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Archive 1 (April 2006—Sept 2008) |
It will be a good thing to have reliable source for the claim that the Turks in Bulgaria are a million and even more. Based on the Bulgarian National Census from 2001 the Turks in Bulgaria are 746,664 see here [1] Also, see Turks in Bulgaria, where the number is also the same. Moreover, in Islam in Bulgaria the number of all Muslims in the country is around 968,000, but not every Bulgarian Muslim is from Turkish ethnicity. Therefore, it will be important to have more reliable source on this issue. Thanks.
Stoichkov8 ( talk) 20:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
They are not Bulgarians. They are Bulgarian citizens.
Here is a list of notable Turks in Bulgaria who still do not have an article in English. *Note all these people have an article in either the Turkish or Bulgarian wiki's.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 14:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Hittit, unless I'm very much mistaken page 36 of the above book contains the following excerpt:
"Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified."
Why do you keep reverting this? Kostja ( talk) 18:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
"Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified." “Many converted villages retained their Bulgarian language, folk traditions etc….”
p.203 same book “In the early 1970s pomaks who had become Turkified were required to adopt Slav names, and those who did not were punished!”
Kostja you are very much mistaken since Cramton refers to Bulgarian Muslims known as pomaks. If you go on page 209 you will read where Crampton describes where the Bulgarian government officials introduced the nonsense during the Assimilation Campaing that Turks were not actually Turks but forcibly converted and Turkfied…
In his book “A short history of modern Bulgaria” on page 205 he also goes on the same topic and calls this “idiotic assertions”. Now you claim that Crampton makes “idiotic assertions” in his own book?
With this I believe it is enough to conclude that Crampton does not claim Turks were actually Turkified Bulgarians since he in fact calls this “idiotic”. When it comes to Bulgarian Speaking-Muslims a discussion/argumentation can be made in the article for Pomaks not Turks in Bulgaria.
I will keep reverting all idiotic assertions such as saying:
“Several millitant attacks were committed by an underground Turkish organisation (TNFM, a Turkish National Liberation Movement) in the period between 1984 and 1985, some before the campagn had started (December 1984)). The first attack was on August 30, 1984, when one bomb exploded on Plovdiv's railway station and another one in the Varna airport on a date when Todor Zhivkov was scheduled to visit the two towns.”
Footnote for this put as: ^ a b Улрих Бюксеншютц (2000) Малцинствената политика в България. Политиката на БКП към евреи, роми, помаци и турци (1944-1989), p.105
So we go on page 105 of the pdf and there is nothing saying that “Several millitant attacks were committed by an underground Turkish organisation (TNFM, a Turkish National Liberation Movement)” Not a word about TNFM…BTW there is no reference to TNFM until late (Dec) 1985 (since there was not TNFM priort to the Assimilation Camapign).
“Още на 30 август 1984 г. почти в едно и също време избухват две бомби, едната на гарата в Пловдив, другата - на летището във Варна, и то точно в деня, когато в двата града трябвало да дойде на посещение Тодор Живков. Още тогава у някои западни наблюдатели възниква подозрението, че бомбените атентати може да са свързани с изострянето на асимилационната политика на българското правителство спрямо турското малцинство. Свидетели разказват също, че след тези произшествия мерките за сигурност в цялата страна се засилват, което предизвиква едно почти параноично настроение. След като през март 1985 г. близо до София избухва още една бомба, този път в един препълнен железопътен вагон, при което има много убити жертви, правителството форсира законодателни мерки за борба с тероризма.[10] От разказа на един служител на МВР - участник в разследването, става ясно, че следствието от самото начало се концентрира върху турското население”
If anything Büchsenschütz puts forward his suspicions on who was really behind these acts of terror…you speak Bulgarian so read carefully. Now you want to put Büchsenschütz as a footnote saying the TNFM put bombs between 1984-1985 where in fact Büchsenschütz does not saying anything of that kind. You ask me with all seriousness why I keep reverting? Are you serious?
Hittit ( talk) 17:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Hittit, let me quote the exact statement again:
Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified. Many converted villages, on the other hand, retained their Bulgarian language, folk traditions and costumes. The Bulgarian-speaking Muslims became known as pomaks.
This clearly means that Crampton distinguishes two categories of converts: those who retained part of their culture and those who completely assimilated into Turkish culture. Considering that this is confirmed by historical sources (see, for exaple the interview by Midhat Pasha) and that the process of Turkification occurs even today among Pomaks in Greece and Bulgaria, I don't see any other reason except political partisanship to keep reverting this edit. TFNM was later blamed for the attacks. It may be correct to state doubts about the organization's responsibility, but it's not correct to remove all information about it or try to transfer the blame on the Bulgarian state. In any case, you have made other edits of doubtfull neutrality, which need to be reviewed. Kostja ( talk) 13:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
It's clearly stated by Norris that the story of the Sari Saltic has the charackeristics of a folk legend: "Such a migration has an umistakable charackter of a folk epic destan". Also the story of Seljuk wanderings to Dobrudja relies entirely on the account by Yazicioğlu Ali. The other authors also speculate on the origin of the Turks in Northeastern Bulgaria, but they advance very different theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
After many times of vandalism, random use of footnotes, personal opinions accompanied with false sources I requested this article be fully protected.
Kostja Provide Sources for your claims and opinions.
Kostja claims in the section Possible settlement of Turks in Bulgaria During the pre-Ottoman Period the following
1)“though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”. As source Kostja provides Mehmet Fuat Köprülü pp.53 – 54. Source specifically says “a number of Turks went to Dobruja". Source says that the tomb/grave of Sari Saltik is in Babadag. Kostja now goes on and puts a direct lie: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja”. Question is what sources Kostja? Are you lying or implying that since the tomb of Sari Saltik is in Babadag then the Turks immigrated only to Northern Dobruja? Which source says that? Kostja has him self quoted that it was in fact Dobruja and not Northern Dobruja, you had quoted Norris Kostja. 2)Kostja goes on and writes in the same section: “For these reasons it is unclear to which extent this group is connected with today's Turkish inhabitants of the region”. Kostja who is the source behind this sentence? Is that again your own interpretation?
In the section Participation in Bulgarian politics Kostja writes:
1)“MRF might be said to be overreprsented (for example, there were 38 MRF deputies (15.8% of the total in 2009, with the party receiving 610 521 votes - 14.5% of the vote, their highest to date) and only slightly more than 9% ethnic Turks, the party's main electorate).” As a source Kostja puts the 2009 election results. Kostja which source says the MRF is overrepresented? The MRF is a political party which attarcts many voters, if they gain 14,45% what makes you say they are overrepresented? Did they not get 14,45%?, if so why are they overrepresented and what is the sources behind this sentence? Again your own view?
In the section “Militant Attacks” 1)Adding to prof. Yanko Yankov’s claim that the State Security is involved in the terrorist attacks Kostja has added the following sentence: “though this has not been proven and is not a widely accepted theory” as a source he had put Yankov, after I reverted this lie several times he then put two Bulgarian language internet publications that merely describe the acts without taking any stance if the State Security link is proven or accepted. Kostja give the source? Is it Büchsenschütz again? You have any random footnotes you want to use? Hittit ( talk) 23:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
In "Early mystics in Turkish literature" it's mentioned on page 53 that the Turks went with Sari Saltik at the time when Kaykaus supposedly went to Dobrudja (which is disputed) so it was actually the same settlement. About the Pechenegs, Oğuz and Cumans who settled in Bulgaria - they were not Turks but possibly assimilated into Turks. Using the same standart, you could say that the Bulgarians have been in Bulgaria since antiquity as part of the pre-Slavic population was assimilated by the Slavs who settled in Bulgaria. Kostja ( talk) 21:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
In this context you have a source saying this or this is your own research and conclusion?Pls provide a quote of this citation so we can see where does it say BabaSaltuk the last settlement of the Muslims. So if I can summaries all the bellow sources write that the Seljuk Turks of Kay-Kaus settled in Dobruja. Dobruja is mentioned directly as the area of settlement, (some of the sources go further and mentioned Dobruja and seprately included/described the area as both in Bulgaria and Romania):1)Ив. К. Димитровъ, Прѣселение на селджукски турци въ Добруджа около срѣдата на XIII вѣкъ, стр. 32—33 2)P. Wittek, Yazijioghlu 'Ali on the Christian Turks of the Dobruja, pp. 640, 648 3)Mehmet Fuat Köprülü, Gary Leiser, Robert Dankoff; "Early mystics in Turkish literature", New York 2006, pp.53-54 4)Paul R. Brass, “Ethnic groups and the state” p.100 (Bulgarian and Romania mentioned) 5)Brian Glyn Williams, “The Crimean Tatars: the diaspora experience and the forging of a nation”, pp.204 6)John Renard, “Tales of God's Friends: Islamic Hagiography in Translation” pp.136 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned) 7)Charles King, “The Moldovans: Romania, Russia, and the politics of culture”, pp.210 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned) 8)H. T. Norris, “Islam in the Balkans: religion and society between Europe and the Arab world” pp.147 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned). After listing these scholars I think Kostja there is no room for your personal speculations, indications or suggestions. And that thing about the Tatar and southern point of the Muslims was very amusing lol Hittit ( talk) 07:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I completely agree that Babadag was Turkish however I do not agree that it was the only place where 12 000 families or 30 clans (depending on souces settled). If a sources says Dobruja + a tomb in Babadag in your mind this becomes the only settlement (no source speaks of one settlement but of one tomb, actually theare are several tombs but this is something else). Your only source also said the BabaSaltuk was the southern Nogais Tatar town so talk about confusing locations. You should have read my sources and there are many sources: e.g., Norris writes: “The evidence suggests that it is with coastal Bulgaria and the place called to this Babadag, in the Dobruja of Romania that the saint’s activities ultimately came to have a particular association” Brian Glyn Williams who states that Dobrotic who was the boyar of Dobruja was a descendant of the Seljuk Turks, same with Karpat Or how about Charles King when he writes: Fleeing from the Mongols, they are said to have received from the Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologous in Constantinople in 1261 an area of land along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Romania. Under their sultan Izz al-Din Kay-Kaus they established an independent state there with the present day city of Kavarna as it’s capital I am prepared for a correct version supporting all sources. I propose the removal of the sentence: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”) and replacement with the following: According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Babadag situated in modern day Romania. You can then again go ahead and mention the tomb again if you want it is in the sources Hittit ( talk) 22:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
My opinion is that the heat needs turned down here! Firstly, you should stop calling one another vandals. Neither of you is vandalizing, you are making content edits that another editor agrees with. That's alright—just be sure not to make them repeatedly! You have come to the talk page to discuss, which is a good thing, but you're talking past one another and accusing of lies and vandalism. It really does make things easier if you will each presume that the other side is acting in good faith. If you can't keep a discussion civil, I'd advise requesting informal or formal mediation to help you with that. You may also wish to consider a request for comment on the article. You don't need page protection, what's in desperate need here is civility. Each of you may have a personal viewpoint, but those do not matter here. All that matters for writing an article is what reliable sources say. If sources disagree, each position should receive due weight and no more. Help each other examine sources, figure some points you can both agree on, then move on to the disputed sections. If you'll talk with each other rather than past each other, you'll find this to go much more easily! Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This article is currently 99,180 bytes! I am going to create a new page
List of Bulgarian Turks. Because this article is already too long, we can at least shorten it by having this list on another page. Can the admins please remove the section Notable Turks in Bulgaria and put the link
List of Bulgarian Turks in the see also section. Thank you.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English (
talk) 17:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Since user
Kostja has been inactive and has failed to produce clear sources citing his claims and justifying his reverts causing the request for protection of this article. I suggest the following edit and returning the article to its original state. I request the removal of the artificial continuation of the unsourced claim under the section Possible settlement of Turks in Bulgaria During the pre-Ottoman Period: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”). Since no agreement has been reached on the exact location of Turkish settlements and due to the fact that almost all sources refer to the area as
Dobruja the sentence should remain in it is original state as it was: '“This migration of Anatolian Turks to Dobruja and their mystic leader Sari Saltik is also described in the works of Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi”.,' the later unsourced continuation of this sentence is not agreed, not support by current added source and no compromise has been achieved to correct this and thus should be removed. The other disputed claims by
Kostja need to be discussed once this part is settled.
Hittit (
talk) 07:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
You did not revert to my suggestion from November 26th, which was: “According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Babadag situated in modern day Romania” So the option would be: “According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Kavarana in Bulgaria and Babadag situated in Northern Dobruja”? As I have stated I have no opposition against Babadag I reject the attempt to imply that settlement was only in Northern Dobruja not to mention trying state Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi as sources for this claim. All sources cover the area of modern day Dobruja, exact locations are not confirmed not to mention Babadag was established by the Ottomans and that one of 7 coffins of Sari Saltik is stated to be there. Is the final version: “This migration of Anatolian Turks to Dobruja and their mystic leader Sari Saltik is also described in the works of Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi.[footnote 21] According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Kavarana in Bulgaria and Babadag situated in Northern Dobruja.” [footnote variety of options e.g., Wittek, King, Eminov and many more mostly mentioning Dobruja incl. Bulgaria and Romania]. Hittit ( talk) 22:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The Bulgarian articles are not meant as as a source that Yankov's theory is not proven. They're meant as an illustration that the prevailing opinion in Bulgaria links the attacks with TNLF. Kostja ( talk) 21:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Does this situation still require mediation? Your case is still active, but the arguments may now be outdated as the situation has evolved considerably since November 23 when the case was filed. ɳoɍɑfʈ Talk! 02:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This article is erraneous. There are no Turks in Bulgaria. There are Turkish-speaking Bulgarians! DemonX ( talk) 21:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
According to this source there are 700,000 Bulgarians of Turkish origin living in Turkey. [2] Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
This should have been the place for Hittit to explain his reverts, but as he hasn't bothered to do so, I'll explain my edits to the article.
1.Dated newspaper articles are considered primary sources in Wikipedia and should not be used for interpretation as has been done in this case
2.Kemal Karpat mentions in his book that many refugees were from the provinces of Edirne and Istanbul and also that the Serbs meant to rid their country from the Muslims.
3.McCarthy's ideology is certainly relevant to this article, especially considering how controversial some of his works have been.
Kostja (
talk) 22:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Regarding your claim that newspaper articles are primary sources and should be removed, I do not agree that you are right. The question is about important overview of the situation from the New York Times correspondent. You can just as well declare a ban an all news media sources in Wikipedia including Internet media. You might consider admin opinion on the subject before removing in the future. Hittit ( talk) 15:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
New York Times citations can never be unreliable source. Murad67 ( talk) 16:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
I would like to have some explanation from the editor who tagged the New York Times article on the attrocities against the Turks during the Russo-Turkish War as unreliable. I will also request an admins opinion on this tag. Hittit ( talk) 13:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
As I saw the sentence in paragraph "Liberation to Communist Rule (1878 to 1945)" starts with "the number of Turks in Bulgaria prior to the Russo-Turkish war of 1878 vary from between a third to being the majority" cited with not linked source and if the source really claims the Turks were majority it is unreliable see WP:RS. That is so beacause at least official census information from the first count after the unification with Eastern Rumelia (in 1887) can take this as nonsense, here the data by religion shows: [1] 2 424 371 Orthodox and 676 215 Muslims among others; I know 9 years passed after the liberation but how the Turks could be a majority in 1878 when they are around 500 000 in 1887? I had the data from 1880 census by religion but I can't currently find it, as I remember it was showing Orthodox 1,400,000, 600,000 Muslims etc. having in mind that Principality of Bulgaria in 1880 was only Moesia and Sofia which has no relation with current Bulgarian territory. I am going to fix the sentence from one fourth to one one third beacause the official information puts this as nonsense. Pensionero (UTC)
Few points, User:Ceco31 has on several occasions made changes and edits, which I have reverted based on the following:
Does anybody know how the population was 750k in 2001 and 580k in 2011? Was this via assimilation, return to Turkey, EU migration or other? Tátótát ( talk) 02:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It's totally wrong even the content of it is about Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.154.27 ( talk) 20:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No prejudice against speedy renomination. I arrived here from WP:ANRFC, but please place a formal WP:RM request next time. ( non-admin closure) sst✈ discuss 17:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but there seems to be a contradiction between the title of this article and the "regions with significant populations" statistics in the infobox, which include figures for Turkey, the UK, Ghent, etc. At the risk of stating the obvious, if Turks in Bulgaria are actually in those places, they're not "in Bulgaria"! Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
As Turkish ethnic minority this population group is regarded as ethnically and culturally separate from the Bulgarian speaking population however these are Bulgarian citizens. Bulgarian Turk would indicate a Bulgarian person that has adopted Turkish as his language and culture (this is not the case with the Turks in Bulgaria). In the same manner you can then have Turkish Bulgarians. Turks, in this case, in Bulgaria are primarily the descendants of a distinctive Turkish population living in the Balkans as of the 14th century...e.g., Turks in Macedonia, Turks in Greece, Turks in Romania etc... Regarding the numbers of Turks that have had to leave Bulgaria, this does not change their heritage and history and BTW most of these still hold valid Bulgarian citizenship thus can be in Bulgaria at any given time. If you have updated sources regarding their numbers I would see it as section than could be updated not deleted. Best Regards Hittit ( talk) 17:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
In light of the above discussion, should this article refer to (and should the article title be) Bulgarian Turks or Turks in Bulgaria? Cordless Larry ( talk) 22:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. With the !votes evenly split, this was closed on the strength of arguments. First, I considered the argument about the article's scope: it doesn't just describe "Turks in Bulgaria", but the diaspora of Turks who came from Bulgaria but now live elsewhere. No weight was given to the argument combining searches of "Turks in Bulgaria" with "Turks of Bulgaria", as the phrases have different senses; "Turks of Bulgaria" could be living anywhere, but "Turks in Bulgaria" could be taken to mean only those in Bulgaria. I also discounted the argument that the proposed title is "too confusing", as this seems arbitrary; the same claim was made against the current title. This said, it's clear that the construction "Turks in Bulgaria" is in use in sources in reference to this ethnic group, and that the construction "Turks in..." is used widely on Wikipedia and elsewhere. However, as Jenks24 and AjaxSmack point out, there is precedent for the format "Bulgarian Turks" and "xxx Turks" elsewhere on Wikipedia as well, and the arguments against this construction were comparatively weak. In summary, I find the arguments for the proposed name to be stronger than those in favor of the status quo. Cúchullain t/ c 15:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Turks in Bulgaria → Bulgarian Turks – This article covers Bulgarian Turks living in a range of countries (Turkey, the Netherlands, Belgium, Northern Cyprus, Austria, Sweden, the UK), not just Bulgaria, so use of "in Bulgaria" in the article name is misleading. The alternative term "Bulgarian Turks" has relatively widespread usage in scholarly sources, as demonstrated by Google Scholar. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 06:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
In the same manner your suggestion makes no sense. The only part of the article that mentions this population living or working in other countries is a table in the infobox. The article it self covers Turks in Bulgaria. Hittit ( talk)
Most meaning 99,9% of the article is about Turks in Bulgaria, you would like to rename the article for 0,1% constituting the infobox. Hittit ( talk) 21:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
When you write an article about an USA citizen you write it in American English, when you write a article about UK citizen you write it in British English. Please respect our choice being called "Turks from Bulgaria" or "Turks in Bulgaria". "Bulgarian Turks" have different meaning and I don't want to be called "Bulgarian Turk". The term "Bulgarian Turk" is an insult! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.84.24 ( talk) 20:43, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 5 7 15:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Bulgarian Turks → Turks of Bulgaria – Turks of Romania, Turks in Greece, Turks in the Republic of Macedonia, Turks in Kosovo, Turks in Serbia, Turks in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turks in Croatia. In Google Scolar Turks in Bulgaria or Turks of Bulgaria has a combined more wider spread than Bulgarian Turks. Turks in Bulgaria are not Bulgarian by any standard, this population is Turkish of origin and the article needs to mirror this in the same way as all articles relating to Turks in different countries. The previous move from Turks in Bulgaria to Bulgarian Turks is clearly contested and not supported by the vote. Hittit ( talk) 22:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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There's been some edit warring over the inclusion of Romani in the languages section of this article's infobox over the past days, so I'm raising this for discussion. I've tried to check what the sources say. At present, three are cited. The first is a Press TV video and I therefore have doubts about reliability, the second is a broken link and the third is quite a long document, so a page number would be helpful to aid verification. Cordless Larry ( talk) 10:37, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Copied from my user talk page. -- T*U ( talk) 08:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Before me, you would ask ask it to someone else, are there already sources maybe they also speak Greek and Albanian along with Romanian? Why is mine, and not hers/ his ? Manaviko ( talk) 16:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Should this be removed or introduced: [7]? Thoughts? 87.227.209.36 ( talk) 21:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
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The heading Turkish Press in Bulgaria 1879–1945 contains a reference. The MOS indicates to attempt to avoid putting references in headings. However, I'm not sure where in the section to move the reference, and it isn't clear what this reference is supporting. RJFJR ( talk) 01:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
So we have: Turks in North Macedonia, Turks in Romania (not Romanian Turks), Turks of Western Thrace, Turks of the Dodecanese islands (not Greek Turks), Turks in Kosovo etc. Even Bulgarians use this formula ( Bulgarians in Romania, Bulgarians in Macedonia) and/or slighly different one, Bulgarians of Asia Minor). Same for minorities in Turkey: Kurds in Turkey, Circassians in Turkey etc.
Then why this page's name is Bulgarian Turks? It should be Turks in Bulgaria.-- Kessarevo ( talk) 19:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
How it is a proper term? If it is, then we must change the above examples to Turkish Circassians or Romanian Bulgarians. But somehow the people who faced brutal assimilation are called "Bulgarian Turks". The term became popular during the Communist regime (in fact I can't find pre-Communist usage of "Bulgarian Turks" in Bulgarian texts but always Turks of Bulgaria or Turks in Bulgaria). I, and probably many others, associate this term with the assimilation campaign (which for some reason is referred in this article as "Rebirth Process" and "The Great Excursion", although many activists such as Zeynep Zaferova said many times that these terms are nothing but insults to all assimilation survivors).-- Kessarevo ( talk) 20:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
-- Kessarevo ( talk) 22:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
As a newcomer to the discussion on the (disputed) current title "Bulgarian Turks" (but certainly no newcomer to such complicated linguistic, ethnic political discussions), and having had a quick look at the history of these discussions (included those on the suggested moves) I would like to start a new discussion on a possible change of title to "Turks of Bulgaria".
For me, it's clear that "Turks in Bulgaria" is not a good alternative because it excludes a significant section of this (sub-)ethnic group currently living outside Bulgaria.
It's true that, in English, as proper nouns are converted to adjectives in such a way that country names like Australia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Germany etc. become Australian, Bulgarian, Turkish, German etc. and the resultant adjective means "belonging to or relating to" that country as well as referring a specific ethnic group which is dominant in that country. As a result, it's common practice for English-speaking people to apply this simple rule to all countries.
However, whereas the words "British", "American" (or perhaps more properly "U.S."), "Canadian", "Australian" etc. wouldn't cause any such discussions, it becomes somewhat problematic (and even illogical!) when the name of a country is based on the name of an ethnic group which is dominant in that country. And it especially becomes unacceptable for members of a minority ethnic group there - especially so if they still have some unresolved problems with the majority/dominant ethnic group.
IMHO, the English-speaking people should better stop using this method of making adjectives out of nouns in such cases in order not to seem insensitive to the plight of such ethnic minorities. ;-)
Unless we are talking about dual citizenship or mixed ethnic identity (e.g. someone's father is from one ethnic group, and the mother is from the other) I don't think it's appropriate to say "German Turks" (instead of "Turks of Germany", or "Turks in Germany" in this specific case), "Turkish Kurds" (instead of "Kurds of Turkey"), "Turkish Armenians" (instead of "Armenians of Turkey"), "Greek Turks" (instead of "Turks of Greece"), "Turkish Greeks" (instead of "Greeks of Turkey"), or "Bulgarian Turks" (instead of "Turks of Bulgaria") unless we accept it as appropriate to call Scottish people "English Scots", considering that outsiders simply call the "United Kingdom" or "Great Britain" as "England" in their own language.
The fact that this has been the norm in English for a long time, and that search results are very much in favor of this pattern should not be used as a pretext to continue this wrong practice. Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 ( talk) 10:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
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It will be a good thing to have reliable source for the claim that the Turks in Bulgaria are a million and even more. Based on the Bulgarian National Census from 2001 the Turks in Bulgaria are 746,664 see here [1] Also, see Turks in Bulgaria, where the number is also the same. Moreover, in Islam in Bulgaria the number of all Muslims in the country is around 968,000, but not every Bulgarian Muslim is from Turkish ethnicity. Therefore, it will be important to have more reliable source on this issue. Thanks.
Stoichkov8 ( talk) 20:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
They are not Bulgarians. They are Bulgarian citizens.
Here is a list of notable Turks in Bulgaria who still do not have an article in English. *Note all these people have an article in either the Turkish or Bulgarian wiki's.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 14:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Hittit, unless I'm very much mistaken page 36 of the above book contains the following excerpt:
"Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified."
Why do you keep reverting this? Kostja ( talk) 18:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
"Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified." “Many converted villages retained their Bulgarian language, folk traditions etc….”
p.203 same book “In the early 1970s pomaks who had become Turkified were required to adopt Slav names, and those who did not were punished!”
Kostja you are very much mistaken since Cramton refers to Bulgarian Muslims known as pomaks. If you go on page 209 you will read where Crampton describes where the Bulgarian government officials introduced the nonsense during the Assimilation Campaing that Turks were not actually Turks but forcibly converted and Turkfied…
In his book “A short history of modern Bulgaria” on page 205 he also goes on the same topic and calls this “idiotic assertions”. Now you claim that Crampton makes “idiotic assertions” in his own book?
With this I believe it is enough to conclude that Crampton does not claim Turks were actually Turkified Bulgarians since he in fact calls this “idiotic”. When it comes to Bulgarian Speaking-Muslims a discussion/argumentation can be made in the article for Pomaks not Turks in Bulgaria.
I will keep reverting all idiotic assertions such as saying:
“Several millitant attacks were committed by an underground Turkish organisation (TNFM, a Turkish National Liberation Movement) in the period between 1984 and 1985, some before the campagn had started (December 1984)). The first attack was on August 30, 1984, when one bomb exploded on Plovdiv's railway station and another one in the Varna airport on a date when Todor Zhivkov was scheduled to visit the two towns.”
Footnote for this put as: ^ a b Улрих Бюксеншютц (2000) Малцинствената политика в България. Политиката на БКП към евреи, роми, помаци и турци (1944-1989), p.105
So we go on page 105 of the pdf and there is nothing saying that “Several millitant attacks were committed by an underground Turkish organisation (TNFM, a Turkish National Liberation Movement)” Not a word about TNFM…BTW there is no reference to TNFM until late (Dec) 1985 (since there was not TNFM priort to the Assimilation Camapign).
“Още на 30 август 1984 г. почти в едно и също време избухват две бомби, едната на гарата в Пловдив, другата - на летището във Варна, и то точно в деня, когато в двата града трябвало да дойде на посещение Тодор Живков. Още тогава у някои западни наблюдатели възниква подозрението, че бомбените атентати може да са свързани с изострянето на асимилационната политика на българското правителство спрямо турското малцинство. Свидетели разказват също, че след тези произшествия мерките за сигурност в цялата страна се засилват, което предизвиква едно почти параноично настроение. След като през март 1985 г. близо до София избухва още една бомба, този път в един препълнен железопътен вагон, при което има много убити жертви, правителството форсира законодателни мерки за борба с тероризма.[10] От разказа на един служител на МВР - участник в разследването, става ясно, че следствието от самото начало се концентрира върху турското население”
If anything Büchsenschütz puts forward his suspicions on who was really behind these acts of terror…you speak Bulgarian so read carefully. Now you want to put Büchsenschütz as a footnote saying the TNFM put bombs between 1984-1985 where in fact Büchsenschütz does not saying anything of that kind. You ask me with all seriousness why I keep reverting? Are you serious?
Hittit ( talk) 17:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Hittit, let me quote the exact statement again:
Of those who did convert, some, especially the landowners, were absorbed into the Muslim world and became entirely Islamicised and Turkified. Many converted villages, on the other hand, retained their Bulgarian language, folk traditions and costumes. The Bulgarian-speaking Muslims became known as pomaks.
This clearly means that Crampton distinguishes two categories of converts: those who retained part of their culture and those who completely assimilated into Turkish culture. Considering that this is confirmed by historical sources (see, for exaple the interview by Midhat Pasha) and that the process of Turkification occurs even today among Pomaks in Greece and Bulgaria, I don't see any other reason except political partisanship to keep reverting this edit. TFNM was later blamed for the attacks. It may be correct to state doubts about the organization's responsibility, but it's not correct to remove all information about it or try to transfer the blame on the Bulgarian state. In any case, you have made other edits of doubtfull neutrality, which need to be reviewed. Kostja ( talk) 13:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
It's clearly stated by Norris that the story of the Sari Saltic has the charackeristics of a folk legend: "Such a migration has an umistakable charackter of a folk epic destan". Also the story of Seljuk wanderings to Dobrudja relies entirely on the account by Yazicioğlu Ali. The other authors also speculate on the origin of the Turks in Northeastern Bulgaria, but they advance very different theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
After many times of vandalism, random use of footnotes, personal opinions accompanied with false sources I requested this article be fully protected.
Kostja Provide Sources for your claims and opinions.
Kostja claims in the section Possible settlement of Turks in Bulgaria During the pre-Ottoman Period the following
1)“though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”. As source Kostja provides Mehmet Fuat Köprülü pp.53 – 54. Source specifically says “a number of Turks went to Dobruja". Source says that the tomb/grave of Sari Saltik is in Babadag. Kostja now goes on and puts a direct lie: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja”. Question is what sources Kostja? Are you lying or implying that since the tomb of Sari Saltik is in Babadag then the Turks immigrated only to Northern Dobruja? Which source says that? Kostja has him self quoted that it was in fact Dobruja and not Northern Dobruja, you had quoted Norris Kostja. 2)Kostja goes on and writes in the same section: “For these reasons it is unclear to which extent this group is connected with today's Turkish inhabitants of the region”. Kostja who is the source behind this sentence? Is that again your own interpretation?
In the section Participation in Bulgarian politics Kostja writes:
1)“MRF might be said to be overreprsented (for example, there were 38 MRF deputies (15.8% of the total in 2009, with the party receiving 610 521 votes - 14.5% of the vote, their highest to date) and only slightly more than 9% ethnic Turks, the party's main electorate).” As a source Kostja puts the 2009 election results. Kostja which source says the MRF is overrepresented? The MRF is a political party which attarcts many voters, if they gain 14,45% what makes you say they are overrepresented? Did they not get 14,45%?, if so why are they overrepresented and what is the sources behind this sentence? Again your own view?
In the section “Militant Attacks” 1)Adding to prof. Yanko Yankov’s claim that the State Security is involved in the terrorist attacks Kostja has added the following sentence: “though this has not been proven and is not a widely accepted theory” as a source he had put Yankov, after I reverted this lie several times he then put two Bulgarian language internet publications that merely describe the acts without taking any stance if the State Security link is proven or accepted. Kostja give the source? Is it Büchsenschütz again? You have any random footnotes you want to use? Hittit ( talk) 23:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
In "Early mystics in Turkish literature" it's mentioned on page 53 that the Turks went with Sari Saltik at the time when Kaykaus supposedly went to Dobrudja (which is disputed) so it was actually the same settlement. About the Pechenegs, Oğuz and Cumans who settled in Bulgaria - they were not Turks but possibly assimilated into Turks. Using the same standart, you could say that the Bulgarians have been in Bulgaria since antiquity as part of the pre-Slavic population was assimilated by the Slavs who settled in Bulgaria. Kostja ( talk) 21:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
In this context you have a source saying this or this is your own research and conclusion?Pls provide a quote of this citation so we can see where does it say BabaSaltuk the last settlement of the Muslims. So if I can summaries all the bellow sources write that the Seljuk Turks of Kay-Kaus settled in Dobruja. Dobruja is mentioned directly as the area of settlement, (some of the sources go further and mentioned Dobruja and seprately included/described the area as both in Bulgaria and Romania):1)Ив. К. Димитровъ, Прѣселение на селджукски турци въ Добруджа около срѣдата на XIII вѣкъ, стр. 32—33 2)P. Wittek, Yazijioghlu 'Ali on the Christian Turks of the Dobruja, pp. 640, 648 3)Mehmet Fuat Köprülü, Gary Leiser, Robert Dankoff; "Early mystics in Turkish literature", New York 2006, pp.53-54 4)Paul R. Brass, “Ethnic groups and the state” p.100 (Bulgarian and Romania mentioned) 5)Brian Glyn Williams, “The Crimean Tatars: the diaspora experience and the forging of a nation”, pp.204 6)John Renard, “Tales of God's Friends: Islamic Hagiography in Translation” pp.136 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned) 7)Charles King, “The Moldovans: Romania, Russia, and the politics of culture”, pp.210 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned) 8)H. T. Norris, “Islam in the Balkans: religion and society between Europe and the Arab world” pp.147 (Bulgaria and Romania mentioned). After listing these scholars I think Kostja there is no room for your personal speculations, indications or suggestions. And that thing about the Tatar and southern point of the Muslims was very amusing lol Hittit ( talk) 07:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I completely agree that Babadag was Turkish however I do not agree that it was the only place where 12 000 families or 30 clans (depending on souces settled). If a sources says Dobruja + a tomb in Babadag in your mind this becomes the only settlement (no source speaks of one settlement but of one tomb, actually theare are several tombs but this is something else). Your only source also said the BabaSaltuk was the southern Nogais Tatar town so talk about confusing locations. You should have read my sources and there are many sources: e.g., Norris writes: “The evidence suggests that it is with coastal Bulgaria and the place called to this Babadag, in the Dobruja of Romania that the saint’s activities ultimately came to have a particular association” Brian Glyn Williams who states that Dobrotic who was the boyar of Dobruja was a descendant of the Seljuk Turks, same with Karpat Or how about Charles King when he writes: Fleeing from the Mongols, they are said to have received from the Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologous in Constantinople in 1261 an area of land along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Romania. Under their sultan Izz al-Din Kay-Kaus they established an independent state there with the present day city of Kavarna as it’s capital I am prepared for a correct version supporting all sources. I propose the removal of the sentence: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”) and replacement with the following: According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Babadag situated in modern day Romania. You can then again go ahead and mention the tomb again if you want it is in the sources Hittit ( talk) 22:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
My opinion is that the heat needs turned down here! Firstly, you should stop calling one another vandals. Neither of you is vandalizing, you are making content edits that another editor agrees with. That's alright—just be sure not to make them repeatedly! You have come to the talk page to discuss, which is a good thing, but you're talking past one another and accusing of lies and vandalism. It really does make things easier if you will each presume that the other side is acting in good faith. If you can't keep a discussion civil, I'd advise requesting informal or formal mediation to help you with that. You may also wish to consider a request for comment on the article. You don't need page protection, what's in desperate need here is civility. Each of you may have a personal viewpoint, but those do not matter here. All that matters for writing an article is what reliable sources say. If sources disagree, each position should receive due weight and no more. Help each other examine sources, figure some points you can both agree on, then move on to the disputed sections. If you'll talk with each other rather than past each other, you'll find this to go much more easily! Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This article is currently 99,180 bytes! I am going to create a new page
List of Bulgarian Turks. Because this article is already too long, we can at least shorten it by having this list on another page. Can the admins please remove the section Notable Turks in Bulgaria and put the link
List of Bulgarian Turks in the see also section. Thank you.
Deutsch-Türkçe-English (
talk) 17:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Since user
Kostja has been inactive and has failed to produce clear sources citing his claims and justifying his reverts causing the request for protection of this article. I suggest the following edit and returning the article to its original state. I request the removal of the artificial continuation of the unsourced claim under the section Possible settlement of Turks in Bulgaria During the pre-Ottoman Period: “though according to these sources they settled in Northern Dobruja (Sari Saltik's tomb is said to be located in Babadag, Northern Dobruja”). Since no agreement has been reached on the exact location of Turkish settlements and due to the fact that almost all sources refer to the area as
Dobruja the sentence should remain in it is original state as it was: '“This migration of Anatolian Turks to Dobruja and their mystic leader Sari Saltik is also described in the works of Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi”.,' the later unsourced continuation of this sentence is not agreed, not support by current added source and no compromise has been achieved to correct this and thus should be removed. The other disputed claims by
Kostja need to be discussed once this part is settled.
Hittit (
talk) 07:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
You did not revert to my suggestion from November 26th, which was: “According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Bulgaria and Babadag situated in modern day Romania” So the option would be: “According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Kavarana in Bulgaria and Babadag situated in Northern Dobruja”? As I have stated I have no opposition against Babadag I reject the attempt to imply that settlement was only in Northern Dobruja not to mention trying state Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi as sources for this claim. All sources cover the area of modern day Dobruja, exact locations are not confirmed not to mention Babadag was established by the Ottomans and that one of 7 coffins of Sari Saltik is stated to be there. Is the final version: “This migration of Anatolian Turks to Dobruja and their mystic leader Sari Saltik is also described in the works of Ibn Battuta and Evliya Çelebi.[footnote 21] According to sources these Seljuk Turks settled in area of Dobruja along the Black Sea coast in the borderland between what is now Kavarana in Bulgaria and Babadag situated in Northern Dobruja.” [footnote variety of options e.g., Wittek, King, Eminov and many more mostly mentioning Dobruja incl. Bulgaria and Romania]. Hittit ( talk) 22:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The Bulgarian articles are not meant as as a source that Yankov's theory is not proven. They're meant as an illustration that the prevailing opinion in Bulgaria links the attacks with TNLF. Kostja ( talk) 21:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Does this situation still require mediation? Your case is still active, but the arguments may now be outdated as the situation has evolved considerably since November 23 when the case was filed. ɳoɍɑfʈ Talk! 02:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This article is erraneous. There are no Turks in Bulgaria. There are Turkish-speaking Bulgarians! DemonX ( talk) 21:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
According to this source there are 700,000 Bulgarians of Turkish origin living in Turkey. [2] Deutsch-Türkçe-English ( talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
This should have been the place for Hittit to explain his reverts, but as he hasn't bothered to do so, I'll explain my edits to the article.
1.Dated newspaper articles are considered primary sources in Wikipedia and should not be used for interpretation as has been done in this case
2.Kemal Karpat mentions in his book that many refugees were from the provinces of Edirne and Istanbul and also that the Serbs meant to rid their country from the Muslims.
3.McCarthy's ideology is certainly relevant to this article, especially considering how controversial some of his works have been.
Kostja (
talk) 22:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Regarding your claim that newspaper articles are primary sources and should be removed, I do not agree that you are right. The question is about important overview of the situation from the New York Times correspondent. You can just as well declare a ban an all news media sources in Wikipedia including Internet media. You might consider admin opinion on the subject before removing in the future. Hittit ( talk) 15:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
New York Times citations can never be unreliable source. Murad67 ( talk) 16:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
I would like to have some explanation from the editor who tagged the New York Times article on the attrocities against the Turks during the Russo-Turkish War as unreliable. I will also request an admins opinion on this tag. Hittit ( talk) 13:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
As I saw the sentence in paragraph "Liberation to Communist Rule (1878 to 1945)" starts with "the number of Turks in Bulgaria prior to the Russo-Turkish war of 1878 vary from between a third to being the majority" cited with not linked source and if the source really claims the Turks were majority it is unreliable see WP:RS. That is so beacause at least official census information from the first count after the unification with Eastern Rumelia (in 1887) can take this as nonsense, here the data by religion shows: [1] 2 424 371 Orthodox and 676 215 Muslims among others; I know 9 years passed after the liberation but how the Turks could be a majority in 1878 when they are around 500 000 in 1887? I had the data from 1880 census by religion but I can't currently find it, as I remember it was showing Orthodox 1,400,000, 600,000 Muslims etc. having in mind that Principality of Bulgaria in 1880 was only Moesia and Sofia which has no relation with current Bulgarian territory. I am going to fix the sentence from one fourth to one one third beacause the official information puts this as nonsense. Pensionero (UTC)
Few points, User:Ceco31 has on several occasions made changes and edits, which I have reverted based on the following:
Does anybody know how the population was 750k in 2001 and 580k in 2011? Was this via assimilation, return to Turkey, EU migration or other? Tátótát ( talk) 02:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It's totally wrong even the content of it is about Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.154.27 ( talk) 20:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No prejudice against speedy renomination. I arrived here from WP:ANRFC, but please place a formal WP:RM request next time. ( non-admin closure) sst✈ discuss 17:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but there seems to be a contradiction between the title of this article and the "regions with significant populations" statistics in the infobox, which include figures for Turkey, the UK, Ghent, etc. At the risk of stating the obvious, if Turks in Bulgaria are actually in those places, they're not "in Bulgaria"! Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
As Turkish ethnic minority this population group is regarded as ethnically and culturally separate from the Bulgarian speaking population however these are Bulgarian citizens. Bulgarian Turk would indicate a Bulgarian person that has adopted Turkish as his language and culture (this is not the case with the Turks in Bulgaria). In the same manner you can then have Turkish Bulgarians. Turks, in this case, in Bulgaria are primarily the descendants of a distinctive Turkish population living in the Balkans as of the 14th century...e.g., Turks in Macedonia, Turks in Greece, Turks in Romania etc... Regarding the numbers of Turks that have had to leave Bulgaria, this does not change their heritage and history and BTW most of these still hold valid Bulgarian citizenship thus can be in Bulgaria at any given time. If you have updated sources regarding their numbers I would see it as section than could be updated not deleted. Best Regards Hittit ( talk) 17:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
In light of the above discussion, should this article refer to (and should the article title be) Bulgarian Turks or Turks in Bulgaria? Cordless Larry ( talk) 22:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. With the !votes evenly split, this was closed on the strength of arguments. First, I considered the argument about the article's scope: it doesn't just describe "Turks in Bulgaria", but the diaspora of Turks who came from Bulgaria but now live elsewhere. No weight was given to the argument combining searches of "Turks in Bulgaria" with "Turks of Bulgaria", as the phrases have different senses; "Turks of Bulgaria" could be living anywhere, but "Turks in Bulgaria" could be taken to mean only those in Bulgaria. I also discounted the argument that the proposed title is "too confusing", as this seems arbitrary; the same claim was made against the current title. This said, it's clear that the construction "Turks in Bulgaria" is in use in sources in reference to this ethnic group, and that the construction "Turks in..." is used widely on Wikipedia and elsewhere. However, as Jenks24 and AjaxSmack point out, there is precedent for the format "Bulgarian Turks" and "xxx Turks" elsewhere on Wikipedia as well, and the arguments against this construction were comparatively weak. In summary, I find the arguments for the proposed name to be stronger than those in favor of the status quo. Cúchullain t/ c 15:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Turks in Bulgaria → Bulgarian Turks – This article covers Bulgarian Turks living in a range of countries (Turkey, the Netherlands, Belgium, Northern Cyprus, Austria, Sweden, the UK), not just Bulgaria, so use of "in Bulgaria" in the article name is misleading. The alternative term "Bulgarian Turks" has relatively widespread usage in scholarly sources, as demonstrated by Google Scholar. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 06:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
In the same manner your suggestion makes no sense. The only part of the article that mentions this population living or working in other countries is a table in the infobox. The article it self covers Turks in Bulgaria. Hittit ( talk)
Most meaning 99,9% of the article is about Turks in Bulgaria, you would like to rename the article for 0,1% constituting the infobox. Hittit ( talk) 21:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
When you write an article about an USA citizen you write it in American English, when you write a article about UK citizen you write it in British English. Please respect our choice being called "Turks from Bulgaria" or "Turks in Bulgaria". "Bulgarian Turks" have different meaning and I don't want to be called "Bulgarian Turk". The term "Bulgarian Turk" is an insult! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.84.24 ( talk) 20:43, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 5 7 15:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Bulgarian Turks → Turks of Bulgaria – Turks of Romania, Turks in Greece, Turks in the Republic of Macedonia, Turks in Kosovo, Turks in Serbia, Turks in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turks in Croatia. In Google Scolar Turks in Bulgaria or Turks of Bulgaria has a combined more wider spread than Bulgarian Turks. Turks in Bulgaria are not Bulgarian by any standard, this population is Turkish of origin and the article needs to mirror this in the same way as all articles relating to Turks in different countries. The previous move from Turks in Bulgaria to Bulgarian Turks is clearly contested and not supported by the vote. Hittit ( talk) 22:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 06:21, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:06, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
There's been some edit warring over the inclusion of Romani in the languages section of this article's infobox over the past days, so I'm raising this for discussion. I've tried to check what the sources say. At present, three are cited. The first is a Press TV video and I therefore have doubts about reliability, the second is a broken link and the third is quite a long document, so a page number would be helpful to aid verification. Cordless Larry ( talk) 10:37, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Copied from my user talk page. -- T*U ( talk) 08:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Before me, you would ask ask it to someone else, are there already sources maybe they also speak Greek and Albanian along with Romanian? Why is mine, and not hers/ his ? Manaviko ( talk) 16:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Should this be removed or introduced: [7]? Thoughts? 87.227.209.36 ( talk) 21:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
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The heading Turkish Press in Bulgaria 1879–1945 contains a reference. The MOS indicates to attempt to avoid putting references in headings. However, I'm not sure where in the section to move the reference, and it isn't clear what this reference is supporting. RJFJR ( talk) 01:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
So we have: Turks in North Macedonia, Turks in Romania (not Romanian Turks), Turks of Western Thrace, Turks of the Dodecanese islands (not Greek Turks), Turks in Kosovo etc. Even Bulgarians use this formula ( Bulgarians in Romania, Bulgarians in Macedonia) and/or slighly different one, Bulgarians of Asia Minor). Same for minorities in Turkey: Kurds in Turkey, Circassians in Turkey etc.
Then why this page's name is Bulgarian Turks? It should be Turks in Bulgaria.-- Kessarevo ( talk) 19:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
How it is a proper term? If it is, then we must change the above examples to Turkish Circassians or Romanian Bulgarians. But somehow the people who faced brutal assimilation are called "Bulgarian Turks". The term became popular during the Communist regime (in fact I can't find pre-Communist usage of "Bulgarian Turks" in Bulgarian texts but always Turks of Bulgaria or Turks in Bulgaria). I, and probably many others, associate this term with the assimilation campaign (which for some reason is referred in this article as "Rebirth Process" and "The Great Excursion", although many activists such as Zeynep Zaferova said many times that these terms are nothing but insults to all assimilation survivors).-- Kessarevo ( talk) 20:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
-- Kessarevo ( talk) 22:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
As a newcomer to the discussion on the (disputed) current title "Bulgarian Turks" (but certainly no newcomer to such complicated linguistic, ethnic political discussions), and having had a quick look at the history of these discussions (included those on the suggested moves) I would like to start a new discussion on a possible change of title to "Turks of Bulgaria".
For me, it's clear that "Turks in Bulgaria" is not a good alternative because it excludes a significant section of this (sub-)ethnic group currently living outside Bulgaria.
It's true that, in English, as proper nouns are converted to adjectives in such a way that country names like Australia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Germany etc. become Australian, Bulgarian, Turkish, German etc. and the resultant adjective means "belonging to or relating to" that country as well as referring a specific ethnic group which is dominant in that country. As a result, it's common practice for English-speaking people to apply this simple rule to all countries.
However, whereas the words "British", "American" (or perhaps more properly "U.S."), "Canadian", "Australian" etc. wouldn't cause any such discussions, it becomes somewhat problematic (and even illogical!) when the name of a country is based on the name of an ethnic group which is dominant in that country. And it especially becomes unacceptable for members of a minority ethnic group there - especially so if they still have some unresolved problems with the majority/dominant ethnic group.
IMHO, the English-speaking people should better stop using this method of making adjectives out of nouns in such cases in order not to seem insensitive to the plight of such ethnic minorities. ;-)
Unless we are talking about dual citizenship or mixed ethnic identity (e.g. someone's father is from one ethnic group, and the mother is from the other) I don't think it's appropriate to say "German Turks" (instead of "Turks of Germany", or "Turks in Germany" in this specific case), "Turkish Kurds" (instead of "Kurds of Turkey"), "Turkish Armenians" (instead of "Armenians of Turkey"), "Greek Turks" (instead of "Turks of Greece"), "Turkish Greeks" (instead of "Greeks of Turkey"), or "Bulgarian Turks" (instead of "Turks of Bulgaria") unless we accept it as appropriate to call Scottish people "English Scots", considering that outsiders simply call the "United Kingdom" or "Great Britain" as "England" in their own language.
The fact that this has been the norm in English for a long time, and that search results are very much in favor of this pattern should not be used as a pretext to continue this wrong practice. Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 ( talk) 10:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)