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Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
The reason that I add the only right beside the CIA, when it comes to classify Turkey as developed is because ONLY the CIA classifies Turkey as developed. By the way the same agency doesnt classify Turkey as an advanced economy. Who knows what the real meaning is. Of course NO other major organization i.e. World Bank, IMF, UN, OECD classifies Turkey as a developed country. Turkey has a GDP per capita of around $9,000 and an medium HDI, around 82nd in the world, behind countries like Albania, Colombia or Uruguay. Also it has a relatively high infant mortality and low life expectancy. In essense I dont think that with those stats a country could be classified as a developed other than what the CIA says. So that is why I stress it. That ONLY the CIA classifies it so.Hope that helps Aee1980 ( talk) 02:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
208.126.113.10 ( talk) 03:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
By the way,CIA developed country list DOES list Turkey as a developed country.
http://www.turkstat.gov.tr/PreHaberBultenleri.do?id=1949
Nominal GDP: $ 658,786,000,000 (2007 official) Nominal GDP per capita: $ 9,333 (2007 official)
The GDP-PPP figures are not announced, but GDP-PPP in total will be between $ 1,001,000,000,000 to $ 1,020,000,000,000 (2007) while GDP-PPP per capita will be around $ 15,000 (2007).
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/8582422.asp?gid=229&sz=3084
http://www.cnnturk.com/EKONOMI/GENEL/haber_detay.asp?PID=40&haberID=443237
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/441040.asp
151.57.183.205 ( talk) 10:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
[1] real emblem ... go web site Turkey Emblem
Every ministry and/or government institution has its own logo design.
The symbol used in Turkish passports is simply the crescent and star. The logo on passport is very important, as almost all countries use their emblems on passports. Crescent and star is also used in national ID cards and exists in different forms in all of governmental logos.
I strongly support the change of current emblem with this one. Kaygtr ( talk) 23:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
According the what articles I read in Wiki about the Turkey and Cyprus, I saw that most of the writings accusing Turks of being violent and killers. This made me almost cry and I really lost my faith anything relayed with west. Because I just saw that they will NEVER accept us and they will keep believing the thinks Armenian, Greek, Kurdish anyone opposite to Turkey says. We are trying for nothing because they never accept others. For example Nazi movements at 40's and now, movements against Afro-American people now and before(I saw that they are calling Katrina hurricane survivors refugee,these are American citizen for god's sake!) Indians, Algeria , India(Below Afganistan one) .... and many other stuations. If there is any western people thinks that we can still be united, please tell me how it will be. [email deleted to protect poster from spam] . I only see more confilicts and I just want peace. But not irregular one, because the one without justice creates more. And your system works on freedom, and ours on justice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.211.192 ( talk) 22:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I would translate "Helal Baskan" as "well done president!". An informal expression of appreciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.231.18.33 ( talk) 10:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
If we want to insist on IMF data as reference, I think we do not need other countries' data save for rankings.
My suggestions for references:
rankings: either the way it is now (so no reference, but a wikilink to the relevant wikipedia article, which is well sourced. I think this is not Wikipedia self-referencing), or that bulk list of all countries' data, which is but not sorted on the IMF webpage.
2007 figures are not estimates, 2008 ones are estimates, we can have 2008 data only (just change sy=2007 to sy=2008 in the html links above) 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 14:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I hope not having the subject descriptor is not a problem. Regarding the Gini coefficients, etc:
Another thing about the infobox is that 3rd footnote seems to be wrong. The population data does not seem to based on 2005 figures. I can understand having footnote 2 (where is the first one?) and footnote 5 in the infobox, but I think the reference for Gini and HDI indices should be listed at the end of the article. So let's have (at most) those two footnotes there, and also let's not use numbers for labeling, let's label them as A and B, or † and ‡ (dagger), or something like that. 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 05:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe we have some Turkey related featured pictures on Commons, we should use them whenever they would give about the same information. Most pictures we have here seem to be somewhat featured picture material though. Probably I am not the one with the best of judgments when we talk about the "featured picture material"ness of a picture.
Please check this diff. I checked the source, searched for "Alevi" and "Alevite" there, no hits. Apparently Yazdanism is a Kurdish thing, and most Kurds are Sunni, even if we include Zazas, and most Alevis are not Kurdish as far as I know (ratio might be around 90%). Alawis are different from Alevis. That might be the source of confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 22:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
"This low figure is mainly due to prevailing feudal attitudes against women in the Arab- and Kurdish-inhabited southeastern provinces of the country.["
This is not a NPOV. To say this is to suggest the ethnic Turks living in south-eastern Turkey do not share the same views as the Arabs and Kurds, which simply isn't true. This part of the country is largely undeveloped and unindustrialised - most residents still live in villages and work in agriculture. Healthcare and Education are underprovided and in some areas non-existant compared to primarily Turkish, western parts of the country. As far as views of female education in these provinces go, the Kurdish, Turkish and Arab views are homogenised. There is no distinction, therefore no such distinction should be insinuated. The line essentially attempts to wash the Turks hands of any similar views and blames the Kurdish and Arabic populations for the Turkish Governments ignorance of and, if you will, hesitation in developing the South-East.
This attempts to imply Turkish cultural supremacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.166.60 ( talk • contribs)
As a matter of fact, I did check the reference. The BBC is not a divine infallible source. The line clearly directs any blame for uneducated and backward views of women away from Turks, and turns it into a Kurdish and Arabic problem. How is that fair?
How is it Kurdish supremacy to ask for collective blame? I don't recall asking for the blame to be centred on Turks, that would be wrong - as would centering the blame on any specific ethnic minority in Turkey, such as the Kurds and Arabs, which is what has been done. Turkey is a country which has collectively voted in a socially conservative, Islamist government. Yet, when "cultural conservatism" becomes a problem, suddenly it's a minority issue. Wtf?
Simply saying the southeastern part of the country is unmodernised and backward would suggest Ataturk's great Turkish Republic put a foot wrong and didn't do its job, God forbid anybody ever suggest that. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zannyvespertine (
talk •
contribs)
19:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Lets get something straight. I'm an Armenian-Australian, and on no occasion have I declared the southeastern provinces of Turkey as being "predominantly Kurdish", true as that may be. Your assumption that I'm a Kurdish supremacist of some sort simply because I concerned myself with a Kurdish-related issue is offensive. I'm sorry to inform you that those actions which you listed occur in every province of Turkey. They are not particular to Kurds or Arabs - they occur among ethnic Turks as well - how much clearer can I make this? That line in the Demographics section is still biased, pro-Turkish, and anti-minority. I've been to Turkey, my parents lived there for most of their lives. I've encountered ethnically Turkish women in Aegean Turkey who cannot read, have never stepped on a beach in their lives and were arranged to marry from birth. Are you telling me this is a Kurdish and Arabic problem? This is outrageous. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zannyvespertine (
talk •
contribs)
06:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad we came to agree. And yes yes, I'm not trying to argue over Turkey's internal conflicts. Both sides hold a lot of responsibility for the atrocities that've taken place. But as you and I now concur, attributing illiteracy to ethnic groups for perceived cultural traits which, in fact, are not specific to those cultures is wrong.
Thank you :] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zannyvespertine ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the Turkish rate of 88% considered "low" when countries like Malta and Portugal which are usually considered "developed" have rates of 92% and 93% (not mjuch higher) ? By the way, rates for people below 40 is well into the 90s. It's the older folk who drag the figure down. Real demographic problems faced by Turkey would be the rapid urbanization of the country as a whole and de-population of the east because of migration to the much more prosperous west. These are very much discussed in Turkey. Why isnt this discussed here instead ?
I still would like to know what the "definition" of "ethnic Turk" is, so I can figure out who I am! Name Turk was used for the people of Anatolia and its rulers long before the Republic. World called them/us "Turks" for a thousand years. It was not some political invention of 20th century. What else should the people of Turkey be called? Ex-Ottomans, Anatolians, Levantinettes?-- Murat ( talk) 04:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 estimate is the estimate for what will happen by the *end* of 2008, not the beginning, you don't give an end of year estimate in May. It has yet to occur, we are in May, not December 31. As for your Greece, Bulgaria comparison, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is not an argument, and they are not featured articles, they are not examples to go by. Featured articles like Australia, Germany, India use the 2007 figures. With regards to your "fat" ref claim, that is an inherently inane argument, it makes no difference what years it covers as it is a url link, the information is all in the link, however a new query can easily be created.-- Miyokan ( talk) 13:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I will repeat it again, WP:Other Stuff Exists is not an argument, I am not concerned with those articles, their figures can easily be changed. It is clear that English is not your native language so I will explain it again. The IMF published its estimates for what it thinks countries GDP reached in 2007. No one is saying they are precise, that is why it says "2007 estimate". The 2008 estimate is the estimate for what will happen by the *end* of 2008, not the beginning, you don't give an end of year estimate in May. It has yet to occur, we are in May, not December 31.-- Miyokan ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It states in the article that "Neither the Prime Minister nor the Ministers have to be members of the parliament", while this is true for ministers, prime ministers must be members of the parliment according to Turkish Constituion article 109. http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/Anayasa.htm 88.235.44.208 ( talk) 21:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC) Ugras
You are correct. It is the president who doesn't have to be a member of the parliament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cansilgure ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference being made in the article about the promblem of Cyprus in which Turkey invated Cyprus in 1974 and occupies 38.2% of the country territory. Turkey refuses to remove its troops and return the land to its rightfull owners. The name Turkish Republic of Northen Cyprus which refers in the article in the section military should be removed. There is no such state and no country regognise it as a legal entity except Turkey. It should be refer to as the area that Turkey is iligally occuping after the invasion of 1974.
and27sav —Preceding unsigned comment added by And27sav ( talk • contribs) 10:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually it is not about brainwashing brother. I'm from the lucky group which has access to education and high social life in Turkey. I just wanted to mention that neither side is innocent and even if the whole world disagrees it, there is a de facto state there and we can't solve this problem by cheap word tricks here. I love Cyprus and I can handle the "heaviness" of asking for a visa rather than entering the country just by showing my Turkish ID card and "losing" Cyprus won't change another single thing in my life. Ok, maybe I would lose a "valuable source" in my main field, International Relations, but for peace, I can accept it. By the way, we can talk Israel issue deeper if you want but you may want to look at the period before and after the Johnson letter and Arab support to Makarios government in order to understand the phases of the Middle East policy of Turkey. Deliogul ( talk) 09:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Please change it back, every reasonalbloe persons notices this is seriously biased, it looks like turkey belongs ONLY to europe, but no please!, at least make it in the middle of asia and europe. Sine Bot out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.99.95 ( talk) 18:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
You're wrong! Turkey is a European country and it belongs to Europe and you have to know that Israel, Armenia and Cyprus are members of the UEFA too. (They are geographically Asian...) -- Izmir lee ( talk) 08:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
OK folks, our aim should be the creation of a stable article. Stable articles make for reliable encyclopedias. Now, last time I checked, Turkey has not actually relocated since it was founded. If we can't agree where Turkey is, this makes us look fairly foolish to all the other articles about countries with an established consensus on static geographical location. I'm not terribly fired up about any one image, but the current one (beige land mass with Turkey colored red, and center in the image) seems fine to be. The country is centered, so we can see all the wonderful countries of the earth that surround Turkey. Next thing you know we'll get an image viewing Turkey from the point of view of Iceland, or French Guyana (politically a part of Europe!). If and when the EU and Turkey get together, rest assured that Wikipedia will be their last possible point of consultation. Hiberniantears ( talk) 15:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In light of the fact that this has turned into an edit war with the map over the past 24 hours, I have increased the protection of Turkey for 1 day in the hopes that people can come here and talk it through a little bit. We have two camps (maybe more, but lets keep it simple). One is in favor of a politicaly symbolic map that shows Turkey oriented to Europe. The other camp puts Turkey in the middle to show where it is in relation to surrounding countries. Personally, I like a version of the map that centers on Turkey, but more than anything, I'd really just like to see a consistent version of the map remain for more than a day or two. If there is a consensus on any particular version, then we should just support it and leave it be... unless the consensus is to put up a map of Nevada or something. Hiberniantears ( talk) 12:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
firstly,i have to say that Turks fell European since the Turkish Council is founded by Kemal Ataturk.Turks have Caucasian race and Turkey is a Muslem country(officially Secular).I changed former map but realy i got bored.If all people agreed to Turkey's location map(except Turks),i DO NOT care anymore if Turkey will join to Eu or not.You are seperating us from Europe.Things are going to bad,Turks have high self-esteem.I am realy bored this debate.OK Turkey is Middle Eastern even Far Eastern either AFRICAN or anything else.Middle east stands for Arapic region(named by Britishs)
" Honestly, enough is enough with the EUROPE! " (as you said).Big Turkish Union MUST BE FOUND against to Europe(especially France) anymore.We know Eu is founded because of prevent Europe from America and make Europe stronger.Therefore,Turkish union or Big Turkiye must be found —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Aegeanfighter (
talk •
contribs)
20:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is both European and Asian. Sigh. How fucking pointless this is. Get a life already. - 60.54.24.238 ( talk) 11:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I would just like to say that I think the section should start with the number of Muslims in Turkey and that it is the religion of the people etc. Then secularism should be mentioned after that, this is because the religion section is based in the demographics section, therefore it mainly concerns on statistics and demographics of religion. And I don't see why it is a big deal of having Islam in Turkey as being in Further information on the section, it doesn't mean Islam is the state religion of Turkey by just putting it there, but it will provide the readers of the article with more information of religion in Turkey, and that is what the Islam in Turkey shows, it has all historical events and information needed, so I believe it should be stated there, it is one of the main aspects or concepts of religion in Turkey, so it clearly makes sense. By just putting it that there doesn't make me an Islamist (as someone has mentioned) - ridiculous! This is Wikipedia, where it is an encyclopedia providing information for the people, just because Turkey is a Secular state, it shouldn't be prevented to the way information is used on the article. Please people. Common sense! Thankyou! Peace Out. Moshin ( talk) 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
151.57.203.146 ( talk) 20:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I just add I am certainly not a sock puppet of some Islamist editor! Thanks and good day. Mulacho ( talk) 22:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
GDP 2007 GDP nominal = $ 482 billion GDP nominal per capita = $ 6.774 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.100.82.225 ( talk) 10:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
alright, it appears that the map which is currently displayed at the time of this post reflects consensus. It is centered geographically to reflect the countries surrounding Turkey; European, Caucasian, African, Middle Eastern, Asian, and Sub-Continent... Everyone is involved. Protection is reduced, so let us all now focus on building the article, and not fighting over the map. Happy editing. Hiberniantears ( talk) 03:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The page of Turkey says :"Neither the Prime Minister nor the Ministers have to be members of the parliament" (footnote 33).
This is not true. Pursuant to Turkish Constitution Article 109:
"The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the President of the Republic from among the members of the Turkish Grand National Assembly"
The English version of the Constitution of The Republic of Turkey can be found on:
http://www.anayasa.gov.tr/images/loaded/pdf_dosyalari/THE_CONSTITUTION_OF_THE_REPUBLIC_OF_TURKEY.pdf
I hope you change this wrong information as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssurenoglu ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I created a new map from scratch, from a completely different angle.
How's this one?
Berlinerzeitung ( talk) 06:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
de
Hello Adlerschloss, you write about political purposes and abuses of maps, so tell me why is Europe separated from Asia even they are the same continent in actually? I think the reason is a more cultural case or let's say a result of self centered character of European culture.
As far as I have read in this MAP discussion, I cannot see a regualr solution, this discussion is more like dicussing "chicken comes from the egg or egg comes from chicken", this is nonsense, there wont be a solution for this map thing, because the discussion on its basics is very irrevelant to the main topic, talking on a map is a very superficial way of dicussing issues ( a medivial inquisitors' style of discussing). I will give you extreme examples to you now; "Ottoman was a European country when it was at its most expanded territorial state" is that right or wrong? Or How can we consider Danmark European eventhough GREENLAND is that far from Europe (Greenland is the largest territorial area in Europe, larger than Danmark itself, so percentage that you guys have been using does not make sense anymore). That's what the discussion indicates; however this is not the fact. The problem here is cultural and this problem does not solve anything please try to focus on solutions not the vicious circle if you want solution ofcourse. (
cantikadam (
talk)
09:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC))
Can somebody please archive the talk page on the Turkish people article, i would do it but i dont know how too, and it seems that nobody else is willing to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.36.67 ( talk) 16:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I know that there are severe edit wars on this issue, but there is a separate (hotly disputed) article on the Turkish military action. This present article also includes a brief justification of the event. Whether it is correct or not, it is a non-neutral, non-encyclopedic value judgment that should not be in this article, and I am taking it out. APW ( talk) 16:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that someone uploaded a new map over the consensus centered one yesterday, just when I thought this issue had finally died down. I will try to get to uploading the old map again soon, but if someone else can correct this in the meantime, that would be appreciated. Also, due to persistent vandalism, it may be necessary to protect the image in some way if that is possible. Adlerschloß ( talk) 19:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's analyze what's going on in the Religion section of the article:
User:M Miah wants only Religion in Turkey and Islam in Turkey to remain as "main articles" on top, while removing other main articles which he personally finds distasteful such as Christianity in Turkey, Judaism in Turkey and especially Secularism in Turkey. He actually makes no secret (in his user page boxes) that he despises Kemalism and secularism. I have also read numerous messages from User:M Miah (including the ones that he just deleted in this page, check out the History of Talk:Turkey) in which he openly expresses his "bias" on this issue.
I can only tell him a few things:
In my opinion, his acts amount to "religious fanatism" and "intolerance" towards "others". Gönülçelen ( talk) 19:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any reasonable person not think Turkey is an almost entirely Muslim nation? I don't think speaking to other religious communities in Turkey in a Wikipedia article is going to change the world's opinion of that. If anything, the other religions noted have important history that took place in what is now Turkey, so the links are clearly relevant. The two sides of this are speaking past each other. One is trying to discuss religion among the people who live inside the borders of Turkey. The other side is trying to discuss the political concept of secularism, and how the state applies it in running Turkish government.
The problems seem to arise in this article when one side tries to stamp out the other. Clearly, there are at least two distinct Turkeys inside the borders of the Republic of Turkey, and they don't get along very well, and their inability to mutually define the identity of their country is reflected in this article, which can't settle on one stable description of Turkey for more than 15 minutes. Wikipedia is not a political propaganda site, nor will the quality of this article impact the ability of Turkey to enter the EU, or for the AK Party to lead a stable government. The very fact that people can't even settle on the color of the map demonstrates what a joke this article is. A 12 year old school kid in Oklahoma who pulls up the Turkey article is probably looking up the bird, and has no idea where the country of Turkey is, let alone what level of political or economic development the country is at. Needless to say, we now have millions of English speaking students who think Turkey is a magical place floating sometimes in Europe, and other times in Asia. If you can't come to consensus on where or what your country is, then this is probably a hopeless exercise.
There is room for both sides of this to exist in the article in a NPOV fashion. Turkey has a lot of Muslims, as well as a political system that centers on secularism; both need to be described without placing any value on them. Turkey has a lot of territory that is geographically in Asia. We can agree on this. Most of Turkey's area is, in fact, in Asia, and we can agree on this as well. However, the little itty bitty piece of Turkey that is geographically in Europe is, in fact, bigger than a number of European countries, and it is geographically pressed up against the rest of Turkey, and thus Turkey is very much a European and an Asian country, because it extends across both landmasses as one contiguous unit. Politically, Turkey is a part of European political institutions in a way that places like Tunisia are not. This is a fact. Turkey is politically integrated with Europe. Inside Turkey there is a cultural struggle reflecting these dual identities. This is a fact. Inside Europe there is also a cultural struggle reflecting a debate over what qualifies someone as European (geographic, cultural, political, or some combination of the three). This is a fact. An NPOV article would describe all of these facts without assessing their value. Will that happen? Doubt it, but I think it would be in the best spirit of what Wikipedia is supposed to be about if you guys could spend the next week working together to create a neutral, informative article. Hiberniantears ( talk) 15:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Protecting and defending the rights (and voice) of ethnically and religiously diverse groups in Turkey is important for me. I was born to a Muslim Turkish family, but I have half-American and half-French cousins who are Christian. My closest friend (who was likewise born to a Muslim Turkish family) recently married with a Turkish Armenian (and Christian) lady. Many of my best friends are Turkish Jews, actually I live in a building in Istanbul with lots of Jewish families. I personally find the growing discrimination and prejudice against non-Muslims in Turkey, mostly by radical Islamic groups, disgusting.
Secularism and Kemalism are also important for me, because I am perfectly aware of the fact that, without Atatürk's reforms, a country like Turkey (with no oil and natural gas) could have never become the largest Muslim economy and industrial producer in the world (the only Muslim country in any "Developed Country" list), with the best developed democracy and civil rights in any Muslim-majority country, despite all its flaws (by West European and American standards). Atatürk wanted to "compress" 500 years of European cultural, mental and scientific evolution into 15 years of his presidency (similar to the reforms that Peter the Great made in Russia after returning from his long trip to Western Europe), but of course, there was no way that these reforms (which took Europe 500 years to absorb) could have been absorbed by the relatively lower-educated Turkish populace (less than 10% of Turks could read and write when Atatürk became the President) in just 15 years without any problems; especially given the fact that Islam is an extremely conservative religion which doesn't tolerate "reform" and "change" too much. Gönülçelen ( talk) 17:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. What you have been discussing on is just a waste of time. It is not important if Turkey is geographically European or not (Even so what is Europea, it is ASIA if you look the point properly geographical). The problem is cultural that is all. However in today's world we should consider the cultural differencies on a positive way and we should more concentrate on working together to develop better economies and affairs. That is what going on through the whole world !! U.S.A does not care if China is christian or whatever, just job what they consider. If Europeans keep on thinking as they think in 1200s the development of Europe and surrounding countries will be less than those who are in a development race (Brazil, China, India etc.) so please do not stuck in really unrevelant issues, get to the point. ( cantikadam ( talk) 08:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC))
One has to keep in mind that talking about religion is sort of a taboo in many places around Turkey. Maybe one can say that God does not exist while tasting an expensive coffee next to Bosporus at Bebek neighborhood but you can't do that if you are in Anatolia. You have to say that you believe in Islam in order to be accepted to the social and economic community. Deliogul ( talk) 11:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Just to add that a centred map is the consensus on this article and that am altered map showing a skewed picture is not acceptable. Pureditor 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello Turkey.I'm Paul Auttonberry.I am from America.Your country is very big.I will visit you tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.66.45.106 ( talk) 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
The reason that I add the only right beside the CIA, when it comes to classify Turkey as developed is because ONLY the CIA classifies Turkey as developed. By the way the same agency doesnt classify Turkey as an advanced economy. Who knows what the real meaning is. Of course NO other major organization i.e. World Bank, IMF, UN, OECD classifies Turkey as a developed country. Turkey has a GDP per capita of around $9,000 and an medium HDI, around 82nd in the world, behind countries like Albania, Colombia or Uruguay. Also it has a relatively high infant mortality and low life expectancy. In essense I dont think that with those stats a country could be classified as a developed other than what the CIA says. So that is why I stress it. That ONLY the CIA classifies it so.Hope that helps Aee1980 ( talk) 02:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
208.126.113.10 ( talk) 03:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
By the way,CIA developed country list DOES list Turkey as a developed country.
http://www.turkstat.gov.tr/PreHaberBultenleri.do?id=1949
Nominal GDP: $ 658,786,000,000 (2007 official) Nominal GDP per capita: $ 9,333 (2007 official)
The GDP-PPP figures are not announced, but GDP-PPP in total will be between $ 1,001,000,000,000 to $ 1,020,000,000,000 (2007) while GDP-PPP per capita will be around $ 15,000 (2007).
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/8582422.asp?gid=229&sz=3084
http://www.cnnturk.com/EKONOMI/GENEL/haber_detay.asp?PID=40&haberID=443237
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/441040.asp
151.57.183.205 ( talk) 10:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
[1] real emblem ... go web site Turkey Emblem
Every ministry and/or government institution has its own logo design.
The symbol used in Turkish passports is simply the crescent and star. The logo on passport is very important, as almost all countries use their emblems on passports. Crescent and star is also used in national ID cards and exists in different forms in all of governmental logos.
I strongly support the change of current emblem with this one. Kaygtr ( talk) 23:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
According the what articles I read in Wiki about the Turkey and Cyprus, I saw that most of the writings accusing Turks of being violent and killers. This made me almost cry and I really lost my faith anything relayed with west. Because I just saw that they will NEVER accept us and they will keep believing the thinks Armenian, Greek, Kurdish anyone opposite to Turkey says. We are trying for nothing because they never accept others. For example Nazi movements at 40's and now, movements against Afro-American people now and before(I saw that they are calling Katrina hurricane survivors refugee,these are American citizen for god's sake!) Indians, Algeria , India(Below Afganistan one) .... and many other stuations. If there is any western people thinks that we can still be united, please tell me how it will be. [email deleted to protect poster from spam] . I only see more confilicts and I just want peace. But not irregular one, because the one without justice creates more. And your system works on freedom, and ours on justice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.211.192 ( talk) 22:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I would translate "Helal Baskan" as "well done president!". An informal expression of appreciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.231.18.33 ( talk) 10:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
If we want to insist on IMF data as reference, I think we do not need other countries' data save for rankings.
My suggestions for references:
rankings: either the way it is now (so no reference, but a wikilink to the relevant wikipedia article, which is well sourced. I think this is not Wikipedia self-referencing), or that bulk list of all countries' data, which is but not sorted on the IMF webpage.
2007 figures are not estimates, 2008 ones are estimates, we can have 2008 data only (just change sy=2007 to sy=2008 in the html links above) 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 14:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I hope not having the subject descriptor is not a problem. Regarding the Gini coefficients, etc:
Another thing about the infobox is that 3rd footnote seems to be wrong. The population data does not seem to based on 2005 figures. I can understand having footnote 2 (where is the first one?) and footnote 5 in the infobox, but I think the reference for Gini and HDI indices should be listed at the end of the article. So let's have (at most) those two footnotes there, and also let's not use numbers for labeling, let's label them as A and B, or † and ‡ (dagger), or something like that. 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 05:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe we have some Turkey related featured pictures on Commons, we should use them whenever they would give about the same information. Most pictures we have here seem to be somewhat featured picture material though. Probably I am not the one with the best of judgments when we talk about the "featured picture material"ness of a picture.
Please check this diff. I checked the source, searched for "Alevi" and "Alevite" there, no hits. Apparently Yazdanism is a Kurdish thing, and most Kurds are Sunni, even if we include Zazas, and most Alevis are not Kurdish as far as I know (ratio might be around 90%). Alawis are different from Alevis. That might be the source of confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.202.45 ( talk) 22:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
"This low figure is mainly due to prevailing feudal attitudes against women in the Arab- and Kurdish-inhabited southeastern provinces of the country.["
This is not a NPOV. To say this is to suggest the ethnic Turks living in south-eastern Turkey do not share the same views as the Arabs and Kurds, which simply isn't true. This part of the country is largely undeveloped and unindustrialised - most residents still live in villages and work in agriculture. Healthcare and Education are underprovided and in some areas non-existant compared to primarily Turkish, western parts of the country. As far as views of female education in these provinces go, the Kurdish, Turkish and Arab views are homogenised. There is no distinction, therefore no such distinction should be insinuated. The line essentially attempts to wash the Turks hands of any similar views and blames the Kurdish and Arabic populations for the Turkish Governments ignorance of and, if you will, hesitation in developing the South-East.
This attempts to imply Turkish cultural supremacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.166.60 ( talk • contribs)
As a matter of fact, I did check the reference. The BBC is not a divine infallible source. The line clearly directs any blame for uneducated and backward views of women away from Turks, and turns it into a Kurdish and Arabic problem. How is that fair?
How is it Kurdish supremacy to ask for collective blame? I don't recall asking for the blame to be centred on Turks, that would be wrong - as would centering the blame on any specific ethnic minority in Turkey, such as the Kurds and Arabs, which is what has been done. Turkey is a country which has collectively voted in a socially conservative, Islamist government. Yet, when "cultural conservatism" becomes a problem, suddenly it's a minority issue. Wtf?
Simply saying the southeastern part of the country is unmodernised and backward would suggest Ataturk's great Turkish Republic put a foot wrong and didn't do its job, God forbid anybody ever suggest that. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zannyvespertine (
talk •
contribs)
19:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Lets get something straight. I'm an Armenian-Australian, and on no occasion have I declared the southeastern provinces of Turkey as being "predominantly Kurdish", true as that may be. Your assumption that I'm a Kurdish supremacist of some sort simply because I concerned myself with a Kurdish-related issue is offensive. I'm sorry to inform you that those actions which you listed occur in every province of Turkey. They are not particular to Kurds or Arabs - they occur among ethnic Turks as well - how much clearer can I make this? That line in the Demographics section is still biased, pro-Turkish, and anti-minority. I've been to Turkey, my parents lived there for most of their lives. I've encountered ethnically Turkish women in Aegean Turkey who cannot read, have never stepped on a beach in their lives and were arranged to marry from birth. Are you telling me this is a Kurdish and Arabic problem? This is outrageous. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zannyvespertine (
talk •
contribs)
06:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad we came to agree. And yes yes, I'm not trying to argue over Turkey's internal conflicts. Both sides hold a lot of responsibility for the atrocities that've taken place. But as you and I now concur, attributing illiteracy to ethnic groups for perceived cultural traits which, in fact, are not specific to those cultures is wrong.
Thank you :] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zannyvespertine ( talk • contribs) 08:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the Turkish rate of 88% considered "low" when countries like Malta and Portugal which are usually considered "developed" have rates of 92% and 93% (not mjuch higher) ? By the way, rates for people below 40 is well into the 90s. It's the older folk who drag the figure down. Real demographic problems faced by Turkey would be the rapid urbanization of the country as a whole and de-population of the east because of migration to the much more prosperous west. These are very much discussed in Turkey. Why isnt this discussed here instead ?
I still would like to know what the "definition" of "ethnic Turk" is, so I can figure out who I am! Name Turk was used for the people of Anatolia and its rulers long before the Republic. World called them/us "Turks" for a thousand years. It was not some political invention of 20th century. What else should the people of Turkey be called? Ex-Ottomans, Anatolians, Levantinettes?-- Murat ( talk) 04:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 estimate is the estimate for what will happen by the *end* of 2008, not the beginning, you don't give an end of year estimate in May. It has yet to occur, we are in May, not December 31. As for your Greece, Bulgaria comparison, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is not an argument, and they are not featured articles, they are not examples to go by. Featured articles like Australia, Germany, India use the 2007 figures. With regards to your "fat" ref claim, that is an inherently inane argument, it makes no difference what years it covers as it is a url link, the information is all in the link, however a new query can easily be created.-- Miyokan ( talk) 13:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I will repeat it again, WP:Other Stuff Exists is not an argument, I am not concerned with those articles, their figures can easily be changed. It is clear that English is not your native language so I will explain it again. The IMF published its estimates for what it thinks countries GDP reached in 2007. No one is saying they are precise, that is why it says "2007 estimate". The 2008 estimate is the estimate for what will happen by the *end* of 2008, not the beginning, you don't give an end of year estimate in May. It has yet to occur, we are in May, not December 31.-- Miyokan ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It states in the article that "Neither the Prime Minister nor the Ministers have to be members of the parliament", while this is true for ministers, prime ministers must be members of the parliment according to Turkish Constituion article 109. http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/Anayasa.htm 88.235.44.208 ( talk) 21:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC) Ugras
You are correct. It is the president who doesn't have to be a member of the parliament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cansilgure ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference being made in the article about the promblem of Cyprus in which Turkey invated Cyprus in 1974 and occupies 38.2% of the country territory. Turkey refuses to remove its troops and return the land to its rightfull owners. The name Turkish Republic of Northen Cyprus which refers in the article in the section military should be removed. There is no such state and no country regognise it as a legal entity except Turkey. It should be refer to as the area that Turkey is iligally occuping after the invasion of 1974.
and27sav —Preceding unsigned comment added by And27sav ( talk • contribs) 10:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually it is not about brainwashing brother. I'm from the lucky group which has access to education and high social life in Turkey. I just wanted to mention that neither side is innocent and even if the whole world disagrees it, there is a de facto state there and we can't solve this problem by cheap word tricks here. I love Cyprus and I can handle the "heaviness" of asking for a visa rather than entering the country just by showing my Turkish ID card and "losing" Cyprus won't change another single thing in my life. Ok, maybe I would lose a "valuable source" in my main field, International Relations, but for peace, I can accept it. By the way, we can talk Israel issue deeper if you want but you may want to look at the period before and after the Johnson letter and Arab support to Makarios government in order to understand the phases of the Middle East policy of Turkey. Deliogul ( talk) 09:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Please change it back, every reasonalbloe persons notices this is seriously biased, it looks like turkey belongs ONLY to europe, but no please!, at least make it in the middle of asia and europe. Sine Bot out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.99.95 ( talk) 18:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
You're wrong! Turkey is a European country and it belongs to Europe and you have to know that Israel, Armenia and Cyprus are members of the UEFA too. (They are geographically Asian...) -- Izmir lee ( talk) 08:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
OK folks, our aim should be the creation of a stable article. Stable articles make for reliable encyclopedias. Now, last time I checked, Turkey has not actually relocated since it was founded. If we can't agree where Turkey is, this makes us look fairly foolish to all the other articles about countries with an established consensus on static geographical location. I'm not terribly fired up about any one image, but the current one (beige land mass with Turkey colored red, and center in the image) seems fine to be. The country is centered, so we can see all the wonderful countries of the earth that surround Turkey. Next thing you know we'll get an image viewing Turkey from the point of view of Iceland, or French Guyana (politically a part of Europe!). If and when the EU and Turkey get together, rest assured that Wikipedia will be their last possible point of consultation. Hiberniantears ( talk) 15:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In light of the fact that this has turned into an edit war with the map over the past 24 hours, I have increased the protection of Turkey for 1 day in the hopes that people can come here and talk it through a little bit. We have two camps (maybe more, but lets keep it simple). One is in favor of a politicaly symbolic map that shows Turkey oriented to Europe. The other camp puts Turkey in the middle to show where it is in relation to surrounding countries. Personally, I like a version of the map that centers on Turkey, but more than anything, I'd really just like to see a consistent version of the map remain for more than a day or two. If there is a consensus on any particular version, then we should just support it and leave it be... unless the consensus is to put up a map of Nevada or something. Hiberniantears ( talk) 12:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
firstly,i have to say that Turks fell European since the Turkish Council is founded by Kemal Ataturk.Turks have Caucasian race and Turkey is a Muslem country(officially Secular).I changed former map but realy i got bored.If all people agreed to Turkey's location map(except Turks),i DO NOT care anymore if Turkey will join to Eu or not.You are seperating us from Europe.Things are going to bad,Turks have high self-esteem.I am realy bored this debate.OK Turkey is Middle Eastern even Far Eastern either AFRICAN or anything else.Middle east stands for Arapic region(named by Britishs)
" Honestly, enough is enough with the EUROPE! " (as you said).Big Turkish Union MUST BE FOUND against to Europe(especially France) anymore.We know Eu is founded because of prevent Europe from America and make Europe stronger.Therefore,Turkish union or Big Turkiye must be found —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Aegeanfighter (
talk •
contribs)
20:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is both European and Asian. Sigh. How fucking pointless this is. Get a life already. - 60.54.24.238 ( talk) 11:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I would just like to say that I think the section should start with the number of Muslims in Turkey and that it is the religion of the people etc. Then secularism should be mentioned after that, this is because the religion section is based in the demographics section, therefore it mainly concerns on statistics and demographics of religion. And I don't see why it is a big deal of having Islam in Turkey as being in Further information on the section, it doesn't mean Islam is the state religion of Turkey by just putting it there, but it will provide the readers of the article with more information of religion in Turkey, and that is what the Islam in Turkey shows, it has all historical events and information needed, so I believe it should be stated there, it is one of the main aspects or concepts of religion in Turkey, so it clearly makes sense. By just putting it that there doesn't make me an Islamist (as someone has mentioned) - ridiculous! This is Wikipedia, where it is an encyclopedia providing information for the people, just because Turkey is a Secular state, it shouldn't be prevented to the way information is used on the article. Please people. Common sense! Thankyou! Peace Out. Moshin ( talk) 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
151.57.203.146 ( talk) 20:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I just add I am certainly not a sock puppet of some Islamist editor! Thanks and good day. Mulacho ( talk) 22:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
GDP 2007 GDP nominal = $ 482 billion GDP nominal per capita = $ 6.774 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.100.82.225 ( talk) 10:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
alright, it appears that the map which is currently displayed at the time of this post reflects consensus. It is centered geographically to reflect the countries surrounding Turkey; European, Caucasian, African, Middle Eastern, Asian, and Sub-Continent... Everyone is involved. Protection is reduced, so let us all now focus on building the article, and not fighting over the map. Happy editing. Hiberniantears ( talk) 03:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The page of Turkey says :"Neither the Prime Minister nor the Ministers have to be members of the parliament" (footnote 33).
This is not true. Pursuant to Turkish Constitution Article 109:
"The Prime Minister shall be appointed by the President of the Republic from among the members of the Turkish Grand National Assembly"
The English version of the Constitution of The Republic of Turkey can be found on:
http://www.anayasa.gov.tr/images/loaded/pdf_dosyalari/THE_CONSTITUTION_OF_THE_REPUBLIC_OF_TURKEY.pdf
I hope you change this wrong information as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssurenoglu ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I created a new map from scratch, from a completely different angle.
How's this one?
Berlinerzeitung ( talk) 06:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
de
Hello Adlerschloss, you write about political purposes and abuses of maps, so tell me why is Europe separated from Asia even they are the same continent in actually? I think the reason is a more cultural case or let's say a result of self centered character of European culture.
As far as I have read in this MAP discussion, I cannot see a regualr solution, this discussion is more like dicussing "chicken comes from the egg or egg comes from chicken", this is nonsense, there wont be a solution for this map thing, because the discussion on its basics is very irrevelant to the main topic, talking on a map is a very superficial way of dicussing issues ( a medivial inquisitors' style of discussing). I will give you extreme examples to you now; "Ottoman was a European country when it was at its most expanded territorial state" is that right or wrong? Or How can we consider Danmark European eventhough GREENLAND is that far from Europe (Greenland is the largest territorial area in Europe, larger than Danmark itself, so percentage that you guys have been using does not make sense anymore). That's what the discussion indicates; however this is not the fact. The problem here is cultural and this problem does not solve anything please try to focus on solutions not the vicious circle if you want solution ofcourse. (
cantikadam (
talk)
09:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC))
Can somebody please archive the talk page on the Turkish people article, i would do it but i dont know how too, and it seems that nobody else is willing to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.36.67 ( talk) 16:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I know that there are severe edit wars on this issue, but there is a separate (hotly disputed) article on the Turkish military action. This present article also includes a brief justification of the event. Whether it is correct or not, it is a non-neutral, non-encyclopedic value judgment that should not be in this article, and I am taking it out. APW ( talk) 16:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that someone uploaded a new map over the consensus centered one yesterday, just when I thought this issue had finally died down. I will try to get to uploading the old map again soon, but if someone else can correct this in the meantime, that would be appreciated. Also, due to persistent vandalism, it may be necessary to protect the image in some way if that is possible. Adlerschloß ( talk) 19:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's analyze what's going on in the Religion section of the article:
User:M Miah wants only Religion in Turkey and Islam in Turkey to remain as "main articles" on top, while removing other main articles which he personally finds distasteful such as Christianity in Turkey, Judaism in Turkey and especially Secularism in Turkey. He actually makes no secret (in his user page boxes) that he despises Kemalism and secularism. I have also read numerous messages from User:M Miah (including the ones that he just deleted in this page, check out the History of Talk:Turkey) in which he openly expresses his "bias" on this issue.
I can only tell him a few things:
In my opinion, his acts amount to "religious fanatism" and "intolerance" towards "others". Gönülçelen ( talk) 19:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any reasonable person not think Turkey is an almost entirely Muslim nation? I don't think speaking to other religious communities in Turkey in a Wikipedia article is going to change the world's opinion of that. If anything, the other religions noted have important history that took place in what is now Turkey, so the links are clearly relevant. The two sides of this are speaking past each other. One is trying to discuss religion among the people who live inside the borders of Turkey. The other side is trying to discuss the political concept of secularism, and how the state applies it in running Turkish government.
The problems seem to arise in this article when one side tries to stamp out the other. Clearly, there are at least two distinct Turkeys inside the borders of the Republic of Turkey, and they don't get along very well, and their inability to mutually define the identity of their country is reflected in this article, which can't settle on one stable description of Turkey for more than 15 minutes. Wikipedia is not a political propaganda site, nor will the quality of this article impact the ability of Turkey to enter the EU, or for the AK Party to lead a stable government. The very fact that people can't even settle on the color of the map demonstrates what a joke this article is. A 12 year old school kid in Oklahoma who pulls up the Turkey article is probably looking up the bird, and has no idea where the country of Turkey is, let alone what level of political or economic development the country is at. Needless to say, we now have millions of English speaking students who think Turkey is a magical place floating sometimes in Europe, and other times in Asia. If you can't come to consensus on where or what your country is, then this is probably a hopeless exercise.
There is room for both sides of this to exist in the article in a NPOV fashion. Turkey has a lot of Muslims, as well as a political system that centers on secularism; both need to be described without placing any value on them. Turkey has a lot of territory that is geographically in Asia. We can agree on this. Most of Turkey's area is, in fact, in Asia, and we can agree on this as well. However, the little itty bitty piece of Turkey that is geographically in Europe is, in fact, bigger than a number of European countries, and it is geographically pressed up against the rest of Turkey, and thus Turkey is very much a European and an Asian country, because it extends across both landmasses as one contiguous unit. Politically, Turkey is a part of European political institutions in a way that places like Tunisia are not. This is a fact. Turkey is politically integrated with Europe. Inside Turkey there is a cultural struggle reflecting these dual identities. This is a fact. Inside Europe there is also a cultural struggle reflecting a debate over what qualifies someone as European (geographic, cultural, political, or some combination of the three). This is a fact. An NPOV article would describe all of these facts without assessing their value. Will that happen? Doubt it, but I think it would be in the best spirit of what Wikipedia is supposed to be about if you guys could spend the next week working together to create a neutral, informative article. Hiberniantears ( talk) 15:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Protecting and defending the rights (and voice) of ethnically and religiously diverse groups in Turkey is important for me. I was born to a Muslim Turkish family, but I have half-American and half-French cousins who are Christian. My closest friend (who was likewise born to a Muslim Turkish family) recently married with a Turkish Armenian (and Christian) lady. Many of my best friends are Turkish Jews, actually I live in a building in Istanbul with lots of Jewish families. I personally find the growing discrimination and prejudice against non-Muslims in Turkey, mostly by radical Islamic groups, disgusting.
Secularism and Kemalism are also important for me, because I am perfectly aware of the fact that, without Atatürk's reforms, a country like Turkey (with no oil and natural gas) could have never become the largest Muslim economy and industrial producer in the world (the only Muslim country in any "Developed Country" list), with the best developed democracy and civil rights in any Muslim-majority country, despite all its flaws (by West European and American standards). Atatürk wanted to "compress" 500 years of European cultural, mental and scientific evolution into 15 years of his presidency (similar to the reforms that Peter the Great made in Russia after returning from his long trip to Western Europe), but of course, there was no way that these reforms (which took Europe 500 years to absorb) could have been absorbed by the relatively lower-educated Turkish populace (less than 10% of Turks could read and write when Atatürk became the President) in just 15 years without any problems; especially given the fact that Islam is an extremely conservative religion which doesn't tolerate "reform" and "change" too much. Gönülçelen ( talk) 17:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. What you have been discussing on is just a waste of time. It is not important if Turkey is geographically European or not (Even so what is Europea, it is ASIA if you look the point properly geographical). The problem is cultural that is all. However in today's world we should consider the cultural differencies on a positive way and we should more concentrate on working together to develop better economies and affairs. That is what going on through the whole world !! U.S.A does not care if China is christian or whatever, just job what they consider. If Europeans keep on thinking as they think in 1200s the development of Europe and surrounding countries will be less than those who are in a development race (Brazil, China, India etc.) so please do not stuck in really unrevelant issues, get to the point. ( cantikadam ( talk) 08:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC))
One has to keep in mind that talking about religion is sort of a taboo in many places around Turkey. Maybe one can say that God does not exist while tasting an expensive coffee next to Bosporus at Bebek neighborhood but you can't do that if you are in Anatolia. You have to say that you believe in Islam in order to be accepted to the social and economic community. Deliogul ( talk) 11:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Just to add that a centred map is the consensus on this article and that am altered map showing a skewed picture is not acceptable. Pureditor 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello Turkey.I'm Paul Auttonberry.I am from America.Your country is very big.I will visit you tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.66.45.106 ( talk) 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)