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This article is a waste of time and effort. Both the Hungarian and Romanian POV's are grossly irredentist. Has anyone considered looking at our history from a Transylvanian POV? Perhaps independence would solve a lot of these issues, but that will not happen in my lifetime. We've spent centuries defending "christian" Europe from the Turks only to get the shaft in the end. The rest of Europe is affraid of a strong power in middle Europe. If we spent less time arguing over who was here first maybe we could get on with more important issues.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.195.26 ( talk • contribs)
Gentlemen,
As I am sure that you are all aware our history is complicated and, in many cases, contensious. We can argue the "facts" ad nauseam, however, there will always be a compelling arguement from one camp or the other. May I suggest that the article be revised to include ALL sides from a completely NPOV and point out that certain parts of our history are uncertain at best? As it exists, the article and dialogue that accompanies it paints a less than pretty picture. Our history is very long and colourful. I would hate to see someone who is not familiar with our situation get the wrong impression. We might not always agree on some things, but we have all managed to co-exist for centuries, not always on the most friendly terms, but we survived non the less. Rik 06/23/06
Yes and no.
Our history is indeed colourful, and we managed to survive, but not as a nation, but two.
You can't be both hungarian and romanian at the same time, even from a joint origin like me, and a Transylvanian state is an utopia at best. Not because it can't be done, but because we won't accept it, and the bloodshed scenario will follow.
[Do we really need to be a "nation"?? The most powerful country in the world is a polyglot. Plus, I'm willing to bet that a lot of Americans would take issue with the strict definition of nation. In their "Pledge of a Allegience" they refer to themeselves as "one nation, under God, indivisible". Rik 08/07/06]
We're not discussing the USA here, so their definiton of a nation doesn't concern me, they may call themselves whatever they want, all I know is that the "nation of Transylvania" DOES NOT EXIST. Shove it. Cyani 10.08.2006
And the truth must appear in full colour, not from a joint "accepted by all sides" perspective. History did not begin in 2000 BC, nor in 1000 A.D.. But someone was here first.
[History began at the beginning. Not in 200BC or in 1000AD; stating either is beyond stupid. My point is that it cannot be definitively proven that the Magyars or Vlach were there first. For all intents and purposes they may have coexisted quite comfortably for centuries. Rik 08/07/06]
I can prove who was here first.
1. Fact: The daco-getae tribes we're populating Transylvania in B.C. times. This is proven without a doubt (source - Herodot). The Romanian language includes words originating from those tribes.
2. Fact: The Romans conquered and occupied Transylvania, after defeating the Dacian Empire. This is proven without doubt (source - Trajan's column in Rome. IT'S STILL THERE.
3. Fact: After the Roman conquest, the conquered people in Transylvania started using the latin language and formed a new nation (exactly like the french, the spanish, portuguese and the italian peoples). This newly formed nation DID NOT GO ANYWHERE, it's here and it will forever be... we'll at least until the goddamn sun will die. This is proven through the latinity of the romanian language. PROVEN I SAY, not idiotically speculated. WE WE'RE HERE, THE HUNS CAME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. Beyond doubt. So shove this too. Cyani 10.08.2006
The past is past. The article as it stands now is a very good history of the Romanians in Traysylvania. However, given the ethinic diversity of the region, would it not be appropiate to add similar articles, or ammend it, giving the history of the other ethnic groups in the region equal time? So you can shove it too. 08/18/06
All claims following are utterly stupid. Discussion over what happened in the meantime is also totally irrelevant, even if at times the region was under someone's control, or it was completely populated by one side, since it was not sold or traded by the original owner in exchange for a herd of steppe horses, it was inherited. Get over it! -- Cyani 22.07.2006
[Tell that to the Quebecois in Canada. The French have a much longer history in North America than the English, however, as a result of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, the British took control. In wasn't until the 1960's and the beginning of the Quiet Revolution that Quebecois nationalism became part of the Canadian lexicon. Rik 09/07/06]
Yeah, and you lost WWI. As a result, your empire has been reduced to... well, you know. Giving you the chance to act on it... shove it nr.3. Cyani 26.07.2006
And the treaties that followed WWI gave Transylvania to Romania. This had more to do with economics and political bullshit than it did to ethnicity. You and I both know that. So you can shove it sideways. 08/18/06
Not that it matters much regarding the article, but I'm always amazed by how some people can identify themselves with people that lived literally thousands of years ago - even if they are their descendants (which cannot be proven anyway over a time span as vast as this). "We were here first" is the most ridiculous argument used on all sides of any ethnic conflict - the point is only to prove that "we" are right and "they" are not, and thus prevent the scenario where somehow all the people living in a region could be peaceful and content with their lives (surprise: it is possible). Shame, shame, shame.
K
issL
15:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm not ashamed, I would be if I would be you and I had absolutely nothing to base claims on, I have things like the language I speak or my people's customs, a history that stretches for millenia, ancestors that Herodot and Trajan's column speak of, even to this day. So to question if I was here or not is a matter I would deal with STFU if I was you. "Thousands of years" seems such a long time for you indeed, but still you trumpet your 1000 like it was "the time of all times", but we just as we are now we claim 2000, and there are words in my language older than 3000 years, but I'm frankly surprised you stopped claiming that U we're here first, like some of you used to, or that u found NO ONE when showing up here, now THAT is hard to believe and ridiculous. So tell u what: STOP DREAMING, as long as we will draw breath, we will be here laying claims u can't match, in our most sacred and ancient land, and we asked nothing of you, for we don't need NOTHING FROM YOU, and you've taken so much from us... so guess what, we have learned, peace is for the weak, we gained nothing but trouble from peace and "happy" coexistence. So take my advice: be humble, be wise..... and IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING, JUST LOOK WHERE YOU COME FROM. Cyani 26.07.2006
You? Tollerant? This makes me sick. And get your facts right, Transylvania was an independent principality more than it was part of Hungary, which of course was not Hungary, but Austro-Hungary. Cyani 10.08.2006
Sapienti sat. K issL 16:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Glad to see them.... and your point is...? Cyani 10.08.2006
My point was "Sapienti sat". I'm afraid I can't put it any clearer. K issL 10:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Two variants of Turkish names, including the one I've just removed, are listed at the link for "other languages". That link was put in place a few months back by consensus among the editors then active - the names that are historically the most relevant are already listed, we shouldn't clutter up the lead any more. K issL 13:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there a map of transylvania that can be used for this article?-- Scott3 12:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Dahn deleted this: ==Transylvania in the future== - - In the hungarian community a lot of people is considering that the independency of Transylvnia would solve the hungarian-romanian conflict.(This disguised conflict, which is a shoal for the future, because the hungarian problems are not emerege.) Some of hungarians think that Transylvania need to be an autonom republic, because a lot of money is taken from Transylnia, but there are romanians too, who belives in autonomy of Transylvania. There are a lot of parties who have some plans about this. Example: Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania(Uniunea Democrată Maghiară din România), Christian Democratic Party(Partidul Creştin Democrat), Hungarian Civic Alliance (Uniunii Civice a Maghiare).
I don't now why did you delete all this section? There are a lot of true things... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.146.75.26 ( talk • contribs)
Given the lack of proof of notability (not to mention the poor English), Dahn was absolutely right to delete the paragraph. I've never heard of efforts towards the autonomy of Transylvania as a whole; I've only heard of this (which is in the right place, clear, and perfectly sufficient, in my opinion). K issL 09:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The text of the map with light yellow/dark yellow needs to be clearer. I saw that KIDB almost fully deleted the text I added. But where did those regions came from? Didn they come from the Austrian Empire?
And isn't the light yellow part the hystorical principality of Transylvania? Dpotop 12:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
i would like to edit the article Transylvania in an objective way. I will express my POV hoping to establish a convention that will allow consequent changes on every article where Transylvania is reffered to. these are my POVs about Transylvania:
1.)Transylvania was a principality and a province. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
2.)Today, Transylvania as a legal entity (administrative division) doesnt exist.. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
3.)Romanians, Magyars, Germans, Czechs and Slovaks and others citizens of Romania dont have Transylvania written in their ID paper as an identifyiable address, but Counties of Romania (eg. "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova County, Romania", not "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, in Wallachia, Romania" nor "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania". In historical context, a population lived in Transylvania (eg " Michael the Brave was born in Wallachia") Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
4.)The address of a locality in Romanian documents is given by county not by historical region (eg. "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Romania" not "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania" nor "city Ploiesti, Wallachia, Romania"). In historical or touristical or additional information paragraphs, a locality is, or was situated in Transylvania. (eg, "city Ploiesti is situated in Wallachia, and it was founded during the reign of Michael the Brave"), but not in the lead paragraph Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Targu Mures is the capital of Mures County, in central Romania
Geography
The city lies in the valley of Mures river in the Transylvanian Plateau at the base of the Eastern Carpathians etc.
History
First mentioned in historic documents as Marosvasarhely by the magyars [...] a city of Transylvania, a city of Habsburg empire [...] a city of Hungarian kingdom
Population
Mures county has a population ... etc. Ehnic Hungarians reffer to it as Maros. etc.
Mures (in romanian; Maros in hungarian;) is a river in south-central Europe, rising in Romania (etc.) and flowing into Tisza in Hungary. this means Romania and Hungary share authority over Mures river.
Targu Mures (romanian; Marosvasarhely in hungarian) is a city in Mures county in central Romania. i am not entirely sure about the convention in this case, i supose it is "Marosvasarhely appears in documents of recent history, and is kept as legacy name
Mures county is situated in north-central Romania, area ... capital Targu Mures. this means Mures county is solely administrated by Romania.
as u can see Britannica doesnt mention Transylvania region in the lead paragraph of not even one of the 3 articles. it gives information about Transylvania in the history section, or cultural section, if such "transylvanian culture" exists. Criztu 12:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
5.)A County of Romania has precedence/preemption over Transylvania in articles that refer to the teritory of today Romania, that was once the teritory of Transylvania. where the employment of a County of Romania is impossible Transylvania will be used (i cant find such situation to exemplify) Criztu 16:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
6.)Romanians from Transylvania proclaimed Union of Transylvania with Romania in 1918
7.)Consult the definition of Annexation before connecting Annexation with Trianon and Transylvania
8.) Michael the Brave brought Transylvania and Wallachia and Moldavia under his authority in 1599-1601.
9.)Transylvania was administrated by Hungary year-year.
10.)Transylvania is a historic region of Romania
11.)Romanian editors might not be aware of the history of Transylvania out of Romanian history, and Hungarian editors might not be aware of the history of Transylvania out of Hungarian history
I would add a 12: Banat is a historical region on its own and not part of Transylvania-- Radufan 21:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think every bit of Transylvania article should be discussed so that any missconceptions be cleared.
My goal in editing the below lead paragraph was to mention all significant stages of Transylvania. It was an independent state that was brought under authority of Kgdom of Hungary in ~1000. It was an autonomous province during Janos Hunyadi in ~1450. next an (autonomous?) province of kgdom of Hungary during Mathias Corvin. next a principality vassal to the Otoman Empire until 1600 when it was brought by Michael the brave under his authority. then regained independency, then brought under Habsburg authority, then under Austria-Hungary, then Romanians proclaimed union with Romania in 1918, then Treaty of Trianon ratified the union in 1920.
Transylvania (Romanian: Ardeal or Transilvania; Hungarian: Erdély; German: Siebenbürgen (help·info)) is a historical region in the center of Romania. Transylvania was an independent Principality, and a Province of the Kingdom of Hungary and of the Habsburg Monarchy since Middle Ages, with a period of vassalage to the Ottoman Empire and a brief year under the authority of Wallachian ruler Michael the Brave until the end of World War I in 1918, when the Romanian National Party from Transylvania proclaimed union of Transylvania with Kingdom of Romania. The political union was ratified in the Treaty of Trianon in 1920.
if i wrote something that might be seen as NPOV, (i can say i am not the best in formulating things perfectly), please address the matter. If we discuss the misunderstandings and weaknesses of this article, it will clear things out Criztu 09:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not simply an effort to replicate Britannica. If you sample three or four decent encyclopedias (in English, besides Britannica, I'd mention the late lamented Collier's and Americana) that carries more weight. But still, we have to make our own editorial decisions. And I don't really think "Britannica has expertise, u dont" cuts it. Dahn has certainly shown himself to be knowledgable on the topic at hand. And I dare say that looking over and over to Britannica for guidance (or any other tertiary work, but especially the same one over and over) is not the mark of an expert. - Jmabel | Talk 06:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
"Another traditional division is the Hungarian (and Austro-Hungarian) administrative system" - this is NPOV
Tradition - 1.) A meme; custom or practice taught by one generation to another, often orally
I think traditional hungarian "divisions" would be "mezoseg, szekelyfold, nosnerland etc.". Since Administrative divisions of Hungary are something that imply "a state authority" (just like Counties of Romania are divisions of Romania) these "administrative divisions" belong the history paragraphs. where Hungary exercised authority over Transylvania, link to Administrative divisions of Hungary is provided. where Romania exercised authoriy over Transylvania, link to Counties of Romania is provided. You dont see romanians rushing to put a text in the lead "traditional divisions of Transilvania see Counties of Romania". i understand a hungarian editor may be suspicious about the intentions of a romanian editor of Transylvania. I hope u will understand that providing information about "administration of Hungary" in the lead paragraph would consequently motivate romanians to put information about "administration of ROmania" in the lead paragraph, and the lead paragraph soon becomes an article itself Criztu 09:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
the below text is from Britannica concise. I use Britannica as an expert guide, recognised by Wikipedia. Criztu 11:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Transylvania Britannica Concise
Historic region, northwestern and central Romania.
It comprises a plateau surrounded by the Carpathian Mountains and the Transylvanian Alps. It formed the nucleus of the Dacian kingdom and was included in the Roman province of Dacia in the 2nd century AD. The Magyars (Hungarians) conquered the area at the end of the 9th century. When Hungary was divided between the Habsburgs and the Turks in the 16th century, Transylvania became an autonomous principality within the Ottoman Empire. It was attached to Habsburg-controlled Hungary at the end of the 17th century. Transylvania was the scene of severe fighting in the Hungarian revolution against Austria in 1848. When Austria-Hungary was defeated in World War I, the Romanians of Transylvania proclaimed the land united with Romania. Hungary regained the northern portion during World War II, but the entire region was ceded to Romania in 1947
I see the below formulation as NPOV, pointing successive significant moments for both romanians and hungarians. Criztu 13:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
"Transylvania an independent state in the 9th century, became part of kgdom of Hungary in 11th century, became Principality under Otoman suzeraity in the 15th, briefly united with Wallachia and Moldova in 1600, autonomous province of the Habsburg empire until 19th when became province of kgdom of Hungary again (u add brief info about a proclamation of union by hungarians), until WW 1 when became part of Romania (i add brief info about proclamation of union with romania) ratified by Treaty of Trianon (u add info on how it was taken from HU, i add info on how it was ratification of union proclamation)."
And I quote:
Hungary undertakes to recognise the full force of the Treaties of Peace and additional conventions which have been or may be concluded by the Allied and Associated Powers with the Powers who fought on the side of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, and to recognise whatever dispositions have been or may be made concerning the territories of the former German Empire, of Austria, of the Kingdom of Bulgaria and of the Ottoman Empire, and to recognise the new States within their frontiers as there laid down.
Hungary hereby recognises and accepts the frontiers of Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Poland, Roumania, the Serb-Croat-Slovene State and the Czecho-Slovak State as these frontiers may be determined by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers.
Hungary renounces, so far as she is concerned, in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title over the territories which previously belonged to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and which, being situated outside the new frontiers of Hungary as described in Article 27, Part II (Frontiers of Hungary), have not at present been otherwise disposed of.
Hungary undertakes to accept the settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in regard to these territories, particularly in so far as concerns the nationality of the inhabitants.
Hungary will hand over without delay to the Allied and Associated Governments concerned archives, registers, plans, titledeeds and documents of every kind belonging to the civil, military, financial, judicial or other forms of administration in the ceded territories. If any one of these documents, archives, registers, title-deeds or plans is missing, it shall be restored by Hungary upon the demand of the Allied or Associated Government concerned.
Key terms: "disposition", "frontiers as there laid down", "frontiers determined by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers", "renounces, in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title", "accept the settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers", "Hungary will hand over without delay to the Allied and Associated Governments". Dahn 16:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I guess a tag Disputed should be put to the article until we come to an agreement Criztu 11:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
what, u want to discuss what is legal and what not ? we are both lacking expertise. I choose Britannica formulation. It doesnt reflect all my opinions, but at least has expertise. Criztu 16:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
While I disagree with Critzu's proposed changes, I also disagree with Dahn's stance that the lead is good in its present form. As it stands, the lead is way too heavy on details, it appears to be leaning towards a Hungarian POV, and it fails its purpose as outlined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lead_section. To the point:
As far as the neutrality tag goes, I think it's warranted. It doesn't have to be Critzu against many, or Dahn against many; the fact that two equally competent editors think of each other as biased is more than enough justification. Dmaftei 18:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it is entirely appropriate to say we have a disagreement about NPOV, but the {{ disputed}} tag relates to something being factually wrong, and I haven't seen that be the case here except perhaps temporarily and accidentally. - Jmabel | Talk 06:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I requested mediation in reaching a consensus about Transylvania article at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 Transylvania article Criztu 14:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
This case is still listed as "open". Is further mediation required here or can I close the case? -- Ideogram 07:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Apart from Criztu, nobody ever thought mediation was required, and he hasn't been around since 14 August. This is why interest in the case just died down... I guess it's perfectly ok to close the case. (I thought you had, anyway.) K issL 08:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add a new paragraph about ethnology to make a clear distinction between Mezoseg and eg Partium. I will also add a map with the most important Romanian, Hungarian and Saxon ethnological regions. -- fz22 20:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
--
fz22 14:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanx :)--
fz22
14:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The most important Saxon regions are listed here: [4] [5] . These include: Nösnerland (Ţara Năsăudului, Naszód), Siebenbürgische Heide (Câmpia Transilvaniei, Mezöség), Zwischenkokelgebiet, Reener Ländchen (Zona Reghinului), Unterwald (around Sebeş, Antesilvana?), Hatzeger Land (Ţara Hategului), Altland (near Sibiu), Weinland (around Mediaş, Ţara Vinului), Fogarascher Land (Ţara Fâgârasului), Haferland (around and west of Rupea), the Burzenland (ara ŢBârsei, Barcaság), and Drei Stühle (Trei Scaune, Háromszék). Of these I would say that Burzenland, Nösnerland, Unterwald, and Altland were the most notable. This Romanian link also seems to list a number of alternate names, but I don't speak the language. Olessi 17:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's establish a guideline. First of all, the issue of Bukovina is moot (I myself do not see why it would be a Hungarian region - but what is relevant here is that it is not part of Transylvania). Also: the map need not and should not include regions that were political in nature (Hungarian or Austrian counties, Romanian counties - if these are present in the listings above, please remove them); the map need not present ethnic subgroups (especially since these are, like the Csangok, not really inside Transylvania - those that are inside Transylvania, as the link provided by Olessi reads, are covered by the name of the Gyimesek subregion). What this map should present: those regions that are defined solely by folk customs, cultural characteristics, and not reflected in any administrative grid (perhaps with the exception of Szekelyfold, which arguably fits the both main criterion and the administrative one). I also propose that this map and the projected header in text be a subheader of the Geography section). A minor point: if possible, regions bordering Transylvania or Transylvania-proper be featured under their most common name in English (i.e. "Banat", not "Banát"); if this last point and the one I made about Bukovina are controversial, we could drop those references altogether - "Banat" is not as much ethnographic as it is political in nature, and "Bukovina" is not part of Transylvania. Dahn 20:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, by the look of it, that map will need to be way larger (lest we flood it with letters). Dahn 20:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Romanian regions (with the proper diacritics): Maramureş - as indicated on the map; equivalent to Maramaros
Mărginimea Sibiului - between the northern limit of the Olt Gorge (east) and the Sebeş River (west)
Ţara Bârsei - as indicated on the map; equivalent to Burzenland
Ţara Haţegului - equivalent to Hatzeger Land
Ţara Mocanilor - south of Kalotaszeg, down to the River Ompoi (Hung. Ampoi), comprising the middle course of the Arieş (Aranyos).
Ţara Moţilor - as indicated on the map
Ţara Năsăudului - Nösnerland
Ţara Oaşului - as indicated on the map
Ţara Oltului (the same as "Ţara Făgăraşului", but a more proper term) - equivalent to Fogarascher Land; a narrow east-west oriented strip along the Olt, formed around Făgăraş and corresponding with the depression. Dahn 12:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This map is likely to meet another problem (I would call it "a minor one", but you never know whose sensibilities you touch): the matter of text placement and priorities on the map. I propose the following pattern (bear with me):
or
or any such indentation.
(where all three names confined within the limits of the area defined under step 1)
This could, of course, be further made clear by the use of different curvatures and/or angles for all name variants. However I suggest that the curves and angle degrees themselves should not vary, since this could confuse the reader and lead him/her to believe that the lettering would indicate three different regions, and not three different names for the same one. Example:
and not
Since all three names may be argued to be of equal importance, the editor may want to simply randomize their selection. Ideally, this should tend towards having an number of regions where "name 1" is Hungarian equal with the number of regions where "name 1" is Romanian and regions where "name 1" is Saxon. This pattern could also be extended to regions where two names are available.
Does this make sense? Tell me your opinions. Dahn 21:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor who has repeatedly replaced the section about "Transylvania as part of Romania" like this: don't. It's nothing like conforming to the standards of Wikipedia, most notably NPOV; it is a violation of the copyrights of this site; and it is bad form anyway to deliberately avoid discussion and try forcing something into the article. (And, by the way, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of remaining in the article for over a few hours, since anyone watching this article will revert this kind of edit on sight.) K issL 14:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The introduction part: "Initially part of the Kingdom of Hungary". Well, was it Transylvania initially part of the Dacian state? History does not begin in 1000 AD. :) PANONIAN (talk) 11:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The relevant part of the above debate:
Dahn 12:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is Transylvania, not History of Transylvania. Presumably someone coming here wants a mainly geographically and culturally oriented article. A lot of what has been debated here is probably more relevant to the other article. We need an overview of the history here, certainly one that indicates that there are competing narratives and certainly one that gives an indication of why the term Transylvania can designate several overlapping but not identical regions, but I would hope that the focus of the article can be more on the place as it is today or has been in living memory, and push the details of the history to History of Transylvania. The history section has come to be half of the article, pretty silly when we have a separate History of Transylvania article. - Jmabel | Talk 06:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this version has a lead section that is pretty much OK. It would maybe be useful if those who agree would list their names here, and those who disagree would explain why. K issL 10:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I strongly support Critzu's fight against hungarian irredentism. -- 211.237.95.101 12:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
For Criztu's claim to follow guidelines, please read the lead sections in articles such as England, Ireland, Bangladesh (featured), Belgium (featured), etc. and tell me how you think they can possibly sanction Criztu's "guidelines". For those who want to see what is disputed and disputable about Criztu's historical perspective, let them look into the long discussion above and that on the mediation page opened by Criztu at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 Transylvania article. (I cannot possibly be demanded to spell out my reasons for the third time around, and I kindly ask anybody wanting to form an opinion about this to check points made on those places.)
Changes were proposed to move part of the present lead into the geography section, and expand the latter to cover ethnology, thus making the arrangement of subregions more specific and clear. I endorse these changes, and I reject all interventions in the text made by Criztu - as biased, casual, irrelevant to the lead section and, let's not forget, ungrammatical. Dahn 10:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
See Bratianu's speech to the Chamber after the Paris Treaty, where he complains about the refusal of the Entente to accept Romania as an ally and to sanction the 1916 guarantees.
See also the National Party's demands from the new constitutional regime and the National Party's conflict with the Liberals some time after Averescu dissolved the Alba Iulia Council with brutal force, with mention of how neither the Assembly nor Wilsonian principles had been passed into the new constitution (whereas the Assembly had required that the conditions it specified for the teritory to join Romania, at a time always described as in the future, be the basis for organic laws).
See Stevan K. Pavlowitch's History of the Balkans, Chapter 10 (p.214-215 in my Ro edition, Polirom): about the Treaty being the sole agreement concerning Transylvania, with the elloquent accent on the Romanian occupation ("[the Treaty] left Hungary with a third of its pre-war territory"; "Romania was the winner, In the spring of 1919, its troops had entered Hungarian territ. to demand their rights"; "[in Paris], the Allies considered themselves free from their obligations"; "Bratianu refused all compromise" (my underlining), after the gvt change, Romania accepted provisions regarding minorities (p. 215). What does this tell us about the Romania's statute in 1919 Transylvania? THAT IT WAS VOID until the signing of the Treaty, and that it was centered on unsanctioned occupation! Let me also add that there is no mention of the assembly as legal vehicle for the change in sovereignty.
I have more sources to back this up, but I wish others would simply do some investigation of his/her own in what is common sense data freely or cheaply available out there. Note that the facts (pure facts, gentlemen) do not do anything to increase the amount of justice in exaggerated Hungarian claims. They are to be used for what they are, regardless of not going out of their way to flatter the distorted, if commonplace, Romanian perspective. Dahn 17:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Without getting into the bulk of this: Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians (especially when viewed from a nationalist perspective), but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania, and certainly does not belong in the lead paragraph of this article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I will copy here the message left on my talk page by the person mediating between me and Criztu. This constitutes a provisional answer, but no one has taken up mediation after that.
"Unfortunately, I am going to be taking a wikibreak soon and will not be able to continue the mediation any further. My attempts to get another mediator to take over have failed, and you may have to find some one else to finish it. However, I can make these remarks on the topic abstractedly:
Hope that helps you. -- BarryC (talk) Uncyc 15:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)"
The message was posted by BarryC on Criztu's talk page as well. The changes he made in the text with knowledge of this verdict, the repeated allegation that, otherwise, the text "cannot be NPOV", show, IMO, that Criztu isn't just imposing views that are not sanctioned by anybody else, but that he is moving towards overt vandalism. Dahn 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand that a lot of Criztu's edits may have been anti-Hungarian, but why was the reference to Michael the Brave removed from the lead paragraph? Even though this union lasted for a very short time, it is still relevant and significant to the Romanian history of Transylvania, which is significant to Transylvania in general considering, particularly considering that Romanians are a significant ethnic group in Transylvania (in fact, the majority). The lead paragraph mentions how Transylvania was part of Hungary and Austria-Hungary, and that's all good and well, but if that's going to be mentioned, I think the Michael the Brave episode - which only takes up a few words - should also be mentioned, since it marks the first union of Transylvania with the rest of the majority-Romanian territories.
Ronline
✉
03:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel has said it all above: "Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians, but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania". Having a Hungarian bias, I am also worried that including a sentence about him in the lead would suggest "Transylvania always had a Romanian majority" to the reader, which is controversial, thus at best OR, and at worst factually wrong. K issL 10:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
lt;---------- Since several people have had no hesitancy to repeat themselves in this discussion, I am going to (literally) repeat myself: "Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians, but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania." We "should not… write history backwards." - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The lead section is too LARGE. I would suggest moving much of its content (about regions of Transylvania) to "geography" section. Opinions? PANONIAN (talk) 21:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am putting everyone on notice: if people continue on this page to say things like "shove it" and "shove it sideways" and other comparably uncivil things in addressing one another, I will feel free to block the offender for a week, without regard to political views or to whether "Johnny said it first." Losing your temper once in a while can happen to anyone, but this has become an unacceptable pattern. - Jmabel | Talk 19:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the following article carefully in order to understand the real world-wide recognised history : - As somebody else said, the "nation of Transylvania" DOES NOT EXIST, it is pure ROMANIA and Romanians! Therefore, we will tell some real history here. Within the chronicles of Herodotus , one may find that he described the Dacians(Getae) as the nation living within the present Romanian and Moldavian territory, including the part that is called Transylvania today, which means “beyond the forests”, after the Latin definition given by Romans and which consisted of the Carpathian Mountains and the Pannonian Plains. A more accountable map can be found here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Dacia_82_BC.png .. Therefore, the nation living there consisted of dacians, which were known as Geton (plural Getae) in Greek writings, and as Dacus (plural Daci) and Getae in Roman documents. The dacians were conquered, after great efforts, by the Romans and Dacia was transformed into a Roman Province. Following, it was a period of Romanization, period when the main Romanian people rose. As an answer to the Magyar origin, the history says that their starting point within the actual Hungary is related to the invasion of the Mongols ruled by Genghis Han and the Huns ruled by Attila within the European territory. After their settlement within the Pannonian Plains, the Hungarian people emerged, by mixing with the local populations. As a clear conclusion, one may say that nobody can contradict the written past or the great historians in terms of the origin of Dacians and the territory within they lived, called today Transilvania/Transylvania. The truth that has to be admitted is that Dacians/Getae were here as a nation BEFORE the Hungarian people came over and rose as a nationality. Moreover, NEITHER the Mongols and Huns NOR the actual Hungarians WERE here BEFORE the Romanization of Dacians, therefore they were not present before the emerging stage of the Romanian people. International history admits that the Hungarians appeared within today’s Hungary territory around the 9th century A.C. (according to Britannica) as an immigrating people coming from the actual Tibet region/Mongolia. After settlement they conquered Transilvania and nowadays they fabricate they were first to live on this land. Bear in mind that Romanians will never stop claiming their internationally admitted origin, dating from Daco-Romans times and they will never stop viewing Trasilvania as their own home! If the Hungarians want to live without conflicts, they should stop claiming what does not belong to them, the Transylvania land. PEACE! —The preceding Sign your posts on talk pages comment was added by Cabbynet ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 1 October 2006.
Please cite your sources about the assimilation of the minorities of Transylvania during the Ceausescu regime.
About the migration of the minorities from Transylvania to Bucharest: I'm removing this part, as I reckon there are much much more Romanians who migrated to Bucharest than Hungarians (or whatever minority). You can't say that the percent of Hungarians in Transylvania diminished because they came to Bucharest. -- Disconnect 6 17:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the exodus of the Saxons qualifies as "forced assimilation policy". Actually, Romanians themselves leave even today due to the poor living conditions. Many would have left at the time, too, if only they were allowed to. :) Uniform economic causes do not make for "forced assimilation". It's more like "economic migration exploited by the Communist regime". Dpotop 13:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Hungarians, I have no information except the census data. However, when making such a statement one should cite some source. Dpotop 13:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Finally, if you mix "forced assimilation" with "voluntary assimilation", you should make sure there is no confusion. Dpotop 13:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice some problems with the external links on the Transylvania page. The first link called 'Transylvania Tourism" leads to the Transylvanian Webcatalogue in Hungarian language, little to do with Transylvanian Tourism. The next one is called 'Cycling in Transylvania' which is very nice, but not only it hasn't been updated since 2001, it also represents a commercial biking holiday company.
I propose to re-name the first link as Transylvanian Webcatalogue and delete the second one.
I myself tried to add the links www.kalnoky.org (Built Heritage Preservation in Transylvania) and www.transylvaniancastle.com (Heritage Tourism in Transylvania) as I believe it could be of general interest to those who want to know more about genuine Transylvania, but the link got immediately erased as spam. If the cycling link is accepted, I don't see why links on Transylvanian Heritage get deleted. Gingko1 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Gingko1 Gingko1 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any strong opinons about the subject myself. i was waiting for other users to weigh in. You can introduce the changes as you best see fit yoursef - I don't think anyone would object to renaming and reordering links, but your link may get reverted again. Dahn 11:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'd get deleted immediately. We have enough problems out here to make understand the authorities and locals that built and natural heritage needs to be preserved and can actually become an important asset for rural development. Thanks god, our foreign guests appreciate what we are doing and support our efforts. Gingko1 08:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Gingko1 Gingko1 08:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the Romanian Academy and the Hungarian Academy decided to collaborate on a common version of the history of Transylvania. It's an important development, so it should figure in the article. But where? Here is the link [6]. Dpotop 11:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do we say Transylvania is "in the centre of Romania"? I suppose the centre of Romania is in Transylvania, but clearly Transylvania, especially in the broad definition used here, constitutes the northwest of the country as well. - Jmabel | Talk 03:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if the point was considered settled but that's far from being the case. The Banat region is no part of Transilvania. A good analyse of the improper inclusion of Banat in Transilvania can be found here: (in romanian) Apartine Banatul de Transilvania? Nu! by banatian historian Sorin Fortiu. I added a "citation needed" tag at the beginning. It follows that all references to the counties and the cities of Banat are also false. -- Radufan 20:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
This article is a waste of time and effort. Both the Hungarian and Romanian POV's are grossly irredentist. Has anyone considered looking at our history from a Transylvanian POV? Perhaps independence would solve a lot of these issues, but that will not happen in my lifetime. We've spent centuries defending "christian" Europe from the Turks only to get the shaft in the end. The rest of Europe is affraid of a strong power in middle Europe. If we spent less time arguing over who was here first maybe we could get on with more important issues.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.195.26 ( talk • contribs)
Gentlemen,
As I am sure that you are all aware our history is complicated and, in many cases, contensious. We can argue the "facts" ad nauseam, however, there will always be a compelling arguement from one camp or the other. May I suggest that the article be revised to include ALL sides from a completely NPOV and point out that certain parts of our history are uncertain at best? As it exists, the article and dialogue that accompanies it paints a less than pretty picture. Our history is very long and colourful. I would hate to see someone who is not familiar with our situation get the wrong impression. We might not always agree on some things, but we have all managed to co-exist for centuries, not always on the most friendly terms, but we survived non the less. Rik 06/23/06
Yes and no.
Our history is indeed colourful, and we managed to survive, but not as a nation, but two.
You can't be both hungarian and romanian at the same time, even from a joint origin like me, and a Transylvanian state is an utopia at best. Not because it can't be done, but because we won't accept it, and the bloodshed scenario will follow.
[Do we really need to be a "nation"?? The most powerful country in the world is a polyglot. Plus, I'm willing to bet that a lot of Americans would take issue with the strict definition of nation. In their "Pledge of a Allegience" they refer to themeselves as "one nation, under God, indivisible". Rik 08/07/06]
We're not discussing the USA here, so their definiton of a nation doesn't concern me, they may call themselves whatever they want, all I know is that the "nation of Transylvania" DOES NOT EXIST. Shove it. Cyani 10.08.2006
And the truth must appear in full colour, not from a joint "accepted by all sides" perspective. History did not begin in 2000 BC, nor in 1000 A.D.. But someone was here first.
[History began at the beginning. Not in 200BC or in 1000AD; stating either is beyond stupid. My point is that it cannot be definitively proven that the Magyars or Vlach were there first. For all intents and purposes they may have coexisted quite comfortably for centuries. Rik 08/07/06]
I can prove who was here first.
1. Fact: The daco-getae tribes we're populating Transylvania in B.C. times. This is proven without a doubt (source - Herodot). The Romanian language includes words originating from those tribes.
2. Fact: The Romans conquered and occupied Transylvania, after defeating the Dacian Empire. This is proven without doubt (source - Trajan's column in Rome. IT'S STILL THERE.
3. Fact: After the Roman conquest, the conquered people in Transylvania started using the latin language and formed a new nation (exactly like the french, the spanish, portuguese and the italian peoples). This newly formed nation DID NOT GO ANYWHERE, it's here and it will forever be... we'll at least until the goddamn sun will die. This is proven through the latinity of the romanian language. PROVEN I SAY, not idiotically speculated. WE WE'RE HERE, THE HUNS CAME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. Beyond doubt. So shove this too. Cyani 10.08.2006
The past is past. The article as it stands now is a very good history of the Romanians in Traysylvania. However, given the ethinic diversity of the region, would it not be appropiate to add similar articles, or ammend it, giving the history of the other ethnic groups in the region equal time? So you can shove it too. 08/18/06
All claims following are utterly stupid. Discussion over what happened in the meantime is also totally irrelevant, even if at times the region was under someone's control, or it was completely populated by one side, since it was not sold or traded by the original owner in exchange for a herd of steppe horses, it was inherited. Get over it! -- Cyani 22.07.2006
[Tell that to the Quebecois in Canada. The French have a much longer history in North America than the English, however, as a result of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, the British took control. In wasn't until the 1960's and the beginning of the Quiet Revolution that Quebecois nationalism became part of the Canadian lexicon. Rik 09/07/06]
Yeah, and you lost WWI. As a result, your empire has been reduced to... well, you know. Giving you the chance to act on it... shove it nr.3. Cyani 26.07.2006
And the treaties that followed WWI gave Transylvania to Romania. This had more to do with economics and political bullshit than it did to ethnicity. You and I both know that. So you can shove it sideways. 08/18/06
Not that it matters much regarding the article, but I'm always amazed by how some people can identify themselves with people that lived literally thousands of years ago - even if they are their descendants (which cannot be proven anyway over a time span as vast as this). "We were here first" is the most ridiculous argument used on all sides of any ethnic conflict - the point is only to prove that "we" are right and "they" are not, and thus prevent the scenario where somehow all the people living in a region could be peaceful and content with their lives (surprise: it is possible). Shame, shame, shame.
K
issL
15:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm not ashamed, I would be if I would be you and I had absolutely nothing to base claims on, I have things like the language I speak or my people's customs, a history that stretches for millenia, ancestors that Herodot and Trajan's column speak of, even to this day. So to question if I was here or not is a matter I would deal with STFU if I was you. "Thousands of years" seems such a long time for you indeed, but still you trumpet your 1000 like it was "the time of all times", but we just as we are now we claim 2000, and there are words in my language older than 3000 years, but I'm frankly surprised you stopped claiming that U we're here first, like some of you used to, or that u found NO ONE when showing up here, now THAT is hard to believe and ridiculous. So tell u what: STOP DREAMING, as long as we will draw breath, we will be here laying claims u can't match, in our most sacred and ancient land, and we asked nothing of you, for we don't need NOTHING FROM YOU, and you've taken so much from us... so guess what, we have learned, peace is for the weak, we gained nothing but trouble from peace and "happy" coexistence. So take my advice: be humble, be wise..... and IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING, JUST LOOK WHERE YOU COME FROM. Cyani 26.07.2006
You? Tollerant? This makes me sick. And get your facts right, Transylvania was an independent principality more than it was part of Hungary, which of course was not Hungary, but Austro-Hungary. Cyani 10.08.2006
Sapienti sat. K issL 16:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Glad to see them.... and your point is...? Cyani 10.08.2006
My point was "Sapienti sat". I'm afraid I can't put it any clearer. K issL 10:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Two variants of Turkish names, including the one I've just removed, are listed at the link for "other languages". That link was put in place a few months back by consensus among the editors then active - the names that are historically the most relevant are already listed, we shouldn't clutter up the lead any more. K issL 13:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there a map of transylvania that can be used for this article?-- Scott3 12:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Dahn deleted this: ==Transylvania in the future== - - In the hungarian community a lot of people is considering that the independency of Transylvnia would solve the hungarian-romanian conflict.(This disguised conflict, which is a shoal for the future, because the hungarian problems are not emerege.) Some of hungarians think that Transylvania need to be an autonom republic, because a lot of money is taken from Transylnia, but there are romanians too, who belives in autonomy of Transylvania. There are a lot of parties who have some plans about this. Example: Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania(Uniunea Democrată Maghiară din România), Christian Democratic Party(Partidul Creştin Democrat), Hungarian Civic Alliance (Uniunii Civice a Maghiare).
I don't now why did you delete all this section? There are a lot of true things... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.146.75.26 ( talk • contribs)
Given the lack of proof of notability (not to mention the poor English), Dahn was absolutely right to delete the paragraph. I've never heard of efforts towards the autonomy of Transylvania as a whole; I've only heard of this (which is in the right place, clear, and perfectly sufficient, in my opinion). K issL 09:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The text of the map with light yellow/dark yellow needs to be clearer. I saw that KIDB almost fully deleted the text I added. But where did those regions came from? Didn they come from the Austrian Empire?
And isn't the light yellow part the hystorical principality of Transylvania? Dpotop 12:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
i would like to edit the article Transylvania in an objective way. I will express my POV hoping to establish a convention that will allow consequent changes on every article where Transylvania is reffered to. these are my POVs about Transylvania:
1.)Transylvania was a principality and a province. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
2.)Today, Transylvania as a legal entity (administrative division) doesnt exist.. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
3.)Romanians, Magyars, Germans, Czechs and Slovaks and others citizens of Romania dont have Transylvania written in their ID paper as an identifyiable address, but Counties of Romania (eg. "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova County, Romania", not "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, in Wallachia, Romania" nor "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania". In historical context, a population lived in Transylvania (eg " Michael the Brave was born in Wallachia") Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
4.)The address of a locality in Romanian documents is given by county not by historical region (eg. "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Romania" not "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania" nor "city Ploiesti, Wallachia, Romania"). In historical or touristical or additional information paragraphs, a locality is, or was situated in Transylvania. (eg, "city Ploiesti is situated in Wallachia, and it was founded during the reign of Michael the Brave"), but not in the lead paragraph Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Targu Mures is the capital of Mures County, in central Romania
Geography
The city lies in the valley of Mures river in the Transylvanian Plateau at the base of the Eastern Carpathians etc.
History
First mentioned in historic documents as Marosvasarhely by the magyars [...] a city of Transylvania, a city of Habsburg empire [...] a city of Hungarian kingdom
Population
Mures county has a population ... etc. Ehnic Hungarians reffer to it as Maros. etc.
Mures (in romanian; Maros in hungarian;) is a river in south-central Europe, rising in Romania (etc.) and flowing into Tisza in Hungary. this means Romania and Hungary share authority over Mures river.
Targu Mures (romanian; Marosvasarhely in hungarian) is a city in Mures county in central Romania. i am not entirely sure about the convention in this case, i supose it is "Marosvasarhely appears in documents of recent history, and is kept as legacy name
Mures county is situated in north-central Romania, area ... capital Targu Mures. this means Mures county is solely administrated by Romania.
as u can see Britannica doesnt mention Transylvania region in the lead paragraph of not even one of the 3 articles. it gives information about Transylvania in the history section, or cultural section, if such "transylvanian culture" exists. Criztu 12:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
5.)A County of Romania has precedence/preemption over Transylvania in articles that refer to the teritory of today Romania, that was once the teritory of Transylvania. where the employment of a County of Romania is impossible Transylvania will be used (i cant find such situation to exemplify) Criztu 16:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
6.)Romanians from Transylvania proclaimed Union of Transylvania with Romania in 1918
7.)Consult the definition of Annexation before connecting Annexation with Trianon and Transylvania
8.) Michael the Brave brought Transylvania and Wallachia and Moldavia under his authority in 1599-1601.
9.)Transylvania was administrated by Hungary year-year.
10.)Transylvania is a historic region of Romania
11.)Romanian editors might not be aware of the history of Transylvania out of Romanian history, and Hungarian editors might not be aware of the history of Transylvania out of Hungarian history
I would add a 12: Banat is a historical region on its own and not part of Transylvania-- Radufan 21:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think every bit of Transylvania article should be discussed so that any missconceptions be cleared.
My goal in editing the below lead paragraph was to mention all significant stages of Transylvania. It was an independent state that was brought under authority of Kgdom of Hungary in ~1000. It was an autonomous province during Janos Hunyadi in ~1450. next an (autonomous?) province of kgdom of Hungary during Mathias Corvin. next a principality vassal to the Otoman Empire until 1600 when it was brought by Michael the brave under his authority. then regained independency, then brought under Habsburg authority, then under Austria-Hungary, then Romanians proclaimed union with Romania in 1918, then Treaty of Trianon ratified the union in 1920.
Transylvania (Romanian: Ardeal or Transilvania; Hungarian: Erdély; German: Siebenbürgen (help·info)) is a historical region in the center of Romania. Transylvania was an independent Principality, and a Province of the Kingdom of Hungary and of the Habsburg Monarchy since Middle Ages, with a period of vassalage to the Ottoman Empire and a brief year under the authority of Wallachian ruler Michael the Brave until the end of World War I in 1918, when the Romanian National Party from Transylvania proclaimed union of Transylvania with Kingdom of Romania. The political union was ratified in the Treaty of Trianon in 1920.
if i wrote something that might be seen as NPOV, (i can say i am not the best in formulating things perfectly), please address the matter. If we discuss the misunderstandings and weaknesses of this article, it will clear things out Criztu 09:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not simply an effort to replicate Britannica. If you sample three or four decent encyclopedias (in English, besides Britannica, I'd mention the late lamented Collier's and Americana) that carries more weight. But still, we have to make our own editorial decisions. And I don't really think "Britannica has expertise, u dont" cuts it. Dahn has certainly shown himself to be knowledgable on the topic at hand. And I dare say that looking over and over to Britannica for guidance (or any other tertiary work, but especially the same one over and over) is not the mark of an expert. - Jmabel | Talk 06:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
"Another traditional division is the Hungarian (and Austro-Hungarian) administrative system" - this is NPOV
Tradition - 1.) A meme; custom or practice taught by one generation to another, often orally
I think traditional hungarian "divisions" would be "mezoseg, szekelyfold, nosnerland etc.". Since Administrative divisions of Hungary are something that imply "a state authority" (just like Counties of Romania are divisions of Romania) these "administrative divisions" belong the history paragraphs. where Hungary exercised authority over Transylvania, link to Administrative divisions of Hungary is provided. where Romania exercised authoriy over Transylvania, link to Counties of Romania is provided. You dont see romanians rushing to put a text in the lead "traditional divisions of Transilvania see Counties of Romania". i understand a hungarian editor may be suspicious about the intentions of a romanian editor of Transylvania. I hope u will understand that providing information about "administration of Hungary" in the lead paragraph would consequently motivate romanians to put information about "administration of ROmania" in the lead paragraph, and the lead paragraph soon becomes an article itself Criztu 09:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
the below text is from Britannica concise. I use Britannica as an expert guide, recognised by Wikipedia. Criztu 11:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Transylvania Britannica Concise
Historic region, northwestern and central Romania.
It comprises a plateau surrounded by the Carpathian Mountains and the Transylvanian Alps. It formed the nucleus of the Dacian kingdom and was included in the Roman province of Dacia in the 2nd century AD. The Magyars (Hungarians) conquered the area at the end of the 9th century. When Hungary was divided between the Habsburgs and the Turks in the 16th century, Transylvania became an autonomous principality within the Ottoman Empire. It was attached to Habsburg-controlled Hungary at the end of the 17th century. Transylvania was the scene of severe fighting in the Hungarian revolution against Austria in 1848. When Austria-Hungary was defeated in World War I, the Romanians of Transylvania proclaimed the land united with Romania. Hungary regained the northern portion during World War II, but the entire region was ceded to Romania in 1947
I see the below formulation as NPOV, pointing successive significant moments for both romanians and hungarians. Criztu 13:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
"Transylvania an independent state in the 9th century, became part of kgdom of Hungary in 11th century, became Principality under Otoman suzeraity in the 15th, briefly united with Wallachia and Moldova in 1600, autonomous province of the Habsburg empire until 19th when became province of kgdom of Hungary again (u add brief info about a proclamation of union by hungarians), until WW 1 when became part of Romania (i add brief info about proclamation of union with romania) ratified by Treaty of Trianon (u add info on how it was taken from HU, i add info on how it was ratification of union proclamation)."
And I quote:
Hungary undertakes to recognise the full force of the Treaties of Peace and additional conventions which have been or may be concluded by the Allied and Associated Powers with the Powers who fought on the side of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, and to recognise whatever dispositions have been or may be made concerning the territories of the former German Empire, of Austria, of the Kingdom of Bulgaria and of the Ottoman Empire, and to recognise the new States within their frontiers as there laid down.
Hungary hereby recognises and accepts the frontiers of Austria, Bulgaria, Greece, Poland, Roumania, the Serb-Croat-Slovene State and the Czecho-Slovak State as these frontiers may be determined by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers.
Hungary renounces, so far as she is concerned, in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title over the territories which previously belonged to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and which, being situated outside the new frontiers of Hungary as described in Article 27, Part II (Frontiers of Hungary), have not at present been otherwise disposed of.
Hungary undertakes to accept the settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in regard to these territories, particularly in so far as concerns the nationality of the inhabitants.
Hungary will hand over without delay to the Allied and Associated Governments concerned archives, registers, plans, titledeeds and documents of every kind belonging to the civil, military, financial, judicial or other forms of administration in the ceded territories. If any one of these documents, archives, registers, title-deeds or plans is missing, it shall be restored by Hungary upon the demand of the Allied or Associated Government concerned.
Key terms: "disposition", "frontiers as there laid down", "frontiers determined by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers", "renounces, in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title", "accept the settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers", "Hungary will hand over without delay to the Allied and Associated Governments". Dahn 16:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I guess a tag Disputed should be put to the article until we come to an agreement Criztu 11:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
what, u want to discuss what is legal and what not ? we are both lacking expertise. I choose Britannica formulation. It doesnt reflect all my opinions, but at least has expertise. Criztu 16:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
While I disagree with Critzu's proposed changes, I also disagree with Dahn's stance that the lead is good in its present form. As it stands, the lead is way too heavy on details, it appears to be leaning towards a Hungarian POV, and it fails its purpose as outlined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lead_section. To the point:
As far as the neutrality tag goes, I think it's warranted. It doesn't have to be Critzu against many, or Dahn against many; the fact that two equally competent editors think of each other as biased is more than enough justification. Dmaftei 18:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it is entirely appropriate to say we have a disagreement about NPOV, but the {{ disputed}} tag relates to something being factually wrong, and I haven't seen that be the case here except perhaps temporarily and accidentally. - Jmabel | Talk 06:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I requested mediation in reaching a consensus about Transylvania article at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 Transylvania article Criztu 14:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
This case is still listed as "open". Is further mediation required here or can I close the case? -- Ideogram 07:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Apart from Criztu, nobody ever thought mediation was required, and he hasn't been around since 14 August. This is why interest in the case just died down... I guess it's perfectly ok to close the case. (I thought you had, anyway.) K issL 08:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add a new paragraph about ethnology to make a clear distinction between Mezoseg and eg Partium. I will also add a map with the most important Romanian, Hungarian and Saxon ethnological regions. -- fz22 20:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
--
fz22 14:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanx :)--
fz22
14:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The most important Saxon regions are listed here: [4] [5] . These include: Nösnerland (Ţara Năsăudului, Naszód), Siebenbürgische Heide (Câmpia Transilvaniei, Mezöség), Zwischenkokelgebiet, Reener Ländchen (Zona Reghinului), Unterwald (around Sebeş, Antesilvana?), Hatzeger Land (Ţara Hategului), Altland (near Sibiu), Weinland (around Mediaş, Ţara Vinului), Fogarascher Land (Ţara Fâgârasului), Haferland (around and west of Rupea), the Burzenland (ara ŢBârsei, Barcaság), and Drei Stühle (Trei Scaune, Háromszék). Of these I would say that Burzenland, Nösnerland, Unterwald, and Altland were the most notable. This Romanian link also seems to list a number of alternate names, but I don't speak the language. Olessi 17:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Let's establish a guideline. First of all, the issue of Bukovina is moot (I myself do not see why it would be a Hungarian region - but what is relevant here is that it is not part of Transylvania). Also: the map need not and should not include regions that were political in nature (Hungarian or Austrian counties, Romanian counties - if these are present in the listings above, please remove them); the map need not present ethnic subgroups (especially since these are, like the Csangok, not really inside Transylvania - those that are inside Transylvania, as the link provided by Olessi reads, are covered by the name of the Gyimesek subregion). What this map should present: those regions that are defined solely by folk customs, cultural characteristics, and not reflected in any administrative grid (perhaps with the exception of Szekelyfold, which arguably fits the both main criterion and the administrative one). I also propose that this map and the projected header in text be a subheader of the Geography section). A minor point: if possible, regions bordering Transylvania or Transylvania-proper be featured under their most common name in English (i.e. "Banat", not "Banát"); if this last point and the one I made about Bukovina are controversial, we could drop those references altogether - "Banat" is not as much ethnographic as it is political in nature, and "Bukovina" is not part of Transylvania. Dahn 20:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, by the look of it, that map will need to be way larger (lest we flood it with letters). Dahn 20:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Romanian regions (with the proper diacritics): Maramureş - as indicated on the map; equivalent to Maramaros
Mărginimea Sibiului - between the northern limit of the Olt Gorge (east) and the Sebeş River (west)
Ţara Bârsei - as indicated on the map; equivalent to Burzenland
Ţara Haţegului - equivalent to Hatzeger Land
Ţara Mocanilor - south of Kalotaszeg, down to the River Ompoi (Hung. Ampoi), comprising the middle course of the Arieş (Aranyos).
Ţara Moţilor - as indicated on the map
Ţara Năsăudului - Nösnerland
Ţara Oaşului - as indicated on the map
Ţara Oltului (the same as "Ţara Făgăraşului", but a more proper term) - equivalent to Fogarascher Land; a narrow east-west oriented strip along the Olt, formed around Făgăraş and corresponding with the depression. Dahn 12:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This map is likely to meet another problem (I would call it "a minor one", but you never know whose sensibilities you touch): the matter of text placement and priorities on the map. I propose the following pattern (bear with me):
or
or any such indentation.
(where all three names confined within the limits of the area defined under step 1)
This could, of course, be further made clear by the use of different curvatures and/or angles for all name variants. However I suggest that the curves and angle degrees themselves should not vary, since this could confuse the reader and lead him/her to believe that the lettering would indicate three different regions, and not three different names for the same one. Example:
and not
Since all three names may be argued to be of equal importance, the editor may want to simply randomize their selection. Ideally, this should tend towards having an number of regions where "name 1" is Hungarian equal with the number of regions where "name 1" is Romanian and regions where "name 1" is Saxon. This pattern could also be extended to regions where two names are available.
Does this make sense? Tell me your opinions. Dahn 21:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor who has repeatedly replaced the section about "Transylvania as part of Romania" like this: don't. It's nothing like conforming to the standards of Wikipedia, most notably NPOV; it is a violation of the copyrights of this site; and it is bad form anyway to deliberately avoid discussion and try forcing something into the article. (And, by the way, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of remaining in the article for over a few hours, since anyone watching this article will revert this kind of edit on sight.) K issL 14:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The introduction part: "Initially part of the Kingdom of Hungary". Well, was it Transylvania initially part of the Dacian state? History does not begin in 1000 AD. :) PANONIAN (talk) 11:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The relevant part of the above debate:
Dahn 12:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is Transylvania, not History of Transylvania. Presumably someone coming here wants a mainly geographically and culturally oriented article. A lot of what has been debated here is probably more relevant to the other article. We need an overview of the history here, certainly one that indicates that there are competing narratives and certainly one that gives an indication of why the term Transylvania can designate several overlapping but not identical regions, but I would hope that the focus of the article can be more on the place as it is today or has been in living memory, and push the details of the history to History of Transylvania. The history section has come to be half of the article, pretty silly when we have a separate History of Transylvania article. - Jmabel | Talk 06:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this version has a lead section that is pretty much OK. It would maybe be useful if those who agree would list their names here, and those who disagree would explain why. K issL 10:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I strongly support Critzu's fight against hungarian irredentism. -- 211.237.95.101 12:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
For Criztu's claim to follow guidelines, please read the lead sections in articles such as England, Ireland, Bangladesh (featured), Belgium (featured), etc. and tell me how you think they can possibly sanction Criztu's "guidelines". For those who want to see what is disputed and disputable about Criztu's historical perspective, let them look into the long discussion above and that on the mediation page opened by Criztu at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 Transylvania article. (I cannot possibly be demanded to spell out my reasons for the third time around, and I kindly ask anybody wanting to form an opinion about this to check points made on those places.)
Changes were proposed to move part of the present lead into the geography section, and expand the latter to cover ethnology, thus making the arrangement of subregions more specific and clear. I endorse these changes, and I reject all interventions in the text made by Criztu - as biased, casual, irrelevant to the lead section and, let's not forget, ungrammatical. Dahn 10:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
See Bratianu's speech to the Chamber after the Paris Treaty, where he complains about the refusal of the Entente to accept Romania as an ally and to sanction the 1916 guarantees.
See also the National Party's demands from the new constitutional regime and the National Party's conflict with the Liberals some time after Averescu dissolved the Alba Iulia Council with brutal force, with mention of how neither the Assembly nor Wilsonian principles had been passed into the new constitution (whereas the Assembly had required that the conditions it specified for the teritory to join Romania, at a time always described as in the future, be the basis for organic laws).
See Stevan K. Pavlowitch's History of the Balkans, Chapter 10 (p.214-215 in my Ro edition, Polirom): about the Treaty being the sole agreement concerning Transylvania, with the elloquent accent on the Romanian occupation ("[the Treaty] left Hungary with a third of its pre-war territory"; "Romania was the winner, In the spring of 1919, its troops had entered Hungarian territ. to demand their rights"; "[in Paris], the Allies considered themselves free from their obligations"; "Bratianu refused all compromise" (my underlining), after the gvt change, Romania accepted provisions regarding minorities (p. 215). What does this tell us about the Romania's statute in 1919 Transylvania? THAT IT WAS VOID until the signing of the Treaty, and that it was centered on unsanctioned occupation! Let me also add that there is no mention of the assembly as legal vehicle for the change in sovereignty.
I have more sources to back this up, but I wish others would simply do some investigation of his/her own in what is common sense data freely or cheaply available out there. Note that the facts (pure facts, gentlemen) do not do anything to increase the amount of justice in exaggerated Hungarian claims. They are to be used for what they are, regardless of not going out of their way to flatter the distorted, if commonplace, Romanian perspective. Dahn 17:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Without getting into the bulk of this: Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians (especially when viewed from a nationalist perspective), but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania, and certainly does not belong in the lead paragraph of this article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I will copy here the message left on my talk page by the person mediating between me and Criztu. This constitutes a provisional answer, but no one has taken up mediation after that.
"Unfortunately, I am going to be taking a wikibreak soon and will not be able to continue the mediation any further. My attempts to get another mediator to take over have failed, and you may have to find some one else to finish it. However, I can make these remarks on the topic abstractedly:
Hope that helps you. -- BarryC (talk) Uncyc 15:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)"
The message was posted by BarryC on Criztu's talk page as well. The changes he made in the text with knowledge of this verdict, the repeated allegation that, otherwise, the text "cannot be NPOV", show, IMO, that Criztu isn't just imposing views that are not sanctioned by anybody else, but that he is moving towards overt vandalism. Dahn 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand that a lot of Criztu's edits may have been anti-Hungarian, but why was the reference to Michael the Brave removed from the lead paragraph? Even though this union lasted for a very short time, it is still relevant and significant to the Romanian history of Transylvania, which is significant to Transylvania in general considering, particularly considering that Romanians are a significant ethnic group in Transylvania (in fact, the majority). The lead paragraph mentions how Transylvania was part of Hungary and Austria-Hungary, and that's all good and well, but if that's going to be mentioned, I think the Michael the Brave episode - which only takes up a few words - should also be mentioned, since it marks the first union of Transylvania with the rest of the majority-Romanian territories.
Ronline
✉
03:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel has said it all above: "Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians, but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania". Having a Hungarian bias, I am also worried that including a sentence about him in the lead would suggest "Transylvania always had a Romanian majority" to the reader, which is controversial, thus at best OR, and at worst factually wrong. K issL 10:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
lt;---------- Since several people have had no hesitancy to repeat themselves in this discussion, I am going to (literally) repeat myself: "Michael the Brave's brief uniting of Transylvania with Moldavia and Wallachia may form an interesting part of the history of Romania and of the Romanians, but it is a relatively minor episode in the history of Transylvania." We "should not… write history backwards." - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The lead section is too LARGE. I would suggest moving much of its content (about regions of Transylvania) to "geography" section. Opinions? PANONIAN (talk) 21:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I am putting everyone on notice: if people continue on this page to say things like "shove it" and "shove it sideways" and other comparably uncivil things in addressing one another, I will feel free to block the offender for a week, without regard to political views or to whether "Johnny said it first." Losing your temper once in a while can happen to anyone, but this has become an unacceptable pattern. - Jmabel | Talk 19:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the following article carefully in order to understand the real world-wide recognised history : - As somebody else said, the "nation of Transylvania" DOES NOT EXIST, it is pure ROMANIA and Romanians! Therefore, we will tell some real history here. Within the chronicles of Herodotus , one may find that he described the Dacians(Getae) as the nation living within the present Romanian and Moldavian territory, including the part that is called Transylvania today, which means “beyond the forests”, after the Latin definition given by Romans and which consisted of the Carpathian Mountains and the Pannonian Plains. A more accountable map can be found here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Dacia_82_BC.png .. Therefore, the nation living there consisted of dacians, which were known as Geton (plural Getae) in Greek writings, and as Dacus (plural Daci) and Getae in Roman documents. The dacians were conquered, after great efforts, by the Romans and Dacia was transformed into a Roman Province. Following, it was a period of Romanization, period when the main Romanian people rose. As an answer to the Magyar origin, the history says that their starting point within the actual Hungary is related to the invasion of the Mongols ruled by Genghis Han and the Huns ruled by Attila within the European territory. After their settlement within the Pannonian Plains, the Hungarian people emerged, by mixing with the local populations. As a clear conclusion, one may say that nobody can contradict the written past or the great historians in terms of the origin of Dacians and the territory within they lived, called today Transilvania/Transylvania. The truth that has to be admitted is that Dacians/Getae were here as a nation BEFORE the Hungarian people came over and rose as a nationality. Moreover, NEITHER the Mongols and Huns NOR the actual Hungarians WERE here BEFORE the Romanization of Dacians, therefore they were not present before the emerging stage of the Romanian people. International history admits that the Hungarians appeared within today’s Hungary territory around the 9th century A.C. (according to Britannica) as an immigrating people coming from the actual Tibet region/Mongolia. After settlement they conquered Transilvania and nowadays they fabricate they were first to live on this land. Bear in mind that Romanians will never stop claiming their internationally admitted origin, dating from Daco-Romans times and they will never stop viewing Trasilvania as their own home! If the Hungarians want to live without conflicts, they should stop claiming what does not belong to them, the Transylvania land. PEACE! —The preceding Sign your posts on talk pages comment was added by Cabbynet ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 1 October 2006.
Please cite your sources about the assimilation of the minorities of Transylvania during the Ceausescu regime.
About the migration of the minorities from Transylvania to Bucharest: I'm removing this part, as I reckon there are much much more Romanians who migrated to Bucharest than Hungarians (or whatever minority). You can't say that the percent of Hungarians in Transylvania diminished because they came to Bucharest. -- Disconnect 6 17:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the exodus of the Saxons qualifies as "forced assimilation policy". Actually, Romanians themselves leave even today due to the poor living conditions. Many would have left at the time, too, if only they were allowed to. :) Uniform economic causes do not make for "forced assimilation". It's more like "economic migration exploited by the Communist regime". Dpotop 13:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Hungarians, I have no information except the census data. However, when making such a statement one should cite some source. Dpotop 13:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Finally, if you mix "forced assimilation" with "voluntary assimilation", you should make sure there is no confusion. Dpotop 13:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice some problems with the external links on the Transylvania page. The first link called 'Transylvania Tourism" leads to the Transylvanian Webcatalogue in Hungarian language, little to do with Transylvanian Tourism. The next one is called 'Cycling in Transylvania' which is very nice, but not only it hasn't been updated since 2001, it also represents a commercial biking holiday company.
I propose to re-name the first link as Transylvanian Webcatalogue and delete the second one.
I myself tried to add the links www.kalnoky.org (Built Heritage Preservation in Transylvania) and www.transylvaniancastle.com (Heritage Tourism in Transylvania) as I believe it could be of general interest to those who want to know more about genuine Transylvania, but the link got immediately erased as spam. If the cycling link is accepted, I don't see why links on Transylvanian Heritage get deleted. Gingko1 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Gingko1 Gingko1 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any strong opinons about the subject myself. i was waiting for other users to weigh in. You can introduce the changes as you best see fit yoursef - I don't think anyone would object to renaming and reordering links, but your link may get reverted again. Dahn 11:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'd get deleted immediately. We have enough problems out here to make understand the authorities and locals that built and natural heritage needs to be preserved and can actually become an important asset for rural development. Thanks god, our foreign guests appreciate what we are doing and support our efforts. Gingko1 08:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Gingko1 Gingko1 08:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the Romanian Academy and the Hungarian Academy decided to collaborate on a common version of the history of Transylvania. It's an important development, so it should figure in the article. But where? Here is the link [6]. Dpotop 11:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do we say Transylvania is "in the centre of Romania"? I suppose the centre of Romania is in Transylvania, but clearly Transylvania, especially in the broad definition used here, constitutes the northwest of the country as well. - Jmabel | Talk 03:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if the point was considered settled but that's far from being the case. The Banat region is no part of Transilvania. A good analyse of the improper inclusion of Banat in Transilvania can be found here: (in romanian) Apartine Banatul de Transilvania? Nu! by banatian historian Sorin Fortiu. I added a "citation needed" tag at the beginning. It follows that all references to the counties and the cities of Banat are also false. -- Radufan 20:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)