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All other war articles do not group sections by topic but rather put events chronologically in the year they happened after events progressed.
I propose that these sections like marriage and composition of the army be split up and mixed with the other material amready in the article. There would be no marriage section or rape section but things will be put in order the year they happened. If there was a marriage after a battle it is mentioned after the battle. If there was raping of kidnapped women it is mentioned after the battle and who fought and won the battle.
A third party user should actually do the edits.
This is only a preliminary example but the sections would look like these. Opasney ( talk) 17:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
-Nurhaci's invasion of Liaodong-
In 1618 Han General Li Yongfang surrenders Fushun after an offer from Nurhaci and is married to Nurhaci's granddaughter and he and his soldiers are placed in the Banners.
Nurhaci conducts marriage alliances with the Khorchin Mongols. Khorchin Mongols are put into the Banners.
In 1626 Nurhaci dies after the battle of Ningyuan.
-Hong Taiji's campaigns-
In 1627 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
Han artillerymen defect to Hongtaiji and bring their cannons to the Later Jin and are placed in the Banners.
In 1631 Hong Taiji won the Battle of Dalinghe against Ming forts with the help of Han Banner artillery. Han Bannermen are called ujen coohai because of the battle.
In 1632 after Dalinghe Prince Yoto proposes marriage of defected Ming officials to daughters of Later Jin Beile and ministers and defected Ming soldiers to Han widows. Hong Taiji orders 1,000 women married to defectors.
In 1633 Han Generals Kong Youde, Geng Zhongming and their soldiers defect to the Qing and are put in the Banners. Shang Kexi defects to the Qing and is placed in the Banners. Shang Kexi and Geng Zhongming's sons are married to Aisin Gioro princesses.
In 1635 Chahar Mongol Ligdan Khan is defeated and dies. Ligdan Khan's son Ejei is married to an Aisin Gioro princess
In 1636 Hong Taiji declares the Qing dynasty and creates three seperate ethnic Eight Banners, Manchu, Mongol and Hanjun.
In 1636 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
People were captured when Pi island was raided.
-Dorgon's invasion of the Ming after Shanhai pass-
In 1644 Li Zicheng overthrew the Ming and takes the capital Beijing.
Wu Sangui defects to the Qing at Shanhai pass. His son Wu Yingxiong is married to an Aisin Gioro princess Princess Jianning. They are put into the Eight Banners. Wu Sangui and Dorgon defeat Li Zicheng and women get raped.
Most former Ming officials and soldiers in northern China defect to the Qing.
-Conquest of the southern Ming-
The second capital Nanjing is mostly peacefully taken after capitulating.
In 1645 Yangzhou is sacked for refusing to surrender after Han banner cannons bring down its walls and its people get massacred and women get kidnapped and raped by Han Banner and Manchu bannermen.
Haoge's archer assassinates Zhang Xianzhong in Sichuan who had 10 men with him after a defector Liu Jinzhong leads Haoge straight to his camp. Haoge leaves a defected Ming official and Green Standard Army soldiers to pacify Sichuan.
In 1648 a report to the Qing emperor states that 75% of the Eight Banners are Han.
Han Banner Generals like Kong Youde and Shang Kexi lead the conquest of southern China from southern Ming loyalists. Most of the soldiers in the armies which conquer southern Ming are Han with small Manchu detachments in the rear only used in battle if they are losing the battle.
Han Bannerman Meng Qiaofang conquers Gansu from Mi Layin and Ding Guodong.
In 1650 Han Banner general Shang Kexi leads mostly Han Bannermen to sack and massacre the people of Guangzhou after defeating Ming loyalists.
In 1662 Wu Sangui executes the Yongli Emperor after conquering Yunnan.
-Three Feudatories-
Three feudatories led by Wu Sangui, Shang Zhixin and Geng Jingzhong revolt. Most Han Green Standard army and Han Bannermen stay loyal to the Qing
Chahar Mongols led by Ligdan Khan's great grandsons revolt. Most other Mongols stay loyal to the Qing.
The Qing mobilize mostly 400,000 Han Green Standard Army, and smaller numbers of Han bannermen and Manchu bannermen to defeat the three feudatories. Rape of captured women happens.
Han Banner garrisons across important provincial cities like Guangzhou, Fuzhou and Zhenjiang are established.
-Post war-
In 1735 Qianlong demobilizes the Han Bannermen in the provincial garrisons in Guangzhou, Fuzhou, Zhenjiang and replaced them with Manchu bannermen. Han Bannermen in Beijing and Liaodong are exempted from demobilization.
Your above materials were still subjective, and you literally removed all my contributions and the part of bride taking. I have reiterated multiple times the difference between raping and bride taking, and you do not seem to have listened. I tried to have a normal discussion but all you just did is to revert my contributions and insert your own in another way. Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Also about Shunzhi Emperor's policy: the current description of the policy wrongly gives only part of the original policy. Their was not a sexual duality applied to officers and Manchu males can marry the Han Chinese women related to an officer freely. It also does not restrict the marriage between Manchu men and civilian Han women. This part should be added to complete the policy. Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:44, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a historical book the records things chronically. What you did also bewilders the contributions from other editors and did not describe events in a logical and informative way, and failed to show the whole event in a way that is easy to understand. There are obviously many parts above highly improper:
Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Opasney ( talk) 23:36, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I do not see the usage of the statements above. They have not been verified aside, I do not see how they might affect the conclusions I draw. I will, once again, make clear about the changes I want to make:
@ Opasney: This discussion got a little bit derailed, do you want to start it back up and describe how you propose to re-order information? Simonm223 ( talk) 15:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
All other war articles do not group sections by topic but rather put events chronologically in the year they happened after events progressed.
I propose that these sections like marriage and composition of the army be split up and mixed with the other material amready in the article. There would be no marriage section or rape section but things will be put in order the year they happened. If there was a marriage after a battle it is mentioned after the battle. If there was raping of kidnapped women it is mentioned after the battle and who fought and won the battle.
A third party user should actually do the edits.
This is only a preliminary example but the sections would look like these. Opasney ( talk) 17:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
-Nurhaci's invasion of Liaodong-
In 1618 Han General Li Yongfang surrenders Fushun after an offer from Nurhaci and is married to Nurhaci's granddaughter and he and his soldiers are placed in the Banners.
Nurhaci conducts marriage alliances with the Khorchin Mongols. Khorchin Mongols are put into the Banners.
In 1626 Nurhaci dies after the battle of Ningyuan.
-Hong Taiji's campaigns-
In 1627 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
Han artillerymen defect to Hongtaiji and bring their cannons to the Later Jin and are placed in the Banners.
In 1631 Hong Taiji won the Battle of Dalinghe against Ming forts with the help of Han Banner artillery. Han Bannermen are called ujen coohai because of the battle.
In 1632 after Dalinghe Prince Yoto proposes marriage of defected Ming officials to daughters of Later Jin Beile and ministers and defected Ming soldiers to Han widows. Hong Taiji orders 1,000 women married to defectors.
In 1633 Han Generals Kong Youde, Geng Zhongming and their soldiers defect to the Qing and are put in the Banners. Shang Kexi defects to the Qing and is placed in the Banners. Shang Kexi and Geng Zhongming's sons are married to Aisin Gioro princesses.
In 1635 Chahar Mongol Ligdan Khan is defeated and dies. Ligdan Khan's son Ejei is married to an Aisin Gioro princess
In 1636 Hong Taiji declares the Qing dynasty and creates three seperate ethnic Eight Banners, Manchu, Mongol and Hanjun.
In 1636 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
People were captured when Pi island was raided.
-Dorgon's invasion of the Ming after Shanhai pass-
In 1644 Li Zicheng overthrew the Ming and takes the capital Beijing.
Wu Sangui defects to the Qing at Shanhai pass. His son Wu Yingxiong is married to an Aisin Gioro princess Princess Jianning. They are put into the Eight Banners. Wu Sangui and Dorgon defeat Li Zicheng and women get raped.
Most former Ming officials and soldiers in northern China defect to the Qing.
-Conquest of the southern Ming-
The second capital Nanjing is mostly peacefully taken after capitulating.
In 1645 Yangzhou is sacked for refusing to surrender after Han banner cannons bring down its walls and its people get massacred and women get kidnapped and raped by Han Banner and Manchu bannermen.
Haoge's archer assassinates Zhang Xianzhong in Sichuan who had 10 men with him after a defector Liu Jinzhong leads Haoge straight to his camp. Haoge leaves a defected Ming official and Green Standard Army soldiers to pacify Sichuan.
In 1648 a report to the Qing emperor states that 75% of the Eight Banners are Han.
Han Banner Generals like Kong Youde and Shang Kexi lead the conquest of southern China from southern Ming loyalists. Most of the soldiers in the armies which conquer southern Ming are Han with small Manchu detachments in the rear only used in battle if they are losing the battle.
Han Bannerman Meng Qiaofang conquers Gansu from Mi Layin and Ding Guodong.
In 1650 Han Banner general Shang Kexi leads mostly Han Bannermen to sack and massacre the people of Guangzhou after defeating Ming loyalists.
In 1662 Wu Sangui executes the Yongli Emperor after conquering Yunnan.
-Three Feudatories-
Three feudatories led by Wu Sangui, Shang Zhixin and Geng Jingzhong revolt. Most Han Green Standard army and Han Bannermen stay loyal to the Qing
Chahar Mongols led by Ligdan Khan's great grandsons revolt. Most other Mongols stay loyal to the Qing.
The Qing mobilize mostly 400,000 Han Green Standard Army, and smaller numbers of Han bannermen and Manchu bannermen to defeat the three feudatories. Rape of captured women happens.
Han Banner garrisons across important provincial cities like Guangzhou, Fuzhou and Zhenjiang are established.
-Post war-
In 1735 Qianlong demobilizes the Han Bannermen in the provincial garrisons in Guangzhou, Fuzhou, Zhenjiang and replaced them with Manchu bannermen. Han Bannermen in Beijing and Liaodong are exempted from demobilization.
Your above materials were still subjective, and you literally removed all my contributions and the part of bride taking. I have reiterated multiple times the difference between raping and bride taking, and you do not seem to have listened. I tried to have a normal discussion but all you just did is to revert my contributions and insert your own in another way. Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Also about Shunzhi Emperor's policy: the current description of the policy wrongly gives only part of the original policy. Their was not a sexual duality applied to officers and Manchu males can marry the Han Chinese women related to an officer freely. It also does not restrict the marriage between Manchu men and civilian Han women. This part should be added to complete the policy. Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:44, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a historical book the records things chronically. What you did also bewilders the contributions from other editors and did not describe events in a logical and informative way, and failed to show the whole event in a way that is easy to understand. There are obviously many parts above highly improper:
Thor's Axe ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Opasney ( talk) 23:36, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I do not see the usage of the statements above. They have not been verified aside, I do not see how they might affect the conclusions I draw. I will, once again, make clear about the changes I want to make:
@ Opasney: This discussion got a little bit derailed, do you want to start it back up and describe how you propose to re-order information? Simonm223 ( talk) 15:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)