This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mikereynolds4444.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Locke's complete disregard for the African slave trade in this article? All his arguments concerning slavery obliterate any rationale for the African trade, so how could this be justifiable from a Lockean perspective? It is interesting to note that Locke had substantial investments in the trade. Either way, Locke completely ignores the natural rights of Africans and their slavery which is infinitely more prominent in his society than the slavery he depicts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.238.22.96 ( talk) 03:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The claim that most scholars "roundly reject" Locke as apologising for slavery is not borne out by my research (Locke, Natural Law, and New World Slavery James Farr Political Theory , Vol. 36, No. 4 (Aug., 2008), pp. 495-522 Published by: Sage Publications, Inc. Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20452649
For example, seems to say otherwise, as do others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.189.1 ( talk) 04:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I do Lincoln-Douglas Debate and it would be a great help if someone could answer this: Did Locke believe that only the people had the right of revolution, or did he believe that an outside force had the right to maintain human rights? Sir Elderberry 14:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This was requested on June 4, 2005! Of Civil Government refers to the Second Treatise only: the title of the whole work is Two Treatises of Government. Those with university access can probably check a page image of the title page at Early English Books Online, if your university subscribes to the service, but I don't think this should be a controversial change. I'd post the picture, but ProQuest has the copyright for this particular image. -- RJC 17:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In the beginning of the article it is said:
"Locke claims in the Preface to the work that its purpose is to justify William of Orange's ascension to the throne of England after the Glorious Revolution of 1688, though recent scholarship has suggested that the bulk of the writing was completed between 1679-1682."
Towards the end it is said: "However, in his seminal edition of the Two Treatises, Peter Laslett has placed much of Locke's political philosophy within its historical context, resulting in the view that Locke's thesis of the legitimate right to rebellion reflects a desire to legitimise the 1689 Glorious Revolution." This is conflicting, either the first part needs to be placed down towards the bottom, to make it apparent that this idea is being refuted, or one of the two needs to be removed. -anonymous April 29, 2006
--I understand what you mean, but these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, Locke's work is both a governmental treatise and tract. Historically, it served both purposes, refuting Filmer's argument about patrilinear kingship, and thus simultaneously justifying the Revolution and William's ascension. LifeScience 17:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Commencing major rewrite- I haven't deleted any content (except to correct some errors), though I have added quite a bit and provided a structure for more to be added. I have also brought the formatting more in line with the Style Guide. So long as there is not major opposition to this overhaul, I plan to work on it over the coming weeks. I feel this is necessary for a couple of reasons. First, the article as it stands is very sparse and focuses only on property. Second, and more controversially, I think that what is there is misleading. Locke is taken by some to be the champion of an incipent capitalism, and some do interpret him as being simply the defender of a certain class interest (society as the protection of the propertied). This interpretation is losing ground, however, and I haven't seen it seriously advanced in years. Locke is known in most circles, however, as an advocate of natural rights and of the right of revolution, and the article should reflect this.
To maintain NPOV, however, I suggest expanding the scope of the article. There should be a greater discussion of Locke's theory of natural rights, the state of nature, the law of nature, and parental power, along with the concern for estate, in the justification for political society. I would also suggest that there should be some focus on what legitimate government looks like in the Two Treatises: the rule of law, separation of powers, the law of nature in society, prerogative, etc.
I think that additional subcategories should be added to the categories I have inserted into the text. This will preserve a coherent organizational structure as further edits occur.
I hope this meets with general approval. -- RJC 19:50, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. -- violet/riga (t) 20:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marudubshinki is posting false information about Lockean ideals. I attempted to correct the falsehoods, but he reverted it. Specifically, Marudubshinki upholds that a liberal democracy is a "moral imperative" following Locke's guidelines. Nothing could be further from the truth. I submit two credible sources to disprove this lie. From Stanford's online encyclopedia of philosophy ( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/): "
Ruth Grant has persuasively argued that the establishment of civil government is in effect a two step process. Universal consent is necessary to form a political community. Consent to join a community once given is binding and cannot be withdrawn. This makes political communities stable. Grant writes: "Having established that the membership in a community entails the obligation to abide by the will of the community, the question remains: Who rules?" (Grant, 1987 p. 115) The answer to this question is determined by majority rule. The point is that universal consent is necessary to establish a political community, majority consent to answer the question who is to rule such a community. Universal consent and majority consent are thus different in kind, not just in degree. Grant writes:
Locke's argument for the right of the majority is the theoretical ground for the distinction between duty to society and duty to government, the distinction that permits an argument for resistance without anarchy. When the designated government dissolves, men remain obligated to society acting through majority rule. It is entirely possible for the majority to confer the rule of the community on a king and his heirs, or a group of oligarchs or on a democratic assembly. Thus, the social contract is not inextricably linked to democracy. Still, a government of any kind must perform the legitimate function of a civil government."
Secondly, I submit a selection from Jackson Spievolgel's Western Civilization: Since 1500. I quote, "Locke was hardly an advocate of political democracy..." found on page 430.
I ask that Marudubshinki, or anyone else who feels that Locke demands a democracy, to post information suggesting otherwise.
I'm removing this heading, which has no information. It seems adequately covered under the "Property" section and I don't see how it could be divided without essentially fracturing the section. I suppose if someone was willing it could be added but it is currently useless. -- Jackson 10:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It is required both grammatically and stylistically to maintain the present tense when writing about a literary work or other writing. Although I have only made minor grammatical changes to improve the mechanical aspects of this article, I would sincerely recommend that the entire article be written as to maintain the present tense. At the moment, it is slightly awkward to read. For example, before my changes, a sentence read: "If a state overstepped its..." Clearly, "if" applies to a future situation, and should not be referred to in past tense. Further, Locke's ideas and concepts are not limited to the text's time period. Though people may no longer agree with it, or it is not considered a 'contemporary' political document, the text is still in existence, and therefore, applies in a present tense. Although this in itself is not a large change with regards to the general content (which I find correct), it is an important edit that effects the overall readability, and by extension, the academic 'feel' of the article. LifeScience 17:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
There should clearly be some mention of Filmer here as there are a large number of scholars who believe that Locke was responding to Filmer's Patriarchia in the Two Treatises as well. The focus on Hobbes is deceiving. Awadewit 23:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that we need two new sections: "Historical context" (to explain the broader history surrounding this text - it will be obscure to many readers, I think) and "Reception" (how was Locke's work received in the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? how was it used?). Awadewit 19:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Would anybody be opposed to my cutting the "Interpretations" section and trying to work the interpretations into the discussion of the Treatises itself? To me the section is privileging an obscure academic debate of the Treatise and skews the focus of the article away from the primary text. By trying to integrate the interpretations into a discussion about the text, I feel that we would be giving more weight to the text rather than to the critics, which is what I believe the page is supposed to do. Awadewit Talk 07:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have the citations for the rest of this page? I don't want to put little fact tags everywhere, but a lot of this material needs to be cited. Awadewit Talk 04:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This article really does need citations for the parts of the essays quoted at a minimum, so they can be found more easily and read in context by someone wishing to go more indepth. I would do it, but I havent read all of the Second Treatise.-- Metallurgist ( talk) 17:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
i have added republicanism category, because locke was a typical representative of classical republicanism. but i would like to remowe classical liberalism category because liberalism is modern invention and there were no classical form of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.112.35.81 ( talk) 00:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I was the one who cut this paragraph of text from the article, which was then reversed.
Fair enough for the reversal; it was probably excessive on my part to cut it. However, it is a problematic piece of text, because it combines two issues: 1. Locke's relation to Hobbes, 2. Whether Locke intended this as a philosophic tract or a merely political one. The structure of the paragraph suggests that the answer to (1) hinges on our judgment about (2), but this seems clearly mistaken. It's quite possible that Locke could have intended this as a philosophical tract without having ever read Hobbes: he could have been responding to other elements of natural law theory or theology, etc., even without Hobbes' involvement in any way. So the question of their relation does not directly impact the literary character of the Two Treatises as a philosophic tract.
I described this as the introduction of POV because it coheres as an account primarily in light of an assumption that Locke was writing under persecution, so that he could not openly acknowledge his debts to Hobbes, even though he intended to write something that would be clear to attentive philosophical readers in the future. Thus this paragraph sets up only two options: that Locke wrote a philosophical tract without naming Hobbes under conditions of persecution, or that he didn't have any view on Hobbes and should be read in light of historicist presumptions (meaning in this case historical determinism). This set of options obviously doesn't exhaust the possibilities, however; plenty of people think Locke wrote a philosophic tract, but primarily in serious engagement with the religious and other views of his time - see e.g. Waldron's book.
Anyway, I've tried to rephrase the paragraph introduction, to make clear that the stakes of this paragraph only involve the Strauss/Cambridge School disagreement, rather than academic views on Locke as such. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.130.39 ( talk) 21:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
In regard to another recent revert: you pointed me toward sections 123-126 about a lack of interest in justice or indifference to it. In fact, the relevant line is in 124: "yet men being biassed by their interest, as well as ignorant for want of study of it, are not apt to allow of it as a law binding to them in the application of it to their particular cases." Note the latter part of this sentence, which states his logical claim: men are bad judges of their own case. This doesn't show a lack of interest in justice. What it shows is a recurrent failure to judge well in one's own case, which is why we need a neutral judge. The point is about general reliability in one's own case, not about a rejection of justice. The other points just have to do with determinacy and enforcement, again not things that show that most people lack a respect for justice. There are some few who are like lions and tigers, and therefore enemies of mankind, but most people are respecters of the law of nature who make errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:2300:13F:1D9E:7539:9178:C4B0 ( talk) 20:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This section is not cited, and is written like a piece of Locke exegesis. It also contains claims that seem to be howlers, e.g., that there's some sort of near-consensus among Locke scholars that Locke wasn't trying to justify slavery. Look, a lot of people write about Locke in academia. Pick any bad thing, and there's probably someone who's trying to make a career showing that Locke defended it. Here's a good article evincing the lack of consensus about Locke's stance on slavery; " http://www.jstor.org/stable/2709512?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents". (Even though it's a paywall, you can read the first paragraph to get the idea.) I realize that it's unpleasant to delete existing content, but as it stands the present section seems misleading more than informative. Or if someone wants to rewrite it, by all means. 50.191.21.222 ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
I went back to this edit [1] and eliminated some old vandalism and a few paragraphs added by one of the vandals that is unsourced and appears to be unrelated to the topic (see [2]). I'm not sure I caught everything so someone might want to followup. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 23:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The two sections on the two treatises need to be properly structured so that they both are similar in layout. The first is not sectioned out like the second and the intro to the second could use some expanding, along with proper citation of the first paragraph.
The article could also use more information on the reception of the work, perhaps even a section on modern influence. This section could include a picture of the modern print of the book.
Mikereynolds4444 ( talk) 05:16, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mikereynolds4444.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Locke's complete disregard for the African slave trade in this article? All his arguments concerning slavery obliterate any rationale for the African trade, so how could this be justifiable from a Lockean perspective? It is interesting to note that Locke had substantial investments in the trade. Either way, Locke completely ignores the natural rights of Africans and their slavery which is infinitely more prominent in his society than the slavery he depicts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.238.22.96 ( talk) 03:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The claim that most scholars "roundly reject" Locke as apologising for slavery is not borne out by my research (Locke, Natural Law, and New World Slavery James Farr Political Theory , Vol. 36, No. 4 (Aug., 2008), pp. 495-522 Published by: Sage Publications, Inc. Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20452649
For example, seems to say otherwise, as do others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.189.1 ( talk) 04:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I do Lincoln-Douglas Debate and it would be a great help if someone could answer this: Did Locke believe that only the people had the right of revolution, or did he believe that an outside force had the right to maintain human rights? Sir Elderberry 14:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This was requested on June 4, 2005! Of Civil Government refers to the Second Treatise only: the title of the whole work is Two Treatises of Government. Those with university access can probably check a page image of the title page at Early English Books Online, if your university subscribes to the service, but I don't think this should be a controversial change. I'd post the picture, but ProQuest has the copyright for this particular image. -- RJC 17:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In the beginning of the article it is said:
"Locke claims in the Preface to the work that its purpose is to justify William of Orange's ascension to the throne of England after the Glorious Revolution of 1688, though recent scholarship has suggested that the bulk of the writing was completed between 1679-1682."
Towards the end it is said: "However, in his seminal edition of the Two Treatises, Peter Laslett has placed much of Locke's political philosophy within its historical context, resulting in the view that Locke's thesis of the legitimate right to rebellion reflects a desire to legitimise the 1689 Glorious Revolution." This is conflicting, either the first part needs to be placed down towards the bottom, to make it apparent that this idea is being refuted, or one of the two needs to be removed. -anonymous April 29, 2006
--I understand what you mean, but these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, Locke's work is both a governmental treatise and tract. Historically, it served both purposes, refuting Filmer's argument about patrilinear kingship, and thus simultaneously justifying the Revolution and William's ascension. LifeScience 17:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Commencing major rewrite- I haven't deleted any content (except to correct some errors), though I have added quite a bit and provided a structure for more to be added. I have also brought the formatting more in line with the Style Guide. So long as there is not major opposition to this overhaul, I plan to work on it over the coming weeks. I feel this is necessary for a couple of reasons. First, the article as it stands is very sparse and focuses only on property. Second, and more controversially, I think that what is there is misleading. Locke is taken by some to be the champion of an incipent capitalism, and some do interpret him as being simply the defender of a certain class interest (society as the protection of the propertied). This interpretation is losing ground, however, and I haven't seen it seriously advanced in years. Locke is known in most circles, however, as an advocate of natural rights and of the right of revolution, and the article should reflect this.
To maintain NPOV, however, I suggest expanding the scope of the article. There should be a greater discussion of Locke's theory of natural rights, the state of nature, the law of nature, and parental power, along with the concern for estate, in the justification for political society. I would also suggest that there should be some focus on what legitimate government looks like in the Two Treatises: the rule of law, separation of powers, the law of nature in society, prerogative, etc.
I think that additional subcategories should be added to the categories I have inserted into the text. This will preserve a coherent organizational structure as further edits occur.
I hope this meets with general approval. -- RJC 19:50, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. -- violet/riga (t) 20:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Marudubshinki is posting false information about Lockean ideals. I attempted to correct the falsehoods, but he reverted it. Specifically, Marudubshinki upholds that a liberal democracy is a "moral imperative" following Locke's guidelines. Nothing could be further from the truth. I submit two credible sources to disprove this lie. From Stanford's online encyclopedia of philosophy ( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/): "
Ruth Grant has persuasively argued that the establishment of civil government is in effect a two step process. Universal consent is necessary to form a political community. Consent to join a community once given is binding and cannot be withdrawn. This makes political communities stable. Grant writes: "Having established that the membership in a community entails the obligation to abide by the will of the community, the question remains: Who rules?" (Grant, 1987 p. 115) The answer to this question is determined by majority rule. The point is that universal consent is necessary to establish a political community, majority consent to answer the question who is to rule such a community. Universal consent and majority consent are thus different in kind, not just in degree. Grant writes:
Locke's argument for the right of the majority is the theoretical ground for the distinction between duty to society and duty to government, the distinction that permits an argument for resistance without anarchy. When the designated government dissolves, men remain obligated to society acting through majority rule. It is entirely possible for the majority to confer the rule of the community on a king and his heirs, or a group of oligarchs or on a democratic assembly. Thus, the social contract is not inextricably linked to democracy. Still, a government of any kind must perform the legitimate function of a civil government."
Secondly, I submit a selection from Jackson Spievolgel's Western Civilization: Since 1500. I quote, "Locke was hardly an advocate of political democracy..." found on page 430.
I ask that Marudubshinki, or anyone else who feels that Locke demands a democracy, to post information suggesting otherwise.
I'm removing this heading, which has no information. It seems adequately covered under the "Property" section and I don't see how it could be divided without essentially fracturing the section. I suppose if someone was willing it could be added but it is currently useless. -- Jackson 10:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It is required both grammatically and stylistically to maintain the present tense when writing about a literary work or other writing. Although I have only made minor grammatical changes to improve the mechanical aspects of this article, I would sincerely recommend that the entire article be written as to maintain the present tense. At the moment, it is slightly awkward to read. For example, before my changes, a sentence read: "If a state overstepped its..." Clearly, "if" applies to a future situation, and should not be referred to in past tense. Further, Locke's ideas and concepts are not limited to the text's time period. Though people may no longer agree with it, or it is not considered a 'contemporary' political document, the text is still in existence, and therefore, applies in a present tense. Although this in itself is not a large change with regards to the general content (which I find correct), it is an important edit that effects the overall readability, and by extension, the academic 'feel' of the article. LifeScience 17:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
There should clearly be some mention of Filmer here as there are a large number of scholars who believe that Locke was responding to Filmer's Patriarchia in the Two Treatises as well. The focus on Hobbes is deceiving. Awadewit 23:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that we need two new sections: "Historical context" (to explain the broader history surrounding this text - it will be obscure to many readers, I think) and "Reception" (how was Locke's work received in the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? how was it used?). Awadewit 19:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Would anybody be opposed to my cutting the "Interpretations" section and trying to work the interpretations into the discussion of the Treatises itself? To me the section is privileging an obscure academic debate of the Treatise and skews the focus of the article away from the primary text. By trying to integrate the interpretations into a discussion about the text, I feel that we would be giving more weight to the text rather than to the critics, which is what I believe the page is supposed to do. Awadewit Talk 07:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have the citations for the rest of this page? I don't want to put little fact tags everywhere, but a lot of this material needs to be cited. Awadewit Talk 04:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This article really does need citations for the parts of the essays quoted at a minimum, so they can be found more easily and read in context by someone wishing to go more indepth. I would do it, but I havent read all of the Second Treatise.-- Metallurgist ( talk) 17:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
i have added republicanism category, because locke was a typical representative of classical republicanism. but i would like to remowe classical liberalism category because liberalism is modern invention and there were no classical form of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.112.35.81 ( talk) 00:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I was the one who cut this paragraph of text from the article, which was then reversed.
Fair enough for the reversal; it was probably excessive on my part to cut it. However, it is a problematic piece of text, because it combines two issues: 1. Locke's relation to Hobbes, 2. Whether Locke intended this as a philosophic tract or a merely political one. The structure of the paragraph suggests that the answer to (1) hinges on our judgment about (2), but this seems clearly mistaken. It's quite possible that Locke could have intended this as a philosophical tract without having ever read Hobbes: he could have been responding to other elements of natural law theory or theology, etc., even without Hobbes' involvement in any way. So the question of their relation does not directly impact the literary character of the Two Treatises as a philosophic tract.
I described this as the introduction of POV because it coheres as an account primarily in light of an assumption that Locke was writing under persecution, so that he could not openly acknowledge his debts to Hobbes, even though he intended to write something that would be clear to attentive philosophical readers in the future. Thus this paragraph sets up only two options: that Locke wrote a philosophical tract without naming Hobbes under conditions of persecution, or that he didn't have any view on Hobbes and should be read in light of historicist presumptions (meaning in this case historical determinism). This set of options obviously doesn't exhaust the possibilities, however; plenty of people think Locke wrote a philosophic tract, but primarily in serious engagement with the religious and other views of his time - see e.g. Waldron's book.
Anyway, I've tried to rephrase the paragraph introduction, to make clear that the stakes of this paragraph only involve the Strauss/Cambridge School disagreement, rather than academic views on Locke as such. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.130.39 ( talk) 21:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
In regard to another recent revert: you pointed me toward sections 123-126 about a lack of interest in justice or indifference to it. In fact, the relevant line is in 124: "yet men being biassed by their interest, as well as ignorant for want of study of it, are not apt to allow of it as a law binding to them in the application of it to their particular cases." Note the latter part of this sentence, which states his logical claim: men are bad judges of their own case. This doesn't show a lack of interest in justice. What it shows is a recurrent failure to judge well in one's own case, which is why we need a neutral judge. The point is about general reliability in one's own case, not about a rejection of justice. The other points just have to do with determinacy and enforcement, again not things that show that most people lack a respect for justice. There are some few who are like lions and tigers, and therefore enemies of mankind, but most people are respecters of the law of nature who make errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:2300:13F:1D9E:7539:9178:C4B0 ( talk) 20:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This section is not cited, and is written like a piece of Locke exegesis. It also contains claims that seem to be howlers, e.g., that there's some sort of near-consensus among Locke scholars that Locke wasn't trying to justify slavery. Look, a lot of people write about Locke in academia. Pick any bad thing, and there's probably someone who's trying to make a career showing that Locke defended it. Here's a good article evincing the lack of consensus about Locke's stance on slavery; " http://www.jstor.org/stable/2709512?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents". (Even though it's a paywall, you can read the first paragraph to get the idea.) I realize that it's unpleasant to delete existing content, but as it stands the present section seems misleading more than informative. Or if someone wants to rewrite it, by all means. 50.191.21.222 ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
I went back to this edit [1] and eliminated some old vandalism and a few paragraphs added by one of the vandals that is unsourced and appears to be unrelated to the topic (see [2]). I'm not sure I caught everything so someone might want to followup. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 23:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The two sections on the two treatises need to be properly structured so that they both are similar in layout. The first is not sectioned out like the second and the intro to the second could use some expanding, along with proper citation of the first paragraph.
The article could also use more information on the reception of the work, perhaps even a section on modern influence. This section could include a picture of the modern print of the book.
Mikereynolds4444 ( talk) 05:16, 29 January 2018 (UTC)