![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"...ergative verbs refer to events that take place within or are directed towards the verb's subject - that is, the instrument of the verb is the subject. The verb "sees" in the second example is one such verb, as are "to think" and "to believe"..... The normal type of verb indicates that an action is exercised against the verb's subject; these verbs often require an object in order to be grammatical. "Lifted" above is one example of such a verb;
I'm not sure I get the distinction between ergative and normal verbs from the definitions above. Surely an indication that events "take place within or are directed towards the verb's subject" is the same as an indication that "action is exercised against the verb's subject"? - dan
The article only describes facts of English language and may lead one into error. The notion of transitivity has nothing to do with the number of objects in many grammars (other than English).
I have added some info on Polish then.
-- Grzegorj 11:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
(Vandalism deleted) Arrivisto ( talk) 13:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
It has been proposed, that article Transitivity (grammatical category) should be merged into here.
Sorry for my having created Transitivity (grammatical category), I have committed it before seeing that Transitive verb really covers the topic, thus a distinct Transitivity (grammatical category) article may seem superfluous.
I committed Transitivity (grammatical category) out of logical reasons: it seemed for me necessary to have a distinct article for the grammatical category itself, which stands (in a Platonic or logical or OOP sense) above its “instances” ( transitive verb, intransitive verb).
I saw that almost each grammatical category does have its own artice: polarity, voice etc. Here, especially the “binary” categories are interesing for us ( polarity and definiteness): even they have their own category, and are not merged into their “positive instance”. Really, in the case of transitivity, we cannot deal with any natural “positive instance”.
I thought that broader terms have to redirect (merge) to narrower ones (and not vice versa), on the example of middle voice: it is redirected to grammatical voice. In future, maybe a distinct middle voice article will become necessary (e.g. as more and more examples and materials are written). In fact, initating Transitivity (grammatical category) looked like a good idea for me while my enlarging the Sirenik language article.
Sorry again for having created Transitivity (grammatical category) maybe in an inconsiderate way. But is it sure that it will not be important in the future?
Maybe another reason for the distinct article: “Transitive verb” may suggest a property of a (specific) verb, but “Transitivity (grammatical category)” stressses that it can be a morphological feature in some languages, thus, property of the language itself. An analogous emphasis can be read in the lead text of the Polypersonal agreement article.
Physis 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Removing tag 71.167.35.48 03:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Surely that is quite a major feature of transative verbs in English and thus should be mentioned? Eg. for "eat", you can say "The apple is eaten", meaning the act of eating (a transative verb) has been carried out on the apple. This obviously isn't the case for verbs that aren't transative - "He is slept" doesn't make sense for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.201.117 ( talk) 22:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
"He is slept" makes perfect sense in a fantasy role-playing game, where "someone slept him" occurs frequently. 67.164.44.83 ( talk) 04:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The article claims that "you can't sleep something" and therefore "sleep" can't be used as a transitive verb. Perhaps my correction was not phrased in some way more acceptable to nit-pickers, but the fact remains that "sleep" is certainly a transitive verb, because in many many role-playing games, the characters in the game frequently sleep something. For example: "Ok, here's the plan," the magic-user said, "We break in the door, I'll sleep the kobolds, and the rest of you take out the ogre." Accordingly, I have reverted the edit that removed my correction, and anyone who wants to delete it again can reword it instead, or I'll just put it back again. 67.164.44.83 ( talk) 03:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
apparently you did an amount of work but, once merged people working on grammatical problems will be redirected. Defector1234 ( talk) 01:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Should the second 'tried' in this be changed to 'tried on'? "I tried on the shoes. ("shoes" is an object of "tried")" Otherwise the object wouldn't be needed?
202.29.57.211 ( talk) 23:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a contradiction between the first phrase : "In syntax, a transitive verb is a verb that requires both a subject and one or more objects." (which is wrong) and the first phrase of the article (which is true) : "While all verbs that take at least one object are considered transitive,". The first one is more restrictive, because the second one doesn't say these verbs must have a subject.
And there are indeed verbs that are transitive but have no subject (= impersonal verb) : in Latin, "me (object) pudet (impersonal verb) alicuius", "there is shame in me of something", "I am ashamed of something". -- Fsojic ( talk) 22:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"...ergative verbs refer to events that take place within or are directed towards the verb's subject - that is, the instrument of the verb is the subject. The verb "sees" in the second example is one such verb, as are "to think" and "to believe"..... The normal type of verb indicates that an action is exercised against the verb's subject; these verbs often require an object in order to be grammatical. "Lifted" above is one example of such a verb;
I'm not sure I get the distinction between ergative and normal verbs from the definitions above. Surely an indication that events "take place within or are directed towards the verb's subject" is the same as an indication that "action is exercised against the verb's subject"? - dan
The article only describes facts of English language and may lead one into error. The notion of transitivity has nothing to do with the number of objects in many grammars (other than English).
I have added some info on Polish then.
-- Grzegorj 11:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
(Vandalism deleted) Arrivisto ( talk) 13:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
It has been proposed, that article Transitivity (grammatical category) should be merged into here.
Sorry for my having created Transitivity (grammatical category), I have committed it before seeing that Transitive verb really covers the topic, thus a distinct Transitivity (grammatical category) article may seem superfluous.
I committed Transitivity (grammatical category) out of logical reasons: it seemed for me necessary to have a distinct article for the grammatical category itself, which stands (in a Platonic or logical or OOP sense) above its “instances” ( transitive verb, intransitive verb).
I saw that almost each grammatical category does have its own artice: polarity, voice etc. Here, especially the “binary” categories are interesing for us ( polarity and definiteness): even they have their own category, and are not merged into their “positive instance”. Really, in the case of transitivity, we cannot deal with any natural “positive instance”.
I thought that broader terms have to redirect (merge) to narrower ones (and not vice versa), on the example of middle voice: it is redirected to grammatical voice. In future, maybe a distinct middle voice article will become necessary (e.g. as more and more examples and materials are written). In fact, initating Transitivity (grammatical category) looked like a good idea for me while my enlarging the Sirenik language article.
Sorry again for having created Transitivity (grammatical category) maybe in an inconsiderate way. But is it sure that it will not be important in the future?
Maybe another reason for the distinct article: “Transitive verb” may suggest a property of a (specific) verb, but “Transitivity (grammatical category)” stressses that it can be a morphological feature in some languages, thus, property of the language itself. An analogous emphasis can be read in the lead text of the Polypersonal agreement article.
Physis 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Removing tag 71.167.35.48 03:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Surely that is quite a major feature of transative verbs in English and thus should be mentioned? Eg. for "eat", you can say "The apple is eaten", meaning the act of eating (a transative verb) has been carried out on the apple. This obviously isn't the case for verbs that aren't transative - "He is slept" doesn't make sense for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.201.117 ( talk) 22:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
"He is slept" makes perfect sense in a fantasy role-playing game, where "someone slept him" occurs frequently. 67.164.44.83 ( talk) 04:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The article claims that "you can't sleep something" and therefore "sleep" can't be used as a transitive verb. Perhaps my correction was not phrased in some way more acceptable to nit-pickers, but the fact remains that "sleep" is certainly a transitive verb, because in many many role-playing games, the characters in the game frequently sleep something. For example: "Ok, here's the plan," the magic-user said, "We break in the door, I'll sleep the kobolds, and the rest of you take out the ogre." Accordingly, I have reverted the edit that removed my correction, and anyone who wants to delete it again can reword it instead, or I'll just put it back again. 67.164.44.83 ( talk) 03:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
apparently you did an amount of work but, once merged people working on grammatical problems will be redirected. Defector1234 ( talk) 01:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Should the second 'tried' in this be changed to 'tried on'? "I tried on the shoes. ("shoes" is an object of "tried")" Otherwise the object wouldn't be needed?
202.29.57.211 ( talk) 23:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a contradiction between the first phrase : "In syntax, a transitive verb is a verb that requires both a subject and one or more objects." (which is wrong) and the first phrase of the article (which is true) : "While all verbs that take at least one object are considered transitive,". The first one is more restrictive, because the second one doesn't say these verbs must have a subject.
And there are indeed verbs that are transitive but have no subject (= impersonal verb) : in Latin, "me (object) pudet (impersonal verb) alicuius", "there is shame in me of something", "I am ashamed of something". -- Fsojic ( talk) 22:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |