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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Max More: http://www.kurzweilai.net/bios/images/more.jpg
Natasha Vita-More: http://www.extropy.org/images/Image11.jpg
Nick Bostrom: http://transhumanism.org/images/Nick%20Bostrom.jpg
If we have permission from Max More and Natasha Vita-More to use their images, let's do so. I don't see any issue of self-promotion. I see it as people who have been extremely important to the history and development of transhumanism being kind enough to show an interest in what's going on here, and helping us get around any copyvio problems with things that we'd like to do anyway. They both have my thanks.
Natasha, I don't think any low blows or acts of damning with faint praise are intended (they certainly are not intended by me). Getting those historical paras just right, from a distance of some years now, is quite tricky, and we are required to rely on public sources. I hope that what is there now strikes you as more accurately reflecting the historical reality. It seems obvious to me that Dr More pretty much invented transhumanism, as opposed to merely coining the word "transhumanism" (which we attribute to Julian Huxley). I thought the article said that, but maybe it's now clearer. Best wishes, Metamagician3000 08:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've found the source for Bailey's criticism of Bill McKibben' argument: Enough Already: A leading environmentalist makes a foolish case against technological innovation -- Loremaster 18:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Quoting a previous debate:
Moreover, the unopposed response, as it stands, provides a way of introducing the term "human racism", which makes people who find problems with this seem like racists. It doesn't seem to me that this is appropriate by the standards of Wikipedia--StN 16:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This alert is directed at my own head. Please, guys, we have here an article that has been accepted as one of Wikipedia's best. It doesn't have to contain a convincing answer to every criticism ever made of transhumanism. Nor does it have to contain anywhere some knockdown, unanswered argument against some aspect of some transhumanist's view of what the transhumanist agenda might be. It exists solely to give a description of transhumanism at the relatively introductory level of an encyclopedia article. In so far as we've kept a long criticisms section - having repeatedly veered away from creating a separate Criticisms of Transhumanism article - that section should summarise the main criticisms that have been made of transhumanist ideas. It should give some even-more-summary indication of the kinds of things that transhumanists have said in response. And that's all.
We all have our views on these issues. I, for example, am sympathetic to transhumanism, though in a highly qualified way, and have even been known in the past to accept/adopt the label "transhumanist" - but I've been back-pedalling ever since in the other forums where I discuss these things, because I actually oppose a lot of proposals that are made by high-profile transhumanists, such as creating conscious super-AI, "uplifting" non-human animals etc. I also deny that we are under a moral obligation to "cure aging", though I do favour cautious, reputable anti-ageing research. If you look at my views on specific issues they are often more bioconservative tban transhumanist, and I'd often find myself on the same side as StN if we were discussing specific proposals, though perhaps for different reasons based on my own broader philosophical position which probably does not resemble his. I am sympathetic to transhumanism in so far as I have a general philosophical view that it is acceptable, and perhaps even desirable, for us to change our own nature over the coming hundreds or thousands of years if we can do so without breaching independent and well-justified ethical principles. Perhaps that view does make me a transhumanist of sorts; I don't know anymore. It makes it appropriate for me to be associated with the IEET, but it is certainly not mainstream transhumanism.
What I do know is that I have no wish for the article to reflect my particular position on any issue. I only want it to do its job as a good introductory account of transhumanism. I was actually contemplating running a series of seminars for honours philosophy students in which I could say, "Here is a good, stable, neutral Wikipedia article; read it as a way in to exploring transhumanism. Follow up its references." I doubt that I'll do that now - partly, to be honest, because I don't think I'll have time to set it up this year, but also because the article has become unstable. But I would really like to have a stable article that can be used in such ways.
Loremaster, I do feel that you are too concerned to have every criticism answered convincingly. What we say here can only be indicative. The main thing is that there is a sense conveyed of the reality that transhumanists have answers to these various criticisms (though they may not have answered every single formulation and nuance ever put by every critic - no philosophical position is like that, as debates are always ongoing, with new variations of arguments constantly being developed and published on the various sides of issues). Surely there must be concise formulations we could use that suggest that tranhumanists have a general line of answer to criticism A, criticism B, and so on, without opening up detail that provokes StN to want to come back saying, "But... but!" If the article is written like that (as I believe it was prior to the FA), I think that the last word on the various issues should, indeed, go to the transhumanists, but not in a way that settles that they are "right". Could you accept this in principle? I believe that it matches your oft-stated intentions to do no more than write a neutral article on a subject in which you've developed an interest, but trying to look at it objectively I really do think you have a tendency to try to get in more than an indicative idea of what transhumanists say in reply to their various critics, and that this causes problems.
StN, I'm afraid I'm starting to get the feeling that you won't be content until we have an article that will point readers to the "truth" that transhumanism is a Bad Thing - that there are serious criticisms out there that have no answers. Perhaps there are, when it comes to specific issues. But it is not our role here at Wikipedia to uncover the truth, or even to ensure that the youth of the world are not corrupted by dangerous ideas, only to write a useful encyclopedia article.
Can we please restore the cooperative spirit that prevailed when the article was being considered for FA status? If we're not careful, we'll lose that status because of article instability. I'm starting to wonder whether some sort of mediation would be appropriate here, though I'm not the person to do it. I'm too impatient (and too busy) to be a mediator and I have too many views of my own about the subject matter under discussion.
I may well have offended you both, which I'd hate to do as you're valued colleagues, but I felt this had to be said. I feel inclined to withdraw from editing the article if we can't turn around the way the debate on this page is currently going. However, I'd be very unhappy if I had to do that. I've put a lot of effort into this, I think it's a worthwhile project, and we still have a great article that we should be proud of. Metamagician3000 03:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Metamagician wrote: I really do think you have a tendency to try to get in more than an indicative idea of what transhumanists say in reply to their various critics, and that this causes problems.
I disagree. If you look at the arguments against transhumanism and/or emerging technologies they tend be very cognent and specific in their criticisms while the transhumanist counter-arguments are often vague and sometimes do not directly respond to the argument in question as StN as often pointed out. I simply want to correct this so that no one stumbles upon this article and comes away thinking that transhumanists don't have much to say despite having the last word when they actually do.
StN wrote: I couldn't bring myself to do so without adding some negative points in response to what I saw as a subtle change of tone of the article toward the WTA position ever since (i) the dissolution of the Extropians, (ii) the passing of the front page listing, with the associated need to maintain neutrality, and (iii) the Stanford conference, which fortified the WTA and some of its supporters in their program to take over the franchise. (Perhaps a TM (trademark) symbol should be added to the article's title).
If you look back through the archives, you will discover that the Wikipedia article on Transhumanism, which was written by transhumanist advocate George Dorvsky, had a much stronger tone towards the so-called WTA position. Ever since then, users have been expanding and improving on the work he has done. This process, which you contributed to, has made the article more neutral. The dissolution of the Extropians does leave the World Transhumanist Association as the leading international transhumanist organization. Are we not supposed to mention this because it supposedly fortifies the WTA's conspiracy to take over transhumanism? Regardless, it wouldn't make any sense for an article on transhumanism not to report the position of the WTA on various questions. From everything you have confessed to, it is clear that you are not interested in neutrality but simply want this article to reflect your POV... -- Loremaster 15:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Brave New World argument is about the specific erosion of human equality, social order or even a species ethic but not morality in general. I therefore think we should change the sub-title. -- Loremaster 18:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I think Bailey's Brave New World counter-argument responds to this quite adequately, I think Hughes addresses this issue in Citizen Cyborg. I'll have to re-read the book to see if I can quote something cognent as a response. -- Loremaster 19:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure it wasn't me who did what you're objecting to? I've generally been trying to consolidate positions rather than having back and forth, but can't remember what I may have done here.
Anyway, I am going to be travelling around the countryside for the next two or three weeks, so I won't be here much from now on until some time well into July. I still don't know what to do with this "loose ends" issue. I think I now understand more about where you both are coming from, after yesterday's discussion. I can't respond in detail to your points about that now, but thanks for explaining more about what you are trying to do.
My view is that no philosophical position at any given time will have a response for every nuance, argument, etc., put by anyone on the other "side" of a debate that often doesn't have just two sides, and it is unfair to expect it. We shouldn't be implying that there are no loose ends, but nor should we be implying that loose ends somehow undermine the whole thing. The idea is still just to summarise the main, notable lines of criticism and the main lines of response to date, rather than to try to establish the truth of who is right or even of exactly what the state of all these complex debates might be as of any precise time. New stuff is constantly being published. Often the thinkers concerned will be talking past each other, using different language, or not taking aspects of each other's views seriously because of fundamentally different values or empirical beliefs. Without getting too far into original research, maybe we should point this out somewhere as a generalisation. Metamagician3000 04:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've renamed the argument about eugenics back to its original name, Eugenics Wars argument, and changed the sub-title to "genetic class warfare". I think this preserves that pattern we have set of naming arguments after relevant books or movies and I've just discovered the Eugenics Wars isn't just a backstory in the Star Trek universe but also the name of a series of books.
Following Anville's suggestion, I've consolidated the first and third paragraph of this section. This was also done because the first paragraph no longer had references. -- Loremaster 22:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I've now edited the Eugenics Wars counter-argument to respond to both the argument and "counter-counter-argument" which I have consolidated together. The following is my one of sources: From Chance to Choice: Genetics and Justice, a book written by four of America's leading bioethicists Allen Buchanan, Dan Brock, Norman Daniels and Daniel Wikler. I regret not having been able to do it sooner. -- Loremaster 16:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Finally a relevant argument! Not too persuasive as far as I am concerned, and a bit clumsily stated, but at least it's responsive to the social divisiveness question. Much better than petulantly reverting to a non sequitur. Bravo!-- StN 00:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
StN added the following "counter-counter-argument" in the Eugenics Wars section: Lee Silver, a biologist and writer on the genetic future who coined the term "reprogenetics" and supports its applications, has nonetheless expressed concern that these methods could create a two-tiered society of genetically-engineered "haves" and "have nots" in a society in which social democratic reforms lag behind implementation of enhancement technologies.
I've consolidated part of this text with the initial argument: While some critics acknowledge the differences between coercive and elective forms of eugenics they argue that the social stratification that may result from the latter would still be problematic in a society in which social democratic reforms lag behind implementation of enhancement technologies. In particular, in their view, it could present unprecedented challenges to democratic governance, even if it came about as the cumulative result of individual choices. -- Loremaster 19:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
StN recently added the following text to the History section of the article (which I deleted): A different view of contemporary impulses to remake the human body is provided by the feminist philosopher Susan Bordo, who characterizes them as "the logical (if extreme) manifestations of anxieties and fantasies fostered by our culture”.
Since this section is about explaining the history of the transhumanist movement, this just isn't the place to present these kinds of criticisms. Expanding this section with material provided by Natasha Vita-More's work CREATE/RECREATE, which document the topic in question, take precendence over lame attempts to discredit transhumanism. -- Loremaster 19:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
That being said, the Bordo material could be added to the Gattaca argument in relation to consumerism. -- Loremaster 19:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone supply a list of prominent papers and books on the subject for those who are interested? -- Oldak Quill 15:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The memory (stored data) ISN'T local, but NON-LOCAL. That is simply a fact ! How can any real futurist think that the brain is some 'hard drive' (?), when it is a sort of 'antenna' (plus 'processor' of information, but stored elsewhere)... Refer to work of Rupert Sheldrake, and the theory of morphic fields. Even in Vedas, 5000 yrs ago, were mentioned 'Akashic Records' (actually morphic fields of an individuals' past) as something non-local (to brain), being a sort of cosmic 'library'. Also, many other scientists are aware of the NON-LOCAL nature of memories, eg. Nikola Tesla, who gave the AC electricity to the world (and opened the doors to 'modern age') knew a whole century ago, that brain is just a sort of antenna to somewhere else where these data are actually stored. Plus, if there was any physical traces of data IN the brain, it would have been already detected with some nano-hi-tech equipment, but of course weren't since data are simply NOT IN THE BRAIN. greetings 64.187.60.69 20:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see emphasis about the Transhumanist Art Statement manifesto which had critical impact on how transhumanism was expressed in the 1980's. It should be included since it written about in Wired and covered at the London Museum of Contemporary Art. It is also in a collection of earthly artifacts on the ESA space probe to Saturn. (Impressive). Christopher Sherman
" Body Modification's Role in the Coming Human-Robot Apocalypse". Going one toke over the line God did not intend Man to cross. I found this via Crank Dot Net, quite an enjoyable little site. Anville 21:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Quoting David Brin:
From " Singularities and Nightmares: The Range of Our Futures", quoted in Contrary Brin. Such sayings might give perspective to the "Futurehype" section, it seems to me, while the comparision between "techno-transcendentalists" and religious figures may illuminate the "Playing God" section as well. Again, just thoughts. Anville 20:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Brin completely disqualified himself already by advocating a transparent society, derogatorily denoted Brinworld since.
Depending on whatever decade you happen to live in, techno-
It's good he doesn't say century, or millenium.
transcendentalism has shifted from one fad to another, pinning fervent hopes upon the scientific flavor of the week. For example, a hundred years ago, Marxists and Freudians wove compelling models of human
Excuse me? He claims Marxists and Freudians were technologists?
society — or mind — predicting that rational application of these models and rules would result in far higher levels of general happiness. Subsequently, with popular news about advances in
As in "I think something better, and by thinking alone it will become better" is silly?
No shit, Sherlock.
agriculture and evolutionary biology, some groups grew captivated by eugenics — the allure of improving the human animal. On occasion, misguided and even horrendous undertakings prompted widespread revulsion. Yet, this recurring dream has lately revived in new forms, with the promise of genetic engineering and neurotechnology.
So basically he claims 1) humans can't be improved by a change, being basically perfect 2) genetic energineering and neurotechnology can't change the human primate, or can't change the human primate for the better.
Enthusiasts for nuclear power in the 1950's promised energy too cheap to meter. Some of the same passion was seen in a widespread enthusiasm for space colonies, in the 1970's and 80's, and in today's ongoing
So he's looking at the past to predict the future. Uh, er, am I the only one to see a tiny little problem there?
cyber-transcendentalism, which promises ultimate freedom and privacy for everyone, if only we just start encrypting every Internet message, using anonymity online to perfectly mask the frail beings who are typing at a real keyboard. Over the long run, some hold out hope that
Ah, this from a man that thinks we should abolish privacy, and exects that powers to be will cede that secrecy willingly. As opposed to legislation protecting exercising technical means of privacy. From a man who received a sound beating on the cypherpunks and cryptography list, and who retreated sulking.
human minds will be able to download into computers or the vast new frontier of mid-21st Century cyberspace, freeing individuals of any remaining slavery to our crude and fallible organic bodies.
A yet another strawman.
This long tradition — of bright people pouring faith and enthusiasm into transcendental dreams — eerily resembling the way previous generations clasped salvation tales that were more religious or magical. This recurring theme tells us a lot about one aspect of our
Do you think human embryo cryopreservation is a) fantasy b) has been made possible by the Linde process, and would have remained a) until technology made it possible?
nature, a trait that crosses all cultures and all centuries. Are techno-transcendentalists really all that different, deep-down, than Saint Francis or Buddha — or kabbalist rabbis — vesting what amounts to sacred devotion upon unproved assumptions, almost as articles of trascendant faith?
A mere scientifically ignorant writerling has the nerve to write this? Granted, people write dumb shit all the time, but are we required to have this steaming pile to be paraded in front of our noses on finest china?
Beyond expanding the Frankenstein counter-argument to address some of the issues raised by StN, I am now safistified with the current version of the Criticisms section of the Transhumanism article and don't plan to edit it in any significant manner for the foreseeable future. -- Loremaster 17:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in earlier discussions, the following argument should appear in this article: Critics such as Susan Bordo, N. Katherine Hayles, and Mary Midgley write of a culture that fears mortality and, in its extreme, is revulsed by the carnal. Transhumanism, though not a named target of these critics, can be considered, in some of its forms, to be an expression of what such critics see as fantasies of eternal youth and bodily perfection.-- StN 15:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
As a transhumanist, I think humans who wish to be humans forever (not growing up to become posthumans) are the ones with "Peter Pan syndrome". Yudkowsky writes in Fun Theory? "Right now, we are each of us growing old. Not growing up, growing old. -- The fear of growing up is the third major cause of the fear of living forever; after the repressed fear of death, and the fear of boredom. In our time the fear of growing up is actually a minor academic fad except that it is not called the fear of growing up. It is called the fear of posthumanity."
Speaking of Peter Pan, maybe Edward Scissorhands should be mentioned somewhere. Edward is clearly a kind of modern, transhumanistic Frankenstein's monster: immortal, scissors as hands, feared by normal mortals - but actually just a childlike android who wants to make beautiful sculptures.
Loremaster placed the follwoing passage in the article:
"While pointing out that Peter Pan is a boy who doesn't want to grow up, not one who doesn't want to die, transhumanists explain that they are interested in radical life extension not perpetual immaturity."
I think "explain" (also used earlier on, but since changed), makes the article sound like the authors are taking issue with the criticisms on behalf of the transhumanist position. "Assert", "point out", etc. are better in such cases. Also, it seems to me that the writings of some transhumanists (Natasha Vita-More, perhaps?) express the desire not to die. This is a natural impulse, as pointed out by Nick Bostrom, below, but in some hands it becomes a element of the TH program. Concerning not wanting to grow up -- certainly transhumanists have promoted perpetual youth, in a physical and cosmetic sense, as a goal. Since even Peter Pan himself would not reject learning from experience, "not wanting to grow up" is bit more nuanced than simply wanting to remain a child. Peter Pan is not such a bad objective correlative for this impulse, and Loremaster's sentence isn't entirely fair.-- StN 16:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it is really important to focus on how transhumanism differs from Peter Pan, per se (e.g., in his not wanting to grow up). The titles of these sections are just meant to be suggestive, not literal. If it is considered desirable to present a defense of TH against presumed accusations of lack of gravitas, doing it specifically in relation to the fictional character seems to be misdirected.-- StN 18:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The following is the content from a forwarded email by Nick Bostrom:
There is a grain of truth in that. One does indeed come across "self-indulgent, uncontrolled power-fantasies" within the transhumanist community from time to time. But to limit one's assessment of transhumanism to this observation would be to miss the point. One might as well dismiss the idea that we have an obligation to help the poor or to save the environment on grounds that some of the people involved in these pursuits have been motivated by vanity or bigotry (or fear of castration, or whatever).
I was referring approximately to such views in the following passage from the Fable:
http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html
Sages predicted that a day would come when technology would enable humans to fly and do many other astonishing things. One of the sages, who was held in high esteem by some of the other sages but whose eccentric manners had made him a social outcast and recluse, went so far as to predict that technology would eventually make it possible to build a contraption that could kill the dragon-tyrant.
The king’s scholars, however, dismissed these ideas. They said that humans were far too heavy to fly and in any case lacked feathers. And as for the impossible notion that the dragon-tyrant could be killed, history books recounted hundreds of attempts to do just that, not one of which had been successful. “We all know that this man had some irresponsible ideas,” a scholar of letters later wrote in his obituary of the reclusive sage who had by then been sent off to be devoured by the beast whose demise he had foretold, “but his writings were quite entertaining and perhaps we should be grateful to the dragon for making possible the interesting genre of dragon-bashing literature which reveals so much about the culture of angst!”
I would also note that there is nothing particularly contemporary about desire to defeat death and remain young forever. It is a recurring theme in many different cultures, and can be traced back at least to the Epic of Gilgamesh (approx. 1700 BC). I would hazard the guess that it is rather more culturally, temporally, and demographically universal than feminist philosophy. Not that the two are incompatible - see e.g. the Canadian philosopher Christine Overall's recent work on life-extension from a feminist perspective.
Finally, the transhumanist goal is not exactly to live forever or to remain young forever. Rather, it is that men and women ought to have access to technologies enabling them to stay healthy and vigorous for as long as they find their lives worth living. Transhumanists think that what matters is not how many years have lapsed since the day you were born, but rather what quality of life you are able to look forward to. Preferring life to death, health to sickness, intact well-functioning cancer-free cells to ones that have accumulated junk and dangerous mutations - this is not an attitude that cries out for some deep psychoanalytic or cultural explanation. What is puzzling to me, rather, is that so many people feel compelled to make up reasons for thinking that aging, disease, and death are somehow beneficial things, especially as these same people usually are in favor of medical research and of access to health care for people of all ages. Why not drop the pretense? - Nick Bostrom
-- Loremaster 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of "Eugenics Wars" in the cited references. Could more specific citations be provided to support the assertions made in that section? - Will Beback 21:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The entry state that:
This should be reformulated. As the critics which immediately follow this paragraph makes clear, it is quite strange to read that Fukuyama, an ardent proponent of liberal democracy, defends this POV by the argument of an "erosion of human equality". Why? For the simple reason that Fukuyama, and any liberal, believes in de jure equality, not de facto equality. This is, of course, one of the main distinction between liberalism & socialism. Thus, why would "transhumanism" threatens de jure equality?
I hope this help understand why this paragraph is a bit meaningless, and should be changed. The current formulation might lead someone to the rather strange conclusion that Fukuyama is advocating socialism! And the critics that come immediately after are, in fact, true liberal critics, which Fukuyama should have endorsed. Fukuyama's argumentation must be different from the one explained hereby! Lapaz 15:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Correct me if I wrong but it seems that the numeric order of the notes is completely out of whack. Can someone work on this? -- Loremaster 22:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
RevanX added the following sentence (in bold) in the Enough counter-argument:
Although StN removed it due to the sarcastic POV language, I think a more neutral version of this sentence should be added since I've always thought this counter-argument was quite thin. -- Loremaster 17:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I've temporarily deleted the following text from the Terminator counter-argument:
I mistakenly assumed that the first two of these three sentences came from Nick Bostrom's essay on existential risks so I left them alone when they wered added by anonymous user 216.129.211.105 on August 1st, 2006. Can someone cite a source? -- Loremaster 12:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the mention of the source for the last sentence as well. -- Loremaster 14:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
A book by Edward Regis has been inserted into the reference list at some point in the past, but with no citation to it in the main text. It seems to be an affectionate look at fringe science, including transhumanism. There may be a relevant place to cite it, but if whoever added it, or someone else, can't come up with one soon, it should be deleted.-- StN 06:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Max More: http://www.kurzweilai.net/bios/images/more.jpg
Natasha Vita-More: http://www.extropy.org/images/Image11.jpg
Nick Bostrom: http://transhumanism.org/images/Nick%20Bostrom.jpg
If we have permission from Max More and Natasha Vita-More to use their images, let's do so. I don't see any issue of self-promotion. I see it as people who have been extremely important to the history and development of transhumanism being kind enough to show an interest in what's going on here, and helping us get around any copyvio problems with things that we'd like to do anyway. They both have my thanks.
Natasha, I don't think any low blows or acts of damning with faint praise are intended (they certainly are not intended by me). Getting those historical paras just right, from a distance of some years now, is quite tricky, and we are required to rely on public sources. I hope that what is there now strikes you as more accurately reflecting the historical reality. It seems obvious to me that Dr More pretty much invented transhumanism, as opposed to merely coining the word "transhumanism" (which we attribute to Julian Huxley). I thought the article said that, but maybe it's now clearer. Best wishes, Metamagician3000 08:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've found the source for Bailey's criticism of Bill McKibben' argument: Enough Already: A leading environmentalist makes a foolish case against technological innovation -- Loremaster 18:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Quoting a previous debate:
Moreover, the unopposed response, as it stands, provides a way of introducing the term "human racism", which makes people who find problems with this seem like racists. It doesn't seem to me that this is appropriate by the standards of Wikipedia--StN 16:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This alert is directed at my own head. Please, guys, we have here an article that has been accepted as one of Wikipedia's best. It doesn't have to contain a convincing answer to every criticism ever made of transhumanism. Nor does it have to contain anywhere some knockdown, unanswered argument against some aspect of some transhumanist's view of what the transhumanist agenda might be. It exists solely to give a description of transhumanism at the relatively introductory level of an encyclopedia article. In so far as we've kept a long criticisms section - having repeatedly veered away from creating a separate Criticisms of Transhumanism article - that section should summarise the main criticisms that have been made of transhumanist ideas. It should give some even-more-summary indication of the kinds of things that transhumanists have said in response. And that's all.
We all have our views on these issues. I, for example, am sympathetic to transhumanism, though in a highly qualified way, and have even been known in the past to accept/adopt the label "transhumanist" - but I've been back-pedalling ever since in the other forums where I discuss these things, because I actually oppose a lot of proposals that are made by high-profile transhumanists, such as creating conscious super-AI, "uplifting" non-human animals etc. I also deny that we are under a moral obligation to "cure aging", though I do favour cautious, reputable anti-ageing research. If you look at my views on specific issues they are often more bioconservative tban transhumanist, and I'd often find myself on the same side as StN if we were discussing specific proposals, though perhaps for different reasons based on my own broader philosophical position which probably does not resemble his. I am sympathetic to transhumanism in so far as I have a general philosophical view that it is acceptable, and perhaps even desirable, for us to change our own nature over the coming hundreds or thousands of years if we can do so without breaching independent and well-justified ethical principles. Perhaps that view does make me a transhumanist of sorts; I don't know anymore. It makes it appropriate for me to be associated with the IEET, but it is certainly not mainstream transhumanism.
What I do know is that I have no wish for the article to reflect my particular position on any issue. I only want it to do its job as a good introductory account of transhumanism. I was actually contemplating running a series of seminars for honours philosophy students in which I could say, "Here is a good, stable, neutral Wikipedia article; read it as a way in to exploring transhumanism. Follow up its references." I doubt that I'll do that now - partly, to be honest, because I don't think I'll have time to set it up this year, but also because the article has become unstable. But I would really like to have a stable article that can be used in such ways.
Loremaster, I do feel that you are too concerned to have every criticism answered convincingly. What we say here can only be indicative. The main thing is that there is a sense conveyed of the reality that transhumanists have answers to these various criticisms (though they may not have answered every single formulation and nuance ever put by every critic - no philosophical position is like that, as debates are always ongoing, with new variations of arguments constantly being developed and published on the various sides of issues). Surely there must be concise formulations we could use that suggest that tranhumanists have a general line of answer to criticism A, criticism B, and so on, without opening up detail that provokes StN to want to come back saying, "But... but!" If the article is written like that (as I believe it was prior to the FA), I think that the last word on the various issues should, indeed, go to the transhumanists, but not in a way that settles that they are "right". Could you accept this in principle? I believe that it matches your oft-stated intentions to do no more than write a neutral article on a subject in which you've developed an interest, but trying to look at it objectively I really do think you have a tendency to try to get in more than an indicative idea of what transhumanists say in reply to their various critics, and that this causes problems.
StN, I'm afraid I'm starting to get the feeling that you won't be content until we have an article that will point readers to the "truth" that transhumanism is a Bad Thing - that there are serious criticisms out there that have no answers. Perhaps there are, when it comes to specific issues. But it is not our role here at Wikipedia to uncover the truth, or even to ensure that the youth of the world are not corrupted by dangerous ideas, only to write a useful encyclopedia article.
Can we please restore the cooperative spirit that prevailed when the article was being considered for FA status? If we're not careful, we'll lose that status because of article instability. I'm starting to wonder whether some sort of mediation would be appropriate here, though I'm not the person to do it. I'm too impatient (and too busy) to be a mediator and I have too many views of my own about the subject matter under discussion.
I may well have offended you both, which I'd hate to do as you're valued colleagues, but I felt this had to be said. I feel inclined to withdraw from editing the article if we can't turn around the way the debate on this page is currently going. However, I'd be very unhappy if I had to do that. I've put a lot of effort into this, I think it's a worthwhile project, and we still have a great article that we should be proud of. Metamagician3000 03:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Metamagician wrote: I really do think you have a tendency to try to get in more than an indicative idea of what transhumanists say in reply to their various critics, and that this causes problems.
I disagree. If you look at the arguments against transhumanism and/or emerging technologies they tend be very cognent and specific in their criticisms while the transhumanist counter-arguments are often vague and sometimes do not directly respond to the argument in question as StN as often pointed out. I simply want to correct this so that no one stumbles upon this article and comes away thinking that transhumanists don't have much to say despite having the last word when they actually do.
StN wrote: I couldn't bring myself to do so without adding some negative points in response to what I saw as a subtle change of tone of the article toward the WTA position ever since (i) the dissolution of the Extropians, (ii) the passing of the front page listing, with the associated need to maintain neutrality, and (iii) the Stanford conference, which fortified the WTA and some of its supporters in their program to take over the franchise. (Perhaps a TM (trademark) symbol should be added to the article's title).
If you look back through the archives, you will discover that the Wikipedia article on Transhumanism, which was written by transhumanist advocate George Dorvsky, had a much stronger tone towards the so-called WTA position. Ever since then, users have been expanding and improving on the work he has done. This process, which you contributed to, has made the article more neutral. The dissolution of the Extropians does leave the World Transhumanist Association as the leading international transhumanist organization. Are we not supposed to mention this because it supposedly fortifies the WTA's conspiracy to take over transhumanism? Regardless, it wouldn't make any sense for an article on transhumanism not to report the position of the WTA on various questions. From everything you have confessed to, it is clear that you are not interested in neutrality but simply want this article to reflect your POV... -- Loremaster 15:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the Brave New World argument is about the specific erosion of human equality, social order or even a species ethic but not morality in general. I therefore think we should change the sub-title. -- Loremaster 18:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Although I think Bailey's Brave New World counter-argument responds to this quite adequately, I think Hughes addresses this issue in Citizen Cyborg. I'll have to re-read the book to see if I can quote something cognent as a response. -- Loremaster 19:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure it wasn't me who did what you're objecting to? I've generally been trying to consolidate positions rather than having back and forth, but can't remember what I may have done here.
Anyway, I am going to be travelling around the countryside for the next two or three weeks, so I won't be here much from now on until some time well into July. I still don't know what to do with this "loose ends" issue. I think I now understand more about where you both are coming from, after yesterday's discussion. I can't respond in detail to your points about that now, but thanks for explaining more about what you are trying to do.
My view is that no philosophical position at any given time will have a response for every nuance, argument, etc., put by anyone on the other "side" of a debate that often doesn't have just two sides, and it is unfair to expect it. We shouldn't be implying that there are no loose ends, but nor should we be implying that loose ends somehow undermine the whole thing. The idea is still just to summarise the main, notable lines of criticism and the main lines of response to date, rather than to try to establish the truth of who is right or even of exactly what the state of all these complex debates might be as of any precise time. New stuff is constantly being published. Often the thinkers concerned will be talking past each other, using different language, or not taking aspects of each other's views seriously because of fundamentally different values or empirical beliefs. Without getting too far into original research, maybe we should point this out somewhere as a generalisation. Metamagician3000 04:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I've renamed the argument about eugenics back to its original name, Eugenics Wars argument, and changed the sub-title to "genetic class warfare". I think this preserves that pattern we have set of naming arguments after relevant books or movies and I've just discovered the Eugenics Wars isn't just a backstory in the Star Trek universe but also the name of a series of books.
Following Anville's suggestion, I've consolidated the first and third paragraph of this section. This was also done because the first paragraph no longer had references. -- Loremaster 22:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I've now edited the Eugenics Wars counter-argument to respond to both the argument and "counter-counter-argument" which I have consolidated together. The following is my one of sources: From Chance to Choice: Genetics and Justice, a book written by four of America's leading bioethicists Allen Buchanan, Dan Brock, Norman Daniels and Daniel Wikler. I regret not having been able to do it sooner. -- Loremaster 16:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Finally a relevant argument! Not too persuasive as far as I am concerned, and a bit clumsily stated, but at least it's responsive to the social divisiveness question. Much better than petulantly reverting to a non sequitur. Bravo!-- StN 00:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
StN added the following "counter-counter-argument" in the Eugenics Wars section: Lee Silver, a biologist and writer on the genetic future who coined the term "reprogenetics" and supports its applications, has nonetheless expressed concern that these methods could create a two-tiered society of genetically-engineered "haves" and "have nots" in a society in which social democratic reforms lag behind implementation of enhancement technologies.
I've consolidated part of this text with the initial argument: While some critics acknowledge the differences between coercive and elective forms of eugenics they argue that the social stratification that may result from the latter would still be problematic in a society in which social democratic reforms lag behind implementation of enhancement technologies. In particular, in their view, it could present unprecedented challenges to democratic governance, even if it came about as the cumulative result of individual choices. -- Loremaster 19:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
StN recently added the following text to the History section of the article (which I deleted): A different view of contemporary impulses to remake the human body is provided by the feminist philosopher Susan Bordo, who characterizes them as "the logical (if extreme) manifestations of anxieties and fantasies fostered by our culture”.
Since this section is about explaining the history of the transhumanist movement, this just isn't the place to present these kinds of criticisms. Expanding this section with material provided by Natasha Vita-More's work CREATE/RECREATE, which document the topic in question, take precendence over lame attempts to discredit transhumanism. -- Loremaster 19:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
That being said, the Bordo material could be added to the Gattaca argument in relation to consumerism. -- Loremaster 19:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone supply a list of prominent papers and books on the subject for those who are interested? -- Oldak Quill 15:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The memory (stored data) ISN'T local, but NON-LOCAL. That is simply a fact ! How can any real futurist think that the brain is some 'hard drive' (?), when it is a sort of 'antenna' (plus 'processor' of information, but stored elsewhere)... Refer to work of Rupert Sheldrake, and the theory of morphic fields. Even in Vedas, 5000 yrs ago, were mentioned 'Akashic Records' (actually morphic fields of an individuals' past) as something non-local (to brain), being a sort of cosmic 'library'. Also, many other scientists are aware of the NON-LOCAL nature of memories, eg. Nikola Tesla, who gave the AC electricity to the world (and opened the doors to 'modern age') knew a whole century ago, that brain is just a sort of antenna to somewhere else where these data are actually stored. Plus, if there was any physical traces of data IN the brain, it would have been already detected with some nano-hi-tech equipment, but of course weren't since data are simply NOT IN THE BRAIN. greetings 64.187.60.69 20:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see emphasis about the Transhumanist Art Statement manifesto which had critical impact on how transhumanism was expressed in the 1980's. It should be included since it written about in Wired and covered at the London Museum of Contemporary Art. It is also in a collection of earthly artifacts on the ESA space probe to Saturn. (Impressive). Christopher Sherman
" Body Modification's Role in the Coming Human-Robot Apocalypse". Going one toke over the line God did not intend Man to cross. I found this via Crank Dot Net, quite an enjoyable little site. Anville 21:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Quoting David Brin:
From " Singularities and Nightmares: The Range of Our Futures", quoted in Contrary Brin. Such sayings might give perspective to the "Futurehype" section, it seems to me, while the comparision between "techno-transcendentalists" and religious figures may illuminate the "Playing God" section as well. Again, just thoughts. Anville 20:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Brin completely disqualified himself already by advocating a transparent society, derogatorily denoted Brinworld since.
Depending on whatever decade you happen to live in, techno-
It's good he doesn't say century, or millenium.
transcendentalism has shifted from one fad to another, pinning fervent hopes upon the scientific flavor of the week. For example, a hundred years ago, Marxists and Freudians wove compelling models of human
Excuse me? He claims Marxists and Freudians were technologists?
society — or mind — predicting that rational application of these models and rules would result in far higher levels of general happiness. Subsequently, with popular news about advances in
As in "I think something better, and by thinking alone it will become better" is silly?
No shit, Sherlock.
agriculture and evolutionary biology, some groups grew captivated by eugenics — the allure of improving the human animal. On occasion, misguided and even horrendous undertakings prompted widespread revulsion. Yet, this recurring dream has lately revived in new forms, with the promise of genetic engineering and neurotechnology.
So basically he claims 1) humans can't be improved by a change, being basically perfect 2) genetic energineering and neurotechnology can't change the human primate, or can't change the human primate for the better.
Enthusiasts for nuclear power in the 1950's promised energy too cheap to meter. Some of the same passion was seen in a widespread enthusiasm for space colonies, in the 1970's and 80's, and in today's ongoing
So he's looking at the past to predict the future. Uh, er, am I the only one to see a tiny little problem there?
cyber-transcendentalism, which promises ultimate freedom and privacy for everyone, if only we just start encrypting every Internet message, using anonymity online to perfectly mask the frail beings who are typing at a real keyboard. Over the long run, some hold out hope that
Ah, this from a man that thinks we should abolish privacy, and exects that powers to be will cede that secrecy willingly. As opposed to legislation protecting exercising technical means of privacy. From a man who received a sound beating on the cypherpunks and cryptography list, and who retreated sulking.
human minds will be able to download into computers or the vast new frontier of mid-21st Century cyberspace, freeing individuals of any remaining slavery to our crude and fallible organic bodies.
A yet another strawman.
This long tradition — of bright people pouring faith and enthusiasm into transcendental dreams — eerily resembling the way previous generations clasped salvation tales that were more religious or magical. This recurring theme tells us a lot about one aspect of our
Do you think human embryo cryopreservation is a) fantasy b) has been made possible by the Linde process, and would have remained a) until technology made it possible?
nature, a trait that crosses all cultures and all centuries. Are techno-transcendentalists really all that different, deep-down, than Saint Francis or Buddha — or kabbalist rabbis — vesting what amounts to sacred devotion upon unproved assumptions, almost as articles of trascendant faith?
A mere scientifically ignorant writerling has the nerve to write this? Granted, people write dumb shit all the time, but are we required to have this steaming pile to be paraded in front of our noses on finest china?
Beyond expanding the Frankenstein counter-argument to address some of the issues raised by StN, I am now safistified with the current version of the Criticisms section of the Transhumanism article and don't plan to edit it in any significant manner for the foreseeable future. -- Loremaster 17:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in earlier discussions, the following argument should appear in this article: Critics such as Susan Bordo, N. Katherine Hayles, and Mary Midgley write of a culture that fears mortality and, in its extreme, is revulsed by the carnal. Transhumanism, though not a named target of these critics, can be considered, in some of its forms, to be an expression of what such critics see as fantasies of eternal youth and bodily perfection.-- StN 15:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
As a transhumanist, I think humans who wish to be humans forever (not growing up to become posthumans) are the ones with "Peter Pan syndrome". Yudkowsky writes in Fun Theory? "Right now, we are each of us growing old. Not growing up, growing old. -- The fear of growing up is the third major cause of the fear of living forever; after the repressed fear of death, and the fear of boredom. In our time the fear of growing up is actually a minor academic fad except that it is not called the fear of growing up. It is called the fear of posthumanity."
Speaking of Peter Pan, maybe Edward Scissorhands should be mentioned somewhere. Edward is clearly a kind of modern, transhumanistic Frankenstein's monster: immortal, scissors as hands, feared by normal mortals - but actually just a childlike android who wants to make beautiful sculptures.
Loremaster placed the follwoing passage in the article:
"While pointing out that Peter Pan is a boy who doesn't want to grow up, not one who doesn't want to die, transhumanists explain that they are interested in radical life extension not perpetual immaturity."
I think "explain" (also used earlier on, but since changed), makes the article sound like the authors are taking issue with the criticisms on behalf of the transhumanist position. "Assert", "point out", etc. are better in such cases. Also, it seems to me that the writings of some transhumanists (Natasha Vita-More, perhaps?) express the desire not to die. This is a natural impulse, as pointed out by Nick Bostrom, below, but in some hands it becomes a element of the TH program. Concerning not wanting to grow up -- certainly transhumanists have promoted perpetual youth, in a physical and cosmetic sense, as a goal. Since even Peter Pan himself would not reject learning from experience, "not wanting to grow up" is bit more nuanced than simply wanting to remain a child. Peter Pan is not such a bad objective correlative for this impulse, and Loremaster's sentence isn't entirely fair.-- StN 16:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it is really important to focus on how transhumanism differs from Peter Pan, per se (e.g., in his not wanting to grow up). The titles of these sections are just meant to be suggestive, not literal. If it is considered desirable to present a defense of TH against presumed accusations of lack of gravitas, doing it specifically in relation to the fictional character seems to be misdirected.-- StN 18:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The following is the content from a forwarded email by Nick Bostrom:
There is a grain of truth in that. One does indeed come across "self-indulgent, uncontrolled power-fantasies" within the transhumanist community from time to time. But to limit one's assessment of transhumanism to this observation would be to miss the point. One might as well dismiss the idea that we have an obligation to help the poor or to save the environment on grounds that some of the people involved in these pursuits have been motivated by vanity or bigotry (or fear of castration, or whatever).
I was referring approximately to such views in the following passage from the Fable:
http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html
Sages predicted that a day would come when technology would enable humans to fly and do many other astonishing things. One of the sages, who was held in high esteem by some of the other sages but whose eccentric manners had made him a social outcast and recluse, went so far as to predict that technology would eventually make it possible to build a contraption that could kill the dragon-tyrant.
The king’s scholars, however, dismissed these ideas. They said that humans were far too heavy to fly and in any case lacked feathers. And as for the impossible notion that the dragon-tyrant could be killed, history books recounted hundreds of attempts to do just that, not one of which had been successful. “We all know that this man had some irresponsible ideas,” a scholar of letters later wrote in his obituary of the reclusive sage who had by then been sent off to be devoured by the beast whose demise he had foretold, “but his writings were quite entertaining and perhaps we should be grateful to the dragon for making possible the interesting genre of dragon-bashing literature which reveals so much about the culture of angst!”
I would also note that there is nothing particularly contemporary about desire to defeat death and remain young forever. It is a recurring theme in many different cultures, and can be traced back at least to the Epic of Gilgamesh (approx. 1700 BC). I would hazard the guess that it is rather more culturally, temporally, and demographically universal than feminist philosophy. Not that the two are incompatible - see e.g. the Canadian philosopher Christine Overall's recent work on life-extension from a feminist perspective.
Finally, the transhumanist goal is not exactly to live forever or to remain young forever. Rather, it is that men and women ought to have access to technologies enabling them to stay healthy and vigorous for as long as they find their lives worth living. Transhumanists think that what matters is not how many years have lapsed since the day you were born, but rather what quality of life you are able to look forward to. Preferring life to death, health to sickness, intact well-functioning cancer-free cells to ones that have accumulated junk and dangerous mutations - this is not an attitude that cries out for some deep psychoanalytic or cultural explanation. What is puzzling to me, rather, is that so many people feel compelled to make up reasons for thinking that aging, disease, and death are somehow beneficial things, especially as these same people usually are in favor of medical research and of access to health care for people of all ages. Why not drop the pretense? - Nick Bostrom
-- Loremaster 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of "Eugenics Wars" in the cited references. Could more specific citations be provided to support the assertions made in that section? - Will Beback 21:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The entry state that:
This should be reformulated. As the critics which immediately follow this paragraph makes clear, it is quite strange to read that Fukuyama, an ardent proponent of liberal democracy, defends this POV by the argument of an "erosion of human equality". Why? For the simple reason that Fukuyama, and any liberal, believes in de jure equality, not de facto equality. This is, of course, one of the main distinction between liberalism & socialism. Thus, why would "transhumanism" threatens de jure equality?
I hope this help understand why this paragraph is a bit meaningless, and should be changed. The current formulation might lead someone to the rather strange conclusion that Fukuyama is advocating socialism! And the critics that come immediately after are, in fact, true liberal critics, which Fukuyama should have endorsed. Fukuyama's argumentation must be different from the one explained hereby! Lapaz 15:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Correct me if I wrong but it seems that the numeric order of the notes is completely out of whack. Can someone work on this? -- Loremaster 22:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
RevanX added the following sentence (in bold) in the Enough counter-argument:
Although StN removed it due to the sarcastic POV language, I think a more neutral version of this sentence should be added since I've always thought this counter-argument was quite thin. -- Loremaster 17:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I've temporarily deleted the following text from the Terminator counter-argument:
I mistakenly assumed that the first two of these three sentences came from Nick Bostrom's essay on existential risks so I left them alone when they wered added by anonymous user 216.129.211.105 on August 1st, 2006. Can someone cite a source? -- Loremaster 12:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the mention of the source for the last sentence as well. -- Loremaster 14:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
A book by Edward Regis has been inserted into the reference list at some point in the past, but with no citation to it in the main text. It seems to be an affectionate look at fringe science, including transhumanism. There may be a relevant place to cite it, but if whoever added it, or someone else, can't come up with one soon, it should be deleted.-- StN 06:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)