![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have editited the below passage somewhat as it seemed anything but impartial:
The International Socialist Organization supported Ralph Nader, an anti-socialist candidate in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. Britain's SWP supported George Galloway, an establishment Labor politician, in his campaign under the Respect Coalition, which included Islamist groups. Like Nader's campaign was meant to influence the Democrats, the Respect Coalition means to push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it with a party truly representing the working class. Both Nader and Galloway accept money from right-wing groups to help their campaign, Nader from Republicans and Galloway from Arab nationalist governments.
Firstly, the claim that Galloway's aim was to "push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it". I do not know enough about Nader to comment on that part, but I have yet to see any evidence that this was Galloway's stated aim or any general consensus on this. It is an opinion (and a valid one) but it should be stated as such.
Islamic (or Muslim) is a far more appropriate term than Islamist for the groups involved in Respect.
Labour is spelt wrong (either labor or Labour, please (proper noun of a British group, therefore it's still spelt as such even when written by an American)).
"establishment labor politician" wreaks of bias, and isn't even true (though it arguably once was). "Former Labour MP" is far more accurate, and an undisputed fact.
I don't know whether the last sentence is true (if it is I suspect there's a lot more too it than meets the eye). Either way, I think it was only put there to disparage Nader/Galloway, but I've left it in... for now.
-- 4.152.102.39 13:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to re-open this. The entry into the CPs was adopted at the 51 World Congress: before the ICFI and ISFI separated. The entire FI accepted the positions of the 48 and 51 world congresses. Pablo didn't argue for doing deals, but for long term entry. All of this is much better explain on the ICFI, USFI, ICFI and Pablo pages. -- DuncanBCS 18:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. This is just one flavour of trotskyism - there are many, many organisations calling themselves 'the fourth international' Secretlondon 17:42, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)
NPOV: "Trotskyists are mostly ignored by historians and politicians except when they faced police repression and slander. It is unusual for them to get a fair hearing of their views."
Amusing as this sort of POV pushing is, it ought to be revised.
How about "Trotskyists argue that their views are mostly ignored or slandered by politicians and the media. Examples which could be cited are that in Great Britain the Guardian, a newspaper generally seen as left-leaning, printed an article containing the following statement:
'At last week's cabinet meeting, Mr Blair likened Islamic extremism to the Trotskyist Militant Tendency that infiltrated Labour in the 80s...' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,1531397,00.html>
The insinuation that Militant and Trotskyists in general utilise terrorism was not challenged in the body of the article. A letter of protest from the Socialist Party (formerly Militant) general secretary was subsequently printed:
'You report that Tony Blair, "likened Islamic extremism to the Trotskyist Militant Tendency" (Report, July 19). This is an outrageous slur. Militant Tendency, now the Socialist party, has always condemned terrorism, both of individuals and groups and the state terrorism of the US and British governments that is estimated to have resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians in Iraq. It does not bode well for civil liberties in the wake of 7/7 that the prime minister is prepared to malign socialists who have opposed his neoliberal, warmongering policies by equating them with terrorists.' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,1533025,00.html>
The SP's right to reply was observed, but the fact remains that they were originally misrepresented. Additionally, during the general election the SP supported its claim that 'in general there is a media blackout at national and local levels of our campaign':
'We thought we might get a better opportunity to show how our policies could appeal to voters, given a proper airing, by participating in Newsnight’s film on political speed dating which went out on Monday 24 April. Nancy Taaffe, the Socialist Party candidate in Walthamstow appeared for us and did spectacularly well. Nancy came joint second beating all the establishment parties and groups like UKIP or Respect, which have had far more national media coverage because of the high profile of former MPs Robert Kilroy-Silk or George Galloway.
'However, our hopes of seeing this fantastic performance on TV, albeit at the late time of 11pm in a light-hearted piece on the election, were bitterly disappointed.
'Although we had some reservations that the piece may have over-trivialised the election and that we would not be given a fair bite of the cherry, we were reassured by the producer that every candidate would be featured. Out of all the candidates, Nancy was given the least time, just three seconds, and was the only one not to get mentioned by name.' < http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2005/389/index.html?id=np3c.htm>
Lindsay
I am sure lyndon LaRouche is not looked upon with much warmth, given the fact that he is no longer a Trotskyist, or a Marxist of any sort (and, of course, the altercations during his Operation Mop-Up days). But he has retained much of his Socialist outlook nevertheless (bassically, he supports strict government restrictions on corporate activity and trade, as well as government investment in said corporations, particularly for large-scale poblic works and engineering projects, such as energy, water distribution, and space travel), and he did not outright denounce Marx or even Lenin when he changed, just that Marx used some faulty reasoning concerning the nature of the class struggle (an ancient cabal of aristocrats, centered around the Babylonian cult, and remember, is not religion/magick, second to prostitution, the oldest proffession?).
Some people go so far as to call him a Stalinist, or even a full blown Nazi (though, I want to make it clear, Dennis King is, inevitably, more fascist than LaRouche, given the recent information regarding that gangster Mao Tze-Tung, who improved upon Stalin's penchant for abusing a governmental structure).
Is their any reconciliation possible? 69.248.43.27 05:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Could we possibly discuss Sydney Hook? I recall reading that he was still very loyal to Trotsky. --Again, thank you, you where all very cordiel, in conrast to the steriotype presented from both right and left, stay on track, 69.248.43.27 00:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following sections, which are unsupported and replaced sections in which the views of the antagonists had been summarised in their own words.
A neutral recasting of this could be: Pablo's view was the the masses could push some communist parties into anti-imperialist actions, as was evidenced by the overturns in China and Yugoslavia. In their opinion, the threat of a Third World War would also polarise the labout movement, and would send a wave of radical militants into the Communist and Social Democratic parties. The 1951 World Congress concluded that sections in countries with mass workers party should conduct entrism of a special type: while not dissolving their organisations or the International, they should work as secretly as necessary in order to develop a revolutionary current in those parties. The 1951 Congress argued these parties could be pushed to different conclusions. The Soviet Union overturned capitalism in the buffer states countries because of the military and political results of World War II, and only after its attempts at placating capitalism failed to protect those countries from the threat of incursion by the West. However, the overturns in China and Yugoslavia were conducted against the wishes of the Soviet bureacracy.
Any suggestions on how to move forward? -- Duncan 13:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
There are other pages which list the Trotskyist groups; and each group's listing includes its URL. From time to time supporters of one group or another add links to their group to the external links page, ofen citing that the new URL includes material by Trotsky. While this is done in good faith, the nett effect is both to add no new material by Trotsky [since everything online is at marxists.org] and to open the route for every group to list its URL on every page that touches on Trotskyism. This would introduce substantial duplicated information into Wikipedia, which is not a directory. If you are thinking of adding a link to this page, or similar pages, feel free to raise the suggestion on the Talk page first. Thanks. -- Duncan 18:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I find it very doubtful that Orwell was a Trotskyist. As far as I know he never claimed such a thing. If there are sources for this then they should be listed, otherwise it should be removed.
Why is the claim of few Trotskyists in the Third World disputed? It doesn't make sense to demand "support" of a statement that few Third World revolutionaries embrace Trotskyism. Point to some Trotskyist parties in the Third World if you can. I don't know of a single one, though I do know of various other Marxist trends that are active there.
I have restored the sentence, with "rejected by Third World revolutionaries" changed to "rare among Third World revolutionaries". Shorne 16:55, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With regard to Bolshevik Leninist tendencies in the former colonial world—note the term Third World is not to be found in the Trotskyist lexicon—there were many. For example the largest workers party in ceylon was the Lanka Sama Samaja Party. there remains a large milieu of Trot groups in ceylon to this day. In Vietnam the Bolshevik Leninism was a large tendency in Siagon until it was persecuted and its leaders murdered by the Stalinists who were working with the imperialists. Again in Bolivia the POR was a mass party among the indistrial working class and played a major role in then revolution of 1952. Trotskyism is till influential there too. oif brazil and Argentina are considered Thjird World thjere too are large influential groups There was a sizeable Trotskyist group in Cuba before it was repressed by Castro. Finally there is a large trotskyist group in Algeria with considerable representation in parliament.
Jock Haston
So I did another edit on the Trotskyism in the Third World bit. As it was written, it made it sound like Sri Lanka was the only less-developed country with a significant Trotskyist presence, which is false. Without going into long comparisons with other tendencies, perhaps this is an improvement? -- Kod65red 23:22, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually the second largest section of Committee for a Workers' International is the Nigerian one. -- Dalen 23:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Same about the International Marxist Tendency: the biggest section is the Pakistani one. The tale of Trotskyism as a West-centered trend has no foundation. -- MauroVan 09:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, they are sections of respective internationals in countries with very large populations. I think that it is correct to say that Trotskyism is West-centered in the sense that 1) the movement originated in Europe, 2) its theoretical and political leadership is based in Europe and 3) establishment of Trotskyist movements in the 3rd world tend to follow colonial patters (London-based internationals has sections in former British colonies, UCI or FI-Verité has sections in former French, etc.). Notably the Latin American-based internationals (essentially Morenoists) differ from this pattern (and do in some ways constitute a political microcosm of their own). I think one can say that Trotskyism did not get a mass following in the 3rd world compareable to the official Soviet m-l, antirevisionist interpretations of m-l (maoists, pro-albanians) or radical nationalism. Trotskyist groups, of a variety of international affiliations, are widely represented in virtually all Western countries, but the situation is hardly the same in the 3rd world. This of course has its historical explanation. -- Soman 10:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it's important not to discount memberships in large countries; it's more important to took at the nature of the party; whether it has a cadre-structure of whether its membership norma are more like social-democratic parties. For example, it's not unfair to say that the very largest Trotskyist parties have included the LSSP and NSSP in Sri Lanka; the Trotskyist organisations in Mexico, Brazil, Bolivia, Peru and Argentina have been very large; the Revolutionary Workers Party of Mindanao is also a mass organisation, with whose armed wing the Philippino government has negotiated.-- Duncan 10:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
''''May'''' I add something more? Obviously it was only in the developing world that the Trotskyist movement ever developed anything close to a mass base: 1. Vietnam had a Trotskyist party, organized mostly in southern Vietnam that actually WON the colonial elections in 1945. It had 10s of thousands of supporters and probably close to 3,000 members over two groups. 2. Sri-Lanka did have a mass trotskyist party, about 7,000 members at one point but an influence into the millions really. 3. The Bolivian POR was never a 'mass party', ever. It probably topped out at 800 members in and around 1951. But again, it *defined* Marxism in that country and again had a mass base, mostly among the 100,000 tin miners at the time, most of whom looked to the Fourth International as "their" vanguard. 4. The MAS in Argentina in the mid-1980s claimed to have topped out at 14,000 members, bigger than any left group but the official CP (albeit it too was more influential). 5. The official FI-La Verite group in Algeria, topped out at 8,000 members during the election about 6 years ago. members of that group told me that over 40,000 had actually asked to join in the wake of a succesful election campaign that saw the group there get 8% of the vote and 20 MPs.
David Walters
This is now too long, and is even listing organisations about which there is no Wikipedia entry. I propose to limit the organisations mentioned to those listed in the Trotskyism template, and to link to the list of Trotskyist Internationals for the rest. The only alternative would be for this section to get longer and longer, until it duplicates the list of internationals. -- Duncan 17:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the above proposal and think that any group that calls itself Trotskyist should be included. I personally don't think that how long an article is is really relevent. Leon Trotsky 11:52, 2 November 2006
The section "Trotskyism and Neoconservatism" seems extremely strange to me. The opening claim "The neoconservative or "neocon" movement has been widely associated with Trotskyism..." is especially strange, as the political distance between Trotskyism and Neoconservatism is about as large as it gets. It seems utterly improbable that these two ideologies are associated by anyone other than the occasional fruitcake, and the suspicious phrase "has been widely associated" only adds to that. Anecdotes about ex-Trotskyists who became neocons are irrelevant and serve only to illustrate the confusion and/or opportunism of those individuals. The supposed link between Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution and neoconservative ideology is demonstrated only by some wordplay from some bullshitting political shapeshifter. I propose removal of the entire section. Jon Sneyers, 128.250.33.84 02:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Animal Farm is an allegory. It is more of a satire.
More like anti-Soviet rantings "made for children".
-G
I was amazed to note that there seems to be little or nothing on Frida and the Mexican connection... (unsigned comment)
There are requests for a definition of Trotskyism. How about this.
What you you think? -- Duncan 12:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The section should be cut. I have removed it an put it below
The supposed desire of the neocons to spread democracy abroad has been likened to the Trotskyist theory of permanent revolution. Author Michael Lind argues that the neoconservatives are influenced by the thought of former Trotskyists such as James Burnham and Max Shachtman, who argued that "the United States and similar societies are dominated by a decadent, postbourgeois ' new class.'" He sees the neoconservative concept of "global democratic revolution" as deriving from the Trotskyist Fourth International's "vision of permanent revolution." He also points to what he sees as the Marxist origin of "the economic determinist idea that liberal democracy is an epiphenomenon of capitalism," which he describes as "Marxism with entrepreneurs substituted for proletarians as the heroic subjects of history." However, few leading neoconservatives cite James Burnham as a major influence, as he differed with them on many issues. [5]
The association of former Trotskyists like Christopher Hitchens - once a member of the International Socialists (UK) - with neocons since 2001 has contributed to neoconservativism's association with Trotskyism. [6] Other former Trotskyists associated with neoconservativism include Willmoore Kendall ( William F. Buckley, Jr.'s mentor) and Stephen Schwartz (a former member of the Fomento Obrero Revolucionario). Schwartz has stated, "To a great extent, I still consider myself to be [one of the] disciples of L.D (the initials from Trotsky's birth name, Lev Davidovich Bronstein)." [7]
However, Stephen Schwartz has claimed there is an anti-semitic motive behind this association: "The U.S. neofascists who have thrown this accusation around use the term 'Trotskyist' the same way they use the term 'neoconservative': as a euphemism for 'Jew.'" [8]
It may be of interest to the editors that the term 'Trotskyism' dates back at least to 1907. The term was used by Pavel Milyukov, the ideological leader of the Constitutional Democratic party (Kadets) in Russia, in a postscript to his book, The elections to the second state Duma published no later than May 1907.
Trotsky quoted from Milyukov's The elections to the second state Duma in a speech in May 1907. Milyukov explains that even the Kadets were moved to the left under the spell of the 1905 revolution, saying
“ | ...Those who now reproach the Kadets with failure to protest [in 1905] by organising meetings against the 'revolutionary illusions' of Trotskyism and the relapse into Blanquism, simply do not understand - or have forgotten - the mood of the democractic public at meetings during that period." (Milyukov, quoted by Trotsky in 1905, Pelican Books, (1971) p295) | ” |
Trotsky says that "Mr Milyukov does me too much honour by connecting my name with the period when the revolution reached its highest point." But in fact Trotsky is defending his leadership of the 1905 revolution, when he became Chairman of the Soviet or workers' council in Saint Petersburg, against the criticsm of the Menshevics, who argued that Russia was not ripe for revolution. Trotsky argues that Milyukov uses much the same arguments but in a blunter, plainer form. Trotsky rejects Blanquism, however, in favour of his theory of Permanent Revolution.
Trotsky's speech is given the title The Party of the Proletariat and the Bourgois Parties in the Revolutions in the book 1905, and was made at the London congress of the "Russian Social-democractic revolutionary Party" of 12 - 25 May 1907 according to the footnote appended on p290 of 1905, (Chapter 23, p290).
I have no idea whether or how this information may be of use in the article. Andysoh 23:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps trying to add in this section, which is seems mainly to be based on comments by bloggers, and is not a notable aspect of trotskyism. Unless we find noteable, reliable references, this section does not belong in the article. -- Duncan 12:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"Trotskyists, in their own defense, point to the best days of the early Soviet State and to the economic achievements of the planned economy during the 20's and 30's (despite the "misleadership" of the Stalinist bureaucracy.)"
I really do doubt that Trotsky himself approved of the NEP after the Civil War until 1927/28, especially with its re-introduction of partial capitalism. This is shown in Lenin's disapproval of Trotsky's stance in his Last Testament (amongst other things). Nor, do i belive he would have advocated the introduction of wage differentials at the expense of Egalitarianism. Both of these appear to cross over into a liberal free-market economy which Trotsky was full-heartedly against. I suggest removing this statement. 82.18.226.41 19:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Andysoh 20:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, i agree with alteration. thanks for clearing that up. 82.18.226.41 14:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
References
A wiki editor has posted a series of requests for references history. I am sure he has done us a favour. We should supply plentiful references, demonstrating clearly the factual nature of the article and the struggle against Stalinism. I am happy to help supply them. Andysoh 22:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There are requests for a definition of Trotskyism. How about this.
Trotskyism is defined by four key elements.
What you you think? -- Duncan 12:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Duncan, good work on all this. I approve of the additions/changes.
DavidMIA
06:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
References
This is getting too long, especially since there's a perfectly good page on Permanent Revolution already. Can we consolidate these and simply provide 100 words and a link? -- Duncan 13:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
While "Stalinism" is a term used by Trotskyists, I feel it is inappropriate for Wikipedia as it almost always carries a pejorative connotation. "Trotskyism" is often used by the latter-day followers of Trotsky but those who identify with Stalin would never describe themselves as "Stalinists" but as Marxist-Leninists as they consider that Stalin continued Lenin's work. In addition many of those labeled "Stalinists" renounced Stalin decades ago.
As for "Stalinist betrayal" this is far from neutral.
Reply:
Camillus
talk|
contribs
23:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
That's very interesting. Thank you. I think most supporters of Trotsky call themselves Trotskyists, so that's okay to use. However, I am still curious to see if there might be an alternative to "Stalinist" that might not offend those who, in general, consider there to more good in Stalin's contribution than bad (to paraphrase Mao's comments on Stalin). Few Eurocommunists would have used the phrase "Marxist-Leninist". Any ideas? -- DuncanBCS 23:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
More:
Duncan (I presume that's your name?), thanks for your aknowledgement.
Yes, those who see themselves as in the M-E-L-Stalin trend are not keen on the phrase "Stalinist", they prefer "Marxist-Leninist" - the problem is, what do others call them, as I said above, "Marxist-Leninist" leaves out the "Trotsky/Stalin" question? Probably the best description which they won't mind, and is more accurate is "anti-revisionist".
As for the Eurocommunists, I would contend that they're all "dead" anyway (as far as this discussion goes), as most of them have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and wouldn't even call themselves Marxists any more...
However, maybe we're getting off-point, as this is the Talk page for Trotskyism...just a thought...
Camillus
talk|
contribs
00:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Reply:
Camillus
talk|
contribs
11:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Reply: Actually, the terms "Trotksyite" and "Trotskyism" go at least back to Lenin: 'Hence it is clear that Trotsky and the “Trotskyites and conciliators” like him are more pernicious than any liquidator; the convinced liquidators state their views bluntly, and it is easy for the workers to detect where they are wrong, whereas the Trotskys deceive the workers, cover up the evil, and make it impossible to expose the evil and to remedy it. Whoever supports Trotsky’s puny group supports a policy of lying and of deceiving the workers, a policy of shielding the liquidators. Full freedom of action for Potresov and Co. in Russia, and the shielding of their deeds by “revolutionary” phrase-mongering abroad—there you have the essence of the policy of “Trotskyism”.' (Lenin, Collected Works, Vol. 17, pp. 242-244) One could easily say, based on a huge array of Lenin's writings (including this quote), that Lenin was opposed to "Trotskyism," and therefore the phrase still originated with Trotsky's opponents, but the terms can hardly be suggested to have originated with Stalin, as this runs completely counter to the historical record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.50.226 ( talk) 19:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Even if we assume that followers of Trotsky were "physically exterminated", the point that they failed to lead any successful revolution after that still holds true. Srijon ( talk) 06:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note that I am talking about AFTER 1920's. Trotsky couldn't have done anything for U.S.S.R. after that because he was exiled in 1929. As for Michel Pablo, smuggling arms from a different country cannot be called "playing a central role" or "leading the revolution" as such. Srijon ( talk) 11:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The correctness and importance of a revolutionary socio-political theory is largely understood by considering the amount of revolutionary practice dependant on it. So this fact happens to be the most important one in the introduction. Srijon ( talk) 17:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
User: Political Dweeb here with a question. I think I may have put this question on this page before but it is a question on Trotsky who said on one of the paragraphs on his Final months he called himself “an irreconcilable atheist” meaning being completely and personally opposed to religion.
With Trotsky being personally opposed to religion does that mean the ideology representing his ideas called Trotskyism promotes either separating religion from all communities and states? Or is it to believe in the world existing without all of its religions?
I put these questions up so someone on Wikipedia can clarify this political position of Trotskyism so I or anyone else could learn this position in politics.I will be thankful for any reply thank you. Political Dweeb ( talk)
The Anarchist Emma Goldman, who was in Petrograd at the time of the rebellion, criticised Leon Trotsky for his role in the suppression of the rebellion, arguing that this made his later criticism of Stalin's regime hypocritical.[14] Trotsky, however, responded that Goldman's criticisms were mainly perfunctory, and ignored the differing social composition between the pro-Bolshevik Kronstadt Uprising of 1917 and the mainly "petty bourgeois" Kronstadt Uprising of 1921.[15] 192.30.202.29 ( talk) 20:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite surprised by the absence of a Criticism section. Trotskyism is nearly treated as something everybody praises. Why isn't there even the beginning of a criticism ? Who could add them? -- 217.128.229.101 ( talk) 23:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
We could start by stating that they have not conducted any armed struggle for the past half a century. 203.196.190.162 ( talk) 18:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Could you please elaborate and add this to the "Trotskyist Movements" section ? 203.196.190.162 ( talk) 07:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Degenerated workers' state#Merge Discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by QFlux ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
It is an article of faith among Trotskyists that Stalin was the first to put forward the idea of 'Socialism in one country'. This is constantly asserted all over Wikipedia. When one tries to show that this is untrue, the evidence is suppressed. Lenin's 1915 article 'The United States of Europe Slogan', for example, said, “Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence the victory of socialism is possible first in several or even in one capitalist country taken separately. The victorious proletariat of that country, having expropriated the capitalists and organised its own socialist production, would stand up against the rest of the world, the capitalist world.” Stevenjp ( talk) 14:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Most wikipedia articles start with a basic definition. This one starts out with an outline. Then like everything else in communism "The first fourth of the ten year period of the five year plan...blah blah blah." My understanding of the average user that would come to this page is this: One sees the word in print, looks it up and goes back to what one was reading. I would like to find out what it is. I don't want to read 10 pages on the history of something that I have no idea what it is. I'm such a scatterbrain that if the definition is remotely interesting I would probably read it anyway though. I was looking up Albert Camus. He was denounced by his friends as a "Trotskyite". I will have to look elsewhere to find out what it is. How about a 2 sentence definition at the top of the page.
Ahem. Came here trying to find out what type of communist might be a trotskyite. I still have no idea, because there are way to many loooong paragraphs and no concise definition at the start. "follower of trotsky's ideas" doesn't cut it- that tell me nothing.:-)
Piyrwq
00:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
The answer to your request for a definition is that Trotskyism is whatever someone wants it to be, since Trotsky is dead and is unlikely to argue the case. To judge from the contributions to this article, the political idea of Troskyism cannot be abstracted sufficiently from the man himself. Perhaps this article should be moved to a more relevant place, like "History's Political Dustbin". RIP, Leon! -- ChiJoker
"the average user that would come to this page is this: One sees the word in print, looks it up and goes back to what one was reading. I would like to find out what it is. I don't want to read 10 pages on the history of something that I have no idea what it is." - This describes exactly what happened to me just now. Can someone qualified please provide a clear, concise definition? It would be greatly appreciated. CanadianMist 20:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I now have a three sentence opening for those who won't read more:-
“ | Trotskyism is a trend of
Marxist thought and action associated with
Leon Trotsky, who with
Vladimir Lenin led the
Russian Revolution of 1917. One of Trotskyism's defining characteristics is its critique of the leadership of the Soviet Union. With various exceptions Trotskyists tend to criticse what they call the growth of a bureaucracy in the Soviet Union, which took power as a reflection of the backwardness and isolation of the country and as part of the process of the degeneration of the Russian revolution.
Whilst Stalin’s ‘theory’ of socialism in one country argued that it was possible to build socialism in Russia in isolation from the rest of the world, Trotskyists argue that this negated the most basic ideas of Marxism. Trotskyists claim to defend the basic ideas of Marxism and of Lenin. Whilst Communists praised the Soviet Union, Trotskyists claimed that the 1917 Russian revolution "degenerated" due to the economic backwardness of the country, and its isolation due to the failure of revolution to spread to the advanced capitalist countries. Trotskyists championed the idea of international revolution. (See section: Trotsky, the Russian Revolution, and Stalin) The term 'Trotskyism' was used as a term of abuse by opponents of Trotsky in 1924, particularly in contrast to the ideas of Joseph Stalin, who had developed the 'theory' of " Socialism in one country". Trotskyists tend to defend the theory of Permanent Revolution. |
” |
i see no other reference to it than right in the begining and it claims to be cheifly british and canadian. i question the people who may use this word and how they would use it with out anyother claims being laid to its use or origin.-- i am a fan of any and all contributers to wikipedia, espically the ones devoting time to categories!!--Dieselweasel ( talk) 21:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if examples count as citations, but I came across this a bit ago.
They's definitely Brits dere! :-) Shenme ( talk) 11:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Trot n. Inf. a follower of Trotsky; Trotskyite.
I was having a quick scan through this section and notice a glaring mistake. 'Despite the fact that most, like Stalin, saw Trotsky's role in the October 1917 Russian revolution as central...' Rather than dispute the arbitory use of like most, there is solid evidence that Stalin did not see Trotsky's role in the October Revolution as central. The proof of this is in Stalin's 1924 speach Trotskyism or Leninism?. Stalin's accusses Trotsky of creating this myth along with several others.
Also the The 'legend of Trotskyism' is also borderline of incorrect. The first bloc was Zinoviev, Kamenev and Stalin, it was Zinoviev in particular that waged war against Trotskyism,during this period Stalin was very moderate in his attacks of Trotsky, it was not until the issue of perminate revolution and socialism in one country did Bukharin and Stalin come together, although this mentioned, the lack of information between Lenin's death and 1926 leaves a large gap in why and how Trotskyism was an issue. Bukharin was not the singlar figure against Trotsky in deciding which way the Soviet Union would proceed. Zinoviev once again played a prominate role in this arguement and the ideal of Socialism in One Country is Stalin's
Continually quoting Trotsky's later works in perpetuating the myth that Trotsky's view was the correct one. Nothing in Bolshevk or Soviet History is as simple as this. The likes of Sarah Davies, James Harris and Adam Ulam have re-examined both old and more recent archives and have established that the view of those such as Trotsky, Conquest and Service are starting from a particular premise that has no guarantee of being correct. Soviet History no matter which figure is viewed is largely based on assumption and hearsay, especially when dealing with anything Trotsky had to say on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kytekay ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a great difference between the idea that the revolution might succeed first in one advanced capitalist nation (eg, Germany) and stabilize there for a while before it spread to others (eg UK), which is what Lenin was talking about, and the idea that it might succeed in one non-industrialized nation (eg Russia) first and stabilize there, before spreading to the advanced capitalist nations, which was what Stalin was saying. DGG ( talk) 20:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
We have a little flurry of reverting. Let's talk. I think there's a problem with the term Stalinism. It's POV, since none of the people Trotsky disagreed with called themselves a Stalinist. They would call themselves Marxist-Leninist, which is the accepted term for Moscow/Beijing communism. I suggest we use M-L as a term, rather than Stalinist. Soman had wisely added in a form of words like ', although Trotsky's ideas also stemmed from Marx and Lenin,'. That also beens helpful to me. -- Duncan 08:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
pretty integral part of trotsky's ideology, entire page fails to even make a reference. Inclusion would certainly offer an appropriate balance to the pro socialist dribble that covers the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.222.121 ( talk) 10:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been impressed by the work done above gathering together what are the key defining points of 'Trotskyism' that differentiate it from other theoretical currents in marxism. The one major point that appears to be missing is the use of a 'Transitional Programme', derived from Trotsky's work 'The Death Agony of Capitalism and the Tasks of The Fourth International' (1938)This is an approach where Trotskyists put forward 'transitional demands' that act as a 'bridge' between the minimal programme of reformists, and the maximal programme of the socialist transformation of society; demands that help to alleviate the basic problems that the working class face but also point in the direction of fundamentally changing society through the working class taking over, replacing capitalism with a democratically planned economy.
These demands, transitional demands as Trotsky refers to them, act as a bridge between answering the immediate problems of working people and the socialist transformation of society, the ultimate solution to all the separate issues.
I can see some potential for editorial conflict here, as different strands of Trotskyism attach different levels of importance to the Transitional programme, and have different understandings of what constitutes a 'transitional demand', but I don't think an article on Trotskyism can be complete without some treatment of the Transitional Programme. River sider ( talk) 10:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I've removed a paragraph - intending at first to move it - as I found it was a distortion of Lenin's remarks.
The section removed reads:
Importantly, Trotsky was also the early paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army. Due to their already-existing political differences, this affected Trotsky's relationship with Joseph Stalin, who was leader of the underground wing of the Bolsheviks at that time, and the two clashed on several occasions during the revolutionary phase. Also, Lenin had numerous rather biting criticisms of Trotsky's ideas and intra-Party political habits even before the Revolution. In a 1914 article titled “Disruption of Unity”, Lenin struck at Trotsky's factionalist tendencies and stated, "Under cover of ‘non-factionalism’ Trotsky...lacks definite principles and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia. ...All that glitters is not gold. There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless." [1]
There are many problems with this edit, which seems to be a bit of cut and paste from anti-Trotskyist articles. (For instance, Stalin was not leader of the underground "at that time" that Trotsky was leader of the red army!)
Lenin actually writes:
"Under cover of “non-factionalism” Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles, and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia." http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/may/x01.htm
Now clearly it is the "group abroad" which "lacks definite principles" while the edit makes Lenin says Trotsky lacks principles, etc.
I consequently felt that the para following was also too POV to be justified where it was placed, as well as lacking citations. Andysoh ( talk) 21:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
References
arent the Scottish socialist party marketed as an alternative to the majority of Trotskyist socialist party's in the uk ? and couldnt it be argue that they and the SWP the main troyskyist party in the uk do not always get on, can I see a reference for them being included in the European section ? 89.241.192.58 ( talk) 20:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Any good reason for having two separate sections about the Theory of Permanent Revolution? Except for the use of caps, they're even called the same:
The most logical solutions would be to merge them, or rename one them (making the difference between the two subsections more obvious). 62.107.217.223 ( talk) 04:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi!
Please look at Vietnamese Trotskyism, which is of interest because of (1) Vietnam seems to have been the only country in the world where Trotskyists had a mass following (if one discounts the Minneapolis Teamsters ...) and (2) the life expectancy of Trotskyist leaders dropped dramatically in 1945.
Apart from these facts, my knowledge and interest are exhausted.
Now, for you real Trotskyists, please do not come to my articles and start selling newspapers and asking 40-minute questions whether the USSR be a degenerated workers' state, etc.! ;)
Sincerely, Kiefer. Wolfowitz 12:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
In first place, Im argentinian, and I dont have such a firm grasp of english. so I wont be editing the article, since Im pretty sure it wouldnt meet WP standards; thats why Im asking for it here. (As you may notice, Im also a bunch of numbers, since I have no username... Sorry about that :P )
I think the article should reflect the 2011 elections in Argentina, where a coalition of trostyte parties (the "Frente de Izquierda y de los Trabajadores", wich means "Workers and Left-Wing Coalition", a coalition of the Partido Obrero, the Partido de los Trabajadores socialistas and Izquierda Socialista) got almost 500.000 votes on the presidential election (source: http://www.elecciones2011.gob.ar/paginas/paginas/dat99/DPR99999A.htm ), and some more on the legislative one (and some of its candidates were elected, like Alejandro Lopez or Liliana Olivero). I think it shold be reflected.
Also, it should be noted that trotskysm is playing a somewhat significant role in argentine politics, like in the Kraft strike (and the recent elections of the Food Industry Union, where the far left opposition got 40% of the votes, with the totskytes being its main candidates), the takeover of the Zanon factory by its workers, the subway and trains strikes and unions, the students unions, and many, many more.
May some editor fix this?
Some sources for my statements:
http://pts.org.ar/spip.php?article20521
http://www.ambito.com/diario/noticia.asp?id=606585
http://www.herramienta.com.ar/revista-herramienta-n-42/expropiar-zanon
http://www.pts.org.ar/spip.php?article19936
Thanks!
201.235.92.101 (
talk)
01:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove Template:Conformity from this article. Its presence is a clear violation of wikipedia's NPOV policy. 99.224.66.13 ( talk) 02:06, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
Callanecc (
talk •
contribs •
logs)
04:44, 12 September 2012 (UTC)About the section: "In Portugal's September 2009 parliamentary election, the Left Bloc won 558.062 votes, which translated into 9,82% of the expressed votes and the election of 16 (out of 230) deputies to the national parliament.[53] Although founded by several leftist tendencies, it still expresses much of the Trotskyist thought upheld and developed by its current leader, Francisco Louçã." Francisco Louçã is no longer the leader of the Left Bloc, the position is now held by Catarina Martins and João Semedo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.25.178 ( talk) 14:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Edited this from Lead, as it does not express Trotsky's opposition to ideas of Lenin, as it was said to do. It expresses Lenin's opposition to Trotsky, so should be in Lenin's article, to explain his thoughts: <<In his 1914 article “Disruption of Unity”, Lenin wrote, "Under cover of ‘non-factionalism’ Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia. All that glitters is not gold. There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless." [1]>> Parkwells ( talk) 14:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
References
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The second paragraph of the page on Trotskyism is currently:
V. I. Lenin and Trotsky were close both ideologically and personally during the Russian Revolution of 1917,[1] However Lenin later denounced Trotsky as a traitor and called him "Judas Trotsky"[2]. Trotsky was the paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army in the direct aftermath of the Revolutionary period.
The source, however, was written by Lenin in 1911 and only published in Pravda in 1932. Lenin and Trotsky had clashed many times before 1917, but worked well together after that. This memo was most likely published by the Stalinist bureaucracy as a way to discredit Trotsky after the fact.
Please change the paragraph to something along the lines of:
V.I. Lenin and Trotsky were close both ideologically and personally during and after the Russian Revolution of 1917, despite having had several heated disagreements in the past. Trotsky was the paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army in the direct aftermath of the Revolutionary period.
Thank you.
Dcm678 ( talk) 19:26, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi @ Aintiainti,
I do not agree that Stalinism and Marxism–Leninism refer to the same ideology. After all, there are two distinct articles on the two subjects. The section Stalinism#Relationship to Leninism makes it clear that the two are related, but not the same. I suggest changing the phrasing from "Trotskyists are critical of Stalinism (also called Marxism-Leninism)" to "Trotskyists are critical of Marxism-Leninism and Stalinism". What do you think? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 09:38, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi,
I don't think that your phrasing would be useful, because to someone who does not understand that Marxists-Leninists are their own political grouping, they may be led to believe that Trotsky opposed Marx and Lenin, and not simply Stalin. I think there should be something written that says that Marxist-Leninists subscribe heavily to Stalinism.
Aintiainti (
talk)
11:54, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
First time post to wikipedia--which is great, I love it--but this article is pretty bad so I had to respond. First of all Trotskyists would never refer to themselves as "Trotskyites"--a word which this article seems to use interchangeably. "Trotskyite" is a slur a Stalinist would use, often inaccurately, to describe an enemy; "Trotskyist" is a political ideology many people claim. Calling Trotskyists "Trotskyites" is like calling communists "commies" or calling the Democratic Party "the Democrat Party"--it's an insult that is used to amuse or enrage, depending on the context.
Secondly I laughed to see the Socialist Workers Party (US) listed with the Socialist Workers Party (Britain) as a prime example of Trotskyism. First of all these two organizations come from very different branches of Trotskyism. Second, the SWP (US) was the main Trotskyist organization in the US up until (arguably) the early 80s, when it imploded and split into several competing tendencies. What is left of the SWP is arguably not Trotskyist; at the very least it represents a non-orthodox form of Trotskyism that more or less rejects Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution. The most emblematic representatives of Trotskyism in the US are the International Socialist Organization (a relatively large, fairly white, group based mainly around college campuses and recent ex-students which positions itself slightly to the left of reformism; the ISO differs from orthodox Trotskyism in that it considers the former Soviet Union and other "communist" countries as "state capitalist" rather than "deformed or degenerated workers' states") and the Spartacist League (a relatively medium-small group which prides itself on doctrinal purity, fights with other Trotskyists, and tries to take over meetings).
I'm a little intimidated of trying to edit the article myself, but I would be happy to try in conjunction with some other people. What's there now isn't a very full picture and is inaccurate in some respects.
Kod65red 03:11, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've rewriten the first sentence of the last para which contained a reference to a 'communist state'. While one might get away with using such an expression in everyday life it won't do in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. For the simple fact that the very idea of a communist state is a contradiction in terms. Communism is the abscence of a state and of classes in Marxian theory. Lenin went so far as to describe a workers' state as a bourgeois state minus the bourgeoisie. This was in order to indicate that the workers' state was the beginning of the transition to communism and a society that was truly egalitarian and therefore stateless. How anyone can write such guff is beyond me.
Jock Haston
I agree with this poster. This article says a great deal about nothing. It doesn't in any way explain the key tenets of Trotskyism and how they relate to other offshoots of communism. It is confusing and poorly written. Someone should go through this article and completely rewrite it, this time focusing on what Trotskyism is and how it compares to other kinds of socialism.
This is my opinion as a reader of this article. 128.2.237.8 19:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)Anonymous
I removed the following paragraph from the International Revolution section as it seemed extremely unclear and in serious need of additional sources:
This was the position, contrary to that of classical Marxism which by that time had been further illuminated by active life, shared by Trotsky and Lenin and the Bolsheviks until 1924 when Joseph Stalin, who along with Kamenev in February 1917 had taken the Menshevik position of first the bourgeois revolution, only to be confronted by Lenin and his famous April Theses on Lenin's return to Russia after the death of Lenin and seeking to consolidate his growing bureaucratic control of the Bolshevik Party began to put forward the slogan of "socialism in one country".
Lacannot ( talk) 19:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
It might be interesting to add what Trotskyists thought about the 1959 Cuban Revolution, and what the Cuban revolutionaries under Fidel Castro thought about Trotskyists. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 00:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
The article states the following without a source.
Nadezhda Krupskaya, Lenin's wife, was a Trotskyist after the death of Lenin.
The political actions of Krupskaya following Lenin's death are rather complicated, and this needs to be either elaborated upon, cited, or removed entirely. DeVos Max ( talk) 10:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to delete stuff from this talkpage with the justification of "not a forum" when one asks that the article should clarify about the symbolism of trotskyism? -- 2003:EF:1706:3268:DC05:37CC:C96A:2FCB ( talk) 08:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Given what the article itself establishes—that Trotsky's heirs and epigones are notoriously argumentative—it is surely impossible to define this 'ism' in a way which appears to everyone as an NPOV. One suggestion, though: for some people involved or associated with that movement, it is less a specific theory of Leon Trotsky's and more a tradition of political opposition to Stalinism that they identify with. Focusing on the tradition, not the theory, might make more sense. Adhib 08:18, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The section below seems to be clearly taking a political stance:
The International Socialist Organization supported Ralph Nader, an anti-socialist candidate in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. Britain's SWP supported George Galloway, an establishment Labor politician, in his campaign under the Respect Coalition, which included Islamist groups. Like Nader's campaign was meant to influence the Democrats, the Respect Coalition means to push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it with a party truly representing the working class. Both Nader and Galloway accept money from right-wing groups to help their campaign, Nader from Republicans and Galloway from Arab nationalist governments.
Calling Orwell a socialist writer is probably a stretch, too
Each group went through evolutions. Communist support to the British LP goes back to 1919, the Trotskyists called for a vote for Labour in the 1930s and onward, off and on, etc. You contribution here is not historical but really pollemical.
--David Walters
Encyclopedia of Trotskyism On Line
I wonder if this article needs a substantial reorganization. I get the impression that at each phase, someone has written another few sentences and then someone of the opposite viewpoint has edited them. So we have a positive presentation of Trotskyism and critiques of Trotskyism meshed together, and every line reads differently.
My proposal is that we reorganize the article more systematically, with a new section entitled "Critiques of Trotskyism" or something like that. Then the pejoratives and so forth could be organized under that header, and it might be easier to read. -- Kod65red 23:21, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Till then, I've fixed the final sentence that referred to "communist states".-- Che y Marijuana 01:13, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Could the person who has slapped a neutrality dispute label on this article have the decency to explain this action?
As it stands the article is messy and shows all too clearly the signs of many hands. Some of whom lack any real degree of knowledge about the topic. But there is very little in the article that goes beyond the simple reporting of what Trotskyism is. Albeit it does that none too well but thats another matter.
The only real stuff that crosses the line re NPOV concerns Stalin and that will be gone very soon.
Jock Haston
While I can't take credit for the correct placement of a neutrality label here, I found that an easy request. "Trotskyists are mostly ignored by historians and politicians except when they faced police repression and slander. It is unusual for them to get a fair hearing of their views." Is the author stating a fact, editorializing, or crazed with Troskyitis? -- ChiJoker
Hi, new to wikipedia myself, just thought I could present an example of the above point.
In Great Britain, the Guardian, a newspaper generally seen as left-leaning, recently reported how PM Tony Blair had compared the actions of right-wing political Islam to those of Militant (the former Marxist tendency within the Labour Party, the members of whom formed the Socialist Party upon their expulsion from Labour), without pointing out that the SP are "opposed to all acts of state and individual terrorism" ('state terrorism' refers to warfare conducted by any government).
Perhaps the above instance could be quoted so as to provide a context for the passage in question? -- Lindsay
I'm new to Wikipedia and the farthest thing from an expert on Trotskyism, but I've studied the history and the discussion threads about this article, and I don't understand why it's still such a grammatical, syntactical and factual nightmare.
There simply must be an introductory paragraph that gives an otherwise uniformed reader some idea of what Trotskyism actually "is". Further explanations of vastly different perspectives on Troskyism, as well as how its views changed over time, are good and necessary—but only AFTER some sort of factual and dispassionate defining of the main idea.
Otherwise, this is all just a dog chasing its tail. And it's terrible for Wikipedia's credibility.-- BrentDanzig 28 June 2005 15:05 (UTC)
Since the above was written a large parrt of the article has been substantially rewritten and greatly expanded. Theres more to follow including reference, further reading and so forth. In a sense there can be no definition as to what trotskyism was because it was not and is not a "thing in itself". Trotskyism began as a defence of the Marxist Leninism of the Comintern. It continued as an evolving set of ideas and political tactics as it was forced to respond to events. For Trotskyists it was and is simply the Marxism of today nothing more noting less. I'll add an introd=uctory note making this point, in an NPOV fashion, asap. Probably after I've completed the final section.
Anyhow I hope the grammatical problems and so forth are less now than was the case. but feel free to correct my spelling and so forth. heck you are free to do so what am i saying! Silly me hum?
Now a question would it be a good idea to make the new section - Trotskyism in Literature - an entry in its own right?
Jock Haston
The caption of the picture of the Brazilian poster calls it "propaganda". I propose to change this to "advertisement" for the following reasons:
Oh, and by the way, it currently says "progapanda" which is a typo as well.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have editited the below passage somewhat as it seemed anything but impartial:
The International Socialist Organization supported Ralph Nader, an anti-socialist candidate in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. Britain's SWP supported George Galloway, an establishment Labor politician, in his campaign under the Respect Coalition, which included Islamist groups. Like Nader's campaign was meant to influence the Democrats, the Respect Coalition means to push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it with a party truly representing the working class. Both Nader and Galloway accept money from right-wing groups to help their campaign, Nader from Republicans and Galloway from Arab nationalist governments.
Firstly, the claim that Galloway's aim was to "push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it". I do not know enough about Nader to comment on that part, but I have yet to see any evidence that this was Galloway's stated aim or any general consensus on this. It is an opinion (and a valid one) but it should be stated as such.
Islamic (or Muslim) is a far more appropriate term than Islamist for the groups involved in Respect.
Labour is spelt wrong (either labor or Labour, please (proper noun of a British group, therefore it's still spelt as such even when written by an American)).
"establishment labor politician" wreaks of bias, and isn't even true (though it arguably once was). "Former Labour MP" is far more accurate, and an undisputed fact.
I don't know whether the last sentence is true (if it is I suspect there's a lot more too it than meets the eye). Either way, I think it was only put there to disparage Nader/Galloway, but I've left it in... for now.
-- 4.152.102.39 13:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to re-open this. The entry into the CPs was adopted at the 51 World Congress: before the ICFI and ISFI separated. The entire FI accepted the positions of the 48 and 51 world congresses. Pablo didn't argue for doing deals, but for long term entry. All of this is much better explain on the ICFI, USFI, ICFI and Pablo pages. -- DuncanBCS 18:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. This is just one flavour of trotskyism - there are many, many organisations calling themselves 'the fourth international' Secretlondon 17:42, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)
NPOV: "Trotskyists are mostly ignored by historians and politicians except when they faced police repression and slander. It is unusual for them to get a fair hearing of their views."
Amusing as this sort of POV pushing is, it ought to be revised.
How about "Trotskyists argue that their views are mostly ignored or slandered by politicians and the media. Examples which could be cited are that in Great Britain the Guardian, a newspaper generally seen as left-leaning, printed an article containing the following statement:
'At last week's cabinet meeting, Mr Blair likened Islamic extremism to the Trotskyist Militant Tendency that infiltrated Labour in the 80s...' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,1531397,00.html>
The insinuation that Militant and Trotskyists in general utilise terrorism was not challenged in the body of the article. A letter of protest from the Socialist Party (formerly Militant) general secretary was subsequently printed:
'You report that Tony Blair, "likened Islamic extremism to the Trotskyist Militant Tendency" (Report, July 19). This is an outrageous slur. Militant Tendency, now the Socialist party, has always condemned terrorism, both of individuals and groups and the state terrorism of the US and British governments that is estimated to have resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians in Iraq. It does not bode well for civil liberties in the wake of 7/7 that the prime minister is prepared to malign socialists who have opposed his neoliberal, warmongering policies by equating them with terrorists.' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,,1533025,00.html>
The SP's right to reply was observed, but the fact remains that they were originally misrepresented. Additionally, during the general election the SP supported its claim that 'in general there is a media blackout at national and local levels of our campaign':
'We thought we might get a better opportunity to show how our policies could appeal to voters, given a proper airing, by participating in Newsnight’s film on political speed dating which went out on Monday 24 April. Nancy Taaffe, the Socialist Party candidate in Walthamstow appeared for us and did spectacularly well. Nancy came joint second beating all the establishment parties and groups like UKIP or Respect, which have had far more national media coverage because of the high profile of former MPs Robert Kilroy-Silk or George Galloway.
'However, our hopes of seeing this fantastic performance on TV, albeit at the late time of 11pm in a light-hearted piece on the election, were bitterly disappointed.
'Although we had some reservations that the piece may have over-trivialised the election and that we would not be given a fair bite of the cherry, we were reassured by the producer that every candidate would be featured. Out of all the candidates, Nancy was given the least time, just three seconds, and was the only one not to get mentioned by name.' < http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2005/389/index.html?id=np3c.htm>
Lindsay
I am sure lyndon LaRouche is not looked upon with much warmth, given the fact that he is no longer a Trotskyist, or a Marxist of any sort (and, of course, the altercations during his Operation Mop-Up days). But he has retained much of his Socialist outlook nevertheless (bassically, he supports strict government restrictions on corporate activity and trade, as well as government investment in said corporations, particularly for large-scale poblic works and engineering projects, such as energy, water distribution, and space travel), and he did not outright denounce Marx or even Lenin when he changed, just that Marx used some faulty reasoning concerning the nature of the class struggle (an ancient cabal of aristocrats, centered around the Babylonian cult, and remember, is not religion/magick, second to prostitution, the oldest proffession?).
Some people go so far as to call him a Stalinist, or even a full blown Nazi (though, I want to make it clear, Dennis King is, inevitably, more fascist than LaRouche, given the recent information regarding that gangster Mao Tze-Tung, who improved upon Stalin's penchant for abusing a governmental structure).
Is their any reconciliation possible? 69.248.43.27 05:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Could we possibly discuss Sydney Hook? I recall reading that he was still very loyal to Trotsky. --Again, thank you, you where all very cordiel, in conrast to the steriotype presented from both right and left, stay on track, 69.248.43.27 00:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following sections, which are unsupported and replaced sections in which the views of the antagonists had been summarised in their own words.
A neutral recasting of this could be: Pablo's view was the the masses could push some communist parties into anti-imperialist actions, as was evidenced by the overturns in China and Yugoslavia. In their opinion, the threat of a Third World War would also polarise the labout movement, and would send a wave of radical militants into the Communist and Social Democratic parties. The 1951 World Congress concluded that sections in countries with mass workers party should conduct entrism of a special type: while not dissolving their organisations or the International, they should work as secretly as necessary in order to develop a revolutionary current in those parties. The 1951 Congress argued these parties could be pushed to different conclusions. The Soviet Union overturned capitalism in the buffer states countries because of the military and political results of World War II, and only after its attempts at placating capitalism failed to protect those countries from the threat of incursion by the West. However, the overturns in China and Yugoslavia were conducted against the wishes of the Soviet bureacracy.
Any suggestions on how to move forward? -- Duncan 13:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
There are other pages which list the Trotskyist groups; and each group's listing includes its URL. From time to time supporters of one group or another add links to their group to the external links page, ofen citing that the new URL includes material by Trotsky. While this is done in good faith, the nett effect is both to add no new material by Trotsky [since everything online is at marxists.org] and to open the route for every group to list its URL on every page that touches on Trotskyism. This would introduce substantial duplicated information into Wikipedia, which is not a directory. If you are thinking of adding a link to this page, or similar pages, feel free to raise the suggestion on the Talk page first. Thanks. -- Duncan 18:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I find it very doubtful that Orwell was a Trotskyist. As far as I know he never claimed such a thing. If there are sources for this then they should be listed, otherwise it should be removed.
Why is the claim of few Trotskyists in the Third World disputed? It doesn't make sense to demand "support" of a statement that few Third World revolutionaries embrace Trotskyism. Point to some Trotskyist parties in the Third World if you can. I don't know of a single one, though I do know of various other Marxist trends that are active there.
I have restored the sentence, with "rejected by Third World revolutionaries" changed to "rare among Third World revolutionaries". Shorne 16:55, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With regard to Bolshevik Leninist tendencies in the former colonial world—note the term Third World is not to be found in the Trotskyist lexicon—there were many. For example the largest workers party in ceylon was the Lanka Sama Samaja Party. there remains a large milieu of Trot groups in ceylon to this day. In Vietnam the Bolshevik Leninism was a large tendency in Siagon until it was persecuted and its leaders murdered by the Stalinists who were working with the imperialists. Again in Bolivia the POR was a mass party among the indistrial working class and played a major role in then revolution of 1952. Trotskyism is till influential there too. oif brazil and Argentina are considered Thjird World thjere too are large influential groups There was a sizeable Trotskyist group in Cuba before it was repressed by Castro. Finally there is a large trotskyist group in Algeria with considerable representation in parliament.
Jock Haston
So I did another edit on the Trotskyism in the Third World bit. As it was written, it made it sound like Sri Lanka was the only less-developed country with a significant Trotskyist presence, which is false. Without going into long comparisons with other tendencies, perhaps this is an improvement? -- Kod65red 23:22, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually the second largest section of Committee for a Workers' International is the Nigerian one. -- Dalen 23:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Same about the International Marxist Tendency: the biggest section is the Pakistani one. The tale of Trotskyism as a West-centered trend has no foundation. -- MauroVan 09:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, they are sections of respective internationals in countries with very large populations. I think that it is correct to say that Trotskyism is West-centered in the sense that 1) the movement originated in Europe, 2) its theoretical and political leadership is based in Europe and 3) establishment of Trotskyist movements in the 3rd world tend to follow colonial patters (London-based internationals has sections in former British colonies, UCI or FI-Verité has sections in former French, etc.). Notably the Latin American-based internationals (essentially Morenoists) differ from this pattern (and do in some ways constitute a political microcosm of their own). I think one can say that Trotskyism did not get a mass following in the 3rd world compareable to the official Soviet m-l, antirevisionist interpretations of m-l (maoists, pro-albanians) or radical nationalism. Trotskyist groups, of a variety of international affiliations, are widely represented in virtually all Western countries, but the situation is hardly the same in the 3rd world. This of course has its historical explanation. -- Soman 10:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it's important not to discount memberships in large countries; it's more important to took at the nature of the party; whether it has a cadre-structure of whether its membership norma are more like social-democratic parties. For example, it's not unfair to say that the very largest Trotskyist parties have included the LSSP and NSSP in Sri Lanka; the Trotskyist organisations in Mexico, Brazil, Bolivia, Peru and Argentina have been very large; the Revolutionary Workers Party of Mindanao is also a mass organisation, with whose armed wing the Philippino government has negotiated.-- Duncan 10:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
''''May'''' I add something more? Obviously it was only in the developing world that the Trotskyist movement ever developed anything close to a mass base: 1. Vietnam had a Trotskyist party, organized mostly in southern Vietnam that actually WON the colonial elections in 1945. It had 10s of thousands of supporters and probably close to 3,000 members over two groups. 2. Sri-Lanka did have a mass trotskyist party, about 7,000 members at one point but an influence into the millions really. 3. The Bolivian POR was never a 'mass party', ever. It probably topped out at 800 members in and around 1951. But again, it *defined* Marxism in that country and again had a mass base, mostly among the 100,000 tin miners at the time, most of whom looked to the Fourth International as "their" vanguard. 4. The MAS in Argentina in the mid-1980s claimed to have topped out at 14,000 members, bigger than any left group but the official CP (albeit it too was more influential). 5. The official FI-La Verite group in Algeria, topped out at 8,000 members during the election about 6 years ago. members of that group told me that over 40,000 had actually asked to join in the wake of a succesful election campaign that saw the group there get 8% of the vote and 20 MPs.
David Walters
This is now too long, and is even listing organisations about which there is no Wikipedia entry. I propose to limit the organisations mentioned to those listed in the Trotskyism template, and to link to the list of Trotskyist Internationals for the rest. The only alternative would be for this section to get longer and longer, until it duplicates the list of internationals. -- Duncan 17:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the above proposal and think that any group that calls itself Trotskyist should be included. I personally don't think that how long an article is is really relevent. Leon Trotsky 11:52, 2 November 2006
The section "Trotskyism and Neoconservatism" seems extremely strange to me. The opening claim "The neoconservative or "neocon" movement has been widely associated with Trotskyism..." is especially strange, as the political distance between Trotskyism and Neoconservatism is about as large as it gets. It seems utterly improbable that these two ideologies are associated by anyone other than the occasional fruitcake, and the suspicious phrase "has been widely associated" only adds to that. Anecdotes about ex-Trotskyists who became neocons are irrelevant and serve only to illustrate the confusion and/or opportunism of those individuals. The supposed link between Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution and neoconservative ideology is demonstrated only by some wordplay from some bullshitting political shapeshifter. I propose removal of the entire section. Jon Sneyers, 128.250.33.84 02:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Animal Farm is an allegory. It is more of a satire.
More like anti-Soviet rantings "made for children".
-G
I was amazed to note that there seems to be little or nothing on Frida and the Mexican connection... (unsigned comment)
There are requests for a definition of Trotskyism. How about this.
What you you think? -- Duncan 12:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The section should be cut. I have removed it an put it below
The supposed desire of the neocons to spread democracy abroad has been likened to the Trotskyist theory of permanent revolution. Author Michael Lind argues that the neoconservatives are influenced by the thought of former Trotskyists such as James Burnham and Max Shachtman, who argued that "the United States and similar societies are dominated by a decadent, postbourgeois ' new class.'" He sees the neoconservative concept of "global democratic revolution" as deriving from the Trotskyist Fourth International's "vision of permanent revolution." He also points to what he sees as the Marxist origin of "the economic determinist idea that liberal democracy is an epiphenomenon of capitalism," which he describes as "Marxism with entrepreneurs substituted for proletarians as the heroic subjects of history." However, few leading neoconservatives cite James Burnham as a major influence, as he differed with them on many issues. [5]
The association of former Trotskyists like Christopher Hitchens - once a member of the International Socialists (UK) - with neocons since 2001 has contributed to neoconservativism's association with Trotskyism. [6] Other former Trotskyists associated with neoconservativism include Willmoore Kendall ( William F. Buckley, Jr.'s mentor) and Stephen Schwartz (a former member of the Fomento Obrero Revolucionario). Schwartz has stated, "To a great extent, I still consider myself to be [one of the] disciples of L.D (the initials from Trotsky's birth name, Lev Davidovich Bronstein)." [7]
However, Stephen Schwartz has claimed there is an anti-semitic motive behind this association: "The U.S. neofascists who have thrown this accusation around use the term 'Trotskyist' the same way they use the term 'neoconservative': as a euphemism for 'Jew.'" [8]
It may be of interest to the editors that the term 'Trotskyism' dates back at least to 1907. The term was used by Pavel Milyukov, the ideological leader of the Constitutional Democratic party (Kadets) in Russia, in a postscript to his book, The elections to the second state Duma published no later than May 1907.
Trotsky quoted from Milyukov's The elections to the second state Duma in a speech in May 1907. Milyukov explains that even the Kadets were moved to the left under the spell of the 1905 revolution, saying
“ | ...Those who now reproach the Kadets with failure to protest [in 1905] by organising meetings against the 'revolutionary illusions' of Trotskyism and the relapse into Blanquism, simply do not understand - or have forgotten - the mood of the democractic public at meetings during that period." (Milyukov, quoted by Trotsky in 1905, Pelican Books, (1971) p295) | ” |
Trotsky says that "Mr Milyukov does me too much honour by connecting my name with the period when the revolution reached its highest point." But in fact Trotsky is defending his leadership of the 1905 revolution, when he became Chairman of the Soviet or workers' council in Saint Petersburg, against the criticsm of the Menshevics, who argued that Russia was not ripe for revolution. Trotsky argues that Milyukov uses much the same arguments but in a blunter, plainer form. Trotsky rejects Blanquism, however, in favour of his theory of Permanent Revolution.
Trotsky's speech is given the title The Party of the Proletariat and the Bourgois Parties in the Revolutions in the book 1905, and was made at the London congress of the "Russian Social-democractic revolutionary Party" of 12 - 25 May 1907 according to the footnote appended on p290 of 1905, (Chapter 23, p290).
I have no idea whether or how this information may be of use in the article. Andysoh 23:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps trying to add in this section, which is seems mainly to be based on comments by bloggers, and is not a notable aspect of trotskyism. Unless we find noteable, reliable references, this section does not belong in the article. -- Duncan 12:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"Trotskyists, in their own defense, point to the best days of the early Soviet State and to the economic achievements of the planned economy during the 20's and 30's (despite the "misleadership" of the Stalinist bureaucracy.)"
I really do doubt that Trotsky himself approved of the NEP after the Civil War until 1927/28, especially with its re-introduction of partial capitalism. This is shown in Lenin's disapproval of Trotsky's stance in his Last Testament (amongst other things). Nor, do i belive he would have advocated the introduction of wage differentials at the expense of Egalitarianism. Both of these appear to cross over into a liberal free-market economy which Trotsky was full-heartedly against. I suggest removing this statement. 82.18.226.41 19:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Andysoh 20:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, i agree with alteration. thanks for clearing that up. 82.18.226.41 14:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
References
A wiki editor has posted a series of requests for references history. I am sure he has done us a favour. We should supply plentiful references, demonstrating clearly the factual nature of the article and the struggle against Stalinism. I am happy to help supply them. Andysoh 22:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There are requests for a definition of Trotskyism. How about this.
Trotskyism is defined by four key elements.
What you you think? -- Duncan 12:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Duncan, good work on all this. I approve of the additions/changes.
DavidMIA
06:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
References
This is getting too long, especially since there's a perfectly good page on Permanent Revolution already. Can we consolidate these and simply provide 100 words and a link? -- Duncan 13:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
While "Stalinism" is a term used by Trotskyists, I feel it is inappropriate for Wikipedia as it almost always carries a pejorative connotation. "Trotskyism" is often used by the latter-day followers of Trotsky but those who identify with Stalin would never describe themselves as "Stalinists" but as Marxist-Leninists as they consider that Stalin continued Lenin's work. In addition many of those labeled "Stalinists" renounced Stalin decades ago.
As for "Stalinist betrayal" this is far from neutral.
Reply:
Camillus
talk|
contribs
23:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
That's very interesting. Thank you. I think most supporters of Trotsky call themselves Trotskyists, so that's okay to use. However, I am still curious to see if there might be an alternative to "Stalinist" that might not offend those who, in general, consider there to more good in Stalin's contribution than bad (to paraphrase Mao's comments on Stalin). Few Eurocommunists would have used the phrase "Marxist-Leninist". Any ideas? -- DuncanBCS 23:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
More:
Duncan (I presume that's your name?), thanks for your aknowledgement.
Yes, those who see themselves as in the M-E-L-Stalin trend are not keen on the phrase "Stalinist", they prefer "Marxist-Leninist" - the problem is, what do others call them, as I said above, "Marxist-Leninist" leaves out the "Trotsky/Stalin" question? Probably the best description which they won't mind, and is more accurate is "anti-revisionist".
As for the Eurocommunists, I would contend that they're all "dead" anyway (as far as this discussion goes), as most of them have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and wouldn't even call themselves Marxists any more...
However, maybe we're getting off-point, as this is the Talk page for Trotskyism...just a thought...
Camillus
talk|
contribs
00:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Reply:
Camillus
talk|
contribs
11:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Reply: Actually, the terms "Trotksyite" and "Trotskyism" go at least back to Lenin: 'Hence it is clear that Trotsky and the “Trotskyites and conciliators” like him are more pernicious than any liquidator; the convinced liquidators state their views bluntly, and it is easy for the workers to detect where they are wrong, whereas the Trotskys deceive the workers, cover up the evil, and make it impossible to expose the evil and to remedy it. Whoever supports Trotsky’s puny group supports a policy of lying and of deceiving the workers, a policy of shielding the liquidators. Full freedom of action for Potresov and Co. in Russia, and the shielding of their deeds by “revolutionary” phrase-mongering abroad—there you have the essence of the policy of “Trotskyism”.' (Lenin, Collected Works, Vol. 17, pp. 242-244) One could easily say, based on a huge array of Lenin's writings (including this quote), that Lenin was opposed to "Trotskyism," and therefore the phrase still originated with Trotsky's opponents, but the terms can hardly be suggested to have originated with Stalin, as this runs completely counter to the historical record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.50.226 ( talk) 19:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Even if we assume that followers of Trotsky were "physically exterminated", the point that they failed to lead any successful revolution after that still holds true. Srijon ( talk) 06:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note that I am talking about AFTER 1920's. Trotsky couldn't have done anything for U.S.S.R. after that because he was exiled in 1929. As for Michel Pablo, smuggling arms from a different country cannot be called "playing a central role" or "leading the revolution" as such. Srijon ( talk) 11:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The correctness and importance of a revolutionary socio-political theory is largely understood by considering the amount of revolutionary practice dependant on it. So this fact happens to be the most important one in the introduction. Srijon ( talk) 17:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
User: Political Dweeb here with a question. I think I may have put this question on this page before but it is a question on Trotsky who said on one of the paragraphs on his Final months he called himself “an irreconcilable atheist” meaning being completely and personally opposed to religion.
With Trotsky being personally opposed to religion does that mean the ideology representing his ideas called Trotskyism promotes either separating religion from all communities and states? Or is it to believe in the world existing without all of its religions?
I put these questions up so someone on Wikipedia can clarify this political position of Trotskyism so I or anyone else could learn this position in politics.I will be thankful for any reply thank you. Political Dweeb ( talk)
The Anarchist Emma Goldman, who was in Petrograd at the time of the rebellion, criticised Leon Trotsky for his role in the suppression of the rebellion, arguing that this made his later criticism of Stalin's regime hypocritical.[14] Trotsky, however, responded that Goldman's criticisms were mainly perfunctory, and ignored the differing social composition between the pro-Bolshevik Kronstadt Uprising of 1917 and the mainly "petty bourgeois" Kronstadt Uprising of 1921.[15] 192.30.202.29 ( talk) 20:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite surprised by the absence of a Criticism section. Trotskyism is nearly treated as something everybody praises. Why isn't there even the beginning of a criticism ? Who could add them? -- 217.128.229.101 ( talk) 23:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
We could start by stating that they have not conducted any armed struggle for the past half a century. 203.196.190.162 ( talk) 18:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Could you please elaborate and add this to the "Trotskyist Movements" section ? 203.196.190.162 ( talk) 07:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Degenerated workers' state#Merge Discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by QFlux ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
It is an article of faith among Trotskyists that Stalin was the first to put forward the idea of 'Socialism in one country'. This is constantly asserted all over Wikipedia. When one tries to show that this is untrue, the evidence is suppressed. Lenin's 1915 article 'The United States of Europe Slogan', for example, said, “Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. Hence the victory of socialism is possible first in several or even in one capitalist country taken separately. The victorious proletariat of that country, having expropriated the capitalists and organised its own socialist production, would stand up against the rest of the world, the capitalist world.” Stevenjp ( talk) 14:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Most wikipedia articles start with a basic definition. This one starts out with an outline. Then like everything else in communism "The first fourth of the ten year period of the five year plan...blah blah blah." My understanding of the average user that would come to this page is this: One sees the word in print, looks it up and goes back to what one was reading. I would like to find out what it is. I don't want to read 10 pages on the history of something that I have no idea what it is. I'm such a scatterbrain that if the definition is remotely interesting I would probably read it anyway though. I was looking up Albert Camus. He was denounced by his friends as a "Trotskyite". I will have to look elsewhere to find out what it is. How about a 2 sentence definition at the top of the page.
Ahem. Came here trying to find out what type of communist might be a trotskyite. I still have no idea, because there are way to many loooong paragraphs and no concise definition at the start. "follower of trotsky's ideas" doesn't cut it- that tell me nothing.:-)
Piyrwq
00:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
The answer to your request for a definition is that Trotskyism is whatever someone wants it to be, since Trotsky is dead and is unlikely to argue the case. To judge from the contributions to this article, the political idea of Troskyism cannot be abstracted sufficiently from the man himself. Perhaps this article should be moved to a more relevant place, like "History's Political Dustbin". RIP, Leon! -- ChiJoker
"the average user that would come to this page is this: One sees the word in print, looks it up and goes back to what one was reading. I would like to find out what it is. I don't want to read 10 pages on the history of something that I have no idea what it is." - This describes exactly what happened to me just now. Can someone qualified please provide a clear, concise definition? It would be greatly appreciated. CanadianMist 20:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I now have a three sentence opening for those who won't read more:-
“ | Trotskyism is a trend of
Marxist thought and action associated with
Leon Trotsky, who with
Vladimir Lenin led the
Russian Revolution of 1917. One of Trotskyism's defining characteristics is its critique of the leadership of the Soviet Union. With various exceptions Trotskyists tend to criticse what they call the growth of a bureaucracy in the Soviet Union, which took power as a reflection of the backwardness and isolation of the country and as part of the process of the degeneration of the Russian revolution.
Whilst Stalin’s ‘theory’ of socialism in one country argued that it was possible to build socialism in Russia in isolation from the rest of the world, Trotskyists argue that this negated the most basic ideas of Marxism. Trotskyists claim to defend the basic ideas of Marxism and of Lenin. Whilst Communists praised the Soviet Union, Trotskyists claimed that the 1917 Russian revolution "degenerated" due to the economic backwardness of the country, and its isolation due to the failure of revolution to spread to the advanced capitalist countries. Trotskyists championed the idea of international revolution. (See section: Trotsky, the Russian Revolution, and Stalin) The term 'Trotskyism' was used as a term of abuse by opponents of Trotsky in 1924, particularly in contrast to the ideas of Joseph Stalin, who had developed the 'theory' of " Socialism in one country". Trotskyists tend to defend the theory of Permanent Revolution. |
” |
i see no other reference to it than right in the begining and it claims to be cheifly british and canadian. i question the people who may use this word and how they would use it with out anyother claims being laid to its use or origin.-- i am a fan of any and all contributers to wikipedia, espically the ones devoting time to categories!!--Dieselweasel ( talk) 21:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if examples count as citations, but I came across this a bit ago.
They's definitely Brits dere! :-) Shenme ( talk) 11:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Trot n. Inf. a follower of Trotsky; Trotskyite.
I was having a quick scan through this section and notice a glaring mistake. 'Despite the fact that most, like Stalin, saw Trotsky's role in the October 1917 Russian revolution as central...' Rather than dispute the arbitory use of like most, there is solid evidence that Stalin did not see Trotsky's role in the October Revolution as central. The proof of this is in Stalin's 1924 speach Trotskyism or Leninism?. Stalin's accusses Trotsky of creating this myth along with several others.
Also the The 'legend of Trotskyism' is also borderline of incorrect. The first bloc was Zinoviev, Kamenev and Stalin, it was Zinoviev in particular that waged war against Trotskyism,during this period Stalin was very moderate in his attacks of Trotsky, it was not until the issue of perminate revolution and socialism in one country did Bukharin and Stalin come together, although this mentioned, the lack of information between Lenin's death and 1926 leaves a large gap in why and how Trotskyism was an issue. Bukharin was not the singlar figure against Trotsky in deciding which way the Soviet Union would proceed. Zinoviev once again played a prominate role in this arguement and the ideal of Socialism in One Country is Stalin's
Continually quoting Trotsky's later works in perpetuating the myth that Trotsky's view was the correct one. Nothing in Bolshevk or Soviet History is as simple as this. The likes of Sarah Davies, James Harris and Adam Ulam have re-examined both old and more recent archives and have established that the view of those such as Trotsky, Conquest and Service are starting from a particular premise that has no guarantee of being correct. Soviet History no matter which figure is viewed is largely based on assumption and hearsay, especially when dealing with anything Trotsky had to say on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kytekay ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a great difference between the idea that the revolution might succeed first in one advanced capitalist nation (eg, Germany) and stabilize there for a while before it spread to others (eg UK), which is what Lenin was talking about, and the idea that it might succeed in one non-industrialized nation (eg Russia) first and stabilize there, before spreading to the advanced capitalist nations, which was what Stalin was saying. DGG ( talk) 20:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
We have a little flurry of reverting. Let's talk. I think there's a problem with the term Stalinism. It's POV, since none of the people Trotsky disagreed with called themselves a Stalinist. They would call themselves Marxist-Leninist, which is the accepted term for Moscow/Beijing communism. I suggest we use M-L as a term, rather than Stalinist. Soman had wisely added in a form of words like ', although Trotsky's ideas also stemmed from Marx and Lenin,'. That also beens helpful to me. -- Duncan 08:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
pretty integral part of trotsky's ideology, entire page fails to even make a reference. Inclusion would certainly offer an appropriate balance to the pro socialist dribble that covers the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.222.121 ( talk) 10:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been impressed by the work done above gathering together what are the key defining points of 'Trotskyism' that differentiate it from other theoretical currents in marxism. The one major point that appears to be missing is the use of a 'Transitional Programme', derived from Trotsky's work 'The Death Agony of Capitalism and the Tasks of The Fourth International' (1938)This is an approach where Trotskyists put forward 'transitional demands' that act as a 'bridge' between the minimal programme of reformists, and the maximal programme of the socialist transformation of society; demands that help to alleviate the basic problems that the working class face but also point in the direction of fundamentally changing society through the working class taking over, replacing capitalism with a democratically planned economy.
These demands, transitional demands as Trotsky refers to them, act as a bridge between answering the immediate problems of working people and the socialist transformation of society, the ultimate solution to all the separate issues.
I can see some potential for editorial conflict here, as different strands of Trotskyism attach different levels of importance to the Transitional programme, and have different understandings of what constitutes a 'transitional demand', but I don't think an article on Trotskyism can be complete without some treatment of the Transitional Programme. River sider ( talk) 10:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I've removed a paragraph - intending at first to move it - as I found it was a distortion of Lenin's remarks.
The section removed reads:
Importantly, Trotsky was also the early paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army. Due to their already-existing political differences, this affected Trotsky's relationship with Joseph Stalin, who was leader of the underground wing of the Bolsheviks at that time, and the two clashed on several occasions during the revolutionary phase. Also, Lenin had numerous rather biting criticisms of Trotsky's ideas and intra-Party political habits even before the Revolution. In a 1914 article titled “Disruption of Unity”, Lenin struck at Trotsky's factionalist tendencies and stated, "Under cover of ‘non-factionalism’ Trotsky...lacks definite principles and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia. ...All that glitters is not gold. There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless." [1]
There are many problems with this edit, which seems to be a bit of cut and paste from anti-Trotskyist articles. (For instance, Stalin was not leader of the underground "at that time" that Trotsky was leader of the red army!)
Lenin actually writes:
"Under cover of “non-factionalism” Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles, and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia." http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/may/x01.htm
Now clearly it is the "group abroad" which "lacks definite principles" while the edit makes Lenin says Trotsky lacks principles, etc.
I consequently felt that the para following was also too POV to be justified where it was placed, as well as lacking citations. Andysoh ( talk) 21:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
References
arent the Scottish socialist party marketed as an alternative to the majority of Trotskyist socialist party's in the uk ? and couldnt it be argue that they and the SWP the main troyskyist party in the uk do not always get on, can I see a reference for them being included in the European section ? 89.241.192.58 ( talk) 20:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Any good reason for having two separate sections about the Theory of Permanent Revolution? Except for the use of caps, they're even called the same:
The most logical solutions would be to merge them, or rename one them (making the difference between the two subsections more obvious). 62.107.217.223 ( talk) 04:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi!
Please look at Vietnamese Trotskyism, which is of interest because of (1) Vietnam seems to have been the only country in the world where Trotskyists had a mass following (if one discounts the Minneapolis Teamsters ...) and (2) the life expectancy of Trotskyist leaders dropped dramatically in 1945.
Apart from these facts, my knowledge and interest are exhausted.
Now, for you real Trotskyists, please do not come to my articles and start selling newspapers and asking 40-minute questions whether the USSR be a degenerated workers' state, etc.! ;)
Sincerely, Kiefer. Wolfowitz 12:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
In first place, Im argentinian, and I dont have such a firm grasp of english. so I wont be editing the article, since Im pretty sure it wouldnt meet WP standards; thats why Im asking for it here. (As you may notice, Im also a bunch of numbers, since I have no username... Sorry about that :P )
I think the article should reflect the 2011 elections in Argentina, where a coalition of trostyte parties (the "Frente de Izquierda y de los Trabajadores", wich means "Workers and Left-Wing Coalition", a coalition of the Partido Obrero, the Partido de los Trabajadores socialistas and Izquierda Socialista) got almost 500.000 votes on the presidential election (source: http://www.elecciones2011.gob.ar/paginas/paginas/dat99/DPR99999A.htm ), and some more on the legislative one (and some of its candidates were elected, like Alejandro Lopez or Liliana Olivero). I think it shold be reflected.
Also, it should be noted that trotskysm is playing a somewhat significant role in argentine politics, like in the Kraft strike (and the recent elections of the Food Industry Union, where the far left opposition got 40% of the votes, with the totskytes being its main candidates), the takeover of the Zanon factory by its workers, the subway and trains strikes and unions, the students unions, and many, many more.
May some editor fix this?
Some sources for my statements:
http://pts.org.ar/spip.php?article20521
http://www.ambito.com/diario/noticia.asp?id=606585
http://www.herramienta.com.ar/revista-herramienta-n-42/expropiar-zanon
http://www.pts.org.ar/spip.php?article19936
Thanks!
201.235.92.101 (
talk)
01:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove Template:Conformity from this article. Its presence is a clear violation of wikipedia's NPOV policy. 99.224.66.13 ( talk) 02:06, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template.
Callanecc (
talk •
contribs •
logs)
04:44, 12 September 2012 (UTC)About the section: "In Portugal's September 2009 parliamentary election, the Left Bloc won 558.062 votes, which translated into 9,82% of the expressed votes and the election of 16 (out of 230) deputies to the national parliament.[53] Although founded by several leftist tendencies, it still expresses much of the Trotskyist thought upheld and developed by its current leader, Francisco Louçã." Francisco Louçã is no longer the leader of the Left Bloc, the position is now held by Catarina Martins and João Semedo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.25.178 ( talk) 14:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Edited this from Lead, as it does not express Trotsky's opposition to ideas of Lenin, as it was said to do. It expresses Lenin's opposition to Trotsky, so should be in Lenin's article, to explain his thoughts: <<In his 1914 article “Disruption of Unity”, Lenin wrote, "Under cover of ‘non-factionalism’ Trotsky is championing the interests of a group abroad which particularly lacks definite principles and has no basis in the working-class movement in Russia. All that glitters is not gold. There is much glitter and sound in Trotsky’s phrases, but they are meaningless." [1]>> Parkwells ( talk) 14:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
References
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The second paragraph of the page on Trotskyism is currently:
V. I. Lenin and Trotsky were close both ideologically and personally during the Russian Revolution of 1917,[1] However Lenin later denounced Trotsky as a traitor and called him "Judas Trotsky"[2]. Trotsky was the paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army in the direct aftermath of the Revolutionary period.
The source, however, was written by Lenin in 1911 and only published in Pravda in 1932. Lenin and Trotsky had clashed many times before 1917, but worked well together after that. This memo was most likely published by the Stalinist bureaucracy as a way to discredit Trotsky after the fact.
Please change the paragraph to something along the lines of:
V.I. Lenin and Trotsky were close both ideologically and personally during and after the Russian Revolution of 1917, despite having had several heated disagreements in the past. Trotsky was the paramount leader of the Soviet Red Army in the direct aftermath of the Revolutionary period.
Thank you.
Dcm678 ( talk) 19:26, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi @ Aintiainti,
I do not agree that Stalinism and Marxism–Leninism refer to the same ideology. After all, there are two distinct articles on the two subjects. The section Stalinism#Relationship to Leninism makes it clear that the two are related, but not the same. I suggest changing the phrasing from "Trotskyists are critical of Stalinism (also called Marxism-Leninism)" to "Trotskyists are critical of Marxism-Leninism and Stalinism". What do you think? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 09:38, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi,
I don't think that your phrasing would be useful, because to someone who does not understand that Marxists-Leninists are their own political grouping, they may be led to believe that Trotsky opposed Marx and Lenin, and not simply Stalin. I think there should be something written that says that Marxist-Leninists subscribe heavily to Stalinism.
Aintiainti (
talk)
11:54, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
First time post to wikipedia--which is great, I love it--but this article is pretty bad so I had to respond. First of all Trotskyists would never refer to themselves as "Trotskyites"--a word which this article seems to use interchangeably. "Trotskyite" is a slur a Stalinist would use, often inaccurately, to describe an enemy; "Trotskyist" is a political ideology many people claim. Calling Trotskyists "Trotskyites" is like calling communists "commies" or calling the Democratic Party "the Democrat Party"--it's an insult that is used to amuse or enrage, depending on the context.
Secondly I laughed to see the Socialist Workers Party (US) listed with the Socialist Workers Party (Britain) as a prime example of Trotskyism. First of all these two organizations come from very different branches of Trotskyism. Second, the SWP (US) was the main Trotskyist organization in the US up until (arguably) the early 80s, when it imploded and split into several competing tendencies. What is left of the SWP is arguably not Trotskyist; at the very least it represents a non-orthodox form of Trotskyism that more or less rejects Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution. The most emblematic representatives of Trotskyism in the US are the International Socialist Organization (a relatively large, fairly white, group based mainly around college campuses and recent ex-students which positions itself slightly to the left of reformism; the ISO differs from orthodox Trotskyism in that it considers the former Soviet Union and other "communist" countries as "state capitalist" rather than "deformed or degenerated workers' states") and the Spartacist League (a relatively medium-small group which prides itself on doctrinal purity, fights with other Trotskyists, and tries to take over meetings).
I'm a little intimidated of trying to edit the article myself, but I would be happy to try in conjunction with some other people. What's there now isn't a very full picture and is inaccurate in some respects.
Kod65red 03:11, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've rewriten the first sentence of the last para which contained a reference to a 'communist state'. While one might get away with using such an expression in everyday life it won't do in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. For the simple fact that the very idea of a communist state is a contradiction in terms. Communism is the abscence of a state and of classes in Marxian theory. Lenin went so far as to describe a workers' state as a bourgeois state minus the bourgeoisie. This was in order to indicate that the workers' state was the beginning of the transition to communism and a society that was truly egalitarian and therefore stateless. How anyone can write such guff is beyond me.
Jock Haston
I agree with this poster. This article says a great deal about nothing. It doesn't in any way explain the key tenets of Trotskyism and how they relate to other offshoots of communism. It is confusing and poorly written. Someone should go through this article and completely rewrite it, this time focusing on what Trotskyism is and how it compares to other kinds of socialism.
This is my opinion as a reader of this article. 128.2.237.8 19:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)Anonymous
I removed the following paragraph from the International Revolution section as it seemed extremely unclear and in serious need of additional sources:
This was the position, contrary to that of classical Marxism which by that time had been further illuminated by active life, shared by Trotsky and Lenin and the Bolsheviks until 1924 when Joseph Stalin, who along with Kamenev in February 1917 had taken the Menshevik position of first the bourgeois revolution, only to be confronted by Lenin and his famous April Theses on Lenin's return to Russia after the death of Lenin and seeking to consolidate his growing bureaucratic control of the Bolshevik Party began to put forward the slogan of "socialism in one country".
Lacannot ( talk) 19:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
It might be interesting to add what Trotskyists thought about the 1959 Cuban Revolution, and what the Cuban revolutionaries under Fidel Castro thought about Trotskyists. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 00:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
The article states the following without a source.
Nadezhda Krupskaya, Lenin's wife, was a Trotskyist after the death of Lenin.
The political actions of Krupskaya following Lenin's death are rather complicated, and this needs to be either elaborated upon, cited, or removed entirely. DeVos Max ( talk) 10:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to delete stuff from this talkpage with the justification of "not a forum" when one asks that the article should clarify about the symbolism of trotskyism? -- 2003:EF:1706:3268:DC05:37CC:C96A:2FCB ( talk) 08:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Given what the article itself establishes—that Trotsky's heirs and epigones are notoriously argumentative—it is surely impossible to define this 'ism' in a way which appears to everyone as an NPOV. One suggestion, though: for some people involved or associated with that movement, it is less a specific theory of Leon Trotsky's and more a tradition of political opposition to Stalinism that they identify with. Focusing on the tradition, not the theory, might make more sense. Adhib 08:18, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The section below seems to be clearly taking a political stance:
The International Socialist Organization supported Ralph Nader, an anti-socialist candidate in both the 2000 and 2004 elections. Britain's SWP supported George Galloway, an establishment Labor politician, in his campaign under the Respect Coalition, which included Islamist groups. Like Nader's campaign was meant to influence the Democrats, the Respect Coalition means to push the discredited Labor Party to the left rather than replace it with a party truly representing the working class. Both Nader and Galloway accept money from right-wing groups to help their campaign, Nader from Republicans and Galloway from Arab nationalist governments.
Calling Orwell a socialist writer is probably a stretch, too
Each group went through evolutions. Communist support to the British LP goes back to 1919, the Trotskyists called for a vote for Labour in the 1930s and onward, off and on, etc. You contribution here is not historical but really pollemical.
--David Walters
Encyclopedia of Trotskyism On Line
I wonder if this article needs a substantial reorganization. I get the impression that at each phase, someone has written another few sentences and then someone of the opposite viewpoint has edited them. So we have a positive presentation of Trotskyism and critiques of Trotskyism meshed together, and every line reads differently.
My proposal is that we reorganize the article more systematically, with a new section entitled "Critiques of Trotskyism" or something like that. Then the pejoratives and so forth could be organized under that header, and it might be easier to read. -- Kod65red 23:21, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Till then, I've fixed the final sentence that referred to "communist states".-- Che y Marijuana 01:13, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Could the person who has slapped a neutrality dispute label on this article have the decency to explain this action?
As it stands the article is messy and shows all too clearly the signs of many hands. Some of whom lack any real degree of knowledge about the topic. But there is very little in the article that goes beyond the simple reporting of what Trotskyism is. Albeit it does that none too well but thats another matter.
The only real stuff that crosses the line re NPOV concerns Stalin and that will be gone very soon.
Jock Haston
While I can't take credit for the correct placement of a neutrality label here, I found that an easy request. "Trotskyists are mostly ignored by historians and politicians except when they faced police repression and slander. It is unusual for them to get a fair hearing of their views." Is the author stating a fact, editorializing, or crazed with Troskyitis? -- ChiJoker
Hi, new to wikipedia myself, just thought I could present an example of the above point.
In Great Britain, the Guardian, a newspaper generally seen as left-leaning, recently reported how PM Tony Blair had compared the actions of right-wing political Islam to those of Militant (the former Marxist tendency within the Labour Party, the members of whom formed the Socialist Party upon their expulsion from Labour), without pointing out that the SP are "opposed to all acts of state and individual terrorism" ('state terrorism' refers to warfare conducted by any government).
Perhaps the above instance could be quoted so as to provide a context for the passage in question? -- Lindsay
I'm new to Wikipedia and the farthest thing from an expert on Trotskyism, but I've studied the history and the discussion threads about this article, and I don't understand why it's still such a grammatical, syntactical and factual nightmare.
There simply must be an introductory paragraph that gives an otherwise uniformed reader some idea of what Trotskyism actually "is". Further explanations of vastly different perspectives on Troskyism, as well as how its views changed over time, are good and necessary—but only AFTER some sort of factual and dispassionate defining of the main idea.
Otherwise, this is all just a dog chasing its tail. And it's terrible for Wikipedia's credibility.-- BrentDanzig 28 June 2005 15:05 (UTC)
Since the above was written a large parrt of the article has been substantially rewritten and greatly expanded. Theres more to follow including reference, further reading and so forth. In a sense there can be no definition as to what trotskyism was because it was not and is not a "thing in itself". Trotskyism began as a defence of the Marxist Leninism of the Comintern. It continued as an evolving set of ideas and political tactics as it was forced to respond to events. For Trotskyists it was and is simply the Marxism of today nothing more noting less. I'll add an introd=uctory note making this point, in an NPOV fashion, asap. Probably after I've completed the final section.
Anyhow I hope the grammatical problems and so forth are less now than was the case. but feel free to correct my spelling and so forth. heck you are free to do so what am i saying! Silly me hum?
Now a question would it be a good idea to make the new section - Trotskyism in Literature - an entry in its own right?
Jock Haston
The caption of the picture of the Brazilian poster calls it "propaganda". I propose to change this to "advertisement" for the following reasons:
Oh, and by the way, it currently says "progapanda" which is a typo as well.