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A section of the article (see below) seems to be confusing Thaye Dorje with Urgyen Trinley Dorje. Surely it is the latter who had fleed Tibet given that Thaye Dorje is recognised/supported by the Chinese Government. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?
"In March 1994, Thaye Dorje and his family escaped from Tibet to Nepal and then to India, where Shamar Rinpoche formally recognized him as the 17th Karmapa. In 1994 Thaye Dorje was enthroned by the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa as the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa at the Karmapa International Buddhist Institute in New Dehli, India."
-- Ant108 19:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC) - The article is accurate. Thaye Dorje escaped from Chinese-occupied Tibet in 1994. Urgyen Trinley Dorje did not leave Tibet until January 2000, although the exact timing and the circumstances around his alleged escape are subject to debate. Furthermore, Thaye Dorje is not recognised by the Communist Chinese government - it is Urgyen Trinley Dorje who has their blessing. Thaye Dorje was recognised by Sharmar Rinpoche, the second highest teacher in the Karma Kagyu lineage, and was never under the control of the Communist government.
This doesn't really explain that the majority of Karma Kagyu support the other one. I appreciate we need a neutral source for that. Secretlondon ( talk) 06:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
How do you know that the majority of Karma Kagyu support the other one? Have you done a worldwide Kagyu poll? The identification of past Karmapas was never subject to popular vote, so I'm not really sure the relevance of this either way! -- Changchub ( talk) 12:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Geoffrey Samuel is correct about the majority of monasteries and lamas supporting Ogyen Trinley rather than Thaye Dorje. My point was that the Karma Kagyu branch of Tibetan Buddhism is now by far the largest of the four branches in terms of practitioners (not just monks, nuns, lamas, etc...) and the statement "the majority of Karma Kagyu support [Ogyent Trinley]" is vague, and quite probably inaccurate given the huge number of Diamond Way centers all through Europe and Russia that support TD. Again... I must reiterate that in the past the recognition of tulkus was not a matter of popular vote either amongst monks and lamas, or practitioners of the various lineages. Controversies were small, secret and limited to the highest lamas of a lineage and were usually resolved much more quickly than this one has been. -- Changchub ( talk) 20:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
This was added by an anon user
One problem is that while this seems on the whole fairly likely, as this is a controversial topic it needs to be supported by reliable 3rd party references, for example not just from Diamond Way web sites and press releases. Billlion ( talk) 15:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I have removed "is recognized by many as the 17th Karmapa". The term "many" is too ambiguous. The majority of senior Kagyu masters do not recognise Trinley Thaye Dorje as the 17th Karmapa, and so I would say that it is misleading to claim "many". He is a claimant, but not one who has the majority.
I also removed "....from some of the finest Tibetan and Indian Buddhist scholars and masters alive" - this is a quite subjective and unsubstantiated view. Thrangu Rinpoche is commonly held to be the best Kagyu scholar currently alive, and is opposed Thaye Dorje's claim.
-- 121.214.45.54 ( talk) 03:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello. As far as I understood from yesterday's talk Karmapa prefers his name to be written as "Trinly". Can someone check it and rename the page? -- Almays ( talk) 15:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what you stance is on Tibetan independence, it is a FACT that ever since the 1950's the region known is Tibet is governed by the Chinese government, with the regional name of Tibet Autonomous Region, PRC. The individual of this article is born in that region. Hence, I have changed the link from the ethno-cultural article Tibet to the administrative region of TAR, PRC. Children of the dragon ( talk) 05:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Can I ask for some clarification regarding Trinley's father be added into the text? I've added some templates. I can piece it together from the information given in Jamgon Ju Mipham Gyatso but it is confusing, especially so given Ju Mipham's celebrated affirmation that he would not seek rebirth in Tibet. Rinpoche ( talk) 10:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
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I added a bit of history (10th and 15th Karmapa) as well as updated date and location of birth of the couple's son. Happy editing Badabara ( talk) 15:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Trinley Thaye Dorje article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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A section of the article (see below) seems to be confusing Thaye Dorje with Urgyen Trinley Dorje. Surely it is the latter who had fleed Tibet given that Thaye Dorje is recognised/supported by the Chinese Government. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?
"In March 1994, Thaye Dorje and his family escaped from Tibet to Nepal and then to India, where Shamar Rinpoche formally recognized him as the 17th Karmapa. In 1994 Thaye Dorje was enthroned by the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa as the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa at the Karmapa International Buddhist Institute in New Dehli, India."
-- Ant108 19:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC) - The article is accurate. Thaye Dorje escaped from Chinese-occupied Tibet in 1994. Urgyen Trinley Dorje did not leave Tibet until January 2000, although the exact timing and the circumstances around his alleged escape are subject to debate. Furthermore, Thaye Dorje is not recognised by the Communist Chinese government - it is Urgyen Trinley Dorje who has their blessing. Thaye Dorje was recognised by Sharmar Rinpoche, the second highest teacher in the Karma Kagyu lineage, and was never under the control of the Communist government.
This doesn't really explain that the majority of Karma Kagyu support the other one. I appreciate we need a neutral source for that. Secretlondon ( talk) 06:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
How do you know that the majority of Karma Kagyu support the other one? Have you done a worldwide Kagyu poll? The identification of past Karmapas was never subject to popular vote, so I'm not really sure the relevance of this either way! -- Changchub ( talk) 12:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Geoffrey Samuel is correct about the majority of monasteries and lamas supporting Ogyen Trinley rather than Thaye Dorje. My point was that the Karma Kagyu branch of Tibetan Buddhism is now by far the largest of the four branches in terms of practitioners (not just monks, nuns, lamas, etc...) and the statement "the majority of Karma Kagyu support [Ogyent Trinley]" is vague, and quite probably inaccurate given the huge number of Diamond Way centers all through Europe and Russia that support TD. Again... I must reiterate that in the past the recognition of tulkus was not a matter of popular vote either amongst monks and lamas, or practitioners of the various lineages. Controversies were small, secret and limited to the highest lamas of a lineage and were usually resolved much more quickly than this one has been. -- Changchub ( talk) 20:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
This was added by an anon user
One problem is that while this seems on the whole fairly likely, as this is a controversial topic it needs to be supported by reliable 3rd party references, for example not just from Diamond Way web sites and press releases. Billlion ( talk) 15:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I have removed "is recognized by many as the 17th Karmapa". The term "many" is too ambiguous. The majority of senior Kagyu masters do not recognise Trinley Thaye Dorje as the 17th Karmapa, and so I would say that it is misleading to claim "many". He is a claimant, but not one who has the majority.
I also removed "....from some of the finest Tibetan and Indian Buddhist scholars and masters alive" - this is a quite subjective and unsubstantiated view. Thrangu Rinpoche is commonly held to be the best Kagyu scholar currently alive, and is opposed Thaye Dorje's claim.
-- 121.214.45.54 ( talk) 03:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello. As far as I understood from yesterday's talk Karmapa prefers his name to be written as "Trinly". Can someone check it and rename the page? -- Almays ( talk) 15:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what you stance is on Tibetan independence, it is a FACT that ever since the 1950's the region known is Tibet is governed by the Chinese government, with the regional name of Tibet Autonomous Region, PRC. The individual of this article is born in that region. Hence, I have changed the link from the ethno-cultural article Tibet to the administrative region of TAR, PRC. Children of the dragon ( talk) 05:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Can I ask for some clarification regarding Trinley's father be added into the text? I've added some templates. I can piece it together from the information given in Jamgon Ju Mipham Gyatso but it is confusing, especially so given Ju Mipham's celebrated affirmation that he would not seek rebirth in Tibet. Rinpoche ( talk) 10:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Trinley Thaye Dorje. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
ftp://coombs.anu.edu.au/coombspapers/otherarchives/asian-studies-archives/tibetan-archives/tibet-recent-history/karmapa-17th-controversy-94.txtWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
I added a bit of history (10th and 15th Karmapa) as well as updated date and location of birth of the couple's son. Happy editing Badabara ( talk) 15:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)