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What the hell kind of source is that for the worldwide sales of U2's individual albums? Some guy in a U2 forum? Are you freaking kidding me? Sources like that just make wikipedia look like a joke. Get rid of them. 24.49.83.40 21:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This section is listed almost verbatim from
http://www.u2talk.com/bio.php. I think we need to rewrite it. Any takers?
Wikipedia brown
06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, that page is a copy of this page. This is all very confusing. Wikipedia brown 07:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
...Should the speaker use the singular voice ("U2 has released many successful albums...") or the plural voice ("U2 are predominantly Christian...")?
I am not sure what Wiki's stance on this issue is.
I went through the article line by line. I agree with much of 170.61.20.229 comments (why don’t you sign in???) and have left them in the article but the new heading regime is inappropriate. The first reason should be enough – it was previously ordered along albums and tours; factual and actual dates and events. The new edits base the article on less tangible “periods” (ie, “height of popularity). These might be FINE for a rock magazine, but not appropriate for an encyclopedia as wiki. Furthermore, many of the actual headings were highly POV, provided little material info and in places were arguably even incorrect. Ie, “Height of Popularity”. The new headings grouped the periods covering War and UF. Yet, the band themselves when grouping the periods puts Boy, October, War in the first period, the UF til 1989 in the next period. It could even be argued that they are POV, so best to stick to indisputable facts rather than debateable “periods”. I reinstated many links to the main album and tour articles that were recently removed. Having the “main article” links at the top of a section hopefully discourages editors from filling out this main U2 article with all the little details of an album of tour – rather, place them in the tour or album articles. This main article can only be a summary of albums, etc. -- Merbabu 03:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, here goes: I know that they're not Alternative Rock, because they really don't fit the bill for it. The problem with U2 is that they really aren't any genre, per se. When I put Alternative Rock there, it was kind of a general thing... They're alternative alternative. Or something like that. But they aren't pop, and they sure as heck aren't art rock. A good example of art rock would be Dark Side of the Moon, of which U2 shares no similarities. Bono said that U2 is a Folk band, perhaps we should put that in there somewhere. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:12 ( UTC)
Once again, U2's specific genre is post-punk. The band is heavily influenced by Joy Division/ New Order and Television. Bono even appears in the New Order documentary raving about the band; Quincy Jones also appears talking about how Bono once told him that New Order was their biggest influence. Allmusic.com classifies them as post-punk, as does Simon Reynolds' book Rip it Up and Start Again. I'm fine with the box listing "Rock, pop, post-punk". it's concise, accurate, and appropriate.
I really don't get calling them alternative rock, unless everything that got played on college radio in the 80's is considered alternative rock. Which has some merit, but isn't true. WesleyDodds 23:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I asked this question before but I think it went into the archives, so chances are no one is going to see it. Here it is again. I noticed that the Joshua Tree section of this article doesn't talk about any of the themes and the mood of JT, whereas the War and Boy sections go into some detail. Is it better to add info to the JT section or should we start merging some of the information from the War and Boy sections into the album's own articles? Since this article is already at 50kb, the latter may be more appropriate. It would be great to hear your thoughts, especially Merbabu and Kristbg, both of you have been doing really great work with this article. Wikipedia brown 19:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Really, a lot of these subheadings are unnecessary or redundant. We don't need a new heading when talking about an album in that albums section, for for every paragraph that talks about a new topic. Whenever I remove them, they keeping being added again. WesleyDodds 22:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with the way it is now, but somebody-seemingly the same person using dynamic IPs-keeps changing it back. Other than adding hidden text, which I already did, can anyone think of anything else we can do? -- 69.145.123.171 22:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the much-needed influence section described above, I've been attempting to do a bit of reading and research on U2's influences, which have obviously drastically changed with each new style of music the band has produced. Here are just a few quotes I found skimming through Bill Flanagan's excellent 1995 book U2 At the End of the World, one of U2's few biographers who clearly knows the band well:
I think the correct way to approach a section on influences is with direct, citable quotes from the band—U2 has such a long history that nearly any great artist may have had some influence on them, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a chronological list of their biggest influences. — McMillin24 contribs talk 06:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Was just browsing here and was struck by the large chunk of the band's early history from 1976 to 1984 being missing. Wisekwai 22:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a little controversy around the use of the word "occassional" in the first sentences. ALthough i reinstated after its removal a few days ago, i agree it is awkward, BUT strongly feel it is a necessary evil if we are to continute referring to Larry's "occassional" keyboard and backing vocals, and Bono's "occassional" harmonica. If the issue is the "clumbsiness" and "irrelevant" use of the word in the opening sentences, then wouldn't it make more sense to remove reference to the key-board playing, harmonica, etc???? That is what is clumsy and irrelevant. However, if they are to be included, then the article gives a poorly proportioned comment on the roles of the members; let's face facts: Bono is U2's singer, and Larry plays drums - their other performing duties are ancillary and insignificant. At best, Bono "plays" guitar 2 or 3 times a concert and this is the "extra" activity that has the strongest case for inclusion in the opening sentences. The others are indeed extremely rare: the hamonica was played in two songs, and the only time it's been played in the last 10 years was in the early legs only of the Vertigo tour (after a 10 year hiatus), Larry plays single-finger keyboard in 1-song on the current tour only, and his backing vocals are extremely rare (Numb). If we are to include Larry's keyboard and Bono's harmonica, then why not include tambourine (he "played" it occasionally during "Al Because of You") or Edge's bass playing and Adam's lead guitar during "40"???. -- Merbabu 05:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Two of the four members, The Edge and Adam Clayton, were both born in England and both are, as far as I'm aware, both British citizens, so I think that opening the article with "U2 is an Irish rock group" (bold added), with a link to the Republic of Ireland is misleading.
Have U2 collectively described themselves as Irish (in which case it should be sourced)? If not, would it not be better to call them either Anglo- Irish or Anglo- Irish? The Anglo-Irish article is naturally about the historical social and political groups so shouldn't be linked itself. Even if so, I think linking to the Republic of Ireland, a political entity, rather than Ireland, is no more than a case of a republican "claim" to them.
An alternative is to say "U2 is a rock band formed in Dublin, featuring...". I believe this was the consensus reached with AC/DC, which is similarly Scoto- Australian, formerly introduced simply as Australian. Tonyobrienuk 10:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Edge may have lived in Ireland since he was a baby, but he's not Irish. He has refused to take Irish citizenship. He's a British citizen, so the link going to the Republic of Ireland is plain wrong. Even if you have "been through this before", it should be changed to one of the four introductions I suggested above. Tonyobrienuk 07:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
It's true that citizenship and nationality are two different things. Citizenship is a matter of political fact and nationality is more a case of self-identification. Even if he has said (and I'm not aware of him doing so) that he self-identifies himself mostly as Irish, that still wouldn't justify a link to the Republic of Ireland, the political entity that he's not a citizen of. I'm not saying that U2 can't be called Irish if they self-identify as Irish. I'm saying you shouldn't link any Irish self-identification to the Republic of Ireland if one of them is a UK and not an ROI citizen, despite being easily qualified to be both (like Adam Clayton) or just an ROI citizen. Linking to the ROI is wrong and should be changed. I suggested four alternatives:
"U2 is an Anglo- Irish rock band" - reflecting their countries of citizenship.
"U2 is an Irish rock band" - reflecting possible self-identification, if The Edge does self-identify as Irish.
"U2 is an Anglo- Irish rock band" - reflecting their places of birth and possible self-identification, if The Edge doesn't self-identify as Irish.
"U2 is a rock band formed in Dublin" - reflecting where the band was formed and an alternative to any of these.
I suggest the last one because it's the least objectionable and follows the precedent set in other articles, notably the AC/DC one. Detailing matters of individual self-identification and citizenship also belong in each member's own article. Tonyobrienuk 09:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
While " Ireland" and " Republic of Ireland" may seem like very similar terms, they have extensive articles of their own and the distinction between them is great. While they may all self-identify with Irish culture, which is related to Ireland, they clearly don't all identify with the Republic of Ireland, as one member has refused to take up Irish citizenship, despite the fact that he's entitled to and it probably would be easier for him to have taken it as well. The Republic of Ireland is a country, of which not all members of U2 are citizens, and thus is the wrong article to link to. That's the case even if they do all identify with Ireland, which is an island home to two countries, of which only one is the Republic of Ireland. Linking to ROI smacks of POV "claiming" and is also, given that The Edge has very clearly made his allegiances known, wrong. I was under the impression that these things were undesirable, especially in biographies of living persons. Tonyobrienuk 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What, exactly, makes Sir Cliff Richard British? He was born in British India in 1940. While India is now a country in its own right, it was back then a British colony. While he may (he prefers not to entertain such speculation) have some Indian blood in him, he is mostly of British descent. He also has a British passport. In summary, he was born in British sovereign territory, is of British descent and is a British citizen. That's why we call him British, not because his family moved to the UK when he was a child.
The Edge was born in British sovereign territory, is of British descent and proudly holds a British passport. By the same logic, we call him British. That he and his parents have chosen to live in the Republic of Ireland doesn't make him any less British, especially since British citizens have all had right of abode in the Republic of Ireland (and vice versa) for decades.
If you wish to contend otherwise, please do go ahead and quote him (that is, not Bono) saying that he feels Irish, but that still wouldn't warrant any link to the Republic of Ireland, a country of which he's not, and never has been, a citizen. He's a citizen of the United Kingdom and, given that he could've handed in his British passport and taken Irish citizenship at any point in the last 40 years, clearly proud to be one. Linking to the Republic of Ireland is, therefore, not in the spirit of his request to remain a British citizen and not an Irish one, and thus should not be used to describe the entire band, certainly not as the first link in the entire article. Tonyobrienuk 16:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is that the reason Cliff Richard was born in Lucknow was that India was a British colony at the time. He would've been born either in the UK or in another British colony were India not one. He's not (at, at least, not significantly) of Indian descent and doesn't have Indian citizenship, which is why he's considered British rather than Indian. Fulfilling one of the three criteria I've mentioned does not determine nationality, and being born in a particular country is, while one of the easiest, is the weakest of the criteria. As Lord Wellington, who was born in Ireland to British parents and was a loyal British subject and is, again, almost universally considered British, said, "a man can be born in a stable, and yet not be an animal". The people you named are generally not considered British, not because they lived far away from the UK (in whatever form it took at the time) but because they didn't fulfil all the major criteria for most people's judges of nationality. When Kenya introduced Kenyan citizenship in 1967, Jomo Kenyatta became a Kenyan citizen. When India introduced Indian citizenship in 1955, Cliff Richard did not become an Indian citizen, and nor did The Edge when his family moved to the ROI. South Africa actually gained independence 8 years before Nelson Mandela was born. That aside, Kenyatta wasn't and Mandela isn't of British descent (they're of African descent, their dark complexion being a give-away), whereas Cliff Richard is. George Washington is more complex, given that he was a loyal British subject at a time before the American colonies were considered a nation in any sense, and long before the UK enacted proper citizenship laws. As a result, he is often described as British before the American Revolution but not after it. The fact that he is considered British before despite living in what is today the United States, thousands of miles from the UK proper, proves my point that living somewhere does not determine nationality. And that's notwithstanding the far greater ease of living where one chooses today than it was 250 years ago when Washington was a loyal British person.
In summary:
Born in UK sovereign territory? | Of British ancestry? | British citizenship? | Therefore British? | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Nelson Mandela | No | No | No | No |
Jomo Kenyatta | Yes | No | No | No |
George Washington | Yes | Yes | Before Revolution | Before Revolution |
Cliff Richard | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
The Edge | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Understand? Good. Now we've got that out of the way, I reiterate that any association with Ireland, as may or may not be the case (as I am completely unfamiliar with that quote - do you have a link?), does not change the fact that The Edge is a loyal citizen of the United Kingdom, and would rather be one than a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. We should respect his wish to be known as a British subject and thus refrain from linking to the Republic of Ireland article right at the beginning of this article as it violates all of the major guidelines on biographies of living persons. I therefore provided several alternatives, and there are many more that might be considered (like "U2 is an Irish rock band"). I do appreciate that the use of the term "Anglo-Irish" may be confusing given its historical social meaning. It is for this reason that I offered alternatives to it. However, it is still a valid description of something that is both English or British and Irish at the same time, and I did address this point previously. Furthermore, I will remind you again that the current introduction is wrong. The only reason that I haven't replaced it already with my best suggested version is because I wishes to attain a consensus about what it should be changed to, not whether or not it should be changed. I did propose that the article begin "U2 are a rock band formed in Dublin" to avoid such discourse about the varying citizenship and/or nationality of such members, as it avoids the issue completely, and will accept it as default if there is no such consensus. Tonyobrienuk 19:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is closed. The article calls them what they are: an Irish band.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
21:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the issue is closed, actually.
The Edge could have taken Irish citizenship and cut all ties with the UK, and spending almost the entirity of his life in the ROI one might've thought that would have been the easy way out, but, in what can only be reasoned as a show of loyalty, has chosen not to, so I'll thank you not to cut those ties for him.
My problem is not with them being called an Irish band if, indeed, they all do self-identify as Irish (that was one of my four suggestions, after all), which is yet to be demonstrated, but with the link to the Republic of Ireland in the very first line when some members aren't from or citizens of the country, and the sources you've provided don't even mention the Republic of Ireland, so could mean anything when they describe U2 as "Irish". For example, the terms "Irish rock band" or "Irish band", which I'm fine using if it removes any political connotations, can mean a band that plays Irish rock, as U2 do, or it can mean that the band is, in some way, Irish, but there's no mention of the Republic of Ireland so there's no validation of the current situation. Claiming that being Irish means being related to the Republic of Ireland, rather than being related to Ireland or to any number of Irish things that are older than Irish republicanism, like Irish music, is what's POV and should be removed not only to be NPOV but to reflect the wishes of The Edge in remaining a British citizen, even if he has said at some time or another that he feels Irish. The use of the word "Irish" is not the issue, as I have now explained several times.
As for my so-called misunderstanding, I used the term "subject" when describing The Edge casually, not technically, and in casual parlance the term "subject" can be used perfectly well to describe any citizen of a monarchy. Just ask your friends at the BBC or Globe and Mail. I remind yourself that I wouldn't resort to being so casual in writing if you hadn't required me to repeat myself several times. One might comment just as pointlessly and snarkily that you saying that The Edge can't be loyal if he doesn't pay taxes to Her Majesty the Queen "speaks volumes" of your knowledge of the taxation system and concept of loyalty since taxation is paid to HM Revenue and Customs, not Her Majesty the Queen, whose loyalty is hardly in doubt despite not making out cheques to herself. However, there's no need for ad hominem remarks when you know full well that discussions of such issues are irrelevant. Tonyobrienuk 00:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not about them being described as an Irish band. You have proved yourself intransigent despite my pointing it out many times, which I assume is deliberate because I have made this so clear. Tonyobrienuk 04:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Several of my suggestions included the word "Irish", so you're wrong to say I'm opposed to using that word altogether. I am opposed to linking to the Republic of Ireland for the reasons given above (that you haven't refuted) and thus believe that the current version, which does link to the ROI, should be changed.
I propose the version to which I changed it, and from which you reverted it, if no consensus to what it should be changed is reached. That's because such wording is the least objectionable of the options and because the articles of many other bands with members of different birth and nationality begin like that. I have explained this all before. It avoids having to judge what sources are valid or not to ensure maximum NPOV, it avoids republicans trawling for pages linking to Ireland and changing it back to the ROI without bothering to appreciate that it was changed for a very good reason and it is indisputable and thus non-divisive. Nor could it possibly be construed as my OR or POV since these things (that they're a rock band and that they were formed in Dublin) are already stated elsewhere in the article.
If you disagree with it being changed from a link to the ROI, say why and we can have a discussion. If you don't, say what you want it to be changed to. If you don't, I will change it again.
And, because you asked, I've edited pages before as an unregistered member. However, since I wanted to raise this specific point in talk, don't have a static IP and think talk edits should be signed and stamped, I signed up. Tonyobrienuk 05:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
No, you still don't get it. Here you go again saying "U2 are an Irish band" and citing all sorts of people that describe them as such. I don't have a problem with them being called an Irish band. However, "every book, every broadcast organisation, every newspaper, the President of the United States, his precedessor [sic], NME, the BBC, Hot Press, VH1, MTV etc etc etc" do call them Irish, but they don't have the link tags that Wikipedia does. "Irish" can mean several things, and "Irish band" even more. One of the meanings of "Irish" is "of the Republic of Ireland", something to which I object being used in this article because of the split citizenship and nationality of the members. Claiming that any description of them as Irish must mean "of the Republic of Ireland" is POV and, in this case, wrong. They may well be described as an Irish band, but that does not justify the link to the Republic of Ireland that currently exists in the first sentence. I shouldn't have to explain it this many times for you to understand.
Now maybe you want the word "Irish" to be used in there: that's fine. Would "U2 are an Irish rock band", which avoids the link to the ROI but retains context and the word "Irish", be better than the one to which I changed it? Tonyobrienuk 05:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It just occured to me that if we went with TonyUK's suggestion of "U2 were formed in Dublin", some bright spark will go and put Dublin, Republic of Ireland. Which is exactly what he doesn't want. As for this argument, of all the things to worry about - lol -- Merbabu 06:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'm fine with it being Dublin, Republic of Ireland because Dublin is the capital of the Republic of Ireland and that is the only country it is in. U2's members come from, have their family roots in and are citizens of two different countries, so I think naming only one of these is wrong. I just don't think the "Republic of Ireland" bit (or just "Ireland", as it is in many articles) is necessary.
Incidentally, I'd like to think that you didn't omit my surname ( O'Brien) from my username but leave in my country (the UK) in order to make me sound more partial. If it is the case, I'd rather you didn't. Tonyobrienuk 06:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
One final point. Apparently, The Edge moved here when he was 1 years of age, and later married his secondary school girlfriend, Aislinn O Sullivan. Apparently, also, Adam Clayton moved here when he was 5 years of age. If that's as "English" as the band gets then this entire debate is obviously a non sequitur. El Gringo 13:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
A bit silly. Of course U2 is an Irish band. Phone them up and ask! Or try Google, that way is easier! MelForbes 15:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thank you, we've all been over this many, many times before. Everyone agrees U2 are Irish, but people clearly don't agree what the word "Irish" means. My argument is that the word "Irish" linking to the Republic of Ireland, when two members aren't from the ROI, nor are their parents and nor is one of their passports, is wrong. Of the alternatives I proposed, most of them include the word "Irish", so can we please just stop citing sources that call them Irish and say either why we think it shouldn't be changed or say what we think it should be changed to? It's really, really simple. Tonyobrienuk 18:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as I've seen, "Irish" almost always links to Ireland, and all "Irish X" articles are about the whole of Ireland too. As such, I was under the impression that the difference between Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was to be made clear, the opposite of what you appear to be saying. If it isn't, surely all that does is make something like "U2 is a rock band from Dublin", which avoids the issue altogether, more clearly the best choice. Tonyobrienuk 00:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Tony, your reasoning is very confusing - never let it be said that more words makes things clearer! Are you concerned over the use of "ROI" and would rather see the more general "Irish" used? Or are you debating whether they actually are Irish. What i find to be "really, really simple" is the fact that all members have grown up in Irish Dublin, in the ROI, lived there adult lives there, have their families (parents, spouses, children) there and Irishness is the biggest national or cultural identity influence on them. Compared to all this, what it actually says in their passports or the location of their maternity ward is may be a factual distinction, but is irrelevant.
Furthermore, the article states that the BAND is Irish. It certainly not does not have a British passport, was not born in Wales, and its parents are not English. It was formed, spent 30 years in Dublin, and looks set to continue like that. By the way, Dublin is in the ROI, but i can accept "Irish" also - just don't go calling it Anglo-Irish.
As for your table, you forgot to include a feild for where the person spent most of their life. This is the dominant factor and would make Edge's case in line with Mandela's in your example. (people have all sorts of reasons for keeping their birth passport and i know many immigrants who would punch you if you suggested they are not a member of their new country). -- Merbabu 01:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
When one member of the band has made it absolutely clear that they would rather be known as a British citizen than an Irish citizen, I think that the link to the Republic of Ireland (and not the UK), is disrespectful of this wish and thus is a violation of the guidelines for writing biographies of living persons.
Furthermore, the word "Irish" has several different meanings, of which "of the Republic of Ireland" is one. The convention that "Irish" does not by default mean "of the Republic of Ireland" in Wikipedia is made clear by the fact that relevant articles like Irish people include people from both the ROI and the UK. However U2 might be described as Irish by news sources doesn't make it clear what definition they mean. Assuming that it means "of the Republic of Ireland" is POV, pushing an agenda of the ROI monopolising all uses of the word "Ireland" like the one El Gringo was trying to push (below). Using sources calling them Irish to argue that a link to the ROI is justified is also a reinterpretation of other's words and could be construed as OR, which is also prohibited.
Technically the band could be described as Anglo-Irish. While British-Irish is becoming the more common term, Anglo-Irish is still a valid adjective for something that is part British or English and part Irish, like the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It's not really the issue, because I was never going to propose using the term myself, but it is another case of you all concerning yourselves with the wrong definition despite my repeated clarifications.
I didn't forget to include a field for where people live. I deliberately excluded it for a reason I've given before but will repeat again: it's not one of the ways people judge nationality. Living in a country doesn't affect your nationality much, and not at all if there is a right of abode for that person in the country. Living in Dublin is not a reflection of The Edge being Irish. Indeed, he lives there because, as British citizens, he and his parents always had that right to live in the ROI. When they moved to Dublin, they weren't giving up any part of their or their son's nationality but in fact exercising a right that their British citizenship uniquely granted them.
As for your unreasonable and violent immigrant friends, there would be an easier, and far more legal, way of proving that they're Irish if they want to: getting an Irish passport. Someone who would rather keep a Polish passport than an Irish one hasn't really committed themselves to being a "member of their new country", have they? The Edge could've gotten an Irish passport at any time in his adult life. The fact that he hasn't speaks volumes for his own perception of his nationality. If he considered himself an Irish national, rather than a British national whose right as a British national it is to live in the Republic of Ireland, he wouldn't have repeatedly renewed his British citizenship. Tonyobrienuk 06:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
PS, Tony, i think you better get your stories straight. IN the section below you said on the 13th you are not objecting to them being called Irish. Yet today (16th) you are arguing that Edge is not Irish. Come on. It is clear you are just playing games. Game Over. "Anyone who brings up them being "Irish" again, when I've said God knows how many times that I'm not complaining about them being called Irish but with the word "Irish" having a link to the ROI, can only be assumed to be deliberately intransigent. Tonyobrienuk 15:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)"
When Bono was asked about whether The Edge would give up his British citizenship or take
dual citizenship, he said "Edge is more turn-of-the-century, H G Wells era and very British in his way. Edge wouldn't". I'm not saying that The Edge doesn't have some kind of allegiance to the ROI. However, as strong as that allegiance may be, his allegiance to the UK is stronger, which is why he would prefer to remain a British citizen and not an Irish one. You are, of course, correct in saying that there are many reasons to hold onto a certain citizenship, but there are also many reasons to live in a country even with no intent of becoming a citizen of it. Musicians pay no tax in the ROI, whereas musicians in the UK do. The fact that he'd be millions of Euros worse off, if a member of U2 at all since he would be living far from the other members of the band, might have something to do with him remaining in a country he doesn't want to be a citizen of, but it has nothing to do with being Irish or British.
Linking to the Republic of Ireland relates to a political entity and infers something of the band's political allegiances. A (non-constructed) band itself can't have allegiances: only the members can. When a member has made it clear that his political allegiance doesn't lie with the ROI, it's wrong to link to it anyway. You can't say that the band is Irish without saying something about the members' own relationships with the ROI.
The issue isn't being discussed in the The Edge article's own talk page because I don't object to that article. The Edge article doesn't call him Irish, and when it calls U2 an Irish band, it doesn't link to the Republic of Ireland, the two things I might possibly object to.
I should point out, because you've clearly got the wrong idea (evidently deliberately), that the "them" I say I don't mind being called Irish means U2 collectively. Whether or not The Edge is considered "Irish" or U2 are collectively considered "Irish", as fun diversions as they are, it would still be wrong to link to the Republic of Ireland, which does not hold a monopoly over all uses of the word "Irish". This has been my position throughout. Sorry, Merbabu's ego. Tonyobrienuk 00:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
If I go over to Britain in the morning and start working with a British company the company doesn't become Irish just because I'm with them. Granada Television is not Irish, even though Gerry Robinson from Donegal has been the principal cause of its rapid success. Similarly British Airways has not become Irish because Willie Walsh has taken over at the top. At any rate, a quick Google of "U2" and "We are an Irish band" reveals this remark by one Paul Hewson in the introduction to 'Bad': "We are an Irish band, we come from Dublin City, Ireland. As with all cities it has its good and it has its bad...this is a song called Bad..." That's that settled, then. El Gringo 13:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind me responding to both your edits together, because they're clearly making the same point.
Firstly, no, that's not as English as the band gets. That's not even as British as it gets. The Edge was not only born in the UK, but has British parents and has a British passport. He lives in the ROI, but only because British people have had the right to do so all this time. That is, him living in the ROI doesn't say anything about his nationality. His passport, parentage and place of birth, on the other hand, do, and they're all British.
As for your analogy of companies, I don't think it's particularly valid. A single employee, even the CEO, is a tiny proportion of the workforce of a company and, besides, different indicators are used to judge the nationality of a company than a band or an individual. Where they're based is far more important than the nationality their workforce, CEO or founder in this respect. A company can't hop on a plane or boat and go to another country never to return, unlike a person. There is also an issue of ownership and there are certain formal registration processes that tie them to certain countries. With a band, formally, you can only go by their citizenship, and in U2's case that's split between the UK and ROI.
Finally, your quote of Bono's doesn't prove anything about links to the ROI. I'm not contesting that they may describe themselves as Irish, but that the meaning of "Irish" in such a context is not "of the Republic of Ireland" but "of Ireland". What might be more telling than Bono calling U2 an Irish band is that he left it ambiguous by saying "Ireland" rather than "Republic of Ireland". I am fine with them being called an Irish band. However, when the loyalty of its members is split between the ROI and UK, linking to the ROI only is wrong for the reasons already given.
Anyone who brings up them being "Irish" again, when I've said God knows how many times that I'm not complaining about them being called Irish but with the word "Irish" having a link to the ROI, can only be assumed to be deliberately intransigent. Tonyobrienuk 15:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
There's no ambiquity about Ireland. It is the name of a country which occupies the entirety of an island between America and Europe. It is composed of 32 counties, six of which are currently under British occupation. The country is inhabitated by Irish people. Strangely enough, these people tend to describe themselves as Irish people from Ireland. The tautology implicit in this self-definition is designed to elucidate their identity for even the most cerebrally challenged of God's creatures. I trust this clarifies matters. El Gringo 16:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Lol. Well there you go: your position is an extreme POV that the great majority of people reject. Even the articles you link disagree with your statements in their entirity. Tonyobrienuk 16:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The "great majority" of people in your local Conservative and Unionist Party branch are of little concern to me, or to the rest of the civilised world. Meanwhile, in the real world, and as crazy as it sounds, Irish people continue to come from Ireland. Life doesn't get any more weird, eh. And here's a dictionary; use it, please use it: www.m-w.com. Thank you. El Gringo 17:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not only the Conservative Party that disagrees with Northern Ireland being a part of the Republic of Ireland that's occupied by the UK. The great majority of the world disagrees, including countries with large populations of Irish people. No government recognises any claim of the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland, not even the Republic of Ireland itself. When I say "Ireland", I mean the subject of the Ireland article, believe it or not, not the Republic of Ireland, which has its own article and the distinction from which is the entire purpose of this discussion. There is no reason why anyone should pay any attention to your extreme fringe POV. Tonyobrienuk 17:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for your troubles. Slán. El Gringo 17:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm here, I don't know why there's controversy about this. Surely some U2 fan (as in fanatic) could confirm the following. I heard Bono on TV years ago explaining the origin of the band's name. He said it means "the music that you too want to listen to'. Pompous nonsense, in my view. But that is, verbatim, what the man said. El Gringo 13:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Quote from U2faqs.com. I think the "variety of connotations" would be the unemployment form being the reason for taking the name, followed by the U2 spy plane as a happy coincidence that gave it broader appeal, but there's no concrete evidence for that. The "you too" theory sounds like sentimental retroactivity rather than a plausible theory, but it's obviously still worth going with if it's verifiable. Tonyobrienuk 16:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Have U2 ever actually played in Africa? I've been trying to think of all the bands that have toured all six continents, so far Bob Marley is the only one (and probably the first).
I thought there were only 5 continents ? ( Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia / Oceania ) Some would argue however that there is 7 continents. If so you can add South America ( North America and South America are two different continents in this case ) and Antarctica.
There must be many bands who has toured all continents. Norwegian rock band a-ha for instance, has toured Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, North America and Australia ( Mortyman )
Because Wikipedia is contributed to worldwide by users who use a wide variety of types of English and dating, Wikipedia adopted a simple rule for content.
In the case of U2, as the band is Irish, that means that the article has to use
International English is largely based on British English so it means that in effect this article should not use American English spelling and grammar.
International Dating takes the form dd/mm/yyyy, unlike American Dating, which uses mm/dd/yyyy, or ISO which uses yyyy/mm/dd. As it is an Irish topic this article has to use dates in the form 2 April 1970 (with no comma) not April 2, 1970 which is called American dating.
Finally, footnotes follow standard grammatical rules. That means that at the end of the sentence they come after, not before, a full stop or comma. So the reference should be written as text.<ref>footnote text</ref> not text<ref>footnote text</ref>.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
THis section is a mess. Way too long, rambles with insignificant, speculative and unreferenced statements. Personally, i think the value of its inclusion at all in an encyclopedia is dubious given it's speculative nature. I recommend:
-- Merbabu 23:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Glad to be at hand. Anyways, probably some of this information needn't to be scrapped. I think that some of the Other projects paragraph can be really used into individual bandmembers pages. The tour and album info also should be put into the respective pages. I put 1978 because I think this was the year, when they actually signed contract and started producing music under that particular moniker and undertook the career of professional musicians. That was my point for putting it.
Anyways, I think that's... really an article. It was a mess before, now it looks more like a... full-fledged and potential article. Still some work to do (some other time, as it's time to sleep) but yet again I think we are on the right way. Glad to be on board:
The category Category:Christian musical groups has been placed on this page. I removed it but the editor who placed it there insists U2 is a "Christian Band". This is incorrect:
What do others think? -- Merbabu 04:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: The article Christian Rock mentions U2 and others with openly Christian(-like) beliefs - but suggests this is an incorrect categorisation. U2 and the others mentioned are not listed on any of the appropriate Christian rock or music cats. Some artists such as U2, Lifehouse, Creed, Sufjan Stevens, King's X, Thrice, Evanescence, Mute Math, Coldplay, Blessid Union of Souls, and Switchfoot do not claim to be "Christian bands", but include members who openly profess to be Christians and feature Christian thought, imagery, scripture or other influences in their music. There is a tendency among some Christian rock music fans to label rock music bands as Christian where their lyrics are seen as consistent with the fans' understanding of Christian belief, but this is generally not accepted by the contemporary Christian music industry. -- Merbabu 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
What the fuck?
U2 - Christian rock band? The band of Eric Cartman Faith+1 is a Christian rock band. Not U2.
STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH:
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What the hell kind of source is that for the worldwide sales of U2's individual albums? Some guy in a U2 forum? Are you freaking kidding me? Sources like that just make wikipedia look like a joke. Get rid of them. 24.49.83.40 21:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This section is listed almost verbatim from
http://www.u2talk.com/bio.php. I think we need to rewrite it. Any takers?
Wikipedia brown
06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, that page is a copy of this page. This is all very confusing. Wikipedia brown 07:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
...Should the speaker use the singular voice ("U2 has released many successful albums...") or the plural voice ("U2 are predominantly Christian...")?
I am not sure what Wiki's stance on this issue is.
I went through the article line by line. I agree with much of 170.61.20.229 comments (why don’t you sign in???) and have left them in the article but the new heading regime is inappropriate. The first reason should be enough – it was previously ordered along albums and tours; factual and actual dates and events. The new edits base the article on less tangible “periods” (ie, “height of popularity). These might be FINE for a rock magazine, but not appropriate for an encyclopedia as wiki. Furthermore, many of the actual headings were highly POV, provided little material info and in places were arguably even incorrect. Ie, “Height of Popularity”. The new headings grouped the periods covering War and UF. Yet, the band themselves when grouping the periods puts Boy, October, War in the first period, the UF til 1989 in the next period. It could even be argued that they are POV, so best to stick to indisputable facts rather than debateable “periods”. I reinstated many links to the main album and tour articles that were recently removed. Having the “main article” links at the top of a section hopefully discourages editors from filling out this main U2 article with all the little details of an album of tour – rather, place them in the tour or album articles. This main article can only be a summary of albums, etc. -- Merbabu 03:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, here goes: I know that they're not Alternative Rock, because they really don't fit the bill for it. The problem with U2 is that they really aren't any genre, per se. When I put Alternative Rock there, it was kind of a general thing... They're alternative alternative. Or something like that. But they aren't pop, and they sure as heck aren't art rock. A good example of art rock would be Dark Side of the Moon, of which U2 shares no similarities. Bono said that U2 is a Folk band, perhaps we should put that in there somewhere. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:12 ( UTC)
Once again, U2's specific genre is post-punk. The band is heavily influenced by Joy Division/ New Order and Television. Bono even appears in the New Order documentary raving about the band; Quincy Jones also appears talking about how Bono once told him that New Order was their biggest influence. Allmusic.com classifies them as post-punk, as does Simon Reynolds' book Rip it Up and Start Again. I'm fine with the box listing "Rock, pop, post-punk". it's concise, accurate, and appropriate.
I really don't get calling them alternative rock, unless everything that got played on college radio in the 80's is considered alternative rock. Which has some merit, but isn't true. WesleyDodds 23:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I asked this question before but I think it went into the archives, so chances are no one is going to see it. Here it is again. I noticed that the Joshua Tree section of this article doesn't talk about any of the themes and the mood of JT, whereas the War and Boy sections go into some detail. Is it better to add info to the JT section or should we start merging some of the information from the War and Boy sections into the album's own articles? Since this article is already at 50kb, the latter may be more appropriate. It would be great to hear your thoughts, especially Merbabu and Kristbg, both of you have been doing really great work with this article. Wikipedia brown 19:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Really, a lot of these subheadings are unnecessary or redundant. We don't need a new heading when talking about an album in that albums section, for for every paragraph that talks about a new topic. Whenever I remove them, they keeping being added again. WesleyDodds 22:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with the way it is now, but somebody-seemingly the same person using dynamic IPs-keeps changing it back. Other than adding hidden text, which I already did, can anyone think of anything else we can do? -- 69.145.123.171 22:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the much-needed influence section described above, I've been attempting to do a bit of reading and research on U2's influences, which have obviously drastically changed with each new style of music the band has produced. Here are just a few quotes I found skimming through Bill Flanagan's excellent 1995 book U2 At the End of the World, one of U2's few biographers who clearly knows the band well:
I think the correct way to approach a section on influences is with direct, citable quotes from the band—U2 has such a long history that nearly any great artist may have had some influence on them, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a chronological list of their biggest influences. — McMillin24 contribs talk 06:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Was just browsing here and was struck by the large chunk of the band's early history from 1976 to 1984 being missing. Wisekwai 22:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a little controversy around the use of the word "occassional" in the first sentences. ALthough i reinstated after its removal a few days ago, i agree it is awkward, BUT strongly feel it is a necessary evil if we are to continute referring to Larry's "occassional" keyboard and backing vocals, and Bono's "occassional" harmonica. If the issue is the "clumbsiness" and "irrelevant" use of the word in the opening sentences, then wouldn't it make more sense to remove reference to the key-board playing, harmonica, etc???? That is what is clumsy and irrelevant. However, if they are to be included, then the article gives a poorly proportioned comment on the roles of the members; let's face facts: Bono is U2's singer, and Larry plays drums - their other performing duties are ancillary and insignificant. At best, Bono "plays" guitar 2 or 3 times a concert and this is the "extra" activity that has the strongest case for inclusion in the opening sentences. The others are indeed extremely rare: the hamonica was played in two songs, and the only time it's been played in the last 10 years was in the early legs only of the Vertigo tour (after a 10 year hiatus), Larry plays single-finger keyboard in 1-song on the current tour only, and his backing vocals are extremely rare (Numb). If we are to include Larry's keyboard and Bono's harmonica, then why not include tambourine (he "played" it occasionally during "Al Because of You") or Edge's bass playing and Adam's lead guitar during "40"???. -- Merbabu 05:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Two of the four members, The Edge and Adam Clayton, were both born in England and both are, as far as I'm aware, both British citizens, so I think that opening the article with "U2 is an Irish rock group" (bold added), with a link to the Republic of Ireland is misleading.
Have U2 collectively described themselves as Irish (in which case it should be sourced)? If not, would it not be better to call them either Anglo- Irish or Anglo- Irish? The Anglo-Irish article is naturally about the historical social and political groups so shouldn't be linked itself. Even if so, I think linking to the Republic of Ireland, a political entity, rather than Ireland, is no more than a case of a republican "claim" to them.
An alternative is to say "U2 is a rock band formed in Dublin, featuring...". I believe this was the consensus reached with AC/DC, which is similarly Scoto- Australian, formerly introduced simply as Australian. Tonyobrienuk 10:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Edge may have lived in Ireland since he was a baby, but he's not Irish. He has refused to take Irish citizenship. He's a British citizen, so the link going to the Republic of Ireland is plain wrong. Even if you have "been through this before", it should be changed to one of the four introductions I suggested above. Tonyobrienuk 07:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
It's true that citizenship and nationality are two different things. Citizenship is a matter of political fact and nationality is more a case of self-identification. Even if he has said (and I'm not aware of him doing so) that he self-identifies himself mostly as Irish, that still wouldn't justify a link to the Republic of Ireland, the political entity that he's not a citizen of. I'm not saying that U2 can't be called Irish if they self-identify as Irish. I'm saying you shouldn't link any Irish self-identification to the Republic of Ireland if one of them is a UK and not an ROI citizen, despite being easily qualified to be both (like Adam Clayton) or just an ROI citizen. Linking to the ROI is wrong and should be changed. I suggested four alternatives:
"U2 is an Anglo- Irish rock band" - reflecting their countries of citizenship.
"U2 is an Irish rock band" - reflecting possible self-identification, if The Edge does self-identify as Irish.
"U2 is an Anglo- Irish rock band" - reflecting their places of birth and possible self-identification, if The Edge doesn't self-identify as Irish.
"U2 is a rock band formed in Dublin" - reflecting where the band was formed and an alternative to any of these.
I suggest the last one because it's the least objectionable and follows the precedent set in other articles, notably the AC/DC one. Detailing matters of individual self-identification and citizenship also belong in each member's own article. Tonyobrienuk 09:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
While " Ireland" and " Republic of Ireland" may seem like very similar terms, they have extensive articles of their own and the distinction between them is great. While they may all self-identify with Irish culture, which is related to Ireland, they clearly don't all identify with the Republic of Ireland, as one member has refused to take up Irish citizenship, despite the fact that he's entitled to and it probably would be easier for him to have taken it as well. The Republic of Ireland is a country, of which not all members of U2 are citizens, and thus is the wrong article to link to. That's the case even if they do all identify with Ireland, which is an island home to two countries, of which only one is the Republic of Ireland. Linking to ROI smacks of POV "claiming" and is also, given that The Edge has very clearly made his allegiances known, wrong. I was under the impression that these things were undesirable, especially in biographies of living persons. Tonyobrienuk 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What, exactly, makes Sir Cliff Richard British? He was born in British India in 1940. While India is now a country in its own right, it was back then a British colony. While he may (he prefers not to entertain such speculation) have some Indian blood in him, he is mostly of British descent. He also has a British passport. In summary, he was born in British sovereign territory, is of British descent and is a British citizen. That's why we call him British, not because his family moved to the UK when he was a child.
The Edge was born in British sovereign territory, is of British descent and proudly holds a British passport. By the same logic, we call him British. That he and his parents have chosen to live in the Republic of Ireland doesn't make him any less British, especially since British citizens have all had right of abode in the Republic of Ireland (and vice versa) for decades.
If you wish to contend otherwise, please do go ahead and quote him (that is, not Bono) saying that he feels Irish, but that still wouldn't warrant any link to the Republic of Ireland, a country of which he's not, and never has been, a citizen. He's a citizen of the United Kingdom and, given that he could've handed in his British passport and taken Irish citizenship at any point in the last 40 years, clearly proud to be one. Linking to the Republic of Ireland is, therefore, not in the spirit of his request to remain a British citizen and not an Irish one, and thus should not be used to describe the entire band, certainly not as the first link in the entire article. Tonyobrienuk 16:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is that the reason Cliff Richard was born in Lucknow was that India was a British colony at the time. He would've been born either in the UK or in another British colony were India not one. He's not (at, at least, not significantly) of Indian descent and doesn't have Indian citizenship, which is why he's considered British rather than Indian. Fulfilling one of the three criteria I've mentioned does not determine nationality, and being born in a particular country is, while one of the easiest, is the weakest of the criteria. As Lord Wellington, who was born in Ireland to British parents and was a loyal British subject and is, again, almost universally considered British, said, "a man can be born in a stable, and yet not be an animal". The people you named are generally not considered British, not because they lived far away from the UK (in whatever form it took at the time) but because they didn't fulfil all the major criteria for most people's judges of nationality. When Kenya introduced Kenyan citizenship in 1967, Jomo Kenyatta became a Kenyan citizen. When India introduced Indian citizenship in 1955, Cliff Richard did not become an Indian citizen, and nor did The Edge when his family moved to the ROI. South Africa actually gained independence 8 years before Nelson Mandela was born. That aside, Kenyatta wasn't and Mandela isn't of British descent (they're of African descent, their dark complexion being a give-away), whereas Cliff Richard is. George Washington is more complex, given that he was a loyal British subject at a time before the American colonies were considered a nation in any sense, and long before the UK enacted proper citizenship laws. As a result, he is often described as British before the American Revolution but not after it. The fact that he is considered British before despite living in what is today the United States, thousands of miles from the UK proper, proves my point that living somewhere does not determine nationality. And that's notwithstanding the far greater ease of living where one chooses today than it was 250 years ago when Washington was a loyal British person.
In summary:
Born in UK sovereign territory? | Of British ancestry? | British citizenship? | Therefore British? | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Nelson Mandela | No | No | No | No |
Jomo Kenyatta | Yes | No | No | No |
George Washington | Yes | Yes | Before Revolution | Before Revolution |
Cliff Richard | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
The Edge | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Understand? Good. Now we've got that out of the way, I reiterate that any association with Ireland, as may or may not be the case (as I am completely unfamiliar with that quote - do you have a link?), does not change the fact that The Edge is a loyal citizen of the United Kingdom, and would rather be one than a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. We should respect his wish to be known as a British subject and thus refrain from linking to the Republic of Ireland article right at the beginning of this article as it violates all of the major guidelines on biographies of living persons. I therefore provided several alternatives, and there are many more that might be considered (like "U2 is an Irish rock band"). I do appreciate that the use of the term "Anglo-Irish" may be confusing given its historical social meaning. It is for this reason that I offered alternatives to it. However, it is still a valid description of something that is both English or British and Irish at the same time, and I did address this point previously. Furthermore, I will remind you again that the current introduction is wrong. The only reason that I haven't replaced it already with my best suggested version is because I wishes to attain a consensus about what it should be changed to, not whether or not it should be changed. I did propose that the article begin "U2 are a rock band formed in Dublin" to avoid such discourse about the varying citizenship and/or nationality of such members, as it avoids the issue completely, and will accept it as default if there is no such consensus. Tonyobrienuk 19:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is closed. The article calls them what they are: an Irish band.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
21:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the issue is closed, actually.
The Edge could have taken Irish citizenship and cut all ties with the UK, and spending almost the entirity of his life in the ROI one might've thought that would have been the easy way out, but, in what can only be reasoned as a show of loyalty, has chosen not to, so I'll thank you not to cut those ties for him.
My problem is not with them being called an Irish band if, indeed, they all do self-identify as Irish (that was one of my four suggestions, after all), which is yet to be demonstrated, but with the link to the Republic of Ireland in the very first line when some members aren't from or citizens of the country, and the sources you've provided don't even mention the Republic of Ireland, so could mean anything when they describe U2 as "Irish". For example, the terms "Irish rock band" or "Irish band", which I'm fine using if it removes any political connotations, can mean a band that plays Irish rock, as U2 do, or it can mean that the band is, in some way, Irish, but there's no mention of the Republic of Ireland so there's no validation of the current situation. Claiming that being Irish means being related to the Republic of Ireland, rather than being related to Ireland or to any number of Irish things that are older than Irish republicanism, like Irish music, is what's POV and should be removed not only to be NPOV but to reflect the wishes of The Edge in remaining a British citizen, even if he has said at some time or another that he feels Irish. The use of the word "Irish" is not the issue, as I have now explained several times.
As for my so-called misunderstanding, I used the term "subject" when describing The Edge casually, not technically, and in casual parlance the term "subject" can be used perfectly well to describe any citizen of a monarchy. Just ask your friends at the BBC or Globe and Mail. I remind yourself that I wouldn't resort to being so casual in writing if you hadn't required me to repeat myself several times. One might comment just as pointlessly and snarkily that you saying that The Edge can't be loyal if he doesn't pay taxes to Her Majesty the Queen "speaks volumes" of your knowledge of the taxation system and concept of loyalty since taxation is paid to HM Revenue and Customs, not Her Majesty the Queen, whose loyalty is hardly in doubt despite not making out cheques to herself. However, there's no need for ad hominem remarks when you know full well that discussions of such issues are irrelevant. Tonyobrienuk 00:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not about them being described as an Irish band. You have proved yourself intransigent despite my pointing it out many times, which I assume is deliberate because I have made this so clear. Tonyobrienuk 04:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Several of my suggestions included the word "Irish", so you're wrong to say I'm opposed to using that word altogether. I am opposed to linking to the Republic of Ireland for the reasons given above (that you haven't refuted) and thus believe that the current version, which does link to the ROI, should be changed.
I propose the version to which I changed it, and from which you reverted it, if no consensus to what it should be changed is reached. That's because such wording is the least objectionable of the options and because the articles of many other bands with members of different birth and nationality begin like that. I have explained this all before. It avoids having to judge what sources are valid or not to ensure maximum NPOV, it avoids republicans trawling for pages linking to Ireland and changing it back to the ROI without bothering to appreciate that it was changed for a very good reason and it is indisputable and thus non-divisive. Nor could it possibly be construed as my OR or POV since these things (that they're a rock band and that they were formed in Dublin) are already stated elsewhere in the article.
If you disagree with it being changed from a link to the ROI, say why and we can have a discussion. If you don't, say what you want it to be changed to. If you don't, I will change it again.
And, because you asked, I've edited pages before as an unregistered member. However, since I wanted to raise this specific point in talk, don't have a static IP and think talk edits should be signed and stamped, I signed up. Tonyobrienuk 05:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
No, you still don't get it. Here you go again saying "U2 are an Irish band" and citing all sorts of people that describe them as such. I don't have a problem with them being called an Irish band. However, "every book, every broadcast organisation, every newspaper, the President of the United States, his precedessor [sic], NME, the BBC, Hot Press, VH1, MTV etc etc etc" do call them Irish, but they don't have the link tags that Wikipedia does. "Irish" can mean several things, and "Irish band" even more. One of the meanings of "Irish" is "of the Republic of Ireland", something to which I object being used in this article because of the split citizenship and nationality of the members. Claiming that any description of them as Irish must mean "of the Republic of Ireland" is POV and, in this case, wrong. They may well be described as an Irish band, but that does not justify the link to the Republic of Ireland that currently exists in the first sentence. I shouldn't have to explain it this many times for you to understand.
Now maybe you want the word "Irish" to be used in there: that's fine. Would "U2 are an Irish rock band", which avoids the link to the ROI but retains context and the word "Irish", be better than the one to which I changed it? Tonyobrienuk 05:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It just occured to me that if we went with TonyUK's suggestion of "U2 were formed in Dublin", some bright spark will go and put Dublin, Republic of Ireland. Which is exactly what he doesn't want. As for this argument, of all the things to worry about - lol -- Merbabu 06:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'm fine with it being Dublin, Republic of Ireland because Dublin is the capital of the Republic of Ireland and that is the only country it is in. U2's members come from, have their family roots in and are citizens of two different countries, so I think naming only one of these is wrong. I just don't think the "Republic of Ireland" bit (or just "Ireland", as it is in many articles) is necessary.
Incidentally, I'd like to think that you didn't omit my surname ( O'Brien) from my username but leave in my country (the UK) in order to make me sound more partial. If it is the case, I'd rather you didn't. Tonyobrienuk 06:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
One final point. Apparently, The Edge moved here when he was 1 years of age, and later married his secondary school girlfriend, Aislinn O Sullivan. Apparently, also, Adam Clayton moved here when he was 5 years of age. If that's as "English" as the band gets then this entire debate is obviously a non sequitur. El Gringo 13:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
A bit silly. Of course U2 is an Irish band. Phone them up and ask! Or try Google, that way is easier! MelForbes 15:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thank you, we've all been over this many, many times before. Everyone agrees U2 are Irish, but people clearly don't agree what the word "Irish" means. My argument is that the word "Irish" linking to the Republic of Ireland, when two members aren't from the ROI, nor are their parents and nor is one of their passports, is wrong. Of the alternatives I proposed, most of them include the word "Irish", so can we please just stop citing sources that call them Irish and say either why we think it shouldn't be changed or say what we think it should be changed to? It's really, really simple. Tonyobrienuk 18:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as I've seen, "Irish" almost always links to Ireland, and all "Irish X" articles are about the whole of Ireland too. As such, I was under the impression that the difference between Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was to be made clear, the opposite of what you appear to be saying. If it isn't, surely all that does is make something like "U2 is a rock band from Dublin", which avoids the issue altogether, more clearly the best choice. Tonyobrienuk 00:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Tony, your reasoning is very confusing - never let it be said that more words makes things clearer! Are you concerned over the use of "ROI" and would rather see the more general "Irish" used? Or are you debating whether they actually are Irish. What i find to be "really, really simple" is the fact that all members have grown up in Irish Dublin, in the ROI, lived there adult lives there, have their families (parents, spouses, children) there and Irishness is the biggest national or cultural identity influence on them. Compared to all this, what it actually says in their passports or the location of their maternity ward is may be a factual distinction, but is irrelevant.
Furthermore, the article states that the BAND is Irish. It certainly not does not have a British passport, was not born in Wales, and its parents are not English. It was formed, spent 30 years in Dublin, and looks set to continue like that. By the way, Dublin is in the ROI, but i can accept "Irish" also - just don't go calling it Anglo-Irish.
As for your table, you forgot to include a feild for where the person spent most of their life. This is the dominant factor and would make Edge's case in line with Mandela's in your example. (people have all sorts of reasons for keeping their birth passport and i know many immigrants who would punch you if you suggested they are not a member of their new country). -- Merbabu 01:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
When one member of the band has made it absolutely clear that they would rather be known as a British citizen than an Irish citizen, I think that the link to the Republic of Ireland (and not the UK), is disrespectful of this wish and thus is a violation of the guidelines for writing biographies of living persons.
Furthermore, the word "Irish" has several different meanings, of which "of the Republic of Ireland" is one. The convention that "Irish" does not by default mean "of the Republic of Ireland" in Wikipedia is made clear by the fact that relevant articles like Irish people include people from both the ROI and the UK. However U2 might be described as Irish by news sources doesn't make it clear what definition they mean. Assuming that it means "of the Republic of Ireland" is POV, pushing an agenda of the ROI monopolising all uses of the word "Ireland" like the one El Gringo was trying to push (below). Using sources calling them Irish to argue that a link to the ROI is justified is also a reinterpretation of other's words and could be construed as OR, which is also prohibited.
Technically the band could be described as Anglo-Irish. While British-Irish is becoming the more common term, Anglo-Irish is still a valid adjective for something that is part British or English and part Irish, like the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It's not really the issue, because I was never going to propose using the term myself, but it is another case of you all concerning yourselves with the wrong definition despite my repeated clarifications.
I didn't forget to include a field for where people live. I deliberately excluded it for a reason I've given before but will repeat again: it's not one of the ways people judge nationality. Living in a country doesn't affect your nationality much, and not at all if there is a right of abode for that person in the country. Living in Dublin is not a reflection of The Edge being Irish. Indeed, he lives there because, as British citizens, he and his parents always had that right to live in the ROI. When they moved to Dublin, they weren't giving up any part of their or their son's nationality but in fact exercising a right that their British citizenship uniquely granted them.
As for your unreasonable and violent immigrant friends, there would be an easier, and far more legal, way of proving that they're Irish if they want to: getting an Irish passport. Someone who would rather keep a Polish passport than an Irish one hasn't really committed themselves to being a "member of their new country", have they? The Edge could've gotten an Irish passport at any time in his adult life. The fact that he hasn't speaks volumes for his own perception of his nationality. If he considered himself an Irish national, rather than a British national whose right as a British national it is to live in the Republic of Ireland, he wouldn't have repeatedly renewed his British citizenship. Tonyobrienuk 06:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
PS, Tony, i think you better get your stories straight. IN the section below you said on the 13th you are not objecting to them being called Irish. Yet today (16th) you are arguing that Edge is not Irish. Come on. It is clear you are just playing games. Game Over. "Anyone who brings up them being "Irish" again, when I've said God knows how many times that I'm not complaining about them being called Irish but with the word "Irish" having a link to the ROI, can only be assumed to be deliberately intransigent. Tonyobrienuk 15:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)"
When Bono was asked about whether The Edge would give up his British citizenship or take
dual citizenship, he said "Edge is more turn-of-the-century, H G Wells era and very British in his way. Edge wouldn't". I'm not saying that The Edge doesn't have some kind of allegiance to the ROI. However, as strong as that allegiance may be, his allegiance to the UK is stronger, which is why he would prefer to remain a British citizen and not an Irish one. You are, of course, correct in saying that there are many reasons to hold onto a certain citizenship, but there are also many reasons to live in a country even with no intent of becoming a citizen of it. Musicians pay no tax in the ROI, whereas musicians in the UK do. The fact that he'd be millions of Euros worse off, if a member of U2 at all since he would be living far from the other members of the band, might have something to do with him remaining in a country he doesn't want to be a citizen of, but it has nothing to do with being Irish or British.
Linking to the Republic of Ireland relates to a political entity and infers something of the band's political allegiances. A (non-constructed) band itself can't have allegiances: only the members can. When a member has made it clear that his political allegiance doesn't lie with the ROI, it's wrong to link to it anyway. You can't say that the band is Irish without saying something about the members' own relationships with the ROI.
The issue isn't being discussed in the The Edge article's own talk page because I don't object to that article. The Edge article doesn't call him Irish, and when it calls U2 an Irish band, it doesn't link to the Republic of Ireland, the two things I might possibly object to.
I should point out, because you've clearly got the wrong idea (evidently deliberately), that the "them" I say I don't mind being called Irish means U2 collectively. Whether or not The Edge is considered "Irish" or U2 are collectively considered "Irish", as fun diversions as they are, it would still be wrong to link to the Republic of Ireland, which does not hold a monopoly over all uses of the word "Irish". This has been my position throughout. Sorry, Merbabu's ego. Tonyobrienuk 00:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
If I go over to Britain in the morning and start working with a British company the company doesn't become Irish just because I'm with them. Granada Television is not Irish, even though Gerry Robinson from Donegal has been the principal cause of its rapid success. Similarly British Airways has not become Irish because Willie Walsh has taken over at the top. At any rate, a quick Google of "U2" and "We are an Irish band" reveals this remark by one Paul Hewson in the introduction to 'Bad': "We are an Irish band, we come from Dublin City, Ireland. As with all cities it has its good and it has its bad...this is a song called Bad..." That's that settled, then. El Gringo 13:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind me responding to both your edits together, because they're clearly making the same point.
Firstly, no, that's not as English as the band gets. That's not even as British as it gets. The Edge was not only born in the UK, but has British parents and has a British passport. He lives in the ROI, but only because British people have had the right to do so all this time. That is, him living in the ROI doesn't say anything about his nationality. His passport, parentage and place of birth, on the other hand, do, and they're all British.
As for your analogy of companies, I don't think it's particularly valid. A single employee, even the CEO, is a tiny proportion of the workforce of a company and, besides, different indicators are used to judge the nationality of a company than a band or an individual. Where they're based is far more important than the nationality their workforce, CEO or founder in this respect. A company can't hop on a plane or boat and go to another country never to return, unlike a person. There is also an issue of ownership and there are certain formal registration processes that tie them to certain countries. With a band, formally, you can only go by their citizenship, and in U2's case that's split between the UK and ROI.
Finally, your quote of Bono's doesn't prove anything about links to the ROI. I'm not contesting that they may describe themselves as Irish, but that the meaning of "Irish" in such a context is not "of the Republic of Ireland" but "of Ireland". What might be more telling than Bono calling U2 an Irish band is that he left it ambiguous by saying "Ireland" rather than "Republic of Ireland". I am fine with them being called an Irish band. However, when the loyalty of its members is split between the ROI and UK, linking to the ROI only is wrong for the reasons already given.
Anyone who brings up them being "Irish" again, when I've said God knows how many times that I'm not complaining about them being called Irish but with the word "Irish" having a link to the ROI, can only be assumed to be deliberately intransigent. Tonyobrienuk 15:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
There's no ambiquity about Ireland. It is the name of a country which occupies the entirety of an island between America and Europe. It is composed of 32 counties, six of which are currently under British occupation. The country is inhabitated by Irish people. Strangely enough, these people tend to describe themselves as Irish people from Ireland. The tautology implicit in this self-definition is designed to elucidate their identity for even the most cerebrally challenged of God's creatures. I trust this clarifies matters. El Gringo 16:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Lol. Well there you go: your position is an extreme POV that the great majority of people reject. Even the articles you link disagree with your statements in their entirity. Tonyobrienuk 16:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The "great majority" of people in your local Conservative and Unionist Party branch are of little concern to me, or to the rest of the civilised world. Meanwhile, in the real world, and as crazy as it sounds, Irish people continue to come from Ireland. Life doesn't get any more weird, eh. And here's a dictionary; use it, please use it: www.m-w.com. Thank you. El Gringo 17:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not only the Conservative Party that disagrees with Northern Ireland being a part of the Republic of Ireland that's occupied by the UK. The great majority of the world disagrees, including countries with large populations of Irish people. No government recognises any claim of the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland, not even the Republic of Ireland itself. When I say "Ireland", I mean the subject of the Ireland article, believe it or not, not the Republic of Ireland, which has its own article and the distinction from which is the entire purpose of this discussion. There is no reason why anyone should pay any attention to your extreme fringe POV. Tonyobrienuk 17:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry for your troubles. Slán. El Gringo 17:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
While I'm here, I don't know why there's controversy about this. Surely some U2 fan (as in fanatic) could confirm the following. I heard Bono on TV years ago explaining the origin of the band's name. He said it means "the music that you too want to listen to'. Pompous nonsense, in my view. But that is, verbatim, what the man said. El Gringo 13:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Quote from U2faqs.com. I think the "variety of connotations" would be the unemployment form being the reason for taking the name, followed by the U2 spy plane as a happy coincidence that gave it broader appeal, but there's no concrete evidence for that. The "you too" theory sounds like sentimental retroactivity rather than a plausible theory, but it's obviously still worth going with if it's verifiable. Tonyobrienuk 16:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Have U2 ever actually played in Africa? I've been trying to think of all the bands that have toured all six continents, so far Bob Marley is the only one (and probably the first).
I thought there were only 5 continents ? ( Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia / Oceania ) Some would argue however that there is 7 continents. If so you can add South America ( North America and South America are two different continents in this case ) and Antarctica.
There must be many bands who has toured all continents. Norwegian rock band a-ha for instance, has toured Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, North America and Australia ( Mortyman )
Because Wikipedia is contributed to worldwide by users who use a wide variety of types of English and dating, Wikipedia adopted a simple rule for content.
In the case of U2, as the band is Irish, that means that the article has to use
International English is largely based on British English so it means that in effect this article should not use American English spelling and grammar.
International Dating takes the form dd/mm/yyyy, unlike American Dating, which uses mm/dd/yyyy, or ISO which uses yyyy/mm/dd. As it is an Irish topic this article has to use dates in the form 2 April 1970 (with no comma) not April 2, 1970 which is called American dating.
Finally, footnotes follow standard grammatical rules. That means that at the end of the sentence they come after, not before, a full stop or comma. So the reference should be written as text.<ref>footnote text</ref> not text<ref>footnote text</ref>.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
THis section is a mess. Way too long, rambles with insignificant, speculative and unreferenced statements. Personally, i think the value of its inclusion at all in an encyclopedia is dubious given it's speculative nature. I recommend:
-- Merbabu 23:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Glad to be at hand. Anyways, probably some of this information needn't to be scrapped. I think that some of the Other projects paragraph can be really used into individual bandmembers pages. The tour and album info also should be put into the respective pages. I put 1978 because I think this was the year, when they actually signed contract and started producing music under that particular moniker and undertook the career of professional musicians. That was my point for putting it.
Anyways, I think that's... really an article. It was a mess before, now it looks more like a... full-fledged and potential article. Still some work to do (some other time, as it's time to sleep) but yet again I think we are on the right way. Glad to be on board:
The category Category:Christian musical groups has been placed on this page. I removed it but the editor who placed it there insists U2 is a "Christian Band". This is incorrect:
What do others think? -- Merbabu 04:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: The article Christian Rock mentions U2 and others with openly Christian(-like) beliefs - but suggests this is an incorrect categorisation. U2 and the others mentioned are not listed on any of the appropriate Christian rock or music cats. Some artists such as U2, Lifehouse, Creed, Sufjan Stevens, King's X, Thrice, Evanescence, Mute Math, Coldplay, Blessid Union of Souls, and Switchfoot do not claim to be "Christian bands", but include members who openly profess to be Christians and feature Christian thought, imagery, scripture or other influences in their music. There is a tendency among some Christian rock music fans to label rock music bands as Christian where their lyrics are seen as consistent with the fans' understanding of Christian belief, but this is generally not accepted by the contemporary Christian music industry. -- Merbabu 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
What the fuck?
U2 - Christian rock band? The band of Eric Cartman Faith+1 is a Christian rock band. Not U2.
STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH: