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This review is summarized in the article as follows:
The only thing that the review says about TM is this:
I don't understand. I guess I'll just go ahead and quote from the study. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
What study?--
Kala Bethere (
talk) 15:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Timid moves a sentence within a paragraph without changing the text of that sentence. Kala reverts claiming edit warring and no consensus. What's going on here? -- BwB ( talk) 14:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
So, to come back to the initial question raised above. How is a simple move of a sentence within a paragraph without any change of text considered edit warring? All this talk of COI and sockpuppet is beside the point. -- BwB ( talk) 11:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
"Please show a Wikipedia policy or guideline that says an editor accused, especially unfairly, of sockpuppetry or meat puppetry must stop editing" is tongue in cheek wikilawyering, nothing else, and Wikipedia has a time-honoured tradition of showing people trying this the door directly.
We want no socks, and we want no COI pov pushers, and we have the will and the tools to ban such editors, under WP:DISRUPT, WP:COI, WP:DUCK, WP:UCS and if necessary even WP:IAR. If the letter of policy is made to conflict with the spirit, it is the spirit that is going to win out every time. This is no court of law, and it is no democracy. Ah yes, and WP:ENC. -- dab (𒁳) 11:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
The upshot is "null result". I do not think that a separate article is necessary to point this out. In fact, I understand that there is an ongoing attempt of hiding the upshot in as much text as possible so it won't be staring readers in the face so much. -- dab (𒁳) 11:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
"A 2009 review said that research on Transcendental Meditation has shown specific physiological changes to occur, such as a reduction in respiratory rate, decreased breath volume, a decrease in lactate (associated with stress), a decrease in cortisol, and increases in basal skin resistance."
"EEG research on brain waves has shown an increase in theta waves and a dominant pattern of alpha waves in the frontal and occipital lobes. With long-term practice these changes seen in meditation carry over into activity. These changes may enhance brain integration and reduce emotional reactivity."
Once again, someone is changing a lede paragraph without discussion or consensus, after consensus was already reached on the third paragraph. The "Anderson study" (second one) with the cherry-picked studies actually lists the majority (all but 1) as being compared to "Health Education" controls. Therefore please don't remove this without discussion, esp. on an already consensus-based lede paragraph TimidGuy! It's important to show that subtle physiologic differences are not the result of comparing meditators to someone else resting, twice a day, with eyes closed, with similar expectations, but instead to "Health Education".
We're having problems with people editing these articles not only without consensus, but when we've already reached a consensus on their current form.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:13, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I blew that. I thought that I had remembered that Anderson explicitly said that he was simply looking at reduction and not factoring in controls. I may have been confusing it with the Rainforth meta-analysis. My deep and sincere apologies. Kala, in regard to why certain studies were selected for Anderson's meta-analysis, he describes that process in detail. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This is now in the article twice. Is that a mistake?
• These results were similar to a 2004, review examining the effects of TM on blood pressure which concluded that there was "insufficient good-quality evidence to conclude whether or not TM has a cumulative positive effect on blood pressure." The review said that the RCTs published had important methodological weaknesses and were potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.[62]
I suggest we delete the second occurrence. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:03, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Neither one of these are mentioned in this article? Wondering why as they are extensions of TM. This ref says "The TM® Sidhis (sic) Program, an add-on to the core TM® product, purports to accept such powers as accruing from meditation practice, and specifically seeks to first develop the siddhi of levitation." PMID 16931164 Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 16:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This section is inaccurately named. We are conflating the idea that some mediation techniques are more "advanced" than the TM technique with a group of techniques that are actually called Advanced Techniques. So we have to tile the section to indicate the techniques are "beyond or other than" the initial TM techniqu with out using the term advanced technique. The are two different groups of techniques that are given beyond the TM technique according to the sources, one is Advanced Techniques the other is the TM Sidhi Program. I'll rename the section to reflect this information.( olive ( talk) 22:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
As well the wording is not accurate per the source.( olive ( talk) 22:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
Source: "In the mid seventies Maharishi began training senior staff in advanced techniques." then "By 1977 Maharishi officially focused his attention on more advanced groups of people who underwent TM Sidhi techniques." ( olive ( talk) 22:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
In 2005 Maharishi added a new Advanced Technique, the Night Technique, to the Transcendental Meditation program. Its purpose is to accelerate growth to higher states of consciousness, specifically by taking advantage of our time of sleep to support the growth of enlightenment. The Night Technique is now the first in the sequence of four Advanced Techniques.
This seems excessively long, especially for a verbatim quote. We might add a long quote for an important conclusion, but this is just an aside. We should be able to summarize this in a single sentence. Will Beback talk 11:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Will Beback, Kala Bethere, Doc James, your points here are well taken. If I have the liberty of expressing this in terms that will be meaningful not only to the scientists who might read this article (and a few may indeed do so, regardless of WP's poor reputation), then I will alter the statement in the article and see if it meets with approval. ChemistryProf ( talk) 04:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
The removal of content sourced to this published review is unacceptable. It presents in a more balanced way the results of Ospina Bond's original review. It raises the total number of studies scoring good or better on Jadad. It openly discusses the issues of whether Jadad is appropriate and whether it's possible to double blind meditation studies. It's important to reference their most recent thinking on the topic. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Earlier today I added the following sentence to lede, which was later removed by Kala.
This is a valid sentence to have in the lede. It reflects a topic in the body of the article and show that TM research has received substantial funding over the years. Cannot see any Wiki policy to say it cannot be in the lede. Thanks. -- BwB ( talk) 19:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually no...and its not good to put words in someone else's mouth ... Its so unsanitary. Lets see what Olive actually has to say. We have an article that was stripped of the studies so what is left is a "curiously" negative view of the TM research. At the same time seems the NIH has funded studies on the TM technique multiple times. Those two positions describe the research at this point in time, per this article and based on the many times stated positions of some of the editors here. Content on both of those positions needs to be represented in the lede, and in the article, to accomplish NPOV.( olive ( talk) 23:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC))
Have posted here for any further comments / advice before potential arbitatration: [10] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
This 2009 review is recent and meets Wikipedia guidelines and policies. If the authors of this review surveyed the literature and feel that certain scientific studies are evidence for particular physiological effects, we shouldn't second guess them. This is now the third time that material from a reliable secondary source has been removed. The pediatric review should not have been removed, nor the material sourced to a medical textbook. I restored the material sourced to the medical textbook and am working on rewriting the pediatric material. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually, it's the fourth instance. Kala also removed the JACM review. (And thanks, Doc, for restoring.) TimidGuy ( talk) 12:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
An image of someone doing TM would be great. I have an uncle who does this and gave much of his money to the Maharishi. Also ran for the Natural Law Party of Canada. I am sure he would be happy to have his picture taken if we cannot find another. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The official TM web site has prices for TM. Reference [6] directs to web site. Thanks. Sorry this was me who made the edit. I forge to sign. -- BwB ( talk) 09:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
A full discussion should include prices in other parts of the world otherwise we risk being US centric. ( olive ( talk) 22:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
I was considering taking up the role of teaching again but this was a curtain coming down on that," said Dr. Liddell, who was head of TM Bermuda for 15 years from 1984. "I wasn’t upset or angry but it was a bit like a bomb had dropped." Former TM teacher Frances Eddy said she was "outraged" at the price hike. "It makes it very difficult for teachers to ask for that kind of money and it excludes ordinary people.
Well, if Transcendental Meditation becomes so expensive that fewer people waste their money on it, maybe that isn't such a bad thing?
The Royal Gazette/August 16, 2003 By Benedict Greening
http://www.royalgazette.com/rg/index.jsp?sectionId=55 http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm62.html http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/08/21/transcendental-meditation-too-expensive.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuckerj1976 ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
And I was so looking forward to four part harmony on the Kumbya. Alas, maybe another time! Good team work :-)-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This is an interesting situation. The pediatric review categorizes the Kratter RCT as a TM study, but then in a footnote says that it's not TM but is like TM. I looked at the study and feel it's quite a bit different from TM. In addition, it was only an ERIC publication. So I've not included the findings from this study, which found a benefit to ADHD (improved attention, etc.). TimidGuy ( talk) 11:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
What I am seeing here is two or three editors who reveal in almost every sentence they write on these discussion pages that they have a VERY STRONG NEGATIVE BIAS against TM and its research, and two or three editors, who happen to be TM practitioners and maybe even faculty members at Maharishi University of Management, who appear to be making a genuine effort (though not always succeeding) to create an article that is neutral. This is a condition of imbalance. We do not get a neutral article by including only the few reports and reviews that reach negative conclusions about MEDITATION RESEARCH (not necessarily about the TM technique research) and twist those to state that these negative conclusions refer specifically to the TM research. Either we make an honest effort to reflect the majority of research out there, which means, at the least, covering the relevant conclusions of ALL PEER REVIEWED secondary sources that have data specific to TM. The "relevant conclusions" means, wherever possible, the conclusions that relate specifically to the TM technique, the topic of this article. Not all of those conclusions have to be stated in the abstract or in the summary conclusion section of the source. The summary conclusions in a paper include only those that the authors feel are most central to their stated goal. If their goal was not to compare effects of specific techniques but to lump them together, then they will not include any conclusions about the specific techniques in their summary. On the other hand, their results may show in tables or other data that TM research was uncharacteristic of the whole. In the case of the original AHRQ report, the results showed that the majority of the TM randomized trials scored in the good range, even using the Jadad scale. This was not true of any other meditation technique they included. If we are going to persist in including this government report as a reliable source (and I have stated reasons why we should not), then it is certainly justifiable to include this result of the quality evaluation of TM trials even though it was not mentioned in the conclusions. And we are bound to include all the peer reviewed secondary sources that have findings specific to TM research even if these are not mentioned as major conclusions of the paper. It is not our role as editors to pick and chose what secondary sources suit our fancy. We include all of the ones that have findings that are clearly specific to the TM technique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I am sticking with my comment above. The information about funding from the NIH is an important observation that does not fit the interpretation that researching the TM program is fringe science or pseudoscience. The fact that some of you seem to be locked on that interpretation despite any evidence to the contrary prevents you from seeing that the NIH information is relevant. It's not relevant TO YOU if your minds are already made up, but that is not a neutral POV by any stretch of the imagination. It is absolutely as much by the WP rules to include this point in the lede as it is going by the rules to include a politicized governmental report about many different mental and physical techniques the authors squeezed under the title "meditation," even if this report did include some research on the TM technique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:23, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
We are definitely not in agreement. I have searched the government report for statements like the one currently in the lede. I see nothing similar. Inserting "Transcendental Meditation" and "TM" the way someone has done here, instead of referring to the collective meditation techniques as the report does, is obvious POV and is not appropriate. I will submit another version of these two items, although my feeling is that the government report is a weak source and is not specific enough or scientific enough to be in the article, much less in the lede. ChemistryProf ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, here is a summary of the research that represents the body of work and introduces the government report that some editors are so fond of. Obviously the conclusions of specific reviews will be given in more detail in the research section of the article. References can be added when this is inserted to replace the current discussion of the research in the text of the lede. "Possible effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on physiological, psychological, and individual health measures have been investigated scientifically, as have its effects on society. A significant portion of this research has been funded by government grants from the United States National Institutes of Health, from public funding agencies in other countries, and by private foundations. Several qualitative and quantitative reviews have reported significant changes in a number of these measures during and after practice of the technique. However, a government report reviewing many techniques of meditation concluded that most of the meditation research had used weak methods or was poorly reported." ChemistryProf ( talk) 06:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) I say we stick with what is there now. We could change it to "Research done by the TM movement is generally of poor quality. Independent analysis of the research does not support the claims made by this movement and concludes that TM does not have any properties different than health education / standard relaxation. Well governments has supported research in the past some governments now have policies baring future funding of TM due to its religious and pseudo-scientific nature." Refs can be added latter. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 08:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Will Beback, in answer to your first question, I doubt that this exact statement can be found in a single source. We can give sources for the $20+ million from the NIH and probably for each of the other mentioned funding types. As for the government report, as TimidGuy points out, the report found more positive results for the TM program than it did negative results, so the present statement of the results of the report is something made up by a previous editor. It is nowhere to be found in the report. One analysis of the report failed to find significant increases of BP when compared to a control condition. This result was created in part by an error of data transfer by the authors of the report. This error was caught by several reviewers of the report, but was not corrected by the report's authors. In answer to your question about other reviews finding negative results, I am aware of a review by Canter and Ernst in 2004 that found inconclusive evidence for a reduction of blood pressure with TM. Subsequent reviews that included additional studies have found significant reductions, including the government report we are citing. In answer to your last question, it is not important to say "qualitative and quantitative" in the lead. These terms would mean little to anyone other than a scientist familiar with the distinctions between these types of reviews.
Fladrif and Doc James, the current statement in the lede that is attributed to the government report is fictitious. If you disagree, then please point me to the page and paragraph where it appears in the report. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The results showing a significant effect of the TM technique on BP were from studies using an active control group, progressive muscle relaxation, which itself has been shown to reduce BP. This is a more powerful result than comparison to a usual care control or to a health education control. However, if you read the original papers, it is explained that the health education control was designed as a placebo procedure. The control participants received instruction of the same length and the same amount of instructor attention as the TM group, with enthusiastic HE instructors giving information intended to create the same amount of expectation as in the TM group. The HE group also had periods of quiet time twice a day like the meditation group. So the HE condition was designed as a placebo control. As I mentioned above, one of the reasons the comparison of TM with HE in the AHRQ report found no significant effect is that the authors of the report made significant errors in transferring data from one of the papers to the report's analysis. They also made other errors in this analysis. These errors were pointed out to the authors by three of the report's reviewers but was not corrected in the final report. This is one of several reasons I have mentioned before that make this report a weak source. The Orme-Johnson critique describes many of these weaknesses. So if the original AHRQ report or the later, peer reviewed paper is cited, then to maintain a neutral POV, we need to mention and cite the critique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 18:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James, following is the part of the quote I could not find anywhere in the AHRQ report: "A 2007 review of various meditation practices, most notably Transcendental Meditation, concluded that the definitive health effects of TM cannot be determined as the bulk of scientific evidence was of poor quality." As for the quote you repeated just now, what gives you the right to cherry pick this negative finding and omit the larger number of positive findings listed by
TimidGuy? As for your personal opinion of Orme-Johnson's work, that is your POV, not shared by the scores of peer reviewers of the dozens of articles he has published in respectable journals. Nor is it shared by the NIH, since he has been invited to participate in special symposia organized by them. He is a scientist of considerable renown and not someone that any WP editor can simply dismiss.
ChemistryProf (
talk) 03:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James, I have scanned through this long discussion again, and I do not find the reference or the answers you indicate. Would you please copy them and paste them here? Thanks, this will facilitate any further discussion. ChemistryProf ( talk) 06:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
We've set a high standard for research, even disallowing, for example, a randomized controlled trial published by the AMA and disallowing one published in 2009 with over 300 subjects. So I don't understand how we can possibly include in the article material about the finding of the German report. It wasn't peer reviewed, wasn't published in an academic journal, is not cited in the scientific literature, isn't included in review articles. The evidence in the report is anecdotal. It fails MEDRS on every count. It's anecdotal, dated, and a primary source. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that the above section states, Schools in other countries, such as the Netherlands, Australia, India, Ecuador, Thailand, China, Great Britain ...
This would seem to suggest that there is no controversy regarding this in these countries, however, this is not the case. For example ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/14/transcendental-meditation-in-schools) Should this not be cited in the interest of balance? For example:
It all sounds very positive, but the idea of introducing TM into schools is not without controversy. Indeed, for many people it can seem like a kooky child-rearing idea too far. There are questions about whether it is appropriate for children - indeed, whether children can master a practice that involves extended bouts of concentration. Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School in Exeter, says that "there is no good evidence that TM has positive effects on children. The data that exist are all deeply flawed."
Educational psychologist Kairen Cullen, associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, sounds a note of caution. She questions "at what age you could realistically expect a child to engage with this. It would certainly take discipline and require physical and mental control and focus." She does believe that TM can, in general, be a helpful tool, but is "not aware of any empirical research specifically showing the benefits to children. This is a very difficult sample group to access and it would be very hard to provide empirical evidence - any claims would therefore be pretty speculative."
Phillip Hodson, fellow of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, believes that regular meditation could boost children's wellbeing. "Thoughts are psychoactive - as powerful as drugs," he says. "Anything that encourages a child's emotional intelligence would be a positive antidote to our goal-orientated education system. It could also be very useful to give children techniques that they can use in moments of stress."
Hodson doesn't subscribe solely to TM, however, saying that it "is just one of a range of relaxation techniques that can help children - the simplest being controlled breathing". And it is potentially problematic to rely on one form of meditation. "I would query any grand claims that a single technique can change your entire life," he says. "If it could, wouldn't we all be doing it?"
Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 23:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
This is what the reference says if one looks at page four. "Overall it concluded that the results of TM are no greater than health education regarding blood pressure, body weight, heart rate, stress, anger, self-efficacy, cholesterol, dietary intake, or level of physical activity in hypertensive patients. ref name="Ospina p.4"/" It does not say "A meta-analysis of five studies found that the results of TM are no greater". Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 21:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)==Interesting overview of TM== This is an interesting book that gives an overview of the research quality. Commenting that most of the thousands of studies were done by people within the movement, not peer reviewed, not properly controlled and published by MUMs own press. Lola Williamson (2010). Transcendent in America: Hindu-Inspired Meditation Movements as New Religion (New and Alternative Religions). NYU PRESS. p. 100. ISBN 0-8147-9450-5. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) Yes it confirms the above book "Much of the research is now done by members of the TM organization, often at their own Maharishi International University (MIU) in Fairfield, Iowa. Most of it is published in their own publications, where it is not subject to the normal peer review system of scientific journals. A strong motivation to prove the efficacy of TM could bias the findings." And I love James Randi Randi "concludes that the Maharishi has turned unproved and outdated notions of Eastern mysticism into a pseudoscientific mess"" Good find. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 19:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Both the book and article in question meet WIKI criteria for inclusion per: [
[15]], [
[16]], [
[17]] and would not be counter to [
[18]] and [
[19]] amongst a lot of other rules and guidelines. I don't see a problem. I don't understand the first part of statement I am afraid
Tuckerj1976 (
talk) 20:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I should also bring attention to WP:FRINGE especially [ [20]] and a counter to [ [21]]and [ [22]] Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 21:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The Times is factually incorrect in saying that the 1977 court decision found that the TM movement is a religion. Court documents and law review articles say that the issue was a course in TM/SCI taught in five public schools. This course was found to be religious in nature. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Have added a reference from James Randi who is an well known and respected expert in this area ( ie pseudoscience / paranormal ). Will add more from him to provide balance. Much of what he states is the obvious such as the Maharishi assured member of the natural law party that they would win the election and they didn't, that people would fly and no one every has, etc. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Why were the following sentences removed that were sourced to the pediatric review? "Of the 6 TM studies, 5 were randomized controlled trials. A primary outcome of the randomized controlled trials on Transcendental Meditation was the reduction of hypertension and improvement in vascular function relative to health education, as well as reductions in absenteeism and attentional problems." There is no policy or guideline that supports the removal of this sourced content. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. As I believe I've already stated, the study in question does not draw conclusions based on TM alone. Therefore you should not be including conclusions which include other forms of "sitting meditation" since the conclusions are not derived from TM alone.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 17:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Edit conflict
I agree with TimidGuy and Olive here. If the TM results are specifically shown and discussed in the article, it does not matter that the abstract does not mention TM specifically, those results are relevant. The TM results presented in the article are singled out because this WP article is about the TM program, not about all sitting meditation techniques. If it would clarify the matter, we could add a preface to the sentences as follows: "A review of the effects of sitting meditation techniques in adolescents...." However, I am getting the strong impression that Kala Bethere simply does not want to allow any positive results or statements about the TM program no matter what kind of publication is used as the source. This is not good WP editing. We are here to represent the sources as accurately as possible, not to pick only the sources and statements that show negative (or positive) conclusions. And just to clarify a point, all reviews rely on primary sources. That is what a review is all about. The fact that a reviewer has examined all the primary sources and reached a conclusion is the value of a review. Reviews published in peer reviewed journals are excellent secondary sources. ChemistryProf ( talk) 18:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) page 535 "The majority of intervention designs were randomized, controlled trials (RCTs) (n11), and the remaining studies (n 5) had a pretest/posttest no-control-group design." Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 21:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
The article currently says, "The charging of fees for instruction in TM has been criticized by stricter Hindus as unethical..."
The phrase "stricter Hindus" implies that TM is Hindu organization, or possibly an organization of Hindus.
This is false, and clearly only one counterexample is necessary to disprove it. I offer myself as that example. I practice TM but I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends (commonly known as Quakers). If you need an example in the administration or faculty of MUM, I am absolutely certain that there are many non-Hindus there. In fact, in all the years I have been associated with the TMM, I have personally met only a handful of Hindus who practiced TM (I know there are several more around, most of whom live or at least grew up in India).
Furthermore, the TM instruction itself does not turn students into Hindus. Nor is there any connection between any TM organization and any Hindu temple. To summarize, for those who didn't know: TM is non-Hindu. In fact, TM is not even religious. It involves no requirement of a belief in God, for example, so there is no barrier to an atheist learning TM or any of the other TM-associated programs.
Of course, there is some overlap in some programs, such as Yagyas and Vedic Astrology, both of which are similar to counterparts in Hinduism. And the TM puja (which is used as a ceremony of gratitude) has counterparts in Hinduism that are devotional and religious in nature.
I ascribe this overlap to MMY having been formally Hindu (since his teacher represented the Vedic Shankaracharya tradition, which is shared between Hinduism and certain secular Indian philosophies such as Advaita/Vedanta).
I'm sorry if this is confusing because of the overlap, but the bottom line is that neither TM meditators, TM teachers, MUM students, MUM faculty, nor MUM administrators are, in general, Hindus. And, with the possible exceptions noted above, the content of the TM practice and TM philosophy (the Science of Creative Intelligence) [9] [10] are not religious.
Conversely, almost no Hindus in the world would feel comfortable saying they practice TM (since most have not learned it).
Finally, the TM mantras, which are names of gods in Hinduism, are used as meaningless sounds serving as vehicles for transcending in TM. The Vedic philosophies consider gods as equivalent to various aspects of personal and universal consciousness (for example, the three main gods represent the activities of creation, maintenance, and dissolution). Gods are only worshiped in Hinduism, not TM. In TM the mantras are helpful in transcending, which is not a process of prayer or devotion but instead a natural reduction in mental activity resulting in the experience of pure consciousness without thought.
Since I am voluntarily not making significant edits to the article since it is controversial, I would request that someone else remove this misleading phrase. In fact, the article could use a new section that distinguishes the TM technique from Hinduism. I don't think any Hindus would appreciate TM being described as Hindu, since it isn't, even according to them. David Spector 23:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
You're right, I missed that, sorry. How about "Religious Hindus have criticized Maharishi's charging of high fees for instruction as unethical citation needed"? David Spector 01:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
My comments did not reference editors unnamed or otherwise nor is that what I meant. We are dealing with a piece of information that editors attempted to explain albeit in a personal way, and although its easy to get sidetracked with such discussion, no reason to believe editors are not commenting honestly and with attempts to improve understanding, and so also the article. ( olive ( talk) 15:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC))
The article says that this lawsuit declared TM a religion. Hendel v WPEC was dismissed. Am going to delete. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:43, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Will has argued in the past that court documents are primary sources. Had you used a secondary source it might have been more obvious to me that this lawsuit was relevant. As it was, I glanced briefly at the appellate court decision in a civil suit and saw that it was dismissed. And now I'm unable to access the court document that I found online yesterday, so I can't verify what you say. I think you'll need to find a secondary source. It's not obvious that this isn't simply your interpretation. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Will, are you here? Do you want to explain your oft-stated argument that court documents are primary sources? TimidGuy ( talk) 11:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I hope that's helpful. Will Beback talk 23:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Title: Editorial: Is Atheism a Religion? Recent Judicial Perspectives on the Constitutional Meaning of" Religion" Source: Journal of Church and State [0021-969X] Davis yr:2005 vol:47 iss:4 pg:707 Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 00:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this sentence: "A 2003 review that looked at the effects of TM on cognitive function said that many of the 700 studies on TM have been produced by researchers directly associated with the TM movement and/or had not been peer reviewed." I think the part about peer review should be removed, since it's vague and misleading. There are over 350 peer-reviewed studies. One could equally say that there are many peer-reviewed studies. And to highlight this passing statement by prominently putting it at the top in a separate section is a clear violation oF WP:UNDUE. If we can't get agreement to delete, and since it's unlikely that we could find a balancing statement, I would think that the only solution to the NPOV issue created here would be to follow the sentence with one that lists several dozen peer-reviewed journals that have published the research. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
In Addition it should be mentioned that since this single 2003 study was published, there have been numerous studies on TM that have been published in peer-reviewed journals including the following.
Reduced Blood Pressure (Current Hypertension Reports, December 2007) This meta-analysis of 17 published studies from the medical literature (selected from over 100 published studies for their careful experimental design utilizing randomized controlled trials) reported on the effects of stress reduction techniques on elevated blood pressure in about 1000 subjects total. The treatments employed included simple biofeedback, relaxation-assisted biofeedback, progressive muscle relaxation, stress management training, and the Transcendental Meditation program. The results of statistical analyses showed that none of the first 4 treatment approaches demonstrated statistically significant reductions in elevated blood pressure, while the Transcendental Meditation program showed both significant clinical and statistical reductions in blood pressure. Full Article
Improved Quality of Life for Congestive Heart Failure Patients (Ethnicity and Disease, March 2007) This study examined the effects of conventional health education and the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique on measures of heart failure severity and quality of life in a randomized controlled trial of twenty-three older African American men and women with congestive heart failure (CHF). The results indicate that the use of the TM technique may be effective in improving the quality of life and functional capacity of heart failure patients. Full Article
Reduced Metabolic Syndrome (American Medical Association’s Archives of Internal Medicine, June 2006) This 16-week, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial of 103 coronary heart patients found that the Transcendental Meditation technique improved blood pressure and insulin resistance components of the metabolic syndrome as well as cardiac autonomic nervous system tone compared with a control group receiving health education. These results suggest that the TM technique may modulate the physiological response to stress and improve coronary heart disease risk factors. Full Article
Enhanced Longevity (American Journal of Cardiology, May 2005) This study was a first-of-its-kind, long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. Subjects in the study participated in the Transcendental Meditation program; behavioral techniques, such as mindfulness or progressive muscle relaxation; or health education. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years. The study found that the TM program reduced death rates by 23%. Full Article
Reduced Blood Pressure and Use of Hypertensive Medication (American Journal of Hypertension, January 2005) This long-term, clinical trial evaluated 150 men and women, average age 49, with stage I hypertension (average blood pressure 142/95 mm Hg). Blood pressure in the Transcendental Meditation group reduced by nearly 6 mm diastolic pressure and by 3 mm systolic pressure. In contrast, blood pressure in the progressive muscle relaxation group and conventional health education classes reduced by 3 mm diastolic pressure, with no change in systolic pressure. Use of hypertensive medication was also found to significantly decrease in the TM group in comparison with controls. Full Article
Reduced Blood Pressure in At-risk Teens (American Journal of Hypertension, April, 2004) This $1.5 million, four-year, randomized, controlled study found that adolescents at risk for heart disease experienced decreased blood pressure as a result of the daily practice of Transcendental Meditation.
Universities Conducting NIH-funded research on Transcendental Meditation: University of Pennsylvania Effectiveness of Transcendental Meditation on Functional Capacity and Quality of Life of African Americans with Congestive Heart Failure Published in Ethnicity and Disease, Winter 2007 Full Article
Cedars-Sinai Hospital, Los Angeles The effects of Transcendental Meditation on cardiovascular disease in coronary heart disease patients with metabolic syndrome Published in the American Medical Association’s Archives of Internal Medicine, July 2006 Full Article
University of California, Irvine The effects of Transcendental Meditation on brain functioning, stress, and pain as shown by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) Published in NeuroReport, August 2006 Full Article
Howard University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Morehouse School of Medicine, Atlanta The effects of Transcendental Meditation in older African American women at risk for heart disease Findings presented at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology, March 2006
University of Iowa The effects of the multimodality approach of the TM technique and Ayurvedic herbal preparations on coronary disease Findings presented at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology, March 2006
The Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee (1) A study on the effects of Transcendental Meditation on the prevention of hypertension in African Americans; and (2) A study on the effects of Transcendental Meditation on morbidity and mortality in African Americans with heart disease. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.248.178 ( talk) 22:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
In making this edit [27], Doc said this in his edit summary: "these are not different met analysis." Here's what the review says: "Five RCTs assessing the effects of TM® in hypertensive patients were identified. Fivetrials205,206,210,220,221 compared TM® versus HE, and two trials220,221 compared TM® versus PMR. Meta-analyses were conducted for the comparisons TM® versus HE, and TM® versus PMR." This indicates they were separate meta-analyses. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This meta-analysis (Ospina et al. 2007) has been given all of these labels both in discussions here and in the article itself, and I think it's important to distinguish the terms and use the one that most accurately describes the study.
A review (more commonly called a literature review) is a critical evaluation of all the studies in a particular area, weighing the findings and flaws of each of the studies and coming out with overall qualitative conclusions about what the research in that particular area can be said to have found. A review doesn't contribute new research but simply evaluates and summarizes existing research, verbally and qualitatively.
A meta-analysis looks at all the research in an area, carefully evaluates the quality of each of the studies, and (using only the data from studies whose quality is good enough that their data can be considered reliable and valid) combines and re-analyzes those data to draw quantitative conclusions about the findings in an area of study. Ospina et al. is a meta-analysis.
A government report is anything published by the government and may or may not contain research or even be based on research. To refer to this study simply as a "government report" could misrepresent its nature and diminish its importance; I'm sure that's not what we mean to do here. Woonpton ( talk) 18:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The two quotations below:
Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School in Exeter, has said "there is no good evidence that TM has positive effects on children. The data that exist are all deeply flawed."[96]
Educational psychologist Kairen Cullen, associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, speaking of TM in a pediatric setting has said it , "...is a very difficult sample group to access and it would be very hard to provide empirical evidence - any claims would therefore be pretty speculative".[97]
These were removed by Timidguy citing WP:MEDRS However, this was done based on a miss-understanding/reading of WP:MEDRS. They could be removed on this basis perhaps if they were the views of the writer, assuming they were not an expert in the field, however, in this instance the comments are of noted experts/professional in a relevant area. They are simply cited in the popular press.
Please note that WP:MEDRS actually cites the Guardian as a reliable source
I have reverted. Please do not remove without discussion. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuckerj1976 ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) once again this is not just a page on claimed health effects it is dealing with a social movement which is making pseudoscience claims. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Are we sure the logo recently added to the article is the "official" TM logo? I had not seen it before. -- BwB ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Will, this recent graphic decoration to every page of the TM website (which I agree is meaningful in that it shows the "bubble analogy" used to explain the process of transcending) can only be called "Logo of TM.org" if the TMM considers this its logo. Note that a logo is always associated with a company [2], not a website. I have been familiar with the TMM since 1970, and in all that time they have never had an official trademarked logo representing their brand. I would think you need to provide a citation to claim that this is TM's logo. You are certainly correct that this is a graphic decoration associated with the basic design of the tm.org website. You have not shown that it is intended for use as a logo, much less than that it is a logo. Your statement that it is a logo is WP:OR and may not actually be correct. That is why a citation is required for this claim. David Spector 20:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Please stop deleting this. It's a secondary source. It includes 6 studies on TM. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Tucker, note that WP:TRADEMARK says not to use it: "Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, in either article text or citations." Not sure what to do when quoting from Ospina Bond, since they unconventionally used it throughout. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I do not know whether or not the mantras of TM are from a Tantric tradition. The text suggests that they are:
Is it possible to clarify if this reference [6] is a primary source? Is this a book by Pandit Arya? Where could one find a copy of the text? -- BwB ( talk) 12:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC) Can we please have a page number for the Alain Daniélou reference? -- BwB ( talk) 12:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC) Could we also have a page number for the Arthur Avalon book? Is there anywhere to see this text online? -- BwB ( talk) 12:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Can we please have page numbers for the sources mentioned above? -- BwB ( talk) 12:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Made the new edit with a wonderful collection of mantra and monosyllabic dictionaries which unlike the Arthur Avalon version, is completely translated into English. This is helpful since they reveal the texts true tantric character, some dictionaries beginning with statements which state outright their source in the tantras. Thus it is clear, the TM mantras are not Vedic at all, they are Tantric.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 18:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
An editor deleted reference to a review of studies on meditation, describing it as "primary research per WP:MEDRS". http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Transcendental_Meditation&diff=344245529&oldid=344242384] I'm not sure that's correct. I thought that reviews were secondary sources. If so, we should restore this. Will Beback talk 19:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Shapiro has previously been published (in Mindfulness Meditation) My instincts are to try and find a reliable source for this and re-insert, but with a more accurate edit then was placed originally. I shall look. Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 00:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
We are only repeats the conclusions of 3 primary research studies from this paper. How did the paper chose which primary studies they looked at? They say simply "a sample" It appears that they just picked a sample at random... No systematic review of the literature. It was published in the Journal for Meditation and Meditation Research rather than something more well known. The three studies mentioned were by Orme-Johnson who is closely associated with the TM movement. So due to this I am against inclusion. Of course if you went further opinions fell free to ask over at WT:MED. We need to use our editorial judgment in deciding what is a reliable source and what is not. This study is no way approaches the quality of the Cochrane or the AHQR report and should not be given equal weight. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Edited this to clarify exactly what the study says. It does not say "high quality studies". Indeed, it does not comment on the quality of these studies. Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 17:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
IMO, "good quality" may imply qualities in addition to "well-designed", since experimental design is only one aspect of a scientific study. For example, a well-designed study may not be statistically significant as a result of having only two subjects (N=2). For this reason, I would suggest replacing "good quality" by "well-designed". David Spector 20:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
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This review is summarized in the article as follows:
The only thing that the review says about TM is this:
I don't understand. I guess I'll just go ahead and quote from the study. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
What study?--
Kala Bethere (
talk) 15:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Timid moves a sentence within a paragraph without changing the text of that sentence. Kala reverts claiming edit warring and no consensus. What's going on here? -- BwB ( talk) 14:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
So, to come back to the initial question raised above. How is a simple move of a sentence within a paragraph without any change of text considered edit warring? All this talk of COI and sockpuppet is beside the point. -- BwB ( talk) 11:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
"Please show a Wikipedia policy or guideline that says an editor accused, especially unfairly, of sockpuppetry or meat puppetry must stop editing" is tongue in cheek wikilawyering, nothing else, and Wikipedia has a time-honoured tradition of showing people trying this the door directly.
We want no socks, and we want no COI pov pushers, and we have the will and the tools to ban such editors, under WP:DISRUPT, WP:COI, WP:DUCK, WP:UCS and if necessary even WP:IAR. If the letter of policy is made to conflict with the spirit, it is the spirit that is going to win out every time. This is no court of law, and it is no democracy. Ah yes, and WP:ENC. -- dab (𒁳) 11:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
The upshot is "null result". I do not think that a separate article is necessary to point this out. In fact, I understand that there is an ongoing attempt of hiding the upshot in as much text as possible so it won't be staring readers in the face so much. -- dab (𒁳) 11:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
"A 2009 review said that research on Transcendental Meditation has shown specific physiological changes to occur, such as a reduction in respiratory rate, decreased breath volume, a decrease in lactate (associated with stress), a decrease in cortisol, and increases in basal skin resistance."
"EEG research on brain waves has shown an increase in theta waves and a dominant pattern of alpha waves in the frontal and occipital lobes. With long-term practice these changes seen in meditation carry over into activity. These changes may enhance brain integration and reduce emotional reactivity."
Once again, someone is changing a lede paragraph without discussion or consensus, after consensus was already reached on the third paragraph. The "Anderson study" (second one) with the cherry-picked studies actually lists the majority (all but 1) as being compared to "Health Education" controls. Therefore please don't remove this without discussion, esp. on an already consensus-based lede paragraph TimidGuy! It's important to show that subtle physiologic differences are not the result of comparing meditators to someone else resting, twice a day, with eyes closed, with similar expectations, but instead to "Health Education".
We're having problems with people editing these articles not only without consensus, but when we've already reached a consensus on their current form.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:13, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I blew that. I thought that I had remembered that Anderson explicitly said that he was simply looking at reduction and not factoring in controls. I may have been confusing it with the Rainforth meta-analysis. My deep and sincere apologies. Kala, in regard to why certain studies were selected for Anderson's meta-analysis, he describes that process in detail. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This is now in the article twice. Is that a mistake?
• These results were similar to a 2004, review examining the effects of TM on blood pressure which concluded that there was "insufficient good-quality evidence to conclude whether or not TM has a cumulative positive effect on blood pressure." The review said that the RCTs published had important methodological weaknesses and were potentially biased by the affiliation of authors to the TM organization.[62]
I suggest we delete the second occurrence. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:03, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Neither one of these are mentioned in this article? Wondering why as they are extensions of TM. This ref says "The TM® Sidhis (sic) Program, an add-on to the core TM® product, purports to accept such powers as accruing from meditation practice, and specifically seeks to first develop the siddhi of levitation." PMID 16931164 Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 16:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This section is inaccurately named. We are conflating the idea that some mediation techniques are more "advanced" than the TM technique with a group of techniques that are actually called Advanced Techniques. So we have to tile the section to indicate the techniques are "beyond or other than" the initial TM techniqu with out using the term advanced technique. The are two different groups of techniques that are given beyond the TM technique according to the sources, one is Advanced Techniques the other is the TM Sidhi Program. I'll rename the section to reflect this information.( olive ( talk) 22:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
As well the wording is not accurate per the source.( olive ( talk) 22:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
Source: "In the mid seventies Maharishi began training senior staff in advanced techniques." then "By 1977 Maharishi officially focused his attention on more advanced groups of people who underwent TM Sidhi techniques." ( olive ( talk) 22:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
In 2005 Maharishi added a new Advanced Technique, the Night Technique, to the Transcendental Meditation program. Its purpose is to accelerate growth to higher states of consciousness, specifically by taking advantage of our time of sleep to support the growth of enlightenment. The Night Technique is now the first in the sequence of four Advanced Techniques.
This seems excessively long, especially for a verbatim quote. We might add a long quote for an important conclusion, but this is just an aside. We should be able to summarize this in a single sentence. Will Beback talk 11:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Will Beback, Kala Bethere, Doc James, your points here are well taken. If I have the liberty of expressing this in terms that will be meaningful not only to the scientists who might read this article (and a few may indeed do so, regardless of WP's poor reputation), then I will alter the statement in the article and see if it meets with approval. ChemistryProf ( talk) 04:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
The removal of content sourced to this published review is unacceptable. It presents in a more balanced way the results of Ospina Bond's original review. It raises the total number of studies scoring good or better on Jadad. It openly discusses the issues of whether Jadad is appropriate and whether it's possible to double blind meditation studies. It's important to reference their most recent thinking on the topic. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Earlier today I added the following sentence to lede, which was later removed by Kala.
This is a valid sentence to have in the lede. It reflects a topic in the body of the article and show that TM research has received substantial funding over the years. Cannot see any Wiki policy to say it cannot be in the lede. Thanks. -- BwB ( talk) 19:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually no...and its not good to put words in someone else's mouth ... Its so unsanitary. Lets see what Olive actually has to say. We have an article that was stripped of the studies so what is left is a "curiously" negative view of the TM research. At the same time seems the NIH has funded studies on the TM technique multiple times. Those two positions describe the research at this point in time, per this article and based on the many times stated positions of some of the editors here. Content on both of those positions needs to be represented in the lede, and in the article, to accomplish NPOV.( olive ( talk) 23:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC))
Have posted here for any further comments / advice before potential arbitatration: [10] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
This 2009 review is recent and meets Wikipedia guidelines and policies. If the authors of this review surveyed the literature and feel that certain scientific studies are evidence for particular physiological effects, we shouldn't second guess them. This is now the third time that material from a reliable secondary source has been removed. The pediatric review should not have been removed, nor the material sourced to a medical textbook. I restored the material sourced to the medical textbook and am working on rewriting the pediatric material. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually, it's the fourth instance. Kala also removed the JACM review. (And thanks, Doc, for restoring.) TimidGuy ( talk) 12:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
An image of someone doing TM would be great. I have an uncle who does this and gave much of his money to the Maharishi. Also ran for the Natural Law Party of Canada. I am sure he would be happy to have his picture taken if we cannot find another. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The official TM web site has prices for TM. Reference [6] directs to web site. Thanks. Sorry this was me who made the edit. I forge to sign. -- BwB ( talk) 09:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
A full discussion should include prices in other parts of the world otherwise we risk being US centric. ( olive ( talk) 22:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
I was considering taking up the role of teaching again but this was a curtain coming down on that," said Dr. Liddell, who was head of TM Bermuda for 15 years from 1984. "I wasn’t upset or angry but it was a bit like a bomb had dropped." Former TM teacher Frances Eddy said she was "outraged" at the price hike. "It makes it very difficult for teachers to ask for that kind of money and it excludes ordinary people.
Well, if Transcendental Meditation becomes so expensive that fewer people waste their money on it, maybe that isn't such a bad thing?
The Royal Gazette/August 16, 2003 By Benedict Greening
http://www.royalgazette.com/rg/index.jsp?sectionId=55 http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm62.html http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/08/21/transcendental-meditation-too-expensive.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuckerj1976 ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
And I was so looking forward to four part harmony on the Kumbya. Alas, maybe another time! Good team work :-)-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This is an interesting situation. The pediatric review categorizes the Kratter RCT as a TM study, but then in a footnote says that it's not TM but is like TM. I looked at the study and feel it's quite a bit different from TM. In addition, it was only an ERIC publication. So I've not included the findings from this study, which found a benefit to ADHD (improved attention, etc.). TimidGuy ( talk) 11:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
What I am seeing here is two or three editors who reveal in almost every sentence they write on these discussion pages that they have a VERY STRONG NEGATIVE BIAS against TM and its research, and two or three editors, who happen to be TM practitioners and maybe even faculty members at Maharishi University of Management, who appear to be making a genuine effort (though not always succeeding) to create an article that is neutral. This is a condition of imbalance. We do not get a neutral article by including only the few reports and reviews that reach negative conclusions about MEDITATION RESEARCH (not necessarily about the TM technique research) and twist those to state that these negative conclusions refer specifically to the TM research. Either we make an honest effort to reflect the majority of research out there, which means, at the least, covering the relevant conclusions of ALL PEER REVIEWED secondary sources that have data specific to TM. The "relevant conclusions" means, wherever possible, the conclusions that relate specifically to the TM technique, the topic of this article. Not all of those conclusions have to be stated in the abstract or in the summary conclusion section of the source. The summary conclusions in a paper include only those that the authors feel are most central to their stated goal. If their goal was not to compare effects of specific techniques but to lump them together, then they will not include any conclusions about the specific techniques in their summary. On the other hand, their results may show in tables or other data that TM research was uncharacteristic of the whole. In the case of the original AHRQ report, the results showed that the majority of the TM randomized trials scored in the good range, even using the Jadad scale. This was not true of any other meditation technique they included. If we are going to persist in including this government report as a reliable source (and I have stated reasons why we should not), then it is certainly justifiable to include this result of the quality evaluation of TM trials even though it was not mentioned in the conclusions. And we are bound to include all the peer reviewed secondary sources that have findings specific to TM research even if these are not mentioned as major conclusions of the paper. It is not our role as editors to pick and chose what secondary sources suit our fancy. We include all of the ones that have findings that are clearly specific to the TM technique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I am sticking with my comment above. The information about funding from the NIH is an important observation that does not fit the interpretation that researching the TM program is fringe science or pseudoscience. The fact that some of you seem to be locked on that interpretation despite any evidence to the contrary prevents you from seeing that the NIH information is relevant. It's not relevant TO YOU if your minds are already made up, but that is not a neutral POV by any stretch of the imagination. It is absolutely as much by the WP rules to include this point in the lede as it is going by the rules to include a politicized governmental report about many different mental and physical techniques the authors squeezed under the title "meditation," even if this report did include some research on the TM technique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:23, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
We are definitely not in agreement. I have searched the government report for statements like the one currently in the lede. I see nothing similar. Inserting "Transcendental Meditation" and "TM" the way someone has done here, instead of referring to the collective meditation techniques as the report does, is obvious POV and is not appropriate. I will submit another version of these two items, although my feeling is that the government report is a weak source and is not specific enough or scientific enough to be in the article, much less in the lede. ChemistryProf ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, here is a summary of the research that represents the body of work and introduces the government report that some editors are so fond of. Obviously the conclusions of specific reviews will be given in more detail in the research section of the article. References can be added when this is inserted to replace the current discussion of the research in the text of the lede. "Possible effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on physiological, psychological, and individual health measures have been investigated scientifically, as have its effects on society. A significant portion of this research has been funded by government grants from the United States National Institutes of Health, from public funding agencies in other countries, and by private foundations. Several qualitative and quantitative reviews have reported significant changes in a number of these measures during and after practice of the technique. However, a government report reviewing many techniques of meditation concluded that most of the meditation research had used weak methods or was poorly reported." ChemistryProf ( talk) 06:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) I say we stick with what is there now. We could change it to "Research done by the TM movement is generally of poor quality. Independent analysis of the research does not support the claims made by this movement and concludes that TM does not have any properties different than health education / standard relaxation. Well governments has supported research in the past some governments now have policies baring future funding of TM due to its religious and pseudo-scientific nature." Refs can be added latter. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 08:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Will Beback, in answer to your first question, I doubt that this exact statement can be found in a single source. We can give sources for the $20+ million from the NIH and probably for each of the other mentioned funding types. As for the government report, as TimidGuy points out, the report found more positive results for the TM program than it did negative results, so the present statement of the results of the report is something made up by a previous editor. It is nowhere to be found in the report. One analysis of the report failed to find significant increases of BP when compared to a control condition. This result was created in part by an error of data transfer by the authors of the report. This error was caught by several reviewers of the report, but was not corrected by the report's authors. In answer to your question about other reviews finding negative results, I am aware of a review by Canter and Ernst in 2004 that found inconclusive evidence for a reduction of blood pressure with TM. Subsequent reviews that included additional studies have found significant reductions, including the government report we are citing. In answer to your last question, it is not important to say "qualitative and quantitative" in the lead. These terms would mean little to anyone other than a scientist familiar with the distinctions between these types of reviews.
Fladrif and Doc James, the current statement in the lede that is attributed to the government report is fictitious. If you disagree, then please point me to the page and paragraph where it appears in the report. ChemistryProf ( talk) 05:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The results showing a significant effect of the TM technique on BP were from studies using an active control group, progressive muscle relaxation, which itself has been shown to reduce BP. This is a more powerful result than comparison to a usual care control or to a health education control. However, if you read the original papers, it is explained that the health education control was designed as a placebo procedure. The control participants received instruction of the same length and the same amount of instructor attention as the TM group, with enthusiastic HE instructors giving information intended to create the same amount of expectation as in the TM group. The HE group also had periods of quiet time twice a day like the meditation group. So the HE condition was designed as a placebo control. As I mentioned above, one of the reasons the comparison of TM with HE in the AHRQ report found no significant effect is that the authors of the report made significant errors in transferring data from one of the papers to the report's analysis. They also made other errors in this analysis. These errors were pointed out to the authors by three of the report's reviewers but was not corrected in the final report. This is one of several reasons I have mentioned before that make this report a weak source. The Orme-Johnson critique describes many of these weaknesses. So if the original AHRQ report or the later, peer reviewed paper is cited, then to maintain a neutral POV, we need to mention and cite the critique. ChemistryProf ( talk) 18:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James, following is the part of the quote I could not find anywhere in the AHRQ report: "A 2007 review of various meditation practices, most notably Transcendental Meditation, concluded that the definitive health effects of TM cannot be determined as the bulk of scientific evidence was of poor quality." As for the quote you repeated just now, what gives you the right to cherry pick this negative finding and omit the larger number of positive findings listed by
TimidGuy? As for your personal opinion of Orme-Johnson's work, that is your POV, not shared by the scores of peer reviewers of the dozens of articles he has published in respectable journals. Nor is it shared by the NIH, since he has been invited to participate in special symposia organized by them. He is a scientist of considerable renown and not someone that any WP editor can simply dismiss.
ChemistryProf (
talk) 03:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James, I have scanned through this long discussion again, and I do not find the reference or the answers you indicate. Would you please copy them and paste them here? Thanks, this will facilitate any further discussion. ChemistryProf ( talk) 06:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
We've set a high standard for research, even disallowing, for example, a randomized controlled trial published by the AMA and disallowing one published in 2009 with over 300 subjects. So I don't understand how we can possibly include in the article material about the finding of the German report. It wasn't peer reviewed, wasn't published in an academic journal, is not cited in the scientific literature, isn't included in review articles. The evidence in the report is anecdotal. It fails MEDRS on every count. It's anecdotal, dated, and a primary source. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I note that the above section states, Schools in other countries, such as the Netherlands, Australia, India, Ecuador, Thailand, China, Great Britain ...
This would seem to suggest that there is no controversy regarding this in these countries, however, this is not the case. For example ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/14/transcendental-meditation-in-schools) Should this not be cited in the interest of balance? For example:
It all sounds very positive, but the idea of introducing TM into schools is not without controversy. Indeed, for many people it can seem like a kooky child-rearing idea too far. There are questions about whether it is appropriate for children - indeed, whether children can master a practice that involves extended bouts of concentration. Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School in Exeter, says that "there is no good evidence that TM has positive effects on children. The data that exist are all deeply flawed."
Educational psychologist Kairen Cullen, associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, sounds a note of caution. She questions "at what age you could realistically expect a child to engage with this. It would certainly take discipline and require physical and mental control and focus." She does believe that TM can, in general, be a helpful tool, but is "not aware of any empirical research specifically showing the benefits to children. This is a very difficult sample group to access and it would be very hard to provide empirical evidence - any claims would therefore be pretty speculative."
Phillip Hodson, fellow of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, believes that regular meditation could boost children's wellbeing. "Thoughts are psychoactive - as powerful as drugs," he says. "Anything that encourages a child's emotional intelligence would be a positive antidote to our goal-orientated education system. It could also be very useful to give children techniques that they can use in moments of stress."
Hodson doesn't subscribe solely to TM, however, saying that it "is just one of a range of relaxation techniques that can help children - the simplest being controlled breathing". And it is potentially problematic to rely on one form of meditation. "I would query any grand claims that a single technique can change your entire life," he says. "If it could, wouldn't we all be doing it?"
Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 23:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
This is what the reference says if one looks at page four. "Overall it concluded that the results of TM are no greater than health education regarding blood pressure, body weight, heart rate, stress, anger, self-efficacy, cholesterol, dietary intake, or level of physical activity in hypertensive patients. ref name="Ospina p.4"/" It does not say "A meta-analysis of five studies found that the results of TM are no greater". Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 21:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)==Interesting overview of TM== This is an interesting book that gives an overview of the research quality. Commenting that most of the thousands of studies were done by people within the movement, not peer reviewed, not properly controlled and published by MUMs own press. Lola Williamson (2010). Transcendent in America: Hindu-Inspired Meditation Movements as New Religion (New and Alternative Religions). NYU PRESS. p. 100. ISBN 0-8147-9450-5. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) Yes it confirms the above book "Much of the research is now done by members of the TM organization, often at their own Maharishi International University (MIU) in Fairfield, Iowa. Most of it is published in their own publications, where it is not subject to the normal peer review system of scientific journals. A strong motivation to prove the efficacy of TM could bias the findings." And I love James Randi Randi "concludes that the Maharishi has turned unproved and outdated notions of Eastern mysticism into a pseudoscientific mess"" Good find. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 19:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Both the book and article in question meet WIKI criteria for inclusion per: [
[15]], [
[16]], [
[17]] and would not be counter to [
[18]] and [
[19]] amongst a lot of other rules and guidelines. I don't see a problem. I don't understand the first part of statement I am afraid
Tuckerj1976 (
talk) 20:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I should also bring attention to WP:FRINGE especially [ [20]] and a counter to [ [21]]and [ [22]] Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 21:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The Times is factually incorrect in saying that the 1977 court decision found that the TM movement is a religion. Court documents and law review articles say that the issue was a course in TM/SCI taught in five public schools. This course was found to be religious in nature. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Have added a reference from James Randi who is an well known and respected expert in this area ( ie pseudoscience / paranormal ). Will add more from him to provide balance. Much of what he states is the obvious such as the Maharishi assured member of the natural law party that they would win the election and they didn't, that people would fly and no one every has, etc. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Why were the following sentences removed that were sourced to the pediatric review? "Of the 6 TM studies, 5 were randomized controlled trials. A primary outcome of the randomized controlled trials on Transcendental Meditation was the reduction of hypertension and improvement in vascular function relative to health education, as well as reductions in absenteeism and attentional problems." There is no policy or guideline that supports the removal of this sourced content. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. As I believe I've already stated, the study in question does not draw conclusions based on TM alone. Therefore you should not be including conclusions which include other forms of "sitting meditation" since the conclusions are not derived from TM alone.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 17:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Edit conflict
I agree with TimidGuy and Olive here. If the TM results are specifically shown and discussed in the article, it does not matter that the abstract does not mention TM specifically, those results are relevant. The TM results presented in the article are singled out because this WP article is about the TM program, not about all sitting meditation techniques. If it would clarify the matter, we could add a preface to the sentences as follows: "A review of the effects of sitting meditation techniques in adolescents...." However, I am getting the strong impression that Kala Bethere simply does not want to allow any positive results or statements about the TM program no matter what kind of publication is used as the source. This is not good WP editing. We are here to represent the sources as accurately as possible, not to pick only the sources and statements that show negative (or positive) conclusions. And just to clarify a point, all reviews rely on primary sources. That is what a review is all about. The fact that a reviewer has examined all the primary sources and reached a conclusion is the value of a review. Reviews published in peer reviewed journals are excellent secondary sources. ChemistryProf ( talk) 18:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) page 535 "The majority of intervention designs were randomized, controlled trials (RCTs) (n11), and the remaining studies (n 5) had a pretest/posttest no-control-group design." Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 21:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
The article currently says, "The charging of fees for instruction in TM has been criticized by stricter Hindus as unethical..."
The phrase "stricter Hindus" implies that TM is Hindu organization, or possibly an organization of Hindus.
This is false, and clearly only one counterexample is necessary to disprove it. I offer myself as that example. I practice TM but I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends (commonly known as Quakers). If you need an example in the administration or faculty of MUM, I am absolutely certain that there are many non-Hindus there. In fact, in all the years I have been associated with the TMM, I have personally met only a handful of Hindus who practiced TM (I know there are several more around, most of whom live or at least grew up in India).
Furthermore, the TM instruction itself does not turn students into Hindus. Nor is there any connection between any TM organization and any Hindu temple. To summarize, for those who didn't know: TM is non-Hindu. In fact, TM is not even religious. It involves no requirement of a belief in God, for example, so there is no barrier to an atheist learning TM or any of the other TM-associated programs.
Of course, there is some overlap in some programs, such as Yagyas and Vedic Astrology, both of which are similar to counterparts in Hinduism. And the TM puja (which is used as a ceremony of gratitude) has counterparts in Hinduism that are devotional and religious in nature.
I ascribe this overlap to MMY having been formally Hindu (since his teacher represented the Vedic Shankaracharya tradition, which is shared between Hinduism and certain secular Indian philosophies such as Advaita/Vedanta).
I'm sorry if this is confusing because of the overlap, but the bottom line is that neither TM meditators, TM teachers, MUM students, MUM faculty, nor MUM administrators are, in general, Hindus. And, with the possible exceptions noted above, the content of the TM practice and TM philosophy (the Science of Creative Intelligence) [9] [10] are not religious.
Conversely, almost no Hindus in the world would feel comfortable saying they practice TM (since most have not learned it).
Finally, the TM mantras, which are names of gods in Hinduism, are used as meaningless sounds serving as vehicles for transcending in TM. The Vedic philosophies consider gods as equivalent to various aspects of personal and universal consciousness (for example, the three main gods represent the activities of creation, maintenance, and dissolution). Gods are only worshiped in Hinduism, not TM. In TM the mantras are helpful in transcending, which is not a process of prayer or devotion but instead a natural reduction in mental activity resulting in the experience of pure consciousness without thought.
Since I am voluntarily not making significant edits to the article since it is controversial, I would request that someone else remove this misleading phrase. In fact, the article could use a new section that distinguishes the TM technique from Hinduism. I don't think any Hindus would appreciate TM being described as Hindu, since it isn't, even according to them. David Spector 23:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
You're right, I missed that, sorry. How about "Religious Hindus have criticized Maharishi's charging of high fees for instruction as unethical citation needed"? David Spector 01:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
My comments did not reference editors unnamed or otherwise nor is that what I meant. We are dealing with a piece of information that editors attempted to explain albeit in a personal way, and although its easy to get sidetracked with such discussion, no reason to believe editors are not commenting honestly and with attempts to improve understanding, and so also the article. ( olive ( talk) 15:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC))
The article says that this lawsuit declared TM a religion. Hendel v WPEC was dismissed. Am going to delete. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:43, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Will has argued in the past that court documents are primary sources. Had you used a secondary source it might have been more obvious to me that this lawsuit was relevant. As it was, I glanced briefly at the appellate court decision in a civil suit and saw that it was dismissed. And now I'm unable to access the court document that I found online yesterday, so I can't verify what you say. I think you'll need to find a secondary source. It's not obvious that this isn't simply your interpretation. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Will, are you here? Do you want to explain your oft-stated argument that court documents are primary sources? TimidGuy ( talk) 11:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I hope that's helpful. Will Beback talk 23:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Title: Editorial: Is Atheism a Religion? Recent Judicial Perspectives on the Constitutional Meaning of" Religion" Source: Journal of Church and State [0021-969X] Davis yr:2005 vol:47 iss:4 pg:707 Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 00:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this sentence: "A 2003 review that looked at the effects of TM on cognitive function said that many of the 700 studies on TM have been produced by researchers directly associated with the TM movement and/or had not been peer reviewed." I think the part about peer review should be removed, since it's vague and misleading. There are over 350 peer-reviewed studies. One could equally say that there are many peer-reviewed studies. And to highlight this passing statement by prominently putting it at the top in a separate section is a clear violation oF WP:UNDUE. If we can't get agreement to delete, and since it's unlikely that we could find a balancing statement, I would think that the only solution to the NPOV issue created here would be to follow the sentence with one that lists several dozen peer-reviewed journals that have published the research. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
In Addition it should be mentioned that since this single 2003 study was published, there have been numerous studies on TM that have been published in peer-reviewed journals including the following.
Reduced Blood Pressure (Current Hypertension Reports, December 2007) This meta-analysis of 17 published studies from the medical literature (selected from over 100 published studies for their careful experimental design utilizing randomized controlled trials) reported on the effects of stress reduction techniques on elevated blood pressure in about 1000 subjects total. The treatments employed included simple biofeedback, relaxation-assisted biofeedback, progressive muscle relaxation, stress management training, and the Transcendental Meditation program. The results of statistical analyses showed that none of the first 4 treatment approaches demonstrated statistically significant reductions in elevated blood pressure, while the Transcendental Meditation program showed both significant clinical and statistical reductions in blood pressure. Full Article
Improved Quality of Life for Congestive Heart Failure Patients (Ethnicity and Disease, March 2007) This study examined the effects of conventional health education and the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique on measures of heart failure severity and quality of life in a randomized controlled trial of twenty-three older African American men and women with congestive heart failure (CHF). The results indicate that the use of the TM technique may be effective in improving the quality of life and functional capacity of heart failure patients. Full Article
Reduced Metabolic Syndrome (American Medical Association’s Archives of Internal Medicine, June 2006) This 16-week, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial of 103 coronary heart patients found that the Transcendental Meditation technique improved blood pressure and insulin resistance components of the metabolic syndrome as well as cardiac autonomic nervous system tone compared with a control group receiving health education. These results suggest that the TM technique may modulate the physiological response to stress and improve coronary heart disease risk factors. Full Article
Enhanced Longevity (American Journal of Cardiology, May 2005) This study was a first-of-its-kind, long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. Subjects in the study participated in the Transcendental Meditation program; behavioral techniques, such as mindfulness or progressive muscle relaxation; or health education. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years. The study found that the TM program reduced death rates by 23%. Full Article
Reduced Blood Pressure and Use of Hypertensive Medication (American Journal of Hypertension, January 2005) This long-term, clinical trial evaluated 150 men and women, average age 49, with stage I hypertension (average blood pressure 142/95 mm Hg). Blood pressure in the Transcendental Meditation group reduced by nearly 6 mm diastolic pressure and by 3 mm systolic pressure. In contrast, blood pressure in the progressive muscle relaxation group and conventional health education classes reduced by 3 mm diastolic pressure, with no change in systolic pressure. Use of hypertensive medication was also found to significantly decrease in the TM group in comparison with controls. Full Article
Reduced Blood Pressure in At-risk Teens (American Journal of Hypertension, April, 2004) This $1.5 million, four-year, randomized, controlled study found that adolescents at risk for heart disease experienced decreased blood pressure as a result of the daily practice of Transcendental Meditation.
Universities Conducting NIH-funded research on Transcendental Meditation: University of Pennsylvania Effectiveness of Transcendental Meditation on Functional Capacity and Quality of Life of African Americans with Congestive Heart Failure Published in Ethnicity and Disease, Winter 2007 Full Article
Cedars-Sinai Hospital, Los Angeles The effects of Transcendental Meditation on cardiovascular disease in coronary heart disease patients with metabolic syndrome Published in the American Medical Association’s Archives of Internal Medicine, July 2006 Full Article
University of California, Irvine The effects of Transcendental Meditation on brain functioning, stress, and pain as shown by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) Published in NeuroReport, August 2006 Full Article
Howard University School of Medicine, Washington, D.C. Morehouse School of Medicine, Atlanta The effects of Transcendental Meditation in older African American women at risk for heart disease Findings presented at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology, March 2006
University of Iowa The effects of the multimodality approach of the TM technique and Ayurvedic herbal preparations on coronary disease Findings presented at the annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology, March 2006
The Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee (1) A study on the effects of Transcendental Meditation on the prevention of hypertension in African Americans; and (2) A study on the effects of Transcendental Meditation on morbidity and mortality in African Americans with heart disease. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.248.178 ( talk) 22:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
In making this edit [27], Doc said this in his edit summary: "these are not different met analysis." Here's what the review says: "Five RCTs assessing the effects of TM® in hypertensive patients were identified. Fivetrials205,206,210,220,221 compared TM® versus HE, and two trials220,221 compared TM® versus PMR. Meta-analyses were conducted for the comparisons TM® versus HE, and TM® versus PMR." This indicates they were separate meta-analyses. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This meta-analysis (Ospina et al. 2007) has been given all of these labels both in discussions here and in the article itself, and I think it's important to distinguish the terms and use the one that most accurately describes the study.
A review (more commonly called a literature review) is a critical evaluation of all the studies in a particular area, weighing the findings and flaws of each of the studies and coming out with overall qualitative conclusions about what the research in that particular area can be said to have found. A review doesn't contribute new research but simply evaluates and summarizes existing research, verbally and qualitatively.
A meta-analysis looks at all the research in an area, carefully evaluates the quality of each of the studies, and (using only the data from studies whose quality is good enough that their data can be considered reliable and valid) combines and re-analyzes those data to draw quantitative conclusions about the findings in an area of study. Ospina et al. is a meta-analysis.
A government report is anything published by the government and may or may not contain research or even be based on research. To refer to this study simply as a "government report" could misrepresent its nature and diminish its importance; I'm sure that's not what we mean to do here. Woonpton ( talk) 18:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The two quotations below:
Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at the Peninsula Medical School in Exeter, has said "there is no good evidence that TM has positive effects on children. The data that exist are all deeply flawed."[96]
Educational psychologist Kairen Cullen, associate fellow of the British Psychological Society, speaking of TM in a pediatric setting has said it , "...is a very difficult sample group to access and it would be very hard to provide empirical evidence - any claims would therefore be pretty speculative".[97]
These were removed by Timidguy citing WP:MEDRS However, this was done based on a miss-understanding/reading of WP:MEDRS. They could be removed on this basis perhaps if they were the views of the writer, assuming they were not an expert in the field, however, in this instance the comments are of noted experts/professional in a relevant area. They are simply cited in the popular press.
Please note that WP:MEDRS actually cites the Guardian as a reliable source
I have reverted. Please do not remove without discussion. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuckerj1976 ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
(undent) once again this is not just a page on claimed health effects it is dealing with a social movement which is making pseudoscience claims. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Are we sure the logo recently added to the article is the "official" TM logo? I had not seen it before. -- BwB ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Will, this recent graphic decoration to every page of the TM website (which I agree is meaningful in that it shows the "bubble analogy" used to explain the process of transcending) can only be called "Logo of TM.org" if the TMM considers this its logo. Note that a logo is always associated with a company [2], not a website. I have been familiar with the TMM since 1970, and in all that time they have never had an official trademarked logo representing their brand. I would think you need to provide a citation to claim that this is TM's logo. You are certainly correct that this is a graphic decoration associated with the basic design of the tm.org website. You have not shown that it is intended for use as a logo, much less than that it is a logo. Your statement that it is a logo is WP:OR and may not actually be correct. That is why a citation is required for this claim. David Spector 20:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Please stop deleting this. It's a secondary source. It includes 6 studies on TM. TimidGuy ( talk) 11:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Tucker, note that WP:TRADEMARK says not to use it: "Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, in either article text or citations." Not sure what to do when quoting from Ospina Bond, since they unconventionally used it throughout. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I do not know whether or not the mantras of TM are from a Tantric tradition. The text suggests that they are:
Is it possible to clarify if this reference [6] is a primary source? Is this a book by Pandit Arya? Where could one find a copy of the text? -- BwB ( talk) 12:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC) Can we please have a page number for the Alain Daniélou reference? -- BwB ( talk) 12:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC) Could we also have a page number for the Arthur Avalon book? Is there anywhere to see this text online? -- BwB ( talk) 12:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Can we please have page numbers for the sources mentioned above? -- BwB ( talk) 12:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Made the new edit with a wonderful collection of mantra and monosyllabic dictionaries which unlike the Arthur Avalon version, is completely translated into English. This is helpful since they reveal the texts true tantric character, some dictionaries beginning with statements which state outright their source in the tantras. Thus it is clear, the TM mantras are not Vedic at all, they are Tantric.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 18:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
An editor deleted reference to a review of studies on meditation, describing it as "primary research per WP:MEDRS". http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Transcendental_Meditation&diff=344245529&oldid=344242384] I'm not sure that's correct. I thought that reviews were secondary sources. If so, we should restore this. Will Beback talk 19:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Shapiro has previously been published (in Mindfulness Meditation) My instincts are to try and find a reliable source for this and re-insert, but with a more accurate edit then was placed originally. I shall look. Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 00:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
We are only repeats the conclusions of 3 primary research studies from this paper. How did the paper chose which primary studies they looked at? They say simply "a sample" It appears that they just picked a sample at random... No systematic review of the literature. It was published in the Journal for Meditation and Meditation Research rather than something more well known. The three studies mentioned were by Orme-Johnson who is closely associated with the TM movement. So due to this I am against inclusion. Of course if you went further opinions fell free to ask over at WT:MED. We need to use our editorial judgment in deciding what is a reliable source and what is not. This study is no way approaches the quality of the Cochrane or the AHQR report and should not be given equal weight. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Edited this to clarify exactly what the study says. It does not say "high quality studies". Indeed, it does not comment on the quality of these studies. Tuckerj1976 ( talk) 17:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
IMO, "good quality" may imply qualities in addition to "well-designed", since experimental design is only one aspect of a scientific study. For example, a well-designed study may not be statistically significant as a result of having only two subjects (N=2). For this reason, I would suggest replacing "good quality" by "well-designed". David Spector 20:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)