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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 January 2019 and 8 May 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
ColeS777.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:40, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Ilium
in the first paragraph this is shown as an alternative name for Troy, and given a Greek spelling (in brackets), but in the main article section on the name Ilium is said to be the Latin, and Ilion or Ilios are the Greek names for Troy. This all seems very inconsistent and should be corrected.
On the Ilium disambiguation page, in reference to Troy, is listed as Ilion (using the masculine Greek) and not as Ilium (using the neuter Latin) - this again seems inconsistent and should be corrected.
Ilium is Latin, Ilion and Ilios are Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.24.1 ( talk) 10:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
καὶ νήεσσ' ἡγήσατ' Ἀχαιῶν Ἴλιον εἴσω" (Iliad, 1.71)
Ἴλιον ἐκπέρσαντ' εὐτείχεον ἀπονέεσθαι (Iliad, 2.113)
Botterweg14 (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)ἔμμεναι: αἴσχιστος δὲ ἀνὴρ ὑπὸ Ἴλιον ἦλθε (Iliad, 2.216)
This article states: "Troy VI existed from around 1750 BC to 1300 BC", which is correct according to the current consensus (see Strauss 2006, Cline 2013 and others). But then is says "Troy VI was destroyed around 1250 BC, corresponding with the sublayer known as Troy VIh." This is inconsistent with the prior statement and does not agree with the current consensus (that an earthquake c.1300 BC is responsible for the damage to Troy VIh.) It ought to be corrected. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:75E3:BDC1:F666:EEC4 ( talk) 16:36, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
I was thinking of reorganizing the article and wanted feedback first. I worry that the current structure buries some of the more important points (e.g. the archaeology of Troy VI/VIIa) and lumps or splits some things that would be more natural for readers to encounter in one place (e.g. texts about Wilusa with the archaeology of Troy VI/VIIa). Here's my thought:
Another worry is that the article is currently too detailed for some readers but not for others. For instance, someone could care about Troy VI's lower town but not about the murex shells. My first thought was to address this with a somewhat more detailed lead, but I also had the thought of splitting the article. Botterweg14 (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
If I was gonna create a new article to house the all of the current Troy 0-Troy V sections, any suggestions on what the title would be? "Early Troy" is a little vague, but "Pre-Late-Bronze-Age Troy" sounds terrible. Botterweg14 (talk) 16:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Howard from NYC ( talk) 20:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I knew how to tweak my laptop to ensure requisite non-English alphabets were visible... problem not everyone does... where is there a wiki page to link to which details this? ought be a fairly common hassle for non-college student in need of those articles covering dead cultures or dust-coated dialects of living languages... someone already addressed it... yes? no?
The description of Troy VI includes "a defensive ditch cut 1-2 into the bedrock.", without specifying a unit. Maybe meters? ManlyMatt ( talk) 17:57, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
There is no discussion about the article's "quality" without addressing the obvious issue: Hisarlik is NOT Ilion. The site has never been identified conclusively as the location of the city of Ilion. Homer's Troians have Greek names and speak Greek - even if only when interacting with the attackers. The "Troy VIh-VII" layers, which corresponds to the alleged period the war took place, are distinctly Anatolian, and the language - again, assumed, not conclusively determined - seems to be one of Anatolian languages, not Greek. In fact, the traces of possible Greek influence are few and far in between. Crucially, there is no evidence of destruction by war that should be present if there was a war as suggested by Iliada. The only destruction detected in the period's strata is from an earthquake, which is normal in Anatolia. It is highly seismically active zone.
As the article depends on the city to be Ilion of Troia, its quality also depends on that identification. And since no war destruction has been identified, the city clearly cannot be claimed to be the Ilion of Iliada, without delving into other, significant, details given by the epic that simply do not exist in Hisarlik.
So speaking about the article's "quality" is a joke, to put it mildly, for as long as we call the city something that it, based on existing archaeological evidence, clearly is not. Doing so is deceptive and manipulative. The city is a fantastic discovery but by claiming falsely that it is a mythical Ilion we are stealing its true history and are building a fake one around it. We are turning a myth into a religious belief by inventing "evidence" through "interpretation", the most deceptive process that exists in science. Time to cut that demagoguery and return to cold, hard research. And only rely on evidence, not on a hearsay. Or, next, we'll accept that the 'bible' is a historical account confirming that there is 'god', disregarding the fact that the 'bible' never mentions such a creature.
Science and dogmas do not fit together. The "quality" of the "evidence" in favour of Hisarlik being the site of Ilion is extremely dubious and sketchy at best. 220.158.190.25 ( talk) 01:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
David Adams on History channel had a theory based on gold deposit distribution that since water levels were allegedly higher at the alleged period, there was a waterway to the east to where gold is more plentiful, so Troy is not in Turkey, which will upset many. Watch it for yourself. :-) Just had to mention it here ... 220.253.111.168 ( talk) 06:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it spelt with a dotted or undotted i since one source says it spelt like Hisarlık and others with a regular i. Daisytheduck ( talk) 01:08, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Troy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 January 2019 and 8 May 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
ColeS777.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:40, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Ilium
in the first paragraph this is shown as an alternative name for Troy, and given a Greek spelling (in brackets), but in the main article section on the name Ilium is said to be the Latin, and Ilion or Ilios are the Greek names for Troy. This all seems very inconsistent and should be corrected.
On the Ilium disambiguation page, in reference to Troy, is listed as Ilion (using the masculine Greek) and not as Ilium (using the neuter Latin) - this again seems inconsistent and should be corrected.
Ilium is Latin, Ilion and Ilios are Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.24.1 ( talk) 10:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
καὶ νήεσσ' ἡγήσατ' Ἀχαιῶν Ἴλιον εἴσω" (Iliad, 1.71)
Ἴλιον ἐκπέρσαντ' εὐτείχεον ἀπονέεσθαι (Iliad, 2.113)
Botterweg14 (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)ἔμμεναι: αἴσχιστος δὲ ἀνὴρ ὑπὸ Ἴλιον ἦλθε (Iliad, 2.216)
This article states: "Troy VI existed from around 1750 BC to 1300 BC", which is correct according to the current consensus (see Strauss 2006, Cline 2013 and others). But then is says "Troy VI was destroyed around 1250 BC, corresponding with the sublayer known as Troy VIh." This is inconsistent with the prior statement and does not agree with the current consensus (that an earthquake c.1300 BC is responsible for the damage to Troy VIh.) It ought to be corrected. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:75E3:BDC1:F666:EEC4 ( talk) 16:36, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
I was thinking of reorganizing the article and wanted feedback first. I worry that the current structure buries some of the more important points (e.g. the archaeology of Troy VI/VIIa) and lumps or splits some things that would be more natural for readers to encounter in one place (e.g. texts about Wilusa with the archaeology of Troy VI/VIIa). Here's my thought:
Another worry is that the article is currently too detailed for some readers but not for others. For instance, someone could care about Troy VI's lower town but not about the murex shells. My first thought was to address this with a somewhat more detailed lead, but I also had the thought of splitting the article. Botterweg14 (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
If I was gonna create a new article to house the all of the current Troy 0-Troy V sections, any suggestions on what the title would be? "Early Troy" is a little vague, but "Pre-Late-Bronze-Age Troy" sounds terrible. Botterweg14 (talk) 16:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Howard from NYC ( talk) 20:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I knew how to tweak my laptop to ensure requisite non-English alphabets were visible... problem not everyone does... where is there a wiki page to link to which details this? ought be a fairly common hassle for non-college student in need of those articles covering dead cultures or dust-coated dialects of living languages... someone already addressed it... yes? no?
The description of Troy VI includes "a defensive ditch cut 1-2 into the bedrock.", without specifying a unit. Maybe meters? ManlyMatt ( talk) 17:57, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
There is no discussion about the article's "quality" without addressing the obvious issue: Hisarlik is NOT Ilion. The site has never been identified conclusively as the location of the city of Ilion. Homer's Troians have Greek names and speak Greek - even if only when interacting with the attackers. The "Troy VIh-VII" layers, which corresponds to the alleged period the war took place, are distinctly Anatolian, and the language - again, assumed, not conclusively determined - seems to be one of Anatolian languages, not Greek. In fact, the traces of possible Greek influence are few and far in between. Crucially, there is no evidence of destruction by war that should be present if there was a war as suggested by Iliada. The only destruction detected in the period's strata is from an earthquake, which is normal in Anatolia. It is highly seismically active zone.
As the article depends on the city to be Ilion of Troia, its quality also depends on that identification. And since no war destruction has been identified, the city clearly cannot be claimed to be the Ilion of Iliada, without delving into other, significant, details given by the epic that simply do not exist in Hisarlik.
So speaking about the article's "quality" is a joke, to put it mildly, for as long as we call the city something that it, based on existing archaeological evidence, clearly is not. Doing so is deceptive and manipulative. The city is a fantastic discovery but by claiming falsely that it is a mythical Ilion we are stealing its true history and are building a fake one around it. We are turning a myth into a religious belief by inventing "evidence" through "interpretation", the most deceptive process that exists in science. Time to cut that demagoguery and return to cold, hard research. And only rely on evidence, not on a hearsay. Or, next, we'll accept that the 'bible' is a historical account confirming that there is 'god', disregarding the fact that the 'bible' never mentions such a creature.
Science and dogmas do not fit together. The "quality" of the "evidence" in favour of Hisarlik being the site of Ilion is extremely dubious and sketchy at best. 220.158.190.25 ( talk) 01:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
David Adams on History channel had a theory based on gold deposit distribution that since water levels were allegedly higher at the alleged period, there was a waterway to the east to where gold is more plentiful, so Troy is not in Turkey, which will upset many. Watch it for yourself. :-) Just had to mention it here ... 220.253.111.168 ( talk) 06:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it spelt with a dotted or undotted i since one source says it spelt like Hisarlık and others with a regular i. Daisytheduck ( talk) 01:08, 19 April 2024 (UTC)