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The True-believer syndrome "is not a disorder that is accepted or treated by psychiatrists". Could someone please add why? <KF> 15:52, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have rearranged the material in this article because I believe its former sequence carried excessive pro-skeptical POV. This coined term cannot be presented as a generally-accepted objective psychological condition when it's not in the DSM and when psychiatrists generally don't treat it. It originates with Lamar and the skeptics' camp (there is no citation to any other group accepting or using it), and should be labeled as belonging to them. Now, I don't happen to think Jim Jones was doing miracles either, but an objectively-manifesting mental condition like schizophrenia, this thing is not.
By rearranging the article this way, we can also remove the one proffered reason why psychiatrists don't generally treat this suggested condition. This is beneficial because, based on the entries above, it appears we were only conjecturing about that reason, anyway. -- Gary D 04:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I want to remove the followin subsentence that I find very POV: "and remains a largely rhetorical device used by skeptics in the debate over the existence of certain sorts of paranormal phenomena." I mean, labelling an opionion as a rethorical device is just very POV. Andries 19:47, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I believe the link to this enmtry at Shroud of Turin was suppressed. Is this True-believer syndrome in operation? Wetman 21:55, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I see the True believer refers to this article. That may be wrong. The true believer syndrome refers only to belief in the paranormal as far as I know. Hence I think Sam's edits are not good. I have to admit that I haven't read Eric Hoffer's book The true believer: the psychology of mass movements. Does he use the term true believer syndrome or just true believer? Andries 07:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The term is widely used, and not just for situations involving belief in the paranormal. I understand the original intent of the term, and I understand how terms evolve. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:36, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Isn't immunity to cognitive dissonance pretty much synonymous with the True believer syndrome? -- 212.10.235.140 22:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It is my intent to remove the following paragraph: "For example, skeptics generally agree there is sufficient proof to conclude that the alleged miracles of Uri Geller and Sathya Sai Baba are or were false; they therefore have often reasoned that believers who have been given the extant evidence of fraud in these cases, and yet continue to believe in these men, are described by this condition." Unless this paragraph can be referenced by reputable sources, it is going to be deleted. No original research allowed (a precedent set by Andries). SSS108 talk- email 21:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is my intention to add the relevant information that Keene has no credentials or education in psychology or any other related field. Therefore, the definition of "True Believer's Syndrome" was coined by a layman. SSS108 talk- email 21:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, unfortunately, there are no degrees in "psychic fraud". Unless you can tell me Keene's credentials, he is a layman. SSS108 talk- email 20:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Keene's experience as a psychic fraud did not confer upon him, directly or indirectly, any degrees in psychology or the medical field. Keene coined a term that appears to be a medical term. He is a layman, not a professional, no matter how you look at it. SSS108 talk- email 19:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Reputable references are needed for the following sections:
Where did all this information come from? SSS108 talk- email 23:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how is it "redundant" to say Carroll is not a psychologist? Where is this fact already stated? Carroll made a psychiatric assessment of true believers. He does not possess the credentials as a psychologist and this fact should be stated to maintain transparency. If a person said apostates suffered from blame and victim mentality and displayed characteristics comparable to neurotics, and this person did not possess credentials in psychology, I think it would become apparent why it is important to mention he does not possess the proper credentials to make psychological assessments of others. Why are you trying to withhold this fact? SSS108 talk- email 07:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, where are the reputable references for the following comment: "Carroll holds the opinion that the True Believer's Syndrome fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion." This comment is not on Carroll's entry for "True Believer Syndrome". SSS108 talk- email 06:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, no where did Carroll state that True Believer Syndrome (TBS) fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion. You obviously failed to understand the context to Carroll's comments. When he said "by definition", he is referring to True Believer Syndrome, not the psychiatric definition of a delusion (as he does not provide the psychiatric definition for a delusion, but rather provided the definition for TBS). The entire text reads: "Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are by definition deluded in the psychiatric sense of the term: they believe what is false and are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error." You incorrectly paraphrased Carroll and attributed a comment to him that is not supported by the text in his book. SSS108 talk- email 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, back to square one: Where is it stated that: "Carroll holds the opinion that the True Believer's Syndrome fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion"? No matter how you look at his comment, he never said that. Substanitate your comments. SSS108 talk- email 20:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Does this mean that people who have had strange experiences, paranormal experiences happening to them are nuts ? And this is a simple, honest question, no more, no less. Someone who has had these weird experiences, investigate paranormal matters may actually get the idea from this article that they are to be ridiculed, insulted as pursuant to the Robertson Panel protocol, Project Grudge if the encounter was a UFO, alien. This article may offend those that are religious, be they Christians (someone may E-mail a copy of this article to Pat Robertson, the famous TV/radio preacher who is on the 700 Club if they see it.), Moslem, Jewish, citing that this article is "The work of Satan". I am NOT accusing, etc. anyone here at all. Just stating some major concerns. Martial Law 06:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC) :)
I have seen Pat Robertson's TV show, and the 700 club sometimes sponsors religious themed movies that depict "The Last Days", and this sort of material is featured, as is other material, is featured as "Part of the Satanic New World Order" to destroy the Church, etc. until The Judgement happens. I have one of these tapes, called "Left Behind." It has material that is claimed to be from academia and famous skeptics that ridicules the religious people, saying they're mentally ill, are criminals, which turns out to be from Satan in the movie, as The Judgement commences. It is a obscure movie. Again, I am NOT accusing anyone,etc. at all, just stating some concerns, asking questions. Martial Law 06:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC) :)
This entry is ridiculous. It's more about my Skeptic's Dictionary entry on "true-believer syndrome" than it is on the alleged topic. It appears to be written by someone who does not like what I write. An informant tells me it is written by a follower of Sai Baba who does not like what I say about him. Articles like this will destroy whatever credibility Wikipedia has. The culprit, I'm told, is userid SSS108 who has the real name Gerald Joe Moreno. If so, Mr. Moreno should write his own book and not use Wikipedia to rag on mine.--Robert T. Carroll
I happen to agree with Mr. Carroll. This entry is totally ridiculous. However, Mr. Carroll is placing the blame on the wrong person. The person who created this entry and added information about Carroll is none other than Andries Ref 1 & Ref 2. I simply provided additional, referenced information about Carroll that readers should be aware of, especially his self-professed bias.
On a sidenote, I suggest that you, Mr. Carroll, verify whatever information you have been sent about me with me. To accept the words of others without caring to contact the person in question and verifying that information first-hand is not (in my opinion) very scientific, wise or rational. Ironically, accepting "informant's" second-hand data and blindly believing it happens to be a characteristic of a "True Believer". SSS108 talk- email 15:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Bubba73, well the question is about whom should be cited and referenced in regards to "True Believer Syndrome". It is clear that the term originated (from what can be assessed) from Keene, not Carroll. The reason why Carroll's entry was cited is because Andries wanted to have SSB's name in this entry so he could push his POV on the SSB article by referencing this page there. As long as Carroll is cited, the other facts about him need to be cited as well. Also, the topic in question has to do with skepticism and religious belief. Carroll's atheistic beliefs are relevant to this discussion and he even discusses them in the book that is being referenced (and it is even discussed on the entry for his name on Wikipedia). If this topic was not relevant to skepticism and religious beliefs, then I would agree that reference to his atheism would be irrelevant. Carroll is openly an atheist Reference (which I personally have no problems with, by the way). Readers need to know this fact because readers should be aware of any possible source of bias. If this was a discussion about a term deriding skeptics and it was being sourced to an openly critical Christian, there is little doubt that fact would be divulged. SSS108 talk- email 19:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
And there are literally thousands of accounts that state that SSB's miracles are genuine and true. Especially the ones that occur away from his physical form. Andries, even your good friend, Robert Priddy (an Anti-Sai Activist), to this day still states that he believes that SSB has genuine paranormal powers and he does not regard him as an ordinary human being. When even ex-followers still believe that SSB has genuine powers, it is not difficult to understand why his devotees believe he can allegedly work miracles. SSS108 talk- email 19:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Listing the affiliation or bias of an author, is possible and encouraged, if that bias and affiliaton is verifiable, that is. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I finished the book, The Psychic Mafia, last night. The only references to "True Believer Syndrome" are the 2 cited earlier. I also found only one reference to "True Believers" on page 75: "Eventually he would become one of the true believers who felt a pride in belonging to such a church and - the name of the game - gave feely." That's it.
Strangely enough, the forward to The Psychic Mafia was written by the Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher who openly professed belief in mediums and paranormal manifestations even though The Psychic Mafia discussed "true believers" and how they persist in believing mediumship and other paranormal phenomena despite "overwhelming evidence" to the contrary! Here are some gems taken from the forward to "The Psychic Mafia", by Rauscher: "This may sound strange coming from one who accepts the reality of paranormal manifestations (as attested in my own book, The Spiritual Frontier, an account of my psychic exploration)...Now I believe that 'good mediums' exist. I believe I have met some of them. Not all mediums are dishonest, and this book is not intended to discredit those who are legitimate. Nor will it do so. The honest psychic or medium has nothing to fear from this book...The only medium threatened by this book is the fraudulent one." After reading this forward, and taking into consideration this discussion about "True Believer Syndrome", the entire book left me rolling my eyes. SSS108 talk- email 15:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
True Believer Syndrome is specifically about psychic phenomena. It is amusing that Keene concedes belief in the same psychic phenomena that he attempts to expose. I do not object to the reference about Keene's belief in God being removed. But the other references are most certainly relevant to the entry. SSS108 talk- email 21:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it is important to mention that the Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher, who wrote the forward to The Psychic Mafia, professed a belief in mediums and psychic phenomena even though he discussed true-believer syndrome. The relevant passages, from Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher, read: "This may sound strange coming from one who accepts the reality of paranormal manifestations (as attested in my own book, The Spiritual Frontier, an account of my psychic exploration). However, I have spent as much time arguing some people out of an overly credulous attitude toward the subject as arguing into being open-minded towards it. As Lamar's story devastatingly reveals, the greatest friend the fraudulent medium has is overbelief on the part of his victims. Lamar calls it 'true believer syndrome'. The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic, but seemingly, even sanity...Now I believe that 'good mediums' exist. I believe I have met some of them. Not all mediums are dishonest, and this book is not intended to discredit those who are legitimate. Nor will it do so. The honest psychic or medium has nothing to fear from this book...The only medium threatened by this book is the fraudulent one." It appears to me that there needs to be a clear distinction between the type of belief that true-believer syndrome embodies and general belief in paranormal events. There is a significant difference. Both Rauscher and Keene think it is perfectly acceptable to believe in mediums, psychic phenomena, ESP and life and after death and not suffer from true believer syndrome! It appears that true-believer syndrome specifically and exclusively applies to someone who believes in something that has been openly faked, with a full admission of fraud, and a person persists in believing the faked event. Of course, all of this information compromises its usage by Carroll (as there are no admissions of open fraud from any of the people he cites). The history behind this term gives the impression that many use it without knowing what it is. This is very important information. SSS108 talk- email 23:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Bubba, there is a difference between "true-believers" and "true-believer syndrome". The term "true-believers" is more defined by skeptics and refers to people who believe in paranormal phenomena, such as paranormal manifestations, mediums, ESP, life after death and psychic occurrences, etc. (which would qualify both Keene and Rauscher as being "true believers"). To equate "true-believers" with "true-believer syndrome" is misleading and the two should be separated and differentiated. Perhaps you can work on an article about "true-believers"? SSS108 talk- email 19:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
In light of the new information about this entry, and Carroll's objection about too much inclusion of his info in this entry, I propose the deletion for the following section:
This information is redundant and irrelevant as it has already been described by Keene. It would make the article more direct and succint, in my opinion. I'll wait for consensus first. SSS108 talk- email 16:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Bubba. I will wait for Andries to weigh in. If the first section to the proposed removal is kept, I think it is only fair to keep the sentence and reference for: "Carroll also stated in his book that his opinions are not meant to present a balanced view on occult subjects." This self-professed bias is wholly relevant. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 17:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose the last two paragraphs be deleted. I have rewritten my Skeptic's Dictionary article on this topic and both quotes from me are no longer in the article cited. Also, the editorial comment that concludes this article is gratuitous and irrelevant to the article. I apologize to User:SSS108. I would have contacted you if I had known how. Andries, I think those who have moved this article in the direction to be about Keene are going the right way. He is the one who suggested that true believer syndrome be studied scientically. However, his religious views seem irrelevant. His concern was with people who use mediums to contact dead people and who, even when presented with clear evidence of fraud on the part of the medium, do not give up their belief that the medium really did contact the dead. Keene's concern was not with the paranormal as such but with spiritualism. 165.196.235.45 16:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)R. Carroll
I chopped out the following paragraph because the link seems tenuous and like Original Research. Could someone provide a 3rd party who has made the link including a WP:CITE before readding?
Ashmoo 03:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely the whole paragraph cites Kuhn's book (which is incredibly well known). Simply describing similar phenomena in a well-regarded academic book hardly seems like origina research - Vaughan 08:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The article states that 'true believer syndrome' "is not a scientific term and as such is not used by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or doctors." I propose the phrase "Although not a psychologist" when referring to me be removed. Since the term is not a medical or diagnostic term in psychology, noting that I am not a psychologist is irrelevant.
Also, the last sentence, while true, has nothing to do with "true believer syndrome" and should be removed.
165.196.235.45 16:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)R. Carroll
Two of the examples listed have NPOV problems. They make implications not supported yet by available evidence or currently not provable one way or the other with current science. First, the example of crop circles is not written in an NPOV way. To me, it implies that all crop circles are hoaxes something that I believe is not yet proven. While this might be true, I believe that that possibility that aliens did indeed create some crop circles can't be completely ruled out based on lack of evidence as to how in fact they where created. Thus we need to rewrite the example to be clear that we are not talking about all crop circles but only those in which their is solid evidence of them being a hoax. Second, the example about The Heaven's Gate Cult implies that the cult leader's claim that suicide would have sent his soul to a passing comet is provenly false. While I don't believe this claim is likely true, I can't prove it to be false either. Thus the example needs to be rewritten so at imply such an unproven claim. One problem with trying to give examples of true believers syndrome within religion is that atheists would likely argue that many devout Christians, Jews, Muslims, Etc. are suffering true-believers syndrome as the atheist would hold such religious views to be irrational beliefs. -- Cab88 16:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The Crop Circles example is very weak - so weak, in fact, that it seems rather out-of-place. As Cab88 has said, it's only really relevant in this context when someone fakes a circle, makes it clear that he made it, and tells everybody how he did it. If people continue to believe in a paranormal cause for that particular crop circle, then we have a clear example of true-believer syndrome, i.e. the person continues to believe despite what Doug and Dave, for example, might show. What's particularly interesting about the crop circle phenomenon today, however, is that not many of the circles are claimed by hoaxers, and neither do hoaxers seem to be making money out of it, or boosting their public profile, as was the case with fraudulent mediums. A great deal (maybe most?) circles are now extremely complex - not just simple circles - and so it doesn't seem at all surprising that people will attribute a paranormal explanation for them. I feel this example needs to be either narrowed down a good deal for it to be useful as an indication of true-believer syndrome - or even to be removed altogether. Any thoughts? Ottershrew 14:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the South Park example, it seems to have the same problems as above. It seems editors will be interested in adding more and more examples here, which is of course nice, but considering that many people are sensitive on this issue, I'm thinking of maybe adding a warning to the top of the page, by the time you read this, it is probably already there :) Feel free to edit the warning or move it... -- Merzul 14:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
South Park has done an episode on True-believer syndrome in which Kyle is convinced of David Blane's psychic prowess having revealed his dead grandmother's wishes for him to attend a particular Jewish school, despite mounting evidence to the contrary presented by his best friend, Stan.
For your consideration. -- Merzul 14:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
For your consideration:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact
This is a bit of a long read, but a fascinating one nonetheless. We've all got the emails before: there's a fortune locked up in foreign banks, somebody needs our help rescuing it, and came to us because they've heard about our honesty and discretion. Most of us click the spam button and are done with it. This article is the story of a (very intelligent) man who fell for the trick. Ultimately, he was swindled for $80,000 (USD) of his own money, and into passing bad checks totalling more than half a million; today he's serving a two year sentance. And yet, the article ends with the man telling us he can't explain why, but he still believes in the story that fooled him.
How about mentioning televangelists in the list of scammers as well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrHaney ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC).
What do you think about Marcial Maciel? We have solid evidence about his criminal and sinful life, but he is still revered as a saint among many of his followers. Many schools and universities are controled by "legionarios de cristo" and it seems there is no problem for many people.
Article could stand a few more links. Solid Start-Class article. Improvement might entail adding a separate section on the cognitive disorder aspect, and how if at all it can be addressed to be overcome. Details of how it was contributed to the success of mediums would be welcome as well, as that is just mentioned in passing. Perhaps some sort of reference if appropriate to The True Believer could be added as well. John Carter 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The crop circle section seems to have both accuracy and POV problems:
Problems (my comments are in bold):
The creators of many crop circles have admitted rather, they bragged they were a hoax, and many others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [4] [3] yet many believers in crop circles continue to insist that they are made by aliens and UFOs. this sentence is POV-pushing, because of the tone and the WP:WTAs.
Possible fix:
People have come forward claiming to have created crop circles as a hoax, we don't know if the claims are always true and others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [5] [3]. Many people believe that some crop circles which have particular features could not have been created by humans, and must be of paranormal origin. If there is a source which says that believers in the paranormal origin of some crop circles reject the fact that some are created by people, then we can go back to the original claim. In fact, however, it is unlikely that believers think that those crop circles claimed by hoaxers are paranormal. At any rate, such a non-nuanced claim would need sources. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 22:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
the "special features"
The original text is supported by the references in the main crop circle article. 1Z 23:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
People have come forward claiming to have created crop circles as a hoax, and others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [6] [3]. Many people believe that some crop circles which have particular features could not have been created by humans, and must be of paranormal origin.
Notes.
Sketics' dictionary links TBS with Carlos. [1]
419-TBS link
[2]
1Z 12:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph has been removed here for two reasons. I think the quotation is good, but a bit too much for the lead. However, we could keep it. The next sentence is POV (see suggested revision below).
According to James Randi, "No amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary." [7] The term "true believer syndrome" is not used professionally by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or medical professionals and it is not recognised as a form of psychopathology or psychological impairment.
Suggested replacement:
Randi quotation if the general consensus requires it. Then:
The term "true believer syndrome" is not used professionally by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or medical professionals and it is not recognised as a form of psychopathology or psychological impairment.
I would also like to ask Fyslee not to edit war, as he has been doing. We can come to consensus on the talk page, and then insert material on the page, but edit warring over POV, inaccurate, or unsourced material is not appropriate. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 22:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The dispute is over whether aspects of the article are OR, and certain aspects of the article which I consider POV. The disputants are myself and fyslee. Here are some significant diffs:
I tried to resolve the issue by removing the section to the talk page [6], but Fyslee put it back without having achieved consensus on the talk page [7]
I then noticed that most of the sources used for several of the sections did not mention True-believer syndrome (making the sections WP:OR), and so I removed the sources and put in citation requests. Please see the edit summaries for other changes, and their reasons.
Fyslee has also been edit warring over part of the summary, and refusing to use the talk page to reach consensus. Because of this post on the talk page, I decided to seek outside opinion. Fyslee also just reverted all my edits [8]- an edit in which he uses the edit summary to also accuse me for the second time of vandalism [9].
For anyone who thinks there is any substance to Fyslee's reference to my having been in trouble before, the ArbCom result came out decisively in my -our- favor. Though I did do some things wrong, my understanding of NPOV and policy was very much confirmed. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Martin, this method (finally done by you) is a much better way to do it. By placing tags you call other editors to come and look at things. Unilaterally deleting and totally revising an article that you don't like raises suspicions based on your past track record of attacking such articles and eliminating what you don't like. That violates many policies here, even if wikilawyering is used to justify it. It's much better to do this in cooperation with multiple editors, especially including those who hold opposing POV, IOW scientific skeptics. I am not interested in policing this or any of the multiple other articles which you regularly attack, so I'll let others participate and see what they will do while I back off. Good luck. -- Fyslee/ talk 08:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Alright. I did a little research.. It seems there is at least one website which talks about this extensively, so if mostly everything in this article can be sourced using that website, we won't have to worry about original research. I suggest everything that can't be, be removed (unless there's another source that talks DIRECTLY about true-believer syndrome). However, since the term isn't that widespread, some of this potential OR should be pruned off. I could even suggest merging it to the spiritual founder's article, but that's just a suggestion. Bulldog123 17:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a book on the subject too: [10]. The website (which I believe most of this article was written from) is here: [11]. So using these two sources should probably be enough to make a brief article (if you all agree to keep it as one). I highly suggest that the examples that can't be sourced precisely as an example of true-believer syndrome, such as (perhaps) the 419 scam, be pruned off. Using editor selected example make it feel more like an essay. Bulldog123 01:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Having gotten your comments, I'm going to go ahead and get rid of the stuff which I don't know is sourced. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm putting a merge template on it, as suggested above. Discuss here. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I moved the votes here to the link above, to keep them all together (: –––
Martinphi (
Talk Ψ
Contribs)
04:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The synthesis tag should be explained, so everyone knows what it's about. I'm assuming it's because the example doesn't mention the subject directly? Dreadstar † 04:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think we really need an article on true-believerism. This could be merged into such an article. I mean, what is more notable than true-believerism? Don't you think we could come up with sources, if we could come up with a good title? ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Much is made of the claim that Wikipedia is evidence based and has as its foundation reliance on cited reliable source material. This is of course a worthy ideal. However we live in the real world. So often in Wikipedia it is a case of a point of view winning out against citable evidence purely because of the greater numbers of "true-believers" who will stick to their viewpoint regardless of the fact that present knowledge does not support their stance. Call it compensated cognitive dissonance if you will. True-believers infest all spheres of society in science (pseudoscience, paranormal), healthcare (quackery), politics (fanaticism) and religion (I won't go there). Obviously Keene is an authority only in the stage craft of the paranormal, but little else. I have searched for other useful, citable uses of the term True-believer syndrome and have come up with fewer than a handful. This is a shame since I believe that the world sorely needs a fuller understanding of this phenomenon which has so much deleterious effect upon the state of human society and which is so well described as the True-believer syndrome. Anyway, enough of my ranting. As the perpetrator who created the category:True-believer syndrome, I concede that the term has not yet received the notability that I think it deserves and unless others can put forward some convincing support that I have failed to find, then I will remove the category in due course.-- Kenneth Cooke ( talk) 00:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for fun, mostly: you may want to try this Google search. One gem it turns up is [12].
The ability to WP:AGF and indeed to collaborate harmoniously may depend in part on the degree to which one (1) sees and countermands the fundamental attribution error in one's own life, (2) sees it at work in other people's lives, and (3) takes all this into account when interacting with others. This may explain why so many true believers have great trouble trying to edit Wikipedia. But note that some learn to go through the motions of acceptable behavior as e.g. outlined at User:Raul654/Civil_POV_pushing (recommended). Avb 12:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
PS See also Group attribution error which may generate additional sobering thoughts on the WP community and its processes; e.g. how "we" (supposedly established NPOV-abiding editors) tend to look at "them" (supposed pov-pushers) - and, of course, vice versa. Avb 13:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A particularly good illustration of this phenomenon would be the story of the Angels of Mons, a legend of fairly recent vintage (1914) that has a very specific source authored by a man who made every effort to subsequently clarify its fanciful nature. The ever-growing resistance to his efforts must have astounded him. Asat ( talk) 08:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:True-believer syndrome/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article could stand a few more links. Solid Start-Class article. Improvement might entail adding a separate section on the cognitive disorder aspect, and how if at all it can be addressed to be overcome. Details of how it was contributed to the success of mediums would be welcome as well, as that is just mentioned in passing. Perhaps some sort of reference if appropriate to The True Believer could be added as well. John Carter 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
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The True-believer syndrome "is not a disorder that is accepted or treated by psychiatrists". Could someone please add why? <KF> 15:52, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have rearranged the material in this article because I believe its former sequence carried excessive pro-skeptical POV. This coined term cannot be presented as a generally-accepted objective psychological condition when it's not in the DSM and when psychiatrists generally don't treat it. It originates with Lamar and the skeptics' camp (there is no citation to any other group accepting or using it), and should be labeled as belonging to them. Now, I don't happen to think Jim Jones was doing miracles either, but an objectively-manifesting mental condition like schizophrenia, this thing is not.
By rearranging the article this way, we can also remove the one proffered reason why psychiatrists don't generally treat this suggested condition. This is beneficial because, based on the entries above, it appears we were only conjecturing about that reason, anyway. -- Gary D 04:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I want to remove the followin subsentence that I find very POV: "and remains a largely rhetorical device used by skeptics in the debate over the existence of certain sorts of paranormal phenomena." I mean, labelling an opionion as a rethorical device is just very POV. Andries 19:47, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I believe the link to this enmtry at Shroud of Turin was suppressed. Is this True-believer syndrome in operation? Wetman 21:55, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I see the True believer refers to this article. That may be wrong. The true believer syndrome refers only to belief in the paranormal as far as I know. Hence I think Sam's edits are not good. I have to admit that I haven't read Eric Hoffer's book The true believer: the psychology of mass movements. Does he use the term true believer syndrome or just true believer? Andries 07:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The term is widely used, and not just for situations involving belief in the paranormal. I understand the original intent of the term, and I understand how terms evolve. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:36, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Isn't immunity to cognitive dissonance pretty much synonymous with the True believer syndrome? -- 212.10.235.140 22:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
It is my intent to remove the following paragraph: "For example, skeptics generally agree there is sufficient proof to conclude that the alleged miracles of Uri Geller and Sathya Sai Baba are or were false; they therefore have often reasoned that believers who have been given the extant evidence of fraud in these cases, and yet continue to believe in these men, are described by this condition." Unless this paragraph can be referenced by reputable sources, it is going to be deleted. No original research allowed (a precedent set by Andries). SSS108 talk- email 21:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It is my intention to add the relevant information that Keene has no credentials or education in psychology or any other related field. Therefore, the definition of "True Believer's Syndrome" was coined by a layman. SSS108 talk- email 21:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, unfortunately, there are no degrees in "psychic fraud". Unless you can tell me Keene's credentials, he is a layman. SSS108 talk- email 20:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Keene's experience as a psychic fraud did not confer upon him, directly or indirectly, any degrees in psychology or the medical field. Keene coined a term that appears to be a medical term. He is a layman, not a professional, no matter how you look at it. SSS108 talk- email 19:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Reputable references are needed for the following sections:
Where did all this information come from? SSS108 talk- email 23:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how is it "redundant" to say Carroll is not a psychologist? Where is this fact already stated? Carroll made a psychiatric assessment of true believers. He does not possess the credentials as a psychologist and this fact should be stated to maintain transparency. If a person said apostates suffered from blame and victim mentality and displayed characteristics comparable to neurotics, and this person did not possess credentials in psychology, I think it would become apparent why it is important to mention he does not possess the proper credentials to make psychological assessments of others. Why are you trying to withhold this fact? SSS108 talk- email 07:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, where are the reputable references for the following comment: "Carroll holds the opinion that the True Believer's Syndrome fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion." This comment is not on Carroll's entry for "True Believer Syndrome". SSS108 talk- email 06:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Andries, no where did Carroll state that True Believer Syndrome (TBS) fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion. You obviously failed to understand the context to Carroll's comments. When he said "by definition", he is referring to True Believer Syndrome, not the psychiatric definition of a delusion (as he does not provide the psychiatric definition for a delusion, but rather provided the definition for TBS). The entire text reads: "Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are by definition deluded in the psychiatric sense of the term: they believe what is false and are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error." You incorrectly paraphrased Carroll and attributed a comment to him that is not supported by the text in his book. SSS108 talk- email 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, back to square one: Where is it stated that: "Carroll holds the opinion that the True Believer's Syndrome fits the psychiatric definition of a delusion"? No matter how you look at his comment, he never said that. Substanitate your comments. SSS108 talk- email 20:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Does this mean that people who have had strange experiences, paranormal experiences happening to them are nuts ? And this is a simple, honest question, no more, no less. Someone who has had these weird experiences, investigate paranormal matters may actually get the idea from this article that they are to be ridiculed, insulted as pursuant to the Robertson Panel protocol, Project Grudge if the encounter was a UFO, alien. This article may offend those that are religious, be they Christians (someone may E-mail a copy of this article to Pat Robertson, the famous TV/radio preacher who is on the 700 Club if they see it.), Moslem, Jewish, citing that this article is "The work of Satan". I am NOT accusing, etc. anyone here at all. Just stating some major concerns. Martial Law 06:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC) :)
I have seen Pat Robertson's TV show, and the 700 club sometimes sponsors religious themed movies that depict "The Last Days", and this sort of material is featured, as is other material, is featured as "Part of the Satanic New World Order" to destroy the Church, etc. until The Judgement happens. I have one of these tapes, called "Left Behind." It has material that is claimed to be from academia and famous skeptics that ridicules the religious people, saying they're mentally ill, are criminals, which turns out to be from Satan in the movie, as The Judgement commences. It is a obscure movie. Again, I am NOT accusing anyone,etc. at all, just stating some concerns, asking questions. Martial Law 06:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC) :)
This entry is ridiculous. It's more about my Skeptic's Dictionary entry on "true-believer syndrome" than it is on the alleged topic. It appears to be written by someone who does not like what I write. An informant tells me it is written by a follower of Sai Baba who does not like what I say about him. Articles like this will destroy whatever credibility Wikipedia has. The culprit, I'm told, is userid SSS108 who has the real name Gerald Joe Moreno. If so, Mr. Moreno should write his own book and not use Wikipedia to rag on mine.--Robert T. Carroll
I happen to agree with Mr. Carroll. This entry is totally ridiculous. However, Mr. Carroll is placing the blame on the wrong person. The person who created this entry and added information about Carroll is none other than Andries Ref 1 & Ref 2. I simply provided additional, referenced information about Carroll that readers should be aware of, especially his self-professed bias.
On a sidenote, I suggest that you, Mr. Carroll, verify whatever information you have been sent about me with me. To accept the words of others without caring to contact the person in question and verifying that information first-hand is not (in my opinion) very scientific, wise or rational. Ironically, accepting "informant's" second-hand data and blindly believing it happens to be a characteristic of a "True Believer". SSS108 talk- email 15:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Bubba73, well the question is about whom should be cited and referenced in regards to "True Believer Syndrome". It is clear that the term originated (from what can be assessed) from Keene, not Carroll. The reason why Carroll's entry was cited is because Andries wanted to have SSB's name in this entry so he could push his POV on the SSB article by referencing this page there. As long as Carroll is cited, the other facts about him need to be cited as well. Also, the topic in question has to do with skepticism and religious belief. Carroll's atheistic beliefs are relevant to this discussion and he even discusses them in the book that is being referenced (and it is even discussed on the entry for his name on Wikipedia). If this topic was not relevant to skepticism and religious beliefs, then I would agree that reference to his atheism would be irrelevant. Carroll is openly an atheist Reference (which I personally have no problems with, by the way). Readers need to know this fact because readers should be aware of any possible source of bias. If this was a discussion about a term deriding skeptics and it was being sourced to an openly critical Christian, there is little doubt that fact would be divulged. SSS108 talk- email 19:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
And there are literally thousands of accounts that state that SSB's miracles are genuine and true. Especially the ones that occur away from his physical form. Andries, even your good friend, Robert Priddy (an Anti-Sai Activist), to this day still states that he believes that SSB has genuine paranormal powers and he does not regard him as an ordinary human being. When even ex-followers still believe that SSB has genuine powers, it is not difficult to understand why his devotees believe he can allegedly work miracles. SSS108 talk- email 19:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Listing the affiliation or bias of an author, is possible and encouraged, if that bias and affiliaton is verifiable, that is. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I finished the book, The Psychic Mafia, last night. The only references to "True Believer Syndrome" are the 2 cited earlier. I also found only one reference to "True Believers" on page 75: "Eventually he would become one of the true believers who felt a pride in belonging to such a church and - the name of the game - gave feely." That's it.
Strangely enough, the forward to The Psychic Mafia was written by the Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher who openly professed belief in mediums and paranormal manifestations even though The Psychic Mafia discussed "true believers" and how they persist in believing mediumship and other paranormal phenomena despite "overwhelming evidence" to the contrary! Here are some gems taken from the forward to "The Psychic Mafia", by Rauscher: "This may sound strange coming from one who accepts the reality of paranormal manifestations (as attested in my own book, The Spiritual Frontier, an account of my psychic exploration)...Now I believe that 'good mediums' exist. I believe I have met some of them. Not all mediums are dishonest, and this book is not intended to discredit those who are legitimate. Nor will it do so. The honest psychic or medium has nothing to fear from this book...The only medium threatened by this book is the fraudulent one." After reading this forward, and taking into consideration this discussion about "True Believer Syndrome", the entire book left me rolling my eyes. SSS108 talk- email 15:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
True Believer Syndrome is specifically about psychic phenomena. It is amusing that Keene concedes belief in the same psychic phenomena that he attempts to expose. I do not object to the reference about Keene's belief in God being removed. But the other references are most certainly relevant to the entry. SSS108 talk- email 21:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it is important to mention that the Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher, who wrote the forward to The Psychic Mafia, professed a belief in mediums and psychic phenomena even though he discussed true-believer syndrome. The relevant passages, from Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher, read: "This may sound strange coming from one who accepts the reality of paranormal manifestations (as attested in my own book, The Spiritual Frontier, an account of my psychic exploration). However, I have spent as much time arguing some people out of an overly credulous attitude toward the subject as arguing into being open-minded towards it. As Lamar's story devastatingly reveals, the greatest friend the fraudulent medium has is overbelief on the part of his victims. Lamar calls it 'true believer syndrome'. The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic, but seemingly, even sanity...Now I believe that 'good mediums' exist. I believe I have met some of them. Not all mediums are dishonest, and this book is not intended to discredit those who are legitimate. Nor will it do so. The honest psychic or medium has nothing to fear from this book...The only medium threatened by this book is the fraudulent one." It appears to me that there needs to be a clear distinction between the type of belief that true-believer syndrome embodies and general belief in paranormal events. There is a significant difference. Both Rauscher and Keene think it is perfectly acceptable to believe in mediums, psychic phenomena, ESP and life and after death and not suffer from true believer syndrome! It appears that true-believer syndrome specifically and exclusively applies to someone who believes in something that has been openly faked, with a full admission of fraud, and a person persists in believing the faked event. Of course, all of this information compromises its usage by Carroll (as there are no admissions of open fraud from any of the people he cites). The history behind this term gives the impression that many use it without knowing what it is. This is very important information. SSS108 talk- email 23:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Bubba, there is a difference between "true-believers" and "true-believer syndrome". The term "true-believers" is more defined by skeptics and refers to people who believe in paranormal phenomena, such as paranormal manifestations, mediums, ESP, life after death and psychic occurrences, etc. (which would qualify both Keene and Rauscher as being "true believers"). To equate "true-believers" with "true-believer syndrome" is misleading and the two should be separated and differentiated. Perhaps you can work on an article about "true-believers"? SSS108 talk- email 19:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
In light of the new information about this entry, and Carroll's objection about too much inclusion of his info in this entry, I propose the deletion for the following section:
This information is redundant and irrelevant as it has already been described by Keene. It would make the article more direct and succint, in my opinion. I'll wait for consensus first. SSS108 talk- email 16:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Bubba. I will wait for Andries to weigh in. If the first section to the proposed removal is kept, I think it is only fair to keep the sentence and reference for: "Carroll also stated in his book that his opinions are not meant to present a balanced view on occult subjects." This self-professed bias is wholly relevant. Thanks. SSS108 talk- email 17:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose the last two paragraphs be deleted. I have rewritten my Skeptic's Dictionary article on this topic and both quotes from me are no longer in the article cited. Also, the editorial comment that concludes this article is gratuitous and irrelevant to the article. I apologize to User:SSS108. I would have contacted you if I had known how. Andries, I think those who have moved this article in the direction to be about Keene are going the right way. He is the one who suggested that true believer syndrome be studied scientically. However, his religious views seem irrelevant. His concern was with people who use mediums to contact dead people and who, even when presented with clear evidence of fraud on the part of the medium, do not give up their belief that the medium really did contact the dead. Keene's concern was not with the paranormal as such but with spiritualism. 165.196.235.45 16:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)R. Carroll
I chopped out the following paragraph because the link seems tenuous and like Original Research. Could someone provide a 3rd party who has made the link including a WP:CITE before readding?
Ashmoo 03:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely the whole paragraph cites Kuhn's book (which is incredibly well known). Simply describing similar phenomena in a well-regarded academic book hardly seems like origina research - Vaughan 08:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The article states that 'true believer syndrome' "is not a scientific term and as such is not used by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or doctors." I propose the phrase "Although not a psychologist" when referring to me be removed. Since the term is not a medical or diagnostic term in psychology, noting that I am not a psychologist is irrelevant.
Also, the last sentence, while true, has nothing to do with "true believer syndrome" and should be removed.
165.196.235.45 16:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)R. Carroll
Two of the examples listed have NPOV problems. They make implications not supported yet by available evidence or currently not provable one way or the other with current science. First, the example of crop circles is not written in an NPOV way. To me, it implies that all crop circles are hoaxes something that I believe is not yet proven. While this might be true, I believe that that possibility that aliens did indeed create some crop circles can't be completely ruled out based on lack of evidence as to how in fact they where created. Thus we need to rewrite the example to be clear that we are not talking about all crop circles but only those in which their is solid evidence of them being a hoax. Second, the example about The Heaven's Gate Cult implies that the cult leader's claim that suicide would have sent his soul to a passing comet is provenly false. While I don't believe this claim is likely true, I can't prove it to be false either. Thus the example needs to be rewritten so at imply such an unproven claim. One problem with trying to give examples of true believers syndrome within religion is that atheists would likely argue that many devout Christians, Jews, Muslims, Etc. are suffering true-believers syndrome as the atheist would hold such religious views to be irrational beliefs. -- Cab88 16:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The Crop Circles example is very weak - so weak, in fact, that it seems rather out-of-place. As Cab88 has said, it's only really relevant in this context when someone fakes a circle, makes it clear that he made it, and tells everybody how he did it. If people continue to believe in a paranormal cause for that particular crop circle, then we have a clear example of true-believer syndrome, i.e. the person continues to believe despite what Doug and Dave, for example, might show. What's particularly interesting about the crop circle phenomenon today, however, is that not many of the circles are claimed by hoaxers, and neither do hoaxers seem to be making money out of it, or boosting their public profile, as was the case with fraudulent mediums. A great deal (maybe most?) circles are now extremely complex - not just simple circles - and so it doesn't seem at all surprising that people will attribute a paranormal explanation for them. I feel this example needs to be either narrowed down a good deal for it to be useful as an indication of true-believer syndrome - or even to be removed altogether. Any thoughts? Ottershrew 14:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the South Park example, it seems to have the same problems as above. It seems editors will be interested in adding more and more examples here, which is of course nice, but considering that many people are sensitive on this issue, I'm thinking of maybe adding a warning to the top of the page, by the time you read this, it is probably already there :) Feel free to edit the warning or move it... -- Merzul 14:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
South Park has done an episode on True-believer syndrome in which Kyle is convinced of David Blane's psychic prowess having revealed his dead grandmother's wishes for him to attend a particular Jewish school, despite mounting evidence to the contrary presented by his best friend, Stan.
For your consideration. -- Merzul 14:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
For your consideration:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060515fa_fact
This is a bit of a long read, but a fascinating one nonetheless. We've all got the emails before: there's a fortune locked up in foreign banks, somebody needs our help rescuing it, and came to us because they've heard about our honesty and discretion. Most of us click the spam button and are done with it. This article is the story of a (very intelligent) man who fell for the trick. Ultimately, he was swindled for $80,000 (USD) of his own money, and into passing bad checks totalling more than half a million; today he's serving a two year sentance. And yet, the article ends with the man telling us he can't explain why, but he still believes in the story that fooled him.
How about mentioning televangelists in the list of scammers as well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrHaney ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC).
What do you think about Marcial Maciel? We have solid evidence about his criminal and sinful life, but he is still revered as a saint among many of his followers. Many schools and universities are controled by "legionarios de cristo" and it seems there is no problem for many people.
Article could stand a few more links. Solid Start-Class article. Improvement might entail adding a separate section on the cognitive disorder aspect, and how if at all it can be addressed to be overcome. Details of how it was contributed to the success of mediums would be welcome as well, as that is just mentioned in passing. Perhaps some sort of reference if appropriate to The True Believer could be added as well. John Carter 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The crop circle section seems to have both accuracy and POV problems:
Problems (my comments are in bold):
The creators of many crop circles have admitted rather, they bragged they were a hoax, and many others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [4] [3] yet many believers in crop circles continue to insist that they are made by aliens and UFOs. this sentence is POV-pushing, because of the tone and the WP:WTAs.
Possible fix:
People have come forward claiming to have created crop circles as a hoax, we don't know if the claims are always true and others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [5] [3]. Many people believe that some crop circles which have particular features could not have been created by humans, and must be of paranormal origin. If there is a source which says that believers in the paranormal origin of some crop circles reject the fact that some are created by people, then we can go back to the original claim. In fact, however, it is unlikely that believers think that those crop circles claimed by hoaxers are paranormal. At any rate, such a non-nuanced claim would need sources. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 22:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
the "special features"
The original text is supported by the references in the main crop circle article. 1Z 23:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
People have come forward claiming to have created crop circles as a hoax, and others have demonstrated how complex crop circles are created, [1] [6] [3]. Many people believe that some crop circles which have particular features could not have been created by humans, and must be of paranormal origin.
Notes.
Sketics' dictionary links TBS with Carlos. [1]
419-TBS link
[2]
1Z 12:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph has been removed here for two reasons. I think the quotation is good, but a bit too much for the lead. However, we could keep it. The next sentence is POV (see suggested revision below).
According to James Randi, "No amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary." [7] The term "true believer syndrome" is not used professionally by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or medical professionals and it is not recognised as a form of psychopathology or psychological impairment.
Suggested replacement:
Randi quotation if the general consensus requires it. Then:
The term "true believer syndrome" is not used professionally by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or medical professionals and it is not recognised as a form of psychopathology or psychological impairment.
I would also like to ask Fyslee not to edit war, as he has been doing. We can come to consensus on the talk page, and then insert material on the page, but edit warring over POV, inaccurate, or unsourced material is not appropriate. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 22:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The dispute is over whether aspects of the article are OR, and certain aspects of the article which I consider POV. The disputants are myself and fyslee. Here are some significant diffs:
I tried to resolve the issue by removing the section to the talk page [6], but Fyslee put it back without having achieved consensus on the talk page [7]
I then noticed that most of the sources used for several of the sections did not mention True-believer syndrome (making the sections WP:OR), and so I removed the sources and put in citation requests. Please see the edit summaries for other changes, and their reasons.
Fyslee has also been edit warring over part of the summary, and refusing to use the talk page to reach consensus. Because of this post on the talk page, I decided to seek outside opinion. Fyslee also just reverted all my edits [8]- an edit in which he uses the edit summary to also accuse me for the second time of vandalism [9].
For anyone who thinks there is any substance to Fyslee's reference to my having been in trouble before, the ArbCom result came out decisively in my -our- favor. Though I did do some things wrong, my understanding of NPOV and policy was very much confirmed. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Martin, this method (finally done by you) is a much better way to do it. By placing tags you call other editors to come and look at things. Unilaterally deleting and totally revising an article that you don't like raises suspicions based on your past track record of attacking such articles and eliminating what you don't like. That violates many policies here, even if wikilawyering is used to justify it. It's much better to do this in cooperation with multiple editors, especially including those who hold opposing POV, IOW scientific skeptics. I am not interested in policing this or any of the multiple other articles which you regularly attack, so I'll let others participate and see what they will do while I back off. Good luck. -- Fyslee/ talk 08:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Alright. I did a little research.. It seems there is at least one website which talks about this extensively, so if mostly everything in this article can be sourced using that website, we won't have to worry about original research. I suggest everything that can't be, be removed (unless there's another source that talks DIRECTLY about true-believer syndrome). However, since the term isn't that widespread, some of this potential OR should be pruned off. I could even suggest merging it to the spiritual founder's article, but that's just a suggestion. Bulldog123 17:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a book on the subject too: [10]. The website (which I believe most of this article was written from) is here: [11]. So using these two sources should probably be enough to make a brief article (if you all agree to keep it as one). I highly suggest that the examples that can't be sourced precisely as an example of true-believer syndrome, such as (perhaps) the 419 scam, be pruned off. Using editor selected example make it feel more like an essay. Bulldog123 01:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Having gotten your comments, I'm going to go ahead and get rid of the stuff which I don't know is sourced. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm putting a merge template on it, as suggested above. Discuss here. ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I moved the votes here to the link above, to keep them all together (: –––
Martinphi (
Talk Ψ
Contribs)
04:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The synthesis tag should be explained, so everyone knows what it's about. I'm assuming it's because the example doesn't mention the subject directly? Dreadstar † 04:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think we really need an article on true-believerism. This could be merged into such an article. I mean, what is more notable than true-believerism? Don't you think we could come up with sources, if we could come up with a good title? ––– Martinphi ( Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Much is made of the claim that Wikipedia is evidence based and has as its foundation reliance on cited reliable source material. This is of course a worthy ideal. However we live in the real world. So often in Wikipedia it is a case of a point of view winning out against citable evidence purely because of the greater numbers of "true-believers" who will stick to their viewpoint regardless of the fact that present knowledge does not support their stance. Call it compensated cognitive dissonance if you will. True-believers infest all spheres of society in science (pseudoscience, paranormal), healthcare (quackery), politics (fanaticism) and religion (I won't go there). Obviously Keene is an authority only in the stage craft of the paranormal, but little else. I have searched for other useful, citable uses of the term True-believer syndrome and have come up with fewer than a handful. This is a shame since I believe that the world sorely needs a fuller understanding of this phenomenon which has so much deleterious effect upon the state of human society and which is so well described as the True-believer syndrome. Anyway, enough of my ranting. As the perpetrator who created the category:True-believer syndrome, I concede that the term has not yet received the notability that I think it deserves and unless others can put forward some convincing support that I have failed to find, then I will remove the category in due course.-- Kenneth Cooke ( talk) 00:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for fun, mostly: you may want to try this Google search. One gem it turns up is [12].
The ability to WP:AGF and indeed to collaborate harmoniously may depend in part on the degree to which one (1) sees and countermands the fundamental attribution error in one's own life, (2) sees it at work in other people's lives, and (3) takes all this into account when interacting with others. This may explain why so many true believers have great trouble trying to edit Wikipedia. But note that some learn to go through the motions of acceptable behavior as e.g. outlined at User:Raul654/Civil_POV_pushing (recommended). Avb 12:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
PS See also Group attribution error which may generate additional sobering thoughts on the WP community and its processes; e.g. how "we" (supposedly established NPOV-abiding editors) tend to look at "them" (supposed pov-pushers) - and, of course, vice versa. Avb 13:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A particularly good illustration of this phenomenon would be the story of the Angels of Mons, a legend of fairly recent vintage (1914) that has a very specific source authored by a man who made every effort to subsequently clarify its fanciful nature. The ever-growing resistance to his efforts must have astounded him. Asat ( talk) 08:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:True-believer syndrome/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article could stand a few more links. Solid Start-Class article. Improvement might entail adding a separate section on the cognitive disorder aspect, and how if at all it can be addressed to be overcome. Details of how it was contributed to the success of mediums would be welcome as well, as that is just mentioned in passing. Perhaps some sort of reference if appropriate to The True Believer could be added as well. John Carter 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 00:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)