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Here is what he says about knowledge & truth at http://www.zenit.org/article-16955?l=english Regensburg Address. There is no mention of terrorism or ecological disaster here. IF it is in some other text, please specify -- JimWae ( talk) 06:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This gives rise to two principles which are crucial for the issue we have raised. First, only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific. Anything that would claim to be science must be measured against this criterion. Hence the human sciences, such as history, psychology, sociology and philosophy, attempt to conform themselves to this canon of scientificity. A second point, which is important for our reflections, is that by its very nature this method excludes the question of God, making it appear an unscientific or pre-scientific question. Consequently, we are faced with a reduction of the radius of science and reason, one which needs to be questioned.
... the questions raised by religion and ethics, then have no place within the purview of collective reason as defined by "science", so understood, and must thus be relegated to the realm of the subjective. The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective "conscience" becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter.
... This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it.
The online citations do NOT support the "explanation" presented in the article.
This appears to be a serious misreading of the source
I have commented out the following. It MIGHT not be off-topic if it were in the Tolerance article (his main purpose in his writing is to reconclie tolerance with holding firmly to dogma/doctrine)
-- JimWae ( talk) 07:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that the content immediately under the sub-heading “Minimalist (deflationary) theories” overlaps a bit with the content immediately under the sub-heading “Redundancy and related theories.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by WriteNcomm ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just brought back Aquinas in the corresponding theory because this theory has to be described much more. I also refer to an old post now in the archives:
I also find the two paragraph criticism of correspondence theory within its own section unusual in the whole article. It is, I believe, one of the few instances, if not the only one, where there is a disproportionately big amount of criticism found in the same section. I believe that this has to resolved, for it shows an inconsistency in the article.
It seems to me strange as well, that Alfred Tarski's theory is mentioned here with this special phrase: "whose semantic theory is summarized further below in this article."
The move which took away Aquinas, placing him in the history section, might have been prompted by the fact that it seems only Aquinas holds on to this idea. So I have added other philosophers who follow the correspondence theory. Marax ( talk) 07:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Kenosis, for explaining your side. :) Glad to hear your comments.
Please allow me to reply to your points one by one so we can have a clear dialogue. I believe your points can be summarized basically into these points: I) Not right to put Aquinas to explain corresponding theory because (1) his is an “apologetic theory”, and therefore not neutral, and (2) he has a place elsewhere, (3) he is not the most prominent theorist, nor its inventor. II) the old version is better and has been there longer.
Before I actually write about these points let me also say that there are no counter-arguments yet against what I wrote above: a) it is not neutral to have one theory discussed mainly through the criticisms against it, b) we have to have consistency in dealing with sections: sections should only contain expositions of the theory and not criticisms of the theory, c) Tarski does not seem to have the right to be in the forefront of all discussions, unless it can be argued that he is more famous than Aquinas, which does not seem to follow even with a Google search (1.3 M for tarski; 85,900 for Alfred Tarski; 5.3 M for Aquinas, 3.1. M for Thomas Aquinas)
Aside from these reasons, which I believe are quite strong and have not been rebutted, let me now expound on the two points you raised: I.1. I do not believe that the statements of Aquinas as presented are apologetic, since they are not made to defend anything (apologia = Gk defense), but to state a philosophy of truth. The very fact that it is one of the earliest theory (Plato, etc.) means it is not a defensive theory. Also, the main attack against correspondence theory came from Kant, and Kant is after Aquinas. Although, if you mean by apologetics that his theory seems to be the most rationally well-built of all, then I would agree with you, although perhaps I am unjustifiably guessing too much into your ideas. ;) As to this addition creating neutrality problems, let me stress my points (a) and (b) above. The first time I saw this page, it showed antagonism to correspondence theory, even use of WP:WTA like "claim". So the addition has in fact balanced off the problems of neutrality. I.2. By putting Aquinas elsewhere, i.e. in the history or religion section, we will not be doing justice to the philosophical strength of the correspondence theory, by implying it is a dated concept, even a medieval idea, or a faith-based, non-rational explanation. I.3. I would disagree that Aquinas is not a prominent practitioner; it could be debatable that he is the most prominent, but there is great basis for saying so: for that you can read the Wikipedia article on Aquinas even just the intro. Also, google speaks for the prominence of Etienne Gilson (255,000) and Jacques Maritain ( 378,000). II. An argument for an old version sounds like a violation of WP:OWN. I think the Wikipedia community wants all articles to undergo kaizen, as talkpages like this one asserts.
I am trying to understand your position well. I have tweaked a bit what I did. For example, if the problem is the phrase "major proponent", then I deleted it. But it is a fact that he has influenced a number of philosophers. Many universities around the world are named after him. In fact he cannot be not overemphasized. Be that as it may, what I have done as a form of compromise is to put together all the Thomists, whose “google worth”, to coin a phrase, is worth millions. As another compromise, I have deleted Karol Wojtyla.
Please also take note that the origin of this contribution came from a discussion with User:JimWae here. We saw that it would be interesting for Wikipedia readers that the correspondence theory be discussed more lengthily, and I believe that the philosophers who have written much about this and have developed it fully are the Thomists.
Anyway, thanks again for explaining your points, Kenosis. Marax ( talk) 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to those who have supported me, especially Walter. We need your help to improve this article. Also, thanks, Kenosis, for clarifying your point of view. Now I understand where we differ: article structure and interpretation of Wikipedia policy of neutrality. :)
From Kenosis’ support of the pre-April 2008 version and his statements it seems that a particular theory should be described mainly by (1) the modern interpretation of that theory (Kenosis has said: “The injection of Aquinas' arguments and the Catholic thread … misrepresents this class of theory of truth, because it implies that the modern direction went through the Catholic Church.”) and (2) how the theory is “interpreted in any of the major encyclopedias of philosophy, or by any of the reliable secular texts which discuss theory of truth.”
As regards (1), I believe that this particular article deals with theories in a different way than merely stressing the modern interpretation. I believe this article divides its way of dealing with ideas on truth by separating theories and a historical presentation of ideas. To be consistent with the article, each theory should be described by the ideas of its most prominent proponents, or what Wikipedia calls significant views, no matter how old it is.
As regards (2), I believe that Wikipedia has a different principle in handling content. Typically, Wikipedia’s “neutrality principle” is thought to mean “secular principle” (the reference to “major encyclopedias of philosophy” amounts to the same since the modern graduate world is dominated by secular philosophers). Wikipedia is maverick in a sense that it wants “all significant views that have been published by reliable sources”, i.e. Wikipedia is in favor of multiple views and these include Thomist views, unless Wikipedia sustains a systemic anti-Catholic bias, which it does not, and avoids doing.
I have given proof above that the Thomist view is significant (among others: its google worth and the universities named after Thomas). The placing of Thomist view is consistent I repeat with the rest of the article. I believe it is now up to those defending the “countless other published philosophers who are correspondence theorists as regards their philosophy of truth” to write down their names and prove their significance as philosophers. If they are as prominent as all the Thomists put together then they should have the same prominence as the Thomists. (For your information this interpretation on the meaning of neutrality as applied to philosophical articles was the consensus after a long discussion at Talk:Agnosticism with User:Masterpiece2000, User:Ds13, User:Lafem, User:JimWae, etc.)
As another compromise, in view of the point that Aquinas followed Avicenna in important respects, I am willing to put the term “Moslem and Christian philosophers, especially Thomists”.
Still, I firmly believe my points (a) and (b) above are quite strong and have not been disputed until now, and these in fact show that undue weight has been given to criticisms of correspondence theory. Lastly, let me reiterate the need to show proof on the significance of other correspondence theories: a proof and significance that must be both strong enough to warrant a displacement of the Moslem and Christian philosophers, especially Thomists. Thanks, Kenosis, for this nice continuing discussion. Marax ( talk) 04:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
.
Please do not remove the NPOV tag until all issues are resolved.
Marax is correct -- neutrality means inclusiveness of all major POVs. Given that St. Thomas Aquinas and his followers did not invent correspondence does not preclude the fact that they have developed the theory into a serious system. Their major POV should be included in order that neutrality exists in treating correspondence theory. Other philosophers mentioned in other theories were neither their inventors. Walter Ching ( talk) 03:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think a clearer distinction should be made between truth and fact as the two (at least in a metaphysical/philosophical sense) don't always go hand in hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.60.27 ( talk) 20:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I think some writers make a distinction according to which a "fact" is something actively constructed, rather than just true because it's true. Etymologically a "fact" is something that has been "made" or "done" (factum). This distinction may be more felt in neo-Latin languages than in English.
The other point is that a fact, in some contexts, doesn't even have to be true. It's reasonably idiomatic English to say that someone's facts are wrong, rather than that they aren't facts at all.
Whether either of these distinctions is worthy of being treated here is unclear to me. I'd want to see some solid sources before the point were even touched in the article. -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should not assume that the terms are synonymous/used synonymously. If any authors argue that fact and truth are synonmymous then they should be cited (none spring to my mind). It is not satisfactory to rely on common usage or ordinary dictionairies since the terms are made use of in philosophy and logic in ways which may differ significantly from common usage. This would make an interesting article/paragragraph and the matter should not be treated glibly, lesr we lead the reader astray. I do not know of any generally accepted synonimty between the two. I am not convinced that Truth tables and truth-value would sound "deeper" than fact-tables/fact value. I don't think depth has anything to do with it--Philogo 12:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Example usages: In his intro to Wittgensteins's TLP Russell writes:
The world consists of facts: facts cannot strictly speaking be defined, but we can explain what we mean by saying that facts are what makes propositions true, or false.
Thus distinguishing facts and truths (a "proposition" expresses a truth if it is true and theya re made thuis by facts.--Philogo 13:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Wittgenstein himself (TLP) uses fact and truth as technical terms (or theses English words are used to transalte his technical terms):
The world is everything that is the case.
________________________________________
1.1
The world is the totality of facts, not of things.
1.2
The world divides into facts.
The world is everything that is the case.
________________________________________
4.0
4.1
A proposition presents the existence and non-existence of atomic facts.
4.2
The sense of a proposition is its agreement and disagreement with the possibilities of the existence and non-existence of the atomic facts.
4.3
The truth-possibilities of the elementary propositions mean the possibilities of the existence and non-existence of the atomic facts.
--Philogo 13:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'll admit I'm no philosophy but any of you heard of Lying With Facts? Take for example-Someone decides to form a survey to find out who will win an upcoming presidential election. He goes to several different locations across the country and ask 100 different people in each location whether they will vote for candidate A or B. All collecting all the data (or, if you will, FACTS) he finds that 65% of the people he's surveyed will vote for candidate A. He now therefore believes Candidate A will win the election. However as it turns out it is Candidate B that wins the election, despite whats his FACTS showed. Therefore, while the man had collected FACTS, they had NOT shown the TRUTH; that candidate B would win the election. There fore in this case, THE FACTS WERE NOT TRUE. This is just my theory, and since as I said before I'm not a Philosopher/Metaphysicist, but that's my reason for believe Fact and Truth are not always the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.60.27 ( talk) 23:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Distinguisher = impact: The nature of truth is change. A fact like 'earth is not flat' has no impact on modern world people and it does not have the property of truth therefore. As far as I understand the concept of truth originates from religion. It is related to information content in the sense that is describes the capacity of teaching, for instance, my capability of telling and explaining you the truth, in such beautiful way that you do not reject it, but instead believe in what I say. As no-one can really prove that this particular piece of text of mine has had an ineradicable effect on someone's life, might explain you the relativity of the truth, namely, truth is a personal experience of an individual. -- 192.100.124.219 ( talk) 08:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC) Martti R.
Facts, in themselves, cannot be true or false. They are just facts. So in real life, 'facts' and 'Truth' are in seperate domains. For example, what a magician shows to his audience are facts but the true and complete story of these facts have to be found elsewhere and not on the show stage. Another example, lately what we see on our TV screens are facts but, as most of us know, good engineers/programmers can let us see even dead people moving, talking and perhaps singing anything and in ways that these scientists may like. And when an event/accident is called 'natural', an ordinary observer has to believe it so, since many others have also decided to do the same (as a religious belief is based on the majority). Therefore, the best way to deceive the masses in a region or the world is by planning/creating some so called 'natural' facts since most people around the world are proud to say: "We believe what we see and hear only"... while I don't and you know why, now. MKAKJBF ( talk) 09:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, "fact" simply means "true proposition." So naturally fact would not be synonymous with truth because truth is a property of some propositions, whereas a fact is a species of proposition where truth is the differentia . Likewise, it's meaningless to talk about "true facts" (or worse, "false facts") because "true" is necessarily contained within "fact"--saying "true fact" amounts to "true true proposition." T of Locri ( talk) 12:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Kenosis made revisions that seem to me to be completely wrong.
He said that Hegel's definition of truth was not the polar opposite of Schopenhauer's. As the article states "For Schopenhauer, a judgment is a combination or separation of two or more concepts. If a judgment is to be an expression of knowledge, it must have a sufficient reason or ground by which the judgment could be called true. Truth is the reference of a judgment to something different from itself which is it sufficient reason (ground)." Then, the article quotes Hegel in saying: "…the manner of stating a proposition, of bringing forward grounds (reasons) for it, and likewise of refuting its opposite through grounds (reasons), is not the form in which truth can appear" Schopenhauer said that truth is shown when a ground or reason for a judgment is stated. Hegel said that truth is not shown when a ground or reason for a judgment is stated. Therefore, the assertions of the two philosophers are polar opposites. One uses "is." The other uses "is not."
Kenosis then claimed that the examples for Schopenhauer's transcendental and metalogical truths are incorrect. (1) Schopenhauer wrote that a judgment has transcendental truth when it is based on the forms of intuitive, empirical knowledge. These forms are space, time, and causality. An example from pure mathematics is "two straight lines do not enclose a space." (Schopenhauer, himself, used this example in § 32 of his book On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason.) This judgment is based solely on the form of pure, geometrical space and therefore has transcendental truth. An example from pure science is "matter cannot be created or destroyed." (Schopenhauer, himself, also used this example in § 32 of his book On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason.) This judgment is based solely on the form of causality and therefore has transcendental truth. The law of causality requires a permanent matter whose forms can be changed in a succession of causes. (2) Schopenhauer wrote that a judgment has metalogical truth when it is based on the forms of thought. These four forms are: "a is a"; "a is not not–a"; "a is either a or not–a"; and "if a then b." An example of a true judgment based on the form "a is a" is "a circle is a circle." An example of a true judgment based on the form "a is not not–a" is "a circle is not a square."
Kenosis, do you agree with the above? If so, then you were wrong to edit the article in the way that you edited it. If you disagree, then how and why do you disagree? (You should note that Schopenhauer used two of the examples that you said were not correct examples. Have you read the book?) Lestrade ( talk) 21:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
There is no real reason to include paintings just because their name contains the title of the article. It would seem that those pictures were tacked just to have pictures in the article. Please reconsider the usefulness of those images. Hello, My Name Is SithMAN8 ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Referring to my recent post about how to distinguish between the words truth and fact, The nature of truth is change, I would claim that a commonly agreeable definition for the word truth is possible. Considering the following as the first draft, what would be the correct forum to discuss the topic?
Apart from the various theories and claims about truth, the word truth is generally being used in context with forcefulness and change, purpose. Facts and true statements, close counterparts for the word truth, tend to avoid the said future related aspect as the future is characterized by uncertainty. As science tries to minimize uncertainties about topics studied, the word truth is generally not present in the scientific publications unless the truth itself is being considered. For instance, the concept of scientific truth is highly questionable and probably has its origins in religious debate, just as the word truth has the etymology that is closely related to words such as belief. The word truth is also adopted into mathematics and logic, in terms such as truth tables, obviously giving way to 'true' becoming misinterpreted as 'truth' the opposite for which would be lie instead of false. As the future aspect in relation with truth, it can be noticed that false is quite neutral term while as a lie has consequences.
-- Marttir ( talk) 00:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
You misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia, which is not to call for or promote research -- that is done mostly in universities and 'think tanks' -- but to report what researchers have published. A newspaper (in theory) should not try to make the news, only report the news. Similarly, an encyclopedia compiles what is known, but does not promote new discoveries.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
It took a long and bitter fight to get the philosophers working on this page to agree that truth had anything at all to do with reality, even in everyday usage. The current introduction is a compromise. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
From an individual perspective, a practical definition of 'Truth' may be said as: "Truth is the set of all useful coherent ideas/theories based on ONE logical system". For example, I didn't expect to see what I may call 'god' to discover useful theories based on it, for my life. As I also didn't ask to see/touch the 'Geometrical Dot' exactly as it is defined at school, before I took advantage of any applied ideas in Gemotry based on this dot and which cannot exist other than in my mind in the least. I may add that one of the obvious results of the new definition of 'Truth' is that as long one cannot trust fully his own developed logical reasoning, he has no way but to follow 'by faith' some other's truth. In that respect, I may call myself "an individual christian by reason, not faith" since, to my big surprise, the hints in Jesus sayings were able to find their place in my 'logical' Truth. MKAKJBF ( talk) 11:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
That editors who contribute to and watch this article check out this Article for Deletion nomination and comment. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Contrary to the impression given in much of the lede, most of this aricle is an account of the concept of truth in philosophy in particular logic. It would be better, I suggest, to reflect this in the title by renaming the article Truth(philosophy). The article Truth(diambiguation) might then be renamed just Truth, in accordance with Wilki policy as I understand it. Alternative views of truth could then be freely expressed in other articles of different names, perhaps Truth(artistic), Truth(theology) and such like. The disambiguation article Truth would then provide appropriate links directing the reader to the particular sort of truth he or she is seeking. Truth in English is not restricted to the use of the term in philosophy. Philosophy should not hog the whole Truth dish, any more than Physics should hog Gravity, or Mathematics Equality or Music Harmony -- Philogo ( talk) 21:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I strongly agree that Philogo should not rename articles unilaterally and without discussion. Please restore this article to its original name and if you want to press for a new name, discuss that here. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree that page name should not be renamed, before the project that is. All people here have relevant points about the topic, just as I do. Moreover, taking a look at the long history of the talk before the page 'finalized' should convince anyone that there is no real consensus about the content. I would propose that this discussion would continue in some place relevant for Wiki projects. Could you Philogo include a relevant link for the purpose, please. -- Marttir ( talk) 12:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
The word "calculus" is used with other meanings. But the usual meaning is so far and away the most common meaning that a search on calculus takes the reader directly to the article. Similarly, a person searching on truth is far more likely to want this article than a disambuation page. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess this type of suggestion will keep on coming since there is a tendency in this article to have a bias for professional philosophers. The German version does not seem to have this bias: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahrheit. The Spanish and Italian versions do not also seem to have a disproportionate number of philosophers in their coverage.
Perhaps a starting point is to rename section titles, e.g. to Notable thinkers and scholars rather than Notable philosophers. The lede refers to scholars and so it seems appropriate to follow the lede. Marax ( talk) 08:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Philogo that what the lede promises, the article underdelivers. However, I don't think that the bias towards philosophy is bad: once you start wondering about truth, your thoughts will turn philosophical, and the article does cover names such as Aquinas and Fromm. I do think that the lede advertises what is means to be truthful as a person, and then the article is only interested in what it is for a proposition to be truthful. The article would benefit from this being fixed. — Charles Stewart (talk) 09:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding the opening words of this article skin-creeping?-- Philogo ( talk) 01:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false. 3 a fact or belief that is accepted as true.
but this article of course is an encylopedia not a dictionary entry. -- Philogo ( talk) 13:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I would suppose that the language about the Mea... is correct, the content however is questionable. Where is the Wiki-Philosophy project to revisit the article page? Linguistically, the opposite of Truth is Lie. True and false are just statements, whileas Truth and Lie are manifestated by their consequences. If there is no verifiable change to be used as a reference, one should not really speak about the truth about something. The truth about word truth is that the related change is taking place, right here, right now, but I still would like to see the project, to carve out the other relevant meanings! Obviously, word truth has been misunderstood and misused just as often as someone has been called a liar instead of just a fool. Mathematical 'truth' tables for instance are like thin air without proper applications, and the truth about 'truth tables' might be that binary logic is the most simple one. Wouldn't the existing computers speak for this? In the advent of artificial intellect, it is best to keep it simple, philosophy also, namely, it should help man and not mislead him/her to tasks of linearizing endless loops. Meaning of life? What the ... philosophy topic is that? Can't they distinquish between religion and philosophy? Maybe that should be the first task about the word Truth also. My claim is, why should any strange concept should be allowed to steal the true meaning of a common word, that really has nothing complex about it? -- Marttir ( talk) 23:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
The notion of truth of critical rationalists should be also presented (as a starting point look at: [ [4]]). -- Curiosity F ( talk) 09:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)Curiosity_F
To editor 96.60.28.170... To be honest, you raise a good point; however, it is my opinion that any children who may see these images of classic paintings will not only be enriched by them, but also they will probably not see the "nasty" side that some adults might see. When I was a child, I saw great beauty is such works of art. And I also saw great beauty in a Van Gogh, or a Rembrandt or any number of works by great artists. Sculptures of David, Venus de Milo and other nude or scantily clad subjects are a part of this world. And I might add they are some of the better parts of this world.
Since this is an article about "Truth", I would ask you to honestly state your real concerns here. Are you worried that some child will see these nudes and they will cause him to become a pervert? Is it your concern that children will be permanently marred by being exposed to nudity? Children, as you may know, have very short attention spans. They revel in one fascinating thing after another, rarely staying with one thing for any length of time. In any case, it is a violation of Wikipedia's
Neutral point of view policy, as well as the
content preservation policy to remove works of art such as these for no reason other than it is one person's point of view that the nudes should not be viewed by children. If these images are offensive to you, then by all means use your mouse quickly and click on another article. There are several other articles related to Truth that can be found in the Navbars near the bottom of the article. Best of everything to you and yours!
—
.`^) Paine Ellsworth
diss`cuss (^`.
20:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, first of all, wikipedia is not censored, secondly, I'm pretty sure a child can't become a pervert or permanently marred by seeing some pictures of nude people not having sex. As you said, if you find these images offensive, then you have no obligation to look at them. Or, of course, you could use one of many options to view wikipedia without images. Zer0n888 ( talk) 21:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding
this edit in which
User:Lawyeditor reinserted her/his own section on "Truth as a somebody", I'm reverting it.
..... Here's why. Some time ago there was a section on "Truth in religion" in the article, and it turned out to be a pain in the neck to maintain in keeping with Wikipedia policy, notably
WP:NPOV,
WP:WEIGHT and
WP:NOR. I'd been an advocate of that brief section linked to a main article which became [[Truth {religious)]]. Ultimately, as various editors would throw various religious views, and due to the complete conceptual and editorial mess it had repeatedly become despite efforts by multiple editors to keep it reasonably organized and reasonably in keeping with
WP:Policies and guidelines, the section was removed without protest by me.
..... Here's just a sampling of additional assertions, found in various
WP:RSs, regarding persons other than Jesus who have been asserted to be "Truth as a somebody" (or as the section was first proposed by Lawyeditor, "Truth as not a something"):
Aletheia is, in Greek mythology, the truth-- that is, truth as a somebody-- not just someone known for telling the truth, but who is the truth personified. In Roman mythology
Veritas is not only the truth, but is truth, that is, truth as a somebody. Then there's
Apollo, the God of sun, truth and healing. Shall other "gods who are personifications of truth" now be included? Or are we only referring to the human side of Jesus as "the way, the truth, and the life" as proposed by Lawyeditor? Here's an ancient Egyptian perspective: "In a hymn to
Amon-Re, the creator and sustainer of the world, Ma’at equates with truth [emphasis mine: read that as "Ma'at is the truth"]: Thy Mother is Truth, O Amon!" (Cite to: Erik Hornung, Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt, Cornell University Press, 1982, p74).
..... And another word or two about Jesus, who is, according to John 1:1,14, "is the Word", and of course in John 14:6, "the way, the truth, and the life". In Revelation 3:14, Jesus is said to have called himself the "Amen, the Faithful and True Witness." In
Zoroastrian theology, the angel
Rashnu, who presides at the "ordeal court", is truth (
[5]), another truth-as-somebody. Care to discuss
Muslim theology? Here's a bit of
Islamic prophecy: "All glory will come after his advent. He will be the personification of Truth and Uprightness, as if
Allah had descended from the Heaven." (Tazkira, Page 691)-- yet another truth-as-somebody.
..... Here's a slightly more sweeping assertion from Indian theology: "Truthfulness through the Mother
Shiva: [Shiva] said Man has never lied so much as today. To know Her is to be Truthful. To live in Her is to become a personification of Truth." (from Foundations of Indian Spirituality
[6]) In other words, you too, if you live in Shiva, can be truth-as-a-somebody. Clealightvideos.net offers several somebodies from an
interfaith standpoint: "... visualize brilliant white light emerging from the personification of truth: The
Buddha,
Padmasambhava,
Jesus, or
God." Here's another specific truth-as-somebody: "
Baghwan
Sri Sathya Sai Baba, being a personification of Truth and Love is no exception. In some way or the other, those opposed to the message of Truth try to character assassinate or simply crucify the messengers. Such is their level of opposition to the Truth. They just can't handle it with their closed hearts and minds."
..... And, if the assertion is that truth is a somebody, in each case here a particular somebody, according to WP policy there need be some room for counterarguments too. Here's just one of countless such arguments, by Werner Wollshleger: "If someone claims to be the [sole] personification of truth, it makes all others liars. ... Untruth or lies can be told in a manifold way; the truth on the other hand stands all alone, and irrefutable." There are numerous additional such counterarguments from notable
WP:RSs.
Richard Dawkins'
The God Delusion, for example, has a few things to say about Jesus as a personification of truth (or if you prefer, as the truth) as do other notable writers and scholars. And I could go on here with more, though I would hope this is an adequate sample of how tangled the issue of truth-as-a-somebody is (in addition to how already complex the issue of
Truth already is without personifying the concept onto particular persons or gods, or both).
..... IMO, according to WP policies and guidelines, there is no sustainable, justifiable place in this article for sections such as "Truth as a somebody" that are written essentially as a sermon emphasizing the slant of one Roman Catholic evangelist, or for that matter a commonly but not universally held stance in Christianity.
User:Lawyeditor's recently inserted section started
here, with the section title "View of truth as not a something", reverted
here, then replaced by Lawyeditor
here with a new section title "View of truth as somebody", and removed again
here and replaced again by Lawyeditor again
here. According to this proposed section by Lawyeditor, "Expressing the serious view of
Christians, especially the
Catholic Church, based on reason and revelation, Father
John Corapi repeatedly states and is frequently quoted as stating (with minor variations in wording) that "The Truth is not a something. It is a Somebody. And His Name is
Jesus Christ.”
..... As I hope I've made sufficently plain, this material based on religious scripture about who "The truth" is, or who "is the Personification of Truth", etc., is not appropriate for this article. To date at least, this article is about what truth is as a quality capable of description about its rationally arguable qualitative characteristics by notable writers and philosophers (some religious ones already included), but not about personalities claimed to be "the truth", whether religious or not. ...
Kenosis (
talk)
02:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
It is apparent that the only practical way to combat the anti-Catholic bigotry of Kenosis is to create a separate article on Truth As Somebody. Lawyeditor ( talk) 02:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
A month ago there were sections on Badiou and Osho. I found these useful and would like to put them back. Why has somebody removed them? (They are useful because they are pointers to and brief explanations of other approaches to truth. That someone may not like these approaches or understand them, is for me no reason for not mentioning them since they exists as philosophies of truth) Harx ( talk) 11:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
'The truth about the Truth is the Truth'. In other words the truth is independent of us and it describes itself without our input. All we can do is to observe it being a part of it. The various truths describing the Truth have the same organizations as the Truth. Each truth within the plurality of truths of the description has its own plurality of truths describing it. With incease in the plurality of the truths of the description the truths grow less and less important while the Truth, which is the synthesis of the description,beomes more and more perfect. The observer of the plurality of truths describing the Truth does not have to observe all the truths of the description. He can observe only some of them. He can also use truths which do not belong to the description. The Truth will then be partial or imperfect. A truth can be accepted by the observer through 'belief' as one static unit, in which case the change is quantitative or through description which is a continuous-quantitative change within the plurality of the truths of the description. Every truth is the duality of a 'body and soul', which means the material and the immaterial parts. 'Body' of the truth is in the material space time and it interacts with us through senses. 'Soul' is in the mind, located in the immaterial world and it is a reflection of the body. A truth is a 'fact' when 'body and soul' as material-immaterial duality, have identical organizations. The truth 'fact' cannot be communicated to another observer even though it can be observed by both of them. The truth can be also observed indirectly, in which case 'body' of the observed truth A is substituted by the body of an independent truth B acting as a 'symbol'. The 'body and soul' of the observed truth A are then immaterial and the duality is the 'meaning' of the 'symbol'. This way the observer interacts with the truth A through an intermediary of the independen truth B connected to the observed truth A by illogicality. This method of observation allows communiction of truths to other observers who use the same symbols. It also allows the observer to see the truths in only the immaterial space time, without using his material senses. The Truth is perfect when the observer knows all the truths describing it. The Truth and the reality of the observer are then self sufficient and static. Description of the perfect Truth contains also the contradictory truths such as 'yes' and at the same time 'no'. Both contradictory truths, in the duality, are correct. For example the statement that the Universe had a beginning and the negation that it did not because it is eternal, are both correct. Every duality is one Whole when the duality is seen from the outside. KK ( 92.29.77.117 ( talk) 13:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC))
It strikes me as a bit odd (if not POV) that so many of the philosophers listed in "Modern Age" section represent some form of relativism. This gives the impression that anti-realism is dominant among contemporary thinkers, yet this is anything but the... truth. I mean, where are Frege and Russell? Where is Dummett? Or Searle? Or Lowe? How does someone like Nishida crowd out the whole of the Analytic school? T of Locri ( talk) 11:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on David Hume.-- Thinking thinker ( talk) 17:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The wish of truth is would change the world surrounds us, the world is the same time that we live in, the live is as the same present that we are rushing to, the present is our consciousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.103.184.169 ( talk) 23:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
I am a Taiwanese and did not know the TRUTH until I was 50 years old. I worshiped idols in Taiwan follow the tradition which said many gods came down this world. Now I am sure that only Jesus Christ came down this world is true story of God shown to human being in flesh. God is everybody's spiritual Father. He showed His Way in the Gospel story. He is our Father and Lord. Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Jn 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Mt 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mk 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Lk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Jn 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Jn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Rev 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name(Jesus).
Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Jn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God(Bible) came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mk 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.(so that God is everyone's Father.) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.25.6.9 (
talk)
05:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Every truth is the duality of a symbol and the meaning of that symbol. The symbol defines a ‘sphere’ which contains a limited plurality of truths describing that which is being symbolized. Symbol is not a part of the description, it is ‘outside’ of the sphere and it can be any truth, independent of the description of the truth, but interacting with it. For example the symbol ‘tiger’ selects and limits for the observer a group of truths such as ‘four legged animal, striped and similar to a cat’. This describes the animal but not the symbol ‘tiger’ nor any of the other symbols in the description such as ‘leg’, ‘stripe’ and so on. Each symbol has its own group of truths describing it. A symbol acts as the ‘name’ of the sphere and the synthesis of the limited group of the truths of the description. The sum of the meanings of the symbols used in the description is the ‘meaning’ of the symbol of the observed truth. The meaning cannot be used for communication between observers because meanings are temporal, they are in the mind within the immaterial space time and they do not affect senses of the observer. There is no direct communication between minds. Only by using symbols, acting on the observer’s senses, enables observers to communicate among themselves. Each truth, used in the description of something observed, acts through its symbols, on the senses of the observer while meaning of each symbol acts on the mind. Symbol is a spatial organization while meaning is temporal. Meaning represents difference arising from change from one meaning of the description of the observed unit to another meaning. This is manifested as the organization of the unit. Therefore each truth is the duality of space time. Symbols, being spatial, can be material or immaterial while meanings, being temporal, are always immaterial. Organization of the observed truth represents the laws of nature manifested as the logical relationships of the properties of each truth of the description of the observed truth. Observer of the limited plurality of the truths of the description can either observe the truths in their static state or he can motivate them and cause interactions which transform existence of the truths to non existence and the other way round, using the observer’s memory. Alternatively the interactions can create for the observer entirely new truths. KK ( 78.146.57.200 ( talk) 13:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
An anonymous editor from 90.58.xxx.yyy has made several edits lately. Here is a diff. Truth is not a monolithic ideal— the lead paragraph now covers various meanings appropriately, in my opinion. Comment? __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 01:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
The current lede states:
The first issue is whether the first sentence is a run-on, or whether it is close enough to a run-on to be confusing to read. The substance of what it says is not in dispute. The second issue is whether or not the introductory phrase "truth can have a variety of meanings" constitutes a vague way of introducing a concept - vague writing which can be replaced with more definitive writing. The fact that there are different meanings is not in dispute. The third issue is whether the phrase "which can correspondingly take logical, factual, or ethical meanings" applies more to the positive concept "truth" than to its inverse "falsehood," such that the above language might be best used to clarify the prime concept. Proposed:
- Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 21:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Truth may refer to:
- Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 02:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Truth may refer to:
which have the:
of being:
That MW dicdef covers most of these. - Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 02:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Plain and simple, Jesus claimed to be the truth. If you found Him, you found the truth; if you knew Him, you knew the truth.
No other thinker has dared to be as bold or as innovative, yet here He does not receive a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.115.54 ( talk) 14:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Ok... and the Bible is not a reliable source? Or you need a doctorate in theology? Or those and something else? It's a little flaky to suggest that anyone could call themselves the truth, no one did since the beginning of creation to His time and no one has since. You do realize that thousands of witnesses went to their death believing what He said, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.115.54 ( talk) 17:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Philogo ( talk) 01:34, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
There was some research published in 2010, 'The LIGHT; The Rainbow of Truths - The Jesus Christ Code", that may add new meanings to the message of Jesus Christ, showing the differences between truth, truths and THE TRUTH.
24.79.147.13 ( talk) 14:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
The lede says "Truth can have a variety of meanings"; does it mean to say "Truth has a variety of meanings" or something different? Philogo ( talk) 20:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
not only did Jesus claim to be the truth or the bible in flesh but the bible states it is impossible for God to lie in the book of titus. jesus had many other names also http://www.todaystruthwriter.com/2010/07/08/undercover-christian-do-you-know-him-today.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Todaystruthwriter ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
If the truth is truly spoken... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.70.98 ( talk) 17:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm speechless...
64.134.242.79 ( talk) 00:15, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The truth is that which exists, as a unit, in the consciousness of the observer. Each truth has personal characteristics defined by other truths and it is logically connected to other, independent truths outside. Truths are experienced by the ‘self’ in the immaterial space time. Every truth is the duality of a symbol and its meaning. The duality is remembered in the memory. In future when a symbol enters memory it combines with identical symbol from the past. This brings into the consciousness of the observer the truth. There are three different groups of truths. They are ‘concrete’ truth, ‘abstract’ truth and ‘emotions'. ‘Concrete’ truth is that which has spatial magnitude containing organized, by the laws of nature, motivation into a limited plurality of parts of the whole truth, each part a separate and different truth. Because of the spatial limitation, ‘concrete’ truth can be copied in the material space time and it can be observed in static or in dynamic state. ‘Abstract’ truth has no spatial limitation and it has no magnitude. For this reason abstract truth cannot be copied in the material world and it cannot interact with either material or immaterial senses. ‘Abstract’ truth is not a spatial organization, but temporal and it cannot form a unit. Observer experiences ‘abstract’ truth as static state of unlimited plurality of identical truths. Emotions cannot be observed because they are motivation. The duality of the truth, with the emotion which it causes, is remembered. In future when the same or similar truth enters memory it combines through identity with the truth already in the memory. The emotion related to the truths is repeated. The type of emotion depends on the external truth which created the emotion in the past. As motivation emotion is the duality of contradictory actions such as positive-negative, pleasant-unpleasant and so on. Emotions are difficult to control because they block reasoning. KK ( 178.182.5.124 ( talk) 11:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC))
Do the semi-pornographic Victorian nudes add anything to this article? 81.135.61.249 ( talk) 19:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
An account of J.C.C. McKinsey's definition of truth in Synthese, vol. 7, 1948-9, pp 428 - 433 should be added, if not here then to some other article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.1.146 ( talk) 12:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Can we switch truth and reality in the first sentence? It creates an endless loop while trying to navigate to philosophy by clicking the first link on any Wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.181.127 ( talk) 00:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding recent edits to this page. The thread is " Users playing "Get to Philosophy" game to the detriment of Wikipedia". Comments are welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The "philosophy game" stuff is nonsense, of course, but it is at least interesting that the first link in truth is to fact and vice versa. The lead section of fact seems to me, admittedly a non-expert, as very very weak. I have started two new sections in talk:fact about this, and would be particularly interested in soliciting comment at talk:fact#Fact vs truth. -- Trovatore ( talk) 02:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Can we reverse the "reality" and "fact" links so that the "Philosophy Game" still works? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kp1197 ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
"It does damage to the Wikipedia project to mess around with article content in order to suit some arbitrary rule. " -- It also does damage to the project to *not* follow some arbitrary rule! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kp1197 (
talk •
contribs)
21:02, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Philosophy, from philo-sophia - the love of knowledge, encompasses all things. Therefore, it was suitable that by following the first link in every Wiki article inevitably brought one to the page on philosophy. However, a recent update has created a feedback loop, linking truth to fact, and fact to truth. This issue can be resolved without compromising the integrity of the article by switching the words "fact" and "reality" in the first sentence so that it is written as: "Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with reality or fact."
67.204.198.33 ( talk) 01:46, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Because of the lack of etymology of the term truth, the article confuses truth with at least all philosophical terms. In many cases there are other terms we can use instead of the term truth but because we have not clarify in our minds etymologically what truth is, we confuse it with all these philosophical terms.Nestanaios 15:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nestanaios ( talk • contribs)
Why is there no section on Alain Badiou among the modern philosophers? Not only is he one of the most important philosophers of the post-war period, but his theory of truth as fidelity-to-the-event has been crucial in helping continental philosophy escape the empty relativism of the postmoderns. I suggest a distillation of the second chapter of Infinite Thought would make a good start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.209.86 ( talk) 19:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
The editor who flagged the topic of this article as "controversial" must have a weird sense of humor or is completely unaware of the implications for today's public discourse. 84.49.143.21 ( talk) 19:14, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
"God is triune ..." ... А может быть двуистин? Maybe dvuistin? андроид 91.205.25.30 ( talk) 14:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
The second para of the article (tagged) is unintelligible. Redheylin ( talk) 02:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
The words "reality" and "truth" need to be switch if the wikipedia philosophy easter egg (that clicking on the first blue word not in parenthesis/italicized etc. will always lead to the Philosophy page). 6/07/12 108.48.52.165 ( talk) 06:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I reverted a couple of good-faith edits that want to begin with philosophy. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Do we really need to start out by saying that "Truth has a variety of meanings..." Lots of words have a variety of meanings, and the article mentions several further down the page.
While the claim that "truth" is commonly used to mean "constancy or sincerity" has one reference, I would like to see that claim either dropped (unless another reference can be found) or at least moved further down the page. Do we say a person is telling the truth if he lies constantly? Do we say a person is telling the truth if he is sincerely mistaken? It doesn't seem to me that this usage, even though preferred by Merriam-Webster, is really a common usage. Is there any chance that the "archaic" note on Merriam-Webster definition 1a is also intended to apply to 1b? I know we have to rely on sources, but we can use a little common sense when sources disagree, and I don't know of any other dictionary that makes the claim that "constancy or sincerity" are common meanings of "truth".
I would like the first sentence to say, "Truth is most often used to mean in accord with fact or reality [1] or fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal." [1]
Comments?
Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I think Rick's proposal is fine, a simpler definition is best, unusual or archaic definitions can be discovered by the reader if interested.
Since most of the sources in the article are philosophers, I think we should include a more significant reference to philosophy. But I accept RIck's point that the article shouldn't start with philosophy, my POV unfortunately! TonyClarke ( talk) 13:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Many human activities, including science, law, and everyday life, depend upon the concept of truth, often as an undiscussed assumption.
I'm not sure what sources say that truth is "an undiscussed assumption". Seems frequently discussed to me. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
To my mind the Ratzinger section is very much displaced and rather belongs under "trivia". First of all - even if it was the case that Ratzinger had a view about truth in the sense that he explained what truth is (which might be the case and I just haven't found it yet)- the current text about Ratzinger's "view" does not at all contain such an explanation or a significant part of it. The only information given in that direction is that truth is the same as love. But this is hardly comprehensible because there is not even the slightest hint about how this could be the case or what could be meant by that. Furthermore, even if the section did actually contain this relevant information, Ratzinger's view - in spite of him being a notable person - is not a notable view. The current paragraphs about Ratzinger's collection of wisdom about truth seems to be a head over heels attempt to get Ratzinger's teachings in this article by all means. I suggest it is either deleted or it is both completed and evidence given why not only the person behind the view but also the view itself is notable. 132.199.193.96 ( talk) 16:56, 27 September 2012 (UTC) andi
The book leaving truth, by Keith Sewell, published March 22, 2012 presents an important point of view that I would like to see integrated into this article. I recently wrote a review of the book available at: http://www.librarything.com/work/13133759/reviews Because the existing article is extensive and complex, I will leave it to others to integrate these ideas. If, however, you would like me to take the lead on this please let me know. Thanks, -- Lbeaumont ( talk) 20:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Instead of all articles leading to philosophy, they all lead to truth. That's all that's happened. There will always be some page that all links eventually get you to, whether or not it's philosophy. I figured that some point in the track would change at some point, and philosophy would no longer be the end. --Gioku talk user 20:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, this has been changed back to philosophy. I like it better as philosophy anyway.-- Zer0n888 ( talk) 01:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Try Wiki Orality and Oral traditions--compare with today's philosophical understandings---a more direct way to Truth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.248.113.218 ( talk) 19:09, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Orality is truth, <ref>wiki and oral traditions</ref> arnlodg--- more sources to come if talk occures — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnlodg ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 20 May 2013
This effort is a side step around the origins of philosophy, in that, Wikipedia's forums about Orality and Oral traditions provide bases necessary for understanding "practice as truth". which is not, in any understandable way, provided at the forum for Truth; citing Socrates life is not helpful because academia only seems to recognize Truth now through theory, Orality is truth in practice not truth in theory; finally this effort is bold to invigorate practice through the oral tradition of "writing".
[1]
172.248.113.218 (
talk)
18:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)arnlodg
Truth Forum needs at least two main sections---Theory and Practice---(Orality is Practice)
If you have the time---Socrates talk, then for him was truth, through the practice of talk (Orality)) with Plato---our talk, now, is same (Orality) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
172.248.113.218 (
talk)
18:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
ok I give up, but---when we are here in the present moment citations are not needed ---that is what it was like for Socrates then and what it could be like for people today--- [2] 172.248.113.218 ( talk) 19:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)arnlodg,
I am a bit annoyed seeing an article on truth with pictures interspersed of various allegorical figures that do no make sense with respect to truth, an abstract term or concept. If you claim that truth equals to those representations or embodiments of the idea of truth otherwise explained in detail then you sell rubbish in popcorn cups. You would never find two people who would seriously consider allegories, symbols, etc. as a fact other than an artist's rendering of something that he himself has no idea of how to give a shape of.
As a general remark, why do you (Wikipedia as a whole) not see the difference between the verbs of introspection and the verbs of extrospection?
Genezistan ( talk) 04:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
If you know what abstract or abstraction mean, please do not hesitate to start an article on them Genezistan ( talk) 14:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
1. Abstract as defined in Wordnet: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=abstract&sub=Search+WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o8=1&o1=1&o7=&o5=&o9=&o6=&o3=&o4=&h= Meaning (gloss) - consider a concept without thinking of a specific example; consider abstractly or theoretically. 2. abstract in (upper) ontology SUMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFQRvyyv7Fs Terns and Concepts 18.30 It contrasts physical and abstract, but the distinction is not shown in the structure. The problem will take you to the explanation of three words: term, concept and referent. Are they properly explained in Wikipedia and are they cross-referenced? 3. In here: /info/en/?search=Concept#Abstract_objects Also: referent /info/en/?search=Referent
A load of vague crap. Should you not know how to define a term and a concept, use this http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/definitions.htm#part5.6 - with care Genezistan ( talk) 04:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
THE TRUE DEFINITION OF TRUTH
Very few people (less than 10%) understand the true definition of truth, and many people cannot handle the truth and twist the definition. Having been an engineer for many years, one cannot build skyscrapers or bridges without dealing with the real truth.
I think it is important to start with classic dictionary definitions of truth as provided below. If you have others, please use them, but there is only one truth. Unfortunately, many of the definitions under truth have nothing to do with the definition of truth.
From the American College Dictionary: Truth 1. that which is true; the true or actual facts of a case. 2. conformity with fact or reality: verity. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, or principle. 4. genuiness, reality, or actual existance.
From the Webster Dictionary: Truth 1. the body of real things events or facts. 2. the property of being in accord with fact or reality. 3. the state of being the case.
Scientific Definition: Truth 1. the actual state or position of things at a given time (truth may change with time). 2. truth may be fixed and directly observable, such as the words in a recorded document. 3. the actual truth is absolute; perceptions of truth may only be conceptual. 4. we may only be able to determine the truth within a perceived degree of accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by William Cave ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
The article starts by listing the primary theories of truth and ends with a list of philosophers and what they proposed. It would be useful to have each philosopher associated with a theory (or theories). For example, "Nietzsche can be regarded as a proponent of what are currently identified as pragmatist and coherence theories". This may be totally wrong, and I am using it just to illustrate the type of thing I am talking about. Someone who understands more about the subject that I do would have to make the contribution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.98.209 ( talk) 21:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I was searching for a specific quote about truth when I was pointed to the Spanish wiki entry for Truth. (Verdad [1]) A more perfect and pure wiki could not exist apparently. When I clicked on English, I guess I half expected a perfect or at least equivalent translation. I was pretty horrified at what I found. Truth is not subjective and yet, subjective is all I see on the English wiki. A wiki entry for Truth should not be placed in the hands of those who misuse their responsibility, overstep, side-step and knit pick at it until it has become utterly meaningless. [2]
Truth is not neutral, either. Chance is neutral. Truth is objective. It is not based on the wavering perceptions of human beings. If that is offensive or controversial, then that is what it has to be. It's not up to personal sentiment, interpretation, or perceptions of reality filtered by what we want to be true or not true. Truth is simply that which is.
Is it possible to simply translate Spanish Wiki Verdad for Truth? Quotes used and references cited aren't even the same. Not even close. Following the link to one of the author's biographies, and clicking "English" again, resulted in an even MORE dismal wiki page. The Spanish one is thriving with information, the other is nothing but a stripped down via bot generated page, even the picture was removed. Shouldn't there be more consistency between translations?
I'm very new and still learning the coding. I apologize and realize I'll be over-scrutinized for my newness and hard words. But truth is the exact opposite of that if information is suppressed and omitted by the de facto academic tyranny.
Quid est veritas?
Mahzarati (
talk)
07:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Arguably the Latin "Veritas" and the English "Truth" are not precisely the same concept as you note, but I doubt the translation idea would be a good idea even if this were not true. Interesting observations though. Kingshowman ( talk) 09:12, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm surprised that there is no mention of Frege, who devoted much of his philosophical writings to the concept of truth.
One might e.g. see him as a forerunner of Ramsay and redundancy theory (" Man kann ja geradezu sagen: "Der Gedanke, daß 5 eine Primzahl ist, ist wahr." Wenn man aber genauer zusieht, so bemerkt man, daß damit eigentlich nicht mehr gesagt ist als in dem einfachen Satz "5 ist eine Primzahl". ... "You can even say it explicitly: "The thought that 5 is a prime number is true." But if you take a closer look, you notice that actually no more is said by this than in the simple statement "5 is a prime number"." from "Sense and Reference"; there is a corresponding passage in "Der Gedanke", using violas as an example. Sry, my bad transl.); AFAIK he is a "redundan.." ... -cist? ...- tist? in that he held the concept of truth to be indefinable (Der Gedanke), as it would lead to either circularity or infinite regress.
AFAIK*2 he developed the concept of a truth value (S&R, p. 34), or, some of the tools of formal theories. And so on. Proper Fregeists will know more.
Not asking to have the article totally fregenized, but a brief mention, or even a section of his own (I mean, when you can have one on Schopenhauer...) would make the article more, as it were, true.
T
88.89.219.147 (
talk)
05:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
This page is just a magnet for the types of unconstructive edits that unconfirmed accounts bring to Wikipedia and make my job relevant. Is there an easy way to see if vandalism is above the 5% threshold defined? I mean, there is a THREAT posted on the edit page re: some sort of game. L3X1 ( talk) 01:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Why is this: Epistemic theories of truth not included under major theories of triuth? Linhart ( talk) 11:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Should perhaps be semi-protected here, in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.189.36.49 ( talk) 17:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
The section on this seems rather weak to me. By this I mean that the explanation could probably be clarified. Plus the citation is to a book, not on Marxism, but on Foucault. Are the quotes from this book; I’m not sure. I think we can do better! I think there are people out there who know about this stuff and could very easily fix it. Help! DouglasBell ( talk) 20:55, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello guys, it's written on truth page on Wikipedia : "However, logic does not deal with truth in the absolute sense, as for instance a metaphysician does". I think it's false because many of foundations of logic are axioms (three laws of thought). It's true everywhere and all the time. So, what's the difference between that and metaphysicians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vouivre ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Why is the term "It is said" used to present something as though it was fact?Also the term "It is thought".It is said by whom;it is thought by whom??We should guard against using these misleading terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawqeye ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
I've restored the the edit (revision 991138401) adding the section "truthmaker theory", which was undone (revision 991184735) by the user Snowded. I'm not sure that I agree with the justification that "we don't cut and paste like that". If this is not just a personal opinion but there is an explicit Wikipedia policy against it then it might be a good idea to cite it here. The article Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia suggests otherwise. The content in question is mostly taken from Truthmaker theory but carefully modified to fit into the context of theories of truth. Truthmaker theory is a prominent field in contemporary philosophy. This can be seen from the sources cited here and in the main article. This prominence should be reflected in the content of this article. Having one wiki-link in the "See also"-section doesn't do justice to this. Phlsph7 ( talk) 05:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I'll try to give a defense of my argument that the section on truthmaker theory should be included in the article correspondence theory. I find it a little difficult since you ( Snowded) have so far avoided to spell out your argument against it in detail. The gist I got form what you said is that you are not familiar with truthmaker theory and consider it as at best a marginal theory that is not directly relevant to the correspondence theory of truth. Please correct me if I misinterpreted you. I found some passages in tertiary sources that I think prove my point. Both draw the connection between correspondence theory and truthmaker theory in their lead-sections and spell it out further in the main text. Please have a look at:
I'm not sure that I want to spend more time and energy defending this edit. If you don't find these passages convincing then I'll accept your call. Phlsph7 ( talk) 05:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
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Here is what he says about knowledge & truth at http://www.zenit.org/article-16955?l=english Regensburg Address. There is no mention of terrorism or ecological disaster here. IF it is in some other text, please specify -- JimWae ( talk) 06:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This gives rise to two principles which are crucial for the issue we have raised. First, only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific. Anything that would claim to be science must be measured against this criterion. Hence the human sciences, such as history, psychology, sociology and philosophy, attempt to conform themselves to this canon of scientificity. A second point, which is important for our reflections, is that by its very nature this method excludes the question of God, making it appear an unscientific or pre-scientific question. Consequently, we are faced with a reduction of the radius of science and reason, one which needs to be questioned.
... the questions raised by religion and ethics, then have no place within the purview of collective reason as defined by "science", so understood, and must thus be relegated to the realm of the subjective. The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective "conscience" becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter.
... This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it.
The online citations do NOT support the "explanation" presented in the article.
This appears to be a serious misreading of the source
I have commented out the following. It MIGHT not be off-topic if it were in the Tolerance article (his main purpose in his writing is to reconclie tolerance with holding firmly to dogma/doctrine)
-- JimWae ( talk) 07:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that the content immediately under the sub-heading “Minimalist (deflationary) theories” overlaps a bit with the content immediately under the sub-heading “Redundancy and related theories.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by WriteNcomm ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just brought back Aquinas in the corresponding theory because this theory has to be described much more. I also refer to an old post now in the archives:
I also find the two paragraph criticism of correspondence theory within its own section unusual in the whole article. It is, I believe, one of the few instances, if not the only one, where there is a disproportionately big amount of criticism found in the same section. I believe that this has to resolved, for it shows an inconsistency in the article.
It seems to me strange as well, that Alfred Tarski's theory is mentioned here with this special phrase: "whose semantic theory is summarized further below in this article."
The move which took away Aquinas, placing him in the history section, might have been prompted by the fact that it seems only Aquinas holds on to this idea. So I have added other philosophers who follow the correspondence theory. Marax ( talk) 07:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Kenosis, for explaining your side. :) Glad to hear your comments.
Please allow me to reply to your points one by one so we can have a clear dialogue. I believe your points can be summarized basically into these points: I) Not right to put Aquinas to explain corresponding theory because (1) his is an “apologetic theory”, and therefore not neutral, and (2) he has a place elsewhere, (3) he is not the most prominent theorist, nor its inventor. II) the old version is better and has been there longer.
Before I actually write about these points let me also say that there are no counter-arguments yet against what I wrote above: a) it is not neutral to have one theory discussed mainly through the criticisms against it, b) we have to have consistency in dealing with sections: sections should only contain expositions of the theory and not criticisms of the theory, c) Tarski does not seem to have the right to be in the forefront of all discussions, unless it can be argued that he is more famous than Aquinas, which does not seem to follow even with a Google search (1.3 M for tarski; 85,900 for Alfred Tarski; 5.3 M for Aquinas, 3.1. M for Thomas Aquinas)
Aside from these reasons, which I believe are quite strong and have not been rebutted, let me now expound on the two points you raised: I.1. I do not believe that the statements of Aquinas as presented are apologetic, since they are not made to defend anything (apologia = Gk defense), but to state a philosophy of truth. The very fact that it is one of the earliest theory (Plato, etc.) means it is not a defensive theory. Also, the main attack against correspondence theory came from Kant, and Kant is after Aquinas. Although, if you mean by apologetics that his theory seems to be the most rationally well-built of all, then I would agree with you, although perhaps I am unjustifiably guessing too much into your ideas. ;) As to this addition creating neutrality problems, let me stress my points (a) and (b) above. The first time I saw this page, it showed antagonism to correspondence theory, even use of WP:WTA like "claim". So the addition has in fact balanced off the problems of neutrality. I.2. By putting Aquinas elsewhere, i.e. in the history or religion section, we will not be doing justice to the philosophical strength of the correspondence theory, by implying it is a dated concept, even a medieval idea, or a faith-based, non-rational explanation. I.3. I would disagree that Aquinas is not a prominent practitioner; it could be debatable that he is the most prominent, but there is great basis for saying so: for that you can read the Wikipedia article on Aquinas even just the intro. Also, google speaks for the prominence of Etienne Gilson (255,000) and Jacques Maritain ( 378,000). II. An argument for an old version sounds like a violation of WP:OWN. I think the Wikipedia community wants all articles to undergo kaizen, as talkpages like this one asserts.
I am trying to understand your position well. I have tweaked a bit what I did. For example, if the problem is the phrase "major proponent", then I deleted it. But it is a fact that he has influenced a number of philosophers. Many universities around the world are named after him. In fact he cannot be not overemphasized. Be that as it may, what I have done as a form of compromise is to put together all the Thomists, whose “google worth”, to coin a phrase, is worth millions. As another compromise, I have deleted Karol Wojtyla.
Please also take note that the origin of this contribution came from a discussion with User:JimWae here. We saw that it would be interesting for Wikipedia readers that the correspondence theory be discussed more lengthily, and I believe that the philosophers who have written much about this and have developed it fully are the Thomists.
Anyway, thanks again for explaining your points, Kenosis. Marax ( talk) 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to those who have supported me, especially Walter. We need your help to improve this article. Also, thanks, Kenosis, for clarifying your point of view. Now I understand where we differ: article structure and interpretation of Wikipedia policy of neutrality. :)
From Kenosis’ support of the pre-April 2008 version and his statements it seems that a particular theory should be described mainly by (1) the modern interpretation of that theory (Kenosis has said: “The injection of Aquinas' arguments and the Catholic thread … misrepresents this class of theory of truth, because it implies that the modern direction went through the Catholic Church.”) and (2) how the theory is “interpreted in any of the major encyclopedias of philosophy, or by any of the reliable secular texts which discuss theory of truth.”
As regards (1), I believe that this particular article deals with theories in a different way than merely stressing the modern interpretation. I believe this article divides its way of dealing with ideas on truth by separating theories and a historical presentation of ideas. To be consistent with the article, each theory should be described by the ideas of its most prominent proponents, or what Wikipedia calls significant views, no matter how old it is.
As regards (2), I believe that Wikipedia has a different principle in handling content. Typically, Wikipedia’s “neutrality principle” is thought to mean “secular principle” (the reference to “major encyclopedias of philosophy” amounts to the same since the modern graduate world is dominated by secular philosophers). Wikipedia is maverick in a sense that it wants “all significant views that have been published by reliable sources”, i.e. Wikipedia is in favor of multiple views and these include Thomist views, unless Wikipedia sustains a systemic anti-Catholic bias, which it does not, and avoids doing.
I have given proof above that the Thomist view is significant (among others: its google worth and the universities named after Thomas). The placing of Thomist view is consistent I repeat with the rest of the article. I believe it is now up to those defending the “countless other published philosophers who are correspondence theorists as regards their philosophy of truth” to write down their names and prove their significance as philosophers. If they are as prominent as all the Thomists put together then they should have the same prominence as the Thomists. (For your information this interpretation on the meaning of neutrality as applied to philosophical articles was the consensus after a long discussion at Talk:Agnosticism with User:Masterpiece2000, User:Ds13, User:Lafem, User:JimWae, etc.)
As another compromise, in view of the point that Aquinas followed Avicenna in important respects, I am willing to put the term “Moslem and Christian philosophers, especially Thomists”.
Still, I firmly believe my points (a) and (b) above are quite strong and have not been disputed until now, and these in fact show that undue weight has been given to criticisms of correspondence theory. Lastly, let me reiterate the need to show proof on the significance of other correspondence theories: a proof and significance that must be both strong enough to warrant a displacement of the Moslem and Christian philosophers, especially Thomists. Thanks, Kenosis, for this nice continuing discussion. Marax ( talk) 04:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
.
Please do not remove the NPOV tag until all issues are resolved.
Marax is correct -- neutrality means inclusiveness of all major POVs. Given that St. Thomas Aquinas and his followers did not invent correspondence does not preclude the fact that they have developed the theory into a serious system. Their major POV should be included in order that neutrality exists in treating correspondence theory. Other philosophers mentioned in other theories were neither their inventors. Walter Ching ( talk) 03:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think a clearer distinction should be made between truth and fact as the two (at least in a metaphysical/philosophical sense) don't always go hand in hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.60.27 ( talk) 20:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I think some writers make a distinction according to which a "fact" is something actively constructed, rather than just true because it's true. Etymologically a "fact" is something that has been "made" or "done" (factum). This distinction may be more felt in neo-Latin languages than in English.
The other point is that a fact, in some contexts, doesn't even have to be true. It's reasonably idiomatic English to say that someone's facts are wrong, rather than that they aren't facts at all.
Whether either of these distinctions is worthy of being treated here is unclear to me. I'd want to see some solid sources before the point were even touched in the article. -- Trovatore ( talk) 21:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should not assume that the terms are synonymous/used synonymously. If any authors argue that fact and truth are synonmymous then they should be cited (none spring to my mind). It is not satisfactory to rely on common usage or ordinary dictionairies since the terms are made use of in philosophy and logic in ways which may differ significantly from common usage. This would make an interesting article/paragragraph and the matter should not be treated glibly, lesr we lead the reader astray. I do not know of any generally accepted synonimty between the two. I am not convinced that Truth tables and truth-value would sound "deeper" than fact-tables/fact value. I don't think depth has anything to do with it--Philogo 12:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Example usages: In his intro to Wittgensteins's TLP Russell writes:
The world consists of facts: facts cannot strictly speaking be defined, but we can explain what we mean by saying that facts are what makes propositions true, or false.
Thus distinguishing facts and truths (a "proposition" expresses a truth if it is true and theya re made thuis by facts.--Philogo 13:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Wittgenstein himself (TLP) uses fact and truth as technical terms (or theses English words are used to transalte his technical terms):
The world is everything that is the case.
________________________________________
1.1
The world is the totality of facts, not of things.
1.2
The world divides into facts.
The world is everything that is the case.
________________________________________
4.0
4.1
A proposition presents the existence and non-existence of atomic facts.
4.2
The sense of a proposition is its agreement and disagreement with the possibilities of the existence and non-existence of the atomic facts.
4.3
The truth-possibilities of the elementary propositions mean the possibilities of the existence and non-existence of the atomic facts.
--Philogo 13:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok I'll admit I'm no philosophy but any of you heard of Lying With Facts? Take for example-Someone decides to form a survey to find out who will win an upcoming presidential election. He goes to several different locations across the country and ask 100 different people in each location whether they will vote for candidate A or B. All collecting all the data (or, if you will, FACTS) he finds that 65% of the people he's surveyed will vote for candidate A. He now therefore believes Candidate A will win the election. However as it turns out it is Candidate B that wins the election, despite whats his FACTS showed. Therefore, while the man had collected FACTS, they had NOT shown the TRUTH; that candidate B would win the election. There fore in this case, THE FACTS WERE NOT TRUE. This is just my theory, and since as I said before I'm not a Philosopher/Metaphysicist, but that's my reason for believe Fact and Truth are not always the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.60.27 ( talk) 23:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Distinguisher = impact: The nature of truth is change. A fact like 'earth is not flat' has no impact on modern world people and it does not have the property of truth therefore. As far as I understand the concept of truth originates from religion. It is related to information content in the sense that is describes the capacity of teaching, for instance, my capability of telling and explaining you the truth, in such beautiful way that you do not reject it, but instead believe in what I say. As no-one can really prove that this particular piece of text of mine has had an ineradicable effect on someone's life, might explain you the relativity of the truth, namely, truth is a personal experience of an individual. -- 192.100.124.219 ( talk) 08:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC) Martti R.
Facts, in themselves, cannot be true or false. They are just facts. So in real life, 'facts' and 'Truth' are in seperate domains. For example, what a magician shows to his audience are facts but the true and complete story of these facts have to be found elsewhere and not on the show stage. Another example, lately what we see on our TV screens are facts but, as most of us know, good engineers/programmers can let us see even dead people moving, talking and perhaps singing anything and in ways that these scientists may like. And when an event/accident is called 'natural', an ordinary observer has to believe it so, since many others have also decided to do the same (as a religious belief is based on the majority). Therefore, the best way to deceive the masses in a region or the world is by planning/creating some so called 'natural' facts since most people around the world are proud to say: "We believe what we see and hear only"... while I don't and you know why, now. MKAKJBF ( talk) 09:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, "fact" simply means "true proposition." So naturally fact would not be synonymous with truth because truth is a property of some propositions, whereas a fact is a species of proposition where truth is the differentia . Likewise, it's meaningless to talk about "true facts" (or worse, "false facts") because "true" is necessarily contained within "fact"--saying "true fact" amounts to "true true proposition." T of Locri ( talk) 12:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Kenosis made revisions that seem to me to be completely wrong.
He said that Hegel's definition of truth was not the polar opposite of Schopenhauer's. As the article states "For Schopenhauer, a judgment is a combination or separation of two or more concepts. If a judgment is to be an expression of knowledge, it must have a sufficient reason or ground by which the judgment could be called true. Truth is the reference of a judgment to something different from itself which is it sufficient reason (ground)." Then, the article quotes Hegel in saying: "…the manner of stating a proposition, of bringing forward grounds (reasons) for it, and likewise of refuting its opposite through grounds (reasons), is not the form in which truth can appear" Schopenhauer said that truth is shown when a ground or reason for a judgment is stated. Hegel said that truth is not shown when a ground or reason for a judgment is stated. Therefore, the assertions of the two philosophers are polar opposites. One uses "is." The other uses "is not."
Kenosis then claimed that the examples for Schopenhauer's transcendental and metalogical truths are incorrect. (1) Schopenhauer wrote that a judgment has transcendental truth when it is based on the forms of intuitive, empirical knowledge. These forms are space, time, and causality. An example from pure mathematics is "two straight lines do not enclose a space." (Schopenhauer, himself, used this example in § 32 of his book On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason.) This judgment is based solely on the form of pure, geometrical space and therefore has transcendental truth. An example from pure science is "matter cannot be created or destroyed." (Schopenhauer, himself, also used this example in § 32 of his book On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason.) This judgment is based solely on the form of causality and therefore has transcendental truth. The law of causality requires a permanent matter whose forms can be changed in a succession of causes. (2) Schopenhauer wrote that a judgment has metalogical truth when it is based on the forms of thought. These four forms are: "a is a"; "a is not not–a"; "a is either a or not–a"; and "if a then b." An example of a true judgment based on the form "a is a" is "a circle is a circle." An example of a true judgment based on the form "a is not not–a" is "a circle is not a square."
Kenosis, do you agree with the above? If so, then you were wrong to edit the article in the way that you edited it. If you disagree, then how and why do you disagree? (You should note that Schopenhauer used two of the examples that you said were not correct examples. Have you read the book?) Lestrade ( talk) 21:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)Lestrade
There is no real reason to include paintings just because their name contains the title of the article. It would seem that those pictures were tacked just to have pictures in the article. Please reconsider the usefulness of those images. Hello, My Name Is SithMAN8 ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Referring to my recent post about how to distinguish between the words truth and fact, The nature of truth is change, I would claim that a commonly agreeable definition for the word truth is possible. Considering the following as the first draft, what would be the correct forum to discuss the topic?
Apart from the various theories and claims about truth, the word truth is generally being used in context with forcefulness and change, purpose. Facts and true statements, close counterparts for the word truth, tend to avoid the said future related aspect as the future is characterized by uncertainty. As science tries to minimize uncertainties about topics studied, the word truth is generally not present in the scientific publications unless the truth itself is being considered. For instance, the concept of scientific truth is highly questionable and probably has its origins in religious debate, just as the word truth has the etymology that is closely related to words such as belief. The word truth is also adopted into mathematics and logic, in terms such as truth tables, obviously giving way to 'true' becoming misinterpreted as 'truth' the opposite for which would be lie instead of false. As the future aspect in relation with truth, it can be noticed that false is quite neutral term while as a lie has consequences.
-- Marttir ( talk) 00:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
You misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia, which is not to call for or promote research -- that is done mostly in universities and 'think tanks' -- but to report what researchers have published. A newspaper (in theory) should not try to make the news, only report the news. Similarly, an encyclopedia compiles what is known, but does not promote new discoveries.
Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
It took a long and bitter fight to get the philosophers working on this page to agree that truth had anything at all to do with reality, even in everyday usage. The current introduction is a compromise. Rick Norwood ( talk) 16:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
From an individual perspective, a practical definition of 'Truth' may be said as: "Truth is the set of all useful coherent ideas/theories based on ONE logical system". For example, I didn't expect to see what I may call 'god' to discover useful theories based on it, for my life. As I also didn't ask to see/touch the 'Geometrical Dot' exactly as it is defined at school, before I took advantage of any applied ideas in Gemotry based on this dot and which cannot exist other than in my mind in the least. I may add that one of the obvious results of the new definition of 'Truth' is that as long one cannot trust fully his own developed logical reasoning, he has no way but to follow 'by faith' some other's truth. In that respect, I may call myself "an individual christian by reason, not faith" since, to my big surprise, the hints in Jesus sayings were able to find their place in my 'logical' Truth. MKAKJBF ( talk) 11:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
That editors who contribute to and watch this article check out this Article for Deletion nomination and comment. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Contrary to the impression given in much of the lede, most of this aricle is an account of the concept of truth in philosophy in particular logic. It would be better, I suggest, to reflect this in the title by renaming the article Truth(philosophy). The article Truth(diambiguation) might then be renamed just Truth, in accordance with Wilki policy as I understand it. Alternative views of truth could then be freely expressed in other articles of different names, perhaps Truth(artistic), Truth(theology) and such like. The disambiguation article Truth would then provide appropriate links directing the reader to the particular sort of truth he or she is seeking. Truth in English is not restricted to the use of the term in philosophy. Philosophy should not hog the whole Truth dish, any more than Physics should hog Gravity, or Mathematics Equality or Music Harmony -- Philogo ( talk) 21:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I strongly agree that Philogo should not rename articles unilaterally and without discussion. Please restore this article to its original name and if you want to press for a new name, discuss that here. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree that page name should not be renamed, before the project that is. All people here have relevant points about the topic, just as I do. Moreover, taking a look at the long history of the talk before the page 'finalized' should convince anyone that there is no real consensus about the content. I would propose that this discussion would continue in some place relevant for Wiki projects. Could you Philogo include a relevant link for the purpose, please. -- Marttir ( talk) 12:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
The word "calculus" is used with other meanings. But the usual meaning is so far and away the most common meaning that a search on calculus takes the reader directly to the article. Similarly, a person searching on truth is far more likely to want this article than a disambuation page. Rick Norwood ( talk) 13:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess this type of suggestion will keep on coming since there is a tendency in this article to have a bias for professional philosophers. The German version does not seem to have this bias: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahrheit. The Spanish and Italian versions do not also seem to have a disproportionate number of philosophers in their coverage.
Perhaps a starting point is to rename section titles, e.g. to Notable thinkers and scholars rather than Notable philosophers. The lede refers to scholars and so it seems appropriate to follow the lede. Marax ( talk) 08:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Philogo that what the lede promises, the article underdelivers. However, I don't think that the bias towards philosophy is bad: once you start wondering about truth, your thoughts will turn philosophical, and the article does cover names such as Aquinas and Fromm. I do think that the lede advertises what is means to be truthful as a person, and then the article is only interested in what it is for a proposition to be truthful. The article would benefit from this being fixed. — Charles Stewart (talk) 09:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding the opening words of this article skin-creeping?-- Philogo ( talk) 01:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false. 3 a fact or belief that is accepted as true.
but this article of course is an encylopedia not a dictionary entry. -- Philogo ( talk) 13:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I would suppose that the language about the Mea... is correct, the content however is questionable. Where is the Wiki-Philosophy project to revisit the article page? Linguistically, the opposite of Truth is Lie. True and false are just statements, whileas Truth and Lie are manifestated by their consequences. If there is no verifiable change to be used as a reference, one should not really speak about the truth about something. The truth about word truth is that the related change is taking place, right here, right now, but I still would like to see the project, to carve out the other relevant meanings! Obviously, word truth has been misunderstood and misused just as often as someone has been called a liar instead of just a fool. Mathematical 'truth' tables for instance are like thin air without proper applications, and the truth about 'truth tables' might be that binary logic is the most simple one. Wouldn't the existing computers speak for this? In the advent of artificial intellect, it is best to keep it simple, philosophy also, namely, it should help man and not mislead him/her to tasks of linearizing endless loops. Meaning of life? What the ... philosophy topic is that? Can't they distinquish between religion and philosophy? Maybe that should be the first task about the word Truth also. My claim is, why should any strange concept should be allowed to steal the true meaning of a common word, that really has nothing complex about it? -- Marttir ( talk) 23:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
The notion of truth of critical rationalists should be also presented (as a starting point look at: [ [4]]). -- Curiosity F ( talk) 09:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)Curiosity_F
To editor 96.60.28.170... To be honest, you raise a good point; however, it is my opinion that any children who may see these images of classic paintings will not only be enriched by them, but also they will probably not see the "nasty" side that some adults might see. When I was a child, I saw great beauty is such works of art. And I also saw great beauty in a Van Gogh, or a Rembrandt or any number of works by great artists. Sculptures of David, Venus de Milo and other nude or scantily clad subjects are a part of this world. And I might add they are some of the better parts of this world.
Since this is an article about "Truth", I would ask you to honestly state your real concerns here. Are you worried that some child will see these nudes and they will cause him to become a pervert? Is it your concern that children will be permanently marred by being exposed to nudity? Children, as you may know, have very short attention spans. They revel in one fascinating thing after another, rarely staying with one thing for any length of time. In any case, it is a violation of Wikipedia's
Neutral point of view policy, as well as the
content preservation policy to remove works of art such as these for no reason other than it is one person's point of view that the nudes should not be viewed by children. If these images are offensive to you, then by all means use your mouse quickly and click on another article. There are several other articles related to Truth that can be found in the Navbars near the bottom of the article. Best of everything to you and yours!
—
.`^) Paine Ellsworth
diss`cuss (^`.
20:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, first of all, wikipedia is not censored, secondly, I'm pretty sure a child can't become a pervert or permanently marred by seeing some pictures of nude people not having sex. As you said, if you find these images offensive, then you have no obligation to look at them. Or, of course, you could use one of many options to view wikipedia without images. Zer0n888 ( talk) 21:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding
this edit in which
User:Lawyeditor reinserted her/his own section on "Truth as a somebody", I'm reverting it.
..... Here's why. Some time ago there was a section on "Truth in religion" in the article, and it turned out to be a pain in the neck to maintain in keeping with Wikipedia policy, notably
WP:NPOV,
WP:WEIGHT and
WP:NOR. I'd been an advocate of that brief section linked to a main article which became [[Truth {religious)]]. Ultimately, as various editors would throw various religious views, and due to the complete conceptual and editorial mess it had repeatedly become despite efforts by multiple editors to keep it reasonably organized and reasonably in keeping with
WP:Policies and guidelines, the section was removed without protest by me.
..... Here's just a sampling of additional assertions, found in various
WP:RSs, regarding persons other than Jesus who have been asserted to be "Truth as a somebody" (or as the section was first proposed by Lawyeditor, "Truth as not a something"):
Aletheia is, in Greek mythology, the truth-- that is, truth as a somebody-- not just someone known for telling the truth, but who is the truth personified. In Roman mythology
Veritas is not only the truth, but is truth, that is, truth as a somebody. Then there's
Apollo, the God of sun, truth and healing. Shall other "gods who are personifications of truth" now be included? Or are we only referring to the human side of Jesus as "the way, the truth, and the life" as proposed by Lawyeditor? Here's an ancient Egyptian perspective: "In a hymn to
Amon-Re, the creator and sustainer of the world, Ma’at equates with truth [emphasis mine: read that as "Ma'at is the truth"]: Thy Mother is Truth, O Amon!" (Cite to: Erik Hornung, Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt, Cornell University Press, 1982, p74).
..... And another word or two about Jesus, who is, according to John 1:1,14, "is the Word", and of course in John 14:6, "the way, the truth, and the life". In Revelation 3:14, Jesus is said to have called himself the "Amen, the Faithful and True Witness." In
Zoroastrian theology, the angel
Rashnu, who presides at the "ordeal court", is truth (
[5]), another truth-as-somebody. Care to discuss
Muslim theology? Here's a bit of
Islamic prophecy: "All glory will come after his advent. He will be the personification of Truth and Uprightness, as if
Allah had descended from the Heaven." (Tazkira, Page 691)-- yet another truth-as-somebody.
..... Here's a slightly more sweeping assertion from Indian theology: "Truthfulness through the Mother
Shiva: [Shiva] said Man has never lied so much as today. To know Her is to be Truthful. To live in Her is to become a personification of Truth." (from Foundations of Indian Spirituality
[6]) In other words, you too, if you live in Shiva, can be truth-as-a-somebody. Clealightvideos.net offers several somebodies from an
interfaith standpoint: "... visualize brilliant white light emerging from the personification of truth: The
Buddha,
Padmasambhava,
Jesus, or
God." Here's another specific truth-as-somebody: "
Baghwan
Sri Sathya Sai Baba, being a personification of Truth and Love is no exception. In some way or the other, those opposed to the message of Truth try to character assassinate or simply crucify the messengers. Such is their level of opposition to the Truth. They just can't handle it with their closed hearts and minds."
..... And, if the assertion is that truth is a somebody, in each case here a particular somebody, according to WP policy there need be some room for counterarguments too. Here's just one of countless such arguments, by Werner Wollshleger: "If someone claims to be the [sole] personification of truth, it makes all others liars. ... Untruth or lies can be told in a manifold way; the truth on the other hand stands all alone, and irrefutable." There are numerous additional such counterarguments from notable
WP:RSs.
Richard Dawkins'
The God Delusion, for example, has a few things to say about Jesus as a personification of truth (or if you prefer, as the truth) as do other notable writers and scholars. And I could go on here with more, though I would hope this is an adequate sample of how tangled the issue of truth-as-a-somebody is (in addition to how already complex the issue of
Truth already is without personifying the concept onto particular persons or gods, or both).
..... IMO, according to WP policies and guidelines, there is no sustainable, justifiable place in this article for sections such as "Truth as a somebody" that are written essentially as a sermon emphasizing the slant of one Roman Catholic evangelist, or for that matter a commonly but not universally held stance in Christianity.
User:Lawyeditor's recently inserted section started
here, with the section title "View of truth as not a something", reverted
here, then replaced by Lawyeditor
here with a new section title "View of truth as somebody", and removed again
here and replaced again by Lawyeditor again
here. According to this proposed section by Lawyeditor, "Expressing the serious view of
Christians, especially the
Catholic Church, based on reason and revelation, Father
John Corapi repeatedly states and is frequently quoted as stating (with minor variations in wording) that "The Truth is not a something. It is a Somebody. And His Name is
Jesus Christ.”
..... As I hope I've made sufficently plain, this material based on religious scripture about who "The truth" is, or who "is the Personification of Truth", etc., is not appropriate for this article. To date at least, this article is about what truth is as a quality capable of description about its rationally arguable qualitative characteristics by notable writers and philosophers (some religious ones already included), but not about personalities claimed to be "the truth", whether religious or not. ...
Kenosis (
talk)
02:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
It is apparent that the only practical way to combat the anti-Catholic bigotry of Kenosis is to create a separate article on Truth As Somebody. Lawyeditor ( talk) 02:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
A month ago there were sections on Badiou and Osho. I found these useful and would like to put them back. Why has somebody removed them? (They are useful because they are pointers to and brief explanations of other approaches to truth. That someone may not like these approaches or understand them, is for me no reason for not mentioning them since they exists as philosophies of truth) Harx ( talk) 11:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
'The truth about the Truth is the Truth'. In other words the truth is independent of us and it describes itself without our input. All we can do is to observe it being a part of it. The various truths describing the Truth have the same organizations as the Truth. Each truth within the plurality of truths of the description has its own plurality of truths describing it. With incease in the plurality of the truths of the description the truths grow less and less important while the Truth, which is the synthesis of the description,beomes more and more perfect. The observer of the plurality of truths describing the Truth does not have to observe all the truths of the description. He can observe only some of them. He can also use truths which do not belong to the description. The Truth will then be partial or imperfect. A truth can be accepted by the observer through 'belief' as one static unit, in which case the change is quantitative or through description which is a continuous-quantitative change within the plurality of the truths of the description. Every truth is the duality of a 'body and soul', which means the material and the immaterial parts. 'Body' of the truth is in the material space time and it interacts with us through senses. 'Soul' is in the mind, located in the immaterial world and it is a reflection of the body. A truth is a 'fact' when 'body and soul' as material-immaterial duality, have identical organizations. The truth 'fact' cannot be communicated to another observer even though it can be observed by both of them. The truth can be also observed indirectly, in which case 'body' of the observed truth A is substituted by the body of an independent truth B acting as a 'symbol'. The 'body and soul' of the observed truth A are then immaterial and the duality is the 'meaning' of the 'symbol'. This way the observer interacts with the truth A through an intermediary of the independen truth B connected to the observed truth A by illogicality. This method of observation allows communiction of truths to other observers who use the same symbols. It also allows the observer to see the truths in only the immaterial space time, without using his material senses. The Truth is perfect when the observer knows all the truths describing it. The Truth and the reality of the observer are then self sufficient and static. Description of the perfect Truth contains also the contradictory truths such as 'yes' and at the same time 'no'. Both contradictory truths, in the duality, are correct. For example the statement that the Universe had a beginning and the negation that it did not because it is eternal, are both correct. Every duality is one Whole when the duality is seen from the outside. KK ( 92.29.77.117 ( talk) 13:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC))
It strikes me as a bit odd (if not POV) that so many of the philosophers listed in "Modern Age" section represent some form of relativism. This gives the impression that anti-realism is dominant among contemporary thinkers, yet this is anything but the... truth. I mean, where are Frege and Russell? Where is Dummett? Or Searle? Or Lowe? How does someone like Nishida crowd out the whole of the Analytic school? T of Locri ( talk) 11:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
There needs to be a section on David Hume.-- Thinking thinker ( talk) 17:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The wish of truth is would change the world surrounds us, the world is the same time that we live in, the live is as the same present that we are rushing to, the present is our consciousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.103.184.169 ( talk) 23:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
I am a Taiwanese and did not know the TRUTH until I was 50 years old. I worshiped idols in Taiwan follow the tradition which said many gods came down this world. Now I am sure that only Jesus Christ came down this world is true story of God shown to human being in flesh. God is everybody's spiritual Father. He showed His Way in the Gospel story. He is our Father and Lord. Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Jn 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Mt 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mk 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Lk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Jn 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Jn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Rev 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name(Jesus).
Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Jn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God(Bible) came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mk 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.(so that God is everyone's Father.) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.25.6.9 (
talk)
05:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Every truth is the duality of a symbol and the meaning of that symbol. The symbol defines a ‘sphere’ which contains a limited plurality of truths describing that which is being symbolized. Symbol is not a part of the description, it is ‘outside’ of the sphere and it can be any truth, independent of the description of the truth, but interacting with it. For example the symbol ‘tiger’ selects and limits for the observer a group of truths such as ‘four legged animal, striped and similar to a cat’. This describes the animal but not the symbol ‘tiger’ nor any of the other symbols in the description such as ‘leg’, ‘stripe’ and so on. Each symbol has its own group of truths describing it. A symbol acts as the ‘name’ of the sphere and the synthesis of the limited group of the truths of the description. The sum of the meanings of the symbols used in the description is the ‘meaning’ of the symbol of the observed truth. The meaning cannot be used for communication between observers because meanings are temporal, they are in the mind within the immaterial space time and they do not affect senses of the observer. There is no direct communication between minds. Only by using symbols, acting on the observer’s senses, enables observers to communicate among themselves. Each truth, used in the description of something observed, acts through its symbols, on the senses of the observer while meaning of each symbol acts on the mind. Symbol is a spatial organization while meaning is temporal. Meaning represents difference arising from change from one meaning of the description of the observed unit to another meaning. This is manifested as the organization of the unit. Therefore each truth is the duality of space time. Symbols, being spatial, can be material or immaterial while meanings, being temporal, are always immaterial. Organization of the observed truth represents the laws of nature manifested as the logical relationships of the properties of each truth of the description of the observed truth. Observer of the limited plurality of the truths of the description can either observe the truths in their static state or he can motivate them and cause interactions which transform existence of the truths to non existence and the other way round, using the observer’s memory. Alternatively the interactions can create for the observer entirely new truths. KK ( 78.146.57.200 ( talk) 13:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
An anonymous editor from 90.58.xxx.yyy has made several edits lately. Here is a diff. Truth is not a monolithic ideal— the lead paragraph now covers various meanings appropriately, in my opinion. Comment? __ Just plain Bill ( talk) 01:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
The current lede states:
The first issue is whether the first sentence is a run-on, or whether it is close enough to a run-on to be confusing to read. The substance of what it says is not in dispute. The second issue is whether or not the introductory phrase "truth can have a variety of meanings" constitutes a vague way of introducing a concept - vague writing which can be replaced with more definitive writing. The fact that there are different meanings is not in dispute. The third issue is whether the phrase "which can correspondingly take logical, factual, or ethical meanings" applies more to the positive concept "truth" than to its inverse "falsehood," such that the above language might be best used to clarify the prime concept. Proposed:
- Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 21:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Truth may refer to:
- Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 02:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Truth may refer to:
which have the:
of being:
That MW dicdef covers most of these. - Stevertigo ( t | log | c) 02:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Plain and simple, Jesus claimed to be the truth. If you found Him, you found the truth; if you knew Him, you knew the truth.
No other thinker has dared to be as bold or as innovative, yet here He does not receive a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.115.54 ( talk) 14:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Ok... and the Bible is not a reliable source? Or you need a doctorate in theology? Or those and something else? It's a little flaky to suggest that anyone could call themselves the truth, no one did since the beginning of creation to His time and no one has since. You do realize that thousands of witnesses went to their death believing what He said, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.115.54 ( talk) 17:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Philogo ( talk) 01:34, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
There was some research published in 2010, 'The LIGHT; The Rainbow of Truths - The Jesus Christ Code", that may add new meanings to the message of Jesus Christ, showing the differences between truth, truths and THE TRUTH.
24.79.147.13 ( talk) 14:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
The lede says "Truth can have a variety of meanings"; does it mean to say "Truth has a variety of meanings" or something different? Philogo ( talk) 20:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
not only did Jesus claim to be the truth or the bible in flesh but the bible states it is impossible for God to lie in the book of titus. jesus had many other names also http://www.todaystruthwriter.com/2010/07/08/undercover-christian-do-you-know-him-today.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Todaystruthwriter ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
If the truth is truly spoken... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.70.98 ( talk) 17:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm speechless...
64.134.242.79 ( talk) 00:15, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
The truth is that which exists, as a unit, in the consciousness of the observer. Each truth has personal characteristics defined by other truths and it is logically connected to other, independent truths outside. Truths are experienced by the ‘self’ in the immaterial space time. Every truth is the duality of a symbol and its meaning. The duality is remembered in the memory. In future when a symbol enters memory it combines with identical symbol from the past. This brings into the consciousness of the observer the truth. There are three different groups of truths. They are ‘concrete’ truth, ‘abstract’ truth and ‘emotions'. ‘Concrete’ truth is that which has spatial magnitude containing organized, by the laws of nature, motivation into a limited plurality of parts of the whole truth, each part a separate and different truth. Because of the spatial limitation, ‘concrete’ truth can be copied in the material space time and it can be observed in static or in dynamic state. ‘Abstract’ truth has no spatial limitation and it has no magnitude. For this reason abstract truth cannot be copied in the material world and it cannot interact with either material or immaterial senses. ‘Abstract’ truth is not a spatial organization, but temporal and it cannot form a unit. Observer experiences ‘abstract’ truth as static state of unlimited plurality of identical truths. Emotions cannot be observed because they are motivation. The duality of the truth, with the emotion which it causes, is remembered. In future when the same or similar truth enters memory it combines through identity with the truth already in the memory. The emotion related to the truths is repeated. The type of emotion depends on the external truth which created the emotion in the past. As motivation emotion is the duality of contradictory actions such as positive-negative, pleasant-unpleasant and so on. Emotions are difficult to control because they block reasoning. KK ( 178.182.5.124 ( talk) 11:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC))
Do the semi-pornographic Victorian nudes add anything to this article? 81.135.61.249 ( talk) 19:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
An account of J.C.C. McKinsey's definition of truth in Synthese, vol. 7, 1948-9, pp 428 - 433 should be added, if not here then to some other article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.1.146 ( talk) 12:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Can we switch truth and reality in the first sentence? It creates an endless loop while trying to navigate to philosophy by clicking the first link on any Wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.181.127 ( talk) 00:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding recent edits to this page. The thread is " Users playing "Get to Philosophy" game to the detriment of Wikipedia". Comments are welcome. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The "philosophy game" stuff is nonsense, of course, but it is at least interesting that the first link in truth is to fact and vice versa. The lead section of fact seems to me, admittedly a non-expert, as very very weak. I have started two new sections in talk:fact about this, and would be particularly interested in soliciting comment at talk:fact#Fact vs truth. -- Trovatore ( talk) 02:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Can we reverse the "reality" and "fact" links so that the "Philosophy Game" still works? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kp1197 ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
"It does damage to the Wikipedia project to mess around with article content in order to suit some arbitrary rule. " -- It also does damage to the project to *not* follow some arbitrary rule! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kp1197 (
talk •
contribs)
21:02, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Philosophy, from philo-sophia - the love of knowledge, encompasses all things. Therefore, it was suitable that by following the first link in every Wiki article inevitably brought one to the page on philosophy. However, a recent update has created a feedback loop, linking truth to fact, and fact to truth. This issue can be resolved without compromising the integrity of the article by switching the words "fact" and "reality" in the first sentence so that it is written as: "Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with reality or fact."
67.204.198.33 ( talk) 01:46, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Because of the lack of etymology of the term truth, the article confuses truth with at least all philosophical terms. In many cases there are other terms we can use instead of the term truth but because we have not clarify in our minds etymologically what truth is, we confuse it with all these philosophical terms.Nestanaios 15:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nestanaios ( talk • contribs)
Why is there no section on Alain Badiou among the modern philosophers? Not only is he one of the most important philosophers of the post-war period, but his theory of truth as fidelity-to-the-event has been crucial in helping continental philosophy escape the empty relativism of the postmoderns. I suggest a distillation of the second chapter of Infinite Thought would make a good start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.209.86 ( talk) 19:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
The editor who flagged the topic of this article as "controversial" must have a weird sense of humor or is completely unaware of the implications for today's public discourse. 84.49.143.21 ( talk) 19:14, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
"God is triune ..." ... А может быть двуистин? Maybe dvuistin? андроид 91.205.25.30 ( talk) 14:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
The second para of the article (tagged) is unintelligible. Redheylin ( talk) 02:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
The words "reality" and "truth" need to be switch if the wikipedia philosophy easter egg (that clicking on the first blue word not in parenthesis/italicized etc. will always lead to the Philosophy page). 6/07/12 108.48.52.165 ( talk) 06:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I reverted a couple of good-faith edits that want to begin with philosophy. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Do we really need to start out by saying that "Truth has a variety of meanings..." Lots of words have a variety of meanings, and the article mentions several further down the page.
While the claim that "truth" is commonly used to mean "constancy or sincerity" has one reference, I would like to see that claim either dropped (unless another reference can be found) or at least moved further down the page. Do we say a person is telling the truth if he lies constantly? Do we say a person is telling the truth if he is sincerely mistaken? It doesn't seem to me that this usage, even though preferred by Merriam-Webster, is really a common usage. Is there any chance that the "archaic" note on Merriam-Webster definition 1a is also intended to apply to 1b? I know we have to rely on sources, but we can use a little common sense when sources disagree, and I don't know of any other dictionary that makes the claim that "constancy or sincerity" are common meanings of "truth".
I would like the first sentence to say, "Truth is most often used to mean in accord with fact or reality [1] or fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal." [1]
Comments?
Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I think Rick's proposal is fine, a simpler definition is best, unusual or archaic definitions can be discovered by the reader if interested.
Since most of the sources in the article are philosophers, I think we should include a more significant reference to philosophy. But I accept RIck's point that the article shouldn't start with philosophy, my POV unfortunately! TonyClarke ( talk) 13:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Many human activities, including science, law, and everyday life, depend upon the concept of truth, often as an undiscussed assumption.
I'm not sure what sources say that truth is "an undiscussed assumption". Seems frequently discussed to me. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
To my mind the Ratzinger section is very much displaced and rather belongs under "trivia". First of all - even if it was the case that Ratzinger had a view about truth in the sense that he explained what truth is (which might be the case and I just haven't found it yet)- the current text about Ratzinger's "view" does not at all contain such an explanation or a significant part of it. The only information given in that direction is that truth is the same as love. But this is hardly comprehensible because there is not even the slightest hint about how this could be the case or what could be meant by that. Furthermore, even if the section did actually contain this relevant information, Ratzinger's view - in spite of him being a notable person - is not a notable view. The current paragraphs about Ratzinger's collection of wisdom about truth seems to be a head over heels attempt to get Ratzinger's teachings in this article by all means. I suggest it is either deleted or it is both completed and evidence given why not only the person behind the view but also the view itself is notable. 132.199.193.96 ( talk) 16:56, 27 September 2012 (UTC) andi
The book leaving truth, by Keith Sewell, published March 22, 2012 presents an important point of view that I would like to see integrated into this article. I recently wrote a review of the book available at: http://www.librarything.com/work/13133759/reviews Because the existing article is extensive and complex, I will leave it to others to integrate these ideas. If, however, you would like me to take the lead on this please let me know. Thanks, -- Lbeaumont ( talk) 20:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Instead of all articles leading to philosophy, they all lead to truth. That's all that's happened. There will always be some page that all links eventually get you to, whether or not it's philosophy. I figured that some point in the track would change at some point, and philosophy would no longer be the end. --Gioku talk user 20:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, this has been changed back to philosophy. I like it better as philosophy anyway.-- Zer0n888 ( talk) 01:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Try Wiki Orality and Oral traditions--compare with today's philosophical understandings---a more direct way to Truth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.248.113.218 ( talk) 19:09, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Orality is truth, <ref>wiki and oral traditions</ref> arnlodg--- more sources to come if talk occures — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnlodg ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 20 May 2013
This effort is a side step around the origins of philosophy, in that, Wikipedia's forums about Orality and Oral traditions provide bases necessary for understanding "practice as truth". which is not, in any understandable way, provided at the forum for Truth; citing Socrates life is not helpful because academia only seems to recognize Truth now through theory, Orality is truth in practice not truth in theory; finally this effort is bold to invigorate practice through the oral tradition of "writing".
[1]
172.248.113.218 (
talk)
18:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)arnlodg
Truth Forum needs at least two main sections---Theory and Practice---(Orality is Practice)
If you have the time---Socrates talk, then for him was truth, through the practice of talk (Orality)) with Plato---our talk, now, is same (Orality) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
172.248.113.218 (
talk)
18:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
ok I give up, but---when we are here in the present moment citations are not needed ---that is what it was like for Socrates then and what it could be like for people today--- [2] 172.248.113.218 ( talk) 19:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)arnlodg,
I am a bit annoyed seeing an article on truth with pictures interspersed of various allegorical figures that do no make sense with respect to truth, an abstract term or concept. If you claim that truth equals to those representations or embodiments of the idea of truth otherwise explained in detail then you sell rubbish in popcorn cups. You would never find two people who would seriously consider allegories, symbols, etc. as a fact other than an artist's rendering of something that he himself has no idea of how to give a shape of.
As a general remark, why do you (Wikipedia as a whole) not see the difference between the verbs of introspection and the verbs of extrospection?
Genezistan ( talk) 04:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
If you know what abstract or abstraction mean, please do not hesitate to start an article on them Genezistan ( talk) 14:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
1. Abstract as defined in Wordnet: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=abstract&sub=Search+WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o8=1&o1=1&o7=&o5=&o9=&o6=&o3=&o4=&h= Meaning (gloss) - consider a concept without thinking of a specific example; consider abstractly or theoretically. 2. abstract in (upper) ontology SUMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFQRvyyv7Fs Terns and Concepts 18.30 It contrasts physical and abstract, but the distinction is not shown in the structure. The problem will take you to the explanation of three words: term, concept and referent. Are they properly explained in Wikipedia and are they cross-referenced? 3. In here: /info/en/?search=Concept#Abstract_objects Also: referent /info/en/?search=Referent
A load of vague crap. Should you not know how to define a term and a concept, use this http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/definitions.htm#part5.6 - with care Genezistan ( talk) 04:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
THE TRUE DEFINITION OF TRUTH
Very few people (less than 10%) understand the true definition of truth, and many people cannot handle the truth and twist the definition. Having been an engineer for many years, one cannot build skyscrapers or bridges without dealing with the real truth.
I think it is important to start with classic dictionary definitions of truth as provided below. If you have others, please use them, but there is only one truth. Unfortunately, many of the definitions under truth have nothing to do with the definition of truth.
From the American College Dictionary: Truth 1. that which is true; the true or actual facts of a case. 2. conformity with fact or reality: verity. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, or principle. 4. genuiness, reality, or actual existance.
From the Webster Dictionary: Truth 1. the body of real things events or facts. 2. the property of being in accord with fact or reality. 3. the state of being the case.
Scientific Definition: Truth 1. the actual state or position of things at a given time (truth may change with time). 2. truth may be fixed and directly observable, such as the words in a recorded document. 3. the actual truth is absolute; perceptions of truth may only be conceptual. 4. we may only be able to determine the truth within a perceived degree of accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by William Cave ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
The article starts by listing the primary theories of truth and ends with a list of philosophers and what they proposed. It would be useful to have each philosopher associated with a theory (or theories). For example, "Nietzsche can be regarded as a proponent of what are currently identified as pragmatist and coherence theories". This may be totally wrong, and I am using it just to illustrate the type of thing I am talking about. Someone who understands more about the subject that I do would have to make the contribution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.98.209 ( talk) 21:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I was searching for a specific quote about truth when I was pointed to the Spanish wiki entry for Truth. (Verdad [1]) A more perfect and pure wiki could not exist apparently. When I clicked on English, I guess I half expected a perfect or at least equivalent translation. I was pretty horrified at what I found. Truth is not subjective and yet, subjective is all I see on the English wiki. A wiki entry for Truth should not be placed in the hands of those who misuse their responsibility, overstep, side-step and knit pick at it until it has become utterly meaningless. [2]
Truth is not neutral, either. Chance is neutral. Truth is objective. It is not based on the wavering perceptions of human beings. If that is offensive or controversial, then that is what it has to be. It's not up to personal sentiment, interpretation, or perceptions of reality filtered by what we want to be true or not true. Truth is simply that which is.
Is it possible to simply translate Spanish Wiki Verdad for Truth? Quotes used and references cited aren't even the same. Not even close. Following the link to one of the author's biographies, and clicking "English" again, resulted in an even MORE dismal wiki page. The Spanish one is thriving with information, the other is nothing but a stripped down via bot generated page, even the picture was removed. Shouldn't there be more consistency between translations?
I'm very new and still learning the coding. I apologize and realize I'll be over-scrutinized for my newness and hard words. But truth is the exact opposite of that if information is suppressed and omitted by the de facto academic tyranny.
Quid est veritas?
Mahzarati (
talk)
07:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Arguably the Latin "Veritas" and the English "Truth" are not precisely the same concept as you note, but I doubt the translation idea would be a good idea even if this were not true. Interesting observations though. Kingshowman ( talk) 09:12, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm surprised that there is no mention of Frege, who devoted much of his philosophical writings to the concept of truth.
One might e.g. see him as a forerunner of Ramsay and redundancy theory (" Man kann ja geradezu sagen: "Der Gedanke, daß 5 eine Primzahl ist, ist wahr." Wenn man aber genauer zusieht, so bemerkt man, daß damit eigentlich nicht mehr gesagt ist als in dem einfachen Satz "5 ist eine Primzahl". ... "You can even say it explicitly: "The thought that 5 is a prime number is true." But if you take a closer look, you notice that actually no more is said by this than in the simple statement "5 is a prime number"." from "Sense and Reference"; there is a corresponding passage in "Der Gedanke", using violas as an example. Sry, my bad transl.); AFAIK he is a "redundan.." ... -cist? ...- tist? in that he held the concept of truth to be indefinable (Der Gedanke), as it would lead to either circularity or infinite regress.
AFAIK*2 he developed the concept of a truth value (S&R, p. 34), or, some of the tools of formal theories. And so on. Proper Fregeists will know more.
Not asking to have the article totally fregenized, but a brief mention, or even a section of his own (I mean, when you can have one on Schopenhauer...) would make the article more, as it were, true.
T
88.89.219.147 (
talk)
05:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
This page is just a magnet for the types of unconstructive edits that unconfirmed accounts bring to Wikipedia and make my job relevant. Is there an easy way to see if vandalism is above the 5% threshold defined? I mean, there is a THREAT posted on the edit page re: some sort of game. L3X1 ( talk) 01:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Why is this: Epistemic theories of truth not included under major theories of triuth? Linhart ( talk) 11:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Should perhaps be semi-protected here, in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.189.36.49 ( talk) 17:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
The section on this seems rather weak to me. By this I mean that the explanation could probably be clarified. Plus the citation is to a book, not on Marxism, but on Foucault. Are the quotes from this book; I’m not sure. I think we can do better! I think there are people out there who know about this stuff and could very easily fix it. Help! DouglasBell ( talk) 20:55, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello guys, it's written on truth page on Wikipedia : "However, logic does not deal with truth in the absolute sense, as for instance a metaphysician does". I think it's false because many of foundations of logic are axioms (three laws of thought). It's true everywhere and all the time. So, what's the difference between that and metaphysicians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vouivre ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Why is the term "It is said" used to present something as though it was fact?Also the term "It is thought".It is said by whom;it is thought by whom??We should guard against using these misleading terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawqeye ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
I've restored the the edit (revision 991138401) adding the section "truthmaker theory", which was undone (revision 991184735) by the user Snowded. I'm not sure that I agree with the justification that "we don't cut and paste like that". If this is not just a personal opinion but there is an explicit Wikipedia policy against it then it might be a good idea to cite it here. The article Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia suggests otherwise. The content in question is mostly taken from Truthmaker theory but carefully modified to fit into the context of theories of truth. Truthmaker theory is a prominent field in contemporary philosophy. This can be seen from the sources cited here and in the main article. This prominence should be reflected in the content of this article. Having one wiki-link in the "See also"-section doesn't do justice to this. Phlsph7 ( talk) 05:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I'll try to give a defense of my argument that the section on truthmaker theory should be included in the article correspondence theory. I find it a little difficult since you ( Snowded) have so far avoided to spell out your argument against it in detail. The gist I got form what you said is that you are not familiar with truthmaker theory and consider it as at best a marginal theory that is not directly relevant to the correspondence theory of truth. Please correct me if I misinterpreted you. I found some passages in tertiary sources that I think prove my point. Both draw the connection between correspondence theory and truthmaker theory in their lead-sections and spell it out further in the main text. Please have a look at:
I'm not sure that I want to spend more time and energy defending this edit. If you don't find these passages convincing then I'll accept your call. Phlsph7 ( talk) 05:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)