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I have changed the class from start to B.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The link: Statistisches Bundesamt (2008), Statistical Yearbook 2008 For the Federal Republic of Germany has automatically changed to the 2009 yearbook! So I will change the population figures of Turkish citizens from 1,713,600 (2008) to 1,688,370 (2009) which means that 25,230 have become German citizens this year. Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 13:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
What about the Turkish population in Germany after 1980? The statisticals shows only before 1980 here. --
212.154.117.108 (
talk) 07:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Using "ethnicity" sounds discriminative, as some -if not most- of these people belong to a distinct etnicity (Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc). Also Turkish is a national noun, its ethnical counterpart should be Turkic which would include Azeris and others as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.209.22 ( talk) 14:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
These to sections are lacking compared to the rest of the article. Lets improve it! Turco85 ( Talk) 17:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This article quotes a magazine called The Spiegel, stating that "only 14% have the Abitur (that's less than 50% compared to the German population, and also much lesser than other immigrated groups)", but I think The Spiegel got something wrong, because according to what I heard about that study on TV not 14% of turkish of any age-group, but 14% of turkish youngsters graduating from German schools this year received the Abitur. It is also not true that this is less than 50% compared to the German population. In 2008 only 18% of Germans of all age-groups held a Abitur ( http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2541399/Migranten-haben-oefter-Abitur-als-Deutsche.html). However it is true that ethnic German youngsters graduating from German schools that year were twice as likely as turkish youngsters to receive an Abitur. (Sorry for my english, it's not my native language).— 212.201.83.30 ( talk) 17:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Staatsangehörigen Italiens und Serbien-Montenegros: in beiden Gruppen finden wir mehr Sonderschüler als Gymnasiasten. Das Gros der Schüler in diesen beiden Gruppen ist darüber hinaus in der Hauptschule zu finden, nur kleinere Prozentsätze besuchen Gymnasien und Realschulen. Während diese Tatsache bei den Staatsangehörigen Serbien-Montenegros mit der langen Tradition der Unterdrückung der Kultur der kosovo-albanischen Minderheit erklärt werden kann, die für eine ganze Generation auch ein nichtfunktionierendes Schulsystem zur Folge hatte, ist die Tatsache für die italienischen Kinder in Deutschland zunächst überraschend. Sie wird deswegen ausführlicher behandelt. Die türkische Gruppe als größte Zuwanderergruppe bietet zwar ein besseres Bild in bezug auf die Relation Gymnasiasten- Sonderschüler, auch hier ist aber klar ein gravierender Überhang der Hauptschul-Population zu erkennen. Wie der Aufsatz zu den Aleviten in unserem Band exemplarisch zeigt, gibt es aber auch innerhalb der aus der Türkei stammenden Bevölkerung durchaus erfolgreiche Gruppen. Zu berücksichtigen ist darüber hinaus, dass inzwischen etwa 700.000 Menschen türkischen Ursprungs eingebürgert sind. Da dies tendenziell gut integrierte Zuwanderer sind, wird der Bildungserfolg der türkischen Zuwanderer unterschätzt, wenn man auf die Definition Staatsangehörigkeit abstellt, wie dies die amtliche Statistik tut.-- Greatgreenwhale ( talk) 21:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this sentence is wrong, because while they were not automatically entitled of German citizenship, they still might apply for it. It was not like they were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale ( talk) 20:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Atheism is not a religion and therefore seems illogical to have in this section. Furthermore, the majority of Turks in Germany are actually more religious than in say Turkey or Cyprus were Secularism dominates. Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 10:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The following section is being disputed. It seems as though one user by the name of Massadanarti does not see this sentence as a form of discrimination:
I for one believe that the reference is a demonstration of racism towards the Turkish community and have therefore replaced the deleted sentence. Turco85 ( Talk) 14:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
If "Turks in Germany" means "turkish ethnicity in Gemany", German and Turkish may be correct. If it means "People in Germany originating in Turkey", Kurdish must be included, as well as Armenian (to a lesser extend).
There are many Kurds from Turkey in Germany (who also speak Turkish), and some ethnic Armenians also immigrated. -- 141.70.81.136 ( talk) 12:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Since many members of Christian minorities (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) also emigrated to Germany, due to repressions by the Turkish state in the past, they form a larger percentage in the German-Turkish population than they do in Turkey. I don't have figures here, but I think they should be included in the Religion part of the infobox. -- megA ( talk) 13:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Isn't this figure moot? For example a person born and raised in Germany, from one (ethnic) German parent and one (ethnic) Turkish parent is, by definition of the Statistisches Bundesamt, a German with migratory background. And thus part of the 3.5 or 4 million. So, is he Turkish or German? By law, he is German, not a "Turk with German citizenship". There is no such thing.
"3.5 million people of Turkish origin living in Germany" – correctly phrased
"...estimate that there are now more than 4 million Turks in Germany" Nope, there are 1.7 million Turks in Germany. 2.3 million are Germans with (half or full) Turkish ethnicity. --
megA (
talk) 14:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The numbers in the table provided in this section do not make much sense, especially the "percentage of Turks living in Germany", probably due to incremental editing without updating everything. First the numbers do not up to 100%, even accounting for rounding it's too far away, second, many of the numbers do not make sense - 60.000 Turks each in Bremen and Schleswig Holstein get different shares of the whole community, double pop figures do not mean double percentage features and so on. -- Ulkomaalainen ( talk) 00:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
This article says that 4-5% of the population has Turkish background, but according to Demographics of Germany 3,7% of the population has Turkish background. There should be a fact check on which number is correct in order not to let Wikipedia look contradictional.-- Charlene1989 ( talk) 07:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC) that also bother me too,Did you find the answer yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This section is renamed to 'Integration Problems'. It can not be named as 'segregation'. None of the references, one of them is a dead link talks about segregation at all. Whoever initially started this, clearly extrapolating. Segregation is illegal in Germany and is not practice anywhere in Germany, including Ethnically rich cities. If there were any segregationist movement or views buy turks, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar. -- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 21:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
This section is written in a biased attitude based an extrapolated conclusion on a survey which reliability is in question. Neutrality of that section is very much disputed.
--
83.97.72.14 (
talk) 18:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
-- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 21:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
-- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 01:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
@Rjensen, There are some original research works in ethnic segregation in Germany [3] [4] [ [5]], Maybe you can write a separate article about this with your academic background in general. I think it is a generic issue with immigrants in the country and it must not be restricted to turks, this article. But I am not sure if these sources are acceptable in wikipedia standard, it still looks like OR, no original research policy. -- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 02:39, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
As I understand German officials do not distinguish between Turk and Kurd, but does anyone know what % of the est. 3.5 million Turks in Germany are of Kurdish origin? I would like to include this in the article if anybody knows. It's an important cultural distinction. Oxr033 ( talk) 23:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
What about Turks from bulgaria and greece. There has been a migration especially from bulgaria to germany. So the number of Turks in germany is higher than expected. One of the most famous Turk from greece is Cemile Giousouf (Cemile Yusuf), a parlamentarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.156.50 ( talk) 10:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
ok,just for example,If there was a man who was of Turkish origin,And his parents were German citizens when he was born, but his grandparents were immigrants and arrived now Germany after 1955(Typical guest workers like many others), here is the question,would this gay or others like him be count as a man with Migrant background? or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
I found a source about a survey that discussed attitudes held by the Turks in Germany. Would this be relevant?
WhisperToMe ( talk) 08:17, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Useful link: http://www.dw.com/tr/almanyadaki-%C3%BCnl%C3%BC-t%C3%BCrkler/g-17016295 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.107.66 ( talk) 09:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
This article obviously has various issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism. To name some examples:
These issues should and must be addressed, for the article to do justice to its topic. I am seriously considering if a POV template is needed for the article. -- 2A1ZA ( talk) 23:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I removed the following timeline from the page; it was not sourced and seems unnecessary.
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The doesn't seem to be a single questionable fact and the list offers a very nice overview. Authors have invested significant work here and if a single point is questioned it should be supported with a source instead of deleted. Deleting it all is utter nonsense.
This looks like vandalism a lot! 06:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I love the atheo-Turks. They are my brothers.
Comments are not allowed in Wikipedia, but we have to push in life to take our place, because the others don't respect us if we don't push for our rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8455:D100:3060:E6E8:A680:A948 ( talk) 16:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I can't figure out how to add books to that further reading template: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/turkish-germans-in-the-federal-republic-of-germany/BEDD8126B86F81E3C59D178045A3D88D Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 15:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Not to be pedantic, but the term "German Turks" or "German-Turkish" refers to Turkish people of German descent. The correct term for this article is "Turkish-German" (with or without hyphen). I'm changing the instances of this term in this article correspondingly. Similarly, "Turks in Germany" is also incorrect, unless it actually refers to Turkish citizens in Germany. I'm sure no one meant any harm using these phrases in this article, but I would argue for erring on the side of precision, not least given the historical difficulties Turkish-Germans have faced (and continue to face) in being recognized as "fully" German. -- Tserton ( talk) 08:44, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm revising the estimates on the number of people of Turkish ancestry in Germany. Currently the estimate of seven million is listed under "academic estimates" yet multiple sources cited don't mention it or come from politicians during political speeches, only one source comes from a professor. It contradicts heavily with official estimates, making it inappropriate for the infobox. The numbers used on this Article as of August 14th are more accurate to the research consensus. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 14:54, 30 November 2020 (UTC)#
Further, your claim that only 500,000 Turks have German citizenship is incorrect. In 2020 there were already reports that 1 million Turks were in danger of losing their German citizenship because they are suspected of holding dual nationality (and this is only including those who are suspected of it) [21]. Sseevv ( talk) 22:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Regardless how many have been naturalized in recent years doesn't particularly matter to the main point of whether the 7 million figure is plausible enough for the infobox. The conjecture you give about the possibility that the 7 million figure could be reconciled against the much lower estimates seems to rest on the idea mass naturalization occurring recently (since you consider 2006 to be too old for accurate information even though I've given far more current ones and sources that support the idea there hasn't been much population growth in general) means large numbers of naturalized Turks wouldn't be counted as being of Turkish background. This is pointless, since "migration background" is dependent on the citizenships your grandparents were born with, not what citizenship you have either at birth or later in life, hence "migration background" rather than simply "migrant". Its at least been established that naturalizations of Turks is a recent phenomena (and they are still rather low for how many are eligible and compared to the rate of naturalization for other groups) due to revisions of citizenship laws in 1999, 2000, and 2005, so this would not significantly effect it, regardless of how many acquired it since, again you acquiring citizenship wouldn't change the citizenship your parents or grandparents are born with. This is your fundamental misunderstanding, Turks born in Germany in the early 1990s for example were usually born as Turkish citizens. So while its true German census data does not track ethnicity as such, given that German citizenship until recently was passed through a parent rather than whether or not you were born in Germany, it gives an accurate picture. You could always argue that hundreds of thousands of Turks intermarried with Germans and their children acquired citizenship in earlier decades, but German-Turkish intermarriage very uncommon, and if you want me to provide a multitude more sources proving that fact I will. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 03:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Just to put it out there for anyone else following this thread, the German Embassy in the US said the following in 2011 (i.e. almost 10 years ago) see here for archived link:
Therefore, the above user's push to change the infobox figures to less than 2.5 million Turks in Germany with only 500,000 holding German citizenship is beyond ridiculous and a waste of my time. Sseevv ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I have to admit to being a little confused as to the substance of this dispute - there seem to be several things going on. If I understand correctly: no one seems to dispute the accuracy or up-to-date-ness of the numbers published by Germany's official statistics numbers; the issue seems to be who counts as Turkish - i.e. whether Kurds and ethnic Turks from outside the modern Turkish state should be included. Is that correct? Or is the disagreement simply over which sources to regard as authoritative?
A few thoughts:
If I've correctly identified the meat of the dispute, I would propose this: give the number cited by Germany's statistics office (~3 million), noting that it only encompasses first and second generation Turks and Turkish-Germans, and also say that estimates of the total number people of Turkish descent living in Germany is around ___. (We should look at the reliability of the sources for that number, and whether the sources implies that their estimate comes from actual data-based projections, or just gut-feeling.) -- Tserton ( talk) 01:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Nonetheless, I would be fine with placing the 2011 census here if we expressly state what it represents. As you say, some users seem to assume that just because it is a state census, citizens are declaring their ethnicity - which isn't the case with most European censuses. Censuses in Western European countries generally do not report in the same way as the US, Canada, the former USSR or the Balkans which allow citizens to declare ethnicity.
In general, many of the ethnic group articles on Germany are using the German census incorrectly. E.g. Arabs in Germany is using all statistics on majority Arabic-speaking countries and representing all citizens as "Arabs" without showing the diversity of these migration waves which include Kurds, Berbers, Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and many more. The majority of X in Germany articles are doing this, which is a total misrepresentation of figures. Sseevv ( talk) 14:54, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
To Tserton's post above (and to anyone else who doesn't want to sift through the previous walls of text to figure out whats going on): the primary dispute was not about the 2011 German census, this came up later. It was about the sources cited for the 7 million number. It was given as "academic sources" in the infobox when in reality the sources being used for that number came entirely from questionable sources like political speeches (some of which were being cited by academics and thus called that, but nonetheless were quoting those speechs only as a primary source) and so were many of the 4 million numbers as they came from embassy estimates. My proposal was just like yours: get the 7 million number out of the infobox. Personally I think it shouldn't even be in the article, but I thought keeping it in the demographic section would be a good compromise. I also didn't think that many sources (all qouting the same speech) was needed, but Sseevv accused me of vandalism. Regarding the German census, please read my post near the top starting with "I'm noticing yet another issue..." The census was misquoted as saying "at least one parent born in Turkey" when it includes several generations up based on what citizenship they were born with. Sseevv then tried to claim that the real number of Turks in Germany must be much higher (thus giving the seven million figure more creditability) because it is not strictly ethnic background. However there are several false assumptions in his belief: for one thing as I mentioned before naturalization of Turks in Germany is a recent phenomenon, and even since then (1999-2005 when these laws changed) being born in Germany does not automatically gain you citizenship. So no, it is not accurate to say "migration background" only includes first and second generation, since there are a large number Turks in Germany today whose grandparents immigrated in the 1950s, but it wasn't until two generations down that they received German citizenship (the vast majority still haven't). Thus even Turks born recently in Germany in most cases would still be classified as "migration background" since their parents or grandparents werent born with German citizenship. Regardless this is all original research from him not sourced that I was responding to. If you want to note that the German census isn't strictly about ethnicity thats fine, but any implication attached that implies most research puts it much higher is false and requires a source explicitly saying that. This implication is made as it is by having that statement followed by "other estimates" of which the extremely high figures are exclusively used, despite the sources being unreliable.
I cited many sources for these statements earlier - particulary in regards to the low number of Turks with German citizenship, to which all Sseevv could counter with was a statement from an embassy and a single news article. The second false assumption in this is that everyone coming to Germany from Turkey is an ethnic Kurd. Most statistics say around 1 million of those of Turkish migrant background are ethnically Kurdish, so if anything the German census not strictly relating to ethnicity implies the number of Turks being lower than the census. Sseevv then made a series of vague arguments trying to explain how that ridiculously high number, at odds with all serious academics and from a unreliable source, could be viable. First claiming that the number of ethnic Turks from other countries (like Greece which has a minority of them) could make up the difference, but not giving any source to how many that would be, I doubt its very much personally. Secondly if Kohl said there were three million Turks in Germany in the 1990s (he refuses to believe its unreliable as a source) therefor the Turkish population must have grown. I rebutted with a source stating that the ethnic Turkish birthrate was quite low, and further Turkish migration to Germany is no longer a major phenomenon and that there is also such thing as return emigration.
Next he simply moved to saying that my sources must be wrong because they contradict the embassy estimates and political speeches he cited. Note that everything else besides this question is moot: the fundamental problem is he is using unreliable sources against the myriad of third party academic sources I have given. I chose to engage with his other explanations (which only seems to have confused things) for how that number could be reached so we could have a discussion and I could show that there was other supporting evidence for the argument I make. But again, he simply has not given reliable sources where as I gave sources that adhere to Wikipedia guidelines. As for the Russian Germans article that Sseevv brings up: firstly that number seems to have been added to that article recently, so perhaps other authors havent noticed it rather than it being accepted. And secondly there might not be other sources to chose from. An even bigger point I'm making is it isn't just that the sources in use here are questionable, there are sound sources I have given from actual academic works dedicated to the subject, so there is no excuse for them to stay. "Surely the source should be ringing alarm bells to you when you see that it claims '246,000' have obtained German citizenship. This is simply not true." these are the kind of statements he makes regarding third party academic sources, the only evidence he gave to the contrary was a news article. Yet he has been free to edit this article several dozens times since this started. I would recommend everyone to look through the revision history of the article, though that has been hugely complicated by all the editing he has done whilst reverting everyone else. One thing you'll find is I am not challenging a longstanding agreement on the infobox, he himself added the 7 million figure without comment. [27] Am I the only one seeing a problem with the way he has responded to me not even including the accusations of vandalism and sock puppets? Thanks. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 05:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Will Tyson for real:, thanks for finally showing your motivation: to remove higher-end estimates. Firstly, they are not all quoting the same speech. Please accept that there are a range of estimates on Turks in Germany: an FBIS report (a intelligence component of CIA - which is also widely cited on Wikipedia) said there were three million Turks in 1994 ( page 69); Professor Clifford Geertz has estimated that there was two million Turks in Berlin in the 2000s; Professor Daniel Goldhagen said in 2013 that six million Turks were in Germany (almost half of which were German citizens) [28]. In short, there is a range of estimates between four and seven million, the estimate of 3 million dates back decades. I have dozens of sources ready to illustrate this.
@ Spatzenversteher:'s recent edit and explanation in the article illustrates my point. This opinion that the census includes five generations of Turkish Germans is simply not true. And where does the 800,000 figure for Kurdish-Turkish people appear in the German census? Of course, the census includes Kurds from Turkey, but as I've said many times before the census does not collect data on ethnicity. One cannot use official sources and manipulate them to "prove" a point. The census does not show the number of Balkan Turks, Levantine Turks etc. either, it does not fall to us to use the census in a manipulative way - as several editors have done in their 2020 edits. Sseevv ( talk) 15:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
For the infobox: the more succinct, the better. Infoboxes are meant to provide information at a glance, so if it's long most people are going to skip it and just read the article text instead and this whole debate is for naught. So I would favor phrasing it like so: at least 4 million [2-3 sources], some estimates range up to 7 million [2-3 sources]. Since it's much less complete, I would not include the results of the census in the infobox and instead mention it only in the text. If there's a strong preference for thoroughness, we can put that number in as well - just be wary of clutter. And absolutely remove the statements by Kohl, and preferably the one from the embassy as well. Embassy statements might do in a pinch, but we're not in a pinch - the number frome the embassy is also cited by a great number of other sources. If someone is strongly in favor of mentioning those sources I would suggest putting it to an RfC.
In the main text of the article: here we can should fully explain that the census offers an incomplete snapshot and why, and why it's difficult to make a firm projection.
What do you think? --
Tserton (
talk) 02:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Then there is the actual study about Turkish diaspora and German citizenship from 2019 that gives similar numbers for the number of Turkish descent and of those how many hold citizenship. [29] [30] And I gave previous sources about the Turkish naturalization. Every source I have given has corroborated this fact, that the naturalization rate was especially back then and even now very low for Turks, in the case of the Cambridge University study that is the entire subject of the study, I recommend anyone challenging this to actually read it before taking a position. On this statement, "2.3 million just in the 1990s, "mostly from Russia and Turkey." I specified Turks for a reason and gave clear sources for it. You can absolutely not use a source that groups Russia in as evidence when it doesn't divide how much of each. Even still the difference is there were several million ethnic German repatriates coming to Germany in the 1990s from the former Soviet Union, unlike for Turks Germany had a special program of automatic citizenship for people claiming German ancestry in the former Soviet Union so long as they could prove it. "All those who are able to demonstrate German ancestry are automatically granted German citizenship" [31] they were known as Spätaussiedler.
Anyways I'm going to do some more reading on the sources for the 7 million figure. None is from an actual study, if it turns out these books are all quoting the same speech or don't give primary sources at all that could be grounds for being considered unreliable. What I find astounding is that Sseevv is so obsessed over these staying in the infobox: I repeat it was never my intention to remove them from the article altogether. He was remarkably hostile from the get go and refuses to engage with the ideas or explanations I bring up. I'm biased towards myself of course but I don't think I've ignored his arguments, I rebutted them with the information I have. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 05:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Why would the lower number be "at least 4 million"You're right that saying "at least" is a bit strong since we really have no idea.
"when all these sources give the number between 2 and 2.7 million"I haven't read most of these but will do when I have the time. But I suspect that most of them simply rely on the microcensus and don't include 3rd, 4th, 5th-generation Germans of Turkish descent, whose number is unknowable - but I would say that those people still fall under the scope of this article, just like 10th generation German-Americans are covered by the article German-Americans. I did look at the study by McFadden and it does rely on the microcensus (and appears to misunderstand a crucial point in it - see next bullet point).
"Then there is the actual study about Turkish diaspora and German citizenship from 2019 that gives similar numbers for the number of Turkish descent and of those how many hold citizenship.[24][25]"I looked through the sources you posted, and they both cite the "microcensus" for their contention that only ~200,000 Turkish people have taken German citizenship. But the author seems to fundamentally misread what that number means. I followed the study's citation to the actual census (available here; it's only available in German though) and it clearly states that that number refers only to Turkish-German dual citizens (p. 10). The total number of first and second generation Turkish/Turkish-German people in Germany is 2.82 million (p. 68). Subtracting the number of Turkish citizens, 1.47 million as per [32], and adding the number of dual citizens to that results in 1.55 million German citizens of first or second-generation Turkish descent - much higher than the 200,000-500,000 given by the various studies you cited above. In this case I would give the official statistics precedence over the studies citing them. Even academic sources are occasionally wrong.
"You can absolutely not use a source that groups Russia in as evidence when it doesn't divide how much of each."Agreed, absolutely. I wasn't trying to use that source to establish a concrete number - the point I was trying to make was that the issue is too complex and has too many unknown variables for us to be able to say "because naturalization laws used to be strict, Turkish naturalization in Germany is a recent phenomenon, therefore the Turkish population in Germany can be largely accounted for." The number would definitely be higher if the third generation and onwards is included - how much higher is impossible to know. -- Tserton ( talk) 07:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I would ask any and all who want to weigh in on this subject to read the following carefully:
Sseevv completely relegated the 2.7 million census figure to a footnote on the infobox last week, and the main body exclusively featured the number 4 million to 7 million(apparantly Tserton agrees with this, I don't). Sseevv, as I told you numerous times earlier in the discussion migration background is counted by citizenship at birth going two generations back,
[34] Turks in Germany even three and four generations down etc are considered "migration background from Turkey" if they, or one their parents, still posses Turkish citizenship at birth so the accompanying statement "(first and second generation immigrants only)" is objectively false, since immigrant does not just refer to those who have been naturalized. It can in theory go on indefinitely if they retain foreign citizenship. When any foreigner acquires German citizenship it would then take two generations down before they would no longer be considered "migration background"(and holding dual German-Turkish citizenship as a significant number do you would still be considered migration background), I repeat both of your parents have to be born as German citizens before you are no longer counted as migration background. I am rewording the footnote accordingly. I also told you about how Turks and other foreigners were generally not able to acquire German citizenship at birth (unless inherited from a German parent), until the law reforms introduced in 1999-2005 (see earlier in discussion for the sources), the only major exception to this rule were the 4.5 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Soviet Union. Until that time German citizenship law was based on the concept of
Jus sanguinis. (source Immigration, Public Policy, and Health: Newcomer Experiences in Developed Nations pages 214-215).
I won't allow the 2011 census being relegated to a footnote until there is further discussion and consensus, its parameters are flawed because it does not explicitly identify ethnicity, but it is the only primary source based on actual census data in the infobox. In addition the other sources that I had added in the 2.7 million range that you removed were also from academic research, for the time being I am re-adding them, it is misleading to say "academic estimates" and then cherry pick only the sources that agree with the number you want. I also removed the more partisan wording from the main body: bringing up that Helmuth Kohl's speech mentioned a higher number than the census before it took place, that "as of 2020 many scholars have given the number as seven million", and "many authors have said at least or more than 4 million" (several of the sources you cite for this don't even say that) etc are specifaclly to abrogate lower numbers. Well guess what? There are authors who have put the number far lower than that since the census, that's like me citing all of those and saying "many authors have put the number lower than 3 million". let the stats stand on their own. For one thing I would recommond all to go through the sources, Sseevv has added a large number of citaions and only a handful are not from recent news articles which has hugely increased the research I have had to do, when you go through each you see the problem. I reduced the number of citations as the clutter when editing has reached ridiculous levels, which is precisely what has complicated my arguments, there does not need to be 20 citations of recent news articles saying the same things with the same lack of primary sources.
On the 7 million figure still in the infobox, this is the main point of contention so I will not touch it until there is some sort of understanding. Firstly, my position is that it does not belong in the infobox but in the main body of the article due to the possible unreliability (which I am about to go into detail about) of the sources it uses, but I have never advocated for it to be removed entirely. Sseevv has added a large number of citations to protect this statistic. So far there are six citations for it in the infobox. Three of them are news articles, all from the past six months after Sseevv first added the 7 million figure to the infobox. News articles are not considered a reliable source for statistical information anyways, but a specific danger is the possible usage of information from Wikipedia itself by these news articles, in fact several more news sites are cited in the main body (there are no actual published works cited aside the ones below and one or two in the main body of the wiki article that do not give methodolgy or a primary source) that are also from this recent time frame. Regarding the three remaining citations:
In my view this should not be included in the infobox. I will add that Sseevv's supporting arguments do no stand up to scrutiny either. He says that the population must have grown since 1997 which I challenged by showing that the Turkish-descent birthdates are now nearly as low as native Germans, [38] and that more Turks have been emigrating from Germany than immigrating to it for at least awhile.(page 285 Nordic, Central, and Southeastern Europe 2018-2019). He has stated that ethnic Turks from other countries could make up the difference between the census (and other sources) and the seven million figure, but has given no sources showing that there are even a significant number from other countries. The sources given in this article for ethnic Turks in Germany from other European countries in fact all give figures of a few thousand each, that isn't much, and many use news articles yet again. In the case of one it in fact misquotes the source to inflate the number in Germany [39], In the wikipedia article it says 20,000 Lebanese Turks settled in Germany, when the actual source says "To date more than 20,000 Turkish citizens have fled Lebanon, forced to take refuge in Germany and various other European countries." I corrected this in my most recent edit. I hope I'm not the only one seeing a pattern here. Tserton, if we agreed to removed the 3 million figure because a political speech from Kohl was unreliable why not the same with the 7 million figure? More than enough debating has gone back and forth, and I am not convinced by Sseevv's arguments, and the sources are not reliable in my opinion. Third opinions have been expressed but haven't really helped in reaching an understanding thus far, so I am submitting a Wikipedia:Requests for comment, and I would suggest waiting before further revisions.
As an aside my other personal recommandations for the article would be to reduce the number of citations and clutter, and maybe have a section discussing the liberalization of Germany's citizenship laws from 1999 to 2005. Thank you. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 13:05, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, this has boiled down to a disagreement on the reliability of the sources.Having reread more of the discussion, the debate has become more narrowly about whether to include the census, so this exercise isn't immediately useful to solve that. I'll keep populating the table, though, because I'm still a bit confused about what the sources say and think it'd be useful to have an overview. I think it would be useful to gather the existing sources and what they say in a table. That might help put the dispute on a more solid footing and help uninvolved editors understand it. I'll create a new section below and put in a table template. Everyone please feel free to populate it - but don't put in clearly unreliable sources like off-the-cuff remarks by politicians. And keep it succinct. Unnecessary detail is the fastest way to turn people off reading something. --
Tserton (
talk) 06:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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What sources and figures should be favored in the infobox for Turks in Germany? Will Tyson for real ( talk) 13:49, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous. Who examines the quality and objectivity of it? Obviously nobody! It seems to be written by Grey Wolves. Like any other European country Germany has a functioning system of official statistics published by the Statistische Bundesamt, which states that there are between 2,7 and 2.8 m. people with Turkish roots in the country. That's the official number that belongs in the infobox, not 4 or even 7 m. There are 1.472.390 people with a Turkish passport in the country. And it is not a "government estimate" when Helmut Kohl eventually guessed that number in public in 1997. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spatzenversteher ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
There is an extensive List of Turkish Germans page and therefore no need to repeat it all here. To avoid making the sub-headings extremely bulky it is best to place notable Turkish Germans who have gained prestigious awards, won elections, or represented a nation-state in sports/music etc. Most importantly, all information needs to be cited with references and written in a formal manner to fit the academic tone of this article. I have already volunteered to help expand this, and I more than welcome a discussion in which we can plan the best way to go about this. Sseevv ( talk) 22:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the list of mosques adds to the article - quite the opposite, I think it breaks the flow of the page since most readers are just going to scroll past it. Also, currently only two of the mosques have their own articles on the English Wikipedia, so it's not clear how "notable" they really are. How do people feel about condensing it to 2-3 mosques and putting in some text instead? For example, there's a decent amount of interesting information about how Turkish mosques are run, like the controversial role of DİTİB. Alternatively (or additionally) we could split off the list into its own article, although I'm not sure it would survive a notability challenge given there's already a List of mosques in Germany. -- Tserton ( talk) 09:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
There are also Turkish speaking Muslim Roma in Germany. The first Group came as Gastarbeiter from Turkey, the so called Romanlar, (romani in turkey), the Host population saw them as Turks like other Ethnic Turkish Gastarbeiter. The second Turkish Muslim Roma Groups in Germany, are from Bulgaria and Romania (Dobruja), they came to Germany when Bulgaria and Romania became member of the EU. The first Group are fully assimilated in Turkish society in Germany, nobody look them as Romani people. They havent anything to do with other Romani-Groups. Nalanidil ( talk) 16:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
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I have changed the class from start to B.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The link: Statistisches Bundesamt (2008), Statistical Yearbook 2008 For the Federal Republic of Germany has automatically changed to the 2009 yearbook! So I will change the population figures of Turkish citizens from 1,713,600 (2008) to 1,688,370 (2009) which means that 25,230 have become German citizens this year. Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 13:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
What about the Turkish population in Germany after 1980? The statisticals shows only before 1980 here. --
212.154.117.108 (
talk) 07:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Using "ethnicity" sounds discriminative, as some -if not most- of these people belong to a distinct etnicity (Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc). Also Turkish is a national noun, its ethnical counterpart should be Turkic which would include Azeris and others as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.209.22 ( talk) 14:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
These to sections are lacking compared to the rest of the article. Lets improve it! Turco85 ( Talk) 17:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This article quotes a magazine called The Spiegel, stating that "only 14% have the Abitur (that's less than 50% compared to the German population, and also much lesser than other immigrated groups)", but I think The Spiegel got something wrong, because according to what I heard about that study on TV not 14% of turkish of any age-group, but 14% of turkish youngsters graduating from German schools this year received the Abitur. It is also not true that this is less than 50% compared to the German population. In 2008 only 18% of Germans of all age-groups held a Abitur ( http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2541399/Migranten-haben-oefter-Abitur-als-Deutsche.html). However it is true that ethnic German youngsters graduating from German schools that year were twice as likely as turkish youngsters to receive an Abitur. (Sorry for my english, it's not my native language).— 212.201.83.30 ( talk) 17:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Staatsangehörigen Italiens und Serbien-Montenegros: in beiden Gruppen finden wir mehr Sonderschüler als Gymnasiasten. Das Gros der Schüler in diesen beiden Gruppen ist darüber hinaus in der Hauptschule zu finden, nur kleinere Prozentsätze besuchen Gymnasien und Realschulen. Während diese Tatsache bei den Staatsangehörigen Serbien-Montenegros mit der langen Tradition der Unterdrückung der Kultur der kosovo-albanischen Minderheit erklärt werden kann, die für eine ganze Generation auch ein nichtfunktionierendes Schulsystem zur Folge hatte, ist die Tatsache für die italienischen Kinder in Deutschland zunächst überraschend. Sie wird deswegen ausführlicher behandelt. Die türkische Gruppe als größte Zuwanderergruppe bietet zwar ein besseres Bild in bezug auf die Relation Gymnasiasten- Sonderschüler, auch hier ist aber klar ein gravierender Überhang der Hauptschul-Population zu erkennen. Wie der Aufsatz zu den Aleviten in unserem Band exemplarisch zeigt, gibt es aber auch innerhalb der aus der Türkei stammenden Bevölkerung durchaus erfolgreiche Gruppen. Zu berücksichtigen ist darüber hinaus, dass inzwischen etwa 700.000 Menschen türkischen Ursprungs eingebürgert sind. Da dies tendenziell gut integrierte Zuwanderer sind, wird der Bildungserfolg der türkischen Zuwanderer unterschätzt, wenn man auf die Definition Staatsangehörigkeit abstellt, wie dies die amtliche Statistik tut.-- Greatgreenwhale ( talk) 21:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this sentence is wrong, because while they were not automatically entitled of German citizenship, they still might apply for it. It was not like they were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale ( talk) 20:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Atheism is not a religion and therefore seems illogical to have in this section. Furthermore, the majority of Turks in Germany are actually more religious than in say Turkey or Cyprus were Secularism dominates. Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 10:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The following section is being disputed. It seems as though one user by the name of Massadanarti does not see this sentence as a form of discrimination:
I for one believe that the reference is a demonstration of racism towards the Turkish community and have therefore replaced the deleted sentence. Turco85 ( Talk) 14:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
If "Turks in Germany" means "turkish ethnicity in Gemany", German and Turkish may be correct. If it means "People in Germany originating in Turkey", Kurdish must be included, as well as Armenian (to a lesser extend).
There are many Kurds from Turkey in Germany (who also speak Turkish), and some ethnic Armenians also immigrated. -- 141.70.81.136 ( talk) 12:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Since many members of Christian minorities (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) also emigrated to Germany, due to repressions by the Turkish state in the past, they form a larger percentage in the German-Turkish population than they do in Turkey. I don't have figures here, but I think they should be included in the Religion part of the infobox. -- megA ( talk) 13:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Isn't this figure moot? For example a person born and raised in Germany, from one (ethnic) German parent and one (ethnic) Turkish parent is, by definition of the Statistisches Bundesamt, a German with migratory background. And thus part of the 3.5 or 4 million. So, is he Turkish or German? By law, he is German, not a "Turk with German citizenship". There is no such thing.
"3.5 million people of Turkish origin living in Germany" – correctly phrased
"...estimate that there are now more than 4 million Turks in Germany" Nope, there are 1.7 million Turks in Germany. 2.3 million are Germans with (half or full) Turkish ethnicity. --
megA (
talk) 14:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The numbers in the table provided in this section do not make much sense, especially the "percentage of Turks living in Germany", probably due to incremental editing without updating everything. First the numbers do not up to 100%, even accounting for rounding it's too far away, second, many of the numbers do not make sense - 60.000 Turks each in Bremen and Schleswig Holstein get different shares of the whole community, double pop figures do not mean double percentage features and so on. -- Ulkomaalainen ( talk) 00:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
This article says that 4-5% of the population has Turkish background, but according to Demographics of Germany 3,7% of the population has Turkish background. There should be a fact check on which number is correct in order not to let Wikipedia look contradictional.-- Charlene1989 ( talk) 07:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC) that also bother me too,Did you find the answer yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
This section is renamed to 'Integration Problems'. It can not be named as 'segregation'. None of the references, one of them is a dead link talks about segregation at all. Whoever initially started this, clearly extrapolating. Segregation is illegal in Germany and is not practice anywhere in Germany, including Ethnically rich cities. If there were any segregationist movement or views buy turks, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar. -- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 21:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
This section is written in a biased attitude based an extrapolated conclusion on a survey which reliability is in question. Neutrality of that section is very much disputed.
--
83.97.72.14 (
talk) 18:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
-- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 21:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
-- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 01:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
@Rjensen, There are some original research works in ethnic segregation in Germany [3] [4] [ [5]], Maybe you can write a separate article about this with your academic background in general. I think it is a generic issue with immigrants in the country and it must not be restricted to turks, this article. But I am not sure if these sources are acceptable in wikipedia standard, it still looks like OR, no original research policy. -- 83.97.72.14 ( talk) 02:39, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
As I understand German officials do not distinguish between Turk and Kurd, but does anyone know what % of the est. 3.5 million Turks in Germany are of Kurdish origin? I would like to include this in the article if anybody knows. It's an important cultural distinction. Oxr033 ( talk) 23:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
What about Turks from bulgaria and greece. There has been a migration especially from bulgaria to germany. So the number of Turks in germany is higher than expected. One of the most famous Turk from greece is Cemile Giousouf (Cemile Yusuf), a parlamentarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.156.50 ( talk) 10:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
ok,just for example,If there was a man who was of Turkish origin,And his parents were German citizens when he was born, but his grandparents were immigrants and arrived now Germany after 1955(Typical guest workers like many others), here is the question,would this gay or others like him be count as a man with Migrant background? or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
I found a source about a survey that discussed attitudes held by the Turks in Germany. Would this be relevant?
WhisperToMe ( talk) 08:17, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Useful link: http://www.dw.com/tr/almanyadaki-%C3%BCnl%C3%BC-t%C3%BCrkler/g-17016295 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.107.66 ( talk) 09:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
This article obviously has various issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism. To name some examples:
These issues should and must be addressed, for the article to do justice to its topic. I am seriously considering if a POV template is needed for the article. -- 2A1ZA ( talk) 23:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I removed the following timeline from the page; it was not sourced and seems unnecessary.
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The doesn't seem to be a single questionable fact and the list offers a very nice overview. Authors have invested significant work here and if a single point is questioned it should be supported with a source instead of deleted. Deleting it all is utter nonsense.
This looks like vandalism a lot! 06:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I love the atheo-Turks. They are my brothers.
Comments are not allowed in Wikipedia, but we have to push in life to take our place, because the others don't respect us if we don't push for our rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8455:D100:3060:E6E8:A680:A948 ( talk) 16:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I can't figure out how to add books to that further reading template: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/turkish-germans-in-the-federal-republic-of-germany/BEDD8126B86F81E3C59D178045A3D88D Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 15:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Not to be pedantic, but the term "German Turks" or "German-Turkish" refers to Turkish people of German descent. The correct term for this article is "Turkish-German" (with or without hyphen). I'm changing the instances of this term in this article correspondingly. Similarly, "Turks in Germany" is also incorrect, unless it actually refers to Turkish citizens in Germany. I'm sure no one meant any harm using these phrases in this article, but I would argue for erring on the side of precision, not least given the historical difficulties Turkish-Germans have faced (and continue to face) in being recognized as "fully" German. -- Tserton ( talk) 08:44, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm revising the estimates on the number of people of Turkish ancestry in Germany. Currently the estimate of seven million is listed under "academic estimates" yet multiple sources cited don't mention it or come from politicians during political speeches, only one source comes from a professor. It contradicts heavily with official estimates, making it inappropriate for the infobox. The numbers used on this Article as of August 14th are more accurate to the research consensus. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 14:54, 30 November 2020 (UTC)#
Further, your claim that only 500,000 Turks have German citizenship is incorrect. In 2020 there were already reports that 1 million Turks were in danger of losing their German citizenship because they are suspected of holding dual nationality (and this is only including those who are suspected of it) [21]. Sseevv ( talk) 22:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Regardless how many have been naturalized in recent years doesn't particularly matter to the main point of whether the 7 million figure is plausible enough for the infobox. The conjecture you give about the possibility that the 7 million figure could be reconciled against the much lower estimates seems to rest on the idea mass naturalization occurring recently (since you consider 2006 to be too old for accurate information even though I've given far more current ones and sources that support the idea there hasn't been much population growth in general) means large numbers of naturalized Turks wouldn't be counted as being of Turkish background. This is pointless, since "migration background" is dependent on the citizenships your grandparents were born with, not what citizenship you have either at birth or later in life, hence "migration background" rather than simply "migrant". Its at least been established that naturalizations of Turks is a recent phenomena (and they are still rather low for how many are eligible and compared to the rate of naturalization for other groups) due to revisions of citizenship laws in 1999, 2000, and 2005, so this would not significantly effect it, regardless of how many acquired it since, again you acquiring citizenship wouldn't change the citizenship your parents or grandparents are born with. This is your fundamental misunderstanding, Turks born in Germany in the early 1990s for example were usually born as Turkish citizens. So while its true German census data does not track ethnicity as such, given that German citizenship until recently was passed through a parent rather than whether or not you were born in Germany, it gives an accurate picture. You could always argue that hundreds of thousands of Turks intermarried with Germans and their children acquired citizenship in earlier decades, but German-Turkish intermarriage very uncommon, and if you want me to provide a multitude more sources proving that fact I will. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 03:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Just to put it out there for anyone else following this thread, the German Embassy in the US said the following in 2011 (i.e. almost 10 years ago) see here for archived link:
Therefore, the above user's push to change the infobox figures to less than 2.5 million Turks in Germany with only 500,000 holding German citizenship is beyond ridiculous and a waste of my time. Sseevv ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I have to admit to being a little confused as to the substance of this dispute - there seem to be several things going on. If I understand correctly: no one seems to dispute the accuracy or up-to-date-ness of the numbers published by Germany's official statistics numbers; the issue seems to be who counts as Turkish - i.e. whether Kurds and ethnic Turks from outside the modern Turkish state should be included. Is that correct? Or is the disagreement simply over which sources to regard as authoritative?
A few thoughts:
If I've correctly identified the meat of the dispute, I would propose this: give the number cited by Germany's statistics office (~3 million), noting that it only encompasses first and second generation Turks and Turkish-Germans, and also say that estimates of the total number people of Turkish descent living in Germany is around ___. (We should look at the reliability of the sources for that number, and whether the sources implies that their estimate comes from actual data-based projections, or just gut-feeling.) -- Tserton ( talk) 01:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Nonetheless, I would be fine with placing the 2011 census here if we expressly state what it represents. As you say, some users seem to assume that just because it is a state census, citizens are declaring their ethnicity - which isn't the case with most European censuses. Censuses in Western European countries generally do not report in the same way as the US, Canada, the former USSR or the Balkans which allow citizens to declare ethnicity.
In general, many of the ethnic group articles on Germany are using the German census incorrectly. E.g. Arabs in Germany is using all statistics on majority Arabic-speaking countries and representing all citizens as "Arabs" without showing the diversity of these migration waves which include Kurds, Berbers, Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and many more. The majority of X in Germany articles are doing this, which is a total misrepresentation of figures. Sseevv ( talk) 14:54, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
To Tserton's post above (and to anyone else who doesn't want to sift through the previous walls of text to figure out whats going on): the primary dispute was not about the 2011 German census, this came up later. It was about the sources cited for the 7 million number. It was given as "academic sources" in the infobox when in reality the sources being used for that number came entirely from questionable sources like political speeches (some of which were being cited by academics and thus called that, but nonetheless were quoting those speechs only as a primary source) and so were many of the 4 million numbers as they came from embassy estimates. My proposal was just like yours: get the 7 million number out of the infobox. Personally I think it shouldn't even be in the article, but I thought keeping it in the demographic section would be a good compromise. I also didn't think that many sources (all qouting the same speech) was needed, but Sseevv accused me of vandalism. Regarding the German census, please read my post near the top starting with "I'm noticing yet another issue..." The census was misquoted as saying "at least one parent born in Turkey" when it includes several generations up based on what citizenship they were born with. Sseevv then tried to claim that the real number of Turks in Germany must be much higher (thus giving the seven million figure more creditability) because it is not strictly ethnic background. However there are several false assumptions in his belief: for one thing as I mentioned before naturalization of Turks in Germany is a recent phenomenon, and even since then (1999-2005 when these laws changed) being born in Germany does not automatically gain you citizenship. So no, it is not accurate to say "migration background" only includes first and second generation, since there are a large number Turks in Germany today whose grandparents immigrated in the 1950s, but it wasn't until two generations down that they received German citizenship (the vast majority still haven't). Thus even Turks born recently in Germany in most cases would still be classified as "migration background" since their parents or grandparents werent born with German citizenship. Regardless this is all original research from him not sourced that I was responding to. If you want to note that the German census isn't strictly about ethnicity thats fine, but any implication attached that implies most research puts it much higher is false and requires a source explicitly saying that. This implication is made as it is by having that statement followed by "other estimates" of which the extremely high figures are exclusively used, despite the sources being unreliable.
I cited many sources for these statements earlier - particulary in regards to the low number of Turks with German citizenship, to which all Sseevv could counter with was a statement from an embassy and a single news article. The second false assumption in this is that everyone coming to Germany from Turkey is an ethnic Kurd. Most statistics say around 1 million of those of Turkish migrant background are ethnically Kurdish, so if anything the German census not strictly relating to ethnicity implies the number of Turks being lower than the census. Sseevv then made a series of vague arguments trying to explain how that ridiculously high number, at odds with all serious academics and from a unreliable source, could be viable. First claiming that the number of ethnic Turks from other countries (like Greece which has a minority of them) could make up the difference, but not giving any source to how many that would be, I doubt its very much personally. Secondly if Kohl said there were three million Turks in Germany in the 1990s (he refuses to believe its unreliable as a source) therefor the Turkish population must have grown. I rebutted with a source stating that the ethnic Turkish birthrate was quite low, and further Turkish migration to Germany is no longer a major phenomenon and that there is also such thing as return emigration.
Next he simply moved to saying that my sources must be wrong because they contradict the embassy estimates and political speeches he cited. Note that everything else besides this question is moot: the fundamental problem is he is using unreliable sources against the myriad of third party academic sources I have given. I chose to engage with his other explanations (which only seems to have confused things) for how that number could be reached so we could have a discussion and I could show that there was other supporting evidence for the argument I make. But again, he simply has not given reliable sources where as I gave sources that adhere to Wikipedia guidelines. As for the Russian Germans article that Sseevv brings up: firstly that number seems to have been added to that article recently, so perhaps other authors havent noticed it rather than it being accepted. And secondly there might not be other sources to chose from. An even bigger point I'm making is it isn't just that the sources in use here are questionable, there are sound sources I have given from actual academic works dedicated to the subject, so there is no excuse for them to stay. "Surely the source should be ringing alarm bells to you when you see that it claims '246,000' have obtained German citizenship. This is simply not true." these are the kind of statements he makes regarding third party academic sources, the only evidence he gave to the contrary was a news article. Yet he has been free to edit this article several dozens times since this started. I would recommend everyone to look through the revision history of the article, though that has been hugely complicated by all the editing he has done whilst reverting everyone else. One thing you'll find is I am not challenging a longstanding agreement on the infobox, he himself added the 7 million figure without comment. [27] Am I the only one seeing a problem with the way he has responded to me not even including the accusations of vandalism and sock puppets? Thanks. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 05:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Will Tyson for real:, thanks for finally showing your motivation: to remove higher-end estimates. Firstly, they are not all quoting the same speech. Please accept that there are a range of estimates on Turks in Germany: an FBIS report (a intelligence component of CIA - which is also widely cited on Wikipedia) said there were three million Turks in 1994 ( page 69); Professor Clifford Geertz has estimated that there was two million Turks in Berlin in the 2000s; Professor Daniel Goldhagen said in 2013 that six million Turks were in Germany (almost half of which were German citizens) [28]. In short, there is a range of estimates between four and seven million, the estimate of 3 million dates back decades. I have dozens of sources ready to illustrate this.
@ Spatzenversteher:'s recent edit and explanation in the article illustrates my point. This opinion that the census includes five generations of Turkish Germans is simply not true. And where does the 800,000 figure for Kurdish-Turkish people appear in the German census? Of course, the census includes Kurds from Turkey, but as I've said many times before the census does not collect data on ethnicity. One cannot use official sources and manipulate them to "prove" a point. The census does not show the number of Balkan Turks, Levantine Turks etc. either, it does not fall to us to use the census in a manipulative way - as several editors have done in their 2020 edits. Sseevv ( talk) 15:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
For the infobox: the more succinct, the better. Infoboxes are meant to provide information at a glance, so if it's long most people are going to skip it and just read the article text instead and this whole debate is for naught. So I would favor phrasing it like so: at least 4 million [2-3 sources], some estimates range up to 7 million [2-3 sources]. Since it's much less complete, I would not include the results of the census in the infobox and instead mention it only in the text. If there's a strong preference for thoroughness, we can put that number in as well - just be wary of clutter. And absolutely remove the statements by Kohl, and preferably the one from the embassy as well. Embassy statements might do in a pinch, but we're not in a pinch - the number frome the embassy is also cited by a great number of other sources. If someone is strongly in favor of mentioning those sources I would suggest putting it to an RfC.
In the main text of the article: here we can should fully explain that the census offers an incomplete snapshot and why, and why it's difficult to make a firm projection.
What do you think? --
Tserton (
talk) 02:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Then there is the actual study about Turkish diaspora and German citizenship from 2019 that gives similar numbers for the number of Turkish descent and of those how many hold citizenship. [29] [30] And I gave previous sources about the Turkish naturalization. Every source I have given has corroborated this fact, that the naturalization rate was especially back then and even now very low for Turks, in the case of the Cambridge University study that is the entire subject of the study, I recommend anyone challenging this to actually read it before taking a position. On this statement, "2.3 million just in the 1990s, "mostly from Russia and Turkey." I specified Turks for a reason and gave clear sources for it. You can absolutely not use a source that groups Russia in as evidence when it doesn't divide how much of each. Even still the difference is there were several million ethnic German repatriates coming to Germany in the 1990s from the former Soviet Union, unlike for Turks Germany had a special program of automatic citizenship for people claiming German ancestry in the former Soviet Union so long as they could prove it. "All those who are able to demonstrate German ancestry are automatically granted German citizenship" [31] they were known as Spätaussiedler.
Anyways I'm going to do some more reading on the sources for the 7 million figure. None is from an actual study, if it turns out these books are all quoting the same speech or don't give primary sources at all that could be grounds for being considered unreliable. What I find astounding is that Sseevv is so obsessed over these staying in the infobox: I repeat it was never my intention to remove them from the article altogether. He was remarkably hostile from the get go and refuses to engage with the ideas or explanations I bring up. I'm biased towards myself of course but I don't think I've ignored his arguments, I rebutted them with the information I have. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 05:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Why would the lower number be "at least 4 million"You're right that saying "at least" is a bit strong since we really have no idea.
"when all these sources give the number between 2 and 2.7 million"I haven't read most of these but will do when I have the time. But I suspect that most of them simply rely on the microcensus and don't include 3rd, 4th, 5th-generation Germans of Turkish descent, whose number is unknowable - but I would say that those people still fall under the scope of this article, just like 10th generation German-Americans are covered by the article German-Americans. I did look at the study by McFadden and it does rely on the microcensus (and appears to misunderstand a crucial point in it - see next bullet point).
"Then there is the actual study about Turkish diaspora and German citizenship from 2019 that gives similar numbers for the number of Turkish descent and of those how many hold citizenship.[24][25]"I looked through the sources you posted, and they both cite the "microcensus" for their contention that only ~200,000 Turkish people have taken German citizenship. But the author seems to fundamentally misread what that number means. I followed the study's citation to the actual census (available here; it's only available in German though) and it clearly states that that number refers only to Turkish-German dual citizens (p. 10). The total number of first and second generation Turkish/Turkish-German people in Germany is 2.82 million (p. 68). Subtracting the number of Turkish citizens, 1.47 million as per [32], and adding the number of dual citizens to that results in 1.55 million German citizens of first or second-generation Turkish descent - much higher than the 200,000-500,000 given by the various studies you cited above. In this case I would give the official statistics precedence over the studies citing them. Even academic sources are occasionally wrong.
"You can absolutely not use a source that groups Russia in as evidence when it doesn't divide how much of each."Agreed, absolutely. I wasn't trying to use that source to establish a concrete number - the point I was trying to make was that the issue is too complex and has too many unknown variables for us to be able to say "because naturalization laws used to be strict, Turkish naturalization in Germany is a recent phenomenon, therefore the Turkish population in Germany can be largely accounted for." The number would definitely be higher if the third generation and onwards is included - how much higher is impossible to know. -- Tserton ( talk) 07:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I would ask any and all who want to weigh in on this subject to read the following carefully:
Sseevv completely relegated the 2.7 million census figure to a footnote on the infobox last week, and the main body exclusively featured the number 4 million to 7 million(apparantly Tserton agrees with this, I don't). Sseevv, as I told you numerous times earlier in the discussion migration background is counted by citizenship at birth going two generations back,
[34] Turks in Germany even three and four generations down etc are considered "migration background from Turkey" if they, or one their parents, still posses Turkish citizenship at birth so the accompanying statement "(first and second generation immigrants only)" is objectively false, since immigrant does not just refer to those who have been naturalized. It can in theory go on indefinitely if they retain foreign citizenship. When any foreigner acquires German citizenship it would then take two generations down before they would no longer be considered "migration background"(and holding dual German-Turkish citizenship as a significant number do you would still be considered migration background), I repeat both of your parents have to be born as German citizens before you are no longer counted as migration background. I am rewording the footnote accordingly. I also told you about how Turks and other foreigners were generally not able to acquire German citizenship at birth (unless inherited from a German parent), until the law reforms introduced in 1999-2005 (see earlier in discussion for the sources), the only major exception to this rule were the 4.5 million ethnic Germans repatriated from the Soviet Union. Until that time German citizenship law was based on the concept of
Jus sanguinis. (source Immigration, Public Policy, and Health: Newcomer Experiences in Developed Nations pages 214-215).
I won't allow the 2011 census being relegated to a footnote until there is further discussion and consensus, its parameters are flawed because it does not explicitly identify ethnicity, but it is the only primary source based on actual census data in the infobox. In addition the other sources that I had added in the 2.7 million range that you removed were also from academic research, for the time being I am re-adding them, it is misleading to say "academic estimates" and then cherry pick only the sources that agree with the number you want. I also removed the more partisan wording from the main body: bringing up that Helmuth Kohl's speech mentioned a higher number than the census before it took place, that "as of 2020 many scholars have given the number as seven million", and "many authors have said at least or more than 4 million" (several of the sources you cite for this don't even say that) etc are specifaclly to abrogate lower numbers. Well guess what? There are authors who have put the number far lower than that since the census, that's like me citing all of those and saying "many authors have put the number lower than 3 million". let the stats stand on their own. For one thing I would recommond all to go through the sources, Sseevv has added a large number of citaions and only a handful are not from recent news articles which has hugely increased the research I have had to do, when you go through each you see the problem. I reduced the number of citations as the clutter when editing has reached ridiculous levels, which is precisely what has complicated my arguments, there does not need to be 20 citations of recent news articles saying the same things with the same lack of primary sources.
On the 7 million figure still in the infobox, this is the main point of contention so I will not touch it until there is some sort of understanding. Firstly, my position is that it does not belong in the infobox but in the main body of the article due to the possible unreliability (which I am about to go into detail about) of the sources it uses, but I have never advocated for it to be removed entirely. Sseevv has added a large number of citations to protect this statistic. So far there are six citations for it in the infobox. Three of them are news articles, all from the past six months after Sseevv first added the 7 million figure to the infobox. News articles are not considered a reliable source for statistical information anyways, but a specific danger is the possible usage of information from Wikipedia itself by these news articles, in fact several more news sites are cited in the main body (there are no actual published works cited aside the ones below and one or two in the main body of the wiki article that do not give methodolgy or a primary source) that are also from this recent time frame. Regarding the three remaining citations:
In my view this should not be included in the infobox. I will add that Sseevv's supporting arguments do no stand up to scrutiny either. He says that the population must have grown since 1997 which I challenged by showing that the Turkish-descent birthdates are now nearly as low as native Germans, [38] and that more Turks have been emigrating from Germany than immigrating to it for at least awhile.(page 285 Nordic, Central, and Southeastern Europe 2018-2019). He has stated that ethnic Turks from other countries could make up the difference between the census (and other sources) and the seven million figure, but has given no sources showing that there are even a significant number from other countries. The sources given in this article for ethnic Turks in Germany from other European countries in fact all give figures of a few thousand each, that isn't much, and many use news articles yet again. In the case of one it in fact misquotes the source to inflate the number in Germany [39], In the wikipedia article it says 20,000 Lebanese Turks settled in Germany, when the actual source says "To date more than 20,000 Turkish citizens have fled Lebanon, forced to take refuge in Germany and various other European countries." I corrected this in my most recent edit. I hope I'm not the only one seeing a pattern here. Tserton, if we agreed to removed the 3 million figure because a political speech from Kohl was unreliable why not the same with the 7 million figure? More than enough debating has gone back and forth, and I am not convinced by Sseevv's arguments, and the sources are not reliable in my opinion. Third opinions have been expressed but haven't really helped in reaching an understanding thus far, so I am submitting a Wikipedia:Requests for comment, and I would suggest waiting before further revisions.
As an aside my other personal recommandations for the article would be to reduce the number of citations and clutter, and maybe have a section discussing the liberalization of Germany's citizenship laws from 1999 to 2005. Thank you. Will Tyson for real ( talk) 13:05, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, this has boiled down to a disagreement on the reliability of the sources.Having reread more of the discussion, the debate has become more narrowly about whether to include the census, so this exercise isn't immediately useful to solve that. I'll keep populating the table, though, because I'm still a bit confused about what the sources say and think it'd be useful to have an overview. I think it would be useful to gather the existing sources and what they say in a table. That might help put the dispute on a more solid footing and help uninvolved editors understand it. I'll create a new section below and put in a table template. Everyone please feel free to populate it - but don't put in clearly unreliable sources like off-the-cuff remarks by politicians. And keep it succinct. Unnecessary detail is the fastest way to turn people off reading something. --
Tserton (
talk) 06:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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What sources and figures should be favored in the infobox for Turks in Germany? Will Tyson for real ( talk) 13:49, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous. Who examines the quality and objectivity of it? Obviously nobody! It seems to be written by Grey Wolves. Like any other European country Germany has a functioning system of official statistics published by the Statistische Bundesamt, which states that there are between 2,7 and 2.8 m. people with Turkish roots in the country. That's the official number that belongs in the infobox, not 4 or even 7 m. There are 1.472.390 people with a Turkish passport in the country. And it is not a "government estimate" when Helmut Kohl eventually guessed that number in public in 1997. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spatzenversteher ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
There is an extensive List of Turkish Germans page and therefore no need to repeat it all here. To avoid making the sub-headings extremely bulky it is best to place notable Turkish Germans who have gained prestigious awards, won elections, or represented a nation-state in sports/music etc. Most importantly, all information needs to be cited with references and written in a formal manner to fit the academic tone of this article. I have already volunteered to help expand this, and I more than welcome a discussion in which we can plan the best way to go about this. Sseevv ( talk) 22:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the list of mosques adds to the article - quite the opposite, I think it breaks the flow of the page since most readers are just going to scroll past it. Also, currently only two of the mosques have their own articles on the English Wikipedia, so it's not clear how "notable" they really are. How do people feel about condensing it to 2-3 mosques and putting in some text instead? For example, there's a decent amount of interesting information about how Turkish mosques are run, like the controversial role of DİTİB. Alternatively (or additionally) we could split off the list into its own article, although I'm not sure it would survive a notability challenge given there's already a List of mosques in Germany. -- Tserton ( talk) 09:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
There are also Turkish speaking Muslim Roma in Germany. The first Group came as Gastarbeiter from Turkey, the so called Romanlar, (romani in turkey), the Host population saw them as Turks like other Ethnic Turkish Gastarbeiter. The second Turkish Muslim Roma Groups in Germany, are from Bulgaria and Romania (Dobruja), they came to Germany when Bulgaria and Romania became member of the EU. The first Group are fully assimilated in Turkish society in Germany, nobody look them as Romani people. They havent anything to do with other Romani-Groups. Nalanidil ( talk) 16:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)