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Olaf, a son of Sigtrygg Silkbeard, became an ancestor of the Kings of Gwynedd, through his daughter Ragnhild, the mother of Gruffydd ap Cynan.
Scottish descendants of the Uí Ímair include the famous descendants of Somerled or Clann Somhairle ( Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), through another Ragnhild, a daughter of Olaf I Godredsson. They would become the Lords of the Isles.
Among the modern Irish families once associated with the Uí Ímair are the less widely known O'Donovans. They descend from a daughter of Ivar of Limerick, wife of Donndubán mac Cathail, king of Uí Fidgenti. A daughter of Donovan was then married to Ivar of Waterford, apparently bearing him several sons. DinDraithou ( talk) 01:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Just some comments in passing, quoting sources from memory etc etc - feel absolutely free to ignore these ramblings of mine...
I might be able to add some actual useful comments when I get back to my books, but these ramblings is all I can contribute for now. Finn Rindahl ( talk) 18:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Currently Ivar is listed as a dynast, while Echmarcach is listed as "uncertain relations to the Uí Ímair". In the wikiarticle about Echm. there's a reference to an article by Duffy that seem to (I can't access it) state that Echm. was either grandson or great-grandson ov Ivar - if so they should figure in the same paragraph here. Finn Rindahl ( talk) 12:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Let's just take a look at this (and I note there are no citations at all in the section - Saxo is referred to but where is this in Saxo?: "However, in all other sources, yet all possibly later than Saxo's, the father of Sigurd Ring is given as Randver. But this is where their agreement ends and each give Randver a different ancestry, three in all. Perhaps the most plausible of these alternatives is that offered by the Hervarar saga, which gives his father as Valdar, an attractive answer in part because a certain Valdar, perhaps once identical, is named as an ancestor of the mighty Ivar Vidfamne who himself very well may contribute to the character and/or possibly be an ancestor of Ivar II Beinlaus. In any case theirs is a Danish or Scyldinglineage."
However, in all other sources - who says this?
yet all possibly later than Saxo's who says this?
the father of Sigurd Ring is given as Randver. But this is where their agreement ends and each give Randver a different ancestry, three in all. who says this?'
Perhaps the most plausible of these alternatives who says it is the most plausible?
is that offered by the Hervarar saga, which gives his father as Valdar, an attractive answer in part who calls it an attractive answer?
because a certain Valdar, perhaps once identical,who says this?
is named as an ancestor of the mighty Ivar Vidfamne who himself very well may contribute to the character and/or possibly be an ancestor of Ivar II Beinlaus. who says this?
In any case theirs is a Danish or Scylding lineage. presumably this is easily cited, but it would be nice to have a cite. Dougweller ( talk) 20:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Ok, we agree on that and it's gone. Hopefully this stuff just needs cites:
claimed to be a cadet branch of the House of Aberffraw.
Descendants of the Uí Ímair may have persisted into the 13th century
although his ancestry is not agreed upon and may very well be different.
The Clan MacLeod may also descend from the Uí Ímair in some manner,
obviously as this is a Scottish clan unknown until the 14th century his existence in their pedigree, whomever he may have been, is completely unverifiable. (Yes, I know that's right, but how do you verify it?
Dougweller ( talk) 21:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I've listed the Clann Somhairle, who arose later, as a possible cadet branch. Woolf's case is quite good and we all know that the House of Gofraid Crovan probably were a continuation of the dynasty or a cadet branch themselves. Some of this succession was probably non-agnatic but since that later became common in England I don't see the problem with it here. My personal trick is this: follow the Ragnalls. Clan Donald have been especially fond of this name. Apart from Imar itself this was the only name mostly exclusive to the dynasty with some certainty, at least for a while. Gofraid might have been too, in the Anglo-Celtic Isles that is, but we can't be sure. Sitric probably was but did not remain popular. Everybody and his brother in northwest Europe was named Amlaib.
Identifying surviving septs in Ireland is more difficult. The Thorgilssons of 12th century Dublin might have been related or might not. The O'Donovans of Carbery obviously are related, even being brave enough to say so in hostile territory (hard to deny), but they are a strange regional case who probably can't qualify as a cadet branch politically defined, although an interpretation of Cathair Cuan might allow this. Also if they really do preserve a sept or two of the dynasty then these are too close to the source are aren't cadet. But most importantly they have been of very minor importance following the beginning of the 13th century and it is only accidental the family have survived. So they're too minor to count. I'm saying this about my own ancestors.
The names Ragnall, Imar, and of course Amlaib, did eventually become popular throughout Ireland, if you look through the annals and later genealogical compilations. In fact you can find a few allegedly Gaelic septs strongly favouring the first two and so intermarriage with the Ui Imair, or some incorporation, is obvious. The dynasty was large and spread over a huge area. The problem is that unlike the O'Donovans, these septs have not survived into modern times. Also historical evidence beyond naming practices is lacking so in the end we are still stuck with the semi-satisfactory O'Donovans as our primary Irish example of a maybe.
We need to list the Clann Somhairle because they were as powerful as provincial overkings at their height, and ruled where the earlier dynasty once did. Moncreiffe made them male line descendants of Ivar of Waterford, which oddly would probably make them near enough cousins of the O'Donovans, but this pedigree is very messy if not unacceptable. Its weakest part is the reconstruction back to Echmarcach. It then doesn't matter so much whether he belonged to the Ragnall or Sitric line. Woolf does not mention this pedigree. In any case the Clann Somhairle don't actually need it, as he demonstrates. DinDraithou ( talk) 18:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Uí Ímair → House of Ivar – Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Voting procedure: Vote with either Support or Oppose below this explanation. Please place vote at the bottom of the list please along with a small justification. Any larger comments for debate should be placed in the sub-section provided. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 16:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I think DinDraithou's comment that House of Ivar is actually pronouncable is perhaps a factor which may well be considered the swing factor on this move request. I for one have no idea if I pronounce Uí Ímair correctly, I think if there is an option to have a title which can actually be identified to be the reader then it is likely to be far more accessible. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 18:50, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Possibly we could use Dynasty of Ivar (or Ivar dynasty as that is the usual order on Wikipedia) though I don't see how dynasty makes any more sense than House. In the UK dynasty is only ever really used in reference to Ancient Egyptian and Chinese rulers. Also dynasty is much tighter in scope in that in usually specifically refers to the actual rulers of a state rather than the wider family (within context) which this article seems to cover. However, having said all that Dynasty of Ivar is still pronouncable so it has got to be better than the current situation. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 08:15, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Either way, maybe someone can render the Gaelic into IPA with a template like Template:IPA, or actually record the pronunciation with Template:Audio. An article like this is probably just what those templates are for.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 09:13, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Hiya. Yeah I can knock up an mp3 - if we get a native Irish speaker come up with something else, I'm happy to have it replaced, velarised labials aren't something we have this side of the Irish Sea. Akerbeltz ( talk) 18:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I have changed their ethnicity from Norse / Norse-Gaelic to Norse / Irish. This is very well supported. Scholars are not even sure how long they were in Ireland before they appear in the surviving record, and already in the first half of the 10th century the Anglo-Saxons seem to consider them Irish, calling Sitric Cáech and Niall Glúndub "brothers" and Amlaíb mac Gofraid "King of Ireland." Then we have Amlaíb Cuarán acting like an Irish king and contender for the Kingship of Tara, and in the next century we have his daughter Máel Muire and later Cacht ingen Ragnaill each styled Queen of Ireland without reserve. Finally we have the names they left behind and made popular, most notably Ragnall, and their descendants in today's western Scotland unable to figure out if they are really Irish or Norse in origin. I know of a certain family in southern Ireland who have been suffering with a similar problem for centuries because their ancestors made too many friends among the Uí Ímair and ended up becoming a pseudo-sept of the dynasty in the minds of their more determinedly Gaelic neighbours. But you do not have to be completely Gaelic to be Irish. If you think about it, only several centuries before the appearance of Uí Ímair there were probably British and even Gaulish dynasties setting themselves up in Ireland, still Celtic of course, but the Norse are not so terribly different and everyone well read knows it. Ireland and Scandinavia have been described like sister civilizations, at least in some terms, by different scholars, the former's Viking phase ending before or around the time the latter's began. Both went gradually downhill after theirs ended.
Gael once meant something like "Viking." There was nothing ever very foreign about the Uí Ímair. Nora lives ( talk) 16:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I've dropped an essay into Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Origins of the Uí Ímair and the Earls of Orkney and comments/edits are more than welcome. Some of the reasons it is not (yet) an article are explained on the talk page - I also think it needs some input from those much more familiar with the relevant periods of Norse and Irish history than I am. Ben Mac Dui 15:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The text currently states "First proposed by James Henthorn Todd in 1867,<ref>Todd 1867</ref> and most recently considered by Alex Woolf and Clare Downham, it is possible the Uí Ímair were peculiar in that some early members, and possibly the entire known later dynasty, descended from the founder via the female line." The latter part, in relation to Woolf and Downham, is sourced but the ref. for the idea having originated with Todd does not have a page number. The Cogadh is a bit of a brute to read but I can't find anything about this in it. The edit that created the text states that the editor concerned did not have the page number to hand. Can anyone confirm the authenticity of Todd's involvement? It seems odd to me that Downham would fail to mention it. Ben Mac Dui 20:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Olaf, a son of Sigtrygg Silkbeard, became an ancestor of the Kings of Gwynedd, through his daughter Ragnhild, the mother of Gruffydd ap Cynan.
Scottish descendants of the Uí Ímair include the famous descendants of Somerled or Clann Somhairle ( Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), through another Ragnhild, a daughter of Olaf I Godredsson. They would become the Lords of the Isles.
Among the modern Irish families once associated with the Uí Ímair are the less widely known O'Donovans. They descend from a daughter of Ivar of Limerick, wife of Donndubán mac Cathail, king of Uí Fidgenti. A daughter of Donovan was then married to Ivar of Waterford, apparently bearing him several sons. DinDraithou ( talk) 01:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Just some comments in passing, quoting sources from memory etc etc - feel absolutely free to ignore these ramblings of mine...
I might be able to add some actual useful comments when I get back to my books, but these ramblings is all I can contribute for now. Finn Rindahl ( talk) 18:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Currently Ivar is listed as a dynast, while Echmarcach is listed as "uncertain relations to the Uí Ímair". In the wikiarticle about Echm. there's a reference to an article by Duffy that seem to (I can't access it) state that Echm. was either grandson or great-grandson ov Ivar - if so they should figure in the same paragraph here. Finn Rindahl ( talk) 12:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Let's just take a look at this (and I note there are no citations at all in the section - Saxo is referred to but where is this in Saxo?: "However, in all other sources, yet all possibly later than Saxo's, the father of Sigurd Ring is given as Randver. But this is where their agreement ends and each give Randver a different ancestry, three in all. Perhaps the most plausible of these alternatives is that offered by the Hervarar saga, which gives his father as Valdar, an attractive answer in part because a certain Valdar, perhaps once identical, is named as an ancestor of the mighty Ivar Vidfamne who himself very well may contribute to the character and/or possibly be an ancestor of Ivar II Beinlaus. In any case theirs is a Danish or Scyldinglineage."
However, in all other sources - who says this?
yet all possibly later than Saxo's who says this?
the father of Sigurd Ring is given as Randver. But this is where their agreement ends and each give Randver a different ancestry, three in all. who says this?'
Perhaps the most plausible of these alternatives who says it is the most plausible?
is that offered by the Hervarar saga, which gives his father as Valdar, an attractive answer in part who calls it an attractive answer?
because a certain Valdar, perhaps once identical,who says this?
is named as an ancestor of the mighty Ivar Vidfamne who himself very well may contribute to the character and/or possibly be an ancestor of Ivar II Beinlaus. who says this?
In any case theirs is a Danish or Scylding lineage. presumably this is easily cited, but it would be nice to have a cite. Dougweller ( talk) 20:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Ok, we agree on that and it's gone. Hopefully this stuff just needs cites:
claimed to be a cadet branch of the House of Aberffraw.
Descendants of the Uí Ímair may have persisted into the 13th century
although his ancestry is not agreed upon and may very well be different.
The Clan MacLeod may also descend from the Uí Ímair in some manner,
obviously as this is a Scottish clan unknown until the 14th century his existence in their pedigree, whomever he may have been, is completely unverifiable. (Yes, I know that's right, but how do you verify it?
Dougweller ( talk) 21:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I've listed the Clann Somhairle, who arose later, as a possible cadet branch. Woolf's case is quite good and we all know that the House of Gofraid Crovan probably were a continuation of the dynasty or a cadet branch themselves. Some of this succession was probably non-agnatic but since that later became common in England I don't see the problem with it here. My personal trick is this: follow the Ragnalls. Clan Donald have been especially fond of this name. Apart from Imar itself this was the only name mostly exclusive to the dynasty with some certainty, at least for a while. Gofraid might have been too, in the Anglo-Celtic Isles that is, but we can't be sure. Sitric probably was but did not remain popular. Everybody and his brother in northwest Europe was named Amlaib.
Identifying surviving septs in Ireland is more difficult. The Thorgilssons of 12th century Dublin might have been related or might not. The O'Donovans of Carbery obviously are related, even being brave enough to say so in hostile territory (hard to deny), but they are a strange regional case who probably can't qualify as a cadet branch politically defined, although an interpretation of Cathair Cuan might allow this. Also if they really do preserve a sept or two of the dynasty then these are too close to the source are aren't cadet. But most importantly they have been of very minor importance following the beginning of the 13th century and it is only accidental the family have survived. So they're too minor to count. I'm saying this about my own ancestors.
The names Ragnall, Imar, and of course Amlaib, did eventually become popular throughout Ireland, if you look through the annals and later genealogical compilations. In fact you can find a few allegedly Gaelic septs strongly favouring the first two and so intermarriage with the Ui Imair, or some incorporation, is obvious. The dynasty was large and spread over a huge area. The problem is that unlike the O'Donovans, these septs have not survived into modern times. Also historical evidence beyond naming practices is lacking so in the end we are still stuck with the semi-satisfactory O'Donovans as our primary Irish example of a maybe.
We need to list the Clann Somhairle because they were as powerful as provincial overkings at their height, and ruled where the earlier dynasty once did. Moncreiffe made them male line descendants of Ivar of Waterford, which oddly would probably make them near enough cousins of the O'Donovans, but this pedigree is very messy if not unacceptable. Its weakest part is the reconstruction back to Echmarcach. It then doesn't matter so much whether he belonged to the Ragnall or Sitric line. Woolf does not mention this pedigree. In any case the Clann Somhairle don't actually need it, as he demonstrates. DinDraithou ( talk) 18:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Uí Ímair → House of Ivar – Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 17:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Voting procedure: Vote with either Support or Oppose below this explanation. Please place vote at the bottom of the list please along with a small justification. Any larger comments for debate should be placed in the sub-section provided. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 16:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I think DinDraithou's comment that House of Ivar is actually pronouncable is perhaps a factor which may well be considered the swing factor on this move request. I for one have no idea if I pronounce Uí Ímair correctly, I think if there is an option to have a title which can actually be identified to be the reader then it is likely to be far more accessible. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 18:50, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Possibly we could use Dynasty of Ivar (or Ivar dynasty as that is the usual order on Wikipedia) though I don't see how dynasty makes any more sense than House. In the UK dynasty is only ever really used in reference to Ancient Egyptian and Chinese rulers. Also dynasty is much tighter in scope in that in usually specifically refers to the actual rulers of a state rather than the wider family (within context) which this article seems to cover. However, having said all that Dynasty of Ivar is still pronouncable so it has got to be better than the current situation. Shatter Resistance ( talk) 08:15, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Either way, maybe someone can render the Gaelic into IPA with a template like Template:IPA, or actually record the pronunciation with Template:Audio. An article like this is probably just what those templates are for.-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 09:13, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Hiya. Yeah I can knock up an mp3 - if we get a native Irish speaker come up with something else, I'm happy to have it replaced, velarised labials aren't something we have this side of the Irish Sea. Akerbeltz ( talk) 18:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I have changed their ethnicity from Norse / Norse-Gaelic to Norse / Irish. This is very well supported. Scholars are not even sure how long they were in Ireland before they appear in the surviving record, and already in the first half of the 10th century the Anglo-Saxons seem to consider them Irish, calling Sitric Cáech and Niall Glúndub "brothers" and Amlaíb mac Gofraid "King of Ireland." Then we have Amlaíb Cuarán acting like an Irish king and contender for the Kingship of Tara, and in the next century we have his daughter Máel Muire and later Cacht ingen Ragnaill each styled Queen of Ireland without reserve. Finally we have the names they left behind and made popular, most notably Ragnall, and their descendants in today's western Scotland unable to figure out if they are really Irish or Norse in origin. I know of a certain family in southern Ireland who have been suffering with a similar problem for centuries because their ancestors made too many friends among the Uí Ímair and ended up becoming a pseudo-sept of the dynasty in the minds of their more determinedly Gaelic neighbours. But you do not have to be completely Gaelic to be Irish. If you think about it, only several centuries before the appearance of Uí Ímair there were probably British and even Gaulish dynasties setting themselves up in Ireland, still Celtic of course, but the Norse are not so terribly different and everyone well read knows it. Ireland and Scandinavia have been described like sister civilizations, at least in some terms, by different scholars, the former's Viking phase ending before or around the time the latter's began. Both went gradually downhill after theirs ended.
Gael once meant something like "Viking." There was nothing ever very foreign about the Uí Ímair. Nora lives ( talk) 16:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I've dropped an essay into Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Origins of the Uí Ímair and the Earls of Orkney and comments/edits are more than welcome. Some of the reasons it is not (yet) an article are explained on the talk page - I also think it needs some input from those much more familiar with the relevant periods of Norse and Irish history than I am. Ben Mac Dui 15:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The text currently states "First proposed by James Henthorn Todd in 1867,<ref>Todd 1867</ref> and most recently considered by Alex Woolf and Clare Downham, it is possible the Uí Ímair were peculiar in that some early members, and possibly the entire known later dynasty, descended from the founder via the female line." The latter part, in relation to Woolf and Downham, is sourced but the ref. for the idea having originated with Todd does not have a page number. The Cogadh is a bit of a brute to read but I can't find anything about this in it. The edit that created the text states that the editor concerned did not have the page number to hand. Can anyone confirm the authenticity of Todd's involvement? It seems odd to me that Downham would fail to mention it. Ben Mac Dui 20:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)