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Archive 1 |
I think my decision to move this page deserves some justification.
This article may be - indeed appears to be - good in terms of content: but if it is, it is good only with regard to the USA's legal systems. Much of the content is wrong in the context of trust law more directly based on the "English model", as it applies in England and Wales, the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Bermuda, Canada, (some of) the Caribbean, (some of) the Pacific Islands, Australia and New Zealand - as well as several civil law nations with statutory trusts laws.
This difficulty asserts itself from the very first sentence, where trusts are conceived as a branch of contract law.
I felt that any attempt to reconcile the two legal systems in one article was doomed to failure, and would only lead to understandable disputes with the existing authors. My solution is to move the existing Trusts (property) to Trust (Law) USA and to create the new page Trust (Law) non-USA (a title which might itself promote some debate, there) to deal with trusts in the English-model jurisdictions.
I will make the obvious amendments on Trust (disambiguation), and in the first sentence of this article. I do not intend to make any further amendment on this page. AndyJones 19:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a complete rewrite. Recently, an anon added a lot of information to the introduction of the article which needs to be incorporated into the remaining context of the article itself. The information does not seem to be copyvio, but should be checked nonetheless. I lack the knowledge on this subject to combine these sections effectively, but if someone else who has a bit more of an idea about this could, then that would be much appreciated. -- tomf688{ talk} 23:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe I am the anon (didn't know there was another way to do this!) and I couldn't agree more. All this information comes from nearly 30 years in the business. I am not an attorney and my intended audience is the educated layman who wants to learn the basics rather than get a law school board prep.
Would someone mind providing a cite or discussion re the possibility of creating a revocable testamentary trust? I am skeptical that this is possible but am willing to be educated.
gbroiles 09:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's your answer: the testator/settlor simply writes a clause into testamentary trust allowing one or more persons the right to withdraw all the assets at any time. I've seen this in Indiana documents at least twice. Such trusts are treated as grantor trusts for tax purposes even though they are testamentary. This brings up what should be an obvious point but is frequently missed: It makes not a whit of difference whether a trust was created inter vivos or by testatment. The administrator must still read the document and see what it says. One should be careful to not assume a testamentary trust is ipso facto irrevocable. Unfortunately, this assumption is made by many practitioners without reading the document. Indeed, most software (SEI for example) simiply assumes all trusts under will are irrevocable.
[note above comment from user at address 68.58.58.82 on 20 Feb. 2006]
Dear fellow editors: The following language:
was deleted. Again, the "practitioners" are generally correct, and the editor (at IP address 68.58.58.82) who inserted this language is, as a general proposition, incorrect. We need to use legal terminology correctly. A trust does not become "revocable" because a beneficiary attains a certain age, for example. A trust might "terminate" for that reason, but it would not be "revoked" for that reason.
The only way I can think of off hand that a trust could be "revoked" in this situation would be where the testator set up a trust for himself (for example, with someone else as trustee), say at age 21, with a provision that says that he himself could not revoke the trust until he reached, say, age 30. That's a highly unlikely scenario, and I don't think that's what my fellow editor intended. "Revocation" is one way to "terminate" a trust -- but "revocation" can be done only by the creator of the trust. Termination of a trust according to its terms, such as the age attainment of a beneficiary or some other contingency, is generally not considered a "revocation." Yours, Famspear 00:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: From a fiduciary tax perspective the ability to remove any or all funds at will makes the trust a grantor trust for tax purposes and all grantor trusts (as defined in fiduciary tax law) are revocable. Arguing that a testamentary trust can never be revoked, because the settlor has died, misses the practical point. It seems entirely defensible to call a testamentary trust that can be terminated at the will of a beneficiary a revocable trust. Indeed, practitioners (lawyers and trust officers) typically refer to such testamentary trusts as revocable. Isn't a revocable trust one that can be terminated at the will of a beneficiary?
Moving on: I find the following statement
"By definition, "revocation" can be done only by the testator...."
remarkable. This gets to the heart of the matter: Revocation is not a right exclusive to the settlor. It is a right retained in most but not all cases by the settlor, and granted in some cases to one or more other beneficiaries during or after the lifetime of the settlor. While a settlor is usually his own beneficiary (in the case of a full-service inter vivos trust created for money management and typical fiduciary services during lifetime), he is no different than any other beneficiary having the right to terminate a trust. If someone can terminate a trust, then the trust is revocable -- whether or not the settlor is alive and has retained that right. Fellow editor's "by definition" language simply doesn't fly in my 30 years experience. Try saying out loud with a straight face in the offices of any serious corporate fiduciary organization or law firm that a testamentary trust which happens to be a grantor trust for tax purposes is not thereby revocable and you will see what I'm talking about.
And, finally, I agree with fellow editor that a trust that is about to close due to required age attainment payouts need not change its name to "revocable". However, if a beneficiary due to age attainment or other reasons (such as satisfaction of a condition such as having a child) now has a right to pull out the assets and thus terminate the trust but nevertheless does not do so, a wise trust officer will do well to put the word "revocable" into the title. The reason: the trust has now become a grantor trust (a beneficiary has the right to take all the assets at any time) and all grantor trusts (for tax purposes) are ipso facto revocable. Again, revocability is not a function of the state of being of the settlor but rather of the rights of the beneficiaries.
Note: the right of a beneficiary to fire the trustee and substitute another does NOT make the trust revocable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.58.82 ( talk • contribs) .
Dear editor at IP 68.58.58.52: As a post-script, I should add that I realize your experience as a trust officer has to be a lot more current that mine. I am a tax practitioner, but the legal and auditing experience I described in my rant above was over 15 years ago. I don't want to leave the impression that I am claiming superior expertise on the specific subject of trusts, or that I could ever have done so. Yours, Famspear 21:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear critic: I have read your material with interest and do not doubt or dispute your reading of the law. I have indeed worked as a trust officer at one of America's largest banks for nearly 30 years and speak in terms that trust officers and their clients understand. I operate in a major market and have one of the largest books of business in the industry. I have no issue with your distinction between revocation and termination of a trust. What I can't find is that this makes any practical difference. If a testamentary trust gives a beneficiary the right to take all the money and bring the trust to an end, it is irrelevant to me as a practical matter whether you call it a termination or a revocation. While the action may be termination, the commonly accepted adjective for this condition is "revocable". You are correct that this is hair-splitting. Please keep in mind that my audience has never been the nation's trust and estate attorneys. I believe I have made this clear elsewhere.
Thus the distinction between revocation and termination strikes me as a distinction without a difference. If the statutes define revocation as something done only by settlors, then so be it. But the laws might just as well define termination as something done only by settlors. The terminology is largely arbitrary and irrelevant in my view, as the result is the same. In the meantime I will continue to refer to an irrevocable trust that can be terminated by action of a non-settlor as being revocable. Everyone in the industry -- including the attorneys among us -- and all beneficiaries will understand me and find my choice of language quite ordinary however vexing to a purist. The patois of the trust community is that such trusts are revocable, even if the statutes and my knowledgeable critic find this infelicitous. I suppose in some sense I am arguing that the term may continue to be misused, because everyone does it. Isn't the important thing that I am understood? The violence I do to the term "revocable" is scarcely harmful and never lethal. It is not for example obnoxious in the way "schizophrenic" is consisently misused in common speech. There misuse can be harmful.
I find it interesting that you don't know anyone who uses the term revocable in the way I have. I don't know anyone in the industry who would not understand the term in this context, who would object, or who might be misled as to my meaning. In nearly 30 years no one -- including the law school lecturer who taught me the business -- has ever objected to this use of the term. My contention is that this is how such trusts are referred to by the trust officers and attorneys I know -- however infrequently this may come up.
Sidebar: I have noticed considerable differences in how trust officers and lawyers talk about trusts from one company and region to another. No one I know ever refers to a credit shelter trust as a by-pass trust, yet I see the term used in other markets. I think we can both cite other examples. My "CRUT" may be your "CRT".
Ultimately, I have no dispute with anything you have stated. My ultimate concern -- to use your approach -- is that trust officers and clients never assume -- without reading the document -- that a testamentary trust may not be terminated by action of a non-settlor. I appreciate your input....
A further note for my learned critic: I have stated elsewhere that I do not disagree with your remarks. Appropriately, I have stopped refering to irrevocable trusts that can be terminated by a beneficiary as being revocable. I now refer to them as irrevocable trusts that can be terminated by a beneficiary. This is scarely a felicitous name, which is pretty much why the typical trust officer uses the short cut. As I think back on a now long career with one of the world's largest banks, I can think of only a handfull of such trusts. I would suppose over these years I have administered, invested, marketed, reviewed or otherwise touched at least 1000 trusts. I would be interested in the experience of others in the trust community with this odd duck.
I have edited out the word "contractual" at the beginning of the article. I would argue that trust law is more fundamentally a species of property law, not contract law. That is, the beneficiary's relationship to the trustee is one of privity of estate, not privity of contract. There is arguably a contractual relationship between the trustor and the trustee, of course, so maybe I'm all wet -- and it's been a long time since I read the leading cases on trust law. I realize I'm splitting hairs here. Anybody have any thoughts? Famspear 22:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I am not burdened with having a law degree, but I did learn the business from a law professor and he always spoke of the contractural relationship between the grantor and the trustee. So did the law texts I used when I cut my teeth as a trust officer. Yes, you may be splitting hairs as a final ruling by the Law Gods would have no affect on how I handle about 135 trusts. I do appreciate however that trust law is an odd bird generating such questions. [Note: This comment apparently inserted by anonymous user at IP 68.58.58.52 on 4 March 2006]
Dear fellow editors: I made lots of organizational (and a few substantive) changes to the main article on 23 January 2006. However, the article still needs work. Hhheelllppppp! Just kidding -- actually I would argue that those who have already contributed the substance of this article have done a very good job! Maybe it mostly needs some more fine tuning? Famspear 00:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been reading Paul Johnson's Bold textHistory of ChristianityBold text and found a reference to trusts being used as early as the fourth century CE by Roman Catholic clergy and bishops to get around rules limiting retention of wealth. Previously, the earliest period in which I had heard of this practice was the 11th or 12th century in western Europe and England. I'm interested in hearing more about this from professional historians. The reference in the Paul Johnson book in the second paragraph.
I'm proposing a merge of this article and Trust (law) non-USA. I realise the two articles were originally one article; I believe it was better to have them as one, for the following reasons:
Unless I get a strong negative reaction in the next few days, I'll stick up a merge proposal template next week. Nuge | talk 13:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
It's been nearly a week and there's been no objections; I've stuck up the merge templates. What is the consensus on this then? Same reasons as listed above. Nuge talk 03:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
What about a general "Trust Law" page that links to Trust law (USA), Trust law (Germany), Trust law (XYZ), etc.? Or, perhaps, "Trust Law" (generally), "Trust Law" (common law countries, with differences in USA, England, Australia, etc.), "Trust Law" (civil law countries, differences in France, Germany, etc.), etc? Would this be better? Chart123
Any good artciles? John wesley 12:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
While I realize this was all just recently merged back in (for the better), perhaps the USA section should be made into its own article and the current selection be reduced to two or four paragraphs. -- tomf688 ( talk - email) 03:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I've only recently revisited the trust page, which looks pretty good. IMO, if there is space to be reserved for US trust law, we ought to have space for other jurisdictions, since there are differences for each. In addition, there may be some merit in developing a project to examine some different approaches to trusts. The work that has been begun on Purpose Trusts is good, but Forced Heirship, reserved powers and so forth could merit articles. Loads of work, I know.-- Andrew Gardner 12:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that there is an edit for UK Law, which is nice text book stuff. However I am concerned that if we get into that level of detail for each jurisdiction, then the article will become rather tautological. Could we reorganise so that there is a core of information that is generally applicable to trusts and deal only with specific differences for jurisdictions?-- Andrew Gardner 10:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It was odd that this edit was a change rather than an addition, since both statements are true. The actual wording of s.33 Trustee Act 1925 is:
I've made it "...on the happening of a specified event such as the bankruptcy of the beneficiary or any attempt by him to dispose of his interest." Does that meet with general agreement? (England & Wales only, of course.) 212.125.70.174 15:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I took Wills and Trusts in law school. My casebook as well as every single book and article I have ever seen that mentions trusts all agree that it was an indigenous creation of British common law. If no one produces a citation for that crazy "waqf" theory, I'm deleting it in a few weeks. -- Coolcaesar 08:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Looks like someone came back and cited it? I wasn't here for the history. Whether or not the "suggestion" carries any weight, there does deserve to be a link as there is here, since common law practitioners need to know about waqf when dealing with Muslim clients and the standard treatises on trusts don't discuss the concept in other legal systems. Doug - DDHME 01:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says, in a USA context, "This use of trusts is similar to life estates and remainders, and are frequently used as alternatives to them." This doesn't ring true to me, at all. In the non-USA trust world, life interests ARE trusts. Can anyone with a USA-law background comment? As I say, the comment only exists in a USA context, so if it's right in USA law it should stand as it is. AndyJones 12:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know that I agree with the "US" version of this. I am not even sure I agree with the precise distinction between law and equity used here, for I don't know that I've ever dealt with real property law and had only legal issues as opposed to equitable ones. In any case there is a strong connection, but it is in the division of rights that occurs in both transactions. In one the rights of the life tenant and the remaindermen are severed, in the other it is the trustees and the beneficiaries. I don't see why a life tenancy must be in realty, by the way. There is really more similarity though between trusts and mortgages and in some US jurisdictions a form of trust substitutes for a mortgage. This won't hold in lien theory states but in title theory states a mortgage conveys the legal title to the mortgagee just as the trustee has legal title to the corpus. Doug. 07:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I put a proposed merge tag on the captioned article. A use is just an older name for a trust, and although that article is perfectly well written, I would suggest it either belongs as a sub-category of this article, or perhaps (if it is then too big) under a separate history of trusts article. Views welcome. Legis 09:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to imply that family trusts are the same as other discretionary trusts. I think that instead, a family trust is a type of discretionary trust, relaxing some rules, but imposing tax penalties if distributions are made to non-family members. One page mentioning family trusts: [1] -- RobBrisbane 11:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe Family Trusts are exclusive to Australia as my office has a few hundred clients that have done escrows under Family Trusts. I'll try to find out more. -- Leaftye 16:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it be fitting for this article to include something about Breach of Trust? It seems an article on it has been requested for more than a year, and the article it currently redirects to is about a Canadian Rock Band, which I'm not sure is appropriate without at least offering some sort of disambiguation. I added a template to the Canadian Rock Band page for DAB, but right now it directs to Trust Law. Does it deserve its own page, or is it a type of Contract Breach? Alex Ditto 17:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I've bitten the bullet and made some major changes. I thought the content was often unsound, the structure very unclear, and the style made many parts unnecessarily confusing.
I have:
I have not removed anything of significance.
Remaining issues:
Tom 9/2/2007
—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Thiskey ( talk • contribs) 12:20, 9 February 2007
Yes, excellent work, well done: a definite improvement.
A few thoughts/misgivings:
Any thoughts? AndyJones 13:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello all.
As a US Estate & Trust Attorney and new Wikipedia addict, I was curious what the status of this project is. I would be happy to be of some assistance.
Allen B. ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that I have previously argued against doing exactly this, but I am going to suggest that we do split off the "individual" jurisdiction articles. However, to keep them within the umbrella, I suggest we push them down into sub-pages which can be linked from the main page. This would also mean that there should be less of a temptation to fill the sub-pages up with stuff already adequately covered in the main article.
So the theory is that we would start with four new sub-pages:
and obviously others could later be added as needed. I also think (probably discuss for another day) that a lot of the stuff in the individual jurisdiction sub-sections could then get copied back into the primary article, and internationalised appropriately. What does everyone else think?
-- Legis ( talk - contributions) 13:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, have done it. It is all a bit ugly, and needs some tidying up, but it's a start. I have refrained from categorising the sub-pages separately, but logically this should be done eventually if only to link them to their "home" jurisdictions. -- Legis ( talk - contributions) 19:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Trustafarian redirects here, but it is never mentioned in the article. It should be explained what a "trustafarian" is, in this article, or the redirect is improper and should be deleted. —msikma ( user, talk) 18:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
There need not be two trustees for a trust in land. The minimum is one trustee holding the land on trust for one beneficiary. Nor is it necessary to have two trustees in order to sell the land. As the trustee is the legal owner, he can freely alienate the land. Two trustees are a condition for overreaching, not for establishing or operating a trust in land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.246.134 ( talk) 22:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
"Some asset protection is legal and (arguably) moral, while some asset protection is illegal and/or (arguably) immoral." Beyond the word "legal", is there any point in saying "some types are arguably moral, others aren't"? Does it actually contribute anything to an encyclopedic article? -- 165.123.187.132 ( talk) 15:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Somebody removed the "History" section. Perhaps they put it somewhere. There is a suggestion somewhere for a separate history article. Even so there should be a short summary-style history section in the main article. Any comments or thoughts? Cutler ( talk) 15:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I've just gone through a half dozen treatments of the waqf, including one book solely devoted to the institution. None of them mentioned the "hidden origins of the common law trust in the waqf" theory, so I think this can safely be dismissed as a fringe theory put in for Islamic apologetic reasons. In fact the book I read about the waqf, "The birth of a legal institution: the formation of the waqf ..." mentions various scholarly opinions on the origins of the waqf in Roman and Sasanid law. Jayzames ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following anon-added material from the article, primarily because it is all-caps, but also because it seems to be a contentious claim, worthy of a citation:
Cheers! bd2412 T 00:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Can I propose that we merge living trust into this article? Lawdroid ( talk) 17:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The linked page says "This type of entity was first devised by Link Egglepple Starbureiy in 2010 to describe the creation of the United Under Economy trust. Before this, there was no mention of such a statute anywhere in literature or common law.". No evidence for a statute, this may have been created to use here? Dougweller ( talk) 07:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
For an article of this length, it has remarkably few referenced sources. I'm interested in reading more about particular topics, but don't know where this information came from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.208.122 ( talk) 19:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
May I suggest that this page needs a revamp because it conceives of a trust as something related to will and testaments and is situated in a particular paradigm of thought that does not represent what a trust really is. Unit trusts, for example, are widely used in funds management and can even be listed on stock exchanges. There are a number of other definitions of trust associated with the disambiguation page for the word that, in the scope of the broader meaning of the entity should probably be absorbed and explained within the context of a single page called for all Trusts. At the moment, the information on Wikipedia regarding the definition of this type of entity is incomplete. Pkearney ( talk) 04:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello all. I think that just like there's the general law of contract and specific contracts (employment, insurance, consumer, sales, etc) there's a general trust law, and then specific trusts (pensions, unit trusts, family trusts, testamentary, etc) all of which should be included in a page like this. The distinctions between the general and the specific are essentially different implied terms and compulsory regulation, which is to suit the subject matter of the transaction and the relative positions of the parties. Wik idea 02:40, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I tried to add a bit of history in terms of the concept of a trust back in September of this year and was immediately shut down ( see history of warnings on my page and history at this article ). I'd like to reintroduce the concept and its source to show that, perhaps, this is one of the earliest concepts of the idea of what we know today termed a "trust." Aside from what only faith can believe ( verse 5 ), please look at what is depicted and the outcome in the favor of the lady whose land and property was lost. Here it is;
3 At the end of the seven years she came back from the land of the Philistines and went to appeal to the king for her house and land. 4 The king was talking to Gehazi, the servant of the man of God, and had said, “Tell me about all the great things Elisha has done.” 5 Just as Gehazi was telling the king how Elisha had restored the dead to life, the woman whose son Elisha had brought back to life came to appeal to the king for her house and land.
Gehazi said, “This is the woman, my lord the king, and this is her son whom Elisha restored to life.” 6 The king asked the woman about it, and she told him.
Then he assigned an official to her case and said to him, “Give back everything that belonged to her, including all the income from her land from the day she left the country until now.”
- 2 Kings 8: 1-6
We see she 'appealed' to the highest ranking bureaucrat ( the king ) and there was an eye witness to substantiate her appeal. One could read in the history of this wiki entry that I only wanted to include the specific language speaking to what can be conceptualized as a 'trust' when the king restores the woman's land / property and includes income derived while she was absent. Isn't this exactly what one does when one entrusts their property into a legal entity and assigns a trustee to oversee it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HafizHanif ( talk • contribs)
On the testimony of Gehazi the servant of Elisha that the woman was the owner of these lands, the king returns all her property to her. From the fact that the king orders his eunuch to return to the woman all her property and the produce of her land from the time that she left ...
-- HafizHanif ( talk) 19:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Easier to maintain quality with less duplication. II | ( t - c) 00:11, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate help with making the introduction/lead more readable. Lawdroid had reverted my edits, saying that because this is a legal topic, "It is the place for legal jargon." Based on Wikipedia standards, I disagree... especially for the lead. As such, I have restored my clarified version.
If my rewriting of the lead has removed any key information appropriate for the lead, then I would appreciate other editors helping by adding that element in plain language.
Here are key references.
Wshallwshall ( talk) 16:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This section reads in part: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees or companies or their families or dependents". Should it not instead be: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees OF companies or their families or dependents"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eponymous-Archon ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
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User:Burt Harris has created a mess in this article that looks like possible vandalism. Unfortunately, User:ImperfectlyInformed reverted my revert of those edits.
If User:ImperfectlyInformed is acting in good faith and not trying to be complicit in vandalizing Wikipedia, then it is User:ImperfectlyInformed's problem to clean up a mess that is now no longer in compliance with the Manual of Style. If I don't see some improvement within a month, then I'm going to revert again back to the last good version. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 04:29, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I have just added two new items on the numbered list under 'Purposes'. My logic was that the trust is much more expansive and wide-reaching than most realise, and this article should reflect this. All homes subject to mortgage are owned on trust, all companies are owned on trust, credit cards, bank accounts, in fact I think I read something like 75% of the wealth in the UK is owned on trust. It is important for this article to reflect that, and not fall into the trap of a too narrow view of what a trust is. Shayday~enwiki ( talk) 03:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Dear user Shayday~enwiki: I agree with Coolcaesar and Legis. Further, if your logic for making edits to this article is that you believe "that the trust is much more expansive and wide-reaching than most realise, and this article should reflect this", then you need to re-think your role here. You may want to review Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. And, no it is incorrect to say that "all homes subject to mortgage are owned on trust." It is incorrect to say that "all companies are owned on trust." Sounds like you may have been reading unreliable material. Famspear ( talk) 02:27, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
I have added "statutory business trust" to this list. I belatedly realized that this section is really about the purposes behind the creation of trusts rather than a list of trust types. Please feel free to amend as appropriate. Breakthegate ( talk) 16:55, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The introduction to this article needs work. It should be written using accessible language, in such a way that it defines and explains, in broad terms, what a trust is, what it is for, in what situations they are found, etc. If the level of legal/economic knoweldge required to comprehend the article is such that someone possessing that knowledge would already know full well what trusts are and how they function, then the introduction is redundant, it serves only the reader that does not require it.
I have added cleanup tags and a couple of comments embedded in the wikitext to aid whichever editor takes up this task.
Apologies for not making changes to the body of the text myself, I don't want to seem lazy, but I'd rather leave it to someone with more expertise in the topic who can make better judgement calls than I on what should be prioritized, and what the most demonstrative/representative examples would be; I figured this would be better than nothing, to draw attention to the issue and get the ball rolling. I wouldn't want to get stuck in to it myself, and end up leaving the article with a better written but less accurate/informative introduction – I am not an expert in this area and I think it requires someone who knows enough to pick out what the key facts really are that need to be focussed on in the introduction.
the 4 main problems as I see them right now are:
1) a use of technical verbiage without explanation (or example) in a way that is not accessible to the layman
2) poor organisation of information: the paragraph ordering is seemingly random at the moment, so what could be coherent threads of thought are instead broken up and spliced between multiple paragraphs with interjections in between.
3) excess detail/information about specifics in the lead, which should instead give a broad overview and leave the intricacies to the body (Much of the specific, detailed information currently found in this introduction e.g. the nuances of different types of trusts, specific differences in how trusts operate as legal instruments in different US states, perhaps even some of the history could be moved to the article body.)
4) USA centric. It's not always clear when the text is referring to America specifically or to trusts in general. And for that matter, to what extent do trusts exist in which countries and legal systems? Is this article about a worldwide legal instrument, a common law legal instrument, a US legal instrument? From the lead, it's not clear.
These issues could be tackled independently or altogether. Some things will need to be expanded, others moved, others deleted altogether.
I hope this is helpful to whomever reads this, as a starting point. Good luck!
-- Tomatoswoop ( talk) 02:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Follow-up comment:
Here is the most recent article revision with a servicable intro that I could find: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Trust_law&oldid=785803370 . Honourable mention: this earlier revision from 2013 cleaning up the intro (consensus on this talk page from then was that this was a good revision) https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Trust_law&oldid=567963803 . Perhaps these might (in addition to the article at present) form a useful basis upon which to construct a decent lead to this article.
-- Tomatoswoop ( talk) 03:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I think my decision to move this page deserves some justification.
This article may be - indeed appears to be - good in terms of content: but if it is, it is good only with regard to the USA's legal systems. Much of the content is wrong in the context of trust law more directly based on the "English model", as it applies in England and Wales, the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Bermuda, Canada, (some of) the Caribbean, (some of) the Pacific Islands, Australia and New Zealand - as well as several civil law nations with statutory trusts laws.
This difficulty asserts itself from the very first sentence, where trusts are conceived as a branch of contract law.
I felt that any attempt to reconcile the two legal systems in one article was doomed to failure, and would only lead to understandable disputes with the existing authors. My solution is to move the existing Trusts (property) to Trust (Law) USA and to create the new page Trust (Law) non-USA (a title which might itself promote some debate, there) to deal with trusts in the English-model jurisdictions.
I will make the obvious amendments on Trust (disambiguation), and in the first sentence of this article. I do not intend to make any further amendment on this page. AndyJones 19:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a complete rewrite. Recently, an anon added a lot of information to the introduction of the article which needs to be incorporated into the remaining context of the article itself. The information does not seem to be copyvio, but should be checked nonetheless. I lack the knowledge on this subject to combine these sections effectively, but if someone else who has a bit more of an idea about this could, then that would be much appreciated. -- tomf688{ talk} 23:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe I am the anon (didn't know there was another way to do this!) and I couldn't agree more. All this information comes from nearly 30 years in the business. I am not an attorney and my intended audience is the educated layman who wants to learn the basics rather than get a law school board prep.
Would someone mind providing a cite or discussion re the possibility of creating a revocable testamentary trust? I am skeptical that this is possible but am willing to be educated.
gbroiles 09:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's your answer: the testator/settlor simply writes a clause into testamentary trust allowing one or more persons the right to withdraw all the assets at any time. I've seen this in Indiana documents at least twice. Such trusts are treated as grantor trusts for tax purposes even though they are testamentary. This brings up what should be an obvious point but is frequently missed: It makes not a whit of difference whether a trust was created inter vivos or by testatment. The administrator must still read the document and see what it says. One should be careful to not assume a testamentary trust is ipso facto irrevocable. Unfortunately, this assumption is made by many practitioners without reading the document. Indeed, most software (SEI for example) simiply assumes all trusts under will are irrevocable.
[note above comment from user at address 68.58.58.82 on 20 Feb. 2006]
Dear fellow editors: The following language:
was deleted. Again, the "practitioners" are generally correct, and the editor (at IP address 68.58.58.82) who inserted this language is, as a general proposition, incorrect. We need to use legal terminology correctly. A trust does not become "revocable" because a beneficiary attains a certain age, for example. A trust might "terminate" for that reason, but it would not be "revoked" for that reason.
The only way I can think of off hand that a trust could be "revoked" in this situation would be where the testator set up a trust for himself (for example, with someone else as trustee), say at age 21, with a provision that says that he himself could not revoke the trust until he reached, say, age 30. That's a highly unlikely scenario, and I don't think that's what my fellow editor intended. "Revocation" is one way to "terminate" a trust -- but "revocation" can be done only by the creator of the trust. Termination of a trust according to its terms, such as the age attainment of a beneficiary or some other contingency, is generally not considered a "revocation." Yours, Famspear 00:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: From a fiduciary tax perspective the ability to remove any or all funds at will makes the trust a grantor trust for tax purposes and all grantor trusts (as defined in fiduciary tax law) are revocable. Arguing that a testamentary trust can never be revoked, because the settlor has died, misses the practical point. It seems entirely defensible to call a testamentary trust that can be terminated at the will of a beneficiary a revocable trust. Indeed, practitioners (lawyers and trust officers) typically refer to such testamentary trusts as revocable. Isn't a revocable trust one that can be terminated at the will of a beneficiary?
Moving on: I find the following statement
"By definition, "revocation" can be done only by the testator...."
remarkable. This gets to the heart of the matter: Revocation is not a right exclusive to the settlor. It is a right retained in most but not all cases by the settlor, and granted in some cases to one or more other beneficiaries during or after the lifetime of the settlor. While a settlor is usually his own beneficiary (in the case of a full-service inter vivos trust created for money management and typical fiduciary services during lifetime), he is no different than any other beneficiary having the right to terminate a trust. If someone can terminate a trust, then the trust is revocable -- whether or not the settlor is alive and has retained that right. Fellow editor's "by definition" language simply doesn't fly in my 30 years experience. Try saying out loud with a straight face in the offices of any serious corporate fiduciary organization or law firm that a testamentary trust which happens to be a grantor trust for tax purposes is not thereby revocable and you will see what I'm talking about.
And, finally, I agree with fellow editor that a trust that is about to close due to required age attainment payouts need not change its name to "revocable". However, if a beneficiary due to age attainment or other reasons (such as satisfaction of a condition such as having a child) now has a right to pull out the assets and thus terminate the trust but nevertheless does not do so, a wise trust officer will do well to put the word "revocable" into the title. The reason: the trust has now become a grantor trust (a beneficiary has the right to take all the assets at any time) and all grantor trusts (for tax purposes) are ipso facto revocable. Again, revocability is not a function of the state of being of the settlor but rather of the rights of the beneficiaries.
Note: the right of a beneficiary to fire the trustee and substitute another does NOT make the trust revocable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.58.82 ( talk • contribs) .
Dear editor at IP 68.58.58.52: As a post-script, I should add that I realize your experience as a trust officer has to be a lot more current that mine. I am a tax practitioner, but the legal and auditing experience I described in my rant above was over 15 years ago. I don't want to leave the impression that I am claiming superior expertise on the specific subject of trusts, or that I could ever have done so. Yours, Famspear 21:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear critic: I have read your material with interest and do not doubt or dispute your reading of the law. I have indeed worked as a trust officer at one of America's largest banks for nearly 30 years and speak in terms that trust officers and their clients understand. I operate in a major market and have one of the largest books of business in the industry. I have no issue with your distinction between revocation and termination of a trust. What I can't find is that this makes any practical difference. If a testamentary trust gives a beneficiary the right to take all the money and bring the trust to an end, it is irrelevant to me as a practical matter whether you call it a termination or a revocation. While the action may be termination, the commonly accepted adjective for this condition is "revocable". You are correct that this is hair-splitting. Please keep in mind that my audience has never been the nation's trust and estate attorneys. I believe I have made this clear elsewhere.
Thus the distinction between revocation and termination strikes me as a distinction without a difference. If the statutes define revocation as something done only by settlors, then so be it. But the laws might just as well define termination as something done only by settlors. The terminology is largely arbitrary and irrelevant in my view, as the result is the same. In the meantime I will continue to refer to an irrevocable trust that can be terminated by action of a non-settlor as being revocable. Everyone in the industry -- including the attorneys among us -- and all beneficiaries will understand me and find my choice of language quite ordinary however vexing to a purist. The patois of the trust community is that such trusts are revocable, even if the statutes and my knowledgeable critic find this infelicitous. I suppose in some sense I am arguing that the term may continue to be misused, because everyone does it. Isn't the important thing that I am understood? The violence I do to the term "revocable" is scarcely harmful and never lethal. It is not for example obnoxious in the way "schizophrenic" is consisently misused in common speech. There misuse can be harmful.
I find it interesting that you don't know anyone who uses the term revocable in the way I have. I don't know anyone in the industry who would not understand the term in this context, who would object, or who might be misled as to my meaning. In nearly 30 years no one -- including the law school lecturer who taught me the business -- has ever objected to this use of the term. My contention is that this is how such trusts are referred to by the trust officers and attorneys I know -- however infrequently this may come up.
Sidebar: I have noticed considerable differences in how trust officers and lawyers talk about trusts from one company and region to another. No one I know ever refers to a credit shelter trust as a by-pass trust, yet I see the term used in other markets. I think we can both cite other examples. My "CRUT" may be your "CRT".
Ultimately, I have no dispute with anything you have stated. My ultimate concern -- to use your approach -- is that trust officers and clients never assume -- without reading the document -- that a testamentary trust may not be terminated by action of a non-settlor. I appreciate your input....
A further note for my learned critic: I have stated elsewhere that I do not disagree with your remarks. Appropriately, I have stopped refering to irrevocable trusts that can be terminated by a beneficiary as being revocable. I now refer to them as irrevocable trusts that can be terminated by a beneficiary. This is scarely a felicitous name, which is pretty much why the typical trust officer uses the short cut. As I think back on a now long career with one of the world's largest banks, I can think of only a handfull of such trusts. I would suppose over these years I have administered, invested, marketed, reviewed or otherwise touched at least 1000 trusts. I would be interested in the experience of others in the trust community with this odd duck.
I have edited out the word "contractual" at the beginning of the article. I would argue that trust law is more fundamentally a species of property law, not contract law. That is, the beneficiary's relationship to the trustee is one of privity of estate, not privity of contract. There is arguably a contractual relationship between the trustor and the trustee, of course, so maybe I'm all wet -- and it's been a long time since I read the leading cases on trust law. I realize I'm splitting hairs here. Anybody have any thoughts? Famspear 22:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I am not burdened with having a law degree, but I did learn the business from a law professor and he always spoke of the contractural relationship between the grantor and the trustee. So did the law texts I used when I cut my teeth as a trust officer. Yes, you may be splitting hairs as a final ruling by the Law Gods would have no affect on how I handle about 135 trusts. I do appreciate however that trust law is an odd bird generating such questions. [Note: This comment apparently inserted by anonymous user at IP 68.58.58.52 on 4 March 2006]
Dear fellow editors: I made lots of organizational (and a few substantive) changes to the main article on 23 January 2006. However, the article still needs work. Hhheelllppppp! Just kidding -- actually I would argue that those who have already contributed the substance of this article have done a very good job! Maybe it mostly needs some more fine tuning? Famspear 00:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been reading Paul Johnson's Bold textHistory of ChristianityBold text and found a reference to trusts being used as early as the fourth century CE by Roman Catholic clergy and bishops to get around rules limiting retention of wealth. Previously, the earliest period in which I had heard of this practice was the 11th or 12th century in western Europe and England. I'm interested in hearing more about this from professional historians. The reference in the Paul Johnson book in the second paragraph.
I'm proposing a merge of this article and Trust (law) non-USA. I realise the two articles were originally one article; I believe it was better to have them as one, for the following reasons:
Unless I get a strong negative reaction in the next few days, I'll stick up a merge proposal template next week. Nuge | talk 13:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
It's been nearly a week and there's been no objections; I've stuck up the merge templates. What is the consensus on this then? Same reasons as listed above. Nuge talk 03:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
What about a general "Trust Law" page that links to Trust law (USA), Trust law (Germany), Trust law (XYZ), etc.? Or, perhaps, "Trust Law" (generally), "Trust Law" (common law countries, with differences in USA, England, Australia, etc.), "Trust Law" (civil law countries, differences in France, Germany, etc.), etc? Would this be better? Chart123
Any good artciles? John wesley 12:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
While I realize this was all just recently merged back in (for the better), perhaps the USA section should be made into its own article and the current selection be reduced to two or four paragraphs. -- tomf688 ( talk - email) 03:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I've only recently revisited the trust page, which looks pretty good. IMO, if there is space to be reserved for US trust law, we ought to have space for other jurisdictions, since there are differences for each. In addition, there may be some merit in developing a project to examine some different approaches to trusts. The work that has been begun on Purpose Trusts is good, but Forced Heirship, reserved powers and so forth could merit articles. Loads of work, I know.-- Andrew Gardner 12:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that there is an edit for UK Law, which is nice text book stuff. However I am concerned that if we get into that level of detail for each jurisdiction, then the article will become rather tautological. Could we reorganise so that there is a core of information that is generally applicable to trusts and deal only with specific differences for jurisdictions?-- Andrew Gardner 10:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It was odd that this edit was a change rather than an addition, since both statements are true. The actual wording of s.33 Trustee Act 1925 is:
I've made it "...on the happening of a specified event such as the bankruptcy of the beneficiary or any attempt by him to dispose of his interest." Does that meet with general agreement? (England & Wales only, of course.) 212.125.70.174 15:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I took Wills and Trusts in law school. My casebook as well as every single book and article I have ever seen that mentions trusts all agree that it was an indigenous creation of British common law. If no one produces a citation for that crazy "waqf" theory, I'm deleting it in a few weeks. -- Coolcaesar 08:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Looks like someone came back and cited it? I wasn't here for the history. Whether or not the "suggestion" carries any weight, there does deserve to be a link as there is here, since common law practitioners need to know about waqf when dealing with Muslim clients and the standard treatises on trusts don't discuss the concept in other legal systems. Doug - DDHME 01:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says, in a USA context, "This use of trusts is similar to life estates and remainders, and are frequently used as alternatives to them." This doesn't ring true to me, at all. In the non-USA trust world, life interests ARE trusts. Can anyone with a USA-law background comment? As I say, the comment only exists in a USA context, so if it's right in USA law it should stand as it is. AndyJones 12:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know that I agree with the "US" version of this. I am not even sure I agree with the precise distinction between law and equity used here, for I don't know that I've ever dealt with real property law and had only legal issues as opposed to equitable ones. In any case there is a strong connection, but it is in the division of rights that occurs in both transactions. In one the rights of the life tenant and the remaindermen are severed, in the other it is the trustees and the beneficiaries. I don't see why a life tenancy must be in realty, by the way. There is really more similarity though between trusts and mortgages and in some US jurisdictions a form of trust substitutes for a mortgage. This won't hold in lien theory states but in title theory states a mortgage conveys the legal title to the mortgagee just as the trustee has legal title to the corpus. Doug. 07:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I put a proposed merge tag on the captioned article. A use is just an older name for a trust, and although that article is perfectly well written, I would suggest it either belongs as a sub-category of this article, or perhaps (if it is then too big) under a separate history of trusts article. Views welcome. Legis 09:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to imply that family trusts are the same as other discretionary trusts. I think that instead, a family trust is a type of discretionary trust, relaxing some rules, but imposing tax penalties if distributions are made to non-family members. One page mentioning family trusts: [1] -- RobBrisbane 11:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe Family Trusts are exclusive to Australia as my office has a few hundred clients that have done escrows under Family Trusts. I'll try to find out more. -- Leaftye 16:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it be fitting for this article to include something about Breach of Trust? It seems an article on it has been requested for more than a year, and the article it currently redirects to is about a Canadian Rock Band, which I'm not sure is appropriate without at least offering some sort of disambiguation. I added a template to the Canadian Rock Band page for DAB, but right now it directs to Trust Law. Does it deserve its own page, or is it a type of Contract Breach? Alex Ditto 17:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I've bitten the bullet and made some major changes. I thought the content was often unsound, the structure very unclear, and the style made many parts unnecessarily confusing.
I have:
I have not removed anything of significance.
Remaining issues:
Tom 9/2/2007
—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Thiskey ( talk • contribs) 12:20, 9 February 2007
Yes, excellent work, well done: a definite improvement.
A few thoughts/misgivings:
Any thoughts? AndyJones 13:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello all.
As a US Estate & Trust Attorney and new Wikipedia addict, I was curious what the status of this project is. I would be happy to be of some assistance.
Allen B. ( talk) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that I have previously argued against doing exactly this, but I am going to suggest that we do split off the "individual" jurisdiction articles. However, to keep them within the umbrella, I suggest we push them down into sub-pages which can be linked from the main page. This would also mean that there should be less of a temptation to fill the sub-pages up with stuff already adequately covered in the main article.
So the theory is that we would start with four new sub-pages:
and obviously others could later be added as needed. I also think (probably discuss for another day) that a lot of the stuff in the individual jurisdiction sub-sections could then get copied back into the primary article, and internationalised appropriately. What does everyone else think?
-- Legis ( talk - contributions) 13:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, have done it. It is all a bit ugly, and needs some tidying up, but it's a start. I have refrained from categorising the sub-pages separately, but logically this should be done eventually if only to link them to their "home" jurisdictions. -- Legis ( talk - contributions) 19:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Trustafarian redirects here, but it is never mentioned in the article. It should be explained what a "trustafarian" is, in this article, or the redirect is improper and should be deleted. —msikma ( user, talk) 18:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
There need not be two trustees for a trust in land. The minimum is one trustee holding the land on trust for one beneficiary. Nor is it necessary to have two trustees in order to sell the land. As the trustee is the legal owner, he can freely alienate the land. Two trustees are a condition for overreaching, not for establishing or operating a trust in land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.246.134 ( talk) 22:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
"Some asset protection is legal and (arguably) moral, while some asset protection is illegal and/or (arguably) immoral." Beyond the word "legal", is there any point in saying "some types are arguably moral, others aren't"? Does it actually contribute anything to an encyclopedic article? -- 165.123.187.132 ( talk) 15:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Somebody removed the "History" section. Perhaps they put it somewhere. There is a suggestion somewhere for a separate history article. Even so there should be a short summary-style history section in the main article. Any comments or thoughts? Cutler ( talk) 15:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I've just gone through a half dozen treatments of the waqf, including one book solely devoted to the institution. None of them mentioned the "hidden origins of the common law trust in the waqf" theory, so I think this can safely be dismissed as a fringe theory put in for Islamic apologetic reasons. In fact the book I read about the waqf, "The birth of a legal institution: the formation of the waqf ..." mentions various scholarly opinions on the origins of the waqf in Roman and Sasanid law. Jayzames ( talk) 01:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following anon-added material from the article, primarily because it is all-caps, but also because it seems to be a contentious claim, worthy of a citation:
Cheers! bd2412 T 00:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Can I propose that we merge living trust into this article? Lawdroid ( talk) 17:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The linked page says "This type of entity was first devised by Link Egglepple Starbureiy in 2010 to describe the creation of the United Under Economy trust. Before this, there was no mention of such a statute anywhere in literature or common law.". No evidence for a statute, this may have been created to use here? Dougweller ( talk) 07:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
For an article of this length, it has remarkably few referenced sources. I'm interested in reading more about particular topics, but don't know where this information came from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.208.122 ( talk) 19:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
May I suggest that this page needs a revamp because it conceives of a trust as something related to will and testaments and is situated in a particular paradigm of thought that does not represent what a trust really is. Unit trusts, for example, are widely used in funds management and can even be listed on stock exchanges. There are a number of other definitions of trust associated with the disambiguation page for the word that, in the scope of the broader meaning of the entity should probably be absorbed and explained within the context of a single page called for all Trusts. At the moment, the information on Wikipedia regarding the definition of this type of entity is incomplete. Pkearney ( talk) 04:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello all. I think that just like there's the general law of contract and specific contracts (employment, insurance, consumer, sales, etc) there's a general trust law, and then specific trusts (pensions, unit trusts, family trusts, testamentary, etc) all of which should be included in a page like this. The distinctions between the general and the specific are essentially different implied terms and compulsory regulation, which is to suit the subject matter of the transaction and the relative positions of the parties. Wik idea 02:40, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I tried to add a bit of history in terms of the concept of a trust back in September of this year and was immediately shut down ( see history of warnings on my page and history at this article ). I'd like to reintroduce the concept and its source to show that, perhaps, this is one of the earliest concepts of the idea of what we know today termed a "trust." Aside from what only faith can believe ( verse 5 ), please look at what is depicted and the outcome in the favor of the lady whose land and property was lost. Here it is;
3 At the end of the seven years she came back from the land of the Philistines and went to appeal to the king for her house and land. 4 The king was talking to Gehazi, the servant of the man of God, and had said, “Tell me about all the great things Elisha has done.” 5 Just as Gehazi was telling the king how Elisha had restored the dead to life, the woman whose son Elisha had brought back to life came to appeal to the king for her house and land.
Gehazi said, “This is the woman, my lord the king, and this is her son whom Elisha restored to life.” 6 The king asked the woman about it, and she told him.
Then he assigned an official to her case and said to him, “Give back everything that belonged to her, including all the income from her land from the day she left the country until now.”
- 2 Kings 8: 1-6
We see she 'appealed' to the highest ranking bureaucrat ( the king ) and there was an eye witness to substantiate her appeal. One could read in the history of this wiki entry that I only wanted to include the specific language speaking to what can be conceptualized as a 'trust' when the king restores the woman's land / property and includes income derived while she was absent. Isn't this exactly what one does when one entrusts their property into a legal entity and assigns a trustee to oversee it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HafizHanif ( talk • contribs)
On the testimony of Gehazi the servant of Elisha that the woman was the owner of these lands, the king returns all her property to her. From the fact that the king orders his eunuch to return to the woman all her property and the produce of her land from the time that she left ...
-- HafizHanif ( talk) 19:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Easier to maintain quality with less duplication. II | ( t - c) 00:11, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate help with making the introduction/lead more readable. Lawdroid had reverted my edits, saying that because this is a legal topic, "It is the place for legal jargon." Based on Wikipedia standards, I disagree... especially for the lead. As such, I have restored my clarified version.
If my rewriting of the lead has removed any key information appropriate for the lead, then I would appreciate other editors helping by adding that element in plain language.
Here are key references.
Wshallwshall ( talk) 16:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This section reads in part: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees or companies or their families or dependents". Should it not instead be: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees OF companies or their families or dependents"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eponymous-Archon ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:12, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Burt Harris has created a mess in this article that looks like possible vandalism. Unfortunately, User:ImperfectlyInformed reverted my revert of those edits.
If User:ImperfectlyInformed is acting in good faith and not trying to be complicit in vandalizing Wikipedia, then it is User:ImperfectlyInformed's problem to clean up a mess that is now no longer in compliance with the Manual of Style. If I don't see some improvement within a month, then I'm going to revert again back to the last good version. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 04:29, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I have just added two new items on the numbered list under 'Purposes'. My logic was that the trust is much more expansive and wide-reaching than most realise, and this article should reflect this. All homes subject to mortgage are owned on trust, all companies are owned on trust, credit cards, bank accounts, in fact I think I read something like 75% of the wealth in the UK is owned on trust. It is important for this article to reflect that, and not fall into the trap of a too narrow view of what a trust is. Shayday~enwiki ( talk) 03:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Dear user Shayday~enwiki: I agree with Coolcaesar and Legis. Further, if your logic for making edits to this article is that you believe "that the trust is much more expansive and wide-reaching than most realise, and this article should reflect this", then you need to re-think your role here. You may want to review Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. And, no it is incorrect to say that "all homes subject to mortgage are owned on trust." It is incorrect to say that "all companies are owned on trust." Sounds like you may have been reading unreliable material. Famspear ( talk) 02:27, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
I have added "statutory business trust" to this list. I belatedly realized that this section is really about the purposes behind the creation of trusts rather than a list of trust types. Please feel free to amend as appropriate. Breakthegate ( talk) 16:55, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The introduction to this article needs work. It should be written using accessible language, in such a way that it defines and explains, in broad terms, what a trust is, what it is for, in what situations they are found, etc. If the level of legal/economic knoweldge required to comprehend the article is such that someone possessing that knowledge would already know full well what trusts are and how they function, then the introduction is redundant, it serves only the reader that does not require it.
I have added cleanup tags and a couple of comments embedded in the wikitext to aid whichever editor takes up this task.
Apologies for not making changes to the body of the text myself, I don't want to seem lazy, but I'd rather leave it to someone with more expertise in the topic who can make better judgement calls than I on what should be prioritized, and what the most demonstrative/representative examples would be; I figured this would be better than nothing, to draw attention to the issue and get the ball rolling. I wouldn't want to get stuck in to it myself, and end up leaving the article with a better written but less accurate/informative introduction – I am not an expert in this area and I think it requires someone who knows enough to pick out what the key facts really are that need to be focussed on in the introduction.
the 4 main problems as I see them right now are:
1) a use of technical verbiage without explanation (or example) in a way that is not accessible to the layman
2) poor organisation of information: the paragraph ordering is seemingly random at the moment, so what could be coherent threads of thought are instead broken up and spliced between multiple paragraphs with interjections in between.
3) excess detail/information about specifics in the lead, which should instead give a broad overview and leave the intricacies to the body (Much of the specific, detailed information currently found in this introduction e.g. the nuances of different types of trusts, specific differences in how trusts operate as legal instruments in different US states, perhaps even some of the history could be moved to the article body.)
4) USA centric. It's not always clear when the text is referring to America specifically or to trusts in general. And for that matter, to what extent do trusts exist in which countries and legal systems? Is this article about a worldwide legal instrument, a common law legal instrument, a US legal instrument? From the lead, it's not clear.
These issues could be tackled independently or altogether. Some things will need to be expanded, others moved, others deleted altogether.
I hope this is helpful to whomever reads this, as a starting point. Good luck!
-- Tomatoswoop ( talk) 02:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Follow-up comment:
Here is the most recent article revision with a servicable intro that I could find: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Trust_law&oldid=785803370 . Honourable mention: this earlier revision from 2013 cleaning up the intro (consensus on this talk page from then was that this was a good revision) https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Trust_law&oldid=567963803 . Perhaps these might (in addition to the article at present) form a useful basis upon which to construct a decent lead to this article.
-- Tomatoswoop ( talk) 03:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)