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Maybe we should only put teams into the article after they actually clinch the spot for the tournament. Kingjeff ( talk) 15:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It's simpler. What if teams win the league and win the Cup. Do they get both UEFA Cup and Champions League spots? What if they win the fair play award from their league? Do they get a UEFA Cup fair play spot? What if Bayern wins the German cup and gets the Intertoto Cup spot. Which one do they get? The point is that it's not as simple as saying that they win a spot in Champions league, uefa cup or intertoto cup if they finish in a certain spot in a domestic league, domestic cup or european cup. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I was just pointing out that it's not as simple as saying that a specific spot in in domestic competitions = a specific spot in European competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How simple it is is really up to the reader. Therefore, having multiple teams in one spot can make out like all of those teams have qualified. Kingjeff ( talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I came up with an idea of having an inter-wiki project for Champions League, UEFA Cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup. The idea is we can have match reports from Wikinews and use them on Wikipedia article for 2008-09 Champions League, 2008-09 UEFA Cup and 2008 UEFA Intertoto Cup. There should be no sourcing issues since there is a requirement of 2 sources per match report.
There will be 213 matches for Champions League, 359 UEFA Cup matches, 78 Intertoto Cup matches for a total of 650 matches. Therefore, there will be a number of people needed to do this. If you're interested or have any questions or comments, you can ask them here or if you would like to sign-up, you can go here. Don't write how this is too big or a bad idea. This is to survey to see how viable this is. However, if you have some constructive comment or question, then feel free to add. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I moved the Early Issue section because it's better to see it at the top then inbetween the first round and final. 76.67.62.25 ( talk) 05:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we need the English clubs controversy section? Surely the section would only be relevant if Cardiff had qualified for the UEFA, which they haven't. KyleRGiggs recently added a hidden comment saying it shows the future of the Welsh teams playing in England. How does it? Surely we should have the section when a Welsh side actually wins the FA Cup, not when they haven't. -- OZ OO ( Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
FC Nordsjælland have been added as the Danish fair-play representive. Is this sourced to anything? The present source only mentions Denmark, not the team. -- OZ OO ( Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that both IRL teams are listed as unseeded first qualification round teams. However, St Patricks have been put in the table for second qualification round teams. Since I assume that Irish FA teams are not allowed to get directly into the second round, is this a case of wrong placement? 91.36.192.161 ( talk) 10:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
MTK Budapest won their game against Rákospalotai EAC tonight. With MTK playing Sopron this weekend (see www.kicker.de) and all matches of Sopron being counted as won for their opponents (see Sopron's wiki page for details), MTK cannot be moved from 1st place any more. So, the "Hungarian picture" looks like the following:
MTK Budapest: Clinched CL qualification spot
Debreceni VSC: Clinched UEFA Cup qualification spot
Honvéd Budapest: Earned spot of Hungarian Cup winner because they play Debrecen in the finals - Edited: Honvéd not in, see below
Hockey-holic (
talk)
11:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this constellation is immovable now, can all Hungarian participants be assigned to their respective cups? Hockey-holic ( talk) 22:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone edited my changes from Honvéd to the 3rd placed teams in the Soproni Liga.
Why?
The Runners up in the Hungarian Cup gets the spot, not the 3rd placed team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.31.185 ( talk) 04:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Once again someone edited in the 3rd placed club in the League.
Anyone else caught doing this, and I will move to have the page protected to prevent further vandalising.
Someone doesn't seem to understand that :
1. Cup has not been decided. Would Honvéd prevail and win the cup, they would automatically qualify (Unlikely given first leg ended 7-0 for Debrecen) 2. Because Debrecen already have taken 2nd place, they are ineligible to also take the Cup Winners spot. Therefore if they win the Cup, the runners up get the UEFA Cup spot that the winners normally receive.
NOT the 3rd placed club in the Hungarian League.
Do NOT edit in the 3rd placed team again, it will be deemed vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.192.207 ( talk) 18:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
First, thanks to Isavevski for coming up with the source. According to this article, FK Zemun have not gained an UEFA license in order to participate in this year's UEFA Cup. They have ten days to appeal this decision. If the ruling still stands after that, their spot of being the losing domestic Cup finalists will be awarded to 4th placed Borac Cacak. Hockey-holic ( talk) 21:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
If CSKA does not regain its UEFA license, there will be no CL participant from Bulgaria this year. Thus, Levski, Litex and Locomotiv Sofia would remain in the UEFA Cup.
Source:
See also the Champions League talk page.
Hockey-holic ( talk) 09:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Having only three scorers on the top scorers chart seems a little understated. Does anyone have the info to add those goalscorers on two goals? Assuming there are some... I don't think we need to add the scorers on one goal, though; that would be overkill. Falastur2 ( talk) 14:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Using the World Cup is a very weak arguement. World Cup Qualificiation is a tournament hosted by each confederation whereas the World Cup is directly a FIFA event. I am more inclined to include goals from UEFA Champions League qualification and UEFA Cup qualification. Kingjeff ( talk) 23:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I would say that unless there is a reliable source for the qualifying round goal scorers, we shouldn't have the tables. I couldn't find any such info on google except the page on soccernet.espn.go.com, which doesn't have all the goalscorers, for some reason. Where is the current top scorers info in the article coming from, by the way? Since there are a lot of matches being played, it's easy to miss quite a few goalscorers if it's currently done manually. Â AR TYOMÂ 23:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
...unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments...
A fair point. I'm still rather neutral on whether to keep the info or not, really, so I'm going to withdraw from the debate at this point. And apologies, PeeJay, I didn't mean to sound like I was "lawyering" you. Falastur2 ( talk) 01:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is there an overall table and an qualifying round only table? There should be only the overall table or a qualifying round table with a final tournamen table.
Kingjeff (
talk)
02:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for a vote? Kingjeff ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
May I remind everybody involved in this case to remain cool-headed? You are just in the middle of an edit war. I would propose to solve this matter over at the WP:FOOTY discussion page. The reason for this is that if qualifying scoring should be included, it has to happen at the CL article as well. So, calm down people.
Grant, you are citing a former consensus reached on the topic as reason for your edits. Would you be able to find the respective discussion somewhere in the archives? Hockey-holic ( talk) 01:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
My point of view is that the goals in the Qualifying Rounds have to count because it is part of the competition. However, I would propose a table similar to the one here: [ [1]] This kind of table could record goalscorers by round, which is very helpful in a tournament such as this, with teams entering at almost every stage. Perhaps someone could adapt the table in the above link to serve everyone's interests here. Rougue1987 ( talk) 00:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:OR states that "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas." There is no original research. and there is no original thought and it is published through all the match reports. I just stated, "...and it is published through all the match reports." This is an indirect method. The question is can an indirect method like Match Reports be used? UEFA.COM is definetely verifiable. Kingjeff ( talk) 01:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Vote for one overall sortable table which would include one column for qualifying goals, one column for final tournament goals and an overall column which would combine the two previously mentioned columns.
Player | Team | QR | FT | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
Player A | Team A | 5 | 14 | 19 |
Player B | Player B | 1 | 15 | 16 |
Player C | Team A | 3 | 17 | 20 |
Player D | Team C | - | 10 | 10 |
Vote for two tables where one table would include only qualifying goals and the other table would only include final tournament goals.
I know the example tables are from last season's UEFA Cup. Just pretend they are two different tables. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Rank | Name | Team | Goals |
---|---|---|---|
1 |
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10 |
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3 |
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7 |
4 |
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6 |
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7 |
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5 |
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Only include goals from the tournament proper.
Vote for a Round-By-Round Table which would include a column for each qualifying round and each round of the tournament along a total column.
Rank | Player | Total goals |
Goals by round | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
R1 | R2 | R3 | R4 | PO | |||
1 |
![]() |
6 | 6 | 0 | |||
2 |
![]() |
5 | — | 5 | |||
3 |
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4 | — | 4 | |||
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4 | 4 | 0 | ||||
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4 | — | 4 | ||||
6 |
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3 | — | 3 | |||
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3 | 1 | 2 | ||||
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3 | 2 | 1 | X | X | X | |
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3 | 3 | 0 | X | X | X | |
![]() |
3 | — | 3 | ||||
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3 | — | 3 |
Since the edit war has not stopped as of now, I requested protection for this article in order to prevent further disruptive actions. I ask the opposed parties to settle their dispute on the WP:FOOTY talk page. Hockey-holic ( talk) 16:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Due to the recent
edit warring this page has been
protected for a period of time. Please use the time to discuss the matter here and come to a
consensus on what should and shouldn't be included on the page. If an urgent edit needs to be made during the protection, please place the template {{
editprotected}} here with details of the edit that needs to be made and justification for the edit, and an administrator will come by to make the edit. If you have agreed and resolved the dispute before the expiry of the protection, please make a listing at
requests for unprotection. While it is also possible to make such requests on my talk page, it would be quicker for you to use those previous methods. Thank you.
Stifle (
talk)
18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Due to this edit war and the ensuing decision to edit protect, the latest qualification developments have not been included, namely the results of the eight return legs played in the Intertoto Cup today. Administrator, please make these updates by updating the participant list in the Second Qualifying Round to include the IC third round winners Grasshopper Zurich, Braga, Deportivo, Napoli, Rennes, Sturm Graz, Vaslui and Aston Villa and eliminate the names/flags of their opponents Burgas, Sivassport, Bnei Sakhnin, Panionios, Tavriya, Honved, Neftchi Baku, and Odense. This should be an uncontroversial edit. SunnyDSunnyD ( talk) 22:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Think I've updated all Intertoto references now, so removing editprotected template Sam Vimes | Address me 21:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Just an additional note that relates to the discussion over which goalscorers should be included. The "tournament statistics" box is currently inconsistent with previous versions of the UEFA Cup. It should read 0 matches and (obviously) 0 goals as the official bit of the tournament has not yet started.
Jlsa (
talk)
00:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Note: Since the protection will be lifted in a couple of hours, I would appeal to everybody to refrain from adding any lists with goalscorers until the matter is ressolved via consensus (see above). Hockey-holic ( talk) 19:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Then maybe Grant should stop vandilizing the page. Kingjeff ( talk) 20:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
While I would have thought the scorers table should be in (a) because I think it is right and (b) that was the status quo before the edit-warring started, I will accept the alternative position for now until a wider consensus has been acheived. -
fchd (
talk)
20:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The tables was status quo. I was simply reverting vandalism. Grant wants his own way and intended to battle until he got it. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
You are actually wrong on both accounts. Kingjeff ( talk) 22:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
We both know you want it that way. You vandalized the page and you like edit warring.
Kingjeff (
talk)
22:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
What has been done regarding Qualifying Rounds goals in articles about previous years? Jayjg (talk) 00:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I am arguing for a very different precidents here. One precident for international competitions for national teams and another one club competitions that are ran by confederations. Qualifying for international competitions for national teams is very different, in both how it's played and in the administrative funtioning, from club competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 04:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Grant, look at the next section and ask why are any matches on this page at all? If you're right about the qualification, then doesn't qualification merit it's own page? Kingjeff ( talk) 05:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
If, as some suggest, the qualifying matches are not part of the UEFA Cup, then why are those results on this page? Shouldn't they be on some other page - Qualification for the UEFA Cup 2008-09 or something like that? Jlsa ( talk) 05:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
My argument is in 2 parts: The first is simply that you make a valid point that should be discussed either at this page or (preferably) at WT:FOOTY so as to establish a broad consensus as to the direction of this series of articles. All I'm saying is that we can't (or at the very least shouldn't) change a well established consensus about how we treat football competitions on WP without having an extensive conversation about it. The second is that in (good) articles about football competitions, some attempt is made to cover the qualification process for that competition. If the qualifying process is simple (or not well covered enough) as to be detailed briefly in the article, we do so. If, however, there is enough detail or complication as to warrent or require a seperate article about the qualification process (like with the World Cup or European Championships) we simply link to a more specific and detailed article. I think that if there is enough detail available to justify a seperate article, then we should create and link to it, but if not, the article is fine as it currently is. -- Grant . Alpaugh 08:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
"The quote specifically says that only goals from the first round onwards (i.e. the competition proper) count toward totals for UEFA's purposes." What about something for Wikipedia's purpose? "Compiling statistics and giving them undue significance is the very definition of WP:OR." Doesn't this mean that recording results is giving undue significance? Kingjeff ( talk) 04:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no original research Grant. I know what the quote said. I was the one who quoted you. Do you remember that? I simply asked "Doesn't this mean that recording results is giving undue significance?" Kingjeff ( talk) 04:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess you're just too single minded to understand the question. Let me ask you this. Do you think all women should be cooking, cleaning and popping out babies? Kingjeff ( talk) 04:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody wrote that the current groups for the first round proper will be the eventual groups for the group stage. However, this isnt the case - there's a separate draw (as it even says on the page here) for the group stage to determine the groups. I think we need to make sure this isnt changed and that people dont get misled here. Either way, I changed it. Interesting draw though! -- Simonski ( talk) 14:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=743487.html suggests that we shouldn't even be mentioning groups yet. The first round appears to be a straight knockout round with 40 ties: clubs ranked 108 or higher were seeded. Is there any evidence that the "first round groups" mean anything? Pete Ridges ( talk) 15:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Anybody any idea when they're announcing the specific fixtures for the group stage? -- 130.159.248.44 ( talk) 11:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to make two tables into one line. Such as the design at the free agents section in 2008–09 Miami Heat season article. But it seems failed. Could anybody give me a help? Thanks. Raymond "Giggs" K o 02:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Rather pointless, no? Especially at this stage regarding first/second place, when there is another article for the group stage which repeats it all. Surely all that matters is whether they go through or not? It just makes the main UEFA Cup page unnecessarily long. Feudonym ( talk) 00:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Ia there an explanation somewhere as to what the regions map is about? Why are there regions within UEFA and do the affect the set up of the cup competition somehow? Wiggy! ( talk) 12:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
2008-09 UEFA Cup. This map is wrong! Cyprus has two clubs in the first round. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.109.53.237 ( talk) 18:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
It's 2017, and no one has fixed this map! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.231.226 ( talk) 03:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
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Maybe we should only put teams into the article after they actually clinch the spot for the tournament. Kingjeff ( talk) 15:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It's simpler. What if teams win the league and win the Cup. Do they get both UEFA Cup and Champions League spots? What if they win the fair play award from their league? Do they get a UEFA Cup fair play spot? What if Bayern wins the German cup and gets the Intertoto Cup spot. Which one do they get? The point is that it's not as simple as saying that they win a spot in Champions league, uefa cup or intertoto cup if they finish in a certain spot in a domestic league, domestic cup or european cup. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I was just pointing out that it's not as simple as saying that a specific spot in in domestic competitions = a specific spot in European competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 17:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How simple it is is really up to the reader. Therefore, having multiple teams in one spot can make out like all of those teams have qualified. Kingjeff ( talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I came up with an idea of having an inter-wiki project for Champions League, UEFA Cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup. The idea is we can have match reports from Wikinews and use them on Wikipedia article for 2008-09 Champions League, 2008-09 UEFA Cup and 2008 UEFA Intertoto Cup. There should be no sourcing issues since there is a requirement of 2 sources per match report.
There will be 213 matches for Champions League, 359 UEFA Cup matches, 78 Intertoto Cup matches for a total of 650 matches. Therefore, there will be a number of people needed to do this. If you're interested or have any questions or comments, you can ask them here or if you would like to sign-up, you can go here. Don't write how this is too big or a bad idea. This is to survey to see how viable this is. However, if you have some constructive comment or question, then feel free to add. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I moved the Early Issue section because it's better to see it at the top then inbetween the first round and final. 76.67.62.25 ( talk) 05:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we need the English clubs controversy section? Surely the section would only be relevant if Cardiff had qualified for the UEFA, which they haven't. KyleRGiggs recently added a hidden comment saying it shows the future of the Welsh teams playing in England. How does it? Surely we should have the section when a Welsh side actually wins the FA Cup, not when they haven't. -- OZ OO ( Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
FC Nordsjælland have been added as the Danish fair-play representive. Is this sourced to anything? The present source only mentions Denmark, not the team. -- OZ OO ( Whaddya think, sirs?) 10:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that both IRL teams are listed as unseeded first qualification round teams. However, St Patricks have been put in the table for second qualification round teams. Since I assume that Irish FA teams are not allowed to get directly into the second round, is this a case of wrong placement? 91.36.192.161 ( talk) 10:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
MTK Budapest won their game against Rákospalotai EAC tonight. With MTK playing Sopron this weekend (see www.kicker.de) and all matches of Sopron being counted as won for their opponents (see Sopron's wiki page for details), MTK cannot be moved from 1st place any more. So, the "Hungarian picture" looks like the following:
MTK Budapest: Clinched CL qualification spot
Debreceni VSC: Clinched UEFA Cup qualification spot
Honvéd Budapest: Earned spot of Hungarian Cup winner because they play Debrecen in the finals - Edited: Honvéd not in, see below
Hockey-holic (
talk)
11:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Since this constellation is immovable now, can all Hungarian participants be assigned to their respective cups? Hockey-holic ( talk) 22:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone edited my changes from Honvéd to the 3rd placed teams in the Soproni Liga.
Why?
The Runners up in the Hungarian Cup gets the spot, not the 3rd placed team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.31.185 ( talk) 04:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Once again someone edited in the 3rd placed club in the League.
Anyone else caught doing this, and I will move to have the page protected to prevent further vandalising.
Someone doesn't seem to understand that :
1. Cup has not been decided. Would Honvéd prevail and win the cup, they would automatically qualify (Unlikely given first leg ended 7-0 for Debrecen) 2. Because Debrecen already have taken 2nd place, they are ineligible to also take the Cup Winners spot. Therefore if they win the Cup, the runners up get the UEFA Cup spot that the winners normally receive.
NOT the 3rd placed club in the Hungarian League.
Do NOT edit in the 3rd placed team again, it will be deemed vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.192.207 ( talk) 18:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
First, thanks to Isavevski for coming up with the source. According to this article, FK Zemun have not gained an UEFA license in order to participate in this year's UEFA Cup. They have ten days to appeal this decision. If the ruling still stands after that, their spot of being the losing domestic Cup finalists will be awarded to 4th placed Borac Cacak. Hockey-holic ( talk) 21:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
If CSKA does not regain its UEFA license, there will be no CL participant from Bulgaria this year. Thus, Levski, Litex and Locomotiv Sofia would remain in the UEFA Cup.
Source:
See also the Champions League talk page.
Hockey-holic ( talk) 09:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Having only three scorers on the top scorers chart seems a little understated. Does anyone have the info to add those goalscorers on two goals? Assuming there are some... I don't think we need to add the scorers on one goal, though; that would be overkill. Falastur2 ( talk) 14:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Using the World Cup is a very weak arguement. World Cup Qualificiation is a tournament hosted by each confederation whereas the World Cup is directly a FIFA event. I am more inclined to include goals from UEFA Champions League qualification and UEFA Cup qualification. Kingjeff ( talk) 23:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I would say that unless there is a reliable source for the qualifying round goal scorers, we shouldn't have the tables. I couldn't find any such info on google except the page on soccernet.espn.go.com, which doesn't have all the goalscorers, for some reason. Where is the current top scorers info in the article coming from, by the way? Since there are a lot of matches being played, it's easy to miss quite a few goalscorers if it's currently done manually. Â AR TYOMÂ 23:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
...unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments...
A fair point. I'm still rather neutral on whether to keep the info or not, really, so I'm going to withdraw from the debate at this point. And apologies, PeeJay, I didn't mean to sound like I was "lawyering" you. Falastur2 ( talk) 01:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is there an overall table and an qualifying round only table? There should be only the overall table or a qualifying round table with a final tournamen table.
Kingjeff (
talk)
02:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for a vote? Kingjeff ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
May I remind everybody involved in this case to remain cool-headed? You are just in the middle of an edit war. I would propose to solve this matter over at the WP:FOOTY discussion page. The reason for this is that if qualifying scoring should be included, it has to happen at the CL article as well. So, calm down people.
Grant, you are citing a former consensus reached on the topic as reason for your edits. Would you be able to find the respective discussion somewhere in the archives? Hockey-holic ( talk) 01:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
My point of view is that the goals in the Qualifying Rounds have to count because it is part of the competition. However, I would propose a table similar to the one here: [ [1]] This kind of table could record goalscorers by round, which is very helpful in a tournament such as this, with teams entering at almost every stage. Perhaps someone could adapt the table in the above link to serve everyone's interests here. Rougue1987 ( talk) 00:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:OR states that "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas." There is no original research. and there is no original thought and it is published through all the match reports. I just stated, "...and it is published through all the match reports." This is an indirect method. The question is can an indirect method like Match Reports be used? UEFA.COM is definetely verifiable. Kingjeff ( talk) 01:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Vote for one overall sortable table which would include one column for qualifying goals, one column for final tournament goals and an overall column which would combine the two previously mentioned columns.
Player | Team | QR | FT | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
Player A | Team A | 5 | 14 | 19 |
Player B | Player B | 1 | 15 | 16 |
Player C | Team A | 3 | 17 | 20 |
Player D | Team C | - | 10 | 10 |
Vote for two tables where one table would include only qualifying goals and the other table would only include final tournament goals.
|
|
I know the example tables are from last season's UEFA Cup. Just pretend they are two different tables. Kingjeff ( talk) 03:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Rank | Name | Team | Goals |
---|---|---|---|
1 |
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10 |
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3 |
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7 |
4 |
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6 |
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7 |
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5 |
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Only include goals from the tournament proper.
Vote for a Round-By-Round Table which would include a column for each qualifying round and each round of the tournament along a total column.
Rank | Player | Total goals |
Goals by round | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
R1 | R2 | R3 | R4 | PO | |||
1 |
![]() |
6 | 6 | 0 | |||
2 |
![]() |
5 | — | 5 | |||
3 |
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4 | — | 4 | |||
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4 | 4 | 0 | ||||
![]() |
4 | — | 4 | ||||
6 |
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Since the edit war has not stopped as of now, I requested protection for this article in order to prevent further disruptive actions. I ask the opposed parties to settle their dispute on the WP:FOOTY talk page. Hockey-holic ( talk) 16:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Due to the recent
edit warring this page has been
protected for a period of time. Please use the time to discuss the matter here and come to a
consensus on what should and shouldn't be included on the page. If an urgent edit needs to be made during the protection, please place the template {{
editprotected}} here with details of the edit that needs to be made and justification for the edit, and an administrator will come by to make the edit. If you have agreed and resolved the dispute before the expiry of the protection, please make a listing at
requests for unprotection. While it is also possible to make such requests on my talk page, it would be quicker for you to use those previous methods. Thank you.
Stifle (
talk)
18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Due to this edit war and the ensuing decision to edit protect, the latest qualification developments have not been included, namely the results of the eight return legs played in the Intertoto Cup today. Administrator, please make these updates by updating the participant list in the Second Qualifying Round to include the IC third round winners Grasshopper Zurich, Braga, Deportivo, Napoli, Rennes, Sturm Graz, Vaslui and Aston Villa and eliminate the names/flags of their opponents Burgas, Sivassport, Bnei Sakhnin, Panionios, Tavriya, Honved, Neftchi Baku, and Odense. This should be an uncontroversial edit. SunnyDSunnyD ( talk) 22:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Think I've updated all Intertoto references now, so removing editprotected template Sam Vimes | Address me 21:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Just an additional note that relates to the discussion over which goalscorers should be included. The "tournament statistics" box is currently inconsistent with previous versions of the UEFA Cup. It should read 0 matches and (obviously) 0 goals as the official bit of the tournament has not yet started.
Jlsa (
talk)
00:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Note: Since the protection will be lifted in a couple of hours, I would appeal to everybody to refrain from adding any lists with goalscorers until the matter is ressolved via consensus (see above). Hockey-holic ( talk) 19:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Then maybe Grant should stop vandilizing the page. Kingjeff ( talk) 20:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
While I would have thought the scorers table should be in (a) because I think it is right and (b) that was the status quo before the edit-warring started, I will accept the alternative position for now until a wider consensus has been acheived. -
fchd (
talk)
20:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The tables was status quo. I was simply reverting vandalism. Grant wants his own way and intended to battle until he got it. Kingjeff ( talk) 21:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
You are actually wrong on both accounts. Kingjeff ( talk) 22:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
We both know you want it that way. You vandalized the page and you like edit warring.
Kingjeff (
talk)
22:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
What has been done regarding Qualifying Rounds goals in articles about previous years? Jayjg (talk) 00:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I am arguing for a very different precidents here. One precident for international competitions for national teams and another one club competitions that are ran by confederations. Qualifying for international competitions for national teams is very different, in both how it's played and in the administrative funtioning, from club competitions. Kingjeff ( talk) 04:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Grant, look at the next section and ask why are any matches on this page at all? If you're right about the qualification, then doesn't qualification merit it's own page? Kingjeff ( talk) 05:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
If, as some suggest, the qualifying matches are not part of the UEFA Cup, then why are those results on this page? Shouldn't they be on some other page - Qualification for the UEFA Cup 2008-09 or something like that? Jlsa ( talk) 05:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
My argument is in 2 parts: The first is simply that you make a valid point that should be discussed either at this page or (preferably) at WT:FOOTY so as to establish a broad consensus as to the direction of this series of articles. All I'm saying is that we can't (or at the very least shouldn't) change a well established consensus about how we treat football competitions on WP without having an extensive conversation about it. The second is that in (good) articles about football competitions, some attempt is made to cover the qualification process for that competition. If the qualifying process is simple (or not well covered enough) as to be detailed briefly in the article, we do so. If, however, there is enough detail or complication as to warrent or require a seperate article about the qualification process (like with the World Cup or European Championships) we simply link to a more specific and detailed article. I think that if there is enough detail available to justify a seperate article, then we should create and link to it, but if not, the article is fine as it currently is. -- Grant . Alpaugh 08:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
"The quote specifically says that only goals from the first round onwards (i.e. the competition proper) count toward totals for UEFA's purposes." What about something for Wikipedia's purpose? "Compiling statistics and giving them undue significance is the very definition of WP:OR." Doesn't this mean that recording results is giving undue significance? Kingjeff ( talk) 04:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no original research Grant. I know what the quote said. I was the one who quoted you. Do you remember that? I simply asked "Doesn't this mean that recording results is giving undue significance?" Kingjeff ( talk) 04:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess you're just too single minded to understand the question. Let me ask you this. Do you think all women should be cooking, cleaning and popping out babies? Kingjeff ( talk) 04:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody wrote that the current groups for the first round proper will be the eventual groups for the group stage. However, this isnt the case - there's a separate draw (as it even says on the page here) for the group stage to determine the groups. I think we need to make sure this isnt changed and that people dont get misled here. Either way, I changed it. Interesting draw though! -- Simonski ( talk) 14:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=743487.html suggests that we shouldn't even be mentioning groups yet. The first round appears to be a straight knockout round with 40 ties: clubs ranked 108 or higher were seeded. Is there any evidence that the "first round groups" mean anything? Pete Ridges ( talk) 15:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Anybody any idea when they're announcing the specific fixtures for the group stage? -- 130.159.248.44 ( talk) 11:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to make two tables into one line. Such as the design at the free agents section in 2008–09 Miami Heat season article. But it seems failed. Could anybody give me a help? Thanks. Raymond "Giggs" K o 02:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Rather pointless, no? Especially at this stage regarding first/second place, when there is another article for the group stage which repeats it all. Surely all that matters is whether they go through or not? It just makes the main UEFA Cup page unnecessarily long. Feudonym ( talk) 00:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Ia there an explanation somewhere as to what the regions map is about? Why are there regions within UEFA and do the affect the set up of the cup competition somehow? Wiggy! ( talk) 12:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
2008-09 UEFA Cup. This map is wrong! Cyprus has two clubs in the first round. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.109.53.237 ( talk) 18:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
It's 2017, and no one has fixed this map! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.231.226 ( talk) 03:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
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