused from some of that level of detail.
I can start the reviews now if you like, but I won't pass them until the air group info is added or I can sit on them until you've had a chance to dig up that info. I'm fine either way, just let me know what you'd like for me to do.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
22:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)reply
If it's all right with you, I'd prefer you finish the reviews, so I can get the resources again and add in anything else I'm missing in one go. As far as the aircraft go, do you think they should have a seperate section for each carrier's air group in the text? I saw the Ark Royal article merged aircraft and armament into one section but none of the FAs seem to cover US carriers, whose squadrons seem to rotate around more frequently. —
Ed!(talk)21:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)reply
South Boston Massachusetts comma after Boston. When referring to a place like Quonset Point, add a state or something similar to allow readers to place it without clicking on the link.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
CVG-20 commander Commander Robert M. Milner made the Used this way names and ranks are subordinate clauses and need to be set off by commas. Comma after commander and another after Milner.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
That's great, but an average reader doesn't know that the /38 means barrel length. Rephrase that part into something like 38-caliber 5-inch guns, etc. with appropriate links.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
The armament of her sisters is of little concern; just give her actual armament and mention that she was the only ship of the class not to have 20 mm guns.
No, it's not. Like other Essex-class ships, she could be armed with twelve 5-inch (127 mm)/38 caliber guns arrayed in four pairs and four single emplacements, as well as 8 quadruple Bofors 40 mm guns and a variable number of Oerlikon 20 mm cannons.[1] However, unlike the typical ships of the line, Philippine Sea was armed instead with forty-four 40mm guns. Reword all this bit and combine these two sentences. Philippine Sea and the other Essex's weren't ships of the line. You mean "unlike her
sister ships" Tell me how the 40 mm guns were arrayed, in x quadruple and y twin mounts or whatever.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Boiler pressures and temps not really suitable for infoboxes, IMO, and can be skipped for ordinary ship articles if there's a class article to cover that info. But you do need to recapitulate everything in the infobox somewhere in the main body or else add a cite (something I'd discourage, BTW). Read through the carrier FACs very closely and look at the info that's covered in those descriptive paragraphs and don't be afraid to copy paste them and change the numbers to suit your articles. That's often what I do. Also what endurance did she have? And was she coal or oil-fired?--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Mixup the ways in which you refer to the ship. You use a lot of "the ship" which is kinda monotonous. I use the ship's name, "the ship" and "she" and try not to use any of them in succession. I changed them in the paragraph about the ship's construction and naming as an example.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Tell me what kind of aircraft these are: Douglas R45 Skytrains, two OY-1 Sentinels, a Sikorsky HO3S-1 and generally do that on the first mention of an aircraft through out the article so a reader doesn't have to click on a link to know if it's a fighter or whatever. There's a fine line between providing just enough info and not enough and I prefer to give just enough that a well-read reader doesn't need to click on a link--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
Adding the additional aircraft info is good, but it's still incomplete. What I'd like to see is generally like the reference to CAG 20 where you detail the # of squadrons flying each type. Your recent additions mention the main aircraft flown, but ignore all the others that need to be mentioned. And some solid numbers of each type embarked during combat tours are needed. Not necessarily for each combat tour, but something to use as a baseline is necessary.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)reply
This reads oddly: With the other carriers of Task Force 77, Philippine Sea targeted rail and communication centers around North Korean-controlled Seoul to Wonsan in September as part of a deception plan to draw North Korean attention away from the UN force massing for an attack on Inchon.[26] Stationed in the Yellow Sea, she sent numerous air attacks on Inchon and Wolmi-do in preparation for Operation Chromite.
Your Tico infobox templates need to be revised. Delete the as built as you can add it to the header caption as I've done for you and provide a metric conversion for all English units. And change the speed and armament to match the info in the main body. Add range to the infobox as well.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
17:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)reply