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Please revert the last edit. The article itself talks about some conservatives being on the receiving end of being accused of having "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (Bret Stephens for example). Davidb1988 ( talk) 03:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
That's the one! Davidb1988 ( talk) 17:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Can someone write in the header that this is also known as Trump Anxiety Disorder? This source talks about it, and this source as well. -- 2001:8003:4023:D900:E56F:48DE:190B:3347 ( talk) 02:18, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
I just removed a recent addition to the lede [1] about a survey among members of the "Presidents & Executive Politics Section of the American Political Science Association". There was nothing in the material about Trump Derangement Syndrome which is the subject of this article. Furthermore, I don't see why a survey of one section of one professional association should be included in Wikipedia anywhere. And I found their results to be highly questionable: they claimed Trump was the "most polarizing president in history" (I think Abe Lincoln might have a claim to that title - multiple states seceded just because he was elected president - and anyhow we would have to say "respondents believed" rather than asserting it as fact) and the worst president in history (we have repeatedly refused to put that kind of assertion in the main Donald Trump article). Open to discussion of course. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:43, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Why are people so 'deranged' about Trump?" some might ask. Well, might it be because he's broadly perceived by subject matter experts as the most polarizing president in history, so maybe it isn't really "derangement" at all?That makes good sense as original research. But we don't do original research here. Where does it say - in a Reliable Source - that TDS is the result of him being so polarizing? I think we need to be careful to keep to the actual subject of this article and not bring in stuff that hasn't been related to the subject by a Reliable Source. Not as "examples" of anti-Trump actions that the editor felt showed TDS (I have recently deleted several such), and not as justifications for why people might feel that way. -- MelanieN ( talk) 03:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
The tone of this article seems to move fairly rapidly from a discussion of the meaning and etymology of the phrase directly into presumptive language and quotations that beg the question that this is a real phenomenon as opposed to a subjective interpretation informed by confirmation bias, without presenting adequate counterpoints to balance. This is a controversial phrase used to demean detractors of the president and publicly devalue their opinions, and whether or not he deserves to be demeaned or those detractors do indeed suffer from being "unable to distinguish fantasy from reality," this article should maintain as neutral a tone as possible. Additionally, does this really need its own article rather than a redirect to a section of a larger "Presidency of Donald Trump" article?
@ Volunteer Marek: Regarding the location of the paragraph beginning with "The use of the term by some on the right...", the IP editor's summary, which I agreed with, was "Deleted an excerpt that should be under “Use” of the term rather than the main definition. It was an opinion explaining how/why the term is used and was intentionally placed with the definition of the controversial term to make the opinion of one of the parties who dislike the term more visible. It serves no benefit to the actual definition of the term, but could be moved to the “Use” section like similar opinions that already exist there." Could you clarify your disagreement? Cheers, Λυδ α cιτγ 01:31, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Source. -- 1.136.108.0 ( talk) 19:45, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to propose removing the first sentence of the "uses" section for the following reasons:
1.) As I'm now realizing from the above discussion, it seems there is a general consensus that all hints at this page that Trump Derangement Syndrome is anything other than base ad hominem fabricated whole cloth from genuine criticism of Trump policies should be scrutinized and reworded. The first sentence (Michael Davis claims that "conservatives and progressives appear equally susceptible.") is a perfect example of how a sentence in this article SHOULDN'T be formulated because it lends a sense that this is an actual malady.
and
2.) The source used to supply that sentence has no business being included in this encyclopedia... Especially if we're just using it to quote a fringy writer withuot establishing notability on this topic or anything even tangentially related.
198.119.225.212 (
talk)
22:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Two examples of anti-Trump rallies or demonstrations have just been added to this article, under a section titled “Manifestations”. Classifying these incidents - one protest march, one fistfight - as “Trump Derangement Syndrome” appears to be WP:Original research. None of the five references provided mention Trump Derangement Syndrome, so there is no justification for including them in this article. Accordingly I am going to delete the two paragraphs until sources can be provided identifying these, or any other overt actions, as actual examples of TDS. All the examples given under “Definition” involve a manner of speaking, an extreme or persistent criticism of everything Trump does. Nobody that I have seen has tried to claim that every protest march, or every fight between supporters and opponents, is an example of this so-called syndrome. Pinging User:Let us eat lettuce. -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:33, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
In the USES section above, we see the problem of dealing with a misleading POV attack phrase like "Trump Derangement Syndrome". We're taking a nasty nickname which would normally be of no significance or notability and dignifying it by allowing use of unreliable sources (the ones who use it) to document its uses. Odd situation. We're giving undue weight to a fringe POV because it apparently passed the basic notabilty criteria for an article here.
Sources like Herman Cain, Fox News, and James Woods are hardly reliable for anything other than their own POV. Such use must be attributed carefully and not presented as if it was true, just that it was stated as the fringe POV it is. This sentence is quite revealing, as it's unattributed and is the POV of the editor who wrote it above: "Scarborough was called out for his derangement and misrepresentation of facts by some media outlets." He's not deranged, nor did he misrepresent facts. On the contrary; he fact checks.
So how should we do this right? We shouldn't give undue weight to the phrase, but give more weight to the RS which show how misleading the phrase actually is.
Here's our lead:
"Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is a neologism used by its adherents to describe a reaction to United States President Donald Trump by liberals, progressives, and anti-Trump conservatives, who are said to respond to Trump's statements and political actions irrationally, with little regard to Trump's actual position or action taken."
It is not "irrational" to respond to Trump's falsehoods, immorality, ignorance, vile language, encouragement of racists and white supremacists, xenophobia, etc. with disgust. That "disgust" is the proper reaction, and we should not give undue weight to unreliable sources which try to portray that disgust as improper. Defenders of Trump and his actions are the ones who are acting irrationally and immorally.
My point is that we must reconsider how we weight the content here. We should do the same as we do with conspiracy theories; we briefly state the theory, with very limited use of a few unreliable sources, and then give much more weight to demonstrating how the conspiracy theory is wrong by using far more RS. If those RS don't exist in sufficient numbers, then the article subject does not have notability enough in RS to exist as an article. Unreliable sources do not establish weight. That's what we should be doing here. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 04:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM also possible BLP violations PackMecEng ( talk) 15:48, 13 September 2018 (UTC)) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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One of the sources for the lede was Urban Dictionary [2], but the definition now at Urban Dictionary is the OPPOSITE of the way the term is actually used. It now says that the term applies to people who have been driven insane by their LOVE of Donald Trump. That is clearly not the actual meaning - demonstrating why we do not regard Urban Dictionary as a Reliable Source. Someone, in August 2018, replaced the original definition with a parody to make it mean the opposite. The original definition was no better; they are both totally partisan screeds. Rather than try to reconcile the obviously fraudulent definition that we now link to, I have removed Urban Dictionary as a source. But we really do need some more sources - neutral sources, not partisan - to establish what this is. -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
"This submission is currently being researched & evaluated!". PackMecEng ( talk) 20:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
The article says that "Trump Anxiety Disorder" is a synonym of "Trump Derangement Syndrome". However, the paragraphs that define the two terms describe two entirely different things. Trump Derangement Syndrome is essentially irrational behavior, while Trump Anxiety Disorder is described as essentially rational concern about the state of America under the Trump presidency. I tried to resolve this by simply removing the recently added paragraph on Trump Anxiety Disorder arguing that it is a different topic, but I was immediately reverted. Deli nk ( talk) 12:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
We should not call these two terms "synonyms"; they are very different. "Trump derangement syndrome" is not a real thing; it is an insult used by Trump's supporters to characterize people who oppose him as irrational. "Trump anxiety disorder" is reality-based, describing the rational fear of some people about Trump. IMO we should not mention the "anxiety disorder" here at all. This is an article about political discourse; it's not about how real people feel about real things. We need to make that clearer, particularly in the lede. I would propose we start a discussion here about how to modify the lede to make it clearer that this is not a real thing; it's a phrase used by partisans. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
This is important and noteworthy and deserves to br somewhere on this wiki. If not on this page perhaps it's own? -- 1.136.108.109 ( talk) 23:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
References
Here's a new found usage to consider. tried to get good RS, but this was also broadcast on TV
That's a WP:primary source. But I actually found two times that Paul has talked like this, reported in reliable secondary sources. I think we could mention both times. How about something like this:
-- MelanieN ( talk) 20:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Bought the farm ( talk) 14:40, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
We are not using this level of detail for every "use" of the term. In most cases the "use" gets one sentence in our article. I would suggest something like this:
The only reference I could find for Bila was the Daily Caller, which is not usually regarded as a Reliable Source, but I think it can be regarded as reliable for reporting what Bila said. The other references you cite - Huffington Post and USA Today - do not say anything about Trump derangement syndrome and thus are no use here. This article is just about that particular phrase; it's not about every time Trump supporters object to something a Trump opponent said. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:08, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
sorry, off topic. but I hope we're ready for Flo Bought the farm ( talk) 00:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
OK, I added it. I also streamlined some of the other examples of "use"; we don't need a paragraph every time someone utters the phrase. I would also like to get rid of the clutter of Tweets; can't we just paraphrase? -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
References
President Trump 'complicit' in storm. -- 1.136.108.109 ( talk) 23:53, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/09/trump-russia-us-sanctions-quiet-analysis — Paleo Neonate – 04:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I would like an appropriate label placed on this article, indicating that its neutrality has been disputed, as I have just demonstrated. KhazWolf ( talk) 01:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
{{
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help).
Wtmitchell
(talk) (earlier Boracay Bill)
11:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)"Trump Derangement Syndrome" first appeared on Twitter in early February, 2017. Three tweeters were trying to come up with a phrase to describe the hatred of President Trump that people were continuing to exhibit after his inauguration. "Trump Hysteria Syndrome" and "Trump Hysteria Disorder" were suggested but "Trump Derangement Syndrome" caught on primarily because tweeter Philip Schuyler used it regularly for months. Other tweeters, then people on Facebook, then the New York Post, and finally Fox News picked up the phrase. 172.100.197.132 ( talk) 11:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC) Philip Schuyler
Wikipedia:Attack page An attack page is a page, in any namespace, that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced. I will try anyway delete the page, because there about living people who can be hurt with such page. PoetVeches ( talk) 18:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence is a bit odd to me. It almost sounds non-neutral. I'd rather it read, "Trump derangement syndrome (TDS) is a neologism describing a reaction to United States President Donald Trump by various of his opponents..." or something like that. The part of the sentence "liberals, progressives, and Never Trump neoconservatives" reads almost like a very specific enemies list. Can't a Never Trump old school conservative have the syndrome too? Or just a contractor Trump might have stiffed? Also, saying it "describes a reaction" sort of makes it seem that TDS is definitely a real thing. I'm not saying it's not a real thing, but is the article supposed to read as though it is? Perhaps "describes an alleged reaction?" Or "describes an accusation?" Because, it seems to me, unless it has been established that TDS is a thing, we're talking about an accusation. Further, I don't think there is supposed to be a comma after 'neoconservatives' and before 'who' since the who clause is not optional. And, no. I don't have TDS. :) Yarkinator ( talk) 22:33, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Kinda obvious but I guess some people like to pretend otherwise. So here's a source [6]. Likewise, the fact that this is a rhetorical strategy to try and discredit any valid criticism of Trump is also well sourced, so please stop removing it. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:44, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
The origin of the term is traced to political columnist and commentator Charles Krauthammer... himself a harsh critic of Trumpso how does it reconcile and why are you rewriting a neutral lead without concensus? Why did you remove the LA Times and why did you cut-and-paste content from the body to the lead? Explain these changes. Cestlavieleir ( talk) 04:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
I first noticed Trump Derangement Syndrome a couple of years ago. I noticed it on TV and in social media and it was a bizarre phenomenon. People were crazily against Donald Trump and it was consuming them. People that I had admired were constantly tweeting weird and sometimes hateful things about the president to a point that I forgot why I had liked them in the first place. In a word they were “triggered”.
In recent days I have come to realize that there are actually two Trump Derangement syndromes, so I have labeled them Type A and Type B. Type A is the one that this article refers to. Type B is essentially the opposite. I have encountered pathological Trump supporters that regurgitate tired arguments, ignore facts, cling to irrelevant details and seemingly support Trump no matter what he does at any cost for specious and bizarre reasons.
I would like to create a separate article for Trump Derangement Syndrome - Type B and I would like to call Trump Derangement Syndrome in this article Type A. Is that ok? Do you have any thoughts or ideas? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks. Jasonagastrich ( talk) 22:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Due to persistent disruptive editing, despite multiple short term page protections, and invoking WP:ACDS, I have applied indefinite extended confirmed protection to this article. I apologize for any inconvenience. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 22:11, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
The term derogatory needs to be removed as derogatory is an opinion and community users should remain bias. AdamNeuegebauer ( talk) 23:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
"TDS" is an insult used by Donald Trump supporters and it should not be dignified as being a real thing in an encyclopedia which purports to present itself as a real encyclopedia, it cheapens and demeans Wiki and I for one was dismayed to see it here pretending to be a real thing. Someone I spoke with here today said that this article did not say that TDS was a medical condition, it doesn't have to, "syndrome" is a medical condition without qualification: It is a medical term and obviously there is no syndrome called Trump Derangement Syndrome in any DSM I have ever read, and Krauthammer was not a practicing psychiatrist anyway and any MD who diagnoses anyone with anything would have to make that diagnosis in person even if it were a real psychiatric condition which it is not. "A syndrome is a set of medical signs and symptoms that are correlated with each other and, often, with a particular disease or disorder.[1] The word derives from the Greek σύνδρομον, meaning "concurrence".[2] /info/en/?search=Syndrome
I would like to open this up for deletion. Bobyoung53 ( talk) 01:29, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
The primary definition of TDS (first paragraph) cites 4 sources: CNN, AP, Chicago Tribune and The New York Times. Given these organisation's negative bias towards Trump (as reported by CNN themselves), this would seem a poor choice of source. If TDS is, in fact, a real phenomenon then it is reasonable to suppose that these organisations are inflicted and, therefore, the least able to define the phenomenon. The people who coined and use the term should be cited to define it so that the definition reflects the meaning intended when the term is used. 62.255.48.40 ( talk) 12:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC) Edit: further, I would say that the current (at time of writing) cited definition should be given in a "Criticisms" section, since the definition posed by these sources seeks to illegitimise the term.
I don't agree with this characterization at all. People who are indifferent or disdainful of the entire political class may use the term. I Would like to see a more neutral tone here. Trump has found a way to get under the skin of his opponents. Observing their hysteria is non-partisan. The term TDS may be used by non-partisan bystanders or those who do not support Trump. If you can't see this, then you might be too close to the issue. Take care. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.50.52.10 ( talk) 13:00, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
The first couple of phrases define TDS as a "derogatory term for criticism of, or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational and have little regard towards Trump's actual positions or actions taken." And claim that "the term has been used by Trump supporters to discredit criticism of his actions, as a way of "reframing" the discussion by suggesting his opponents are incapable of accurately perceiving the world." Yet the definition of the term is credited, among others, to Fareed Zakaria and Charles Krauthammer, critics of trump who defined the term as "hatred of President Trump so intense that it impairs people’s judgment" and "Trump-induced 'general hysteria' among the chattering classes, producing an 'inability to distinguish between legitimate policy differences and ... signs of psychic pathology' in the President's behavior". Neither of these are meant to discredit critics of the president.
So which one is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.88.206 ( talk) 09:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
"...a derogatory term for criticism or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational..."
So would you describe unicorn as "a word for an animal alleged to have one horn"? I doubt it. It's a word for an animal that has one horn. The accuracy of the usage is a different matter. Similarly, idiot doesn't mean "a person alleged to be stupid", it means "a person who is stupid". The fact that a term can sometimes be misapplied does not change the intended meaning of the term, and I suspect that the start of this article is showing a touch of non-neutrality with the aim of discrediting certain groups. Equinox ◑ 16:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree, and I'll point to MSNBC, in the hostile actions that Iran was preforming they went from suggesting Trump was going to drop the bomb, to calling him weak for not going to war, to calling him a war monger, to calling him weak again for not going to war with Iran. That's not logical thinking, that's taking a paranoid contrarian stance. That is where TDS is used. It's also used for people that attack, verbally and physically, anyone that they don't agree with. This is paranoia and pathology. You see the term used to describe someone that throws an egg at a man just for wearing a red hat, you don't see it used for someone that sits down ant actually has a dialogue. ( 98.228.230.125 ( talk) 03:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC))
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The description of this syndrome is inaccurate to what Conservatives actually use and mean by this. This is phrased from a pretty biased standpoint, and since it is a conservative-used and conservatively-created phrase, it should be described from someone who actually understands the meaning. My edit suggestion is as follows:
Description of what TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome): The Conservative-made phrase to mean someone who has lost sense of reality out of negativity and hate directed towards Donald Trump. Specifically aimed to those who scream, attack, incoherently speak, and refuse to slow down to have a respectful conversation about their political views. 50.35.122.45 ( talk) 02:17, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Where is the reliable source that says TDS is "that are alleged to be irrational"? It should simply say "that are irrational". Putting the opinionated word "alleged" there is violating NPOV. And the accuser should always be the first one to produce evidence, not the defendant. So in this case, you should produce evidence that this is "alleged", not the other way around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.140.160.35 ( talk) 17:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Revert Chicago Tribune line-
Also in July 2018, Eric Zorn stated in the Chicago Tribune that "'Trump Derangement Syndrome' afflicts Trump supporters more than it does critics of the president" as it is "the delusion suffered by those who still think he’s going to make this country a better place for average people."
It's an opinion of the columnist without any factual basis. This article is already loaded with weasel words, it doesn't need pure conjecture to boot Slywriter ( talk) 21:03, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
This term was originally coined to describe CONSERVATIVES, for their unreasonable and baseless hatred of Hillary Rodham Clinton. It was adapted to describe the same in relation to Barack Hussein Obama. After being used to describe slobbering Republicans in their cilt-like worship of Donald John Trump, Trump cult followers plagiarized the term to describe people who did not spend their lives worshipping Trump. Plain Dark Sedan ( talk) 12:40, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly, this article is again completely skewed towards "conspiracy theory" type labeling. Even mainstream sources disagree with the skewness of this article:
Have fun "unbiased" editors! 2601:602:9200:1310:C1E3:118A:73EB:2BA2 ( talk) 18:31, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
There's not much sense in crying about a satirical term first generated in response to psychologically unhinged haters of Hillary Clinton, for whom this term was originally derived as a description of. Afterward,it was modified to describe Obama Haters, then Trump Lovers.
It's an inherently biased term regardless of use, so your complaining is absurd to say the least. Plain Dark Sedan ( talk) 16:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
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Please revert the last edit. The article itself talks about some conservatives being on the receiving end of being accused of having "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (Bret Stephens for example). Davidb1988 ( talk) 03:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
That's the one! Davidb1988 ( talk) 17:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Can someone write in the header that this is also known as Trump Anxiety Disorder? This source talks about it, and this source as well. -- 2001:8003:4023:D900:E56F:48DE:190B:3347 ( talk) 02:18, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
I just removed a recent addition to the lede [1] about a survey among members of the "Presidents & Executive Politics Section of the American Political Science Association". There was nothing in the material about Trump Derangement Syndrome which is the subject of this article. Furthermore, I don't see why a survey of one section of one professional association should be included in Wikipedia anywhere. And I found their results to be highly questionable: they claimed Trump was the "most polarizing president in history" (I think Abe Lincoln might have a claim to that title - multiple states seceded just because he was elected president - and anyhow we would have to say "respondents believed" rather than asserting it as fact) and the worst president in history (we have repeatedly refused to put that kind of assertion in the main Donald Trump article). Open to discussion of course. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:43, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Why are people so 'deranged' about Trump?" some might ask. Well, might it be because he's broadly perceived by subject matter experts as the most polarizing president in history, so maybe it isn't really "derangement" at all?That makes good sense as original research. But we don't do original research here. Where does it say - in a Reliable Source - that TDS is the result of him being so polarizing? I think we need to be careful to keep to the actual subject of this article and not bring in stuff that hasn't been related to the subject by a Reliable Source. Not as "examples" of anti-Trump actions that the editor felt showed TDS (I have recently deleted several such), and not as justifications for why people might feel that way. -- MelanieN ( talk) 03:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
The tone of this article seems to move fairly rapidly from a discussion of the meaning and etymology of the phrase directly into presumptive language and quotations that beg the question that this is a real phenomenon as opposed to a subjective interpretation informed by confirmation bias, without presenting adequate counterpoints to balance. This is a controversial phrase used to demean detractors of the president and publicly devalue their opinions, and whether or not he deserves to be demeaned or those detractors do indeed suffer from being "unable to distinguish fantasy from reality," this article should maintain as neutral a tone as possible. Additionally, does this really need its own article rather than a redirect to a section of a larger "Presidency of Donald Trump" article?
@ Volunteer Marek: Regarding the location of the paragraph beginning with "The use of the term by some on the right...", the IP editor's summary, which I agreed with, was "Deleted an excerpt that should be under “Use” of the term rather than the main definition. It was an opinion explaining how/why the term is used and was intentionally placed with the definition of the controversial term to make the opinion of one of the parties who dislike the term more visible. It serves no benefit to the actual definition of the term, but could be moved to the “Use” section like similar opinions that already exist there." Could you clarify your disagreement? Cheers, Λυδ α cιτγ 01:31, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Source. -- 1.136.108.0 ( talk) 19:45, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to propose removing the first sentence of the "uses" section for the following reasons:
1.) As I'm now realizing from the above discussion, it seems there is a general consensus that all hints at this page that Trump Derangement Syndrome is anything other than base ad hominem fabricated whole cloth from genuine criticism of Trump policies should be scrutinized and reworded. The first sentence (Michael Davis claims that "conservatives and progressives appear equally susceptible.") is a perfect example of how a sentence in this article SHOULDN'T be formulated because it lends a sense that this is an actual malady.
and
2.) The source used to supply that sentence has no business being included in this encyclopedia... Especially if we're just using it to quote a fringy writer withuot establishing notability on this topic or anything even tangentially related.
198.119.225.212 (
talk)
22:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Two examples of anti-Trump rallies or demonstrations have just been added to this article, under a section titled “Manifestations”. Classifying these incidents - one protest march, one fistfight - as “Trump Derangement Syndrome” appears to be WP:Original research. None of the five references provided mention Trump Derangement Syndrome, so there is no justification for including them in this article. Accordingly I am going to delete the two paragraphs until sources can be provided identifying these, or any other overt actions, as actual examples of TDS. All the examples given under “Definition” involve a manner of speaking, an extreme or persistent criticism of everything Trump does. Nobody that I have seen has tried to claim that every protest march, or every fight between supporters and opponents, is an example of this so-called syndrome. Pinging User:Let us eat lettuce. -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:33, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
In the USES section above, we see the problem of dealing with a misleading POV attack phrase like "Trump Derangement Syndrome". We're taking a nasty nickname which would normally be of no significance or notability and dignifying it by allowing use of unreliable sources (the ones who use it) to document its uses. Odd situation. We're giving undue weight to a fringe POV because it apparently passed the basic notabilty criteria for an article here.
Sources like Herman Cain, Fox News, and James Woods are hardly reliable for anything other than their own POV. Such use must be attributed carefully and not presented as if it was true, just that it was stated as the fringe POV it is. This sentence is quite revealing, as it's unattributed and is the POV of the editor who wrote it above: "Scarborough was called out for his derangement and misrepresentation of facts by some media outlets." He's not deranged, nor did he misrepresent facts. On the contrary; he fact checks.
So how should we do this right? We shouldn't give undue weight to the phrase, but give more weight to the RS which show how misleading the phrase actually is.
Here's our lead:
"Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is a neologism used by its adherents to describe a reaction to United States President Donald Trump by liberals, progressives, and anti-Trump conservatives, who are said to respond to Trump's statements and political actions irrationally, with little regard to Trump's actual position or action taken."
It is not "irrational" to respond to Trump's falsehoods, immorality, ignorance, vile language, encouragement of racists and white supremacists, xenophobia, etc. with disgust. That "disgust" is the proper reaction, and we should not give undue weight to unreliable sources which try to portray that disgust as improper. Defenders of Trump and his actions are the ones who are acting irrationally and immorally.
My point is that we must reconsider how we weight the content here. We should do the same as we do with conspiracy theories; we briefly state the theory, with very limited use of a few unreliable sources, and then give much more weight to demonstrating how the conspiracy theory is wrong by using far more RS. If those RS don't exist in sufficient numbers, then the article subject does not have notability enough in RS to exist as an article. Unreliable sources do not establish weight. That's what we should be doing here. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 04:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM also possible BLP violations PackMecEng ( talk) 15:48, 13 September 2018 (UTC)) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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One of the sources for the lede was Urban Dictionary [2], but the definition now at Urban Dictionary is the OPPOSITE of the way the term is actually used. It now says that the term applies to people who have been driven insane by their LOVE of Donald Trump. That is clearly not the actual meaning - demonstrating why we do not regard Urban Dictionary as a Reliable Source. Someone, in August 2018, replaced the original definition with a parody to make it mean the opposite. The original definition was no better; they are both totally partisan screeds. Rather than try to reconcile the obviously fraudulent definition that we now link to, I have removed Urban Dictionary as a source. But we really do need some more sources - neutral sources, not partisan - to establish what this is. -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
"This submission is currently being researched & evaluated!". PackMecEng ( talk) 20:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
The article says that "Trump Anxiety Disorder" is a synonym of "Trump Derangement Syndrome". However, the paragraphs that define the two terms describe two entirely different things. Trump Derangement Syndrome is essentially irrational behavior, while Trump Anxiety Disorder is described as essentially rational concern about the state of America under the Trump presidency. I tried to resolve this by simply removing the recently added paragraph on Trump Anxiety Disorder arguing that it is a different topic, but I was immediately reverted. Deli nk ( talk) 12:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
We should not call these two terms "synonyms"; they are very different. "Trump derangement syndrome" is not a real thing; it is an insult used by Trump's supporters to characterize people who oppose him as irrational. "Trump anxiety disorder" is reality-based, describing the rational fear of some people about Trump. IMO we should not mention the "anxiety disorder" here at all. This is an article about political discourse; it's not about how real people feel about real things. We need to make that clearer, particularly in the lede. I would propose we start a discussion here about how to modify the lede to make it clearer that this is not a real thing; it's a phrase used by partisans. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
This is important and noteworthy and deserves to br somewhere on this wiki. If not on this page perhaps it's own? -- 1.136.108.109 ( talk) 23:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
References
Here's a new found usage to consider. tried to get good RS, but this was also broadcast on TV
That's a WP:primary source. But I actually found two times that Paul has talked like this, reported in reliable secondary sources. I think we could mention both times. How about something like this:
-- MelanieN ( talk) 20:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Bought the farm ( talk) 14:40, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
We are not using this level of detail for every "use" of the term. In most cases the "use" gets one sentence in our article. I would suggest something like this:
The only reference I could find for Bila was the Daily Caller, which is not usually regarded as a Reliable Source, but I think it can be regarded as reliable for reporting what Bila said. The other references you cite - Huffington Post and USA Today - do not say anything about Trump derangement syndrome and thus are no use here. This article is just about that particular phrase; it's not about every time Trump supporters object to something a Trump opponent said. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:08, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
sorry, off topic. but I hope we're ready for Flo Bought the farm ( talk) 00:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
OK, I added it. I also streamlined some of the other examples of "use"; we don't need a paragraph every time someone utters the phrase. I would also like to get rid of the clutter of Tweets; can't we just paraphrase? -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
References
President Trump 'complicit' in storm. -- 1.136.108.109 ( talk) 23:53, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/09/trump-russia-us-sanctions-quiet-analysis — Paleo Neonate – 04:44, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I would like an appropriate label placed on this article, indicating that its neutrality has been disputed, as I have just demonstrated. KhazWolf ( talk) 01:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
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11:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)"Trump Derangement Syndrome" first appeared on Twitter in early February, 2017. Three tweeters were trying to come up with a phrase to describe the hatred of President Trump that people were continuing to exhibit after his inauguration. "Trump Hysteria Syndrome" and "Trump Hysteria Disorder" were suggested but "Trump Derangement Syndrome" caught on primarily because tweeter Philip Schuyler used it regularly for months. Other tweeters, then people on Facebook, then the New York Post, and finally Fox News picked up the phrase. 172.100.197.132 ( talk) 11:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC) Philip Schuyler
Wikipedia:Attack page An attack page is a page, in any namespace, that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced. I will try anyway delete the page, because there about living people who can be hurt with such page. PoetVeches ( talk) 18:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence is a bit odd to me. It almost sounds non-neutral. I'd rather it read, "Trump derangement syndrome (TDS) is a neologism describing a reaction to United States President Donald Trump by various of his opponents..." or something like that. The part of the sentence "liberals, progressives, and Never Trump neoconservatives" reads almost like a very specific enemies list. Can't a Never Trump old school conservative have the syndrome too? Or just a contractor Trump might have stiffed? Also, saying it "describes a reaction" sort of makes it seem that TDS is definitely a real thing. I'm not saying it's not a real thing, but is the article supposed to read as though it is? Perhaps "describes an alleged reaction?" Or "describes an accusation?" Because, it seems to me, unless it has been established that TDS is a thing, we're talking about an accusation. Further, I don't think there is supposed to be a comma after 'neoconservatives' and before 'who' since the who clause is not optional. And, no. I don't have TDS. :) Yarkinator ( talk) 22:33, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Kinda obvious but I guess some people like to pretend otherwise. So here's a source [6]. Likewise, the fact that this is a rhetorical strategy to try and discredit any valid criticism of Trump is also well sourced, so please stop removing it. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:44, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
The origin of the term is traced to political columnist and commentator Charles Krauthammer... himself a harsh critic of Trumpso how does it reconcile and why are you rewriting a neutral lead without concensus? Why did you remove the LA Times and why did you cut-and-paste content from the body to the lead? Explain these changes. Cestlavieleir ( talk) 04:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
I first noticed Trump Derangement Syndrome a couple of years ago. I noticed it on TV and in social media and it was a bizarre phenomenon. People were crazily against Donald Trump and it was consuming them. People that I had admired were constantly tweeting weird and sometimes hateful things about the president to a point that I forgot why I had liked them in the first place. In a word they were “triggered”.
In recent days I have come to realize that there are actually two Trump Derangement syndromes, so I have labeled them Type A and Type B. Type A is the one that this article refers to. Type B is essentially the opposite. I have encountered pathological Trump supporters that regurgitate tired arguments, ignore facts, cling to irrelevant details and seemingly support Trump no matter what he does at any cost for specious and bizarre reasons.
I would like to create a separate article for Trump Derangement Syndrome - Type B and I would like to call Trump Derangement Syndrome in this article Type A. Is that ok? Do you have any thoughts or ideas? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks. Jasonagastrich ( talk) 22:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Due to persistent disruptive editing, despite multiple short term page protections, and invoking WP:ACDS, I have applied indefinite extended confirmed protection to this article. I apologize for any inconvenience. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 22:11, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
The term derogatory needs to be removed as derogatory is an opinion and community users should remain bias. AdamNeuegebauer ( talk) 23:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
"TDS" is an insult used by Donald Trump supporters and it should not be dignified as being a real thing in an encyclopedia which purports to present itself as a real encyclopedia, it cheapens and demeans Wiki and I for one was dismayed to see it here pretending to be a real thing. Someone I spoke with here today said that this article did not say that TDS was a medical condition, it doesn't have to, "syndrome" is a medical condition without qualification: It is a medical term and obviously there is no syndrome called Trump Derangement Syndrome in any DSM I have ever read, and Krauthammer was not a practicing psychiatrist anyway and any MD who diagnoses anyone with anything would have to make that diagnosis in person even if it were a real psychiatric condition which it is not. "A syndrome is a set of medical signs and symptoms that are correlated with each other and, often, with a particular disease or disorder.[1] The word derives from the Greek σύνδρομον, meaning "concurrence".[2] /info/en/?search=Syndrome
I would like to open this up for deletion. Bobyoung53 ( talk) 01:29, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
The primary definition of TDS (first paragraph) cites 4 sources: CNN, AP, Chicago Tribune and The New York Times. Given these organisation's negative bias towards Trump (as reported by CNN themselves), this would seem a poor choice of source. If TDS is, in fact, a real phenomenon then it is reasonable to suppose that these organisations are inflicted and, therefore, the least able to define the phenomenon. The people who coined and use the term should be cited to define it so that the definition reflects the meaning intended when the term is used. 62.255.48.40 ( talk) 12:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC) Edit: further, I would say that the current (at time of writing) cited definition should be given in a "Criticisms" section, since the definition posed by these sources seeks to illegitimise the term.
I don't agree with this characterization at all. People who are indifferent or disdainful of the entire political class may use the term. I Would like to see a more neutral tone here. Trump has found a way to get under the skin of his opponents. Observing their hysteria is non-partisan. The term TDS may be used by non-partisan bystanders or those who do not support Trump. If you can't see this, then you might be too close to the issue. Take care. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.50.52.10 ( talk) 13:00, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
The first couple of phrases define TDS as a "derogatory term for criticism of, or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational and have little regard towards Trump's actual positions or actions taken." And claim that "the term has been used by Trump supporters to discredit criticism of his actions, as a way of "reframing" the discussion by suggesting his opponents are incapable of accurately perceiving the world." Yet the definition of the term is credited, among others, to Fareed Zakaria and Charles Krauthammer, critics of trump who defined the term as "hatred of President Trump so intense that it impairs people’s judgment" and "Trump-induced 'general hysteria' among the chattering classes, producing an 'inability to distinguish between legitimate policy differences and ... signs of psychic pathology' in the President's behavior". Neither of these are meant to discredit critics of the president.
So which one is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.88.206 ( talk) 09:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
"...a derogatory term for criticism or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are alleged to be irrational..."
So would you describe unicorn as "a word for an animal alleged to have one horn"? I doubt it. It's a word for an animal that has one horn. The accuracy of the usage is a different matter. Similarly, idiot doesn't mean "a person alleged to be stupid", it means "a person who is stupid". The fact that a term can sometimes be misapplied does not change the intended meaning of the term, and I suspect that the start of this article is showing a touch of non-neutrality with the aim of discrediting certain groups. Equinox ◑ 16:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree, and I'll point to MSNBC, in the hostile actions that Iran was preforming they went from suggesting Trump was going to drop the bomb, to calling him weak for not going to war, to calling him a war monger, to calling him weak again for not going to war with Iran. That's not logical thinking, that's taking a paranoid contrarian stance. That is where TDS is used. It's also used for people that attack, verbally and physically, anyone that they don't agree with. This is paranoia and pathology. You see the term used to describe someone that throws an egg at a man just for wearing a red hat, you don't see it used for someone that sits down ant actually has a dialogue. ( 98.228.230.125 ( talk) 03:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC))
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The description of this syndrome is inaccurate to what Conservatives actually use and mean by this. This is phrased from a pretty biased standpoint, and since it is a conservative-used and conservatively-created phrase, it should be described from someone who actually understands the meaning. My edit suggestion is as follows:
Description of what TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome): The Conservative-made phrase to mean someone who has lost sense of reality out of negativity and hate directed towards Donald Trump. Specifically aimed to those who scream, attack, incoherently speak, and refuse to slow down to have a respectful conversation about their political views. 50.35.122.45 ( talk) 02:17, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Where is the reliable source that says TDS is "that are alleged to be irrational"? It should simply say "that are irrational". Putting the opinionated word "alleged" there is violating NPOV. And the accuser should always be the first one to produce evidence, not the defendant. So in this case, you should produce evidence that this is "alleged", not the other way around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.140.160.35 ( talk) 17:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Revert Chicago Tribune line-
Also in July 2018, Eric Zorn stated in the Chicago Tribune that "'Trump Derangement Syndrome' afflicts Trump supporters more than it does critics of the president" as it is "the delusion suffered by those who still think he’s going to make this country a better place for average people."
It's an opinion of the columnist without any factual basis. This article is already loaded with weasel words, it doesn't need pure conjecture to boot Slywriter ( talk) 21:03, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
This term was originally coined to describe CONSERVATIVES, for their unreasonable and baseless hatred of Hillary Rodham Clinton. It was adapted to describe the same in relation to Barack Hussein Obama. After being used to describe slobbering Republicans in their cilt-like worship of Donald John Trump, Trump cult followers plagiarized the term to describe people who did not spend their lives worshipping Trump. Plain Dark Sedan ( talk) 12:40, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Unsurprisingly, this article is again completely skewed towards "conspiracy theory" type labeling. Even mainstream sources disagree with the skewness of this article:
Have fun "unbiased" editors! 2601:602:9200:1310:C1E3:118A:73EB:2BA2 ( talk) 18:31, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
There's not much sense in crying about a satirical term first generated in response to psychologically unhinged haters of Hillary Clinton, for whom this term was originally derived as a description of. Afterward,it was modified to describe Obama Haters, then Trump Lovers.
It's an inherently biased term regardless of use, so your complaining is absurd to say the least. Plain Dark Sedan ( talk) 16:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)