I will commence work on this soon. My main ideas are to expand the introduction, and add the Alevi titles of these individuals as well such as Birinci Ali, Ikinci Ali, and so forth(I'll parallel this addition to the change on the Alevism template). I think we may need to condense a few categories into one, as well. -- Enzuru 20:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, you've done excellent effort. I just mention two points.
I replaced the article's lead with the above proposal .-- Seyyed( t- c) 05:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel this is a bit misleading "Note 1: According to Shia view Ali became Imam after death of Prophet of Islam and the other ones became Imam after the martyrdom of former Imam." We have several hadith indicating that one is an Imam at the time of birth, within both the Twelver and Ismaili branches. Another hadith, I believe it is found in Twelver books as well, but only recall it from an Ismaili, was Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (AS) stating that, (not exact quote) "Our bodies change, grow from young to old, but our soul stays the same." I don't believe those hadith are too mystic to rely on, especially in the realm of doctrine. -- Enzuru 16:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should work on the lead more. I have some problems with new version. [1]-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I suggest this:Imam designates an infallible including Ali ibn Abi Talib and appointed male descendant of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah.-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
What's your idea about the following text :
Since the Prophet and, for Shi'is, the Imams were sinless and infallible, their words and deeds are a guide and model for all to follow. These were eventually written down after being transmitted orally for several generations... They are also frequently called khabar (information, plural akhbar) by Shi'is... The Shi'i traditions usually rely on the words or actions of one of the Imams and even those that go back to the Prophet are usually transmitted through one of the Imams.
The Twelve Imams are the spiritual and political successors to Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, in the Twelver or Ithna Ashariya branch of Shia Islam. According to theology of Twelvers the successor of Muhammad must be one who not only rules over the community in justice but also is able to keep and interpret the Divine Law and its esoteric meaning. The Prophet and Imam's words and deeds are a guide and model for all to follow. Hence they must be free from error and sin, Infallible, and they must be chosen from on high by divine decree (nass) through the Prophet. It is believed that Aql, a divine wisdom, was the source of the souls of the Prophets and Imams and gave them esoteric knowledge, called Hikmah, and their sufferings were a means of divine grace to their devotees..
There is always an Imam of the Age who is the divinely appointed authority on all matters of faith and law in the Muslim community. Ali was the first Imam and rightful successor of the Prophet of Islam, followed by male descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah Zahra. Each Imam was the son of the previous Imam, except for Husayn ibn Ali who was the brother of Hasan ibn Ali.
-- Seyyed( t- c) 04:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The Twelve Imams are the spiritual and political successors to Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, in the Twelver or Ithna Ashariya branch of Shia Islam. According to theology of Twelvers the successor of Muhammad is an infallible individual who not only rules over the community in justice but also is able to keep and interpret the Divine Law and its esoteric meaning. The Prophet and Imam's words and deeds are a guide and model for the community to follow, hence they must be free from error and sin, and they must be chosen by divine decree, or nass, through the Prophet. It is believed in Shi'asm that Aql, a divine wisdom, was the source of the souls of the Prophets and Imams and gave them esoteric knowledge, called Hikmah, and that their sufferings were a means of divine grace to their devotees.
How is this? -- Enzuru 06:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)There is always an Imam of the Age who is the divinely appointed authority on all matters of faith and law in the Muslim community. Ali was the first Imam and rightful successor to the Prophet of Islam, followed by male descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah Zahra. Each Imam was the son of the previous Imam, except for Husayn ibn Ali who was the brother of Hasan ibn Ali.
Before we talk about this issue again, please see Template_talk:Shia_Islam. Now it comes down to whether calligraphy or not is the best route. I argue that most non-Muslims, calligraphy means nothing. At least the pictures of Imam Ali (AS) and Imam Husayn (AS) are similiar across portrayals. And we must use the phrase depiction, not picture, because just like most Christians know the depicitons of Christ are not accurate, so do most Shi'a know that these are not accurate. Remember, Wikipedia does not condone censorship. -- Enzuru 23:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we can keep templates to using a few colors and not 32bit images. For templates it doesn't matter so much if images are popular... On this article I don't fully mind images--although, they do have their problems. Calligraphy would not be fitting in the place where we now have the images. I'm not fully sure what the answer is for this article. gren グレン 19:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I will commence work on this soon. My main ideas are to expand the introduction, and add the Alevi titles of these individuals as well such as Birinci Ali, Ikinci Ali, and so forth(I'll parallel this addition to the change on the Alevism template). I think we may need to condense a few categories into one, as well. -- Enzuru 20:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, you've done excellent effort. I just mention two points.
I replaced the article's lead with the above proposal .-- Seyyed( t- c) 05:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel this is a bit misleading "Note 1: According to Shia view Ali became Imam after death of Prophet of Islam and the other ones became Imam after the martyrdom of former Imam." We have several hadith indicating that one is an Imam at the time of birth, within both the Twelver and Ismaili branches. Another hadith, I believe it is found in Twelver books as well, but only recall it from an Ismaili, was Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (AS) stating that, (not exact quote) "Our bodies change, grow from young to old, but our soul stays the same." I don't believe those hadith are too mystic to rely on, especially in the realm of doctrine. -- Enzuru 16:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should work on the lead more. I have some problems with new version. [1]-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I suggest this:Imam designates an infallible including Ali ibn Abi Talib and appointed male descendant of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah.-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
What's your idea about the following text :
Since the Prophet and, for Shi'is, the Imams were sinless and infallible, their words and deeds are a guide and model for all to follow. These were eventually written down after being transmitted orally for several generations... They are also frequently called khabar (information, plural akhbar) by Shi'is... The Shi'i traditions usually rely on the words or actions of one of the Imams and even those that go back to the Prophet are usually transmitted through one of the Imams.
The Twelve Imams are the spiritual and political successors to Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, in the Twelver or Ithna Ashariya branch of Shia Islam. According to theology of Twelvers the successor of Muhammad must be one who not only rules over the community in justice but also is able to keep and interpret the Divine Law and its esoteric meaning. The Prophet and Imam's words and deeds are a guide and model for all to follow. Hence they must be free from error and sin, Infallible, and they must be chosen from on high by divine decree (nass) through the Prophet. It is believed that Aql, a divine wisdom, was the source of the souls of the Prophets and Imams and gave them esoteric knowledge, called Hikmah, and their sufferings were a means of divine grace to their devotees..
There is always an Imam of the Age who is the divinely appointed authority on all matters of faith and law in the Muslim community. Ali was the first Imam and rightful successor of the Prophet of Islam, followed by male descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah Zahra. Each Imam was the son of the previous Imam, except for Husayn ibn Ali who was the brother of Hasan ibn Ali.
-- Seyyed( t- c) 04:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The Twelve Imams are the spiritual and political successors to Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, in the Twelver or Ithna Ashariya branch of Shia Islam. According to theology of Twelvers the successor of Muhammad is an infallible individual who not only rules over the community in justice but also is able to keep and interpret the Divine Law and its esoteric meaning. The Prophet and Imam's words and deeds are a guide and model for the community to follow, hence they must be free from error and sin, and they must be chosen by divine decree, or nass, through the Prophet. It is believed in Shi'asm that Aql, a divine wisdom, was the source of the souls of the Prophets and Imams and gave them esoteric knowledge, called Hikmah, and that their sufferings were a means of divine grace to their devotees.
How is this? -- Enzuru 06:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)There is always an Imam of the Age who is the divinely appointed authority on all matters of faith and law in the Muslim community. Ali was the first Imam and rightful successor to the Prophet of Islam, followed by male descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatimah Zahra. Each Imam was the son of the previous Imam, except for Husayn ibn Ali who was the brother of Hasan ibn Ali.
Before we talk about this issue again, please see Template_talk:Shia_Islam. Now it comes down to whether calligraphy or not is the best route. I argue that most non-Muslims, calligraphy means nothing. At least the pictures of Imam Ali (AS) and Imam Husayn (AS) are similiar across portrayals. And we must use the phrase depiction, not picture, because just like most Christians know the depicitons of Christ are not accurate, so do most Shi'a know that these are not accurate. Remember, Wikipedia does not condone censorship. -- Enzuru 23:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we can keep templates to using a few colors and not 32bit images. For templates it doesn't matter so much if images are popular... On this article I don't fully mind images--although, they do have their problems. Calligraphy would not be fitting in the place where we now have the images. I'm not fully sure what the answer is for this article. gren グレン 19:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)