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there is not misrepresentation- There is a t/p discussion, where you can argue. TrangaBellam ( talk) 10:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article (
|
visual edit |
history) ·
Article talk (
|
history) ·
Watch
there is not misrepresentation- There is a t/p discussion, where you can argue. TrangaBellam ( talk) 10:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.