![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Sorry, again getting a little messy: Susan Blackmore's article here:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/new%20scientist%201991.htm
I think we agree it needs to be included and nodoubt along with other arguments about a TM research. Can anyone think of any sensible objections why not? Please, try and use WIKI policies and guidelines sensibly :-) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
The7thdr (
talk •
contribs) 18:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Having reviewed WIKI policy I request that the counter to the cult label by Orm Kohnson be removed form this article. Not only may this be compromised by his close association with the TM movement but the material is self published and fform his personal website. I quote:
Self-published sources (online and paper)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.[nb 4]
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.
Can I also point out that Orm-Johnson, needs to be excluded based on the following guideline:
Extremist and fringe sources See also: Questionable sources, Fringe theories, and Pseudoscience and related fringe theories
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudo-academic,[3] or extremist may be used as sources of information about those organisations or individuals, especially in articles about those organisations or individuals, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
1. it is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
An individual extremist or fringe source may be entirely excluded if there is no independent evidence that it is prominent enough for mention. Fringe and extremist sources must not be used to obscure or describe the mainstream view, nor used to indicate a fringe theory's level of acceptance.
While I except that if we excluded all of his research on this basis the article would have no research at at, one would have to throw doubt on using his personal webpage as source considering he believes - and thinks he can provide evidence to support- such paranormal activities as:
Yogic Flying and that people have occult powers which allow them to alter other peoples actions at a distance. These are of course all fringe theories and have been documented as such in all of the mainstream media and academia. http://books.google.com/books?id=xzCK6-Kqs6QC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN01/wn092801.html http://liberator.net/articles/StosselBelief2.html http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/radin2002.htm
The7thdr ( talk) 21:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Um..that didn't work. oh well, a direct link it is than: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gr4snwg7iaEC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=orm+johnson+pseudo+science&source=bl&ots=bCwD7MKBVp&sig=iQRXjf-GVu5Y356LeeU8jyvQtIU&hl=en&ei=6dlsSqLbC-KgjAf74uW2Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, needed a break here - this is getting a bit messy. Anyway, i have cited WIKI guidelines and policey as to why it must be deleted. Counter or supporting guidleines that would keep it? The7thdr ( talk) 18:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The research of Orme-Johnson appears to be on the physiologic reactions to Transcendental Meditation. That doesn't appear to related to the sociological categorization of TM, which is what the "cult" discussion involves. If he has published any papers on the presence or absence of cultic aspects of TM then that'd help establish his expertise that area. Will Beback talk 23:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Replace OJ content until consensus for removal
Talk page discussion does not indicate there is agreement for removal of this content. Until we have agreement the text should stay in place. Without this content the section violates NPOV. As well the study of cult is a sociological, psychological study. Study of the mind and study of the "culture " out of which cults arise .... Orme Johnson is a professional in the field of Psychology. The content is Wikipedia compliant.( olive ( talk) 16:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
In summary: The Otis study is not peer reviewed and was not published independent of the researcher. The paper was published in a book published by Otis himself. Wikipedia policy verifiability strongly advises that peer review and independent notable publication be a standard for inclusion in Wikipedia. Peer review helps ensure a study is reliable, a guideline, while non peer review studies mean the scientific community has not vetted the study as is done with a review by a jury of peers as a prerequisite for acceptance to publication. The study is over 30 years old, and still has not been published.
In this instance the number of peer reviewed studies on the positive effects number in the 350 to 400 range. Peer reviewed studies on the negative effects of TM are significantly lower. This makes the positive TM studies more mainstream or at least in the majority than the negative effect papers. Add to that one non peer reviewed paper, the Otis study. In no way can that study be considered significant since in terms of research papers published it constitutes a tiny minority, and is therefore fringe to the mainstream body of research. Selecting this paper for inclusion requires “cherry picking”- a point of view, and adding it would probably violate WP:NPOV.
The paper is a tiny minority so its inclusion also violates WP:Weight, and the amount of text given to the study in the present inclusion in respect to the other peer reviewed studies in the article goes over the top in terms of violating WP:Weight.
I have suggested that other peer reviewed studies indicating negative effects of the TM technique be found and considered and in fact that article already has some.
It would seem we are at an impasse. Since there are other studies in the recent addition made by 7th we should also look at, I would suggest we move on. I suggest a poll to assess consensus and agreement of the different options. Alternately or subsequently we can go to informal mediation and onward if needed.
As an aside: I have a sense of humour as I’m sure other editors here do. I am also have no interest in any of these techniques as regards to my own belief systems, and don’t mind jokes at all. I do mind ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies that derail discussion are disruptive to the process and have created a low level but constant and relatively consistent level of incivilty, and sense of harassment, both behavioural policy violations.
Perhaps an outside eye could help us work through this concerns.( olive ( talk) 18:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC))
Thanks BWB.. No I am not hostile.. I do feel it important in a discussion to make sure the points I make are "heard" correctly. In this kind of discussion environment one mistake not corrected can lead to multiple misunderstandings. Since I have been aware of certain ArbCom cases... I left 7th information he may not have been aware of. ( olive ( talk) 18:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
Request for agreement/consensus on inclusion of Otis study: Editors can note their preferences regarding the inclusion of the Otis study underneath the appropriate option.
Please add other options if needed.
The following options have been suggested:
1.Leave text recently added, in place, as is.
2.Add single sentence on Otis study noting it is not peer reviewed.
3.Remove the Otis study, and consider other studies that may be more Wikipedia compliant.
4. Consider adding reliable, verifiable secondary source that references the Otis study, and begin possible changeover of TM research to secondary sources.
5. Remember what I said above: "THERE ARE LIES, DAMN LIES AND THERE ARE STATISTICS." Therefore, I will repeat my suggestion made above: How about a compromise? Cite the Otis study AND disclose the fact that it is NOT peer-reviewed AND describe the primary flaws in its design and methods of data analysis. Is this discussion about relentlessly pushing the research that supports your point of view or is it about making an attempt to get to the truth of the matter? I have found that much of the time it is not rocket science. A resonably intelligent person with some background can tell if there are major flaws in logic, study design or analysis.-- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 21:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Little flower... you make some good points and I think a compromise of some sort is possible. Disclosing that a study is not peer reviewed may border on OR, so that option may not work. Citing a secondary source may be all we could do. Its worth thinking about.( olive ( talk) 17:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
Little flower - i am sure it is an oversight, but writing a response ALL IN BOLD is considered very bad form :)
The7thdr (
talk) 21:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Comments
I do not agree in taking part in this vote - when MUMhas managed to bring a bunch of TMers to the page. Sorry, this is a game I will not play. inclusion or exclusion will be based on argument above while refereeing to WIKI guidelines and Policies. This is not an entry on WTBDWK but an article about a product claiming to have health benefits - often very chronic and life threatening disease and illnesses. The7thdr ( talk) 19:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Discussion has become circular and highly repetitive, and we are at an impasse. A request for consensus or agreement on the different possible solutions to the issue if used correctly and carefully can give us insights into where editors stand on the points raised. No consensus is binding and no poll dictates a change will be made in an article. However, such a poll as this coming at a point of impasse and prior to mediation may give us and the mediator insights into what is going on here. No one has to take part, but doing so with the understanding that nothing this poll indicates is binding can only help clear away the days of sometimes confusing discussion and possibly will shed light on a solution. Once we can see where editors stand as we focus in on the more acceptable solutions, a request for consesus on the article will have more chance of success.( olive ( talk) 17:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
Its good that these points about polls are clarified. Some editors may not realize that Wiki is not a democracy and guidelines have priority over voting. However, when a discussion ranges over several pages it is one way for us to take a breath and assess the situation. Taken in its proper context I think its a good thing.
I agree with Olive, And yes, 7th I was saying that we have been discussing this for days, so it is a good idea to have a poll, pople are free to take part or not, but I like to get a clear perspective on everyone's position. -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 20:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid the discussion is not circular at all or indeed that it has reached an impasse. The truth is that certain editors have said that OTIS cannot be used because it does not meet wiki policies regarding referencing. Repeatedly, said editors have mentioned it is not peer reviewed and also in the minority of such research. It has been shown by myself and others that that the first is incorrect and does not exclude it and the second is incorrect. Basically the argument has been "won" by all rational discourse and referring to wiki guidelines and policies (indeed, i have shown that it is the manner in which the"pro" TM literature is presented is in breach of wiki polices) by those who wish to keep otis. Because this is not in the interests of the TM movement and multi billion dollar profit making group of companies and trade marks, accusation are being made the debate is |stalled" It is not stalled but seems to be finished.
The7thdr (
talk) 18:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The Issues: Are There historical precedents for the idea that individuals influence each other at a distancs?
Is there scientific evidence for the Maharishi Effect: Does the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program improve the quality of life in society?
Rationale for the Maharishi Effect
Summary of Key Studies
The Evidence:
The Maharishi Effect is a phase transition to a more orderly and harmonious state of life, as measured by decreased crime, violence, accidents, and illness, and improvements in economic conditions and other social indicators. The scientists who discovered this effect named in honor of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who predicted 50 years ago that only a small fraction of the population participating in the Transcendental Meditation program would be sufficient to improve the quality of life and the whole society. During the past 31 years, this transformation of society has been documented scientifically, first at the city level, then at state and national levels, and then at the global level-the Global Maharishi Effect.
It has been found that the proportion of members of a society necessary to generate the Maharishi Effect is 1% practicing the Transcendental Meditation program or only the square root or 1% participating in the group practice of the TM-Sidhi program. This proportion is so small that the beneficial effects on society of the Maharishi Effect cannot be accounted for by behavioral interactions of the participants with other members of society. Instead, the results indicate a field effect, in which an influence of coherence produced by the participants radiates throughout the society.
There have been 50 studies showing that the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program (which includes Yogic Flying) improves the quality of life in the larger society; the findings of which have been published in leading peer-reviewed scientific journals and presented and published in the proceedings of professional conferences.
Variables assessed in these studies include armed conflict, crime rate, violent fatalities (homicides, suicides, and motor vehicle fatalities), economic indicators, and broad quality of life indices which incorporate the above variables as well as rates of notifiable diseases, hospital admissions, infant mortality, divorce, cigarette and alcohol consumption, and GNP. Effects for each variable or for overall indices are in the direction of improved quality of life.
Download Word document list of 60 research and review papers on 51 studies on the Maharishi Effect. (click here)
Download a PDF of a recently published study on the Maharishi Effect reducing war: Davies, J. L. and C. N. Alexander. “Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact Assessment analysis of the Lebanon war.” Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 2005, 17: 285-338. (click here )
Link to new book on the application of the Maharishi Effect to create world peace: "Victory Before War". (click here)
Rationale for the Maharishi Effect in the Perennial Philosophy in the Social Sciences in Physics
Some Conceptual Precedents for a Field Theoretic View of Consciousness from the Perennial Philosophy, Social Sciences, and Quantum Physics
David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. February 4, 200
It seems that many editors here miss-understand the Peer Review process: the following links may help clarify. However, before continuing can I point out that if many editors here had their way, than The Molecular Structure of Nucleic Acids: A Structure for Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid [16] (the study by Watson and Crick which defined the double helix structure of DNA) would not only not be allowed as a citation in any WIKI article but the very nature of DNA would be considered in doubt!!!! http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/42/2/373
The7thdr ( talk) 18:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Our job is not to investigate the concerns and problems that arise with the peer review process.Our concern is to write an encyclopedia which is not a place for original thought or research. Nor can we rewrite Wikipedia to suit our needs.(
olive (
talk) 19:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
In my mind the question is do we devote a paragraph to each piece of research conducted on TM?
Once again I will point out that these studies seem to deal with a lot of the same issues that Otis Study deals with and yet receive less column space than the Otis study.
Eppley K, Abrams A, Shear J. Differential effects of relaxation techniques on trait anxiety: a meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1989, 45: 957-74
Haratani T, Henmi T. Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health of industrial workers. Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, 1990, 32: 656
I would argue that they are better studies and more relevant to the article on TM than the Otis study. I am not suggesting that we remove the Otis study just keep it in proportion in relevance to other more authoritative studies.
Also it would be good to add something about this study
Ottoson, J-O. Swedish National Health Board Report on Transcendental Meditation. 1977; Socialstyrelesen D: nr SN3_9_1194/73
-- Uncreated ( talk) 22:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
In a 1976 study published in The Lancet, seven hypertensive patients learned the Transcendental Meditation technique with six patients showing significant reductions in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure (BP) during the first three months of meditation practice. During the second three months of the six month study, three of the patients continued to show reductions of systolic and diastolic blood pressure. [45]
Another study published in the Lancet in 1977 which involved 20 hypertensive patients, found that the Transcendental Meditation technique was associated with a significant reduction of systolic blood pressure and pulse rate in the first 3 months of practice, but that this effect did not continue for most of the patients during the second three months of the six month study, which on average showed no significant change of BP from baseline values during that second three month time period. [46]
In 2005 the American Journal of Cardiology published a review of two studies that looked at stress reduction with the Transcendental Meditation technique and mortality among patients receiving treatment for high blood pressure.[47] This study was a long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years and found that the group practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique had death rates that were reduced by 23%. Also in 2005, the American Journal of Hypertension published the results of a study that found the Transcendental Meditation technique may be useful as an adjunct in the long-term treatment of hypertension among African-Americans.[48]. However Dr. Peter Fenwick points out that the mean changes were only 10 millimetres Hg systolic and just over 6 mmHg for the diastolic, leaving the study population in high-risk category [49]
In 2006 a study involving 103 subjects published in the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine found that coronary heart disease patients who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique for 16 weeks showed improvements in blood pressure, insulin resistance, and autonomic nervous system tone, compared with a control group of patients who received health education.[50]
The American Heart Association has published two studies on the Transcendental Meditation technique. In 2000, the association's journal, Stroke, published a study involving 127 subjects that found that, on average, the hypertensive, adult subjects who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique daily experienced reduced thickening of coronary arteries, thereby decreasing the risk of heart attack and stroke. After six to nine months, carotid intima-media thickness decreased in the group that was practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique as compared with matched control subjects.[51] Also, in 1995 the association's journal Hypertension published the results of a randomized, controlled trial in which a group of older African-Americans practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique demonstrated a significant reduction in blood pressure.[52]
Also in 2006, a functional MRI study of 24 patients conducted at the University of California at Irvine, and published in the journal NeuroReport, found that the long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique may reduce the affective/motivational dimension of the brain's response to pain..[53]
In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of meditation research, conducted by researchers at the University of Alberta Evidence-based Practice Center. The report reviewed 813 studies, of which 230 were studies of TM or TM-Sidhi..[54] The report concluded that "[t]he therapeutic effects of meditation practices cannot be established based on the current literature," and "[f]irm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.(p. 6) [55]
In 2008 researchers at the University of Kentucky conducted a meta-analysis of nine qualifying RCT published studies which used Transcendental Meditation to address patients with hypertension, and found that on average across all nine studies the practice of TM was associated with approximate reductions of 4.7 mm (0 in) Hg systolic blood pressure and 3.2 mm (0 in) Hg diastolic blood pressure. The researchers concluded that "...Sustained blood pressure reductions of this magnitude are likely to significantly reduce risk for cardiovascular disease." The study was published in the March 2008 issue of the American Journal of Hypertension.[56] Using the Jadad scale, the researchers found that of the nine studies evaluated, three were of high quality with a score of 75% or greater, three were of acceptable quality, and three were of suboptimal quality.[57]
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[63]
A 1977 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychology showed reduced anxiety in practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation technique compared to controls who relaxed passively.[64] A 1989 meta-analysis published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology compared 146 independent studies on the effect of different meditation and relaxation techniques in reducing trait anxiety. Transcendental Meditation was found to produce a larger effect than other forms of meditation and relaxation in the reduction of trait anxiety. Additionally, it was concluded that the difference between Transcendental Meditation and the other meditation and relaxation techniques appeared too large to be accounted for by the expectation effect.[65]
A 1990 study published in the Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, conducted at Sumitomo Heavy Industries by the Japanese Ministry of Labour and others, looked at Transcendental Meditation and its effect on mental health in industrial workers. In the study 447 employees learned the Transcendental Meditation technique and 321 employees served as controls. After a 5-month period the researchers found significant decreases in major physical complaints, impulsiveness, emotional instability, and anxiety amongst the meditators compared to controls. The meditators also showed significant decreases in digestive problems, depression, tendency toward psychosomatic disease, insomnia, and smoking.[66]
Studies have suggested a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and possible health-related physiological states, including improvement in lung function for patients with asthma, [37] reduction of high blood pressure,[38] an effect the researchers termed "younger biological age,"[39] decreased insomnia,[40] reduction of high cholesterol,[41] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[42] decreased outpatient visits,[42] decreased cigarette smoking,[43] decreased alcohol use,[43] and decreased anxiety.[44]
Research funding from the NIH
As of 2004[update] the National Institutes of Health (NIH) had spent more than $20 million funding research on the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on heart disease[5]. In 1999 the NIH awarded a grant of nearly $8 million to Maharishi University of Management to establish the first research center specializing in natural preventive medicine for minorities in the U.S.[73] The research institute, called the Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, was inaugurated on October 11, 1999, at the University's Department of Physiology and Health in Fairfield, Iowa.[74]
Sorry Fadrfi , but I can't agree. The research on the TM technique is extensive and such numbers of studies is highly unusual to mediation techniques, and so highly notable. You are summarizing, but in fact the research on the technique needs to be outlined in terms of specific references to specific topics since each topic area is by itself quite notable should be given the weight due its notable feature.(
olive (
talk) 16:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
That is a good idea, I think --
Luke Warmwater101 (
talk) 04:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
While the teachng of TM may not be relevant to the matter of religion and spirituality, it is relevant to TM, and we should find someplace for the assertion. Popularity? Unfortunately, the history section is divided into themese rather time periods, and the rest of "Populatiry" concerns much old events. Will Beback talk 03:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
The tags added in the last few days have been added without foundation. This article is not untended and is under close scrutiny and any sources that are seen by the editors here as being weak can be adjusted and changed. In other words please specify the source that is a concern rather than add tags to the article. (Copied comment TM-Sidhi article).( olive ( talk) 18:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC))
I would also like to remove this sentence (below) which uses a personal web site [ [6]] as a citation:
There is also this sentence quoting Ozzie Osborne in the article:
This Ozzy sentence has a valid source however to be fair shouldn’t we also include quotes from the members of the Beatles, Mike Love, Deepak, Andy Kaufman, Shirley Mclain etc., if they can be found and reliably sourced? Or do we just want to remove all these quotes? -- Kbob ( talk) 02:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Will and we should remove the recent additions where people are quoted with negative remarks. It just makes the whole popularity section unbalanced.-- Uncreated ( talk) 05:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I quite follow all the points in this discussion of the "Celebrity" section. However, it is indisputable that all three of the quotes currently included in that section are negative. To present a balanced viewpoint shouldn't there be three positive comments as well? -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 20:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've started a new section an effort to refocus this discussion on the first of the topics that was being dealt with in the last few days, the Otis study.
Wikipedia operates on policies and guidelines not rules and restrictions: The following text from the reliability guideline notes the importance of peer review. Peer review also helps establish verifiability of the research. So no there is no "rule that says you can't add non peer reviewed research. There are however clear policies, and guidelines that advise as to what is acceptable and preferable in an article.
From: WP:NOR
Material that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable; this means published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
I cannot support opening the door on this article to non peer reviewed research. If you open the door for this kind of study you open the door for the over 400 non peer reviewed studies done on TM, and any other non peer reviewed study. Right now the studies here are peer reviewed and appear in accepted independent publications. S
The fact that there is a single study of this kind is rather, than a reason for inclusion, is in actuality a reason for exclusion:
From WP:NPOV
The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research. Jimbo Wales has said of this:
* If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; * If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
* If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.
Attempts to use a non peer reviewed study when there is only one or a few of its kind, and when is as outdated as this one is, is cherry picking information, and requires a POV and so also becomes WP:OR. As I suggested before, I'm not against including legitimate peer reviewed research that is shows negative responses to TM. I am against loosening the policies and guidelines so that in the future we have more problems with this contentious article that we do now.
The discussion on the legitimacy of the researchers and the research is a red herring in terms of scientific research. Once again, peer review and the publication gives research and the researchers its legitimacy its reliability and its verifiability.
I have no problem with neutral editors and admins looking at this study, or at the tenor of discussion on this talk page, on any, and all of; WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard,RfC, Informal mediation, or Mediation.( olive ( talk) 19:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC))(
Regarding the Otis study: "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics." (Mark Twain) It is a constant existential dilemma. How about a compromise. Cite the Otis study AND disclose the fact that it is NOT peer-reviewed AND describe the primary flaws in its design and methods of data analysis. -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 22:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
1 - The article is already filled with none peer reviewed material. See Orm Johnson's website and the fact that he uses two gradate "essays" to support his argument.
2 - Otis is not a "minority view". It is a piece of research never repeated; valid research from a prominent researcher, published in reliable source is not a minority view - it is simply research not repeated. Interesting however, considering only the TM movement would now have access to the client data, it has not been repeated by MUM?
3 - it is not "outdated" it is the only piece of research of its kind on TM You keep saying it outdated/been replaced. by what study? As Your Orm Johnson says on his personal website again - although using it as a criticism:
It is telling that this widely quoted paper has not been replicated in the 35 years since the data were collected or the 23 years since it was published.
That he confuses the fact that HAS NOT BEEN repeated with Lack of replication (a very different in research - although perhaps this is deliberate on his behalf)is telling as to his entire "critique" - but that is another matter.
4 The Otis study is cited in research paper after research paper and academic publication after academic publication.
The above is only a brief response but happy to dicuss in detail if you seek to take to moderation. The7thdr ( talk) 22:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Medical research
In a 1975 study published in the journal Respiration, twenty one patients with bronchial asthma (who were excluded for significant emphysema by single breath diffusing capacity for carbon monoxide) were studied in a six month RCT designed study (with the researchers but not the patients blind to the treatment modality) using the Transcendental Meditation technique. The study employed a crossover trial format, using reading as a crossover control. Based on the marked reduction in asthma symptom-severity duration, a statistically significant improvement of pulmonary function test abnormalities (in raw measured values of cm/H2O/liter/sec determined using spirometry and body plethysmography), and from subject and physician evaluations, the researchers concluded that the practice of the TM technique is a useful adjunct in the treatment of asthma. [37]
In a 1976 study published in The Lancet, seven hypertensive patients learned the Transcendental Meditation technique with six patients showing significant reductions in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure (BP) during the first three months of meditation practice. During the second three months of the six month study, three of the patients continued to show reductions of systolic and diastolic blood pressure. [45]
Another study published in the Lancet in 1977 which involved 20 hypertensive patients, found that the Transcendental Meditation technique was associated with a significant reduction of systolic blood pressure and pulse rate in the first 3 months of practice, but that this effect did not continue for most of the patients during the second three months of the six month study, which on average showed no significant change of BP from baseline values during that second three month time period. [46]
In 2005 the American Journal of Cardiology published a review of two studies that looked at stress reduction with the Transcendental Meditation technique and mortality among patients receiving treatment for high blood pressure.[47] This study was a long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years and found that the group practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique had death rates that were reduced by 23%. Also in 2005, the American Journal of Hypertension published the results of a study that found the Transcendental Meditation technique may be useful as an adjunct in the long-term treatment of hypertension among African-Americans.[48]. However Dr. Peter Fenwick points out that the mean changes were only 10 millimetres Hg systolic and just over 6 mmHg for the diastolic, leaving the study population in high-risk category [49]
In 2006 a study involving 103 subjects published in the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine found that coronary heart disease patients who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique for 16 weeks showed improvements in blood pressure, insulin resistance, and autonomic nervous system tone, compared with a control group of patients who received health education.[50]
The American Heart Association has published two studies on the Transcendental Meditation technique. In 2000, the association's journal, Stroke, published a study involving 127 subjects that found that, on average, the hypertensive, adult subjects who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique daily experienced reduced thickening of coronary arteries, thereby decreasing the risk of heart attack and stroke. After six to nine months, carotid intima-media thickness decreased in the group that was practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique as compared with matched control subjects.[51] Also, in 1995 the association's journal Hypertension published the results of a randomized, controlled trial in which a group of older African-Americans practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique demonstrated a significant reduction in blood pressure.[52]
Also in 2006, a functional MRI study of 24 patients conducted at the University of California at Irvine, and published in the journal NeuroReport, found that the long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique may reduce the affective/motivational dimension of the brain's response to pain..[53]
In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of meditation research, conducted by researchers at the University of Alberta Evidence-based Practice Center. The report reviewed 813 studies, of which 230 were studies of TM or TM-Sidhi..[54] The report concluded that "[t]he therapeutic effects of meditation practices cannot be established based on the current literature," and "[f]irm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.(p. 6) [55]
In 2008 researchers at the University of Kentucky conducted a meta-analysis of nine qualifying RCT published studies which used Transcendental Meditation to address patients with hypertension, and found that on average across all nine studies the practice of TM was associated with approximate reductions of 4.7 mm (0 in) Hg systolic blood pressure and 3.2 mm (0 in) Hg diastolic blood pressure. The researchers concluded that "...Sustained blood pressure reductions of this magnitude are likely to significantly reduce risk for cardiovascular disease." The study was published in the March 2008 issue of the American Journal of Hypertension.[56] Using the Jadad scale, the researchers found that of the nine studies evaluated, three were of high quality with a score of 75% or greater, three were of acceptable quality, and three were of suboptimal quality.[57]
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[63]
A 1977 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychology showed reduced anxiety in practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation technique compared to controls who relaxed passively.[64] A 1989 meta-analysis published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology compared 146 independent studies on the effect of different meditation and relaxation techniques in reducing trait anxiety. Transcendental Meditation was found to produce a larger effect than other forms of meditation and relaxation in the reduction of trait anxiety. Additionally, it was concluded that the difference between Transcendental Meditation and the other meditation and relaxation techniques appeared too large to be accounted for by the expectation effect.[65]
A 1990 study published in the Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, conducted at Sumitomo Heavy Industries by the Japanese Ministry of Labour and others, looked at Transcendental Meditation and its effect on mental health in industrial workers. In the study 447 employees learned the Transcendental Meditation technique and 321 employees served as controls. After a 5-month period the researchers found significant decreases in major physical complaints, impulsiveness, emotional instability, and anxiety amongst the meditators compared to controls. The meditators also showed significant decreases in digestive problems, depression, tendency toward psychosomatic disease, insomnia, and smoking.[66]
Studies have suggested a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and possible health-related physiological states, including improvement in lung function for patients with asthma, [37] reduction of high blood pressure,[38] an effect the researchers termed "younger biological age,"[39] decreased insomnia,[40] reduction of high cholesterol,[41] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[42] decreased outpatient visits,[42] decreased cigarette smoking,[43] decreased alcohol use,[43] and decreased anxiety.[44]
Research funding from the NIH
As of 2004[update] the National Institutes of Health (NIH) had spent more than $20 million funding research on the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on heart disease[5]. In 1999 the NIH awarded a grant of nearly $8 million to Maharishi University of Management to establish the first research center specializing in natural preventive medicine for minorities in the U.S.[73] The research institute, called the Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, was inaugurated on October 11, 1999, at the University's Department of Physiology and Health in Fairfield, Iowa.[74]
I hesitate to set foot in here, given how far I had to scroll down, but I read the RS/N thread and wanted to comment just on one aspect of this. If someone else has already commented on it, please forgive me. It's that the wording that you had here for example, i.e.
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[61]
misrepresented the Otis study. The Otis study did not give information on the population of "those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique", i.e. the people who have decided to make TM a part of their lives because it holds appeal to them, but a very uncharacteristic group of practitioners: people who had no prior interest in TM, but volunteered to take part in a study. It's not a representative sample. If the material were included in this article, it should be made clear how the sample was drawn, and no statement should be implied on TM practitioners generally.
Another point: Otis reports that the clear majority of those participating in the trial did not report any adverse effects at all (bottom of page 207) and allows that TM is clearly of benefit to many people. The conclusions of the final paragraph too might be worth mentioning, i.e. the author's doubts as to SIMS' assertion that anyone who takes the practice up will experience beneficial effects. For that statement, his unrepresentative sample is valid.
The publisher, Transaction Publishers, is good; if the study is still quoted in recent literature and not widely considered outdated (dunno), I see no reason to argue that it should not be cited here, but it will need four or five sentences to do it justice, as per my suggestions above. Hope that helps. (Taking cover) -- JN 466 22:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
2: There are hundreds of other TM studies. There are indeed Olive, however, none of them look at the same thing as the '82 Otis> None whatsoever and certainly not on the same scale and using TMs own mailing list.
Edit conflict
Er, make that "lone" wolf.-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 20:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I also think the point about peer review is a significant one and that is why Olive keeps bringing it up. The Otis study is not peer reviewed and WP:RS clearly give priority to peer reviewed research when it is available. Since this topic of TM has such a large body of peer reviewed research I don't see why we want to include studies that don't meet that standard. In any case I think a calm, civil and specific discussion of this point is in order beginning with this copy from the WP:RS page:
I removed this sentence which was added to the article today because the source link does not verify the source. The chapter on TM is not available for viewing on the link. Also we need additional details such as publisher,date, page number etc. so we can verify the proposed content. Thanks for your help.
Regarding my edit, see http://www.idetprocedure.com/1000_patient/1040_glossary.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.232.84 ( talk) 11:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
For your convenience, here's what it says: "randomized study — A comparison study in which patients are assigned randomly (by chance) to separate treatment groups. Randomized studies use a “control group,” a group that does not receive the new treatment being studied. Using chance and control groups helps ensure that the different groups can be compared objectively." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.232.84 ( talk) 11:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Currently we have 7 sentences discussing various controversies about the mantras while the actual description of the principles of the technique is relegated only 5 sentences. Recent editions by a single editor have imbalanced the section. Let's discuss how to amend it and create balance. -- Kbob ( talk) 16:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
As someone once said:"App Dipo Bhav" —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
The list of purported mantras from what appears to be a reliable source is one thing. But a single editor has added 5 more lines of text about TM instructors and their relationship with the mantras which is inappropriate in a section at the beginning of the article which is entitled "Principles of the Technique". Maharishi has devoted many pages in his book to the mechanics and principles of TM technique but this is not an advertisement so it has which has been condensed to a few sentences. We should likewise respect this concept when it comes to the mantras. So these 5 lines recently added without discussion or consensus by one editor creates undue weight to the section and most or all of them need to be removed. -- Kbob ( talk) 15:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Sorry, again getting a little messy: Susan Blackmore's article here:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/new%20scientist%201991.htm
I think we agree it needs to be included and nodoubt along with other arguments about a TM research. Can anyone think of any sensible objections why not? Please, try and use WIKI policies and guidelines sensibly :-) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
The7thdr (
talk •
contribs) 18:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Having reviewed WIKI policy I request that the counter to the cult label by Orm Kohnson be removed form this article. Not only may this be compromised by his close association with the TM movement but the material is self published and fform his personal website. I quote:
Self-published sources (online and paper)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.[nb 4]
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.
Can I also point out that Orm-Johnson, needs to be excluded based on the following guideline:
Extremist and fringe sources See also: Questionable sources, Fringe theories, and Pseudoscience and related fringe theories
Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudo-academic,[3] or extremist may be used as sources of information about those organisations or individuals, especially in articles about those organisations or individuals, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
1. it is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
An individual extremist or fringe source may be entirely excluded if there is no independent evidence that it is prominent enough for mention. Fringe and extremist sources must not be used to obscure or describe the mainstream view, nor used to indicate a fringe theory's level of acceptance.
While I except that if we excluded all of his research on this basis the article would have no research at at, one would have to throw doubt on using his personal webpage as source considering he believes - and thinks he can provide evidence to support- such paranormal activities as:
Yogic Flying and that people have occult powers which allow them to alter other peoples actions at a distance. These are of course all fringe theories and have been documented as such in all of the mainstream media and academia. http://books.google.com/books?id=xzCK6-Kqs6QC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN01/wn092801.html http://liberator.net/articles/StosselBelief2.html http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/radin2002.htm
The7thdr ( talk) 21:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Um..that didn't work. oh well, a direct link it is than: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gr4snwg7iaEC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=orm+johnson+pseudo+science&source=bl&ots=bCwD7MKBVp&sig=iQRXjf-GVu5Y356LeeU8jyvQtIU&hl=en&ei=6dlsSqLbC-KgjAf74uW2Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr ( talk • contribs) 22:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, needed a break here - this is getting a bit messy. Anyway, i have cited WIKI guidelines and policey as to why it must be deleted. Counter or supporting guidleines that would keep it? The7thdr ( talk) 18:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The research of Orme-Johnson appears to be on the physiologic reactions to Transcendental Meditation. That doesn't appear to related to the sociological categorization of TM, which is what the "cult" discussion involves. If he has published any papers on the presence or absence of cultic aspects of TM then that'd help establish his expertise that area. Will Beback talk 23:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Replace OJ content until consensus for removal
Talk page discussion does not indicate there is agreement for removal of this content. Until we have agreement the text should stay in place. Without this content the section violates NPOV. As well the study of cult is a sociological, psychological study. Study of the mind and study of the "culture " out of which cults arise .... Orme Johnson is a professional in the field of Psychology. The content is Wikipedia compliant.( olive ( talk) 16:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
In summary: The Otis study is not peer reviewed and was not published independent of the researcher. The paper was published in a book published by Otis himself. Wikipedia policy verifiability strongly advises that peer review and independent notable publication be a standard for inclusion in Wikipedia. Peer review helps ensure a study is reliable, a guideline, while non peer review studies mean the scientific community has not vetted the study as is done with a review by a jury of peers as a prerequisite for acceptance to publication. The study is over 30 years old, and still has not been published.
In this instance the number of peer reviewed studies on the positive effects number in the 350 to 400 range. Peer reviewed studies on the negative effects of TM are significantly lower. This makes the positive TM studies more mainstream or at least in the majority than the negative effect papers. Add to that one non peer reviewed paper, the Otis study. In no way can that study be considered significant since in terms of research papers published it constitutes a tiny minority, and is therefore fringe to the mainstream body of research. Selecting this paper for inclusion requires “cherry picking”- a point of view, and adding it would probably violate WP:NPOV.
The paper is a tiny minority so its inclusion also violates WP:Weight, and the amount of text given to the study in the present inclusion in respect to the other peer reviewed studies in the article goes over the top in terms of violating WP:Weight.
I have suggested that other peer reviewed studies indicating negative effects of the TM technique be found and considered and in fact that article already has some.
It would seem we are at an impasse. Since there are other studies in the recent addition made by 7th we should also look at, I would suggest we move on. I suggest a poll to assess consensus and agreement of the different options. Alternately or subsequently we can go to informal mediation and onward if needed.
As an aside: I have a sense of humour as I’m sure other editors here do. I am also have no interest in any of these techniques as regards to my own belief systems, and don’t mind jokes at all. I do mind ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies that derail discussion are disruptive to the process and have created a low level but constant and relatively consistent level of incivilty, and sense of harassment, both behavioural policy violations.
Perhaps an outside eye could help us work through this concerns.( olive ( talk) 18:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC))
Thanks BWB.. No I am not hostile.. I do feel it important in a discussion to make sure the points I make are "heard" correctly. In this kind of discussion environment one mistake not corrected can lead to multiple misunderstandings. Since I have been aware of certain ArbCom cases... I left 7th information he may not have been aware of. ( olive ( talk) 18:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
Request for agreement/consensus on inclusion of Otis study: Editors can note their preferences regarding the inclusion of the Otis study underneath the appropriate option.
Please add other options if needed.
The following options have been suggested:
1.Leave text recently added, in place, as is.
2.Add single sentence on Otis study noting it is not peer reviewed.
3.Remove the Otis study, and consider other studies that may be more Wikipedia compliant.
4. Consider adding reliable, verifiable secondary source that references the Otis study, and begin possible changeover of TM research to secondary sources.
5. Remember what I said above: "THERE ARE LIES, DAMN LIES AND THERE ARE STATISTICS." Therefore, I will repeat my suggestion made above: How about a compromise? Cite the Otis study AND disclose the fact that it is NOT peer-reviewed AND describe the primary flaws in its design and methods of data analysis. Is this discussion about relentlessly pushing the research that supports your point of view or is it about making an attempt to get to the truth of the matter? I have found that much of the time it is not rocket science. A resonably intelligent person with some background can tell if there are major flaws in logic, study design or analysis.-- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 21:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Little flower... you make some good points and I think a compromise of some sort is possible. Disclosing that a study is not peer reviewed may border on OR, so that option may not work. Citing a secondary source may be all we could do. Its worth thinking about.( olive ( talk) 17:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
Little flower - i am sure it is an oversight, but writing a response ALL IN BOLD is considered very bad form :)
The7thdr (
talk) 21:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Comments
I do not agree in taking part in this vote - when MUMhas managed to bring a bunch of TMers to the page. Sorry, this is a game I will not play. inclusion or exclusion will be based on argument above while refereeing to WIKI guidelines and Policies. This is not an entry on WTBDWK but an article about a product claiming to have health benefits - often very chronic and life threatening disease and illnesses. The7thdr ( talk) 19:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Discussion has become circular and highly repetitive, and we are at an impasse. A request for consensus or agreement on the different possible solutions to the issue if used correctly and carefully can give us insights into where editors stand on the points raised. No consensus is binding and no poll dictates a change will be made in an article. However, such a poll as this coming at a point of impasse and prior to mediation may give us and the mediator insights into what is going on here. No one has to take part, but doing so with the understanding that nothing this poll indicates is binding can only help clear away the days of sometimes confusing discussion and possibly will shed light on a solution. Once we can see where editors stand as we focus in on the more acceptable solutions, a request for consesus on the article will have more chance of success.( olive ( talk) 17:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
Its good that these points about polls are clarified. Some editors may not realize that Wiki is not a democracy and guidelines have priority over voting. However, when a discussion ranges over several pages it is one way for us to take a breath and assess the situation. Taken in its proper context I think its a good thing.
I agree with Olive, And yes, 7th I was saying that we have been discussing this for days, so it is a good idea to have a poll, pople are free to take part or not, but I like to get a clear perspective on everyone's position. -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 20:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid the discussion is not circular at all or indeed that it has reached an impasse. The truth is that certain editors have said that OTIS cannot be used because it does not meet wiki policies regarding referencing. Repeatedly, said editors have mentioned it is not peer reviewed and also in the minority of such research. It has been shown by myself and others that that the first is incorrect and does not exclude it and the second is incorrect. Basically the argument has been "won" by all rational discourse and referring to wiki guidelines and policies (indeed, i have shown that it is the manner in which the"pro" TM literature is presented is in breach of wiki polices) by those who wish to keep otis. Because this is not in the interests of the TM movement and multi billion dollar profit making group of companies and trade marks, accusation are being made the debate is |stalled" It is not stalled but seems to be finished.
The7thdr (
talk) 18:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The Issues: Are There historical precedents for the idea that individuals influence each other at a distancs?
Is there scientific evidence for the Maharishi Effect: Does the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program improve the quality of life in society?
Rationale for the Maharishi Effect
Summary of Key Studies
The Evidence:
The Maharishi Effect is a phase transition to a more orderly and harmonious state of life, as measured by decreased crime, violence, accidents, and illness, and improvements in economic conditions and other social indicators. The scientists who discovered this effect named in honor of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who predicted 50 years ago that only a small fraction of the population participating in the Transcendental Meditation program would be sufficient to improve the quality of life and the whole society. During the past 31 years, this transformation of society has been documented scientifically, first at the city level, then at state and national levels, and then at the global level-the Global Maharishi Effect.
It has been found that the proportion of members of a society necessary to generate the Maharishi Effect is 1% practicing the Transcendental Meditation program or only the square root or 1% participating in the group practice of the TM-Sidhi program. This proportion is so small that the beneficial effects on society of the Maharishi Effect cannot be accounted for by behavioral interactions of the participants with other members of society. Instead, the results indicate a field effect, in which an influence of coherence produced by the participants radiates throughout the society.
There have been 50 studies showing that the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program (which includes Yogic Flying) improves the quality of life in the larger society; the findings of which have been published in leading peer-reviewed scientific journals and presented and published in the proceedings of professional conferences.
Variables assessed in these studies include armed conflict, crime rate, violent fatalities (homicides, suicides, and motor vehicle fatalities), economic indicators, and broad quality of life indices which incorporate the above variables as well as rates of notifiable diseases, hospital admissions, infant mortality, divorce, cigarette and alcohol consumption, and GNP. Effects for each variable or for overall indices are in the direction of improved quality of life.
Download Word document list of 60 research and review papers on 51 studies on the Maharishi Effect. (click here)
Download a PDF of a recently published study on the Maharishi Effect reducing war: Davies, J. L. and C. N. Alexander. “Alleviating political violence through reducing collective tension: Impact Assessment analysis of the Lebanon war.” Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 2005, 17: 285-338. (click here )
Link to new book on the application of the Maharishi Effect to create world peace: "Victory Before War". (click here)
Rationale for the Maharishi Effect in the Perennial Philosophy in the Social Sciences in Physics
Some Conceptual Precedents for a Field Theoretic View of Consciousness from the Perennial Philosophy, Social Sciences, and Quantum Physics
David W. Orme-Johnson, Ph.D. February 4, 200
It seems that many editors here miss-understand the Peer Review process: the following links may help clarify. However, before continuing can I point out that if many editors here had their way, than The Molecular Structure of Nucleic Acids: A Structure for Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid [16] (the study by Watson and Crick which defined the double helix structure of DNA) would not only not be allowed as a citation in any WIKI article but the very nature of DNA would be considered in doubt!!!! http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/42/2/373
The7thdr ( talk) 18:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Our job is not to investigate the concerns and problems that arise with the peer review process.Our concern is to write an encyclopedia which is not a place for original thought or research. Nor can we rewrite Wikipedia to suit our needs.(
olive (
talk) 19:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC))
In my mind the question is do we devote a paragraph to each piece of research conducted on TM?
Once again I will point out that these studies seem to deal with a lot of the same issues that Otis Study deals with and yet receive less column space than the Otis study.
Eppley K, Abrams A, Shear J. Differential effects of relaxation techniques on trait anxiety: a meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1989, 45: 957-74
Haratani T, Henmi T. Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health of industrial workers. Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, 1990, 32: 656
I would argue that they are better studies and more relevant to the article on TM than the Otis study. I am not suggesting that we remove the Otis study just keep it in proportion in relevance to other more authoritative studies.
Also it would be good to add something about this study
Ottoson, J-O. Swedish National Health Board Report on Transcendental Meditation. 1977; Socialstyrelesen D: nr SN3_9_1194/73
-- Uncreated ( talk) 22:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
In a 1976 study published in The Lancet, seven hypertensive patients learned the Transcendental Meditation technique with six patients showing significant reductions in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure (BP) during the first three months of meditation practice. During the second three months of the six month study, three of the patients continued to show reductions of systolic and diastolic blood pressure. [45]
Another study published in the Lancet in 1977 which involved 20 hypertensive patients, found that the Transcendental Meditation technique was associated with a significant reduction of systolic blood pressure and pulse rate in the first 3 months of practice, but that this effect did not continue for most of the patients during the second three months of the six month study, which on average showed no significant change of BP from baseline values during that second three month time period. [46]
In 2005 the American Journal of Cardiology published a review of two studies that looked at stress reduction with the Transcendental Meditation technique and mortality among patients receiving treatment for high blood pressure.[47] This study was a long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years and found that the group practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique had death rates that were reduced by 23%. Also in 2005, the American Journal of Hypertension published the results of a study that found the Transcendental Meditation technique may be useful as an adjunct in the long-term treatment of hypertension among African-Americans.[48]. However Dr. Peter Fenwick points out that the mean changes were only 10 millimetres Hg systolic and just over 6 mmHg for the diastolic, leaving the study population in high-risk category [49]
In 2006 a study involving 103 subjects published in the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine found that coronary heart disease patients who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique for 16 weeks showed improvements in blood pressure, insulin resistance, and autonomic nervous system tone, compared with a control group of patients who received health education.[50]
The American Heart Association has published two studies on the Transcendental Meditation technique. In 2000, the association's journal, Stroke, published a study involving 127 subjects that found that, on average, the hypertensive, adult subjects who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique daily experienced reduced thickening of coronary arteries, thereby decreasing the risk of heart attack and stroke. After six to nine months, carotid intima-media thickness decreased in the group that was practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique as compared with matched control subjects.[51] Also, in 1995 the association's journal Hypertension published the results of a randomized, controlled trial in which a group of older African-Americans practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique demonstrated a significant reduction in blood pressure.[52]
Also in 2006, a functional MRI study of 24 patients conducted at the University of California at Irvine, and published in the journal NeuroReport, found that the long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique may reduce the affective/motivational dimension of the brain's response to pain..[53]
In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of meditation research, conducted by researchers at the University of Alberta Evidence-based Practice Center. The report reviewed 813 studies, of which 230 were studies of TM or TM-Sidhi..[54] The report concluded that "[t]he therapeutic effects of meditation practices cannot be established based on the current literature," and "[f]irm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.(p. 6) [55]
In 2008 researchers at the University of Kentucky conducted a meta-analysis of nine qualifying RCT published studies which used Transcendental Meditation to address patients with hypertension, and found that on average across all nine studies the practice of TM was associated with approximate reductions of 4.7 mm (0 in) Hg systolic blood pressure and 3.2 mm (0 in) Hg diastolic blood pressure. The researchers concluded that "...Sustained blood pressure reductions of this magnitude are likely to significantly reduce risk for cardiovascular disease." The study was published in the March 2008 issue of the American Journal of Hypertension.[56] Using the Jadad scale, the researchers found that of the nine studies evaluated, three were of high quality with a score of 75% or greater, three were of acceptable quality, and three were of suboptimal quality.[57]
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[63]
A 1977 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychology showed reduced anxiety in practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation technique compared to controls who relaxed passively.[64] A 1989 meta-analysis published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology compared 146 independent studies on the effect of different meditation and relaxation techniques in reducing trait anxiety. Transcendental Meditation was found to produce a larger effect than other forms of meditation and relaxation in the reduction of trait anxiety. Additionally, it was concluded that the difference between Transcendental Meditation and the other meditation and relaxation techniques appeared too large to be accounted for by the expectation effect.[65]
A 1990 study published in the Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, conducted at Sumitomo Heavy Industries by the Japanese Ministry of Labour and others, looked at Transcendental Meditation and its effect on mental health in industrial workers. In the study 447 employees learned the Transcendental Meditation technique and 321 employees served as controls. After a 5-month period the researchers found significant decreases in major physical complaints, impulsiveness, emotional instability, and anxiety amongst the meditators compared to controls. The meditators also showed significant decreases in digestive problems, depression, tendency toward psychosomatic disease, insomnia, and smoking.[66]
Studies have suggested a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and possible health-related physiological states, including improvement in lung function for patients with asthma, [37] reduction of high blood pressure,[38] an effect the researchers termed "younger biological age,"[39] decreased insomnia,[40] reduction of high cholesterol,[41] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[42] decreased outpatient visits,[42] decreased cigarette smoking,[43] decreased alcohol use,[43] and decreased anxiety.[44]
Research funding from the NIH
As of 2004[update] the National Institutes of Health (NIH) had spent more than $20 million funding research on the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on heart disease[5]. In 1999 the NIH awarded a grant of nearly $8 million to Maharishi University of Management to establish the first research center specializing in natural preventive medicine for minorities in the U.S.[73] The research institute, called the Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, was inaugurated on October 11, 1999, at the University's Department of Physiology and Health in Fairfield, Iowa.[74]
Sorry Fadrfi , but I can't agree. The research on the TM technique is extensive and such numbers of studies is highly unusual to mediation techniques, and so highly notable. You are summarizing, but in fact the research on the technique needs to be outlined in terms of specific references to specific topics since each topic area is by itself quite notable should be given the weight due its notable feature.(
olive (
talk) 16:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
That is a good idea, I think --
Luke Warmwater101 (
talk) 04:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
While the teachng of TM may not be relevant to the matter of religion and spirituality, it is relevant to TM, and we should find someplace for the assertion. Popularity? Unfortunately, the history section is divided into themese rather time periods, and the rest of "Populatiry" concerns much old events. Will Beback talk 03:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
The tags added in the last few days have been added without foundation. This article is not untended and is under close scrutiny and any sources that are seen by the editors here as being weak can be adjusted and changed. In other words please specify the source that is a concern rather than add tags to the article. (Copied comment TM-Sidhi article).( olive ( talk) 18:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC))
I would also like to remove this sentence (below) which uses a personal web site [ [6]] as a citation:
There is also this sentence quoting Ozzie Osborne in the article:
This Ozzy sentence has a valid source however to be fair shouldn’t we also include quotes from the members of the Beatles, Mike Love, Deepak, Andy Kaufman, Shirley Mclain etc., if they can be found and reliably sourced? Or do we just want to remove all these quotes? -- Kbob ( talk) 02:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Will and we should remove the recent additions where people are quoted with negative remarks. It just makes the whole popularity section unbalanced.-- Uncreated ( talk) 05:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I quite follow all the points in this discussion of the "Celebrity" section. However, it is indisputable that all three of the quotes currently included in that section are negative. To present a balanced viewpoint shouldn't there be three positive comments as well? -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 20:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've started a new section an effort to refocus this discussion on the first of the topics that was being dealt with in the last few days, the Otis study.
Wikipedia operates on policies and guidelines not rules and restrictions: The following text from the reliability guideline notes the importance of peer review. Peer review also helps establish verifiability of the research. So no there is no "rule that says you can't add non peer reviewed research. There are however clear policies, and guidelines that advise as to what is acceptable and preferable in an article.
From: WP:NOR
Material that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable; this means published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
I cannot support opening the door on this article to non peer reviewed research. If you open the door for this kind of study you open the door for the over 400 non peer reviewed studies done on TM, and any other non peer reviewed study. Right now the studies here are peer reviewed and appear in accepted independent publications. S
The fact that there is a single study of this kind is rather, than a reason for inclusion, is in actuality a reason for exclusion:
From WP:NPOV
The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research. Jimbo Wales has said of this:
* If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; * If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
* If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.
Attempts to use a non peer reviewed study when there is only one or a few of its kind, and when is as outdated as this one is, is cherry picking information, and requires a POV and so also becomes WP:OR. As I suggested before, I'm not against including legitimate peer reviewed research that is shows negative responses to TM. I am against loosening the policies and guidelines so that in the future we have more problems with this contentious article that we do now.
The discussion on the legitimacy of the researchers and the research is a red herring in terms of scientific research. Once again, peer review and the publication gives research and the researchers its legitimacy its reliability and its verifiability.
I have no problem with neutral editors and admins looking at this study, or at the tenor of discussion on this talk page, on any, and all of; WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard,RfC, Informal mediation, or Mediation.( olive ( talk) 19:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC))(
Regarding the Otis study: "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics." (Mark Twain) It is a constant existential dilemma. How about a compromise. Cite the Otis study AND disclose the fact that it is NOT peer-reviewed AND describe the primary flaws in its design and methods of data analysis. -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 22:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
1 - The article is already filled with none peer reviewed material. See Orm Johnson's website and the fact that he uses two gradate "essays" to support his argument.
2 - Otis is not a "minority view". It is a piece of research never repeated; valid research from a prominent researcher, published in reliable source is not a minority view - it is simply research not repeated. Interesting however, considering only the TM movement would now have access to the client data, it has not been repeated by MUM?
3 - it is not "outdated" it is the only piece of research of its kind on TM You keep saying it outdated/been replaced. by what study? As Your Orm Johnson says on his personal website again - although using it as a criticism:
It is telling that this widely quoted paper has not been replicated in the 35 years since the data were collected or the 23 years since it was published.
That he confuses the fact that HAS NOT BEEN repeated with Lack of replication (a very different in research - although perhaps this is deliberate on his behalf)is telling as to his entire "critique" - but that is another matter.
4 The Otis study is cited in research paper after research paper and academic publication after academic publication.
The above is only a brief response but happy to dicuss in detail if you seek to take to moderation. The7thdr ( talk) 22:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Medical research
In a 1975 study published in the journal Respiration, twenty one patients with bronchial asthma (who were excluded for significant emphysema by single breath diffusing capacity for carbon monoxide) were studied in a six month RCT designed study (with the researchers but not the patients blind to the treatment modality) using the Transcendental Meditation technique. The study employed a crossover trial format, using reading as a crossover control. Based on the marked reduction in asthma symptom-severity duration, a statistically significant improvement of pulmonary function test abnormalities (in raw measured values of cm/H2O/liter/sec determined using spirometry and body plethysmography), and from subject and physician evaluations, the researchers concluded that the practice of the TM technique is a useful adjunct in the treatment of asthma. [37]
In a 1976 study published in The Lancet, seven hypertensive patients learned the Transcendental Meditation technique with six patients showing significant reductions in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure (BP) during the first three months of meditation practice. During the second three months of the six month study, three of the patients continued to show reductions of systolic and diastolic blood pressure. [45]
Another study published in the Lancet in 1977 which involved 20 hypertensive patients, found that the Transcendental Meditation technique was associated with a significant reduction of systolic blood pressure and pulse rate in the first 3 months of practice, but that this effect did not continue for most of the patients during the second three months of the six month study, which on average showed no significant change of BP from baseline values during that second three month time period. [46]
In 2005 the American Journal of Cardiology published a review of two studies that looked at stress reduction with the Transcendental Meditation technique and mortality among patients receiving treatment for high blood pressure.[47] This study was a long-term, randomized trial. It evaluated the death rates of 202 men and women, average age 71, who had mildly elevated blood pressure. The study tracked subjects for up to 18 years and found that the group practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique had death rates that were reduced by 23%. Also in 2005, the American Journal of Hypertension published the results of a study that found the Transcendental Meditation technique may be useful as an adjunct in the long-term treatment of hypertension among African-Americans.[48]. However Dr. Peter Fenwick points out that the mean changes were only 10 millimetres Hg systolic and just over 6 mmHg for the diastolic, leaving the study population in high-risk category [49]
In 2006 a study involving 103 subjects published in the American Medical Association's Archives of Internal Medicine found that coronary heart disease patients who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique for 16 weeks showed improvements in blood pressure, insulin resistance, and autonomic nervous system tone, compared with a control group of patients who received health education.[50]
The American Heart Association has published two studies on the Transcendental Meditation technique. In 2000, the association's journal, Stroke, published a study involving 127 subjects that found that, on average, the hypertensive, adult subjects who practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique daily experienced reduced thickening of coronary arteries, thereby decreasing the risk of heart attack and stroke. After six to nine months, carotid intima-media thickness decreased in the group that was practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique as compared with matched control subjects.[51] Also, in 1995 the association's journal Hypertension published the results of a randomized, controlled trial in which a group of older African-Americans practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique demonstrated a significant reduction in blood pressure.[52]
Also in 2006, a functional MRI study of 24 patients conducted at the University of California at Irvine, and published in the journal NeuroReport, found that the long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique may reduce the affective/motivational dimension of the brain's response to pain..[53]
In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of meditation research, conducted by researchers at the University of Alberta Evidence-based Practice Center. The report reviewed 813 studies, of which 230 were studies of TM or TM-Sidhi..[54] The report concluded that "[t]he therapeutic effects of meditation practices cannot be established based on the current literature," and "[f]irm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.(p. 6) [55]
In 2008 researchers at the University of Kentucky conducted a meta-analysis of nine qualifying RCT published studies which used Transcendental Meditation to address patients with hypertension, and found that on average across all nine studies the practice of TM was associated with approximate reductions of 4.7 mm (0 in) Hg systolic blood pressure and 3.2 mm (0 in) Hg diastolic blood pressure. The researchers concluded that "...Sustained blood pressure reductions of this magnitude are likely to significantly reduce risk for cardiovascular disease." The study was published in the March 2008 issue of the American Journal of Hypertension.[56] Using the Jadad scale, the researchers found that of the nine studies evaluated, three were of high quality with a score of 75% or greater, three were of acceptable quality, and three were of suboptimal quality.[57]
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[63]
A 1977 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychology showed reduced anxiety in practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation technique compared to controls who relaxed passively.[64] A 1989 meta-analysis published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology compared 146 independent studies on the effect of different meditation and relaxation techniques in reducing trait anxiety. Transcendental Meditation was found to produce a larger effect than other forms of meditation and relaxation in the reduction of trait anxiety. Additionally, it was concluded that the difference between Transcendental Meditation and the other meditation and relaxation techniques appeared too large to be accounted for by the expectation effect.[65]
A 1990 study published in the Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, conducted at Sumitomo Heavy Industries by the Japanese Ministry of Labour and others, looked at Transcendental Meditation and its effect on mental health in industrial workers. In the study 447 employees learned the Transcendental Meditation technique and 321 employees served as controls. After a 5-month period the researchers found significant decreases in major physical complaints, impulsiveness, emotional instability, and anxiety amongst the meditators compared to controls. The meditators also showed significant decreases in digestive problems, depression, tendency toward psychosomatic disease, insomnia, and smoking.[66]
Studies have suggested a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and possible health-related physiological states, including improvement in lung function for patients with asthma, [37] reduction of high blood pressure,[38] an effect the researchers termed "younger biological age,"[39] decreased insomnia,[40] reduction of high cholesterol,[41] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[42] decreased outpatient visits,[42] decreased cigarette smoking,[43] decreased alcohol use,[43] and decreased anxiety.[44]
Research funding from the NIH
As of 2004[update] the National Institutes of Health (NIH) had spent more than $20 million funding research on the effects of the Transcendental Meditation technique on heart disease[5]. In 1999 the NIH awarded a grant of nearly $8 million to Maharishi University of Management to establish the first research center specializing in natural preventive medicine for minorities in the U.S.[73] The research institute, called the Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, was inaugurated on October 11, 1999, at the University's Department of Physiology and Health in Fairfield, Iowa.[74]
I hesitate to set foot in here, given how far I had to scroll down, but I read the RS/N thread and wanted to comment just on one aspect of this. If someone else has already commented on it, please forgive me. It's that the wording that you had here for example, i.e.
A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[61]
misrepresented the Otis study. The Otis study did not give information on the population of "those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique", i.e. the people who have decided to make TM a part of their lives because it holds appeal to them, but a very uncharacteristic group of practitioners: people who had no prior interest in TM, but volunteered to take part in a study. It's not a representative sample. If the material were included in this article, it should be made clear how the sample was drawn, and no statement should be implied on TM practitioners generally.
Another point: Otis reports that the clear majority of those participating in the trial did not report any adverse effects at all (bottom of page 207) and allows that TM is clearly of benefit to many people. The conclusions of the final paragraph too might be worth mentioning, i.e. the author's doubts as to SIMS' assertion that anyone who takes the practice up will experience beneficial effects. For that statement, his unrepresentative sample is valid.
The publisher, Transaction Publishers, is good; if the study is still quoted in recent literature and not widely considered outdated (dunno), I see no reason to argue that it should not be cited here, but it will need four or five sentences to do it justice, as per my suggestions above. Hope that helps. (Taking cover) -- JN 466 22:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
2: There are hundreds of other TM studies. There are indeed Olive, however, none of them look at the same thing as the '82 Otis> None whatsoever and certainly not on the same scale and using TMs own mailing list.
Edit conflict
Er, make that "lone" wolf.-- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 20:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I also think the point about peer review is a significant one and that is why Olive keeps bringing it up. The Otis study is not peer reviewed and WP:RS clearly give priority to peer reviewed research when it is available. Since this topic of TM has such a large body of peer reviewed research I don't see why we want to include studies that don't meet that standard. In any case I think a calm, civil and specific discussion of this point is in order beginning with this copy from the WP:RS page:
I removed this sentence which was added to the article today because the source link does not verify the source. The chapter on TM is not available for viewing on the link. Also we need additional details such as publisher,date, page number etc. so we can verify the proposed content. Thanks for your help.
Regarding my edit, see http://www.idetprocedure.com/1000_patient/1040_glossary.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.232.84 ( talk) 11:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
For your convenience, here's what it says: "randomized study — A comparison study in which patients are assigned randomly (by chance) to separate treatment groups. Randomized studies use a “control group,” a group that does not receive the new treatment being studied. Using chance and control groups helps ensure that the different groups can be compared objectively." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.232.84 ( talk) 11:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Currently we have 7 sentences discussing various controversies about the mantras while the actual description of the principles of the technique is relegated only 5 sentences. Recent editions by a single editor have imbalanced the section. Let's discuss how to amend it and create balance. -- Kbob ( talk) 16:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
As someone once said:"App Dipo Bhav" —Preceding unsigned comment added by The7thdr ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
The list of purported mantras from what appears to be a reliable source is one thing. But a single editor has added 5 more lines of text about TM instructors and their relationship with the mantras which is inappropriate in a section at the beginning of the article which is entitled "Principles of the Technique". Maharishi has devoted many pages in his book to the mechanics and principles of TM technique but this is not an advertisement so it has which has been condensed to a few sentences. We should likewise respect this concept when it comes to the mantras. So these 5 lines recently added without discussion or consensus by one editor creates undue weight to the section and most or all of them need to be removed. -- Kbob ( talk) 15:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)