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Firstly, the referendum in Ireland, which I was present for before during and after, is a subject worthy of an independent Wikipedia artical in itself. Such a title could be "2008 Irish Rejection of the Lisbon Treaty". For example, in the Background section, links are provided to the independent articles "France in May 2005" and "Netherlands in June 2005".
All other issues with the page concern the unprofessional, and blatantly laughable, corruption of this article by a pro-EU writer. Its pretty outrageous stuff. This is evident in sections such as "Referendum", which instead talks about how the Political parties (not the people of Ireland) supported the treaty, as evidenced below.
Paragraph 1 of the "Referendum" section starts with:
"Events The government parties of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats were in favour of the treaty, but the other government party, the Green Party, was divided on the issue. At a special convention on 19 January 2008, the leadership of the Green Party failed to secure a two-thirds majority required to make support for the referendum official party policy. The result of the vote was 63% in favour. [...] all Green Party members of the Oireachtas supported the Treaty.[7][8] The main opposition parties of Fine Gael[9] and the Labour Party were also in favour. Only one party represented in the Oireachtas, Sinn Féin, was opposed to the treaty"
- Under the Referendum section, this is 100% Irrelevant, and is an example of blatant propaganda that seeks to lie to the readers of Wikipedia to frame the referendum in a pro-Treaty light.
Paragraph 2 of the same section starts:
"The then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern warned against making Ireland a 'battlefield' for eurosceptics across Europe."
Paragraph 5 of the section starts:
"At the start of May, the Irish Alliance for Europe launched its campaign for a Yes vote in the referendum this consisted of trade unionists, business people, academics and politicians. Its members include..."
Paragraph 6 starts:
"On 21 May 2008, the executive council of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions voted to support a Yes vote in the referendum" (and goes on to cite 5 more examples of pro-Lisbon voting.
In a referendum where the People of Ireland (you know, Democracy or whatever) voted No, and in many cases vehemently so, with protests and rallies in the center of Dublin and a vast majority of plackards resisting the Lisbon Treaty, with virtually no visibility of Yes voters to be seen anywhere in Dublin center, the number of mentions of "Yes" in this hideous excuse for an article are obviously misplaced.
Section: Opinion Polls
The sources of this data must be questioned due to the fact that it seems they have been selected to reflect the Yes vote, even though the actual referendum brought a No majority.
Section: Results
By now the ridiculousness of this article is evident and somewhat entertaining, and this continues when the same person or another pro-Treaty user has not been able to bring themselves to write in their own words a summary at the top of the section, saying that the people of Ireland democratically REJECTED the Lisbon Treaty. Instead they probably deleted such a summary by somebody else, of which there is none. No declaration in words in the results section that the referendum resulted in a No vote.
Section: Reasons for Rejection
"Ireland has begun to cast a sceptical[37] eye on the EU and general concerns about how Europe is developing were raised.[38] As of Spring 2007, the Irish citizenry have the second least European identity in the EU, with 59% identifying as exclusively Irish as opposed to wholly/partly European.[39] The integrationist aspects of the Lisbon treaty were therefore also of concern.[40] Few expressed specifically anti-EU statements, but pro-EU sentiments were interpreted[41] or expressed[42] in favour of an idealised/desired EU and expressed concern about its present form or the future direction of the EU post-Lisbon. To keep Ireland's power and identity,[43] voters chose to vote "no"."
- Is this a qualified, aggregated, ballanced and multi-contributor diagnosis? Is this paragraph, or its writer, qualified to speak on behalf of millions of people without review? Their only resource is a couple of newspaper articles. Surely professional researchers and quantitative data should be directly cited. They wont be of course, because there is no evidence to suggest that most No voters "express pro-EU sentiments" as this user claims.
My favorite part is probably this:
In September 2008 rumours in Brussels indicated that US billionaires and neocons heavily influenced the Irish vote by sponsoring the "No" campaigns".
I dont think any explanation is needed as to why this deceit has no place in academic discourse.
"It is said that US interest groups this way pursued their goal of hindering the European Union to become a stronger partner internationally." It is also said that the writer of this section has severe mental problems. The paragraph on how the US "sponsored" individual No votes in an Irish referendum, which I for one as a witness in Dublin saw no evidence for whatsoever, is the sort of thing that has lead to Wikipedia to be discredited, and academically unsourceable.
After the tables show the most common reasons that the majority of the people voted No, the same writer presumably, has added "French Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet blamed "American neoconservatives" for the Irish voter's rejection of the treaty." dispite the fact that even a potentially Pro-EU-biased survey has found that 0% of No voters said they voted because of the influence of foreign politicians. Which, ironically, is precisely what they are opposed to.
FINAL NOTES:
1. The photograph is biased, showing as it does two Yes posters above one No poster at the bottom. In most of central Dublin, the No posters (and later the No Means No posters) were omnipotent, while "Yes" posters were fairly scarce, and lampposts with 2 yes posters on top would have been a rare exception, hinting again at Wikipedia user bias.
2. The "see Also" list could be far more comprehensive, and as suggested above, should include a link to the Twenty-eighth Ammendment of the Constitution Bill 2008 (Ireland), which should be a seperate article from the one about the Irish Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
Le Pen? No reason for him to be mentioned in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.244.63.128 ( talk) 12:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This selection of quotes has little to do with the Irish referendum, and is misleading and extremely POV. If approperiate anywhere, it must be in the Treaty of Lisbon article. To say that the Constitution-Lisbon changes are only cosmetic, is simply wrong. Don't reinsert it. - 04:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing official until it is decided by the the minister for the environment. This date of June 12 2008 is subject to change. Please do not state this as gospel until confirmed by order of the minister. 89.204.197.161 ( talk) 07:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I have moved this article inline with other failed amendments to the Constitution of Ireland, e.g. Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 2002. Snappy56 ( talk) 16:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The map is squishing the results table. Might it be a suitable image to have at the top of the article when filled in, to show the extent to which this bill failed at the polling booths? - JVG ( talk) 16:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a confused American trying to understand what exactly this treaty is and why anyone would vote against it. This article is really lacking a decent summary of what so many Irish found unappealing about it. There is a huge section on what political groups did or did not support it, but not their reasons for doing so.
The best information I could find on the matter was in one of the images. It was a sign that sound "no privatization of healthcare and education" or something along those lines. It's pretty bad when the images are more helpful than the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.140.142 ( talk) 21:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Edwin Larkin ( talk) 16:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
As well as explaining the arguments of both sides, as the previous section suggests, we also urgently need a reaction section. This should perhaps be on the main Treaty page rather than this page, but in either case a crosslinked summary on the other page is required. jnestorius( talk) 08:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The line: "To preserve Ireland's power and identity therefore voters chose to vote "No"" was a non-sequitur from what went before. Rather than rewrite all the preceding, I added to the line, to arrive at "Few expressed specifically anti-EU statements, but pro-EU sentiments were interpreted[41] or expressed[42] in favour of an idealised/desired EU and against its present form or its predicted form post-Lisbon. To some extent to preserve Ireland's power and identity, therefore, but also out of a concern about the future direction of Europe, for all Europeans, not simply as concerns the Irish, voters chose to vote "No"". (BB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.147.197 ( talk) 22:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
To suggest concern regarding the death penalty as a possible reason for the "no" vote is absolutley disingenuous, and suggests a (willful?) misreading of the cited article. A number of the "reasons" cited throughout this entry are also misrepresentations of the reasons for the vote (and, to say the least, often forced readings of the sources cited - the detention of three-year-olds as a reason for the "no" vote being another notable example, citing an article which is openly tongue-in-cheek (micro-chippng of future conscripts is also mentioned in the article, though not quoted in the wikipedia entry)), written from what would seem to be a markedly biased viewpoint, and aiming only to vilify, belittle, and indeed ridicule, the "no" position. (BB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.26.145 ( talk) 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Are those results correct? The percentages add up to 105! 83.70.235.251 ( talk) 22:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a standard Wikipedia CSS class for tables, called "wikitable". That sets colours and borders in a way which is consistent across articles, and in general it should be used with minimum adornment, to ensure consistency and readability.
I can see no specific case for applying markup to this article; there may be a general case for changing the CSS in particular implementations of the class "wikitable", but nothing that I can see which applies specifically to this article and not to others. In other words, if you want to change the way in which tables displayed on wikipedia, then the appropriate course of action is to go to the appropriate place to argue for them all being changed, rather than just adding style markup to this particular table in this articles.
Adding the colourings and borders can be disruptive to the reader. Like most users, I use the default monobook theme, and you markup works in that theme, but there is guarantee that it will work in any other theme. Introducing unnecessary markup into an article simply reduces its portability, by creating the possibility of display glitches in other themes, whether on Wikipedia on the many WP mirror sites. Snappy56 ( talk) 03:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one ever refers to this as the "28th Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, 2008", however technically correct it may be. I suggest it is moved to something on the lines of the 2008 ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by Ireland. AndrewRT( Talk) 22:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was consensus for move to format Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy (Ireland)
. With regard to the comma, I am leaving the commas in place until the issue has been discussed with more clarity and addresses not just this subset of articles. --
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk)
23:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Third Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, 1958 → ? — jnestorius( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Nth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, yyyy The current names of these are misleading: they are so long and formal-looking that one would easily assume that the name was the official name of the bill, when in fact the bill in each case did not include the words "of Ireland". They were originally at the name Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy, but were moved after discussion at #Confused above. The justification was either that it conformed to the naming convention used for successful amendments, or that it would be less confusing. I found both arguments dubious, but so be it. Let me throw out a number of suggestions which would meet each of the two posited justifications similarly to the current format, while in addition avoiding the problem I have pointed out with that format. I would support either of the following as an improvement on the current:
If the secondfirst alternative is implemented, one could take the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by removing the extraneous comma from the recentest bills, thus:
jnestorius( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Support - Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy (Ireland). The actual Bill title is then correct and the article title references Ireland. Jubilee♫ clipman 20:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
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Firstly, the referendum in Ireland, which I was present for before during and after, is a subject worthy of an independent Wikipedia artical in itself. Such a title could be "2008 Irish Rejection of the Lisbon Treaty". For example, in the Background section, links are provided to the independent articles "France in May 2005" and "Netherlands in June 2005".
All other issues with the page concern the unprofessional, and blatantly laughable, corruption of this article by a pro-EU writer. Its pretty outrageous stuff. This is evident in sections such as "Referendum", which instead talks about how the Political parties (not the people of Ireland) supported the treaty, as evidenced below.
Paragraph 1 of the "Referendum" section starts with:
"Events The government parties of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats were in favour of the treaty, but the other government party, the Green Party, was divided on the issue. At a special convention on 19 January 2008, the leadership of the Green Party failed to secure a two-thirds majority required to make support for the referendum official party policy. The result of the vote was 63% in favour. [...] all Green Party members of the Oireachtas supported the Treaty.[7][8] The main opposition parties of Fine Gael[9] and the Labour Party were also in favour. Only one party represented in the Oireachtas, Sinn Féin, was opposed to the treaty"
- Under the Referendum section, this is 100% Irrelevant, and is an example of blatant propaganda that seeks to lie to the readers of Wikipedia to frame the referendum in a pro-Treaty light.
Paragraph 2 of the same section starts:
"The then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern warned against making Ireland a 'battlefield' for eurosceptics across Europe."
Paragraph 5 of the section starts:
"At the start of May, the Irish Alliance for Europe launched its campaign for a Yes vote in the referendum this consisted of trade unionists, business people, academics and politicians. Its members include..."
Paragraph 6 starts:
"On 21 May 2008, the executive council of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions voted to support a Yes vote in the referendum" (and goes on to cite 5 more examples of pro-Lisbon voting.
In a referendum where the People of Ireland (you know, Democracy or whatever) voted No, and in many cases vehemently so, with protests and rallies in the center of Dublin and a vast majority of plackards resisting the Lisbon Treaty, with virtually no visibility of Yes voters to be seen anywhere in Dublin center, the number of mentions of "Yes" in this hideous excuse for an article are obviously misplaced.
Section: Opinion Polls
The sources of this data must be questioned due to the fact that it seems they have been selected to reflect the Yes vote, even though the actual referendum brought a No majority.
Section: Results
By now the ridiculousness of this article is evident and somewhat entertaining, and this continues when the same person or another pro-Treaty user has not been able to bring themselves to write in their own words a summary at the top of the section, saying that the people of Ireland democratically REJECTED the Lisbon Treaty. Instead they probably deleted such a summary by somebody else, of which there is none. No declaration in words in the results section that the referendum resulted in a No vote.
Section: Reasons for Rejection
"Ireland has begun to cast a sceptical[37] eye on the EU and general concerns about how Europe is developing were raised.[38] As of Spring 2007, the Irish citizenry have the second least European identity in the EU, with 59% identifying as exclusively Irish as opposed to wholly/partly European.[39] The integrationist aspects of the Lisbon treaty were therefore also of concern.[40] Few expressed specifically anti-EU statements, but pro-EU sentiments were interpreted[41] or expressed[42] in favour of an idealised/desired EU and expressed concern about its present form or the future direction of the EU post-Lisbon. To keep Ireland's power and identity,[43] voters chose to vote "no"."
- Is this a qualified, aggregated, ballanced and multi-contributor diagnosis? Is this paragraph, or its writer, qualified to speak on behalf of millions of people without review? Their only resource is a couple of newspaper articles. Surely professional researchers and quantitative data should be directly cited. They wont be of course, because there is no evidence to suggest that most No voters "express pro-EU sentiments" as this user claims.
My favorite part is probably this:
In September 2008 rumours in Brussels indicated that US billionaires and neocons heavily influenced the Irish vote by sponsoring the "No" campaigns".
I dont think any explanation is needed as to why this deceit has no place in academic discourse.
"It is said that US interest groups this way pursued their goal of hindering the European Union to become a stronger partner internationally." It is also said that the writer of this section has severe mental problems. The paragraph on how the US "sponsored" individual No votes in an Irish referendum, which I for one as a witness in Dublin saw no evidence for whatsoever, is the sort of thing that has lead to Wikipedia to be discredited, and academically unsourceable.
After the tables show the most common reasons that the majority of the people voted No, the same writer presumably, has added "French Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet blamed "American neoconservatives" for the Irish voter's rejection of the treaty." dispite the fact that even a potentially Pro-EU-biased survey has found that 0% of No voters said they voted because of the influence of foreign politicians. Which, ironically, is precisely what they are opposed to.
FINAL NOTES:
1. The photograph is biased, showing as it does two Yes posters above one No poster at the bottom. In most of central Dublin, the No posters (and later the No Means No posters) were omnipotent, while "Yes" posters were fairly scarce, and lampposts with 2 yes posters on top would have been a rare exception, hinting again at Wikipedia user bias.
2. The "see Also" list could be far more comprehensive, and as suggested above, should include a link to the Twenty-eighth Ammendment of the Constitution Bill 2008 (Ireland), which should be a seperate article from the one about the Irish Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
Le Pen? No reason for him to be mentioned in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.244.63.128 ( talk) 12:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This selection of quotes has little to do with the Irish referendum, and is misleading and extremely POV. If approperiate anywhere, it must be in the Treaty of Lisbon article. To say that the Constitution-Lisbon changes are only cosmetic, is simply wrong. Don't reinsert it. - 04:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing official until it is decided by the the minister for the environment. This date of June 12 2008 is subject to change. Please do not state this as gospel until confirmed by order of the minister. 89.204.197.161 ( talk) 07:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I have moved this article inline with other failed amendments to the Constitution of Ireland, e.g. Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 2002. Snappy56 ( talk) 16:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The map is squishing the results table. Might it be a suitable image to have at the top of the article when filled in, to show the extent to which this bill failed at the polling booths? - JVG ( talk) 16:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm a confused American trying to understand what exactly this treaty is and why anyone would vote against it. This article is really lacking a decent summary of what so many Irish found unappealing about it. There is a huge section on what political groups did or did not support it, but not their reasons for doing so.
The best information I could find on the matter was in one of the images. It was a sign that sound "no privatization of healthcare and education" or something along those lines. It's pretty bad when the images are more helpful than the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.140.142 ( talk) 21:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Edwin Larkin ( talk) 16:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
As well as explaining the arguments of both sides, as the previous section suggests, we also urgently need a reaction section. This should perhaps be on the main Treaty page rather than this page, but in either case a crosslinked summary on the other page is required. jnestorius( talk) 08:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The line: "To preserve Ireland's power and identity therefore voters chose to vote "No"" was a non-sequitur from what went before. Rather than rewrite all the preceding, I added to the line, to arrive at "Few expressed specifically anti-EU statements, but pro-EU sentiments were interpreted[41] or expressed[42] in favour of an idealised/desired EU and against its present form or its predicted form post-Lisbon. To some extent to preserve Ireland's power and identity, therefore, but also out of a concern about the future direction of Europe, for all Europeans, not simply as concerns the Irish, voters chose to vote "No"". (BB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.147.197 ( talk) 22:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
To suggest concern regarding the death penalty as a possible reason for the "no" vote is absolutley disingenuous, and suggests a (willful?) misreading of the cited article. A number of the "reasons" cited throughout this entry are also misrepresentations of the reasons for the vote (and, to say the least, often forced readings of the sources cited - the detention of three-year-olds as a reason for the "no" vote being another notable example, citing an article which is openly tongue-in-cheek (micro-chippng of future conscripts is also mentioned in the article, though not quoted in the wikipedia entry)), written from what would seem to be a markedly biased viewpoint, and aiming only to vilify, belittle, and indeed ridicule, the "no" position. (BB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.26.145 ( talk) 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Are those results correct? The percentages add up to 105! 83.70.235.251 ( talk) 22:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a standard Wikipedia CSS class for tables, called "wikitable". That sets colours and borders in a way which is consistent across articles, and in general it should be used with minimum adornment, to ensure consistency and readability.
I can see no specific case for applying markup to this article; there may be a general case for changing the CSS in particular implementations of the class "wikitable", but nothing that I can see which applies specifically to this article and not to others. In other words, if you want to change the way in which tables displayed on wikipedia, then the appropriate course of action is to go to the appropriate place to argue for them all being changed, rather than just adding style markup to this particular table in this articles.
Adding the colourings and borders can be disruptive to the reader. Like most users, I use the default monobook theme, and you markup works in that theme, but there is guarantee that it will work in any other theme. Introducing unnecessary markup into an article simply reduces its portability, by creating the possibility of display glitches in other themes, whether on Wikipedia on the many WP mirror sites. Snappy56 ( talk) 03:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one ever refers to this as the "28th Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, 2008", however technically correct it may be. I suggest it is moved to something on the lines of the 2008 ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by Ireland. AndrewRT( Talk) 22:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was consensus for move to format Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy (Ireland)
. With regard to the comma, I am leaving the commas in place until the issue has been discussed with more clarity and addresses not just this subset of articles. --
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk)
23:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Third Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, 1958 → ? — jnestorius( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Nth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland Bill, yyyy The current names of these are misleading: they are so long and formal-looking that one would easily assume that the name was the official name of the bill, when in fact the bill in each case did not include the words "of Ireland". They were originally at the name Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy, but were moved after discussion at #Confused above. The justification was either that it conformed to the naming convention used for successful amendments, or that it would be less confusing. I found both arguments dubious, but so be it. Let me throw out a number of suggestions which would meet each of the two posited justifications similarly to the current format, while in addition avoiding the problem I have pointed out with that format. I would support either of the following as an improvement on the current:
If the secondfirst alternative is implemented, one could take the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by removing the extraneous comma from the recentest bills, thus:
jnestorius( talk) 23:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Support - Nth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, yyyy (Ireland). The actual Bill title is then correct and the article title references Ireland. Jubilee♫ clipman 20:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
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Looks like it would be useful to many readers. Tom ( talk) 11:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC) |
Substituted at 01:16, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
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