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If Sidon is older, how does Tyre have a longer history?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.132.18.1 ( talk • contribs)
Why aren't the dates of some kings listed? If they aren't known, question marks or guesses should be added. -- Simetrical 02:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was looking for a wheel part a tyre(Tire for Americans)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudtz ( talk • contribs)
The article claims that the current name, Sur (aṣ-Ṣūr) means "rock". Can anyone site a source or provide some information that I don't know? As far as I know, the name does not mean "rock" (or "wall", for that matter). - Cybjorg 10:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In Arabic, well, at least in modern Lebanese, Sour means 'city walls' or 'rampart'. The word probably have an older origin than that though.
The word Tzur in Hebrew (also the Hebrew name of the city) means Rock. Hebrew is Southern Phoenician so the Bible is a good source. Of course Tyre comes from the Latin Tyrus which ultimately comes from the Greek and latin Bibles. So look to the source materials. "Lexicon Results for Tsor (Strong's 06865) Hebrew for 06865 Pronunciation Guide Tsor {tsore} or Tsowr {tsore} TWOT Reference Root Word TWOT - 1965 the same as 06864 Part of Speech n pr loc Outline of Biblical Usage Tyre or Tyrus = "a rock" 1) the Phoenician city on the Mediterranean coast" http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/6/1148047790-8473.html Take Care!--Will314159 14:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Occult nonsense. WHOLE article about Tyre is based on some "Bible". The origin of the term Tyr is "Etruscan".
I'm guessing this discussion is the reason the article doesn't have an etymology section, My two cents are that the name today means 'flint' in hebrew. I hope you can clear it up since this discussion has been going for 10 years by the looks of it. 212.179.111.210 ( talk) 06:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Would it be possible for someone who is familiar with Wikipedia's mapping system to provide one for this city (in a similar manner to the location map provided for most other cities e.g. on the London or Paris articles). The lattitude and longitude co-ordinates are already provided so this should not be difficult. I would try myself but I am not sure how the mapping system works. Canderra 13:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a map of Lebanon on the Lebanon page that has Tyre on it. I'll go ahead and add it. -- Transfinite 22:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone provide some useful external sources or books regarding the history of Tyre, expecially its ancient history? Thanks. -- Cdbavg400 22:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
In 'The Interpretation of Dreams' Sigmund Freud tells a story according to which Alexander became confident of his victory over Tyre after having dreamed about a satire, in Greek 'Satyros', which actually meant 'sa tyros', 'tyre is yours'. I don't know if this concerns this article, but it's quite interesting. A.Z. 03:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be moved, so as to avoid confusion when Australians, Britons, the Irish, etc are searching for information on a wheel tyre. I suggest a new page title of "Tyre (Phoenician city)" or something similar. -- AxSkov 12:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Tyre, Lebanon and make Tyre a disambiguation page. — Mets501 ( talk) 00:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Tyre →
Tyre, Lebanon – move solves 1. already backed by 3:1 opinion on
Tyre talk page 2. WP:NC "majority of English speakers would most easily recognize part of wheel over Lebanese city" (Current redirection of
tyre to Tyre (the Lebanese city) is a major confusion) 3. resolution of article spelling dispute US English article
tire vs majority of English speakers spelling of
tyre (proposed solution is redirect disambiguation page from
tyre to
tire) 4. WP:NC "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists" - tyre is general English word, Tyre (Lebanon) although of huge historical and current affairs importance, is a specialist history article, which as the guide states is of more importance than numbers of Wikipedia links. 5. the primary name
tyre should have parity with
tire, otherwise large US spelling bias is introduced into Wikipedia. Agreed, this is a bold move (not done by other encyclopaedias), but by avoiding a possible bias of US-spelling - keeps onboard non-US readers - so is at the core very Wikipedia (general audience), while still following Wikipedia convention.
Widefox 16:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Please edit to get consensus on - updated Widefox 17:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose.
Bath goes to the city,
Cork goes to the city,
Flagstaff redirects to the city. Tyre is an ancient, very well known city, and even if it's a redirect to 'Tyre, Lebanon', that's where 'Tyre' should go. The part of the wheel is a spelling variant that shouldn't obscure a major part of history, and the standard 'For other meanings of the word Tyre...' can be put on the top. For the record, I'm English. --
Mnem
e
son 23:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Also, I just pulled out my English Hutchinson's Encyclopaedia, who have Tyre the city as the first entry for the word. --
Mnem
e
son 00:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC) Changed comment to support a disambig, see below. --
Mnem
e
son 00:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dudtz 10/6/06 7:50 PM EST
Add any additional comments
One proviso - before voting above, US and Canadian English spellers - please consider your sentiment if tire redirected to Tyre, Lebanon, or even a disambiguation page. Also, considering this is a UK invention, I propose parity on the namespace, with the article in US spelling as the compromise! Widefox 17:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC) added to Widefox 22:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
(Imperfect) analogy Acre and Acre, Israel. Widefox 17:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
You'd prefer Bullet and Bullet, Switzerland? Tombstone and Tombstone, Arizona? Eagle and Eagle, Alaska (and about 40 other places called 'Eagle')? There are dozens and dozens of them. In fact, I can't find any counter-examples where the common noun is used for the city and the object is disambiguated. You can't even argue for the fact that we already have 'Tire' and that 'Tyre' is merely a redirect - because Tombstone is a redirect for Headstone for a similar reason. SteveBaker 19:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Canadian English uses "tire" as the rubber treading on cars. 132.205.93.195 21:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
No takers for the UK invention yet? hmmm.... Widefox 22:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Refocus on readers - there are already complaints from UK, and Australia. Widefox 15:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
(unindent)
Whilst one may not agree with rule 3, it is actually the current rule - and this is not the right place to dispute it. I think the intention here is to say: In the event that there is no other justification to rationally choose one spelling over the other, choose the one that is least likely to cause a revert war (ie leave well alone). Whilst this is in some regards an editor-oriented rule rather than a reader-oriented rule, I think it's intended as an ultimate 'tie breaker' in the event that no strong rational reason can be found. It's not in the readerships interests for there to be continually reverted text - so in that respect, it's still a rule to help the reader. SteveBaker 04:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Discussion moved from WP:RM. Peter O. ( Talk) 03:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are some relevent facts:
I submit that if we are to decide this on the basis of common practice and not US/UK english bias then (1) and (2) are completely conclusive and (4) provides strong support for the need to move Tyre to Tyre, Lebanon. SteveBaker 14:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have put forward some cases ( Bullet, Tombstone, Eagle) where the place name is the one that is extended in order to avoid ambiguity ( Eagle is the bird, Eagle, Alaska is the place). Others have come up with counter-examples ( Cork is the place, Cork (material) is the stuff they make wine bottle stoppers out of). There are actually yet a third class (such as Liege) where the name points to the disambiguation page and both the city of Leige and the class of feudal leader are extended to disambiguate them.
So how are we to choose which of these three approaches is "correct"? Ideally, there should be some WP:MOS guideline - but there isn't. Another approach to deciding this would be by the majority precedent. If we found that an overwhelming majority of these cases were resolved in favor of one approach over the others - then that would provide a strong precedece that it would be illogical to ignore. But it's hard to measure the relative statistics of the three ways to do this because we are reliant on people just thinking of place names that have synonyms - and that's hard to do.
For the sake of doing SOMETHING, I decided to look at a thousand or so placenames and count how many of each type there were. From familiarity, I picked place names in England for all of the counties beginning with the letter 'S' (No particular reason). For each of the place names listed in 'List of place names in XXX', I clicked the link to see where it went or was redirected. As expected, I saw all three ways of resolving it represented.
RESULTS:
Out of about 1,000 place names I found, just fifteen were potentially ambiguous (and for which articles had been written). Of those fifteen:
So these numbers suggest that whilst there are examples where the place name is kept as-is and the other noun is extended, these are a lot less common than the opposite case.
Yes, this may not be a scientifically valid statistical sample - feel free to mindlessly click through a thousand place names from some other set and perhaps you can prove me wrong!
The one and only example point-to-placename example in that set of 15 ambiguous names was a bit 'iffy'. Cheddar is a place - and it's a cheese made in that place. So the term 'cheddar' as applied to cheese is really short-hand for "Cheese from Cheddar" and as such, the article on it should never have been called 'Cheddar' in the first place.
Of the remainder, it's hard to come up with any reason why some names point to disambiguation pages and others point to the non-place-name meaning.
SteveBaker 05:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Steve, this is great reading (I mean Reading (activity)) - sorry, couldn't resist! Proper nouns with capitals, hmmm, wikipedia! anyhow, suppose we've past that point now where case-sensitivity can be introduced into wikipedia, thus doubling the namespace (just a remark, not a suggestion). Have you found more non-English towns/cities, like in my Fact section above? Widefox 12:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we avoid degrading into anti-American cant? Just as with Cheque/check, there is an alternate spelling that is mostly unambiguous. The question is what do we do with the ambiguous term. I admit I would never think of calling the black rubber thing a "tyre", but though this discussion, I can appreciate that it is indeed the common term for that use in a large part of the English-speaking world. But, I don't think we could ever get agreement that that usage should be the primary topic. Since there is no consensus as to what the primary usage of "tyre" is, it should be a disambiguation page. The way the move was proposed and the argument in favor of the move presented, the suggestion that tyre should redirect to tire became an issue. If this requested move is recast as moving the present article to Tyre, Lebanon and Tyre (disambiguation) to Tyre, the vote and discussion would have likely followed a very different course. older ≠ wiser 15:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
SteveBaker 17:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
SteveBaker wrote: "The question is that for non-American speakers, does the word 'Tyre' relate mainly to the object or mainly to the city?"
SteveBakerwrote: "For you to argue that "the British usage of tyre is irrelevent" would be flat out insulting to a very large fraction of English speakers - so please don't do that."
Also to Steve, while you may claim that "tire" is "just plain wrong'" to non-American speakers -- the analogy to cheque is appropos -- to most American speakers the "correct" British spelling is simply wrong. Simply arguing that "tire" is wrong for some group of users doesn't get us very far, because the other term is also just as wrong for another group of users. older ≠ wiser 23:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, enough disagreement. I want to set this straight, once. Better balancing the namespace for tire vs. tyre readers is my original aim, not necessarily a redirect. I am pragmatic - if a disambiguation page at tyre is the only way to get consensus, then I want everyone to decide on that. It is my proposal, and I'll clarify it if I want to. Just tell me if you want to see that written elsewhere other than this comment. Widefox 00:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
now that's made me laugh... Cabot The discover of America - a disambiguation page! Widefox 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
As an Australian, tyres are on wheels and hard work makes you tire, but I've read enough comics and websites to know how North Americans spell things. If you look at media quantity, then the Queen's english is already effectively an older fading version of North American, and ancient Tyre was here before pneumatic tyres. I became briefly perturbed by ft.lbf, but tyre.tire, as long as it can be found. Seasalt 12:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've placed this commented text here, and replaced it with a small note to discourage new insertion.
The film Ben-Hur's chariot race did not use the hippodrome as its setting. It was filmed on a set constructed on 18 acres of backlot at Cinecitta Studios outside Rome. The silent Ben-Hur also did not use it. Note that a real stadium would not have a big 'island' in the middle blocking the view the race. Reference: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052618/trivia Widefox 16:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
If the city is sometimes referred to as "Sour" I think that it should be noted in the article. Someone thought it was important enough to add a disambiguation link to basic taste, which sour redirects to. Note: later someone else erased part of the disambiguation notice and I fixed it. I did not add it myself. If the city is not referred to by this name, the disambiguation link should be removed from basic taste. There is a good chance that I will not come back to this talk page, as my time on Wikipedia is currently sporadic and I'll forget about it. Therefore, I suggest that someone who is knowledgeable about the subject take care of it. -- Kjkolb 05:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
To put this in context...On the disambig we have:
1) A regional-specific spelling of an extremely common word 2) A large city in Lebanon 3) A town with a population of less than 1,000 people 4) Another town with a population of less than 1,000 people
I do not believe that anybody can seriously argue that 3 and 4 are comparable alongside 1 and 2.
I see, therefore, that we have 2 viable options:
1) 'tyre' goes directly to tire and the disambig at the top remains 2) 'tyre' goes directly to tyre (Lebanon) and a disambig is added to the page
Wikipedia looks terrible when a very common word is linking to (basically) nothing. It should go to one of the 2 and have a disambig within, there is nothing to be gained by having an extra step for EVERY SINGLE user regardless of which type they are looking for when you could only affect the searches of (presuming 50/50 split of what users are searching for) 50%. In reality this could well be 75% are looking for Tyre (tire) and only 25% the city in Lebanon (with an extremely small amount looking for the other version).
This talk page is already full of debate about the organisational structure of wikipedia, lets come to an agreement and link this to one or the other, because as it stands we have the worst of both worlds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ny156uk ( talk • contribs)
Please excuse me if the formatting for my message is poor.
I just had a question about how to post a "cultural reference" for Tyre/Sidon. Amie Cesaire uses the images of "Tyre" and "Sidon" in his book "Notebook on a Return to the Native Land," and I think it is worthy of mention in the article. I have read copyright information before, but it's still kind of confusing. I am curious to know if my posting something like
"Amie Cesaire mentions Tyre and Sidon in his book, 'Notebook on a Return to the Native Land.'"
would be a violation of copyright, or perhaps too simplistic? I am reluctant to try to interpret what Cesaire means by using the cities in his poetry, because I feel like that is outside of the scope of listing it as a cultural "reference."
I can provide all publishing information and page numbers regarding MY source for the citation.
Thanks in advance -- Bohemoth 19:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Is tyria in
Guild Wars a referance? Tyria and tyrians and ascalon looks quite like it--
Slogankid 20:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
how do you pronounce the name Tyre in English?-- Sonjaaa 13:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What's the name of the Island that Tyre is on? Tyre Island? -- Armanalp ( talk) 17:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. -- Armanalp ( talk) 14:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I see a few tantalizing bits about the Tyrian games, which seem to be closely related to the Olympics. As much as I can make out (I can't access the best looking reference at [1]) the Tyrians held quintennial games dedicated to the Tyrian Baal, Melqart. From the various Wikipedia articles, apparently Melqart was accepted as synonymous with the Olympian Heracles (one of the Twelve Olympians and possibly distinct from the heroic Heracles). Apparently there were major revisions at the Tyrian temple (to "Zeus Olympius" or "Ba'al Shamayim") around the tenth century BC which established it in the Greek cultural orbit. However I'm finding claims that a stadium in Amrit, Syria actually predated the Greek Olympics and that the Phoenicians actually started the Olympics idea. [2] Apparently Israeli participation in the Tyrian games under Jason the High Priest was the source of a major conflict in 186 BC. [3] I haven't figured out yet whether Alexander the Great's stated desire to worship in the temple to Zeus Olympius was related to these games directly. Ruins of the stadium persist to this day. [4]
I think it would be very interesting for someone familiar with the archaeological literature to look into this and clarify what is known about the origin of the Tyrian games and whether they are cause or effect of the Greek Olympics.
It is ironic to imagine that such a flamboyantly Christian country as the U.S. has avoided laws against blasphemy but has passed an act of Congress to protect the symbol of the games founded ? in worship of Baal... Wnt ( talk) 03:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm engaged in an edit-war on Bible prophecy (I've already sent a WP:3RR report) with a user who insists that Tyre has been destroyed and no longer exists. The problem is that Ezekiel prophesied its destruction: therefore of course it can't exist, right? Here's the paragraph that I deleted as inaccurate, and he keeps reinstating:
"The island city was destroyed by Alexander the Great during the Siege of Tyre and its residents were enslaved. Alexander used the debris from the destroyed mainland city to build a causeway to the island city. The Phoenicians never rebuilt Tyre. Numerous other empires and countries have rebuilt the city at or near the site of the original only to have them destroyed. The fishing village of Sur is now located at the original site of Tyre."
I can no longer correct this without violating 3RR. -- Robert Stevens ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hardly. Tyre WAS destroyed but it was rebuilt by other empires. I never stated that Tyre did not exist. You're using a straw-man. 64.231.99.114 ( talk) 21:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Only a small portion of the city is located on the original site. The buildings on the original site of Tyre cover an area of a few hundred meters by a few hundred meters, hardly a city. 64.231.99.114 ( talk) 22:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
It covers half of the former island (go to Google Earth and look), including the entire northern harbour region. The rest of the "fishing village" won't fit, because Tyre is now far too big to fit. -- Robert Stevens ( talk) 22:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
The Biblical prophecy of Tyre's destruction makes no reference to Alexander whatsoever. It very explicitly claims Nebuchadnezzar will do it (and it turns out Nebuchadnezzar was unsuccessful). This guy's claim that Tyre was destroyed and never rebuilt may indeed be wrong, but his argument not necessarily based on Biblical literalism. Apokalyps2547 ( talk) 22:56, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: The reference [19] links to a wrong event.
"Tyre was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years. From 586 until 573 BC, the city was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar II[18] until Tyre agreed to pay a tribute.[19]"
The reference [19] links to: http://www.attalus.org/bc4/year315.html#20 But it does not deal with 586-573 BC, but with 315 BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.89.230.136 ( talk) 10:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
This article would really benefit from more information on what the city is like today in terms of infrastructure, rebuilding etc. at the present time, particularly considering damage in the Israeli invasion etc. Caspar esq. ( talk) 13:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
A line reads "A king of Cyprus had taken Tyre with his fleet in the 370s BC, "a remarkable success about which little is known," Robin Lane Fox remarked." It would appear from http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/cyprus/kition/i.html that The king of Kition, Cyprus, BC 392-361 BC. was Melekiathon. He has no article. Not trying for WP:OR here, just puzzled why we can not at least put a name to the attacker. Student7 ( talk) 17:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the reference to Jesus visiting the area really come under "cultural references" since there does not appear to be any corroborating evidence from a contemporary historical source? -- Archstanton ( talk) 15:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Some material reads: "Common leisure activities can be enjoyed throughout the year. Cycling, camping, wildlife photography, snorkeling and scuba diving are best enjoyed during spring and summer, and bird watching is best during spring and autumn."
It was listed under a section, "Tyre Coast Natural Reserve", which does not follow standard nomenclature for a city page. Perhaps should be under "Geography."
Wikipedia is not WikiVoyage nor WikiTravel. Nor is it WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of all information. It is an encyclopedia. This is "chatty" and frivolous in nature. It attempts to inform the reader when to plan her/his trip to Tyre (violating WP:NOTHOW). It is WP:BOOSTER-ism. A bit self-conscious WP:PEACOCK-ism. Neither is it cited by a WP:RS. To try to justify it's existence, I moved it to an "Economy-Tourism" subsection. It was reverted.
I also tried to shorten another sentence under the umbrella of Keep it simple. It was reverted at the same time. Student7 ( talk) 23:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
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What is the use of including any of the prophecy stuff? Wikipedia is not here to prove or disprove Bible prophecies. The entire section is pointless. Adam Bishop ( talk) 02:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The history-section includes defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high (with ref to Lorenzi, Rossella (May 21, 2007). Sandbar Aided Alexander the Great. Discovery News). Could someone confirm; 46 m sounds like an awful lot to me. Poul G ( talk) 15:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be more mention of the Phoenicians, since many of them came from Tyre and established colonies all over the Mediterranean, plus Carthage? I'm no expert so not sure how to start, but I came here to read more and didn't find much. From this article it just seems like the city was captured a few times and that's it. -- AW ( talk) 18:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Greetings and felicitations. I just finished extensive edits on the article, largely to cleanup image placement, as in wide browser windows the appendices were very badly overrun, and to add a Too many photos template. Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns about this. I would appreciate it if you do, that you please notify me. — DocWatson42 ( talk) 06:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The readable prose-size is currently 125kB. This is overly long based on WP:SIZERULE. The existing suggestion to split out the historical content into a new article is sensible. I see the article is currently a Good Article nominee. My view is that it should be split, before either of the resultant articles are assessed against the GA criteria. Marshelec ( talk) 05:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
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60,000 people in 4 km^2 (city) = 15,000 people per km^2.
174,000 people in 17 km^2 (metro) = more than 10,000 people per km^2.
If the numbers are true, I think this is the densest place on Earth. Aminabzz ( talk) 18:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Tyre, Lebanon was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (January 2, 2022). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
If Sidon is older, how does Tyre have a longer history?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.132.18.1 ( talk • contribs)
Why aren't the dates of some kings listed? If they aren't known, question marks or guesses should be added. -- Simetrical 02:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was looking for a wheel part a tyre(Tire for Americans)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudtz ( talk • contribs)
The article claims that the current name, Sur (aṣ-Ṣūr) means "rock". Can anyone site a source or provide some information that I don't know? As far as I know, the name does not mean "rock" (or "wall", for that matter). - Cybjorg 10:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In Arabic, well, at least in modern Lebanese, Sour means 'city walls' or 'rampart'. The word probably have an older origin than that though.
The word Tzur in Hebrew (also the Hebrew name of the city) means Rock. Hebrew is Southern Phoenician so the Bible is a good source. Of course Tyre comes from the Latin Tyrus which ultimately comes from the Greek and latin Bibles. So look to the source materials. "Lexicon Results for Tsor (Strong's 06865) Hebrew for 06865 Pronunciation Guide Tsor {tsore} or Tsowr {tsore} TWOT Reference Root Word TWOT - 1965 the same as 06864 Part of Speech n pr loc Outline of Biblical Usage Tyre or Tyrus = "a rock" 1) the Phoenician city on the Mediterranean coast" http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/6/1148047790-8473.html Take Care!--Will314159 14:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Occult nonsense. WHOLE article about Tyre is based on some "Bible". The origin of the term Tyr is "Etruscan".
I'm guessing this discussion is the reason the article doesn't have an etymology section, My two cents are that the name today means 'flint' in hebrew. I hope you can clear it up since this discussion has been going for 10 years by the looks of it. 212.179.111.210 ( talk) 06:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Would it be possible for someone who is familiar with Wikipedia's mapping system to provide one for this city (in a similar manner to the location map provided for most other cities e.g. on the London or Paris articles). The lattitude and longitude co-ordinates are already provided so this should not be difficult. I would try myself but I am not sure how the mapping system works. Canderra 13:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a map of Lebanon on the Lebanon page that has Tyre on it. I'll go ahead and add it. -- Transfinite 22:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone provide some useful external sources or books regarding the history of Tyre, expecially its ancient history? Thanks. -- Cdbavg400 22:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
In 'The Interpretation of Dreams' Sigmund Freud tells a story according to which Alexander became confident of his victory over Tyre after having dreamed about a satire, in Greek 'Satyros', which actually meant 'sa tyros', 'tyre is yours'. I don't know if this concerns this article, but it's quite interesting. A.Z. 03:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be moved, so as to avoid confusion when Australians, Britons, the Irish, etc are searching for information on a wheel tyre. I suggest a new page title of "Tyre (Phoenician city)" or something similar. -- AxSkov 12:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Tyre, Lebanon and make Tyre a disambiguation page. — Mets501 ( talk) 00:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Tyre →
Tyre, Lebanon – move solves 1. already backed by 3:1 opinion on
Tyre talk page 2. WP:NC "majority of English speakers would most easily recognize part of wheel over Lebanese city" (Current redirection of
tyre to Tyre (the Lebanese city) is a major confusion) 3. resolution of article spelling dispute US English article
tire vs majority of English speakers spelling of
tyre (proposed solution is redirect disambiguation page from
tyre to
tire) 4. WP:NC "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists" - tyre is general English word, Tyre (Lebanon) although of huge historical and current affairs importance, is a specialist history article, which as the guide states is of more importance than numbers of Wikipedia links. 5. the primary name
tyre should have parity with
tire, otherwise large US spelling bias is introduced into Wikipedia. Agreed, this is a bold move (not done by other encyclopaedias), but by avoiding a possible bias of US-spelling - keeps onboard non-US readers - so is at the core very Wikipedia (general audience), while still following Wikipedia convention.
Widefox 16:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Please edit to get consensus on - updated Widefox 17:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose.
Bath goes to the city,
Cork goes to the city,
Flagstaff redirects to the city. Tyre is an ancient, very well known city, and even if it's a redirect to 'Tyre, Lebanon', that's where 'Tyre' should go. The part of the wheel is a spelling variant that shouldn't obscure a major part of history, and the standard 'For other meanings of the word Tyre...' can be put on the top. For the record, I'm English. --
Mnem
e
son 23:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Also, I just pulled out my English Hutchinson's Encyclopaedia, who have Tyre the city as the first entry for the word. --
Mnem
e
son 00:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC) Changed comment to support a disambig, see below. --
Mnem
e
son 00:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dudtz 10/6/06 7:50 PM EST
Add any additional comments
One proviso - before voting above, US and Canadian English spellers - please consider your sentiment if tire redirected to Tyre, Lebanon, or even a disambiguation page. Also, considering this is a UK invention, I propose parity on the namespace, with the article in US spelling as the compromise! Widefox 17:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC) added to Widefox 22:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
(Imperfect) analogy Acre and Acre, Israel. Widefox 17:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
You'd prefer Bullet and Bullet, Switzerland? Tombstone and Tombstone, Arizona? Eagle and Eagle, Alaska (and about 40 other places called 'Eagle')? There are dozens and dozens of them. In fact, I can't find any counter-examples where the common noun is used for the city and the object is disambiguated. You can't even argue for the fact that we already have 'Tire' and that 'Tyre' is merely a redirect - because Tombstone is a redirect for Headstone for a similar reason. SteveBaker 19:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Canadian English uses "tire" as the rubber treading on cars. 132.205.93.195 21:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
No takers for the UK invention yet? hmmm.... Widefox 22:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Refocus on readers - there are already complaints from UK, and Australia. Widefox 15:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
(unindent)
Whilst one may not agree with rule 3, it is actually the current rule - and this is not the right place to dispute it. I think the intention here is to say: In the event that there is no other justification to rationally choose one spelling over the other, choose the one that is least likely to cause a revert war (ie leave well alone). Whilst this is in some regards an editor-oriented rule rather than a reader-oriented rule, I think it's intended as an ultimate 'tie breaker' in the event that no strong rational reason can be found. It's not in the readerships interests for there to be continually reverted text - so in that respect, it's still a rule to help the reader. SteveBaker 04:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Discussion moved from WP:RM. Peter O. ( Talk) 03:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are some relevent facts:
I submit that if we are to decide this on the basis of common practice and not US/UK english bias then (1) and (2) are completely conclusive and (4) provides strong support for the need to move Tyre to Tyre, Lebanon. SteveBaker 14:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have put forward some cases ( Bullet, Tombstone, Eagle) where the place name is the one that is extended in order to avoid ambiguity ( Eagle is the bird, Eagle, Alaska is the place). Others have come up with counter-examples ( Cork is the place, Cork (material) is the stuff they make wine bottle stoppers out of). There are actually yet a third class (such as Liege) where the name points to the disambiguation page and both the city of Leige and the class of feudal leader are extended to disambiguate them.
So how are we to choose which of these three approaches is "correct"? Ideally, there should be some WP:MOS guideline - but there isn't. Another approach to deciding this would be by the majority precedent. If we found that an overwhelming majority of these cases were resolved in favor of one approach over the others - then that would provide a strong precedece that it would be illogical to ignore. But it's hard to measure the relative statistics of the three ways to do this because we are reliant on people just thinking of place names that have synonyms - and that's hard to do.
For the sake of doing SOMETHING, I decided to look at a thousand or so placenames and count how many of each type there were. From familiarity, I picked place names in England for all of the counties beginning with the letter 'S' (No particular reason). For each of the place names listed in 'List of place names in XXX', I clicked the link to see where it went or was redirected. As expected, I saw all three ways of resolving it represented.
RESULTS:
Out of about 1,000 place names I found, just fifteen were potentially ambiguous (and for which articles had been written). Of those fifteen:
So these numbers suggest that whilst there are examples where the place name is kept as-is and the other noun is extended, these are a lot less common than the opposite case.
Yes, this may not be a scientifically valid statistical sample - feel free to mindlessly click through a thousand place names from some other set and perhaps you can prove me wrong!
The one and only example point-to-placename example in that set of 15 ambiguous names was a bit 'iffy'. Cheddar is a place - and it's a cheese made in that place. So the term 'cheddar' as applied to cheese is really short-hand for "Cheese from Cheddar" and as such, the article on it should never have been called 'Cheddar' in the first place.
Of the remainder, it's hard to come up with any reason why some names point to disambiguation pages and others point to the non-place-name meaning.
SteveBaker 05:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Steve, this is great reading (I mean Reading (activity)) - sorry, couldn't resist! Proper nouns with capitals, hmmm, wikipedia! anyhow, suppose we've past that point now where case-sensitivity can be introduced into wikipedia, thus doubling the namespace (just a remark, not a suggestion). Have you found more non-English towns/cities, like in my Fact section above? Widefox 12:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we avoid degrading into anti-American cant? Just as with Cheque/check, there is an alternate spelling that is mostly unambiguous. The question is what do we do with the ambiguous term. I admit I would never think of calling the black rubber thing a "tyre", but though this discussion, I can appreciate that it is indeed the common term for that use in a large part of the English-speaking world. But, I don't think we could ever get agreement that that usage should be the primary topic. Since there is no consensus as to what the primary usage of "tyre" is, it should be a disambiguation page. The way the move was proposed and the argument in favor of the move presented, the suggestion that tyre should redirect to tire became an issue. If this requested move is recast as moving the present article to Tyre, Lebanon and Tyre (disambiguation) to Tyre, the vote and discussion would have likely followed a very different course. older ≠ wiser 15:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
SteveBaker 17:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
SteveBaker wrote: "The question is that for non-American speakers, does the word 'Tyre' relate mainly to the object or mainly to the city?"
SteveBakerwrote: "For you to argue that "the British usage of tyre is irrelevent" would be flat out insulting to a very large fraction of English speakers - so please don't do that."
Also to Steve, while you may claim that "tire" is "just plain wrong'" to non-American speakers -- the analogy to cheque is appropos -- to most American speakers the "correct" British spelling is simply wrong. Simply arguing that "tire" is wrong for some group of users doesn't get us very far, because the other term is also just as wrong for another group of users. older ≠ wiser 23:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, enough disagreement. I want to set this straight, once. Better balancing the namespace for tire vs. tyre readers is my original aim, not necessarily a redirect. I am pragmatic - if a disambiguation page at tyre is the only way to get consensus, then I want everyone to decide on that. It is my proposal, and I'll clarify it if I want to. Just tell me if you want to see that written elsewhere other than this comment. Widefox 00:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
now that's made me laugh... Cabot The discover of America - a disambiguation page! Widefox 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
As an Australian, tyres are on wheels and hard work makes you tire, but I've read enough comics and websites to know how North Americans spell things. If you look at media quantity, then the Queen's english is already effectively an older fading version of North American, and ancient Tyre was here before pneumatic tyres. I became briefly perturbed by ft.lbf, but tyre.tire, as long as it can be found. Seasalt 12:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've placed this commented text here, and replaced it with a small note to discourage new insertion.
The film Ben-Hur's chariot race did not use the hippodrome as its setting. It was filmed on a set constructed on 18 acres of backlot at Cinecitta Studios outside Rome. The silent Ben-Hur also did not use it. Note that a real stadium would not have a big 'island' in the middle blocking the view the race. Reference: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052618/trivia Widefox 16:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
If the city is sometimes referred to as "Sour" I think that it should be noted in the article. Someone thought it was important enough to add a disambiguation link to basic taste, which sour redirects to. Note: later someone else erased part of the disambiguation notice and I fixed it. I did not add it myself. If the city is not referred to by this name, the disambiguation link should be removed from basic taste. There is a good chance that I will not come back to this talk page, as my time on Wikipedia is currently sporadic and I'll forget about it. Therefore, I suggest that someone who is knowledgeable about the subject take care of it. -- Kjkolb 05:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
To put this in context...On the disambig we have:
1) A regional-specific spelling of an extremely common word 2) A large city in Lebanon 3) A town with a population of less than 1,000 people 4) Another town with a population of less than 1,000 people
I do not believe that anybody can seriously argue that 3 and 4 are comparable alongside 1 and 2.
I see, therefore, that we have 2 viable options:
1) 'tyre' goes directly to tire and the disambig at the top remains 2) 'tyre' goes directly to tyre (Lebanon) and a disambig is added to the page
Wikipedia looks terrible when a very common word is linking to (basically) nothing. It should go to one of the 2 and have a disambig within, there is nothing to be gained by having an extra step for EVERY SINGLE user regardless of which type they are looking for when you could only affect the searches of (presuming 50/50 split of what users are searching for) 50%. In reality this could well be 75% are looking for Tyre (tire) and only 25% the city in Lebanon (with an extremely small amount looking for the other version).
This talk page is already full of debate about the organisational structure of wikipedia, lets come to an agreement and link this to one or the other, because as it stands we have the worst of both worlds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ny156uk ( talk • contribs)
Please excuse me if the formatting for my message is poor.
I just had a question about how to post a "cultural reference" for Tyre/Sidon. Amie Cesaire uses the images of "Tyre" and "Sidon" in his book "Notebook on a Return to the Native Land," and I think it is worthy of mention in the article. I have read copyright information before, but it's still kind of confusing. I am curious to know if my posting something like
"Amie Cesaire mentions Tyre and Sidon in his book, 'Notebook on a Return to the Native Land.'"
would be a violation of copyright, or perhaps too simplistic? I am reluctant to try to interpret what Cesaire means by using the cities in his poetry, because I feel like that is outside of the scope of listing it as a cultural "reference."
I can provide all publishing information and page numbers regarding MY source for the citation.
Thanks in advance -- Bohemoth 19:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Is tyria in
Guild Wars a referance? Tyria and tyrians and ascalon looks quite like it--
Slogankid 20:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
how do you pronounce the name Tyre in English?-- Sonjaaa 13:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What's the name of the Island that Tyre is on? Tyre Island? -- Armanalp ( talk) 17:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. -- Armanalp ( talk) 14:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I see a few tantalizing bits about the Tyrian games, which seem to be closely related to the Olympics. As much as I can make out (I can't access the best looking reference at [1]) the Tyrians held quintennial games dedicated to the Tyrian Baal, Melqart. From the various Wikipedia articles, apparently Melqart was accepted as synonymous with the Olympian Heracles (one of the Twelve Olympians and possibly distinct from the heroic Heracles). Apparently there were major revisions at the Tyrian temple (to "Zeus Olympius" or "Ba'al Shamayim") around the tenth century BC which established it in the Greek cultural orbit. However I'm finding claims that a stadium in Amrit, Syria actually predated the Greek Olympics and that the Phoenicians actually started the Olympics idea. [2] Apparently Israeli participation in the Tyrian games under Jason the High Priest was the source of a major conflict in 186 BC. [3] I haven't figured out yet whether Alexander the Great's stated desire to worship in the temple to Zeus Olympius was related to these games directly. Ruins of the stadium persist to this day. [4]
I think it would be very interesting for someone familiar with the archaeological literature to look into this and clarify what is known about the origin of the Tyrian games and whether they are cause or effect of the Greek Olympics.
It is ironic to imagine that such a flamboyantly Christian country as the U.S. has avoided laws against blasphemy but has passed an act of Congress to protect the symbol of the games founded ? in worship of Baal... Wnt ( talk) 03:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm engaged in an edit-war on Bible prophecy (I've already sent a WP:3RR report) with a user who insists that Tyre has been destroyed and no longer exists. The problem is that Ezekiel prophesied its destruction: therefore of course it can't exist, right? Here's the paragraph that I deleted as inaccurate, and he keeps reinstating:
"The island city was destroyed by Alexander the Great during the Siege of Tyre and its residents were enslaved. Alexander used the debris from the destroyed mainland city to build a causeway to the island city. The Phoenicians never rebuilt Tyre. Numerous other empires and countries have rebuilt the city at or near the site of the original only to have them destroyed. The fishing village of Sur is now located at the original site of Tyre."
I can no longer correct this without violating 3RR. -- Robert Stevens ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hardly. Tyre WAS destroyed but it was rebuilt by other empires. I never stated that Tyre did not exist. You're using a straw-man. 64.231.99.114 ( talk) 21:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Only a small portion of the city is located on the original site. The buildings on the original site of Tyre cover an area of a few hundred meters by a few hundred meters, hardly a city. 64.231.99.114 ( talk) 22:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
It covers half of the former island (go to Google Earth and look), including the entire northern harbour region. The rest of the "fishing village" won't fit, because Tyre is now far too big to fit. -- Robert Stevens ( talk) 22:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
The Biblical prophecy of Tyre's destruction makes no reference to Alexander whatsoever. It very explicitly claims Nebuchadnezzar will do it (and it turns out Nebuchadnezzar was unsuccessful). This guy's claim that Tyre was destroyed and never rebuilt may indeed be wrong, but his argument not necessarily based on Biblical literalism. Apokalyps2547 ( talk) 22:56, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
NOTE: The reference [19] links to a wrong event.
"Tyre was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years. From 586 until 573 BC, the city was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar II[18] until Tyre agreed to pay a tribute.[19]"
The reference [19] links to: http://www.attalus.org/bc4/year315.html#20 But it does not deal with 586-573 BC, but with 315 BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.89.230.136 ( talk) 10:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
This article would really benefit from more information on what the city is like today in terms of infrastructure, rebuilding etc. at the present time, particularly considering damage in the Israeli invasion etc. Caspar esq. ( talk) 13:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
A line reads "A king of Cyprus had taken Tyre with his fleet in the 370s BC, "a remarkable success about which little is known," Robin Lane Fox remarked." It would appear from http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/cyprus/kition/i.html that The king of Kition, Cyprus, BC 392-361 BC. was Melekiathon. He has no article. Not trying for WP:OR here, just puzzled why we can not at least put a name to the attacker. Student7 ( talk) 17:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the reference to Jesus visiting the area really come under "cultural references" since there does not appear to be any corroborating evidence from a contemporary historical source? -- Archstanton ( talk) 15:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Some material reads: "Common leisure activities can be enjoyed throughout the year. Cycling, camping, wildlife photography, snorkeling and scuba diving are best enjoyed during spring and summer, and bird watching is best during spring and autumn."
It was listed under a section, "Tyre Coast Natural Reserve", which does not follow standard nomenclature for a city page. Perhaps should be under "Geography."
Wikipedia is not WikiVoyage nor WikiTravel. Nor is it WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of all information. It is an encyclopedia. This is "chatty" and frivolous in nature. It attempts to inform the reader when to plan her/his trip to Tyre (violating WP:NOTHOW). It is WP:BOOSTER-ism. A bit self-conscious WP:PEACOCK-ism. Neither is it cited by a WP:RS. To try to justify it's existence, I moved it to an "Economy-Tourism" subsection. It was reverted.
I also tried to shorten another sentence under the umbrella of Keep it simple. It was reverted at the same time. Student7 ( talk) 23:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
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What is the use of including any of the prophecy stuff? Wikipedia is not here to prove or disprove Bible prophecies. The entire section is pointless. Adam Bishop ( talk) 02:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The history-section includes defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high (with ref to Lorenzi, Rossella (May 21, 2007). Sandbar Aided Alexander the Great. Discovery News). Could someone confirm; 46 m sounds like an awful lot to me. Poul G ( talk) 15:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be more mention of the Phoenicians, since many of them came from Tyre and established colonies all over the Mediterranean, plus Carthage? I'm no expert so not sure how to start, but I came here to read more and didn't find much. From this article it just seems like the city was captured a few times and that's it. -- AW ( talk) 18:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Greetings and felicitations. I just finished extensive edits on the article, largely to cleanup image placement, as in wide browser windows the appendices were very badly overrun, and to add a Too many photos template. Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns about this. I would appreciate it if you do, that you please notify me. — DocWatson42 ( talk) 06:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The readable prose-size is currently 125kB. This is overly long based on WP:SIZERULE. The existing suggestion to split out the historical content into a new article is sensible. I see the article is currently a Good Article nominee. My view is that it should be split, before either of the resultant articles are assessed against the GA criteria. Marshelec ( talk) 05:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
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60,000 people in 4 km^2 (city) = 15,000 people per km^2.
174,000 people in 17 km^2 (metro) = more than 10,000 people per km^2.
If the numbers are true, I think this is the densest place on Earth. Aminabzz ( talk) 18:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)