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Jeffire, please let's discuss before removing well-sourced material. The study may be bogus (I don't really know), but in that case what would be required is to cite a reliable source saying that. Tanaats 13:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Jeffire, actually you can't take well-sourced material out of the article on the basis of personal opinion and hear-say. A peer-reviewed study is most definitely well-sourced. If you wish to challenge the study then your only option would to be to find an RS that presents an opinion that there are faults with the study. I strongly doubt that you will find such a thing. Regardless, the well-sourced statement about the study has to stay in. Tanaats 18:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Could you elaborate on what you mean? I think my stance on the matter is covered by WP:FRINGE#A_note_about_publication. Jefffire 15:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
By presenting implausible fairy tales next to better research we imply it is reasonable. It is not so, so it should be treated differently. Jefffire 16:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I do have a thought or two (or more)
It occurred to me that the organization of the article as a whole is causing problems.
I have been hunting high and low for a source for this interesting quote of Maharishi and have finally found one, "The Center for Consumer Freedom." [ [1]] They publish a site called "Activist Cash" that seems to have gotten some high praise from the wall street journal. One non-profit they look at is the "mothers for natural law" in which they quote Denaro saying Maharishi said this. [ [2]] Sethie 23:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie, I tend to agree that a consumer-protection site is not really an appropriate source for an article on Transcendental Meditation. Tanaats 18:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
"Co-operation, not competition is the very basis of existing life systems and of future survival." A quote from Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture. (If you never heard of Bill Mollison or Permaculture, Google them. WP has neither entry. Permaculture ethics involves three main concerns: caring for the earth, caring for the people, and sharing the surplus.)
I have been away from the discussion for a couple days. On returning and reading the latest developments, I am encouraged that we seem to be moving a little closer to the cooperative state. As I have said before, when we reach that state of interaction as editors on this article, we'll all have more fun, and the article will benefit from it. I still believe this article can become a Featured Article.
Disregarding the ongoing discussion of NPOV for a moment, the main body of the article is beginning to take a more balanced form (in my opinion, of course). I still feel the emphasis on criticisms that have been effectively rebutted or discridited is violating NPOV, but we can work on that piece by piece as our ability to cooperate gets better. Right now, I'm appreciating the progress made in the last week.
In reading the whole article, I found several mistakes, including typos, mistaken attributions, etc. that I want to deal with over the next days. Most will involve points about which there will likely be ageement among the current editors. What I will do, however, is list these items first on the talk page and let everyone reach consensus as to the intended changes (unless the consensus among editors is that I should go ahead and make the changes, as long as they are relatively minor, and give the reasons with each one).
Concerning the NPOV issues we have been discussing related to proportionality, even though this problem permeates the article in several ways, at least with the peer reviewed papers, I have a suggestion. I mentioned this problem to a colleague the other day, and he suggested that we insert citations for all the published papers, with links to the actual paper or abstract where possible. This could be done in a way that would not greatly expand the length of the article. I'll give a bit more detail of this possibility later, so we can get feedback on the logistics. However, this move would help to meet the proportionality rule we have been discussing. It would be easy, in this context, to list the critical reviews and the published rebuttals to these reviews, too, all without offering any of our own opinions regarding what is "truth." Again, I congratulate everyone on the recent increase in cooperation. ChemistryProf 06:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Having discovered the lack of WP entries on Bill Mollison and permaculture, I look forward to creating these someday. Here is the URL for a great interview with Mollison: http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm . I like the introduction that precedes the interview. It reminds me of the reception that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his Transcendental Meditation technique have received over the years, especially this sentence: “But whether it's glowing admiration or sneering dismissal, reaction to Mollison is invariably strong.”
Thanks for the advice and feedback, Tanaats and Sethie. If I hear similar confirmation from TimidGuy, I’ll be off and running. ChemistryProf 21:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
All right, I will begin adding references, with the goal of referencing every peer reviewed article ever written on the Transcendental Meditation program. I will be slowed down a little, however, due to needing to travel across country to visit my 90-year-old mom, who is in the hospital with pneumonia. I expect to have some time to work while there, but perhaps not nearly as much as I might if I were at home. Please bear with me, everyone.
Thanks, Tanaats, for the specific suggestion about adding a brief note to each reference in the reference section. This will be useful in many cases. Also, on the topic of cooperation, if anyone has peer reviewed papers that are not now referenced and wants them to be, please supply them to me here in the discussion and I will make sure they get included.
I was wrong about Bill Mollison and permaculture not being on WP. Tonight I found them all over the place. I don't know what happened the other day when I searched. I must have mispelled both, but I could have sworn I spelled them correctly. Oh well, one fewer project to think about. ChemistryProf 05:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Michaelbusch, please read the long discussions over the past couple of weeks concerning the need for proportionality to maintain a neutral point of view NPOV on this controversial article. While other ways of dealing with this issue may be necessary for non-peer reviewed publications, at least for the peer reviewed ones, an agreement has been reached on an equitable, fair way to appropriately represent all sides of the issue by referencing, in a brief manner, all the papers. If you feel this is not the case, then please put your reasons up for discussion. Thank you. ChemistryProf 07:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Tanaats. Mother appears to be gradually improving; however, she needs help to do just about anything, so I am much busier that I expected to be. Today is the first day I have had time to get back on the Internet.
My earlier query, which everyone seemed to answer in the positive, was why it would not be totally proportional to cite every published paper. By leaving nothing out, either positive or negative, how could it not be proportional? ChemistryProf 22:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
A summary of every study is not going in this article, sorry to disapoint you gentlemen.
A summary of every study about a particular subject (when we are talking about 200+ studies) is not going into any article about that subject. You could try and do a "Research on _____" article. The wiki community MIGHT allow that, though my hunch is that in the case of TM, such an article would be deleted as an advertisement. Sethie 09:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Back for a few minutes only. Mom is at home now and I am her chief attendant, so not much time to contribute to this important discussion. Tanaats, please explain your last statement above. I am unclear on both your first sentence and your last one. Please give me a better handle on what you mean. Thanks. ChemistryProf 21:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if the intro says something that is more qualified, such as "Maharishi describes the TM technique as being effortless, and that this effortless distinguishes it from other techniques that involve concentrion or contemplation." Tanaats 18:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I like each topic heading to be clear about what is being talked about, so I coppied your comments from there to a new section:
This discussion highlights a problem with the religion section. I believe stringing quotes together, as has been done, constitutes original research. For example, "Official TM teachings include teachings about 'God'". Who says that it's an "official" teaching? And who says that just because Maharishi says something about God that suggests that TM is a religion? I believe this whole section is OR. You need an authority who says this is a religious practice and cites a range of evidence and offers analysis. It's possible that a valid argument could be made. You need to do your homework and find it, rather than quoting Activistcash.com. TimidGuy 12:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The section claims that TM is a relgion -- Markovsky says it's a stealth religion, Ryan says that people worship Maharishi. The whole point of the section, explicitly and implicity, is to say TM is a religion. And that is supported by stringing quotes together. I believe that just putting in quotes without any context, any analysis or interpretation, without any reference to authoritative opinion -- that is, a qualified secondary source that's making the claim and backing it up -- makes them primary materials. And the guidelines say, "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research."
What you really need is a qualified secondary source. And I'm betting that such a source exists. That source might draw on former meditators or from critics like Markovsky, but it would also bring in other evidence. It would systematically martial facts and quotes and opinions and definitions. Indeed, it might bring together the sorts of materials you've presented. But Wikipedia editors can't do that; it's necessary to find a qualified secondary source to do it. It would make your argument stronger. And it would feel more like an encyclopedia.
Really what we need to do is identify a model article -- one that's a featured article, and see how the really good editors do it. Do other articles throw in quotes without context? In fact, do featured articles draw so heavily on quotes? I get the impression from the guidelines that one is supposed to find qualified secondary sources and then simply present that information, not necessarily even quoting the source. Just present it in paraphrase and then give a citation to the source.
Hope you have patience with me. I just want this to be a better article. And everything I read in the guidelines and in the discussion of those suggests that this article could be better in accord with them. TimidGuy 19:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the guideline I had in mind from WP:OR when I made the above points: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.[2] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." I believe this could be an example of a new synthesis of material.
Tanaats, I believe that giving the quotes from Markovsky and Ryan serves to make the claim that TM is a relgion. TimidGuy 20:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually TG if you read that section, you will see NOWHERE does it claim TM is a religion. It contains statement by others that it is. WP:V- verfiability, not truth.
We have a sociologist, a judge, former teachers, the NRM website, dictionaries, Maharishi's biographer, encyclopedias, and quotes from Maharishi himself, all asserting that it is a religion or is religious in nature. MOST, not all of the cited facts which are in that section are spoken by one of these sources. So you can drop the claim it is OR, it is just false.
Numerous people list it as a cult! Cults are by definition, religious. The Judge in the Court case ruled on specific components of SCI and TM that now, by law, in the US, are considered religious. I look forward to spelling out all the specifics he ruled on.
Olive, again, you say you want to add in the spiritulity angle. And again, I say, FIND SOURCES. Find sources. Quote them. Put them in. Sethie 18:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
To all... I haven't added anything to this article because a) I was asked by Tanaats not to until the RfC was complete, and b) as I said before, the structure of the article is weak, and I would only add to the jumble. I wanted to reformat so that information could be easily added.I have asked for /discussed this a couple of times. I will not add or do anything until RfC is complete.( olive 23:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
Tanaats, I was suggesting that Sethie has proven my point by first insisting that the section doesn't say that TM is a religion and then insisting that it shows TM is a religion. Regarding stringing together things to make a point. I think there's a difference. A scientific study is an extended treatment of a topic, making a strong case for cause and effect. The reason for the study is to show whether there's a correlation and a possible cause and effect.
On the other hand, taking a miscellaneous quote from Maharishi out of context isn't the same thing. If a qualified secondary source, an expert in religion as the guidelines require, were to examine many statements by Maharishi and then say that TM is a religion, then this would be something that could be represented in Wikipedia. If any of the instances cited in the religion section were qualified secondary sources, that is, "informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion," then that source itself could be used. But none of these sources are qualified secondary sources. Rather, what we have are various quotes etc from various sources strung together in a way that seems to violate this policy:
WP:OR "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.[2] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."
We've got a number of well-defined RfCs. This will be very instructive. Thanks for having patience and hanging with these discussions. Hopefully we'll all eventually have a better idea of how the policies and guidelines can make this a better article. I've been waiting on the RfCs due to the pending mediation, since I believe a person is barred from editing if mediation commences. TimidGuy 12:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph below seems to be confused:
In 1979 the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197) that under the Establishment Clause[1] of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution the teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)[2] could not be taught in New Jersey public schools. The Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion. The lower court based its decision in part on its examination of the puja ceremony that is performed by teachers of Transcendental Meditation prior to giving instruction. The appellate court said that the puja wasn't an issue.
The TM movement states the puja is a ceremony of gratitude. Judge Meanor, the lower court judge, was concerned with the portion of the ceremony in which Guru Dev, Maharishi's teacher, is praised as "the Lord," as "Him" and as Eternal and perfect.[62] At the appellate level, Judge Adams emphasized the secular nature of the ceremony, referring to it as “a secular puja, quite common in Eastern cultures” and distinguished it from unlawful school prayer because: “(a) the Puja was never performed in a school classroom, or even on government property; (b) it was never performed during school hours, but only on a Sunday; (c) it was performed only once in the case of each student; (d) it was entirely in Sanskrit, with neither the student nor, apparently, the teacher who chanted it, knowing what the foreign words meant. Moreover, the elements of involuntariness present in Engel and Schempp are wholly absent here.” [63]
As it says in the first para, the final ruling was by a Federal Circuit Court. It's ruling was to confirm the decision of the lower court. The injunction issued by the Jude Meanor against teaching SCI in NJ public schools is still in effect today.
The only way Judge Adams could have issued that statement is if we was the author of a minority opinion, but we have no cite for that. Unless someone can explain why I am confused about this, and unless we can find a cite for the second para, I think that the second para needs to come out. Tanaats 21:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking now that Judge Adams probably rejected the "puja argument", yet still concurred with upholding the lower court's decision. I'm glad that we had this little discussion. :) Tanaats 14:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry folks, just realized that I created two sections on this. I must have thought I'd forgotten to save the first section! Sheesh. Tanaats 14:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph below seems to be confused:
In 1979 the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197) that under the Establishment Clause[1] of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution the teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)[2] could not be taught in New Jersey public schools. The Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion. The lower court based its decision in part on its examination of the puja ceremony that is performed by teachers of Transcendental Meditation prior to giving instruction. The appellate court said that the puja wasn't an issue.
The TM movement states the puja is a ceremony of gratitude. Judge Meanor, the lower court judge, was concerned with the portion of the ceremony in which Guru Dev, Maharishi's teacher, is praised as "the Lord," as "Him" and as Eternal and perfect.[62] At the appellate level, Judge Adams emphasized the secular nature of the ceremony, referring to it as “a secular puja, quite common in Eastern cultures” and distinguished it from unlawful school prayer because: “(a) the Puja was never performed in a school classroom, or even on government property; (b) it was never performed during school hours, but only on a Sunday; (c) it was performed only once in the case of each student; (d) it was entirely in Sanskrit, with neither the student nor, apparently, the teacher who chanted it, knowing what the foreign words meant. Moreover, the elements of involuntariness present in Engel and Schempp are wholly absent here.” [63]
As it says in the first para, the final ruling was by a Federal Circuit Court. It's ruling was to confirm the decision of the lower court. The injunction issued by the Jude Meanor against teaching SCI in NJ public schools is still in effect today.
The only way Judge Adams could have issued that statement is if we was the author of a minority opinion, but we have no cite for that. Unless someone can explain why I am confused about this, and unless we can find a cite for the second para, I think that the second para needs to come out. Tanaats 21:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
According to this, Judge Adams ruled that the teaching of SCI in public schools violated the Establishment Clause.
And according to this, Judge Adams wrote a concurring opinion.
So I really doubt that the second paragraph is at all accurate. Tanaats 05:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Ahhh, perhaps Adams dismissed the puja argument while still supporting the CC's overall decision to uphold the lower court's decision. Tanaats 05:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad we had this little talk. :) Tanaats 05:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I now have some court papers in hand, as well as the original JAMA article, the article by Skolnick, and the published rebuttals. I'd like to gradually add some detail to this section. TimidGuy 12:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been looking into the details of the paper presented as countenance in the validity section. It appears to have been written by someone who has a substantial conflict of interest in the matter, and who appears to be decidedly biased on the matter. Despite those facts it is being presented uncritically as objective fact and without comment on the authors connection. This is highly misleading to the readers. I have reworded it to reflect the overall notability of the objection and to make note of the authors affiliations. If the study criticized truly has faults then it should be possible to find independent criticisms written by objective parties in other journals. Jefffire 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
A subsequent study found that this report was based on a report commissioned by the U.S. Army in 1986. "The NRC review was based almost entirely on a single unpublished review (Brener & Connally, 1986) and overlooked virtually all of the research current to the review, including numerous studies directly bearing on its conclusions. Even though the review cited a bibliography of hundreds of studies on meditation in its reference section (Murphy & Donovan, 1988, 1999), it did not include this material in its review."<ref>Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Hawkins, M. A. (2005). Critique of the National Research Council’s report on meditation. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,17(1), 383-414</ref>
...although the report has been criticised by TM researchers <ref>Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Hawkins, M. A. (2005). Critique of the National Research Council’s report on meditation. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,17(1), 383-414</ref>.
I don't recall making that claim at all. I reduced the size of the contribution on the basis of undue weight, and noted the contributer's affiliations. I certainly did not "remove" the criticism, it's still there. I would appreciation a ceasation of non-truths on your part. Jefffire 12:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, we are discussing this in the first place because the material has some flaws in it....doesn't stand up to scrutiny... and frankly the shortened version of the added article is somewhat patronizing:(.... what is a TM researcher for heaven's sake. These people are respected researchers in their fields, whether they are doing research on TM or on something else. Thanks Tanaats for fielding this on your own, and for your integrity in attempting to maintain the correct neutrality of the article whatever your personal opinions might be. Sorry, if I've gone on and on trying to explain. ( olive 05:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
oops sorry forgot to include edit summary with the discussion.( olive 14:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
The article is currently 56 KB long. This seems rather lengthly, and in light of the above discussion, without a change in editing, it will grow larger. In my opinion, much of the material in the article is interesting, but not particularly relevant. I tried to remove some material that seemed largely irrelevant, but encountered objection. So: what parts of the article may be condensed and edited down to make it both concise and accurate? Michaelbusch 22:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
General thoughts on removing material: this article seems to aspire to present anything anyone ever said about TM. That is excessive. This is an encyclopedia: we only want to have a first approximation with the most important information. Material that is tangential to the main points of the article is distracting and not usefl and should either be moved to secondary articles or removed completely. I put the statement that TM is 'effortless' and the details of Maharishi's sales pitch for the history of TM in the category of being unnecessary, as well as the problems associated with sounding like advertising. There are similar bits throughout the article.
Note also: the style of the article is still pretty rough. The article lacks overall cohesion and, on a strictly typographical level, needs a lot of editing. Michaelbusch 16:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the RfC. Jefffire deleted reference to the Maharishi Effect study that appeared in the peer-reviewed Social Indicators Research and referenced the guideline on fringe. Most of the discussion has been in that context. The RfC has shifted the focus to his edit of the NRC rebuttal that appeared in the Journal or Social Behavior and Personality -- an edit that he justified in his Edit Summary by referring to the fringe guideline but hasn't yet discussed on the Talk page.
Thanks, Tanaats, for exploring the issue of the relevance of this guideline. TimidGuy 12:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Proposing an edit war is deeply incivil behaviour. Now I have explained why it is deeply disingious to present this study uncritically beside other, plausible studies and why it should be mentioned elsewhere. You have yet to respond to this rational. Jefffire 12:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I will try not to be long winded here:) This is preliminary but necessary references for my next points
Sthapatya Veda for example is one of the aspects of Vedic literature.
Suggestions:
although, research on TM could always be left on TM site as long as it is specific to TM technique or TM Sidhi Program... Possible rewrite of first line on TM:
Transcendental Meditation or TM, the experiential, practical side of Maharishi Vedic Science, and a trademarked form of meditation introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, involves the repetition of a specific sound, called a mantra... well,let me know what you all think.( olive 17:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
Olive says above that "TMO and TM Movement are outdated terms, within this organization." What would be the proposed alternatives? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Olive suggests chaning the title to "Transcendental Meditation and Related Programs". Discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC )
" Transcendental Meditation Technique and Related Programs" Being very clear at this point about what we are talking about will perhaps save us time and discussion later on , eh?( olive 17:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
Olive, suggests that we move 'Related Programs' material to MVS site. In addition, I suggest that we consolidate some of the various subarticles into a single larger MVS article (see above). Discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
See initial discussion above. Any further discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
A section for Olive to expand on her proposal for the treatment of religion and spirituality in the article. Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Any questions about what terms are or are not currently used by the TMO are resolved here, as far as I know:
I can certainly cite this but I wonder if its really necessary. All this is saying is that the TM technique is the "do" part of MVS as opposed to the "application to life"part-vedic literature.There is no comment on the experience, what it is or anything like that. This is a neutral statement. If you still want a citation let me know , I'll put it in but I think its not necessary and will chop things up a bit —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Littleolive oil ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
yikes, sorry forgot to sign .... also referring to intro , words "practical , experiential" ( olive 17:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
My mistake, it is listed as a guideline.
Please note, the guideline you are refferencing speaks of unsourced material. It says nothing about sourced material that is innacurate. Sethie 21:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting stuff. I just found out on Help that reverting OR doesn't count against 3RR. Tanaats 02:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
That's nonsense, I'm afraid. What is "Help"...? Wherever you read that, you were misled, or misunderstood. Please review the 3RR policy page and you will see that it is only reverting the clearest cases of simple and obvious vandalism that "doesn't count" against the 3RR. OR is hardly ever simple or obvious vandalism. Note also that the 3RR is not an entitlement to revert three times a day. It sounds like you're looking at the rule from altogether the wrong angle. Gaming or skirting the 3RR is in itself a blockable offense. Please just don't revert war, that's the only way of making sure the 3RR doesn't bite you. Bishonen | talk 02:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
This may have been the misleading comment: [8]. Dreadlocke ☥ 04:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Whew!.... I didn't delete this section just a few words I think it was something like "TM technique is described by the TM organization..... this seemed awkward, so I took out two or three words to "TM is described . I also felt that we are describing this according to the organization , so this was implied ....that is, who said this ..... The citation to the TM site explains TM as experiential and practical ..... Tanaats objected to these words I understood, so I was covering my basis by finding a source for them. Thankyou Tanaats..I realized after I has hit saved that "signed" was the wrong word to use here and also that I had looked in the wrong place .... but some of my edit info had disappeared so feeling confused by this .... apologies for this
from deleted citation ...the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation program and a program of reading the Vedic Literature as formulated by His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. These two programs represent the principal educational methodology of Maharishi Vedic Science [10]
and as further explanation of vedic science
This field can be directly experienced in the simplest state of everyone's awareness through Maharishi's Technologies of Consciousness... Complete knowledge of consciousness is available in Veda and the Vedic Literature. Maharishi has completely restored the thousands-of-years-old Vedic Literature for the total significance of its theory and practice, and has organised it in the form of a complete science of consciousness-Maharishi's Vedic Science and Technology. [11] The Maharishi Vedic Technologies of Consciousness include the practical, scientifically validated program called the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program. [12]
Please present how you want to summarize this source, then I can tell you if it clarifies things or not. The current version is unnacceptable... it introduces a meaning that is nowhere to be found on the sources you listed.
Sethie 21:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
sorry I have taken so long to take care of this - have been sick .... I have added a single citation that is not so obtuse as is all of what is above and that i think carries all of the information we need for this single line. I have placed pertinent parts of the quote and the explanation for the quote below:
"This field can be directly experienced in the simplest state of everyone's awareness through Maharishi's Technologies of Consciousness."and,"The Maharishi Vedic Technologies of Consciousness include the practical, scientifically validated program called the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program."
This is already in place, the article already says,"Maharishi describes TM as being the experiential side of Maharishi Vedic Science. This is a succinct paraphrase of the material above. ( olive 20:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
The article has been fairly stable -- though a tenacious defense by Tanaats was required to stem some controversial deletions. : ) It may be a good opportunity to get feedback on several specific issues that we've agreed would benefit from input from others. I'd like to start with Denaro today or tomorrow. As before, I won't post a notice to the RfC page until each party to the dispute has had a chance to make a one-paragraph Statement.
Also, as I understand it, the Comments area is primarily for people who are new to the issue -- not us regulars who are here every day duking it out. : ) TimidGuy 12:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether controversial statements from an affidavit, which is quoted in The Skeptic's Dictionary, should be quoted in this article on Transcendental Meditation.
TimidGuy requested my input based on my participation in WP:RS so I've had a look over the area in question. I'm conscious that that this debate is quite involved so I'm trying to focus just on the reliability aspects although I will say that I am an experienced meditator and my experience of TM practitioners has left me reasonably ambivalent towards the method. Notwithstanding all of that it would be useful to drop a note on the RS talk page about this RFC to get some other views.
In summary, I think there is enough material to support the section, but usage at the moment needs some work, and probably more investigation to find reliable sources. Skeptics Dictionary itself shouldn't be used because it doesn't add value and provides links through to other sources. Hope that's useful. ALR 08:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The extent and scope of the deception before, during and after becoming "initiated" (their term) into TM-Sidhi programs is so vast and far-reaching with enormous potential for severe injury, and, even death, that it is impossible, within this necessarily abbreviated brief, to document it all.
At para. 17, President Morris claims "heightened intellectual clarity." As a professor who taught at MIU that claim is false. The effect is the opposite: a spaced-out, unfocused, zombie-like automaton, incapable of critical thinking is the more usual "benefit" of prolonged meditation.
In fact, meditation was used as an excuse (probably valid) by my students for not completing a project much in the way a "virus" or "the flu" debilitates the average college student. The consequences of intensive, or even regular, meditation was so damaging and disruptive to the nervous system, that students could not enroll in, or continue with, regular academic programs.
Many of my students offered as an excuse for not being able to sit for an examination or write a paper, the fact that they had a "bad meditation" or just "got off rounding" (group TM) and haven't gotten "back to earth yet."
13. The source of my statement that the deceptions existed, were substantial and material, were intentional, and have detrimental consequences are my personal and professional observations (I lived on campus with faculty, staff and students), internal "secret" correspondence (not privileged), president council meetings, faculty senate meetings, executive sessions and conferences with MIU and WPEC-US hierarchy.
The individuals I spoke to included, but are not limited to, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, on or about December 6-9, 1975 on campus (at least two private conferences while he presided over a physics conference at MIU), Keith Wallace ([then])President), Steve Druker, Steve Schwartz, Sy Migdal, Robert Winquist ([then]Vice President), Ed Tarabilda, Dean of Students Dennis Raimundi, Robin Babov, Professors Michael Weinless, Barbara Edison, and Franklin Mason, Vice President David Clay (Vice President of Administration) and psychologist Jonathan Shapiro.
Tanaats 17:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)14. A simple review of internal correspondence reflects the inconsistency between the outward, sanitized, "safe" public image they try to present, and the frequently dangerous reality of TM-Sidhi techniques.
An affidavit is certainly a self-published primary source and that should only be used to presents the opinion of the person signing it, in an article about that person (if that person's notability warrants an article in WP, that is). The fact that it is referred to in Tod Carrol's SD, means that it may be admissible as it is reported on a secondary source. My concern is that this secondary source is not necessarily neutral. I would support ALR's call to find better sources, and in the meantime, reduce the too-long a quotation from that affidavit, summarizing the affidavit's comments into something more encyclopedic. If this affidavit is only mentioned in the SD, then I would argue that it may be not a good source for this article, but that is something that involved editors will need to agree upon. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
RE: Denaro's claims and the RS issue. There's what is said in WP:RS about bias in non-scholarly sources:
In the case of Denaro, he explicitly states, in point 29, which was deleted from the wikipedia TM article some time ago, that in his opinion, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is "more dangerous than Jim Jones, who enticed 900 of his followers to commit suicide." That seems to point to bias and should be mentioned whenever this affidavit is mentioned. Sparaig 22:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Tanaats, I feel like you've ignored the main thrust of the comments from ALR and Jossi. And I feel like you're ignoring the Wikipedia guidelines related to primary and secondary sources. The affidavit is a primary source. The guidelines say that primary sources can't stand alone. Primary sources, especially those that make controversial claims, require corroboration by expert secondary sources. Both ALR and Jossi question Carroll as a secondary source. You have yet to give evidence that Carroll meets the criteria of a secondary source. Jossie notes that the affidavit is a primary source, hence needs corroboration. ALR feels the affidavit needs corroboration and that Skeptic's Dictionary shouldn't be used. Jossi questions use of the Skeptic's Dictionary and supports ALRs call to find better sources to corroborate the affidavit. He says that if a better source isn't found, he would argue that the affidavit shouldn't be used.
I feel we were fortunate to get the feedback of two experienced editors who have played an active role in shaping the guidelines, and I think their points are good. I'm surprised that you seem to be arguing that opinion is acceptable if it's presented as opinion. If that's acceptable, I'll write an affidavit today in which I describe how Denaro admitted to lying during cross examination, get it notarized, put an image on a web site, and then reference it in the article.
And on a minor related point, I think you're flat out wrong when you say, "The only issues that an appellate court is allowed to rule on are points of law. They never rule on points of fact." TimidGuy 12:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
My computer has been down for several days and I have come back to the discussion above.
I realize that this discussion is not about the university but about the use of certain materials. However I wondered if these points had been really considered as an aid in attempting to create a truly neutral viewpoint. No response necessary or wanted, since I am not an editor originally involved in this dispute. ( olive 21:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
I found an RS. Tanaats 21:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Found all 5 pages, including signature [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Tanaats 05:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I reworded the line about the German government study to reflect what was actually going on. The german government interviewed 27 people who had complaints about TM and (surprise!) more than 75% of them reported adverse effects from TM.
Here's a couple of newsgroup comments by Roger D Nelson of PEAR, who read the study and gave an informal review of it in the sci.skeptics newsgroup just over 11 years ago, wearing the hat of someone who had performed a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on meditation for the NIH. Note that he was talking to John Knapp, whose website was the source for the Skeptic Dictionary entry and that John still hasn't changed his website to reflect their conversation 11 years ago:
[24]
Roger D. Nelson, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) C-131 E-Quad, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544 voice: 609 258-5370 fax: 609 258-1993 rdnel...@princeton.edu http://www.princeton.edu/~rdnelson/index.html
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparaig ( talk • contribs) 13:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
My editing of remakrs on German study was reverted, partly because the citation didn't support the remarks. That's certainly true since the citation no longer mentions that study.
Transcendental Meditation, John Carroll, The Skeptic's Dictionary
Sparaig 18:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Sparaig newsgroups are your thing.... and you have been here long enough, and I doubt Tanaats and I are nowhere near the first to tell you that they don't cut it on wikipedia. Please discuss "news"groups elsewhere. :) If newsgroups were considered a reliable source of information..... well, the TM organization would be in for a WOLRD of hurt. People, including various "reputables" have spoken some hard smack on newsgroups about TM.
Sethie 05:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
3 groups of people were interviewed:
The guidelines explicity require peer review and publication in an academic journal: WP:RS: "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." TimidGuy 12:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Peer-reviewed journals are normally RS , unless there is some reason otherwise. In this case there is very good reason otherwise.
The actual article can be found in Ebsco Academic Search Premier for those with access. On its first page, it says: Author Affiliation: Maharishi University of Management for all 3 of the authors So it is obvious from its face that this article is most definitely a COI source; based on the info. about the journal, nothing in the journal is a RS. It's a vanity publisher. Any journal can claim to be peer-reviewed.
Any more help you'd like from an objective librarian, let me know. DGG 00:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[27] where it says Location: Not at NLM
Some response points to DGG
- a journal's database inclusion status may change over time - all journals are subject to various financial realities and may change from monthly to quarterly or yearly to even suspension of publication for periods of time - i have seen this many times in 25 years of authoring and referencing articles in science - the salient point is whether a journal was peer reviewed, and then perhaps also was included in any of the standard databases, at the time of publication
- this journal is currently indexed in NLM's pubmed and has an NLM ID - it's status as not being held by NLM means nothing editorially - this journal happens to be held at the UC Berkeley library, which is where NLM holds many of its west coast 'regionally catalogued' items (which is how this catalogued journal is described as being held at the NLM locator link) - for your reference, NLM does not physically hold anywhere near all of their indexed journals - they also make use of 8 other very large university libraries (such as NYU, Univ of Chicago and UC Berkeley) to be repositories for their extensive catalogue index of journals and books in all of their databases
- JSBP is also currently listed in the Psycinfo database (which is maintained by the APA - American Psychological Association)
- as far as your claim that JSBP is a vanity press, please give a reference for that - that is both OR and also seems to be incorrect
- i'm not sure what you meant when you attributed to me a comment on technical reports not being peer reviewed. if by technical reports you mean technical/physical science research results, the ones with scientific credibility are indeed all peer reviewed
- i am not sure what exactly the implication was, but for clarification, the NRC paper was neither a technical research report nor was it peer review published, and as such should not be included for reference and discussion on wikipedia, at least not ahead of papers that have been
- this JSBP paper which critiqued the NRC paper however, was peer review published, and could conceivably be included as relevant (though with the intended removal of the NRC paper reference and discussion, is likely not necessary)
- and where certain peer review journals may be listed in more databases and/or may be considered to be more authoritive in a given field than others in that field, for scientific credibility, in all cases being published in a peer reviewed journal is significantly preferred to not being peer reviewed (as is the case with the NRC paper and the so-called German study, neither of which were nor likely would have been peer review published, due to substantial flaws and omissions) Duedilly 21:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie, I feel your comment in your statement is deceptive. Carroll clearly explains that "occult" is his umbrella term to refer to the topics in his dictionary. And in his intro he is clearly stating that he doesn't intend to present a balanced view in the book. My use of an ellipsis was appropriate, rather than taking space in my Statement to explain Carroll's use of the term "occult." TimidGuy 13:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I have rarely been bothering to make edit comments when posting here in Talk. I didn't think it necessary since we were always either making a new comment or replying to someone else's comment, and we didn't need an edit comment to tell us which it was.
However TimidGuy makes edit comments as a regular practice. I have come to realize that TimidGuy's edit comments are actually very helpful. When I look in History, by seeing his edit comments I am often reminded that I have already read that diff. This is especially helpful when his edit is the first one in History but I can't remember whether or not I've already read the diff. Because of his edit comments I can often remember that I've already read the diff and therefore I don't have to waste even a little bit of time by looking at it again.
May I suggest that we all start making edit comments here? They wouldn't have to be very long. Thanks. Tanaats 20:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I see the founder of TM is named as "Maharishi" numerous times in this article. The first time I saw it, I thought "Hm; 'Maharishi' is a title. I should change that to 'the Maharishi.'" Before I did, though, I noticed the multiple uses of "Maharishi" as though it was his first name.
Now, I know it's not uncommon for people to think titles with which they're not familar are names ("Mahatma", for example, or "Buddha"), but is that correct here? Shouldn't he be referred to either by name or by the title as a title?
*
Septegram*
Talk*
Contributions* 18:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Please refer to Maharishi Vedic Science site/article for viewing, comments, etc.( olive 18:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC))
I had fallen under a bad influence awhile back when I was led to believe that deletion of well-sourced material was ipso facto "vandalism". I have somewhat recently been advised by Bishonen that content edits that are not blatent obvious deliberate destruction are not considered to be "vandalism." I apologize to Roseapple and the other editor (I have forgotten exactly who it was) who I threatened with the "vandalism" stick. Tanaats 16:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I felt no resentment; it was a good learning experience for me! But I appreciate your apology. Roseapple 19:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to make sure that everyone saw the information under discussion on the MVS site. I had said that if there were no objections by Friday I would go ahead and delete the old material off of the TM site. I realized that some of you may not have seen that discussion so, I'll wait until Monday and then delete if there are no objections.( 63.162.81.220 18:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
I have deleted the "Related Programs" on the TM site. I see extending the MVS site more as an organizational move. Hopefully the site will be easily accessible in terms of what goes where , and will be organic in nature so material can be added quickly and easily in its appropriate slot. I am still thinking about adding something more on the TM site about MVS but it does feel as if its not needed, so will leave that for now. ( olive 16:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC))
Hi, Betty. I reverted the comments you inserted into the aricle. Note that we've already discussed at length on this page whether it's appropriate or necessary to identify the affiliation of David Orme-Johnson and the other authors of the JSBP article with the TM organization. Generally, Tanaats, Duedilly, and I feel that it's Original Research to do so. And the discussion has also suggested that it shows a misunderstanding of the scientific process.
If you'd like to improve the article, it would be great if you could write a citation for the NRC report. It's been tagged "citation needed" for months. Also, we need to address the fact that the 1991 report was about meditation in general. It's not clear what implications it has regarding the research specifically on Transcendental Meditation. TimidGuy 20:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone who is familiar with past discussions tell me why the NRC paragraph should be in this article? There is no citation so I can't read the report myself; if it truly is about meditation in general rather than TM then it seems it shouldn't be under a heading called "Validity of TM Research" and would be more appropriately located in the wiki article about meditation. Thank you. Roseapple 15:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
No one has responded with a citation or rationale for this study so I am going to delete it as per discussion above. (Hope nobody minds.) Roseapple 15:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Not sure the citation of Otis is accurate. Otis never published a single study on TM in any peer-reviewed journal. The link is to a reprint of section of his book:
As the mediator here I must admit that I tend to give less credence to people who dont sign their posts. Not doing so indicates at the very least an unfamiliarity with our customs of editing here -- something all parties in any legitimate dispute should be familiar with before getting into various arguments. - Ste| vertigo 01:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC) PS: Ive subordinated your title because we are in mediation, and all involved parties should participate in the mediation program. - Ste| vertigo 01:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Ive taken this case to mediate. Ive familiarised myself with the basics. Whats the greatest issue of dispute at the moment? Here are my basic thoughts for the issues listed. For these problems:
We will:
- Ste| vertigo 08:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have a question: is it appropriate to use "Maharishi" as the referred name in the article? - Ste| vertigo 01:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is what the Allahabad alumnus entry on the guy says:
Its not a major sticking point as long as we indicate in a footnote that the decision to use Maharishi is based on familiarity and uniqueness of the name (and relatively speaking, the culture). Otherwise It would be preferable to use Sri M.C. Srivastava. - Ste| vertigo 01:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: confused: Mahesh Prasad Varma or Sri M.C. Srivastava - Sri is also an honorific isnt it? - Ste| vertigo 01:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Id like people to participate in a vote to help me identify which problem areas need to be taken care of. These are the material issues:
Id like each of you to state your position in a sentence or two, in voting format. - Ste| vertigo 01:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Mediation issues: In regards to Denaro affidavit
The Denaro affidavit is a primary source, the opinion of its author, whose credibility is disputed by the legal council of the university in question. These are unproven and questionable allegations, are serious, are defamatory, and may impact a functioning university.
See above. In addition, the presented secondary source is The Skeptic’s Dictionary. For the kinds of serious allegations reported, a highly reliable secondary source seems a minimum requirement. Carroll reports that the dictionary does: “not try to present a balanced account”, and that there is “no peer or professional review process”. [31]. These seem unlikely attributes for a “Reliable Source”
Research on the university indicates its status with Higher Learning Commission and its, required by law, accounts of crime on campus. These points seem to have not been taken into account especially when presenting defamatory information.
Am not sure what voting format is .... hope this is appropriate. Thanks.( olive 03:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
PS: Question: How do people feel about an article split? - Ste| vertigo 11:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I feel like RS is the area of greatest concern -- POV book (Skeptic), POV web sites (Trancenet, etc.), non-peer-reviewed study (Otis), self-published book (Mason biography), primary sources with no proper secondary source context (Denaro affidavit, etc.)
Next would be undue weight (which you address very clearly in your comments above) -- undue emphasis on a couple studies compared to hundreds of peer-reviewd studies that suggest benefits, and undue emphasis on criticism (which until a few weeks ago constituted almost exactly two-thirds of the article as measured by word count).
Third would be OR -- the collection of primary sources and quotations in order to draw a conclusion, such as the section that argues that Transcendental Meditation is a religion.
By the way, as I understand it, an affidavit is simply a notarized statement. Also, Denaro's affidavit isn't part of the court record in Kropinski vs. WPEC. If the affidavit were referenced, how would then one reference an affidavit that's been written by the Maharishi University of Management legal counsel that says that Denaro misrepresented his relationship to the university and that makes statements that reflect on Denaro's credibility? (Note that both the legal counsel's affidavit and Denaro's aren't technically affidavits but are attorney's statements which they certify to be true -- apparently considered to be the equivalent of an affidavit.) TimidGuy 13:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry if you feel insulted. In no way was I making a personal comment about you or your ability to be rational and neutral. (The Wikipedian lifestyle may in fact require being zealous about NPOV, but I often also chastise the science set for confusing science point of view with neutral point of view. "I was expressing an opinion and looking for some understanding into what has become complex issues for us." I don't understand what you're meaning is here. You mention "us." I didn't realise I was mediating with an organization. Such an organisation - one which pursues people in court over defamation and so forth - no doubt has an agenda which is to protect its image. On that basis I may have made a personal assumption that you were operating somewhat from that camp, with that stance. Certainly you are someone who is more reasonable than I may have assumed, and perhaps, consider the possibility that you are more reasonable than some of your associated peers.
It is easy for me to think as that you are having some difficulty reconciling your practice and the statements surrounding it with external values such as NPOV - or at least my presented interpretation of it. I glad that you corrected me on that. But when you use the word "complex" - I cant help but point out the distinction between you and the organization itself: you may have complex issues which I can offer understanding and respect to. The organization you are associated with has a somewhat different set of "complex issues" - trying to get published in JAMA for example. I think what it comes down to is the question of what complex issues are the organizations? Would it be neutral and encyclopedic to simply state that TM has some "complex" (sic) relationship with different particular sets of beliefs, values, and principles? - Ste| vertigo 11:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible that given the amount of positive-outcome research on TM and the very small amount of peer-reviewed negative material (and I am not an expert in this area as Duedilly seems to be,so maybe there is no good RS research on negative outcomes in TM )that the neutrality is reached without this somewhat dubiously researched study.( olive 23:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
I realize that last statement is less than clear and hard to explain.... and this a very real question? Is there any RS material on negative -outcome TM and if not and until there is,is neutrality defined by the positive research only....( olive 23:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
I'll be bold and propose a solution. This represents how I would like to see the article. My goal isn't to remove all critical material, but to conform to the standards of Wikipedia and to proper encyclopedia style.
Anyway, just tossing out this proposal. TimidGuy 16:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to think about this more TG , but I wanted to mention I have done a fair amount of research on the religion spirituality area, that I had thought about showing everyone when finished, and asking for comments and consensus. I could continue with that. I also felt the cult material was poorly written and used the material from France in an overly extended and slanted way.I wonder if we can define cult ourselves but need to find a reliable source or sources that do define it ....My inexperience showing up here. I like the idea of presenting both sides of the cult situation. So I would love to look at this proposal more closely - rushing now .( olive 17:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC))
We probably want to postpone this discussion while mediation is going on, but I didn't want to lose the thread:
As I was looking through the criticism section, I noticed the claim that the court case was settled out of court. I previously had asked for a citation, however, I do not believe listing the court case court documents counts, unless the documents clearly state "case settled out of court." Is that the case?
I had provided a refference to Andrew Sckolnick's (one of the people who was sued) personal website in which he states the case was dismissed.
These are the facts I am aware of. Sethie 04:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sparaig 23:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sparaig 00:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
In keeping with my understanding of wikipedia citation guidelines, here is how I believe Otis should be referenced:
I guess my objection to Otis is two-fold: it's otherwise unpublished, and it singles out for TM a phenomenon that is widely known in Psychological literature anyway: "relaxation-induced anxiety," which even has its own
DSM-IV entry, IIRC. Also, there are strategies taught to TMers in how to deal with it that Otis never mentions. -
Sparaig 07:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Stevertigo, I do hope you'll read my comments in the "Mediation issues" thread in which I say again that I'd prefer not to split and suggest an alternate way of proceeding, starting with Otis. TimidGuy 17:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
You know there are like, I don't know, 10,000 discussions going on right now! :) If someone wants to open up another one about the mantra refference, feel free. I am reverting that removal for now. Sethie 17:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy stipulates a reliable source is "absolute and non-negotiable", and goes hand in hand with verifiable, now under the topic W:ATT., and also states that authors must be regarded as "trustworthy or authoritative". What level of trust we can place on information given by someone who publishes in any format proprietary knowledge?
I really feel we have made a lot of very good progress in creating a neutral site. This may not be up to the standards we have all worked towards. This information seems to violate OR and W: ATT - Verifiable and RS. I'd like to suggest we not use this material given these violations of Wikipedia policies. ( olive 17:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Jeffire, please let's discuss before removing well-sourced material. The study may be bogus (I don't really know), but in that case what would be required is to cite a reliable source saying that. Tanaats 13:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Jeffire, actually you can't take well-sourced material out of the article on the basis of personal opinion and hear-say. A peer-reviewed study is most definitely well-sourced. If you wish to challenge the study then your only option would to be to find an RS that presents an opinion that there are faults with the study. I strongly doubt that you will find such a thing. Regardless, the well-sourced statement about the study has to stay in. Tanaats 18:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Could you elaborate on what you mean? I think my stance on the matter is covered by WP:FRINGE#A_note_about_publication. Jefffire 15:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
By presenting implausible fairy tales next to better research we imply it is reasonable. It is not so, so it should be treated differently. Jefffire 16:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I do have a thought or two (or more)
It occurred to me that the organization of the article as a whole is causing problems.
I have been hunting high and low for a source for this interesting quote of Maharishi and have finally found one, "The Center for Consumer Freedom." [ [1]] They publish a site called "Activist Cash" that seems to have gotten some high praise from the wall street journal. One non-profit they look at is the "mothers for natural law" in which they quote Denaro saying Maharishi said this. [ [2]] Sethie 23:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie, I tend to agree that a consumer-protection site is not really an appropriate source for an article on Transcendental Meditation. Tanaats 18:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
"Co-operation, not competition is the very basis of existing life systems and of future survival." A quote from Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture. (If you never heard of Bill Mollison or Permaculture, Google them. WP has neither entry. Permaculture ethics involves three main concerns: caring for the earth, caring for the people, and sharing the surplus.)
I have been away from the discussion for a couple days. On returning and reading the latest developments, I am encouraged that we seem to be moving a little closer to the cooperative state. As I have said before, when we reach that state of interaction as editors on this article, we'll all have more fun, and the article will benefit from it. I still believe this article can become a Featured Article.
Disregarding the ongoing discussion of NPOV for a moment, the main body of the article is beginning to take a more balanced form (in my opinion, of course). I still feel the emphasis on criticisms that have been effectively rebutted or discridited is violating NPOV, but we can work on that piece by piece as our ability to cooperate gets better. Right now, I'm appreciating the progress made in the last week.
In reading the whole article, I found several mistakes, including typos, mistaken attributions, etc. that I want to deal with over the next days. Most will involve points about which there will likely be ageement among the current editors. What I will do, however, is list these items first on the talk page and let everyone reach consensus as to the intended changes (unless the consensus among editors is that I should go ahead and make the changes, as long as they are relatively minor, and give the reasons with each one).
Concerning the NPOV issues we have been discussing related to proportionality, even though this problem permeates the article in several ways, at least with the peer reviewed papers, I have a suggestion. I mentioned this problem to a colleague the other day, and he suggested that we insert citations for all the published papers, with links to the actual paper or abstract where possible. This could be done in a way that would not greatly expand the length of the article. I'll give a bit more detail of this possibility later, so we can get feedback on the logistics. However, this move would help to meet the proportionality rule we have been discussing. It would be easy, in this context, to list the critical reviews and the published rebuttals to these reviews, too, all without offering any of our own opinions regarding what is "truth." Again, I congratulate everyone on the recent increase in cooperation. ChemistryProf 06:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Having discovered the lack of WP entries on Bill Mollison and permaculture, I look forward to creating these someday. Here is the URL for a great interview with Mollison: http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC28/Mollison.htm . I like the introduction that precedes the interview. It reminds me of the reception that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his Transcendental Meditation technique have received over the years, especially this sentence: “But whether it's glowing admiration or sneering dismissal, reaction to Mollison is invariably strong.”
Thanks for the advice and feedback, Tanaats and Sethie. If I hear similar confirmation from TimidGuy, I’ll be off and running. ChemistryProf 21:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
All right, I will begin adding references, with the goal of referencing every peer reviewed article ever written on the Transcendental Meditation program. I will be slowed down a little, however, due to needing to travel across country to visit my 90-year-old mom, who is in the hospital with pneumonia. I expect to have some time to work while there, but perhaps not nearly as much as I might if I were at home. Please bear with me, everyone.
Thanks, Tanaats, for the specific suggestion about adding a brief note to each reference in the reference section. This will be useful in many cases. Also, on the topic of cooperation, if anyone has peer reviewed papers that are not now referenced and wants them to be, please supply them to me here in the discussion and I will make sure they get included.
I was wrong about Bill Mollison and permaculture not being on WP. Tonight I found them all over the place. I don't know what happened the other day when I searched. I must have mispelled both, but I could have sworn I spelled them correctly. Oh well, one fewer project to think about. ChemistryProf 05:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Michaelbusch, please read the long discussions over the past couple of weeks concerning the need for proportionality to maintain a neutral point of view NPOV on this controversial article. While other ways of dealing with this issue may be necessary for non-peer reviewed publications, at least for the peer reviewed ones, an agreement has been reached on an equitable, fair way to appropriately represent all sides of the issue by referencing, in a brief manner, all the papers. If you feel this is not the case, then please put your reasons up for discussion. Thank you. ChemistryProf 07:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Tanaats. Mother appears to be gradually improving; however, she needs help to do just about anything, so I am much busier that I expected to be. Today is the first day I have had time to get back on the Internet.
My earlier query, which everyone seemed to answer in the positive, was why it would not be totally proportional to cite every published paper. By leaving nothing out, either positive or negative, how could it not be proportional? ChemistryProf 22:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
A summary of every study is not going in this article, sorry to disapoint you gentlemen.
A summary of every study about a particular subject (when we are talking about 200+ studies) is not going into any article about that subject. You could try and do a "Research on _____" article. The wiki community MIGHT allow that, though my hunch is that in the case of TM, such an article would be deleted as an advertisement. Sethie 09:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Back for a few minutes only. Mom is at home now and I am her chief attendant, so not much time to contribute to this important discussion. Tanaats, please explain your last statement above. I am unclear on both your first sentence and your last one. Please give me a better handle on what you mean. Thanks. ChemistryProf 21:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if the intro says something that is more qualified, such as "Maharishi describes the TM technique as being effortless, and that this effortless distinguishes it from other techniques that involve concentrion or contemplation." Tanaats 18:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I like each topic heading to be clear about what is being talked about, so I coppied your comments from there to a new section:
This discussion highlights a problem with the religion section. I believe stringing quotes together, as has been done, constitutes original research. For example, "Official TM teachings include teachings about 'God'". Who says that it's an "official" teaching? And who says that just because Maharishi says something about God that suggests that TM is a religion? I believe this whole section is OR. You need an authority who says this is a religious practice and cites a range of evidence and offers analysis. It's possible that a valid argument could be made. You need to do your homework and find it, rather than quoting Activistcash.com. TimidGuy 12:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The section claims that TM is a relgion -- Markovsky says it's a stealth religion, Ryan says that people worship Maharishi. The whole point of the section, explicitly and implicity, is to say TM is a religion. And that is supported by stringing quotes together. I believe that just putting in quotes without any context, any analysis or interpretation, without any reference to authoritative opinion -- that is, a qualified secondary source that's making the claim and backing it up -- makes them primary materials. And the guidelines say, "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research."
What you really need is a qualified secondary source. And I'm betting that such a source exists. That source might draw on former meditators or from critics like Markovsky, but it would also bring in other evidence. It would systematically martial facts and quotes and opinions and definitions. Indeed, it might bring together the sorts of materials you've presented. But Wikipedia editors can't do that; it's necessary to find a qualified secondary source to do it. It would make your argument stronger. And it would feel more like an encyclopedia.
Really what we need to do is identify a model article -- one that's a featured article, and see how the really good editors do it. Do other articles throw in quotes without context? In fact, do featured articles draw so heavily on quotes? I get the impression from the guidelines that one is supposed to find qualified secondary sources and then simply present that information, not necessarily even quoting the source. Just present it in paraphrase and then give a citation to the source.
Hope you have patience with me. I just want this to be a better article. And everything I read in the guidelines and in the discussion of those suggests that this article could be better in accord with them. TimidGuy 19:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the guideline I had in mind from WP:OR when I made the above points: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.[2] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." I believe this could be an example of a new synthesis of material.
Tanaats, I believe that giving the quotes from Markovsky and Ryan serves to make the claim that TM is a relgion. TimidGuy 20:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually TG if you read that section, you will see NOWHERE does it claim TM is a religion. It contains statement by others that it is. WP:V- verfiability, not truth.
We have a sociologist, a judge, former teachers, the NRM website, dictionaries, Maharishi's biographer, encyclopedias, and quotes from Maharishi himself, all asserting that it is a religion or is religious in nature. MOST, not all of the cited facts which are in that section are spoken by one of these sources. So you can drop the claim it is OR, it is just false.
Numerous people list it as a cult! Cults are by definition, religious. The Judge in the Court case ruled on specific components of SCI and TM that now, by law, in the US, are considered religious. I look forward to spelling out all the specifics he ruled on.
Olive, again, you say you want to add in the spiritulity angle. And again, I say, FIND SOURCES. Find sources. Quote them. Put them in. Sethie 18:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
To all... I haven't added anything to this article because a) I was asked by Tanaats not to until the RfC was complete, and b) as I said before, the structure of the article is weak, and I would only add to the jumble. I wanted to reformat so that information could be easily added.I have asked for /discussed this a couple of times. I will not add or do anything until RfC is complete.( olive 23:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
Tanaats, I was suggesting that Sethie has proven my point by first insisting that the section doesn't say that TM is a religion and then insisting that it shows TM is a religion. Regarding stringing together things to make a point. I think there's a difference. A scientific study is an extended treatment of a topic, making a strong case for cause and effect. The reason for the study is to show whether there's a correlation and a possible cause and effect.
On the other hand, taking a miscellaneous quote from Maharishi out of context isn't the same thing. If a qualified secondary source, an expert in religion as the guidelines require, were to examine many statements by Maharishi and then say that TM is a religion, then this would be something that could be represented in Wikipedia. If any of the instances cited in the religion section were qualified secondary sources, that is, "informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion," then that source itself could be used. But none of these sources are qualified secondary sources. Rather, what we have are various quotes etc from various sources strung together in a way that seems to violate this policy:
WP:OR "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.[2] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."
We've got a number of well-defined RfCs. This will be very instructive. Thanks for having patience and hanging with these discussions. Hopefully we'll all eventually have a better idea of how the policies and guidelines can make this a better article. I've been waiting on the RfCs due to the pending mediation, since I believe a person is barred from editing if mediation commences. TimidGuy 12:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph below seems to be confused:
In 1979 the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197) that under the Establishment Clause[1] of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution the teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)[2] could not be taught in New Jersey public schools. The Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion. The lower court based its decision in part on its examination of the puja ceremony that is performed by teachers of Transcendental Meditation prior to giving instruction. The appellate court said that the puja wasn't an issue.
The TM movement states the puja is a ceremony of gratitude. Judge Meanor, the lower court judge, was concerned with the portion of the ceremony in which Guru Dev, Maharishi's teacher, is praised as "the Lord," as "Him" and as Eternal and perfect.[62] At the appellate level, Judge Adams emphasized the secular nature of the ceremony, referring to it as “a secular puja, quite common in Eastern cultures” and distinguished it from unlawful school prayer because: “(a) the Puja was never performed in a school classroom, or even on government property; (b) it was never performed during school hours, but only on a Sunday; (c) it was performed only once in the case of each student; (d) it was entirely in Sanskrit, with neither the student nor, apparently, the teacher who chanted it, knowing what the foreign words meant. Moreover, the elements of involuntariness present in Engel and Schempp are wholly absent here.” [63]
As it says in the first para, the final ruling was by a Federal Circuit Court. It's ruling was to confirm the decision of the lower court. The injunction issued by the Jude Meanor against teaching SCI in NJ public schools is still in effect today.
The only way Judge Adams could have issued that statement is if we was the author of a minority opinion, but we have no cite for that. Unless someone can explain why I am confused about this, and unless we can find a cite for the second para, I think that the second para needs to come out. Tanaats 21:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking now that Judge Adams probably rejected the "puja argument", yet still concurred with upholding the lower court's decision. I'm glad that we had this little discussion. :) Tanaats 14:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry folks, just realized that I created two sections on this. I must have thought I'd forgotten to save the first section! Sheesh. Tanaats 14:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph below seems to be confused:
In 1979 the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197) that under the Establishment Clause[1] of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution the teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)[2] could not be taught in New Jersey public schools. The Establishment Clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and financially supporting a national religion. The lower court based its decision in part on its examination of the puja ceremony that is performed by teachers of Transcendental Meditation prior to giving instruction. The appellate court said that the puja wasn't an issue.
The TM movement states the puja is a ceremony of gratitude. Judge Meanor, the lower court judge, was concerned with the portion of the ceremony in which Guru Dev, Maharishi's teacher, is praised as "the Lord," as "Him" and as Eternal and perfect.[62] At the appellate level, Judge Adams emphasized the secular nature of the ceremony, referring to it as “a secular puja, quite common in Eastern cultures” and distinguished it from unlawful school prayer because: “(a) the Puja was never performed in a school classroom, or even on government property; (b) it was never performed during school hours, but only on a Sunday; (c) it was performed only once in the case of each student; (d) it was entirely in Sanskrit, with neither the student nor, apparently, the teacher who chanted it, knowing what the foreign words meant. Moreover, the elements of involuntariness present in Engel and Schempp are wholly absent here.” [63]
As it says in the first para, the final ruling was by a Federal Circuit Court. It's ruling was to confirm the decision of the lower court. The injunction issued by the Jude Meanor against teaching SCI in NJ public schools is still in effect today.
The only way Judge Adams could have issued that statement is if we was the author of a minority opinion, but we have no cite for that. Unless someone can explain why I am confused about this, and unless we can find a cite for the second para, I think that the second para needs to come out. Tanaats 21:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
According to this, Judge Adams ruled that the teaching of SCI in public schools violated the Establishment Clause.
And according to this, Judge Adams wrote a concurring opinion.
So I really doubt that the second paragraph is at all accurate. Tanaats 05:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Ahhh, perhaps Adams dismissed the puja argument while still supporting the CC's overall decision to uphold the lower court's decision. Tanaats 05:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad we had this little talk. :) Tanaats 05:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I now have some court papers in hand, as well as the original JAMA article, the article by Skolnick, and the published rebuttals. I'd like to gradually add some detail to this section. TimidGuy 12:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been looking into the details of the paper presented as countenance in the validity section. It appears to have been written by someone who has a substantial conflict of interest in the matter, and who appears to be decidedly biased on the matter. Despite those facts it is being presented uncritically as objective fact and without comment on the authors connection. This is highly misleading to the readers. I have reworded it to reflect the overall notability of the objection and to make note of the authors affiliations. If the study criticized truly has faults then it should be possible to find independent criticisms written by objective parties in other journals. Jefffire 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
A subsequent study found that this report was based on a report commissioned by the U.S. Army in 1986. "The NRC review was based almost entirely on a single unpublished review (Brener & Connally, 1986) and overlooked virtually all of the research current to the review, including numerous studies directly bearing on its conclusions. Even though the review cited a bibliography of hundreds of studies on meditation in its reference section (Murphy & Donovan, 1988, 1999), it did not include this material in its review."<ref>Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Hawkins, M. A. (2005). Critique of the National Research Council’s report on meditation. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,17(1), 383-414</ref>
...although the report has been criticised by TM researchers <ref>Orme-Johnson, D. W., Alexander, C. N., & Hawkins, M. A. (2005). Critique of the National Research Council’s report on meditation. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality,17(1), 383-414</ref>.
I don't recall making that claim at all. I reduced the size of the contribution on the basis of undue weight, and noted the contributer's affiliations. I certainly did not "remove" the criticism, it's still there. I would appreciation a ceasation of non-truths on your part. Jefffire 12:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, we are discussing this in the first place because the material has some flaws in it....doesn't stand up to scrutiny... and frankly the shortened version of the added article is somewhat patronizing:(.... what is a TM researcher for heaven's sake. These people are respected researchers in their fields, whether they are doing research on TM or on something else. Thanks Tanaats for fielding this on your own, and for your integrity in attempting to maintain the correct neutrality of the article whatever your personal opinions might be. Sorry, if I've gone on and on trying to explain. ( olive 05:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
oops sorry forgot to include edit summary with the discussion.( olive 14:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
The article is currently 56 KB long. This seems rather lengthly, and in light of the above discussion, without a change in editing, it will grow larger. In my opinion, much of the material in the article is interesting, but not particularly relevant. I tried to remove some material that seemed largely irrelevant, but encountered objection. So: what parts of the article may be condensed and edited down to make it both concise and accurate? Michaelbusch 22:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
General thoughts on removing material: this article seems to aspire to present anything anyone ever said about TM. That is excessive. This is an encyclopedia: we only want to have a first approximation with the most important information. Material that is tangential to the main points of the article is distracting and not usefl and should either be moved to secondary articles or removed completely. I put the statement that TM is 'effortless' and the details of Maharishi's sales pitch for the history of TM in the category of being unnecessary, as well as the problems associated with sounding like advertising. There are similar bits throughout the article.
Note also: the style of the article is still pretty rough. The article lacks overall cohesion and, on a strictly typographical level, needs a lot of editing. Michaelbusch 16:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the RfC. Jefffire deleted reference to the Maharishi Effect study that appeared in the peer-reviewed Social Indicators Research and referenced the guideline on fringe. Most of the discussion has been in that context. The RfC has shifted the focus to his edit of the NRC rebuttal that appeared in the Journal or Social Behavior and Personality -- an edit that he justified in his Edit Summary by referring to the fringe guideline but hasn't yet discussed on the Talk page.
Thanks, Tanaats, for exploring the issue of the relevance of this guideline. TimidGuy 12:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Proposing an edit war is deeply incivil behaviour. Now I have explained why it is deeply disingious to present this study uncritically beside other, plausible studies and why it should be mentioned elsewhere. You have yet to respond to this rational. Jefffire 12:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I will try not to be long winded here:) This is preliminary but necessary references for my next points
Sthapatya Veda for example is one of the aspects of Vedic literature.
Suggestions:
although, research on TM could always be left on TM site as long as it is specific to TM technique or TM Sidhi Program... Possible rewrite of first line on TM:
Transcendental Meditation or TM, the experiential, practical side of Maharishi Vedic Science, and a trademarked form of meditation introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, involves the repetition of a specific sound, called a mantra... well,let me know what you all think.( olive 17:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
Olive says above that "TMO and TM Movement are outdated terms, within this organization." What would be the proposed alternatives? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Olive suggests chaning the title to "Transcendental Meditation and Related Programs". Discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC )
" Transcendental Meditation Technique and Related Programs" Being very clear at this point about what we are talking about will perhaps save us time and discussion later on , eh?( olive 17:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
Olive, suggests that we move 'Related Programs' material to MVS site. In addition, I suggest that we consolidate some of the various subarticles into a single larger MVS article (see above). Discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
See initial discussion above. Any further discussion? Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
A section for Olive to expand on her proposal for the treatment of religion and spirituality in the article. Tanaats 18:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Any questions about what terms are or are not currently used by the TMO are resolved here, as far as I know:
I can certainly cite this but I wonder if its really necessary. All this is saying is that the TM technique is the "do" part of MVS as opposed to the "application to life"part-vedic literature.There is no comment on the experience, what it is or anything like that. This is a neutral statement. If you still want a citation let me know , I'll put it in but I think its not necessary and will chop things up a bit —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Littleolive oil ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
yikes, sorry forgot to sign .... also referring to intro , words "practical , experiential" ( olive 17:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
My mistake, it is listed as a guideline.
Please note, the guideline you are refferencing speaks of unsourced material. It says nothing about sourced material that is innacurate. Sethie 21:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting stuff. I just found out on Help that reverting OR doesn't count against 3RR. Tanaats 02:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
That's nonsense, I'm afraid. What is "Help"...? Wherever you read that, you were misled, or misunderstood. Please review the 3RR policy page and you will see that it is only reverting the clearest cases of simple and obvious vandalism that "doesn't count" against the 3RR. OR is hardly ever simple or obvious vandalism. Note also that the 3RR is not an entitlement to revert three times a day. It sounds like you're looking at the rule from altogether the wrong angle. Gaming or skirting the 3RR is in itself a blockable offense. Please just don't revert war, that's the only way of making sure the 3RR doesn't bite you. Bishonen | talk 02:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
This may have been the misleading comment: [8]. Dreadlocke ☥ 04:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Whew!.... I didn't delete this section just a few words I think it was something like "TM technique is described by the TM organization..... this seemed awkward, so I took out two or three words to "TM is described . I also felt that we are describing this according to the organization , so this was implied ....that is, who said this ..... The citation to the TM site explains TM as experiential and practical ..... Tanaats objected to these words I understood, so I was covering my basis by finding a source for them. Thankyou Tanaats..I realized after I has hit saved that "signed" was the wrong word to use here and also that I had looked in the wrong place .... but some of my edit info had disappeared so feeling confused by this .... apologies for this
from deleted citation ...the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation program and a program of reading the Vedic Literature as formulated by His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. These two programs represent the principal educational methodology of Maharishi Vedic Science [10]
and as further explanation of vedic science
This field can be directly experienced in the simplest state of everyone's awareness through Maharishi's Technologies of Consciousness... Complete knowledge of consciousness is available in Veda and the Vedic Literature. Maharishi has completely restored the thousands-of-years-old Vedic Literature for the total significance of its theory and practice, and has organised it in the form of a complete science of consciousness-Maharishi's Vedic Science and Technology. [11] The Maharishi Vedic Technologies of Consciousness include the practical, scientifically validated program called the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program. [12]
Please present how you want to summarize this source, then I can tell you if it clarifies things or not. The current version is unnacceptable... it introduces a meaning that is nowhere to be found on the sources you listed.
Sethie 21:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
sorry I have taken so long to take care of this - have been sick .... I have added a single citation that is not so obtuse as is all of what is above and that i think carries all of the information we need for this single line. I have placed pertinent parts of the quote and the explanation for the quote below:
"This field can be directly experienced in the simplest state of everyone's awareness through Maharishi's Technologies of Consciousness."and,"The Maharishi Vedic Technologies of Consciousness include the practical, scientifically validated program called the Maharishi Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program."
This is already in place, the article already says,"Maharishi describes TM as being the experiential side of Maharishi Vedic Science. This is a succinct paraphrase of the material above. ( olive 20:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
The article has been fairly stable -- though a tenacious defense by Tanaats was required to stem some controversial deletions. : ) It may be a good opportunity to get feedback on several specific issues that we've agreed would benefit from input from others. I'd like to start with Denaro today or tomorrow. As before, I won't post a notice to the RfC page until each party to the dispute has had a chance to make a one-paragraph Statement.
Also, as I understand it, the Comments area is primarily for people who are new to the issue -- not us regulars who are here every day duking it out. : ) TimidGuy 12:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether controversial statements from an affidavit, which is quoted in The Skeptic's Dictionary, should be quoted in this article on Transcendental Meditation.
TimidGuy requested my input based on my participation in WP:RS so I've had a look over the area in question. I'm conscious that that this debate is quite involved so I'm trying to focus just on the reliability aspects although I will say that I am an experienced meditator and my experience of TM practitioners has left me reasonably ambivalent towards the method. Notwithstanding all of that it would be useful to drop a note on the RS talk page about this RFC to get some other views.
In summary, I think there is enough material to support the section, but usage at the moment needs some work, and probably more investigation to find reliable sources. Skeptics Dictionary itself shouldn't be used because it doesn't add value and provides links through to other sources. Hope that's useful. ALR 08:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The extent and scope of the deception before, during and after becoming "initiated" (their term) into TM-Sidhi programs is so vast and far-reaching with enormous potential for severe injury, and, even death, that it is impossible, within this necessarily abbreviated brief, to document it all.
At para. 17, President Morris claims "heightened intellectual clarity." As a professor who taught at MIU that claim is false. The effect is the opposite: a spaced-out, unfocused, zombie-like automaton, incapable of critical thinking is the more usual "benefit" of prolonged meditation.
In fact, meditation was used as an excuse (probably valid) by my students for not completing a project much in the way a "virus" or "the flu" debilitates the average college student. The consequences of intensive, or even regular, meditation was so damaging and disruptive to the nervous system, that students could not enroll in, or continue with, regular academic programs.
Many of my students offered as an excuse for not being able to sit for an examination or write a paper, the fact that they had a "bad meditation" or just "got off rounding" (group TM) and haven't gotten "back to earth yet."
13. The source of my statement that the deceptions existed, were substantial and material, were intentional, and have detrimental consequences are my personal and professional observations (I lived on campus with faculty, staff and students), internal "secret" correspondence (not privileged), president council meetings, faculty senate meetings, executive sessions and conferences with MIU and WPEC-US hierarchy.
The individuals I spoke to included, but are not limited to, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, on or about December 6-9, 1975 on campus (at least two private conferences while he presided over a physics conference at MIU), Keith Wallace ([then])President), Steve Druker, Steve Schwartz, Sy Migdal, Robert Winquist ([then]Vice President), Ed Tarabilda, Dean of Students Dennis Raimundi, Robin Babov, Professors Michael Weinless, Barbara Edison, and Franklin Mason, Vice President David Clay (Vice President of Administration) and psychologist Jonathan Shapiro.
Tanaats 17:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)14. A simple review of internal correspondence reflects the inconsistency between the outward, sanitized, "safe" public image they try to present, and the frequently dangerous reality of TM-Sidhi techniques.
An affidavit is certainly a self-published primary source and that should only be used to presents the opinion of the person signing it, in an article about that person (if that person's notability warrants an article in WP, that is). The fact that it is referred to in Tod Carrol's SD, means that it may be admissible as it is reported on a secondary source. My concern is that this secondary source is not necessarily neutral. I would support ALR's call to find better sources, and in the meantime, reduce the too-long a quotation from that affidavit, summarizing the affidavit's comments into something more encyclopedic. If this affidavit is only mentioned in the SD, then I would argue that it may be not a good source for this article, but that is something that involved editors will need to agree upon. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
RE: Denaro's claims and the RS issue. There's what is said in WP:RS about bias in non-scholarly sources:
In the case of Denaro, he explicitly states, in point 29, which was deleted from the wikipedia TM article some time ago, that in his opinion, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is "more dangerous than Jim Jones, who enticed 900 of his followers to commit suicide." That seems to point to bias and should be mentioned whenever this affidavit is mentioned. Sparaig 22:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Tanaats, I feel like you've ignored the main thrust of the comments from ALR and Jossi. And I feel like you're ignoring the Wikipedia guidelines related to primary and secondary sources. The affidavit is a primary source. The guidelines say that primary sources can't stand alone. Primary sources, especially those that make controversial claims, require corroboration by expert secondary sources. Both ALR and Jossi question Carroll as a secondary source. You have yet to give evidence that Carroll meets the criteria of a secondary source. Jossie notes that the affidavit is a primary source, hence needs corroboration. ALR feels the affidavit needs corroboration and that Skeptic's Dictionary shouldn't be used. Jossi questions use of the Skeptic's Dictionary and supports ALRs call to find better sources to corroborate the affidavit. He says that if a better source isn't found, he would argue that the affidavit shouldn't be used.
I feel we were fortunate to get the feedback of two experienced editors who have played an active role in shaping the guidelines, and I think their points are good. I'm surprised that you seem to be arguing that opinion is acceptable if it's presented as opinion. If that's acceptable, I'll write an affidavit today in which I describe how Denaro admitted to lying during cross examination, get it notarized, put an image on a web site, and then reference it in the article.
And on a minor related point, I think you're flat out wrong when you say, "The only issues that an appellate court is allowed to rule on are points of law. They never rule on points of fact." TimidGuy 12:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
My computer has been down for several days and I have come back to the discussion above.
I realize that this discussion is not about the university but about the use of certain materials. However I wondered if these points had been really considered as an aid in attempting to create a truly neutral viewpoint. No response necessary or wanted, since I am not an editor originally involved in this dispute. ( olive 21:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
I found an RS. Tanaats 21:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Found all 5 pages, including signature [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Tanaats 05:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I reworded the line about the German government study to reflect what was actually going on. The german government interviewed 27 people who had complaints about TM and (surprise!) more than 75% of them reported adverse effects from TM.
Here's a couple of newsgroup comments by Roger D Nelson of PEAR, who read the study and gave an informal review of it in the sci.skeptics newsgroup just over 11 years ago, wearing the hat of someone who had performed a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on meditation for the NIH. Note that he was talking to John Knapp, whose website was the source for the Skeptic Dictionary entry and that John still hasn't changed his website to reflect their conversation 11 years ago:
[24]
Roger D. Nelson, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) C-131 E-Quad, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544 voice: 609 258-5370 fax: 609 258-1993 rdnel...@princeton.edu http://www.princeton.edu/~rdnelson/index.html
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparaig ( talk • contribs) 13:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
My editing of remakrs on German study was reverted, partly because the citation didn't support the remarks. That's certainly true since the citation no longer mentions that study.
Transcendental Meditation, John Carroll, The Skeptic's Dictionary
Sparaig 18:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Sparaig newsgroups are your thing.... and you have been here long enough, and I doubt Tanaats and I are nowhere near the first to tell you that they don't cut it on wikipedia. Please discuss "news"groups elsewhere. :) If newsgroups were considered a reliable source of information..... well, the TM organization would be in for a WOLRD of hurt. People, including various "reputables" have spoken some hard smack on newsgroups about TM.
Sethie 05:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
3 groups of people were interviewed:
The guidelines explicity require peer review and publication in an academic journal: WP:RS: "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." TimidGuy 12:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Peer-reviewed journals are normally RS , unless there is some reason otherwise. In this case there is very good reason otherwise.
The actual article can be found in Ebsco Academic Search Premier for those with access. On its first page, it says: Author Affiliation: Maharishi University of Management for all 3 of the authors So it is obvious from its face that this article is most definitely a COI source; based on the info. about the journal, nothing in the journal is a RS. It's a vanity publisher. Any journal can claim to be peer-reviewed.
Any more help you'd like from an objective librarian, let me know. DGG 00:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[27] where it says Location: Not at NLM
Some response points to DGG
- a journal's database inclusion status may change over time - all journals are subject to various financial realities and may change from monthly to quarterly or yearly to even suspension of publication for periods of time - i have seen this many times in 25 years of authoring and referencing articles in science - the salient point is whether a journal was peer reviewed, and then perhaps also was included in any of the standard databases, at the time of publication
- this journal is currently indexed in NLM's pubmed and has an NLM ID - it's status as not being held by NLM means nothing editorially - this journal happens to be held at the UC Berkeley library, which is where NLM holds many of its west coast 'regionally catalogued' items (which is how this catalogued journal is described as being held at the NLM locator link) - for your reference, NLM does not physically hold anywhere near all of their indexed journals - they also make use of 8 other very large university libraries (such as NYU, Univ of Chicago and UC Berkeley) to be repositories for their extensive catalogue index of journals and books in all of their databases
- JSBP is also currently listed in the Psycinfo database (which is maintained by the APA - American Psychological Association)
- as far as your claim that JSBP is a vanity press, please give a reference for that - that is both OR and also seems to be incorrect
- i'm not sure what you meant when you attributed to me a comment on technical reports not being peer reviewed. if by technical reports you mean technical/physical science research results, the ones with scientific credibility are indeed all peer reviewed
- i am not sure what exactly the implication was, but for clarification, the NRC paper was neither a technical research report nor was it peer review published, and as such should not be included for reference and discussion on wikipedia, at least not ahead of papers that have been
- this JSBP paper which critiqued the NRC paper however, was peer review published, and could conceivably be included as relevant (though with the intended removal of the NRC paper reference and discussion, is likely not necessary)
- and where certain peer review journals may be listed in more databases and/or may be considered to be more authoritive in a given field than others in that field, for scientific credibility, in all cases being published in a peer reviewed journal is significantly preferred to not being peer reviewed (as is the case with the NRC paper and the so-called German study, neither of which were nor likely would have been peer review published, due to substantial flaws and omissions) Duedilly 21:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie, I feel your comment in your statement is deceptive. Carroll clearly explains that "occult" is his umbrella term to refer to the topics in his dictionary. And in his intro he is clearly stating that he doesn't intend to present a balanced view in the book. My use of an ellipsis was appropriate, rather than taking space in my Statement to explain Carroll's use of the term "occult." TimidGuy 13:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I have rarely been bothering to make edit comments when posting here in Talk. I didn't think it necessary since we were always either making a new comment or replying to someone else's comment, and we didn't need an edit comment to tell us which it was.
However TimidGuy makes edit comments as a regular practice. I have come to realize that TimidGuy's edit comments are actually very helpful. When I look in History, by seeing his edit comments I am often reminded that I have already read that diff. This is especially helpful when his edit is the first one in History but I can't remember whether or not I've already read the diff. Because of his edit comments I can often remember that I've already read the diff and therefore I don't have to waste even a little bit of time by looking at it again.
May I suggest that we all start making edit comments here? They wouldn't have to be very long. Thanks. Tanaats 20:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I see the founder of TM is named as "Maharishi" numerous times in this article. The first time I saw it, I thought "Hm; 'Maharishi' is a title. I should change that to 'the Maharishi.'" Before I did, though, I noticed the multiple uses of "Maharishi" as though it was his first name.
Now, I know it's not uncommon for people to think titles with which they're not familar are names ("Mahatma", for example, or "Buddha"), but is that correct here? Shouldn't he be referred to either by name or by the title as a title?
*
Septegram*
Talk*
Contributions* 18:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Please refer to Maharishi Vedic Science site/article for viewing, comments, etc.( olive 18:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC))
I had fallen under a bad influence awhile back when I was led to believe that deletion of well-sourced material was ipso facto "vandalism". I have somewhat recently been advised by Bishonen that content edits that are not blatent obvious deliberate destruction are not considered to be "vandalism." I apologize to Roseapple and the other editor (I have forgotten exactly who it was) who I threatened with the "vandalism" stick. Tanaats 16:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I felt no resentment; it was a good learning experience for me! But I appreciate your apology. Roseapple 19:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to make sure that everyone saw the information under discussion on the MVS site. I had said that if there were no objections by Friday I would go ahead and delete the old material off of the TM site. I realized that some of you may not have seen that discussion so, I'll wait until Monday and then delete if there are no objections.( 63.162.81.220 18:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
I have deleted the "Related Programs" on the TM site. I see extending the MVS site more as an organizational move. Hopefully the site will be easily accessible in terms of what goes where , and will be organic in nature so material can be added quickly and easily in its appropriate slot. I am still thinking about adding something more on the TM site about MVS but it does feel as if its not needed, so will leave that for now. ( olive 16:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC))
Hi, Betty. I reverted the comments you inserted into the aricle. Note that we've already discussed at length on this page whether it's appropriate or necessary to identify the affiliation of David Orme-Johnson and the other authors of the JSBP article with the TM organization. Generally, Tanaats, Duedilly, and I feel that it's Original Research to do so. And the discussion has also suggested that it shows a misunderstanding of the scientific process.
If you'd like to improve the article, it would be great if you could write a citation for the NRC report. It's been tagged "citation needed" for months. Also, we need to address the fact that the 1991 report was about meditation in general. It's not clear what implications it has regarding the research specifically on Transcendental Meditation. TimidGuy 20:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone who is familiar with past discussions tell me why the NRC paragraph should be in this article? There is no citation so I can't read the report myself; if it truly is about meditation in general rather than TM then it seems it shouldn't be under a heading called "Validity of TM Research" and would be more appropriately located in the wiki article about meditation. Thank you. Roseapple 15:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
No one has responded with a citation or rationale for this study so I am going to delete it as per discussion above. (Hope nobody minds.) Roseapple 15:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Not sure the citation of Otis is accurate. Otis never published a single study on TM in any peer-reviewed journal. The link is to a reprint of section of his book:
As the mediator here I must admit that I tend to give less credence to people who dont sign their posts. Not doing so indicates at the very least an unfamiliarity with our customs of editing here -- something all parties in any legitimate dispute should be familiar with before getting into various arguments. - Ste| vertigo 01:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC) PS: Ive subordinated your title because we are in mediation, and all involved parties should participate in the mediation program. - Ste| vertigo 01:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Ive taken this case to mediate. Ive familiarised myself with the basics. Whats the greatest issue of dispute at the moment? Here are my basic thoughts for the issues listed. For these problems:
We will:
- Ste| vertigo 08:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have a question: is it appropriate to use "Maharishi" as the referred name in the article? - Ste| vertigo 01:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is what the Allahabad alumnus entry on the guy says:
Its not a major sticking point as long as we indicate in a footnote that the decision to use Maharishi is based on familiarity and uniqueness of the name (and relatively speaking, the culture). Otherwise It would be preferable to use Sri M.C. Srivastava. - Ste| vertigo 01:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: confused: Mahesh Prasad Varma or Sri M.C. Srivastava - Sri is also an honorific isnt it? - Ste| vertigo 01:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Id like people to participate in a vote to help me identify which problem areas need to be taken care of. These are the material issues:
Id like each of you to state your position in a sentence or two, in voting format. - Ste| vertigo 01:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Mediation issues: In regards to Denaro affidavit
The Denaro affidavit is a primary source, the opinion of its author, whose credibility is disputed by the legal council of the university in question. These are unproven and questionable allegations, are serious, are defamatory, and may impact a functioning university.
See above. In addition, the presented secondary source is The Skeptic’s Dictionary. For the kinds of serious allegations reported, a highly reliable secondary source seems a minimum requirement. Carroll reports that the dictionary does: “not try to present a balanced account”, and that there is “no peer or professional review process”. [31]. These seem unlikely attributes for a “Reliable Source”
Research on the university indicates its status with Higher Learning Commission and its, required by law, accounts of crime on campus. These points seem to have not been taken into account especially when presenting defamatory information.
Am not sure what voting format is .... hope this is appropriate. Thanks.( olive 03:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
PS: Question: How do people feel about an article split? - Ste| vertigo 11:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I feel like RS is the area of greatest concern -- POV book (Skeptic), POV web sites (Trancenet, etc.), non-peer-reviewed study (Otis), self-published book (Mason biography), primary sources with no proper secondary source context (Denaro affidavit, etc.)
Next would be undue weight (which you address very clearly in your comments above) -- undue emphasis on a couple studies compared to hundreds of peer-reviewd studies that suggest benefits, and undue emphasis on criticism (which until a few weeks ago constituted almost exactly two-thirds of the article as measured by word count).
Third would be OR -- the collection of primary sources and quotations in order to draw a conclusion, such as the section that argues that Transcendental Meditation is a religion.
By the way, as I understand it, an affidavit is simply a notarized statement. Also, Denaro's affidavit isn't part of the court record in Kropinski vs. WPEC. If the affidavit were referenced, how would then one reference an affidavit that's been written by the Maharishi University of Management legal counsel that says that Denaro misrepresented his relationship to the university and that makes statements that reflect on Denaro's credibility? (Note that both the legal counsel's affidavit and Denaro's aren't technically affidavits but are attorney's statements which they certify to be true -- apparently considered to be the equivalent of an affidavit.) TimidGuy 13:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry if you feel insulted. In no way was I making a personal comment about you or your ability to be rational and neutral. (The Wikipedian lifestyle may in fact require being zealous about NPOV, but I often also chastise the science set for confusing science point of view with neutral point of view. "I was expressing an opinion and looking for some understanding into what has become complex issues for us." I don't understand what you're meaning is here. You mention "us." I didn't realise I was mediating with an organization. Such an organisation - one which pursues people in court over defamation and so forth - no doubt has an agenda which is to protect its image. On that basis I may have made a personal assumption that you were operating somewhat from that camp, with that stance. Certainly you are someone who is more reasonable than I may have assumed, and perhaps, consider the possibility that you are more reasonable than some of your associated peers.
It is easy for me to think as that you are having some difficulty reconciling your practice and the statements surrounding it with external values such as NPOV - or at least my presented interpretation of it. I glad that you corrected me on that. But when you use the word "complex" - I cant help but point out the distinction between you and the organization itself: you may have complex issues which I can offer understanding and respect to. The organization you are associated with has a somewhat different set of "complex issues" - trying to get published in JAMA for example. I think what it comes down to is the question of what complex issues are the organizations? Would it be neutral and encyclopedic to simply state that TM has some "complex" (sic) relationship with different particular sets of beliefs, values, and principles? - Ste| vertigo 11:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible that given the amount of positive-outcome research on TM and the very small amount of peer-reviewed negative material (and I am not an expert in this area as Duedilly seems to be,so maybe there is no good RS research on negative outcomes in TM )that the neutrality is reached without this somewhat dubiously researched study.( olive 23:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
I realize that last statement is less than clear and hard to explain.... and this a very real question? Is there any RS material on negative -outcome TM and if not and until there is,is neutrality defined by the positive research only....( olive 23:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
I'll be bold and propose a solution. This represents how I would like to see the article. My goal isn't to remove all critical material, but to conform to the standards of Wikipedia and to proper encyclopedia style.
Anyway, just tossing out this proposal. TimidGuy 16:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to think about this more TG , but I wanted to mention I have done a fair amount of research on the religion spirituality area, that I had thought about showing everyone when finished, and asking for comments and consensus. I could continue with that. I also felt the cult material was poorly written and used the material from France in an overly extended and slanted way.I wonder if we can define cult ourselves but need to find a reliable source or sources that do define it ....My inexperience showing up here. I like the idea of presenting both sides of the cult situation. So I would love to look at this proposal more closely - rushing now .( olive 17:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC))
We probably want to postpone this discussion while mediation is going on, but I didn't want to lose the thread:
As I was looking through the criticism section, I noticed the claim that the court case was settled out of court. I previously had asked for a citation, however, I do not believe listing the court case court documents counts, unless the documents clearly state "case settled out of court." Is that the case?
I had provided a refference to Andrew Sckolnick's (one of the people who was sued) personal website in which he states the case was dismissed.
These are the facts I am aware of. Sethie 04:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sparaig 23:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sparaig 00:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
In keeping with my understanding of wikipedia citation guidelines, here is how I believe Otis should be referenced:
I guess my objection to Otis is two-fold: it's otherwise unpublished, and it singles out for TM a phenomenon that is widely known in Psychological literature anyway: "relaxation-induced anxiety," which even has its own
DSM-IV entry, IIRC. Also, there are strategies taught to TMers in how to deal with it that Otis never mentions. -
Sparaig 07:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Stevertigo, I do hope you'll read my comments in the "Mediation issues" thread in which I say again that I'd prefer not to split and suggest an alternate way of proceeding, starting with Otis. TimidGuy 17:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
You know there are like, I don't know, 10,000 discussions going on right now! :) If someone wants to open up another one about the mantra refference, feel free. I am reverting that removal for now. Sethie 17:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy stipulates a reliable source is "absolute and non-negotiable", and goes hand in hand with verifiable, now under the topic W:ATT., and also states that authors must be regarded as "trustworthy or authoritative". What level of trust we can place on information given by someone who publishes in any format proprietary knowledge?
I really feel we have made a lot of very good progress in creating a neutral site. This may not be up to the standards we have all worked towards. This information seems to violate OR and W: ATT - Verifiable and RS. I'd like to suggest we not use this material given these violations of Wikipedia policies. ( olive 17:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC))