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@ JGHowes: Thank you for this edit. My bad for not digging a bit deeper and finding that myself. Now, a general question about WP:CITELEAD (others are welcomed to provide opinions as well). There are quite a number of claims made in the article, but most of these seem to be things capable of being properly supported by cited content that comes later. So, perhaps, the citations (partly three for one statement) are not really needed in the lead. Unsupported statements in the lead that do show up in the body of the article probably should be removed per MOS:LEAD anyway, but the supported stuff probably doesn't need to be cited twice. If the wording of the lead is a bit MOS:PEACOCKy in some cases, then perhaps that can be tweaked so that lead is a bit more NPOV. Any opinions on this? -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether it's common for articles about horse racing or race horses to use Arabic numerals when describing things as lengths? Generally, MOS:NUMERAL seems to advise us to spell out numbers from 1 to 10 out when it comes to article content, but perhaps this is a type of exception that is made for sports results like mentioned in MOS:NUMNOTES. This is mainly related to the content of Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the September 7 date from the infobox because I couldn't find it in the cited source. However, I could only see part of the cited LA Times because I only have a free subscription for newspapers.com. If the rest of the cited article mentions her full date of birth, then that info probably can be re-added. In that case, it should also be add to the MOS:FIRST sentence as well. I left the year of her birth as "1941", but the only thing that the source really says is that Testa was 27 years old at the time. For an article published on March 1, 1969, that would seem to be she was born between March 2, 1941 and February 28, 1942; so, it might be more correct to for the article to born 1941 or 1942 or something similar unless the exact year can be pinned down. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:05, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Is there really a need for the stand-alone subsection Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage? There is, after all, a stand-alone article about Dark Mirage where content specific to the horse can be found. For sure, content relevant to both Testa and her riding of Dark Mirage is relevant (i.e. the last paragraph), but the beginning of the section seems to be just about the horse itself. Perhaps the subsection should be renamed to "1969 Santa Margarita Invitational Handicap" since that seems to be what most relevant to Testa and Dark Mirage with the rest of the content removed. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Dark Mirage’s 3 year-old campaign began in defeat, in March at Aqueduct, where she finished fourth, 7 1/2 lengths from the winner under jockey Ron Turcotte. It would be the final defeat of her career.
After this race, it seemed as though Dark Mirage had gone to bed a girl and awoken a woman. Something had clicked and the click might well have come in the form of a 25 year-old brunette called Tuesdee Testa, who was the wife of King’s stable manager, Al.
At a time when (male) jockeys boycotted races where female jockeys were riding and the presence of a woman in the post parade drew hisses and worse, Everett Kelly had nothing but praise for Tuesdee “I’ve had a few riders, and I’ve never had one as good as she is at the beginning. She has better hands and knows more about handling horses than Sammy Boulmetis did when he was starting out…she can do it all.“ (NOTE: Samuel L. Boulmetis Sr. , born in 1927, was a skillful jockey who was inducted into the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in 1973. Of all the horses Boulmetis rode, the best was the great mare Tosmah, whom he guided to no less than 7 major stakes victories against fillies and colts.)
@ JGHowes and Atsme: Are either of you able to see this The New Yorker article. I can only see the free blurb, but perhaps one of you can see the full article. It seems like it has a lot of potential as a RS and it can be used even if it requires a subscription per WP:PAYWALL. It would have to be used as a RS though since websites requiring a subscription or registration aren't generally allowed to be used as an external link per WP:ELNO.
I found this and this from the The New York Times; they too require a subscription and I can't see them. There is also this and this from the Los Angeles Times. The first one requires a subscription, but the last one is free (it only mentions Testa once by name though) There is probably someone at WP:RX who has access to NYT and LAT archives who might be able to access them and assess them if neither of you can.
I also found this from Time and also this kind of interesting piece (a bit bloggish though) about her inspiring mothers to name their daughters "Tuesdee". -- Marchjuly ( talk) 14:11, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Atsme and JGHowes: Does it matter whether Testa is referred to as a female jockey or a woman jockey? For example, I think for professional sports "woman" is more commonly used, but I don't know remember how it might have been back in the 1960s. It seems as if some of the things I'm reading about Testa refer to her as a woman jockey whereas others use female. Should we just go with whatever the cited such says even if it introduces some inconsistency in the article? -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tuesdee Testa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@ JGHowes: Thank you for this edit. My bad for not digging a bit deeper and finding that myself. Now, a general question about WP:CITELEAD (others are welcomed to provide opinions as well). There are quite a number of claims made in the article, but most of these seem to be things capable of being properly supported by cited content that comes later. So, perhaps, the citations (partly three for one statement) are not really needed in the lead. Unsupported statements in the lead that do show up in the body of the article probably should be removed per MOS:LEAD anyway, but the supported stuff probably doesn't need to be cited twice. If the wording of the lead is a bit MOS:PEACOCKy in some cases, then perhaps that can be tweaked so that lead is a bit more NPOV. Any opinions on this? -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether it's common for articles about horse racing or race horses to use Arabic numerals when describing things as lengths? Generally, MOS:NUMERAL seems to advise us to spell out numbers from 1 to 10 out when it comes to article content, but perhaps this is a type of exception that is made for sports results like mentioned in MOS:NUMNOTES. This is mainly related to the content of Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 01:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the September 7 date from the infobox because I couldn't find it in the cited source. However, I could only see part of the cited LA Times because I only have a free subscription for newspapers.com. If the rest of the cited article mentions her full date of birth, then that info probably can be re-added. In that case, it should also be add to the MOS:FIRST sentence as well. I left the year of her birth as "1941", but the only thing that the source really says is that Testa was 27 years old at the time. For an article published on March 1, 1969, that would seem to be she was born between March 2, 1941 and February 28, 1942; so, it might be more correct to for the article to born 1941 or 1942 or something similar unless the exact year can be pinned down. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:05, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Is there really a need for the stand-alone subsection Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage? There is, after all, a stand-alone article about Dark Mirage where content specific to the horse can be found. For sure, content relevant to both Testa and her riding of Dark Mirage is relevant (i.e. the last paragraph), but the beginning of the section seems to be just about the horse itself. Perhaps the subsection should be renamed to "1969 Santa Margarita Invitational Handicap" since that seems to be what most relevant to Testa and Dark Mirage with the rest of the content removed. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Dark Mirage’s 3 year-old campaign began in defeat, in March at Aqueduct, where she finished fourth, 7 1/2 lengths from the winner under jockey Ron Turcotte. It would be the final defeat of her career.
After this race, it seemed as though Dark Mirage had gone to bed a girl and awoken a woman. Something had clicked and the click might well have come in the form of a 25 year-old brunette called Tuesdee Testa, who was the wife of King’s stable manager, Al.
At a time when (male) jockeys boycotted races where female jockeys were riding and the presence of a woman in the post parade drew hisses and worse, Everett Kelly had nothing but praise for Tuesdee “I’ve had a few riders, and I’ve never had one as good as she is at the beginning. She has better hands and knows more about handling horses than Sammy Boulmetis did when he was starting out…she can do it all.“ (NOTE: Samuel L. Boulmetis Sr. , born in 1927, was a skillful jockey who was inducted into the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in 1973. Of all the horses Boulmetis rode, the best was the great mare Tosmah, whom he guided to no less than 7 major stakes victories against fillies and colts.)
@ JGHowes and Atsme: Are either of you able to see this The New Yorker article. I can only see the free blurb, but perhaps one of you can see the full article. It seems like it has a lot of potential as a RS and it can be used even if it requires a subscription per WP:PAYWALL. It would have to be used as a RS though since websites requiring a subscription or registration aren't generally allowed to be used as an external link per WP:ELNO.
I found this and this from the The New York Times; they too require a subscription and I can't see them. There is also this and this from the Los Angeles Times. The first one requires a subscription, but the last one is free (it only mentions Testa once by name though) There is probably someone at WP:RX who has access to NYT and LAT archives who might be able to access them and assess them if neither of you can.
I also found this from Time and also this kind of interesting piece (a bit bloggish though) about her inspiring mothers to name their daughters "Tuesdee". -- Marchjuly ( talk) 14:11, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Atsme and JGHowes: Does it matter whether Testa is referred to as a female jockey or a woman jockey? For example, I think for professional sports "woman" is more commonly used, but I don't know remember how it might have been back in the 1960s. It seems as if some of the things I'm reading about Testa refer to her as a woman jockey whereas others use female. Should we just go with whatever the cited such says even if it introduces some inconsistency in the article? -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)