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I am not sure you can compare a
P-3 Orion to a
Tu-142...
the more appropriate comparison and in fact comparable role is for
Il-38 May.
Though Tu-142 has antisubmarine role as primary mission, it has secondary Maritime strike bomber role (using any of the various ASCM) ...
Swraj (
talk)
16:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I agree with you. Furthermore, the comparable aircraft section under the Nimrod and P-3 Orion articles do not include the Tu-142, yet this article does.
Wolcott (
talk)
14:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)reply
Limitation as an anti-submarine weapon
I have read (unfortunately, I cannot remember where) that one of the limitations of the Tu-142 as an anti-submarine weapons system is that submarines can hear them coming. Does anyone have any documentation to confirm this?
Sincerely, SamBlob (
talk) 15:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC) perhaps it it the TU-95 page- tips of the propellers of aircraft- and it is perhaps nosiest in the world !
Wfoj3 (
talk)
20:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Comments
Performed review/copyedit to end of Design and development for now. Looks pretty good to me, some comments/queries:
"Tupolev initially studied the Tu-95PLO" -- "studied" doesn't sound right for what I assume was only a paper concept at this time; do you mean "designed" or "proposed"?
"It was to carry 9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) with a maximum loiter time of 10.5 hours..." -- Should we clarify as "9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) of ordnance" or "a9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) payload"?
"On 28 February 1963, the
Council of Ministers ... issued a directive to Tupolev requiring his bureau to develop a long-range ASW aircraft" -- how does this differ from "The
Soviet government consequently ordered
Tupolev and other aircraft
design bureaux to study possible dedicated
anti-submarine warfare (ASW) designs" at the top of the paragraph? If there were two orders/directives, need some explanation of how they differed, otherwise this looks a bit confusing.
I've standardised to past tense in Design and development up to the last sentence or two describing current models/operators; think it flows better that way.
Thanks. I'd have preferred it if you'd make the comments at my talk page, instead of here :P, but you're the boss now. As for your third point, the sources didn't say that the Council issue the first directive, but the (vague) "Soviet government". Anyway, I think more emphasis should be put on the second directive, which resulted in the Tu-142.
Sp33dyphil"
Adastra"00:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Well I think it's easier to keep the comments with the article... ;-) As to the order/directive thing, perhaps it can be improved by a tweak to the wording, clarifying that the first order required Tupolev to study designs, and second ordered him to go ahead and develop one. Done so and will come back and go over the rest of the article in due course... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
00:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Further comments
Is there a particular reason you italicise some marks of the Tu-142, put others in inverted commas, and leave others alone, e.g. "Tu-142MZ" vs. Tu-142ll vs. (among others) Tu-95LL?
I'm not sure if there's a MoS guideline on this, but I italicise words that come after designated because: the words are being talk about; and they look correct. Do you want them all unitalicised, or what?
Heh, I can live with the italicising where it's consistent with your reasoning above, however I'd switch the example(s) with inverted commas to italics. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
23:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)reply
"...the ASW equipment and armament were removed to allow the carriage off the engines under the belly" -- Don't get the second half of this passage...
Ah, well first of all we had "off the engine", not "of the engine", so that confused things, though I see you've corrected that now... ;-) Perhaps it'd be even clearer if you said "allow carriage of an engine test bed under the belly" (or "allow an engine test bed to be carried under the belly"). Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
Precedence of Tu-95PLO
The second paragraph says that Tu-142 "preceded the stillborn Tu-95PLO project, Tupolev's first attempt at modifying the Tu-95 for naval use". The sentence is contradictory. If the -142 preceded the -95PLO, then -142 was the first attempt. Later on, however, the text shows that -95PLO was indeed stillborn, that it was the first attempt and that the -142 was a subsequent design. The next paragraph shows what innovations the -142 had, but it never explicits that this new design was named -142. Instead, the reader is supposed to assume so, because later on the name -142 is used anew with no regards to the transition. I will now edit both pieces, not out of any knowledge I have, but only so that the text has internal consistency, whether right or wrong.
SrAtoz (
talk)
01:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)reply
This is awkward: his bureau to go ahead with development of a long-range ASW aircraft How about: "his bureau to develop a long-range ASW aircraft"? This is confusing: This consisted of the Nashatyr-Nefrit (Ammonia/Jade) ASW complex, which included the Zarechye sonar system. Besides the RGB-1A and RGB-2 buoys of the Berkut, the Tu-142MZ was compatible with the RGB-16 and RGB-26 buoys; when working with the ASW complex, these buoys cut sonobuoy usage by 1.5 times. I know what an ASW complex is, but ordinary readers won't have a clue. Also rewrite the sentences. What does the wire function as? but had provisions for a long trailing wire enabling messages to be relayed And rewrite the sentence to get rid of enabling. "that enabled" or somesuch. All flights of Russia's
Pacific Fleet were suspended pending an investigation into the crash. Wouldn't this be better phrased as "All flights of aircraft belonging to the Pacific Fleet were suspended..." I've made a lot of copyedit type changes to the article. Go through them and see if they meet with your approval.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd suggest you add place of publication and fix capitalization issues in the bibliography. And if you're thinking about A-class, I'd suggest that you get a hold of either Gordon's Tupolev OKB history or his 2009 volume on the Tu-95/142 before you submit it.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
All of the parts with problematic phrasing have been re-worded; awaiting Phil's OK on the other copyediting changes, and any changes to the bibliography. --
Demiurge1000 (
talk)
07:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
"...resulting in the Tu-142MZ, the ultimate long-range Tu-142 with highly sophisticated combat
avionics and large
payload", "It was speculated that the change to the idle plant was to find employment to the workers there", and "Even as the Tu-142MK entered service, its Korshun-K STS was already becoming obsolete". Do you have references? For the first one, I can't find expansion of its "ultimate"ness anywhere else in the article. (text decoration not found in article)
Oh, it was the ultimate version because it was the most-capable and best variant of the Tu-142. I used the word because it means "final" and "maximum", not because it's the best. Geez, TV ads through around words like these too much, making them very POV. BTW, the speculated section is mentioned in Tupolev Tu-95/-142 "Bear": Russia's intercontinental-range heavy bomber.
Need caliber and type of guns in the tail turret as well the armament payload in main body and infobox. Link bogey, fairing. What are acoustic-band sonobuoys and trigger devices? Were the Tu-142MRs newly built or converted from existing Tu-142s? What's the deal with the Tu-142MRT? It should be listed under variants as well.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I think basically they took away some of the guns the Tu-95 had, but kept the rest, right? So I think they are
Nudelman-Rikhter NR-23. Anything at all that the sources say about things carried as payload (excluding sonobuoys, which are already mentioned at length) would be great, but doesn't matter if not. --
Demiurge1000 (
talk)
07:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree, the armament needs to be covered in a moderate amount of detail for an aircraft that carried an armament of any sort. Gun type and caliber are required here and a general statement about its armament payload (x amount/weight of bombs/torpedoes/missiles/whatever) is necessary.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
13:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm not putting it on hold because I think it shouldn't take more than a day or two to resolve the issues, but as this is my first GA review, a more experienced editor may completely disagree with my assessment of the article. Good luck! →Στc.05:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I contacted Sp33dyphil on IRC, who replied "the books don't talk about guns". As such, there may simply not be much more information on them. Thus, the coverage as currently seen in the article is adequate, and, with no other major issues, this is an excellent addition to Wikipedia's good articles. →Στc.06:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
This article is within the scope of the
Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of
open tasks and
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full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
I am not sure you can compare a
P-3 Orion to a
Tu-142...
the more appropriate comparison and in fact comparable role is for
Il-38 May.
Though Tu-142 has antisubmarine role as primary mission, it has secondary Maritime strike bomber role (using any of the various ASCM) ...
Swraj (
talk)
16:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)reply
I agree with you. Furthermore, the comparable aircraft section under the Nimrod and P-3 Orion articles do not include the Tu-142, yet this article does.
Wolcott (
talk)
14:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)reply
Limitation as an anti-submarine weapon
I have read (unfortunately, I cannot remember where) that one of the limitations of the Tu-142 as an anti-submarine weapons system is that submarines can hear them coming. Does anyone have any documentation to confirm this?
Sincerely, SamBlob (
talk) 15:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC) perhaps it it the TU-95 page- tips of the propellers of aircraft- and it is perhaps nosiest in the world !
Wfoj3 (
talk)
20:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Comments
Performed review/copyedit to end of Design and development for now. Looks pretty good to me, some comments/queries:
"Tupolev initially studied the Tu-95PLO" -- "studied" doesn't sound right for what I assume was only a paper concept at this time; do you mean "designed" or "proposed"?
"It was to carry 9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) with a maximum loiter time of 10.5 hours..." -- Should we clarify as "9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) of ordnance" or "a9,000 kg (19,841 lbs) payload"?
"On 28 February 1963, the
Council of Ministers ... issued a directive to Tupolev requiring his bureau to develop a long-range ASW aircraft" -- how does this differ from "The
Soviet government consequently ordered
Tupolev and other aircraft
design bureaux to study possible dedicated
anti-submarine warfare (ASW) designs" at the top of the paragraph? If there were two orders/directives, need some explanation of how they differed, otherwise this looks a bit confusing.
I've standardised to past tense in Design and development up to the last sentence or two describing current models/operators; think it flows better that way.
Thanks. I'd have preferred it if you'd make the comments at my talk page, instead of here :P, but you're the boss now. As for your third point, the sources didn't say that the Council issue the first directive, but the (vague) "Soviet government". Anyway, I think more emphasis should be put on the second directive, which resulted in the Tu-142.
Sp33dyphil"
Adastra"00:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Well I think it's easier to keep the comments with the article... ;-) As to the order/directive thing, perhaps it can be improved by a tweak to the wording, clarifying that the first order required Tupolev to study designs, and second ordered him to go ahead and develop one. Done so and will come back and go over the rest of the article in due course... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
00:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Further comments
Is there a particular reason you italicise some marks of the Tu-142, put others in inverted commas, and leave others alone, e.g. "Tu-142MZ" vs. Tu-142ll vs. (among others) Tu-95LL?
I'm not sure if there's a MoS guideline on this, but I italicise words that come after designated because: the words are being talk about; and they look correct. Do you want them all unitalicised, or what?
Heh, I can live with the italicising where it's consistent with your reasoning above, however I'd switch the example(s) with inverted commas to italics. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
23:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)reply
"...the ASW equipment and armament were removed to allow the carriage off the engines under the belly" -- Don't get the second half of this passage...
Ah, well first of all we had "off the engine", not "of the engine", so that confused things, though I see you've corrected that now... ;-) Perhaps it'd be even clearer if you said "allow carriage of an engine test bed under the belly" (or "allow an engine test bed to be carried under the belly"). Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
Precedence of Tu-95PLO
The second paragraph says that Tu-142 "preceded the stillborn Tu-95PLO project, Tupolev's first attempt at modifying the Tu-95 for naval use". The sentence is contradictory. If the -142 preceded the -95PLO, then -142 was the first attempt. Later on, however, the text shows that -95PLO was indeed stillborn, that it was the first attempt and that the -142 was a subsequent design. The next paragraph shows what innovations the -142 had, but it never explicits that this new design was named -142. Instead, the reader is supposed to assume so, because later on the name -142 is used anew with no regards to the transition. I will now edit both pieces, not out of any knowledge I have, but only so that the text has internal consistency, whether right or wrong.
SrAtoz (
talk)
01:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)reply
This is awkward: his bureau to go ahead with development of a long-range ASW aircraft How about: "his bureau to develop a long-range ASW aircraft"? This is confusing: This consisted of the Nashatyr-Nefrit (Ammonia/Jade) ASW complex, which included the Zarechye sonar system. Besides the RGB-1A and RGB-2 buoys of the Berkut, the Tu-142MZ was compatible with the RGB-16 and RGB-26 buoys; when working with the ASW complex, these buoys cut sonobuoy usage by 1.5 times. I know what an ASW complex is, but ordinary readers won't have a clue. Also rewrite the sentences. What does the wire function as? but had provisions for a long trailing wire enabling messages to be relayed And rewrite the sentence to get rid of enabling. "that enabled" or somesuch. All flights of Russia's
Pacific Fleet were suspended pending an investigation into the crash. Wouldn't this be better phrased as "All flights of aircraft belonging to the Pacific Fleet were suspended..." I've made a lot of copyedit type changes to the article. Go through them and see if they meet with your approval.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I'd suggest you add place of publication and fix capitalization issues in the bibliography. And if you're thinking about A-class, I'd suggest that you get a hold of either Gordon's Tupolev OKB history or his 2009 volume on the Tu-95/142 before you submit it.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
All of the parts with problematic phrasing have been re-worded; awaiting Phil's OK on the other copyediting changes, and any changes to the bibliography. --
Demiurge1000 (
talk)
07:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
"...resulting in the Tu-142MZ, the ultimate long-range Tu-142 with highly sophisticated combat
avionics and large
payload", "It was speculated that the change to the idle plant was to find employment to the workers there", and "Even as the Tu-142MK entered service, its Korshun-K STS was already becoming obsolete". Do you have references? For the first one, I can't find expansion of its "ultimate"ness anywhere else in the article. (text decoration not found in article)
Oh, it was the ultimate version because it was the most-capable and best variant of the Tu-142. I used the word because it means "final" and "maximum", not because it's the best. Geez, TV ads through around words like these too much, making them very POV. BTW, the speculated section is mentioned in Tupolev Tu-95/-142 "Bear": Russia's intercontinental-range heavy bomber.
Need caliber and type of guns in the tail turret as well the armament payload in main body and infobox. Link bogey, fairing. What are acoustic-band sonobuoys and trigger devices? Were the Tu-142MRs newly built or converted from existing Tu-142s? What's the deal with the Tu-142MRT? It should be listed under variants as well.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
03:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I think basically they took away some of the guns the Tu-95 had, but kept the rest, right? So I think they are
Nudelman-Rikhter NR-23. Anything at all that the sources say about things carried as payload (excluding sonobuoys, which are already mentioned at length) would be great, but doesn't matter if not. --
Demiurge1000 (
talk)
07:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I disagree, the armament needs to be covered in a moderate amount of detail for an aircraft that carried an armament of any sort. Gun type and caliber are required here and a general statement about its armament payload (x amount/weight of bombs/torpedoes/missiles/whatever) is necessary.--
Sturmvogel 66 (
talk)
13:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I'm not putting it on hold because I think it shouldn't take more than a day or two to resolve the issues, but as this is my first GA review, a more experienced editor may completely disagree with my assessment of the article. Good luck! →Στc.05:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I contacted Sp33dyphil on IRC, who replied "the books don't talk about guns". As such, there may simply not be much more information on them. Thus, the coverage as currently seen in the article is adequate, and, with no other major issues, this is an excellent addition to Wikipedia's good articles. →Στc.06:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply