This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Twelve Tribes communities article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The contents of the Yellow Deli page were merged into Twelve Tribes communities. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Twelve Tribes communities received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The 12 tribes is not an actual religion or a spirituality but it is a cult. Do a google search for 'twelve tribes cult' and you'll see how this group is actually a cult. The fact that this is a cult should be mentioned in the article. 71.185.240.247 ( talk) 05:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
It is a high control group, requiring absolute adherence to the groups belief system without compromise, and where questioning the group belief system is considered "a sin unto death", and will lead ultimately to expulsion from the group without support. This is the direct experience of nearly everyone who's lived in the community and since left or been "sent away". It's a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.199.144.175 ( talk) 06:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
By its own admission, the Twelve Tribes is a cult. They have publicly stated to the media that (a) definition of cult is a group following a central leader. They claim that all follow the messiah. Therefore classification as a cult should be a non-isssue, as both sides agree they are a cult, but just not on the definition of cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thespecialistofshell ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2018/darkness
85.194.9.156 (
talk) 22:54, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
160.20.230.23 ( talk) 15:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
References
@
Grorp: Per your recent edit here
[1]: I totally understand your logic, and I don't necessarily disagree in theory. If we were making correct of |main_classification=
, the only possibilities are really Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Restorationist. What's left in there now (Messianic Judaism and Chrisitan fundamentalism) is their theological orientation (|orientation=
). Academics identify them as a NRM, so their main classification is somewhat "non-standard". If anything, they should be (ideally) NRM for |main_classification=
or (alternatively) Restorationist, with Messianic Judaism and/or Christian fundamentalism as |orientation=
. Any thoughts or input?
ButlerBlog (
talk) 13:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
10. main_classification = (Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, etc.)
11. orientation = (main theology, e.g. Calvinism, Arminianism, Baptist)
Keep in mind that the infobox's name is "Christian denomination"Yes, it is, and this group is not a denomination. Therefore, you've got to give some leeway in how the infobox is used, since it is primarily set up for legitimate denominations, not NRMs (or cults). But whatever... I'm not married to it. I do, however, take strong exception to your suggestion of POV-pushing. ButlerBlog ( talk) 04:31, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
I have tagged the article with POV and Third-party, as a catch-all for all the others I really wanted to use.
Looking through the citations, there are 17 uses of twelvetribes.org (the subject's own website), and 43 uses of Susan Palmer writings (all glowing, supportive, and defensive of the subject group) — too much WP:ABOUTSELF and too much one-sided POV.
There is much content in the article on the order of "we're not a cult, they called us a cult, we're not a cult", but content that describes it as a cult and its associated reliable sources have been omitted or seriously downplayed. The article is instead full of WP:MANDY. The heavy emphasis on "defensiveness" language suggests there are numerous other reliable sources available, though I'm not seeing them in this article... yet. Grorp ( talk) 01:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, there are indications that many NRMs are involved in editing, censoring, and writing their own Wikipedia entries in an effort to correct or suppress negative information supplied by embittered ex-members or anti-cultists....When associates...see something embarassing on their Wikipedia page, they don't worry much about the truth content of the information, or about Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy, they just remove the irksome entry and often put text more favourable to them in its place. Time to add another to the list of whitewashers....When will the Twelve Tribes organisation learn the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia pages doesn't belong to them?
All links and most in-text references to sources critical of TT beliefs and practices were removed from the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia page back in May...The nice thing about Wikipedia is that the history of all edits are preserved...many of the original external links to the Twelve Tribes' Wikipedia article have been restored. Among these was the link to the "twelve-tribesteachings" site that archives a collection of hundreds of "teachings" of [founder] Spriggs as well as the TT's Intertribal News. Trouble is, these documents were not meant for outsiders' eyes and are a public relations liability for the Tribes...Many are on points of doctrine [that] will stand the hair on your head.
::::This has been an issue and it’s good it is becoming one again. Some years ago this page was marked by Wikipedia as having issues. A user @
Tim Kroelermade a lot of this article while being a member. It reads like a PR piece with some attempts at neutrality parsed on where a random editor attempted to fix something. Thanks for bringing this up here.
12.16.115.131 (
talk) 09:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
References
The Twelve Tribes of Israel is an existing cult that still functions with thriving communities...Sarah's former cult, The Twelve Tribes, is still very much intact and flourishing on four continents. It recently appeared in the news after authorities in Cambridge, New York, discovered child labor law infractions at one of its communities. This has also happened in Germany, where the court recently held up the removal of children from a large Twelve Tribes community in Bavaria.
In fact, many Twelve Tribes escapees eventually return to the cult because they can't tolerate the supposed evils of the outside world...Children in most cults are required to study, attend lengthy indoctrination sessions or church services, and work. For instance, the many businesses of the Twelve Tribes involved extensive child labor.
@ Butlerblog: You immediately swapped out [3] the archival tool I set up [4] before it even had a chance to run a cycle. But your archiving bot isn't picking up the two old threads (2014 & 2016), whereas I know the archive bot I set up would have done so. I'm changing it back. Please let it run through its cycle at least once. Grorp ( talk) 01:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Butlerblog: (Several times now?) you have reverted my "unverified" tag (with no explanation from you), so I looked even closer. This is what I found.
Although the source given (when translated from German to English) says "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer showed that after the police raids in September 2013, the doctors found no evidence of ill-treatment," the source is from APA-OTS which is a distributor of press releases (like PR Newswire). See their impressum. So I went to the source (given by link at the bottom of original citation) which is a redirect ( http://www.ots.at/redirect/foref2) to [5]. Not currently available, but is available through wayback machine. [6] That leads to the old website for FOREF Europe (foref.info). I see they have a new website https://foref-europe.org/ which fortunately is in English.
FOREF Europe is an advocacy group for freedom of religion. [7] Per WP:PRSOURCE, I really don't think this press release is a reliable source for repeating verbatim the English-translation version "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer pointed out that the doctors found no evidence of mistreatment in September 2013 following the police raids."
Also, since "the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German move to take away the children from the sect", then Palmer's statement hints of WP:MANDY and probably shouldn't be mentioned in the article at all. ( This English FOREF document shows their activism and ideas on this incident in all its POV glory. Also not a reliable source to use in Wikipedia, but interesting all the same.) Though there may not have been "marks" on the children at the time of the raid, there were routine canings on the children prior, which is why they were picked up in the first place.
Analogy: If I smack you today and it makes a pink handprint on your cheek, but it's not there tomorrow, does that mean I cannot be arrested tomorrow for assault because you no longer have any remaining mark on your face?
Mentioning this "single point in time" statement from Palmer is WP:UNDUE and I don't think the wiki article would be lacking if the sentence were removed altogether. Grorp ( talk) 00:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Twelve Tribes communities article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The contents of the Yellow Deli page were merged into Twelve Tribes communities. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Twelve Tribes communities received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The 12 tribes is not an actual religion or a spirituality but it is a cult. Do a google search for 'twelve tribes cult' and you'll see how this group is actually a cult. The fact that this is a cult should be mentioned in the article. 71.185.240.247 ( talk) 05:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
It is a high control group, requiring absolute adherence to the groups belief system without compromise, and where questioning the group belief system is considered "a sin unto death", and will lead ultimately to expulsion from the group without support. This is the direct experience of nearly everyone who's lived in the community and since left or been "sent away". It's a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.199.144.175 ( talk) 06:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
By its own admission, the Twelve Tribes is a cult. They have publicly stated to the media that (a) definition of cult is a group following a central leader. They claim that all follow the messiah. Therefore classification as a cult should be a non-isssue, as both sides agree they are a cult, but just not on the definition of cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thespecialistofshell ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2018/darkness
85.194.9.156 (
talk) 22:54, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
160.20.230.23 ( talk) 15:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
References
@
Grorp: Per your recent edit here
[1]: I totally understand your logic, and I don't necessarily disagree in theory. If we were making correct of |main_classification=
, the only possibilities are really Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Restorationist. What's left in there now (Messianic Judaism and Chrisitan fundamentalism) is their theological orientation (|orientation=
). Academics identify them as a NRM, so their main classification is somewhat "non-standard". If anything, they should be (ideally) NRM for |main_classification=
or (alternatively) Restorationist, with Messianic Judaism and/or Christian fundamentalism as |orientation=
. Any thoughts or input?
ButlerBlog (
talk) 13:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
10. main_classification = (Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, etc.)
11. orientation = (main theology, e.g. Calvinism, Arminianism, Baptist)
Keep in mind that the infobox's name is "Christian denomination"Yes, it is, and this group is not a denomination. Therefore, you've got to give some leeway in how the infobox is used, since it is primarily set up for legitimate denominations, not NRMs (or cults). But whatever... I'm not married to it. I do, however, take strong exception to your suggestion of POV-pushing. ButlerBlog ( talk) 04:31, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
I have tagged the article with POV and Third-party, as a catch-all for all the others I really wanted to use.
Looking through the citations, there are 17 uses of twelvetribes.org (the subject's own website), and 43 uses of Susan Palmer writings (all glowing, supportive, and defensive of the subject group) — too much WP:ABOUTSELF and too much one-sided POV.
There is much content in the article on the order of "we're not a cult, they called us a cult, we're not a cult", but content that describes it as a cult and its associated reliable sources have been omitted or seriously downplayed. The article is instead full of WP:MANDY. The heavy emphasis on "defensiveness" language suggests there are numerous other reliable sources available, though I'm not seeing them in this article... yet. Grorp ( talk) 01:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, there are indications that many NRMs are involved in editing, censoring, and writing their own Wikipedia entries in an effort to correct or suppress negative information supplied by embittered ex-members or anti-cultists....When associates...see something embarassing on their Wikipedia page, they don't worry much about the truth content of the information, or about Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy, they just remove the irksome entry and often put text more favourable to them in its place. Time to add another to the list of whitewashers....When will the Twelve Tribes organisation learn the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia pages doesn't belong to them?
All links and most in-text references to sources critical of TT beliefs and practices were removed from the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia page back in May...The nice thing about Wikipedia is that the history of all edits are preserved...many of the original external links to the Twelve Tribes' Wikipedia article have been restored. Among these was the link to the "twelve-tribesteachings" site that archives a collection of hundreds of "teachings" of [founder] Spriggs as well as the TT's Intertribal News. Trouble is, these documents were not meant for outsiders' eyes and are a public relations liability for the Tribes...Many are on points of doctrine [that] will stand the hair on your head.
::::This has been an issue and it’s good it is becoming one again. Some years ago this page was marked by Wikipedia as having issues. A user @
Tim Kroelermade a lot of this article while being a member. It reads like a PR piece with some attempts at neutrality parsed on where a random editor attempted to fix something. Thanks for bringing this up here.
12.16.115.131 (
talk) 09:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
References
The Twelve Tribes of Israel is an existing cult that still functions with thriving communities...Sarah's former cult, The Twelve Tribes, is still very much intact and flourishing on four continents. It recently appeared in the news after authorities in Cambridge, New York, discovered child labor law infractions at one of its communities. This has also happened in Germany, where the court recently held up the removal of children from a large Twelve Tribes community in Bavaria.
In fact, many Twelve Tribes escapees eventually return to the cult because they can't tolerate the supposed evils of the outside world...Children in most cults are required to study, attend lengthy indoctrination sessions or church services, and work. For instance, the many businesses of the Twelve Tribes involved extensive child labor.
@ Butlerblog: You immediately swapped out [3] the archival tool I set up [4] before it even had a chance to run a cycle. But your archiving bot isn't picking up the two old threads (2014 & 2016), whereas I know the archive bot I set up would have done so. I'm changing it back. Please let it run through its cycle at least once. Grorp ( talk) 01:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Butlerblog: (Several times now?) you have reverted my "unverified" tag (with no explanation from you), so I looked even closer. This is what I found.
Although the source given (when translated from German to English) says "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer showed that after the police raids in September 2013, the doctors found no evidence of ill-treatment," the source is from APA-OTS which is a distributor of press releases (like PR Newswire). See their impressum. So I went to the source (given by link at the bottom of original citation) which is a redirect ( http://www.ots.at/redirect/foref2) to [5]. Not currently available, but is available through wayback machine. [6] That leads to the old website for FOREF Europe (foref.info). I see they have a new website https://foref-europe.org/ which fortunately is in English.
FOREF Europe is an advocacy group for freedom of religion. [7] Per WP:PRSOURCE, I really don't think this press release is a reliable source for repeating verbatim the English-translation version "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer pointed out that the doctors found no evidence of mistreatment in September 2013 following the police raids."
Also, since "the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German move to take away the children from the sect", then Palmer's statement hints of WP:MANDY and probably shouldn't be mentioned in the article at all. ( This English FOREF document shows their activism and ideas on this incident in all its POV glory. Also not a reliable source to use in Wikipedia, but interesting all the same.) Though there may not have been "marks" on the children at the time of the raid, there were routine canings on the children prior, which is why they were picked up in the first place.
Analogy: If I smack you today and it makes a pink handprint on your cheek, but it's not there tomorrow, does that mean I cannot be arrested tomorrow for assault because you no longer have any remaining mark on your face?
Mentioning this "single point in time" statement from Palmer is WP:UNDUE and I don't think the wiki article would be lacking if the sentence were removed altogether. Grorp ( talk) 00:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)