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I actually have no problem with MerricMaker adding the basic paragraph which he did, but I do have great problems with presenting the "Jesus Seminar" as the consensus of mainstream scholarship, because it's not. Please rewrite the paragraph so it isn't so laudatory, and there will be no problem. AnonMoos 17:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to whoever edited the section mentioned, however, I removed the "liberal" label applied broadly to the Jesus Seminar. There are about a hundred people in it and some of them are hardly liberal at all if you read their works outside of the Seminar itself. To be frank, there is no such thing as "liberal" or "conservative" scholarship. There is only well-founded scholarship or poorly-constructed scholarship and liberals and conservatives contribute equally to both forms. On a lighter note, I know that the Jesus Seminar was just a distillation of quite a lot of archeological work, translation, and form criticism that was going on before Funk gathered the group. If someone is familiar with that research (dare we dream that someone from United Bible Socities is paying attention?) they might strengthen this segment of the article by actually addressing the various old Gospel fragments, the Dead Sea Confetti and the like. MerricMaker 06:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I tried to unify this section. Since this formula is uttered by the resurrected Jesus, and the so-called "historical Jesus" is portrayed as not having been resurrected, the scholars who take a purely historical view of Jesus conclude that Jesus didn't say it. Jonathan Tweet 15:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I can have sworn that the appropriate latin phrase was "In nominae pater et filius et spiritus sancti." Is the latin used in the article just the modern vulgar form? Because instead of "In the names of the father, the son, and the holy spirit," it comes across more as: "In the name of father(more or less), sons, and the holy spirit." I wish I understood why this is so. -me -- 01:18, 20 October 2007 24.46.166.57
I notice the Greek εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος is in the accusative after εἰς implying a direction; a more literal translation would be "into the name of the Father etc." The Latin, on the other hand, uses the ablative after in implying static location, like the English "in the name of the Father" etc. Would the Greek equivalent of the Latin, ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος (Greek ἐν + dative = Latin in + ablative), ever be used? — An gr 17:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
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The article should maybe mention the issue of Church authority for trinitarian baptisms. I think there is a historical Catholic practice of considering that all Protestant baptisms are de facto Catholic baptisms because they are trinitarian in character. This explains the development of the ecumenical movement and the absence of modern conversion efforts directed at Protestants. Hence, as it is shown in the 2007 document "Subsistit in" in Lumen Gentium about the ecclesial communities born out of the Reformation, the Catholic Church continues to behave as if it literally owns the souls of the vast majority of Protestants in the world. This issue also applies for the Eastern Orthodox, given that the Holy Office continues to assert that the Eastern Churches are mere local Churches subjected to the authority of the Roman protos. ADM ( talk) 08:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm no theologian, by i'm prety sure in anglican (CoE) services "Holy Ghost" is used, not "Holy Spirit". Shouldn't this be mentioned and explained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.11.178 ( talk) 20:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I won't insist on it, but the "ū" shows that it's 4th declension genitive singular, not 2nd declension nominative singular (similar to the "â" indicating 1st declension ablative singular)... -- AnonMoos ( talk) 12:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
@ AnonMoos, I'm curious what translation was used in the article, then. It looks exactly like the KJV, except that it mysteriously mixes "ye" and "Holy Spirit". I can see "Holy Ghost" being distracting, but this inconsistency (and lack of clarity of which translation is being used) is even more distracting, IMHO. Perhaps a definitive switch to NABRE might be appropriate? Crusadestudent ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
The grave accents in the Greek text have been mysteriously changed to acute. It would be much better to completely remove the grave accent marks, since they did not indicate any feature of ancient Greek pronunciation (they indicate that if the word were to occur in another context, then there would be a pitch accent, but in the actual context where the word is found, there is no pitch accent). AnonMoos ( talk) 21:23, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I actually have no problem with MerricMaker adding the basic paragraph which he did, but I do have great problems with presenting the "Jesus Seminar" as the consensus of mainstream scholarship, because it's not. Please rewrite the paragraph so it isn't so laudatory, and there will be no problem. AnonMoos 17:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to whoever edited the section mentioned, however, I removed the "liberal" label applied broadly to the Jesus Seminar. There are about a hundred people in it and some of them are hardly liberal at all if you read their works outside of the Seminar itself. To be frank, there is no such thing as "liberal" or "conservative" scholarship. There is only well-founded scholarship or poorly-constructed scholarship and liberals and conservatives contribute equally to both forms. On a lighter note, I know that the Jesus Seminar was just a distillation of quite a lot of archeological work, translation, and form criticism that was going on before Funk gathered the group. If someone is familiar with that research (dare we dream that someone from United Bible Socities is paying attention?) they might strengthen this segment of the article by actually addressing the various old Gospel fragments, the Dead Sea Confetti and the like. MerricMaker 06:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I tried to unify this section. Since this formula is uttered by the resurrected Jesus, and the so-called "historical Jesus" is portrayed as not having been resurrected, the scholars who take a purely historical view of Jesus conclude that Jesus didn't say it. Jonathan Tweet 15:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I can have sworn that the appropriate latin phrase was "In nominae pater et filius et spiritus sancti." Is the latin used in the article just the modern vulgar form? Because instead of "In the names of the father, the son, and the holy spirit," it comes across more as: "In the name of father(more or less), sons, and the holy spirit." I wish I understood why this is so. -me -- 01:18, 20 October 2007 24.46.166.57
I notice the Greek εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος is in the accusative after εἰς implying a direction; a more literal translation would be "into the name of the Father etc." The Latin, on the other hand, uses the ablative after in implying static location, like the English "in the name of the Father" etc. Would the Greek equivalent of the Latin, ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος (Greek ἐν + dative = Latin in + ablative), ever be used? — An gr 17:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)
The article should maybe mention the issue of Church authority for trinitarian baptisms. I think there is a historical Catholic practice of considering that all Protestant baptisms are de facto Catholic baptisms because they are trinitarian in character. This explains the development of the ecumenical movement and the absence of modern conversion efforts directed at Protestants. Hence, as it is shown in the 2007 document "Subsistit in" in Lumen Gentium about the ecclesial communities born out of the Reformation, the Catholic Church continues to behave as if it literally owns the souls of the vast majority of Protestants in the world. This issue also applies for the Eastern Orthodox, given that the Holy Office continues to assert that the Eastern Churches are mere local Churches subjected to the authority of the Roman protos. ADM ( talk) 08:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm no theologian, by i'm prety sure in anglican (CoE) services "Holy Ghost" is used, not "Holy Spirit". Shouldn't this be mentioned and explained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.11.178 ( talk) 20:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I won't insist on it, but the "ū" shows that it's 4th declension genitive singular, not 2nd declension nominative singular (similar to the "â" indicating 1st declension ablative singular)... -- AnonMoos ( talk) 12:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
@ AnonMoos, I'm curious what translation was used in the article, then. It looks exactly like the KJV, except that it mysteriously mixes "ye" and "Holy Spirit". I can see "Holy Ghost" being distracting, but this inconsistency (and lack of clarity of which translation is being used) is even more distracting, IMHO. Perhaps a definitive switch to NABRE might be appropriate? Crusadestudent ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
The grave accents in the Greek text have been mysteriously changed to acute. It would be much better to completely remove the grave accent marks, since they did not indicate any feature of ancient Greek pronunciation (they indicate that if the word were to occur in another context, then there would be a pitch accent, but in the actual context where the word is found, there is no pitch accent). AnonMoos ( talk) 21:23, 9 January 2022 (UTC)