![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the quote very much and the external links are interesting but I request that normal layout guidelines are followed: quote should be moved to the bottom and external links have to be described, though my descriptions were probably too wordy. Thanks Andries 18:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wyss why do you think Maria Lara is an actor and not an actress - an actress is a female actor! The curate's egg 14:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Modern English usage avoids gendered job titles wherever possible. This has been going on for thirty years. Wyss 15:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Why is the U.S title of the movie Der Untergang repeatedly used in this article?
Not only is the movie uniformly named der Untergang throughout the Nazi Germany history period series of articles, it is also a title in the language of origin.
I saw the movie Der Untergang and was really moved by the angle the movie took. Up until recently it was rarely shown how the German people had suffered directly under Nazi leadership. Movies like Shindler’s List and The Pianist greatly portrayed the suffering of the Jews.
It is about time that the Russians and Germans get some recognition for the senseless blood that they have spilled for evil ideologies and self-indulging leaders.
Another important scene in the movie is also where the post-Hitler government attempts to surrender to the Russians. They referred in their surrender statement to something like “The real war on the Eastern front.” From a western perspective, very little credit had been given to the savage battles on the Eastern front.
Is there not more information on why Traudl only got the recognition so late in her life? Did she refuse to speak out, was she afraid?
The Toland biography on Hitler (published in 1975) references her unpublished autobiography, so she did speak out. 24.158.8.227 ( talk) 03:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything about the article you specifically object to or would like clarified? Also, could you provide the title and publisher of the 1947 book you mentioned? Thanks. Gwen Gale ( talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I was responding to a question from someone asking about when she began speaking out. As far as references about the 1947 book, I misunderstood what I had read. She wrote a manuscript entitled "Meine Zeit bei Adolf Hitler" in 1947 and that manuscript was the basis of the book published just before she died. I believe it was also used by Toland (he references her unpublished manuscript" and that her providing it and speaking to authors who then publish books is considered speaking out. Also, an obit of her's states, "She helped on a number of historical films, documentaries and books including the Austrian director G.W. Pabst's 1955 feature film Der letzte Akt ("The Last Act"), about the last days in Hitler's Berlin bunker." 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken, the beginning of the movie shows Junge being hired by Hitler in the bunker during the battle of Berlin, instead of in 1942. Perhaps someone could verify this, and edit the movie description. -- Cendres ( talk) 23:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I read in a book that she was not a member of the Nazi party, though I forgot where. I will remove the category female Nazis, because there is no support in the article for the statement that she was a member of the party. I changed to description of the category:Female Nazis to women who were part of the Nazi party, excluding women who were (loosely) affiliated with the Nazi regime without being a member of the Nazi party. Andries 10:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Until a couple of days ago I didn't have the film on DVD. However after reading Traudl Junge's comments posted on this article (the second one involving her realization of the fact she could have known about the Holocaust) I had to get a copy of the movie so I could confirm what to me is a puzzling contradiction. Like I wrote in my latest edit, she claims she and Sophie Scholl were born on the same year. This is absurd, because Scholl was born in May 1921 whereas Traudl was born in March 1920. This means Junge was aproximately 400 days older than the resistence fighter. I have no idea what led her say this, but I think readers should know what's going on. David Irving apparently also noticed this inaccuracy, however I don't trust him 100%. This is because his own "translation" of the dialog implies Traudl claimed Sophie died on the day Hitler hired her. This is not what the subtitles show, not what I make of the German dialog. I don't know when Traudl started working for Hitler but since she was interviewed in November 1942 I assume it might have been 1943, which then fits Junge's description. Perhaps we could nitpick and say maybe she was hired in late November, December 1942 and not 1943, but that's probably unecessary. If anyone knows anything about this, please let me know or make whatever necessary arrangements this article needs. Ishikawa Minoru 15:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently the last paragraph I added to the article was deleted and the information labeled original research. I beg to differ. David Irving was, for several decades, a respected historian who who made a huge contribution to the field of historical research. He is still in fact looked up to as an expert even by some of his opponents. He was merely reviewing the film and probably noticed(as did I, reason why I looked it up on the internet and found his website), that the dates provided by Ms. Junge didn't make sense. There can be no doubts regarding this issue. They were not born on the same year, period. Did she mean they were around the same age? I honestly think she did, but since it's just my opinion and she's no longer around to answer our questions, there's nothing to be done about it. This article and the Sophie Scholl's contradict earch other, something must be done to make things right. -- Ishikawa Minoru 16:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The source—Until the final hour: Hitler's last secretary, Arcade Publishing, 2004. ISBN 1559707283, 9781559707282 pp. 219–222 by Gertraud Junge, Traudl Junge, Melissa Müller (editor)— contradicts much of what is written in the next paragraph the one that starts:
"Junge was held for a year.." Jung could not have been held for a year, if the "final hour:" is to be believed as she was in the British sector of Berlin by late December 1945, and in Bavaria by April/May 1946. "After spending time in the gulag" What does that mean? She seems to have been held in various prisons (unfortunately the online copy restricts access to two pages) so what is the name of the gulag that she was in? -- PBS ( talk) 16:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The article states, "he was then released and allowed to integrate herself into post war Germany.[3] Following the war, Junge was not widely known outside the academic and intelligence communities. Other than appearing in the 1974" How did she support herself after the war? Either with a job/jobs (in which case that needs to be stated and the nature of the job specified in the article) or else was receiving monetary support (in which case, "From whom?" should be clarified in the addition) In either case additional information would be in order. -- Harel ( talk) 01:21, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a footnote here saying that Junge was raped by Soviet troops after she left the bunker. It says that it was "apparently" in the woods. This is all down to a shockingly flippant remark by James P. O'Donnell on p. 292 of The Bunker, something to the effect that soldiers "took them out and did the usual". No real details are given and no sources are cited. He also says that Junge's skull was fractured when she resisted. However Junge's own book, Until the Final Hour, gives considerable details of her departure from the bunker and makes it clear that she was not molested in any way (pp. 219-221). This is not because she was unwilling to talk about rape because on page 219, talking about accepting a cyanide pill from Hitler, she says, "To me suicide was only ever a vague safety net in case I was badly mistreated - tortured or raped." According to the Bunker article, O'Donnell says in the prologue, "Just how close this composite account comes to historical truth, to the kind of documentation an academic historian insists on, I simply cannot say. Nor is it overly important to my purpose." Given that the alleged rape is not an important part of his narrative, and is directly contradicted by the Junge book, I think he cannot be treated as a reliable source in this instance. I am removing all mention of the rape from this article and from Else Krüger and Gerda Christian. -- Scolaire ( talk) 07:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
I've undone the move to Gertraud Junge. It was made with no discussion and without consensus. Junge is widely (and almost always) noted in the sources as Traudl Junge. Meanwhile, the policy, Wikipedia:NAME#Common_names, is straightforward on this and supports keeping the article at Traudl Junge. Gwen Gale ( talk) 17:22, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Currently the article states
Following the war, Junge was not widely known outside the academic and intelligence communities. Other than appearing in two episodes Other than appearing ... relative obscurity ....
Later, Junge became more public about her experiences. In 1989 ...
This is clearly a nonsense and OR of the worst kind (because it is not true).
The content of the article proves this:
- two episodes (#16, "Inside the Reich" (1940–1944) and #21, "Nemesis: Germany (February – May 1945)") of the 1974 television documentary series The World At War and being interviewed for the 1975 book The Bunker by James P. O'Donnell and Uwe Bahnsen ...
Traudl Junge has been portrayed by the following actresses in film and television productions.
- Wanda Moore in the 1973 British television production The Death of Adolf Hitler.
- Ann Lynn in the 1973 British film Hitler: The Last Ten Days.
- Sarah Marshall in the 1981 United States television production The Bunker, which is based on the book The Bunker by James P. O'Donnell and Uwe Bahnsen, who interviewed Traudl Junge among others.
- ...
She is mentioned by name in Lord Hugh Trevor-Roper's most widely read book The Last Days of Hitler (1947) on at least 12 different pages. She appears in the the The World At War series (1973) not one but twice speaking giving detail about events in the Bunker in English. These sources alone would mean that she was not obscure. But in addition she was portrayed in three English language TV Productions/Plays by 1981. So she was well known to far more people that "the academic and intelligence communities" from 1947 onwards and to a Television watching public from 1973.
The wording "was not widely known" and "global celebrity" were originally introduced into the article in August 2005 by user:Wyss and Wyss did not cite a source for this claim. "Relative obscurity" was introduce by user:Wyss ( September 2005) after Wyss had been made aware that Junge had been in the World At War Series.
"Later, Junge became more public about her experiences" ( user:Gwen Gale, May 2010 ). It is difficult to see how she could have been more public about her experiences than she was in the World At War Series (where she sat as a "talking head" wearing bright yellow).
I suggest that the judgements of whether she was or was not obscure or later "[had] celebrity status" is removed and let the facts speak for themselves. -- PBS ( talk) 22:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The quote at the end, attributed to Junge talking about Sophie Scholl, says "I could see that she had been born the same year as I, and that she had been executed the same year I entered into Hitler's service."
Neither of these are consistent with the biographies of Junge and Scholl - Scholl was born in May 1921, Junge was born in March 1920, so Junge was 14 months older. And Scholl was executed in February 1943, but according to this article Junge started working for Hitler in December 1942. Timbouctou ( talk) 17:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I like the quote very much and the external links are interesting but I request that normal layout guidelines are followed: quote should be moved to the bottom and external links have to be described, though my descriptions were probably too wordy. Thanks Andries 18:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wyss why do you think Maria Lara is an actor and not an actress - an actress is a female actor! The curate's egg 14:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Modern English usage avoids gendered job titles wherever possible. This has been going on for thirty years. Wyss 15:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Why is the U.S title of the movie Der Untergang repeatedly used in this article?
Not only is the movie uniformly named der Untergang throughout the Nazi Germany history period series of articles, it is also a title in the language of origin.
I saw the movie Der Untergang and was really moved by the angle the movie took. Up until recently it was rarely shown how the German people had suffered directly under Nazi leadership. Movies like Shindler’s List and The Pianist greatly portrayed the suffering of the Jews.
It is about time that the Russians and Germans get some recognition for the senseless blood that they have spilled for evil ideologies and self-indulging leaders.
Another important scene in the movie is also where the post-Hitler government attempts to surrender to the Russians. They referred in their surrender statement to something like “The real war on the Eastern front.” From a western perspective, very little credit had been given to the savage battles on the Eastern front.
Is there not more information on why Traudl only got the recognition so late in her life? Did she refuse to speak out, was she afraid?
The Toland biography on Hitler (published in 1975) references her unpublished autobiography, so she did speak out. 24.158.8.227 ( talk) 03:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything about the article you specifically object to or would like clarified? Also, could you provide the title and publisher of the 1947 book you mentioned? Thanks. Gwen Gale ( talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I was responding to a question from someone asking about when she began speaking out. As far as references about the 1947 book, I misunderstood what I had read. She wrote a manuscript entitled "Meine Zeit bei Adolf Hitler" in 1947 and that manuscript was the basis of the book published just before she died. I believe it was also used by Toland (he references her unpublished manuscript" and that her providing it and speaking to authors who then publish books is considered speaking out. Also, an obit of her's states, "She helped on a number of historical films, documentaries and books including the Austrian director G.W. Pabst's 1955 feature film Der letzte Akt ("The Last Act"), about the last days in Hitler's Berlin bunker." 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken, the beginning of the movie shows Junge being hired by Hitler in the bunker during the battle of Berlin, instead of in 1942. Perhaps someone could verify this, and edit the movie description. -- Cendres ( talk) 23:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I read in a book that she was not a member of the Nazi party, though I forgot where. I will remove the category female Nazis, because there is no support in the article for the statement that she was a member of the party. I changed to description of the category:Female Nazis to women who were part of the Nazi party, excluding women who were (loosely) affiliated with the Nazi regime without being a member of the Nazi party. Andries 10:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Until a couple of days ago I didn't have the film on DVD. However after reading Traudl Junge's comments posted on this article (the second one involving her realization of the fact she could have known about the Holocaust) I had to get a copy of the movie so I could confirm what to me is a puzzling contradiction. Like I wrote in my latest edit, she claims she and Sophie Scholl were born on the same year. This is absurd, because Scholl was born in May 1921 whereas Traudl was born in March 1920. This means Junge was aproximately 400 days older than the resistence fighter. I have no idea what led her say this, but I think readers should know what's going on. David Irving apparently also noticed this inaccuracy, however I don't trust him 100%. This is because his own "translation" of the dialog implies Traudl claimed Sophie died on the day Hitler hired her. This is not what the subtitles show, not what I make of the German dialog. I don't know when Traudl started working for Hitler but since she was interviewed in November 1942 I assume it might have been 1943, which then fits Junge's description. Perhaps we could nitpick and say maybe she was hired in late November, December 1942 and not 1943, but that's probably unecessary. If anyone knows anything about this, please let me know or make whatever necessary arrangements this article needs. Ishikawa Minoru 15:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently the last paragraph I added to the article was deleted and the information labeled original research. I beg to differ. David Irving was, for several decades, a respected historian who who made a huge contribution to the field of historical research. He is still in fact looked up to as an expert even by some of his opponents. He was merely reviewing the film and probably noticed(as did I, reason why I looked it up on the internet and found his website), that the dates provided by Ms. Junge didn't make sense. There can be no doubts regarding this issue. They were not born on the same year, period. Did she mean they were around the same age? I honestly think she did, but since it's just my opinion and she's no longer around to answer our questions, there's nothing to be done about it. This article and the Sophie Scholl's contradict earch other, something must be done to make things right. -- Ishikawa Minoru 16:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The source—Until the final hour: Hitler's last secretary, Arcade Publishing, 2004. ISBN 1559707283, 9781559707282 pp. 219–222 by Gertraud Junge, Traudl Junge, Melissa Müller (editor)— contradicts much of what is written in the next paragraph the one that starts:
"Junge was held for a year.." Jung could not have been held for a year, if the "final hour:" is to be believed as she was in the British sector of Berlin by late December 1945, and in Bavaria by April/May 1946. "After spending time in the gulag" What does that mean? She seems to have been held in various prisons (unfortunately the online copy restricts access to two pages) so what is the name of the gulag that she was in? -- PBS ( talk) 16:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The article states, "he was then released and allowed to integrate herself into post war Germany.[3] Following the war, Junge was not widely known outside the academic and intelligence communities. Other than appearing in the 1974" How did she support herself after the war? Either with a job/jobs (in which case that needs to be stated and the nature of the job specified in the article) or else was receiving monetary support (in which case, "From whom?" should be clarified in the addition) In either case additional information would be in order. -- Harel ( talk) 01:21, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a footnote here saying that Junge was raped by Soviet troops after she left the bunker. It says that it was "apparently" in the woods. This is all down to a shockingly flippant remark by James P. O'Donnell on p. 292 of The Bunker, something to the effect that soldiers "took them out and did the usual". No real details are given and no sources are cited. He also says that Junge's skull was fractured when she resisted. However Junge's own book, Until the Final Hour, gives considerable details of her departure from the bunker and makes it clear that she was not molested in any way (pp. 219-221). This is not because she was unwilling to talk about rape because on page 219, talking about accepting a cyanide pill from Hitler, she says, "To me suicide was only ever a vague safety net in case I was badly mistreated - tortured or raped." According to the Bunker article, O'Donnell says in the prologue, "Just how close this composite account comes to historical truth, to the kind of documentation an academic historian insists on, I simply cannot say. Nor is it overly important to my purpose." Given that the alleged rape is not an important part of his narrative, and is directly contradicted by the Junge book, I think he cannot be treated as a reliable source in this instance. I am removing all mention of the rape from this article and from Else Krüger and Gerda Christian. -- Scolaire ( talk) 07:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
I've undone the move to Gertraud Junge. It was made with no discussion and without consensus. Junge is widely (and almost always) noted in the sources as Traudl Junge. Meanwhile, the policy, Wikipedia:NAME#Common_names, is straightforward on this and supports keeping the article at Traudl Junge. Gwen Gale ( talk) 17:22, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Currently the article states
Following the war, Junge was not widely known outside the academic and intelligence communities. Other than appearing in two episodes Other than appearing ... relative obscurity ....
Later, Junge became more public about her experiences. In 1989 ...
This is clearly a nonsense and OR of the worst kind (because it is not true).
The content of the article proves this:
- two episodes (#16, "Inside the Reich" (1940–1944) and #21, "Nemesis: Germany (February – May 1945)") of the 1974 television documentary series The World At War and being interviewed for the 1975 book The Bunker by James P. O'Donnell and Uwe Bahnsen ...
Traudl Junge has been portrayed by the following actresses in film and television productions.
- Wanda Moore in the 1973 British television production The Death of Adolf Hitler.
- Ann Lynn in the 1973 British film Hitler: The Last Ten Days.
- Sarah Marshall in the 1981 United States television production The Bunker, which is based on the book The Bunker by James P. O'Donnell and Uwe Bahnsen, who interviewed Traudl Junge among others.
- ...
She is mentioned by name in Lord Hugh Trevor-Roper's most widely read book The Last Days of Hitler (1947) on at least 12 different pages. She appears in the the The World At War series (1973) not one but twice speaking giving detail about events in the Bunker in English. These sources alone would mean that she was not obscure. But in addition she was portrayed in three English language TV Productions/Plays by 1981. So she was well known to far more people that "the academic and intelligence communities" from 1947 onwards and to a Television watching public from 1973.
The wording "was not widely known" and "global celebrity" were originally introduced into the article in August 2005 by user:Wyss and Wyss did not cite a source for this claim. "Relative obscurity" was introduce by user:Wyss ( September 2005) after Wyss had been made aware that Junge had been in the World At War Series.
"Later, Junge became more public about her experiences" ( user:Gwen Gale, May 2010 ). It is difficult to see how she could have been more public about her experiences than she was in the World At War Series (where she sat as a "talking head" wearing bright yellow).
I suggest that the judgements of whether she was or was not obscure or later "[had] celebrity status" is removed and let the facts speak for themselves. -- PBS ( talk) 22:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The quote at the end, attributed to Junge talking about Sophie Scholl, says "I could see that she had been born the same year as I, and that she had been executed the same year I entered into Hitler's service."
Neither of these are consistent with the biographies of Junge and Scholl - Scholl was born in May 1921, Junge was born in March 1920, so Junge was 14 months older. And Scholl was executed in February 1943, but according to this article Junge started working for Hitler in December 1942. Timbouctou ( talk) 17:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)