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Have you ever wondered about the Trojan Horse and whether it was true? I have. I believe in the story because there's a lot of proof.
such as? Adam 01:34, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It seems as if the article places Diomedes' fight with Ares and Aphrodite after Hector's death and outside of the Iliad. It was in the version of the Iliad I read, and took place before Hector's death. 209.11.161.235 20:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a very nice, detailed article with a lot of research. I noticed that the page article to tell the entire story of the war but implies that it is contained entirely in the Iliad. Everything after Hector's funeral comes from other sources, such as the Odyssey, as well as much later Greek poets and even Virgil. I was wondering if it would be best to mention that, somehow, since there is no classical source that tells the entire "story" and not all accounts agree in the details. -- Decumanus 18:32, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I read a hypothesis that the Trojan Horse was actually a ship (with horse decorations?) with warriors passing the Dardanelles as if it were merchant. -- Error 00:43, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Nice article... But the participants section seems to repeat alot of information. Participants on the trojan side, participants on the greek side, unknown side, participant/killer should all be combined into a single table - it should make things much easier. Anyone wanna do it?-- Fangz 01:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Trojan Horse being a peace offering may be incorrect. Other sources say it was a pretend gift from the gods.
The Trojan Horse being a peace offering may be incorrect. Other sources say it was a pretend gift from the gods.
can someone tell me the EXACT dates of the Trojan War. I need them for my Latin Final...
Another says that it was a battering ram to big for the gates of Ilium, so it was dressed up like a horse. Later, according to the source, the Acheans returned and smashed open the gates while the Dardanians and their allies where in a drunken stupor.
I find it confusing that some people in the "Participants" entry are simply related to those who fought in the war, as opposed to people who directly fought in the war. Example Andromache is the wife of Hector who fought in the war, not a fighter in the war. So if participating is fighting. Some people in those entries didnt participate in the war.
When Trojan war is waged?
Before of after the fall of Hittite Empire?
-- IonnKorr 14:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Dido actually existed in a very different time from Aeneas. They would have never been able to meet, but the article sounds like they actually did, and Vergil just wrote about it. Can someone correct this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.207.36.226 ( talk • contribs) .
I removed this from the introduction:
This doesn't belong in the introductory paragraph, but if a source can be provided for this information it might belong in some other part of this article, or in Odysseus. Sounds fairly fishy to me, though; a quick web search turns up almost nothing on this alleged tomb. --Akhilleus ( talk) 23:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the "participants" section really need to be part of this article? Might it be better to spin it out into a separate list article, called List of Trojan War participants or List of participants in the Trojan War? It doesn't seem vital to an encyclopedic summary of the war to me. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the Military Conflict infobox adds much value to this article. The Trojan War we talk about is primarily a mythological/literary event, not a historical/military one. We don't know when the Trojan War happened (if it actually did), and we don't know who its historical combatants and commanders actually were. The infobox is also inaccurate, or at least incomplete: the Trojans had allies, the "Greeks" include many important and independent political units, and some of the "commanders" aren't really commanders (Priam?). The word "commanders" is a bit anachronistic, also--it implies a more developed military structure than one finds in the Iliad. Furthermore, the infobox clutters an already crowded intro that has the Greek mythology infobox there as well.
The information that's valuable in the infobox is mostly in the intro to the article, anyway. I'd like to delete the infobox, unless anyone feels strongly that it should remain. (I forgot to sign this originally, so now I'm adding a signature.) --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
No one's responded to my comment, so for the reasons above, I'm removing the infobox. If anyone objects, could we please discuss it here? --Akhilleus ( talk) 23:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree on the deletion of the infobox. The Trojan was probably a true event and like all wars it should have its infobox. The standard template for all wars in the WikiMilitary project includes one. Of course the infobox does not add anything knew, it shouldn't. It should just summarize what happened Ikokki 09:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The military conflict infobox is included in completely fictional battles in Wikipedia as Battle of the Pelennor Field, Battle of Deep Space Nine or better yet War of the Ring. It is a prequisit for Feature Article status, which we should wish to have. Check the pages out if you wish. Since it belongs to purely fictional conflicts, why should it not belong to semi-historical? Since battleboxes belong to real and fictional Wars I will return it. But since I have no intention of starting an edit war, someone please contact an administrator to write down in this space official Wiki policy Ikokki 19:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The focus know might be on the mythology of the Trojan War but this is not necessarily going to be the focus of this article in the future. The Trojan War tales were based on a historical event, those supporting the Trojan War as a completely fictional event today are the minority. The emphasis today, at least among scholars in Greece, is on the War and its outcome on the society, not how it came about. Ever since the 6th century BC there is the story going about that Helen never went to Troy, but it was only her ghost there. Ever since Eurepedes myths get completely changed at the whim of the playwright. There are three poems written by Greek poets in the Greco-Roman era (unfortunately I do not remember their names) that have survived claiming that there was no Apple of Discord, no Judgement of Paris, No Rape of Helen. She went to Troy unmarried by her own will, the Acheans went there to kidnapp her as a pretext, Palamedes led the Acheans, the intention of the campaign was to remove the Carians from the islands of the North Aegean, Troy never fell.
It is not policy of the Classical History task force alone to have an infobox, it is WikiMilitary Project policy to have one. This was does belong to Classical History since it belongs to a classical civilisation, Ancient Greece. There other wars in which historical detail is even more thin, the Lelantine War or the Andriskos Revolution for example, but this does not mean that these wars do not deserve infoboxes (and they will get them some time). I have put a question at Wiki Help Humanities, at some point we will get an answer but since even in fictional wars there are infoboxes, there should be in semi-fictional wars too.
Standardisation, despite its failings, is very important in all matters of human affairs since it is the basis of formulation of laws. A major breakthrough took place in Psychiatry some 20 years ago with the publication of DSM-III that standardised diagnostic criteria. Infoboxes should be in all battles because they casual viewers to understand in 10 seconds what happened. It is the outcome of the war that is always more important than what led to it. Ikokki 21:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Before people go for each others' throats too much (too late, I know), a few remarks:
Hope that clarifies a few things! Kirill Lokshin 00:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The section "The Trojan Horse" suggests that we have the story of the Trojan horse from Homer, which is not true. Did Homer even ever mention the Trojan horse? 23:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Have you ever wondered about the Trojan Horse and whether it was true? I have. I believe in the story because there's a lot of proof.
such as? Adam 01:34, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It seems as if the article places Diomedes' fight with Ares and Aphrodite after Hector's death and outside of the Iliad. It was in the version of the Iliad I read, and took place before Hector's death. 209.11.161.235 20:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a very nice, detailed article with a lot of research. I noticed that the page article to tell the entire story of the war but implies that it is contained entirely in the Iliad. Everything after Hector's funeral comes from other sources, such as the Odyssey, as well as much later Greek poets and even Virgil. I was wondering if it would be best to mention that, somehow, since there is no classical source that tells the entire "story" and not all accounts agree in the details. -- Decumanus 18:32, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I read a hypothesis that the Trojan Horse was actually a ship (with horse decorations?) with warriors passing the Dardanelles as if it were merchant. -- Error 00:43, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Nice article... But the participants section seems to repeat alot of information. Participants on the trojan side, participants on the greek side, unknown side, participant/killer should all be combined into a single table - it should make things much easier. Anyone wanna do it?-- Fangz 01:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The Trojan Horse being a peace offering may be incorrect. Other sources say it was a pretend gift from the gods.
The Trojan Horse being a peace offering may be incorrect. Other sources say it was a pretend gift from the gods.
can someone tell me the EXACT dates of the Trojan War. I need them for my Latin Final...
Another says that it was a battering ram to big for the gates of Ilium, so it was dressed up like a horse. Later, according to the source, the Acheans returned and smashed open the gates while the Dardanians and their allies where in a drunken stupor.
I find it confusing that some people in the "Participants" entry are simply related to those who fought in the war, as opposed to people who directly fought in the war. Example Andromache is the wife of Hector who fought in the war, not a fighter in the war. So if participating is fighting. Some people in those entries didnt participate in the war.
When Trojan war is waged?
Before of after the fall of Hittite Empire?
-- IonnKorr 14:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Dido actually existed in a very different time from Aeneas. They would have never been able to meet, but the article sounds like they actually did, and Vergil just wrote about it. Can someone correct this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.207.36.226 ( talk • contribs) .
I removed this from the introduction:
This doesn't belong in the introductory paragraph, but if a source can be provided for this information it might belong in some other part of this article, or in Odysseus. Sounds fairly fishy to me, though; a quick web search turns up almost nothing on this alleged tomb. --Akhilleus ( talk) 23:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Does the "participants" section really need to be part of this article? Might it be better to spin it out into a separate list article, called List of Trojan War participants or List of participants in the Trojan War? It doesn't seem vital to an encyclopedic summary of the war to me. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the Military Conflict infobox adds much value to this article. The Trojan War we talk about is primarily a mythological/literary event, not a historical/military one. We don't know when the Trojan War happened (if it actually did), and we don't know who its historical combatants and commanders actually were. The infobox is also inaccurate, or at least incomplete: the Trojans had allies, the "Greeks" include many important and independent political units, and some of the "commanders" aren't really commanders (Priam?). The word "commanders" is a bit anachronistic, also--it implies a more developed military structure than one finds in the Iliad. Furthermore, the infobox clutters an already crowded intro that has the Greek mythology infobox there as well.
The information that's valuable in the infobox is mostly in the intro to the article, anyway. I'd like to delete the infobox, unless anyone feels strongly that it should remain. (I forgot to sign this originally, so now I'm adding a signature.) --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
No one's responded to my comment, so for the reasons above, I'm removing the infobox. If anyone objects, could we please discuss it here? --Akhilleus ( talk) 23:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree on the deletion of the infobox. The Trojan was probably a true event and like all wars it should have its infobox. The standard template for all wars in the WikiMilitary project includes one. Of course the infobox does not add anything knew, it shouldn't. It should just summarize what happened Ikokki 09:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The military conflict infobox is included in completely fictional battles in Wikipedia as Battle of the Pelennor Field, Battle of Deep Space Nine or better yet War of the Ring. It is a prequisit for Feature Article status, which we should wish to have. Check the pages out if you wish. Since it belongs to purely fictional conflicts, why should it not belong to semi-historical? Since battleboxes belong to real and fictional Wars I will return it. But since I have no intention of starting an edit war, someone please contact an administrator to write down in this space official Wiki policy Ikokki 19:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The focus know might be on the mythology of the Trojan War but this is not necessarily going to be the focus of this article in the future. The Trojan War tales were based on a historical event, those supporting the Trojan War as a completely fictional event today are the minority. The emphasis today, at least among scholars in Greece, is on the War and its outcome on the society, not how it came about. Ever since the 6th century BC there is the story going about that Helen never went to Troy, but it was only her ghost there. Ever since Eurepedes myths get completely changed at the whim of the playwright. There are three poems written by Greek poets in the Greco-Roman era (unfortunately I do not remember their names) that have survived claiming that there was no Apple of Discord, no Judgement of Paris, No Rape of Helen. She went to Troy unmarried by her own will, the Acheans went there to kidnapp her as a pretext, Palamedes led the Acheans, the intention of the campaign was to remove the Carians from the islands of the North Aegean, Troy never fell.
It is not policy of the Classical History task force alone to have an infobox, it is WikiMilitary Project policy to have one. This was does belong to Classical History since it belongs to a classical civilisation, Ancient Greece. There other wars in which historical detail is even more thin, the Lelantine War or the Andriskos Revolution for example, but this does not mean that these wars do not deserve infoboxes (and they will get them some time). I have put a question at Wiki Help Humanities, at some point we will get an answer but since even in fictional wars there are infoboxes, there should be in semi-fictional wars too.
Standardisation, despite its failings, is very important in all matters of human affairs since it is the basis of formulation of laws. A major breakthrough took place in Psychiatry some 20 years ago with the publication of DSM-III that standardised diagnostic criteria. Infoboxes should be in all battles because they casual viewers to understand in 10 seconds what happened. It is the outcome of the war that is always more important than what led to it. Ikokki 21:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Before people go for each others' throats too much (too late, I know), a few remarks:
Hope that clarifies a few things! Kirill Lokshin 00:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The section "The Trojan Horse" suggests that we have the story of the Trojan horse from Homer, which is not true. Did Homer even ever mention the Trojan horse? 23:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)