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Thanks, Olive, Sethie, and Tanaats. I think that the aborted RfC brought out some good points that hadn't yet been raised.
Tanaats, I thought your Statement was well-crafted. Good job. Regarding your points -- How do you know that the court didn't get expert testimony from scientists? Also, even though it could be considered NPOV given that the court decision also appears in the article, I question whether it should appear at all, especially now that Sethie has added more detail. It gives an unfair impression. It's like saying, "Bob killed a kitten." Then a judge says, well he didn't really kill the kitten. But you're left wondering about Bob. And maybe it was just all made up in the first place.. Note that the court said that in over half the cases, the person interviewed had no direct knowledge. And only persons hostile to the TM organization were interviewed. And that the "studies were prepared by religious-ideological opponents of the TM movement." I think it creates an unfair impression and that it's not what Wikipedia has in mind as a reliable source in the context of a controversial issue.
Sethie, your point about sources might be valid if the second-party source had provided a better analysis and context, but in this case he doesn't. He refers to it as a "study" without any context at all, giving the reader the impression that it was published in a scientific journal. He gives no acknowledgment of the problems associated with the study. He just presents it as evidence. Here's how WP:RS defines secondary sources: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources." I don't think Carroll's presentation of the German study is "an informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration" of a primary source.
Frankly, when I read the guidelines I get a very different impression of what sources are considered acceptable than the impression I get from working on the TM article. I want to get a better frame of reference. One way to do that is via RfC. What can it hurt? You may be right. TimidGuy 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Littleolive, I'm going to change that back. It would be better to discuss something that has already proven to be a point of contention (as when Selphie reverted your prior attempt to introduce this dichotomy) on the Talk page first. Probably you're going to have quite a bit of trouble introducting this dichotomy without WP:OR and it should really be discussed first. Tanaats 22:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I am giving this another shot.... I really think that spirituality and religion as words have to be delineated to really begin to understand the complexity of whether TM is a religion or spiritual or both .... I am using Wikipedia itself to begin the article, and I think the material on Wikipeida is neither simplistic nor cut and dried on these two topics . There is argument for both slants but I think a definition of the word is important for the reader otherwise perhaps the material immediately takes a slant in one direction. By introducing the word spirituality the door opens for a deeper explanation/information than may be possible if we just approach this from the religion angle. Although I do have many opinions on this topic I was not implying one view or another, but just like language to be clear if possible. Although, I respect Sethie's suggestion that citing someone who believes TM is spiritual... well actually there are lots of people that do inside and outside the TM movement but seems to me better to go to a Wikipedia source that is more impartial maybe than an opinion . I think after all this is a complex philisophical point that needs lots of info.... Just a few thoughts on this ( olive 22:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC))\
Okey everyone, thanks, and points taken.However being of a somewhat stubborn nature and thinking this may be important... will see if I can make this work in an appropriate format .... thanks ( olive 04:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC))
Thank you for sharing your belief that calling th Bagavat Gita a "Hindu Scripture" is an expression of a POV. I don't deny that people call it an epic. Do you deny that it considered one of THE central texts of a religion called "Hinduism?" Sethie 14:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not made a change till we can sort this out, however, it is patent nonsense to link the BG to a page on the Vedas! Sethie 17:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sethie, I don't understand why you continue to add material to the article without first discussing. Why did you add the comment about not publishing in education journals? How is that a comment on the validity of the research? For example, maybe no articles have been submitted. Maybe no research has been done in this area. I feel like your hasty contributions damage the article. Look at the German study. We finally agreed that it wasn't good evidence for adverse effects. We should have discussed it first.
Again, please read the guideline on WP:Consensus. TimidGuy 20:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Much of our research has been in the area of health. And that's been published in absolutely the top medical journals. Why pick an area where we haven't done much empirical research and put in that as a criticism of the validity? TimidGuy 20:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Just so everyone understands what this study did:
The researchers were originally approached by people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed those people and asked for references to other people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed THOSE peopled and asked for more references to people who had complaints about TM and the TMO. This process continued until they couldn't find anyone else to interview. Out of what I estimate was a group of 100,000 people who had learned TM in Germany by that time, they found 10 current meditators and their spouses, 27 former meditators and 30 parents of meditators who were willing to talk privately to interviewers about issues they had with TM and the TMO. That's 37 out of 100,000 possible interviewees. And mind you, they ONLY interviewed people who had complaints. Of these 37 meditators and former meditators, 75% reported problems of some kind with TM. [2]. When I described this procedure on a sci.psychology newsgroup, one of the respondants, who happened to have a Jewish/Yiddish-sounding name, pointed out that this was a very traditional Nazi tactic. Sparaig 10:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. Regarding changing the subheading to "===German Court Rebukes Report on Adverse Effects of Transcendental Meditation===", where did we discuss that? I must have been asleep. Actually, the "rebuke" isn't the only thing that is mentioned in the subsection. I think that "The German study" is fine. Otherwise, to be NPOV, we'd have to introduce a balanced summary of the entire subsection into the heading, which would make it pretty long. Tanaats 21:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC) And did we agree to strip down the paragraph presenting the study? Tanaats 21:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the full text of the Denaro affidavit (its not even that, apparently, but something "equivlaent" according to Denaro, as found in the TM-EX archives. These are in turn, financed by the rival meditation gruop mentioned as being a "breakaway" TM group). Note point 23: "In his more subtle and very sophisticated way Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his charlatanism is [sic] a far more destructive and dangerous cult leader than Jim Jones who induced more than 900 people to commit suicide in Guyana." [5] Any mention of Denaro should quote this sentence in order to provide balance (as in an example of his extreme bias). Sparaig 22:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete the paragraph in which Dennis Roark makes claims about the research. These statements are rebutted by David Orme-Johnson, but rather than rebut, I feel this should be deleted because it doesn't meet the guidelines for reliable sources.
The Wikipedia pillars wp:5 say that it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics: "[NPOV] means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." In addition, WP:RS says that primary sources, such as this letter from Roark to Pat Ryan, must be published by a reliable source and should be corroborated by secondary sources: "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research. Wikipedia articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources."
Behind the TM Facade isn't a reliable source for a primary document. For example, it mentions the problematic German study without noting that a German court rebuked it. In addition, it's a critic site, which WP:RS says should be treated with caution [6]. And the claims by Roark need to be corroborated by a secondary source, which WP:RS defines as "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources." TimidGuy 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Please reframe from any analzying my character. If you want to exchange intellectual blows with me, let's go to a chat room and we can say all sorts of things about each other.
I am interested in facts. The fact is, Orme says Roark claimed it. Put all sorts of spin on in, ignore the first sentence of WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth," change your mind about whether Orme is a reliable source or not once a week, but the fact of the matter is ORME SAYS ROARK SAID ______.
I trust that in your mind you believe the claim of fraud requires collaberation. Just because you believe it, is it so?
Do I NEED to "address the fact that you took it out of context"? Is there a wikipedia policy which says you cannot use a citation if one user claims it is "out of context?"
Did I take it out of context, or are you just thinking that is what I did? Does David Orme somehow NOT claim that Roark made these allegations? Does Orme say, Roark claimed XYZ or not? It is really a simple question! Sethie 17:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the Markovsky quote based on the proposed guideline that I cited earlier: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples. Note that WP:RS directs editors to this supporting page. Also, note that his comment is related to research on the TM-Sidhi program and the Maharishi Effect, not on Transcendental Meditation. TimidGuy 12:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
You acknowledge it in word once... just not in deed! Then you say, "If Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples is not meant to be a guideline for editors" Which implies you think it is a meant to be a guideline. No wait, you don't imply that, you ummmmm, SAY IT!
Would a police officer write someone a ticket for breaking a law that had not passed yet? Yet you are using a proposal as justification for actions now. Sethie 17:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for the discussion on whether to include the quote from Dennis Roark alleging that research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. I want to start a new thread in which we focus on the crucial issue regarding this quote: that it's a primary source and that there are constraints on using primary sources in Wikipedia. In this case, Wikipedia says that a letlter (such as this letter from Dennis Roark to Pat Ryan) is a primary source.
WP:RS says ""Wikipedia articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic." So the question is, what is meant by the limitation that a primary source can be used only to make a descriptive point about a topic? An admin who contributes to the guidelines gave this explanation: 'If you simply want to establish that someone said something in a letter, then the letter is a good source for that fact, although it might or might not be relevant, depending who wrote the letter, whether the letter has been quoted in this connection, etc. If you want to establish the truth of the fact itself, the fact that someone said it in a letter doesn't do it."
Further, another admin made the point that "The example given is exactly what you can't use. As described, its use is to illustrate a contentious point. Applying our policies it is original research using an unreliable source." And "What is needed is third party publication with some measure of peer review. If all that was involved was just a noncontroversial fact, its use might be OK, but alleged fraud is controversial by nature. "
So as I understand it, an allegation of fraud is a contentious point that needs solid evidence. Simply quoting a primary source isn't sufficient evidence to say the research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. A corroborating reliable secondary source is required. And I believe that the guidelines suggest that it's not appropriate to include this quote from Roark.
(By the way, I'm not presenting these quotes from admins as judgment -- that can only take place in the context of the dispute procedures. I am presenting them as a way of helping the discussion along.) TimidGuy 13:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I had been looking at the guideline WP:RS but found a more clearly stated policy on the WP:OR page: "An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims." The accuracy of Roark's claim is not easily verifiable by any reasonable person; plus, it violates the policy because it makes the evalautive claim of fraud." TimidGuy 12:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
So I'm confused. Tanaats 16:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I'm going to go ahead and delete this. No one has addressed the point I raise about the inappropriate use of a primary source and that makes a conntroversial claim that's not corroborated. And my reservation about this particular use of a primary source has been confirmed by experienced Admins who've also served on the Arbitration Board. TimidGuy 12:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Sethie. Earlier we achieved consensus [8]on moving the JAMA material to the article on Maharishi Vedic Medicine, since it has to do with marketing of herbal products. Three editors thought it was a good idea and no one objected. Now you've put it back in the TM article, without discussion, without consensus. Also, you incorrectly characterized the original JAMA article by Chopra et al. It wasn't a research study. The title was "Letter from New Delhi." TimidGuy 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
And of course you left out the part about the $194 million lawsuit against JAMA. TimidGuy 16:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see User_talk:Tanaats#Article splits. Do we want to agree to do what Dreadlocke suggests? Tanaats 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. Can we revisit this? I've been on a number of other articles and what Dreadlocke suggests is indeed the defacto standard. I think that our articles would look much better by doing the same. Thanks. Tanaats 03:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The section is about Tax-fraud. Orme does not address that, he addresses the issue that Denaro is claiming the research is flawed, which is not claimed in that section. Sethie 16:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
This article includes two controversial claims originating from a 1986 affidavit by Anthony Denaro, who was employed by Maharishi International University for approximately 10 months 1975-76. The source given in the Transcendental Meditatiion article for these particular quotes is Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary. One quote alleges that Maharishi University of Management is characterized by, among other things, nervous breakdowns, crime, and suicide attempts. A second quote alleges tax fraud. I believe this material shouldn't be included in the article for several reasons.
1) These controversial claims from a primary source are presented in but not corroborated by The Skeptic's Dictionary. According the to the principle WP:5, it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics. The standard is reliable secondary sources: "In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources" ( WP:RS). The guideline WP:RS defines a secondary source as: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion." Carroll offers no informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of these claims found in the affidavit. He simply quotes the document.
2) The Skeptic's Dictionary web site cites a copy of the affidavit that's on a POV web site. That web site cites the court case. However, the document is not a part of the court record. As examination of the Document Entries List shows no such document. The courthouse where this trial was held is unable to provide this document. It is only available on POV web sites. I believe this violates WP:V.
3) Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary is an unreliable and biased source. It contains many errors and half truths in the article on Transcendental Meditation. One that has been amply documented already on this Talk page is his citation of the German "study." Another that's been discussed here is his reference to a study by Bob Rabinoff that doesn't exist.
Controversial claims made in a primary source such as Denaro's affidavit need solid support from authoritative sources. The affidavit and its quotation without corroboration in The Skeptic's Dictionary aren't the sort of substantial evidence necessary to the high quality of sourcing that Wikipedia aspires to. TimidGuy 18:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
And IMO the TM articles are just chock full of extraordinary claims for which we are relying on primary sources.
Tanaats 21:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Sethie. If you cite a book you absolutely must use a proper citation. Also, note that you linked to an illegal copy of the JAMA article.The guidelines disallow this [9]. TimidGuy 18:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!
Regarding your book citations -- since you didn't do it properly one might guess that you don't have the book in hand. In which case, WP:CITE says that you should cite your actual source: "It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." TimidGuy 12:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie is rapidly rewriting the article again. Please see the Wikipedia policy from WP:NPOV on undue weight [10]. "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." And "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. "
Look at the table of contents and the article. Approximately two-thirds of the article now constitutes criticism and controversy. I believe this violates NPOV. TimidGuy 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The TM movement has been involved in a number of scandals and controversies. I have provide about examples of these scandals and controversies, most of which meet wiki guidelines for inclusion.
You contend that these issues are non-notable or are given undue weight. Please show how this is true? Sethie 17:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
TimidGuy, in the sentence "For nearly eight years, professionals who practice Transcendental Meditation include Gary Kaplan, professor of neurology at New York University School of Medicine, Ramani Ayer, Chairman and CEO of The Hartford Financial Services Group in Hartford, Connecticut, Bob Brown, Former Division President, Ziff-Davis Inc., and James Krag, M.D., Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association", why do you say "For nearly eight years"? It seems that most of those folks have been meditating much longer. And we could probably just start with "Professionals who practice..." anyway and let people see how long they've been practicing from the cite. Tanaats 21:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I reverted a bunch of sweeping changes, I will discuss each one in it's own section. Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I mean I don't doubt those people practice TM and if they aren't famous enough to have a wiki article, why are we going to list them? I like your point that numerous proffessionals practice TM, why not just say CEO's, proffessors, etc? instead of listed a bunch of names that no one knows? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The book and page number are there. Because it is formated incorrectly, you want it gone? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ummm there are maybe 10 live discussions going on on this page- how about slowing down a bit? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Jama article makes it clear this was the 2nd such deception to Jama, and that the New England Journal of Medicine had suffered the same transgression. Why remove a cited fact? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the study by Otis. The guidelines are very clear that research must be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. It's not clear that the book by Shapiro and Walsh meets this guideline. From a description online, it appears that many of the papers collected in the book were indeed published in scientific journals, but others were not. In order for Otis to be considered a reliable source, you'd need to find out whether this paper was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and then cite that. I kind of doubt it was, becuase it doesn't follow the format of a scientifici paper. Though there's no way of knowing whether the version on the POV site that you link to accurately represents what was published. TimidGuy 02:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been harping a bit on the need for reliable secondary sources. I wanted to point out that the JAMA article is an excellent example of a reliable secondary source (even though it was sued for libel). The article claims deception related to publicity surrounding Ayuyr-Veda products and services and then gives a number of examples. This is the kind of corroboration and analysis that a reliable secondary source should use. Plus, JAMA is a reputable publication. Its bias is toward allopathic medicine, of course, but it's undeniably one of the top medical journals. TimidGuy 02:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
use these words as argument for or against religion. There are those who believe in God, who never went to a religious institution /Church . Emily Dickinson comes to mind. Spirituality and religion must must be defined before proof for either can be presented.
My comments about clarification of the terms religion and spirituality, bring me back to my past feeble efforts to clarify this article or deal with this idea. Many of these words must be defined before we try to present an argument in any direction. And is an encyclopedia a place to try to make a point or present an argument. How can we just present straight forward information? I will probably go ahead and try again with this article so just to let all know.( 63.162.81.220 04:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC))
Wikipedia’s central principle of neutrality was violated twice in the last sentence of the Introduction. Readers knowledgeable about the workings of science know that enthusiasts and detractors exist for every field, as is excellently illustrated in a widely read and respected treatise by Kuhn, the first edition of which appeared in the 1960s (Thomas S. Kuhn: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 3rd edition. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1996). As a result, most readers with a scientific background would have guessed that the clause concerning the validity of the research was placed there by an editor wishing, perhaps unconsciously, to discredit the Transcendental Meditation technique. Unfortunately, readers who were less scientifically aware, who may not have known that all fields have adherents and critics, may have thought the statement concerning the validity of the research was a prevalent or “official” view simply because it appeared in print in Wikipedia. Thus, the apparent wish of the aforementioned editor was achieved.
The second violation of neutrality was in the last phrase of the old last sentence. Because “the TM organization” appeared in only one other place in the Introduction, without any mention of its nature or purpose, to state in the last sentence that the nature of the organization has been questioned is another biased statement. Because of the misleading context created by the first part of the sentence, it was far from neutral. This problem could have been dealt with in many ways, but the simplest and perhaps most justifiable was simply to omit any mention of “the TM organization” in the Introduction. The reasoning here is that, if “TM organization” is mentioned without a definition of its nature and purpose, then the last phrase could have no meaning for the reader not already familiar with the Transcendental Meditation program except to discredit it. Second, it is misleading and uninformed to speak of a single “TM organization” because instruction in the technique has evolved through many organizations. There is not one “TM organization.” Third, organizations of all types are like the different fields of science in that most people know organizations have both supporters and critics just as fields of science do. Again, the only reason for highlighting such an obvious fact is that someone wishes to discredit the organization, a clear display of negative bias.
The fact these biased entries were allowed to stand, in violation of the neutrality principle, is no doubt part of what has prevented this article from becoming a Featured Article. These new changes represent a step in the direction of removing that block, at least for the Introduction. Even in the Introduction, though, and in all other parts of the article, attaining further balance will require many more edits of biased entries on both sides of the issue. I look forward to the help of all editors to make it an ideal Wikipedia Featured Article. ChemistryProf 04:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you guys push hard and fast on this site. I have been trying to get my responses in for the last hour, but keep getting thwarted by edit conflict messages because the discussion has changed again. Here are the comments I have been trying to insert.
Ouch! Thanks, Tanaats for biting so quickly. A fisherman's delight. In the five minutes between the time it took me to make the two carefully thought out changes in the Intro and posting my reasons for doing so, you had deftly removed them. Is this any way to treat a newcomer? So here are the changes I suggest will be a significant step toward neutrality. Replace the last sentence of the Intro with the following: "This research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor. [1]" Actually the ref cited makes a thorough case that any active field of research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, not just the "leading-edge" fields. I am not attached to the modifier "leading-edge," but I can cite reputable published sources not connected with any TM organization who have reached that conclusion. How do we find a consensus on this? My vote is to leave out the modifier for simplicity's sake. Let's hear from others on this.
Also, as per the reasons outlined in my talk of a few minutes ago, it would be appropriate to remove the phrase "according to the TM organization" in the first paragraph of the Intro. Another reason for that is that a source is already included at the end of the sentence containing this phrase, so it is unnecessarily repetitive to insert the phrase, even if it were correct. It only complicates the sourcing, and it does imply a bias on the part of the editor because there are published research papers that support this statement independent of the organization. These sorts of questions can be explored in the body of the article, but the Introduction is supposed to be short.
Hello, Sethie. Thank you for joining the discussion. Yes, I appreciate that you and other editors have worked long and hard on the Introduction, but it does, in fact, remain far from neutral. For example, the main point I am addressing now concerning the final sentence of the Intro is that all research fields have enthusiasts and detractors, even extreme ones. This is well known by scientists in any field. To say that threatens the validity of the reseach only shows a lack of understanding of research and how it evolves. Any scientist reading that last sentence knows immediately that the author of the statement wishes to discredit the research, whether he is aware of that wish or not. To maintain the neutrality of this and any other article, such statements must be avoided.
As for the goal of creating a Featured Article, my reading of the guidelines and the statements of the founder of Wikipedia seem to make it clear that each article needs to strive for that. Of course not all articles will succeed at it, but why not make this one one of those that do? It's not really that difficult. We just follow the guidelines. ChemistryProf 06:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Tanaats. I appreciate that WP has its own culture and some unique methods. Your help in working through those is valuable, and could be even more so if you would spend just a little more time explaining the critical ones. For example, concerning your first point, I cannot, for the life of me, see how my suggested sentence constitutes OR. I believe we can all agree on the first part of the sentence: “This research has its enthusiasts and its detractors,...” It is amply illustrated in the remainder of the article, and for that reason appears not to need a cited source to back it up. The second part of the sentence: “as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor” or alternatively “as does any scientific endeavor” is not OR but comes from the source cited at the end of the sentence, a highly reputable, published source, which clearly meets the WP:CITE guidelines for sources. Kuhn spends hundreds of pages illustrating and explaining how all scientific endeavor unfolds at the hands of enthusiasts, detractors, and others that fall somewhere in the middle. He spends time examining situations that exist at the leading edge of a field, but his illustrations and arguments also make a powerful case that all scientific research proceeds in this manner, through individuals with many different relationships to the core ideas—proponent, antagonist, and more neutral. His theme is that it is a common property of science to evolve in this way. To me this fits the CITE and the OR guidelines to a T. Please carefully explain to me how you see it doing something different.
On your second point, I disagree that metaphysical speculation is the only choice here. Direct personal experience is another alternative. Citing a source describing the direct personal experience seems preferable to me over the present citation, and I am working on a draft of a new sentence that would do just that. The citations presently used are good as long as the reader is made to understand that some of them come from individuals or non-profit education institutions that are more on the enthusiast side of the spectrum. That is one more reason it is important to insert my suggested sentence. The Introduction is supposed to be a lead-in to the whole article. This new sentence would prepare the reader to expect to see material in the article that represents the full spectrum—from enthusiastic supporter to adamant detractor.
I want you to know that we probably agree on many more things than we disagree on concerning the Introduction. It can pass for a while as written, but I find problems with several other parts of it and intend to submit for discussion a more global rewrite that I think you and the other editors might like better than the current one. As you suggest, I will take my time and not rush this into the discussion tomorrow, but expect to see it sometime in the next week or so. I have seen also that Sethie has similar intentions. Maybe that will make it go even more smoothly. He/she certainly responded cooperatively to one of my suggestions.
Finally, I want to comment on why I feel bold about contributing and editing. It’s not just because I am a professor. The reason I already feel comfortable with key aspects of the WP contribution process is that it is practically identical to the process of publishing in and reviewing papers for peer reviewed scientific journals, which I have been doing for more than 35 years. This may be a long discourse, but I hope you will read it carefully. If you have not published in scientific journals before, you will be struck by the similarities.
Publishing in peer reviewed journals involves the author(s) first writing up a paper in which each background statement is referenced to a previously published, appropriate source. The source is cited at the end of the statement and listed in a Reference list at the end of the paper. The article is then submitted to a journal editor who sends it to two or three peer reviewers or referees. These then offer their critical comments and suggestions, usually anonymously, on all parts of the article and send this back to the editor, who passes a copy back to the authors. The authors then respond in writing to each of the reviewers’ suggestions, describing any changes they may have made in the article and, in some cases, explaining why some of the reviewers’ suggestions may be incorrect. These responses then go back to the journal editor, and he/she either sends them on back to the reviewers for another round of comments and corrections or, in some cases, may decide that the responses are entirely adequate and accept the paper for publication. This latter result would be likely only if the reviewers found relatively few or minor things to comment on in the first place. Usually after one, two, or sometimes three iterations of this process, the paper is either accepted or rejected for publication in the journal. This whole process is conducted in an orderly, respectful manner, and has worked pretty well for 200 years or more.
The main differences in the WP approach seem to be the absence of an editor who oversees the whole process and the speed with which the exchanges take place. Also, journal publishing appears to be less consensual than the WP contribution process, which may be one of the stronger points in favor of the WP approach. One problem with the WP approach, though, is the potential for emotional involvement that may arise in part from the fast and furious pace at which comments fly back and forth. Perhaps if WP editors spent a little more time contemplating their input, it would be more constructive in the long run. I will strive to do that myself.
Again, thank you for taking me under your wing and leading me into the special WP culture and methods. I appreciate that and think we can all have more fun with this than appears to have been the case before. ChemistryProf 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Good. I’m glad both of you ( Tanaats and Sethie) responded on this point. It is a critical one. To fulfill the goal of creating a neutral ( NPOV) and verifiable ( Verifiability) article on Transcendental Meditation, the main editors must agree on their interpretation and use of at least the three central guidelines. When we have that consensual agreement, then things can move more quickly, and many arguments and reversions will be avoided.
My previous entry was focusing on OR, which, with NPOV and Verifiability, make up the three central guidelines. An entry of mine was removed when it supposedly did not adhere to the guidelines. To me, it seems to adhere closely. So to get by this impasse, we need to reach a consensus on what these guidelines mean and how to apply them.
First, I am trying to get totally clear on how you guys interpret and use OR. In responding to my question, you have given more clues, which I will attempt to restate. You will, of course, correct me if I wrongly represent your view. I will respond to Tanaats first because he was the first to level the charge of violation of OR. Here is his argument:
‘The part that I considered to be OR is "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor." You did give a citation. However, the phrase implies that it is a known fact that TM research is in fact "leading-edge". Whether or not TM research is leading-edge is completely a matter of individual judgement. Implying that it is a known fact is IMO OR.’ Quote from Tanaats 15:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I cannot find anything about fact anywhere in OR, nor can I find that word in either of the other two central guidelines. I did, however, find the word truth, a synonym for fact in my dictionary, in one of them ( Verifiability) as follows: “The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.” So, now I am doubting the correctness of Tanaats’ use of truth or fact as a criterion for OR.
In the particular phrase I used ("as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor") there is no citation for “leading-edge.” Rather the Kuhn citation I used was to back up the whole phrase. If other editors insist on having a verifiable source for the concept that research on the Transcendental Meditation technique is leading-edge, then I can provide that. (I mentioned earlier in our discussion that I know of a published source, a statement by someone known not to practice the technique or to be affiliated with any organization related to the technique, but I will need to dig around to find it again.) If this second citation is required for the sentence, then to make the sentence less awkward, it would need to be revised anyway. We will come back to that later. Right now, I am still trying to establish that I understand your reasoning and would like to hear more clarification of your usage, in this and other situations. As for your next statement, concerning the appropriateness of the qualifier "according to the TM organization" in another sentence of the Intro, I agree that the sentence needs a clearer attribution, either to a person or to one of the organizations. I am reworking that and will present it for discussion in a few days.
Now to the points made by Sethie: His first point in the discussion above is essentially the same as that of Tanaats, namely, that characterizing the research on Transcendental Meditation as “leading-edge” was OR. I said about all I have to say about that in the previous paragraph. His second and third points are as follows:
‘Also, YOU are making a a connection between Kuhn and TM, saying, "Yes, his theories apply here." (#2) Kuhn's work is a theory, yet you stated it as if it were so, as if it was a rock-solid fact. (#3) So I personally count three places where you, ChemistryP slipped yourself into the short phrase "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor."’ From Sethie 06:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Again, we have the word “fact,” which does not appear in OR, but its synonym “truth” does appear in Verifiability, as discussed above. Fact or truth is not something that is easy to establish, either in science or in law. We can only present evidence for or against truth or fact, and it seems to me that what the WP guidelines are asking us to do is simply to provide a “paper trail,” a published source for every statement we make, as is the custom in scientific articles and in most academic articles, for that matter.
In response to Sethie’s point # 3, yes, Kuhn’s work is absolutely a theory, a theory so sweeping that it is intended to apply to all areas of scientific research. In my reading of the guidelines, however, that does not matter. The important thing is that the cited source is reliable (see RS). Kuhn’s theory and book happen to be known and highly regarded by enough people, mostly scientists and philosophers of science, to now be in its 3rd edition. No one could argue it is not a reliable source.
So, I am having some pretty serious doubts about the manner in which both Tanaats and Sethie are using the guidelines. If possible, please respond to my points in a manner that will lead us to a greater consensus. Your time and effort to reach a level where we can really cooperate are important, and you might be surprised what we can produce when working together. I appreciate your caring about this issue and look forward to a successful outcome of our efforts. ChemistryProf 05:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick feedback. It takes us another step closer to cooperation. The way I read the guidelines, “truth versus opinion” is not the relevant question. (And it’s good it’s not, because who has the truth?) The only relevant question according to WP guidelines is whether the observation or opinion is backed up by a reliable source, and reliable source is pretty clearly defined (see WP:RS). The qualifier “according to…” is not necessary when a source is cited because the act of citing the source automatically attributes the foregoing statement or word to the source’s author or to another author mentioned in the source. This is standard convention in academic writing. Otherwise we would have to similarly qualify virtually every sentence and every clause or phrase we write. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, it’s not our business as editors to claim “truth” or “fact.” We, all of us editors, are making available to readers of WP the published observations and opinions of others on the subject. This is the way I read the guidelines, and if your reading is different, then show me explicitly the words that differ from that. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not Kuhn that says TM research is leading edge, but someone else in a source that will take me some time to relocate. When I have the source, I’ll put it into a new sentence and put it up for discussion. As claimed above, in scientific or most any other form of academic writing, when a citation is placed after a word or statement, it automatically means the cited source is either the sole source or one of many sources of that statement or idea. It is not necessary to verbally qualify each sentence or clause. This would be too cumbersome. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I think we are inching closer to a take-off point that will free us all of many cramping concerns and will lead this article to take on the balanced, neutral status we wish for.
ChemistryProf
07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie 09:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi ChemProf,
Regarding "This is standard convention in academic writing"... Is this the convention even when the cited source is making a disputable statement? It's not as though we're citing someone who says that the earth is round.
Regarding "it’s not our business as editors to claim "truth" or "fact"... Yes, that's why we don't introduce a phrase that implies it is "truth" or "fact" that TM research is leading edge.
I think that it will be very fruitful to discuss this when you've located the actual cite. Tanaats 15:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Great! I’m glad all the frequent editors are chipping in. We’re making some good points and good progress towards a consensus here. I’ll start my observations and responses to these points now, but if I do not get finished tonight, then I’ll continue tomorrow. We’re getting to the real heart of the matter here.
In response to the first two points of Sethie from Jan 6, 07, yes, I think we’re all in tune with the need for citations. This point has been established in the last few exchanges. In your point 2, however, there appears to be a slight but important difference between the statement of your understanding of OR and in the way I read the guidelines. The key statement from the guidelines reads as follows: “the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.” Your statement reads: "Any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article." It’s the last part of this sentence that seems different from the WP:OR guideline. “Directly related to the topic of the article” to me means that there is an obvious connection, not that the exact topic of the article (Transcendental Meditation, in this case) has to be mentioned in the reference cited, which you seemed to be indicating in your paraphrase. But maybe you did not intend the latter to be the meaning, in which case, we are in agreement here. If you did mean that you interpret it the latter way, then how do we determine which is correct? Possibly we can read a lot of other WP articles and see how others have interpreted this. Personally, I think the latter interpretation would be so restrictive that it would be difficult to put together a cogent article on any topic. Can we hear input from others and try to get on the same wavelength here?
Concerning the example of the Kuhn citation, I remind you that this is just an example for us to play with. It may not belong in the Intro any longer. If you remember, it was introduced as an alternative to a sentence that was later eliminated by Sethie and Tanaats. Now the context is different, and so the consideration is different. In any case, just to refresh our memory of Kuhn, his book has to do with the progression of active investigation in any scientific field. He draws on examples from many areas of science to illustrate his points, but the only key requirement is that the field is actively progressing. He illustrates how any such field has members who are enthusiastic about a particular area or direction of study, and detractors who find that same area or direction to be suspect. Ultimately, it turns out that the two types of researchers disagree because their views of the field or even their world views are substantially at odds with each other. How these differences work themselves out over time defines much about the progress of that field of science. At two points in history, usually more than a generation apart, the dominant views underlying the research may become entirely different, constituting a “revolution.” During this process, multiple controversies arise and play themselves out. Historians of science now appear to recognize that Kuhn’s work is a far more accurate picture of the progression of scientific discovery than the earlier concept that science progressed through the orderly accumulation of discoveries of different scientists over a period of time.
Anyway, getting back to our example sentence, if we keep the modifier “leading-edge” (which I earlier indicated is not necessary to the point being made) we may need another reference stating that research on the Transcendental Meditation technique fits this description. I indicated that such a reference has been in my hands some years ago, but it may take a while to relocate it. I remember very well that the point was made by Professor David Edwards, a social scientist at the University of Texas, in reference to the research on the societal effects of the practice of the TM and TM-Sidhi techniques by a sizeable group. I am still searching for the reference, but we can go on with our critical discussion of the guidelines without it.
I agree with Sethie that it’s important we turn some attention on the NPOV guidelines, especially: "representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias." I had planned to examine those next, in relation to our example and beyond. This is great. We’ll pick up here tomorrow. ChemistryProf 06:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting me on that one, Sethie. I mistook your statement for a paraphrase of the earlier statement in OR about “direct relation to the topic.” The sub-section of OR that you quote, however, appears to give approval to the sentence I proposed. One of the points about which entries are not allowed, namely, this one: “It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position” does appear to allow introduction of an argument, so long as it has a reputable source and does not reflect a new interpretation by the editor. The argument of Kuhn that I attempted to introduce was not of my own making. Kuhn says that scientific investigation proceeds through a process that involves various controversies between those who are enthusiastic about certain directions, results etc. and those who attempt to detract from those directions or results. Scientific research on the Transcendental Meditation technique is clearly one example of a field of scientific research. No one can deny that. Thus, while Kuhn does not mention this field of research in particular, his work is nevertheless directly related to the TM research, and, therefore, citing his work seems to satisfy the requirement for RS in this case.
Your point, Sethie, about “leading-edge” (which is really a separate point, since I indicated before that this term could be dropped for simplicity’s sake), may be right, but I cannot tell until I retrieve the paper I read some years ago and go through it again. The paper as a whole was emphasizing the Maharishi Effect, but Edwards may have alluded to the whole body of research on the technique at some point in the paper. We’ll have to revisit this topic when I relocate the source. And in response to the comment by Tanaats, yes, I agree that given the current context in the Intro, the sentence would fit better in the Research section. ChemistryProf 07:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I cannot agree with your statement/interpretation of OR in this case. In the first paragraph of yesterday’s entry in this discussion, I spelled out in detail that the source is Kuhn because his analysis is intended to apply to ALL active fields of research. This is not something I have stretched to connect with Transcendental Meditation research, but something that is directly connected with research of any kind. Moreover, this same first paragraph from yesterday answers (and was intended to answer) the earlier question from Sethie about ALL scientific research. The only scientific research areas Kuhn’s analysis might not apply to are those that are “dead,” that is, they are no longer active, or those areas that do not challenge anyone’s paradigm in the field. Neither of these fit the research on Transcendental Meditation. So, the Kuhn citation is the appropriate RS for the sentence, assuming we remove the term “leading-edge,” which I said long ago was not necessary and could be dropped. Because the sentence has a valid RS, there is no OR. I like your humorous allusion to pre-emptive strikes, but that was not my point or my direction. Quoting OR, “Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources…”
I am disappointed that no one responded to the important question I brought up on the NPOV guidelines, especially the question about proportionality. This is absolutely critical to our reaching a consensus on using the guidelines. I know the point is long, but the most important things cannot be dealt with effectively in “word bites.” We need some thoughtful input here. Please respond. ChemistryProf 06:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Pouncingtiger, please discuss with us before making any more massive deletions. Tanaats 07:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, as noted by others, I am a newbie and was not aware that this forum existed. It wasn't intentional vandalism. This is a completely different form of writing/maintaining online content than what I am used to. All content that I deleted was copied from my side and saved because I was going to start researching some of the claims and add any additional information that I thought would be appropriate and/or helpful. But I see that someone else also keeps a current record of content and has already undone "the damage". Pouncingtiger
I was just looking at the archives and got a real feeling of deja vous. Many of the topics we've debated in the past two months have already been covered. For example [16] The problems with the German study, the Otis study, etc. It's a bit dispiriting to see that we've simply been covering the same ground. And to realize that an editor simply resurrected material that had been discussed earlier, and deleted. Here I am starting the process of discussing Otis and noting that it's not in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, etc. and then finding that this has already been discussed in great detail and that there are other problems surrounding it. Sort of depressing. TimidGuy 17:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Roark, Denaro, the Bhagavad Gita. TimidGuy 18:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
At User:Sethie's request, I've reviewed this article and the debate on it. I will not comment on the debate, which is lengthly, but I must agree that the article is unbalanced: the majority of it reads like an advertisement. This would be fixed to a significant extent by removing a lot of material: we don't need the details of the technique. More prominent discussion of the controversial and pseudoscientific aspects of TM is also needed. There is a very critical review here: [19], which provides references for various notable errors made by TM. Michaelbusch 17:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I must note that I strongly disagree that the article reads like an advertisement, and that it is unbalanced toward a pro-TM stance. The entry does indeed contain a great amount of controversial material, and in my mind it contains negative opinions that are made to seem (to the unknowledgeable reader) to represent a large number of people, while the majority of meditators disagree with those viewpoints, or have had very different experiences with practice of the TM technique. The challenge of Wikipedia, of course, is to find valid sources that state both sides of the picture, and ideally represent them in a realistic, accurate proportion. A number of editors have conscientiously put in time to reword a phrase, add something here or there, to restore the delicate balance (oh, the power of a single word...). Skepdic.com is cited and therefore accessible to the reader - but to put even more attention to its narrowly accepted viewpoints would certainly be a flagrant distortion of the subject, and throw this entry even further from becoming the "good" Wiki article that the guidelines are striving for. Purple Iris 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed some of the material from the intro. There are two separate problems with the article, in my opinion. One is the representation of TM, the other is the style of the article. Given that there is considerable debate on the first, I have restricted myself to the second. Material such as 'TM ... is a technique practiced is a mental technique practiced for twenty minutes twice a day while one sits with the eyes closed. A distinguishing feature of this meditation program is its lack of effort, as contrasted with techniques involving concentration, or those involving contemplation or active thinking' read like advertising, and are largely irrelevant at best and violate Wikipedia is not a soapbox at worst.
There are still severe style problems with the article, aside from the content. Michaelbusch 01:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I know that you are trying to help, but I'm actually not comfortable with the idea that you're going to come in and make large edits without discussing it first. Tanaats 02:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I really think you should stop. Now you are deleting well sourced material because you don't happen to agree with it. It's going to be a lot of work undoing all of this. Tanaats 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I only have one revert left without violating 3RR. Carry on and I'll just wait to do one big revert tomorrow. Keep deleting well sourced material and I'll report you for vandalism. Your input is most welcome but having you take over unilaterally is not, at least not as far as I'm concerned. Tanaats 02:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tanaats that removing well sourced stuff isn't helpful Michael, and I do think you have a point about the effortless part. Maybe there is some middle ground. I will play with the wording some, let me know what you think.
Sethie
02:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoa there Nelly!(Michael) I am reminded that in writing an article on TM , we are reporting what the organization says about itself. If the TM Organization describes its techniques as effortless than thats what we write . I can't go in a decide I don't like that and change the meaning or word. It may read like a soapbox speech, to someone but if thats what they say about themselves thats what we say.They are the experts on their own material, and we are writing about them.The article is somewhat awkward but that can be remedied. I am not sure it has been a priority with all that has been going on.(
olive
03:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Michaelbush says these statements are "unverifiable by nature." In fact, EEG data and neural imaging have verified, for example, that Tibetan Buddhist meditation, mindfulness meditation, and the Transcendental Meditation technique are very different. Tibetan meditation is strenuous, with EEG readings in the 40 Hz range, or otherwise known as gamma waves. In addition, neural imaging shows that the brain is very active. In mindfulness meditation, the brain appears to be imbalanced, with considerable activity in the left front cortex -- the part of the brain associated with evaluating.
In contrast, EEG patterns during the Transcendental Meditation technique characteristically show global coherent alpha waves, which are correlated with the simplest form of awareness. This EEG pattern isn’t seen in other practices of meditation. Neural imaging of the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique shows that the front and back of the brain, the attentional system, are more awake and active than when one is just sitting with one’s eyes closed, while the thalamus, which is the gateway of experience, is less active. In other words, this indicates an experience of "restful alertness." The attentional system is alert, while the mental experience is inward rather than outward.
I agree that it is intuitively difficult concept for people to understand that the Transcendental Meditation technique is effortless. One would typically assume that it entails concentration, but the EEG and neural imaging make clear that the mind is in a restfully alert state, especially as compared to the other forms of meditation. And by the way, the characteristic EEG patterns are seen within two months of an individual’s first beginning the practice. TimidGuy 12:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Creating an archive is long overdue. I propose creating an archive through item #44.
One reason I want to do this is so that page isn't so unwieldy when we do an RfC. Are we agreed that we'll be doing RfCs on Denaro and Otis?
Regarding the fact that Otis wasn't published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, Sethie questions whether that's required in Wikipedia. Here's what WP:RS says: "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." TimidGuy 12:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Please keep in mind WP:5, which says that authoritative sources are especially important when the topic is controversial. In my opinion, you can't just say, well this is a study, but it's not really a scholarly source, so we'll treat it as a non-scholarly source, and this isn't really controversial issue, so we can just use whatever evidence we find, including a study that's not been published in an academic journal and hasn't been peer-reviewed. You probably know that researchers are desperate to get published in academic journals -- "publish or perish." If it wasn't published in such a journal, it was likely flawed. Otis's work had problems. David OJ's site describes the serious flaws in another study that he did.
On the other hand, the TM research has been published in top journals. Not one of the studies in the top medical journals mentions adverse effects. Otis's findings are atypical, which sends up a red flag. Here's a quote from the New York Times from the principal investigator for one of the most recent studies in which she says there are no side effects (and by the way, she doesn't practice TM):
"The good thing about meditation is that it has a very nice quality-of-life component," said the senior author of the study, Dr. C. Noel Bairey Merz, professor of medicine at the University of California , at Los Angeles. "There's no ongoing financial cost, no side effects and a lot of data to demonstrate that it has a beneficial effect." [20]
This study was published by the American Medical Association.
Peer review is the standard -- especially for such controversial claims. Once I've worked on the section on TM research some more (so that people can see the quality of the peer-reviewed research on TM), then we begin dispute procedures. It'll be great to get feedback. Maybe you're right. But my reading of the guidelines says that if it's a study, it needs to be peer reviewed. TimidGuy 21:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I've mentioned a number of times that one goal I have is to rework the section on research so that it better represents the more recent research, espcially the NIH-funded research that has appeared in the past 10 years in peer-reviewed medical journals. To that end, I've added subheads as a first step in rewriting that section. TimidGuy 15:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
You seem to have deleted part of the Talk page. Can you figure out how to restore it? TimidGuy 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I recently got strongly corrected on another article by an extremely experienced editor and Admin. I had interleaved my resonses into the very long comments of another editor because I thought it would make the interaction clearer I was informed that this actually created confusion, and this it was considered bad etiquette in WP.
I see his point now. The main problem IMO is that we end up with a lot of discussion fragments that don't have a signature, making the interaction very hard to follow.
I propose that we observe this point of etiquette in the future. It is a bit more work composing replies, but I think that is much more clarity in the long run.
What do you all think? Tanaats 16:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello 151.202.185.21... Please hang a "fact" tag on unsourced statements if you want to challenge the statement. That gives editors a chance to find a cite. Thanks. Tanaats 16:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like you're new to Wikipedia. So... The way to point out that a statement is unsourced is to add "{{fact}}" immediately after the statement that you want to challenge. Tanaats 16:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
very strange... the below was a new thread - a new page.... and it has popped up on this page ..... sorry about that( olive 18:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC))
Thank you all for the feed- back on my points.
From bottom to top:
This isn't an argument its a request to reformat so that we can include more information easily...
"Only POV sites use it that way." Interestng claim Timidguy. Can you explain how that is true, in refference to these three non-pov sites (which BTW I posted above)
[23],
[24],
[25]? I also have a little book in front of me called "TM and Cult Mania" which reffers to TM not just as a technique, but well, as a cult. How is that a "POV site?" :)
Adherents.com lists it as a religion. [26], and lists the following refferences which call TM a religion or a sect: Occhiogrosso, Peter. The Joy of Sects: A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally published as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 765., Chryssides, George. Exploring New Religions. London, U.K.: Cassells (1999). [Original source of 50 thousand worldwide figure: web site: New Religious Movements (University of Virginia)], O'Brien, J. & M. Palmer. The State of Religion Atlas. Simon & Schuster: New York (1993); pg. 35., etc., etc., etc. I count 8 sources that call it such - excluding those that call it a cult. Sethie 18:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
With this many solid scholarly refferences, it is time to put into the intro the fact that outside the TM organization, Transcendental Mediation reffers to the technique and the movement. It will also settle the long-standing issue of what this article is about- the TM Movement, and in the mainstream society (and more importantly, in the scholarly press) what "Transcendental Meditation" means. Sethie 18:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
TG you believe "They are all religious or anti-cult." It is true that this is your opinion. Now please look at the actual sources and see if your opinion is in line with reality. Your stance is just flat our wrong here.
I took TimidGuy to mean that the "point of view" was from the religious or ant-cult point of view not that the sites themselves were religious or anti-cult .....does that make sense( olive 00:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC))
So, Yahoo is religious or anti cult? [28] So, Marian-Webster's encyclopedia of World Religions is religious or anit cult? [29] So, A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.) is religious or anit-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989) is religious or anti-cult? So, Adherents.com is religious or anti-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Univ. of V, New Religious movements website is religious or anti-cult? [30] So the article "Patterns of Diffusion and Religious Globalization: An Empirical Survey of New Religious Movement" is a religious article, or anit-cult?
These are all refference which call "Transcendental Meditation" a NRM, a movement, or a religion. And, ALL of them (please note I have not listed all of the ones I have found) are "religious or anti-cult?" Sethie 21:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I think your new intro is a good start Tanaats and we have 10+ refferences here that "Transcendental Mediation" reffers to the entire movement, not just Maharishi's teachings. Sethie 21:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
So, Yahoo is religious or anti cult? [31] So, Marian-Webster's encyclopedia of World Religions is religious or anit cult? [32] So, A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.) is religious or anit-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989) is religious or anti-cult? So, Adherents.com is religious or anti-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Univ. of V, New Religious movements website is religious or anti-cult? [33] So the article "Patterns of Diffusion and Religious Globalization: An Empirical Survey of New Religious Movement" is a religious article, or anit-cult?
Trademarks are generally respected by reference works. When an organization finds that its trademark has been incorrectly represented, they contact the reference work. We did this, for example, with the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, which had in incorrect definition and didn't recognized Transcendental Meditation as a trademarked term. They were very responsive and made the change. The lastest print edition is correct. We'll likely follow up with the reference works you mentioned.
The definition of a trademarked term isn't a matter of usage, but a matter of law. If a handful of specialized reference works misuse it, it doesn't, in my opinion, signify anything. And anyway lexicographers are generally agreed that the general usage is as a meditation technique. See, for example, the American Heritage Dictionary, the Random House Dictionary, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, which correctly recognizes it as a service mark. [34] TimidGuy 20:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the last sentence of Tanaats proposed new Intro, I do not see how this is necessary. In my 36 years of practicing the technique and attending large assemblies, meeting thousands of other practitioners and teachers, watching hundreds of hours of videotapes of Maharishi, I have never heard the term “Transcendental Meditation” used to refer to the whole body of information Maharishi has brought to the West. I have heard the term used as a modifier to identify things other than the technique, such as “movement,” “teacher,” “research,” but I have never heard “Transcendental Meditation knowledge” or “Transcendental Meditation teachings.” I have heard “Maharishi’s knowledge” or “Maharishi’s teachings” used sometimes to refer to the broader field of knowledge, but never have I heard the expression “Transcendental Meditation” alone used to signify the whole body of knowledge that Maharishi gives out. The fact that some reference sources use it that way does not convince me that we need to mention it in the Intro. I do not see how it is relevant to the topic of Transcendental Meditation. ChemistryProf 04:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
It’s pretty much impossible to have any discussion at all on this discussion page if experience and opinions are not allowed. As far as I can tell, the discussion page is all about the opinions and experiences of each of us. Am I wrong in this? ChemistryProf 05:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. How is the UNIVERSITY OF IOWA NEWS DIGEST a discussion group? Thanks. Tanaats 15:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Now I would like to kick off the discussion of the NPOV guidelines that I put off last night. I agree with Sethie that "representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias" deserves special attention. Of all guidelines, this is the one the creator of Wikipedia has placed at the top, above all others, and for good reason: it is undoubtedly the hardest rule with which to comply. It is clear from my short time on the present article that every editor involved has a point of view, either negative or positive, regarding the Transcendental Meditation technique. Sometimes the hardest thing of all is to monitor our own biases. We tend to be blind to those and keenly aware of any other person’s views, whether they are open or concealed, that may be different from ours. The sentence I objected to in the Intro that has now been removed was one such sentence. Although the sentence itself may have been technically correct, because of the context and the way it was stated, it jumped out at as a biased statement. It is true that a few scientists have published objections to one or more published research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique. It is also true that others have rebutted those criticisms in print. To mention the critical papers without also mentioning the rebuttals is biased and unfair. On the other hand, neither the critical papers nor their rebuttals form a very significant part of the research literature on the technique. The question then becomes, “When does an especially negative or positive point of view deserve mention in a WP article?” What I would like to argue here is that by “proportionate” representation, the guideline means that each article should represent the knowledge about that topic in a manner proportionate to the knowledge that is available on the topic. Thus, if 95% of the 200 or so peer reviewed research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique show statistically significant positive effects and 5% show no significant effect or a significant effect that is interpreted to be negative, then that point should show up somehow in the article. To choose a paper from the 5% to present in the article would not be proportionate representation. Proportionate representation would mean for every 20 of the positive articles presented, there should be one negative one to make it proportionate. There are other ways to deal with the requirement of proportionality, but I am throwing this out as one example and a possible way to deal with it. How about some feedback or other opinions on how to maintain proportionate representation?
Keep up the good work all of you editors involved in this article. We need this clarification and consensus to make more rapid progress and to make our lives easier! Oh, and I apologize for chopping up Tanaat’s paragraph two days ago without clearly identifying each part as his. ChemistryProf 07:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, if anyone wishes to move other people’s paragraphs around and start new threads, at least put something in the previous place to indicate that. Better yet, leave the paragraph where it was but leave a message saying it is duplicated in a new thread. Even then, it may be better to move the whole entry rather than one paragraph. In any case, I apologize for making the thread so long. I see the value in keeping them shorter. However, I don’t want to lose the heading of the previous thread. Perhaps we can duplicate the original heading (title) of the thread, with a word or two added to show its current direction.
Concerning the NPOV paragraph, I introduced those numbers of peer reviewed papers to elicit some discussion of the meaning of “proportional” in the NPOV guidelines. This was one way of interpreting the guideline. Thus, if 5% of the 200 articles have weak data or data that could be taken as negative in some way, that would represent a proportion of 1 article in 20. Another way of maintaining “proportionality” is to think of the full range of published opinions on the technique, since much of the content seems to revolve around those. I suspect, as is the case with other natural phenomena, the frequency of highly positive, neutral, and highly negative opinions follows a bell-shaped curve, with the vast majority making up the middle and the extremes being somewhere around 2.5% on each end of the curve. Does NPOV then mean that in representing the topic, we should devote 95% of the content to the “middle” opinions and 2.5% to each extreme? If so, then we have some work to do, as we all know. The middle is nowhere near fairly represented in the current version. ChemistryProf 04:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Good points, but I seem to remember comments in the discussion from various editors, even from Sethie, in which such judgments were made. As for “have work to do,” there also, I seem to recall opinions from Sethie and Tanaats that the article is imbalanced toward the positive. In fact, in Sethie’s statement just now “18+ positive studies,” who said they are positive? Isn’t that Sethie’s opinion?
In digging deep into NPOV, I’m just trying to find out what the possible metrics are for determining balance or proportion and how we can apply them fairly. If my formulae are unworkable, what ideas do others have? It is not clear to me that just because we can find positive and negative opinions in the published literature that we should have an equal mix of both. What if there are 1000 positive and 50 negative? Would it be balanced to present equal numbers of each? ChemistryProf 05:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
"On the other hand, neither the critical papers nor their rebuttals form a very significant part of the research literature on the technique. The question then becomes, “When does an especially negative or positive point of view deserve mention in a WP article?” What I would like to argue here is that by “proportionate” representation, the guideline means that each article should represent the knowledge about that topic in a manner proportionate to the knowledge that is available on the topic. Thus, if 95% of the 200 or so peer reviewed research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique show statistically significant positive effects and 5% show no significant effect or a significant effect that is interpreted to be negative, then that point should show up somehow in the article. To choose a paper from the 5% to present in the article would not be proportionate representation. Proportionate representation would mean for every 20 of the positive articles presented, there should be one negative one to make it proportionate. There are other ways to deal with the requirement of proportionality, but I am throwing this out as one example and a possible way to deal with it. How about some feedback or other opinions on how to maintain proportionate representation?"
So sure, he is talking about undue weight of THE STUDIES. That still does not explain why you think I should be responding to your the 2/3 thingie. Sethie 18:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
(Sethie and TimidGuy, FWIW I protested on another article when someone copied one of my comments to a new section and replied to it there. I eventually went to the Help page and asked about it. I was told by two different people there that this is called "refactoring", and that refactoring was perfectly legitimate if it adds clarity and reduces confusion. IMO Sethie's refactoring accomplished that. Your mileage may vary, of course.) Tanaats 18:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You have expressed both on this page and on your AMA request that you think I have control of the article, however is that true?
Via your input, the reportings of the German study were decreased. Via your input Roark was removed. You just removed the screening for pyschiatric issues which I won't touch. You say I revert every change, however, when you removed the "disucssion group" did I revert it? You have added numerous studies, have I erased them? You added the unified field/science stuff, did I erase that? You wanted "Hindu Text" not linked with the BG, is it? You rewrote the section on Canter and Ernst study, which I shortened, however is the essence of your contribution still there? I provided a CITED critique that TM research has not made it into the top education journals- you removed it, did I revert it back?
I provided a citation that the JAMA case was dismissed. You removed it, placed your own interpretation of what happened, WITHOUT A CITATION. And that is how the article reads, right now! You included a partial rebut of Denaro, did I remove that? You have included a rebuttal by Orme to the claims of TM being a cult. Have I erased that? While Orme's website is a primary source, have I challenged his reliability to report on a GERMAN Court Case?
You have asked me to stop adding material and I have.
I know it must be frustrating to have me around. Unlike me, you had pure and actual de facto control of this article for months.
Anyone can say anything. You can say I am in control. And is it true? Or, is it more true to say we have been working together for months, vigiriously debating things, and sometiems what you want happens, and sometimes what Sethie wants happens? Sethie 18:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, there is no claim by Denaro in the article which says the research is flawed. How is my removal of a rebutal to something that isn't in the article, a violation of NPOV? Which portion of the NPOV policy are you thinking I violated and how do you think it is harmony with NPOV to include a rebutal to a claim which is not in the article?
I believe the majority of wiki editors would actually argue that your desire to include it violates NPOV! Sethie 17:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Good additions on the research. Tanaats 22:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto!
And, I am wondering about the word choice "reduced death rates"..... I don't think the Maharishi has yet provided anything that can stop death! Sethie 22:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
With all the disucssion about Kuhn, I overlooked something. Chemistryprof, you removed a key idea from the intro. "The validity of that research has been questioned, AS WELL AS THE NATURE OF THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF."
I consider that a significant change. Please follow the guidelines at the top of this discussion page, specifically "and when submitting your edit, please include an accurate and concise description in the "Edit summary" field-box."
That sentence contained two ideas. You changed one with the Kuhn and flat out deleted the other. Leaving that deletion out of the summary field I do not consider accurate. If the sentence contained only one idea which you played with, I would consider that accurate.
Given the sheer amount of controvery surrounding the organization I believe having that idea expressed in the intro fits... even Lumiere conceeded that! However, I am unsure how to do it, I battled for nearly a month with her to construct an intro that worked for both of us. I am open to suggestions. Sethie 07:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Sethie 07:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not remember the exact words I put into the edit summary, but I tried to be complete in my description. I probably said "removed last sentence and replaced it with another," or something to that effect. My intentention was to put something more neutral than the sentence that was there. In my discussion, I included both parts of the sentence and the reasons they do not comply with NPOV. ChemistryProf 22:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Lately some external links have been added. I've recently been looking at the guideline WP:EL, which clearly constrains the use of external links. Many of our external links shouldn't be there. WP:EL says that external links should adhere to WP:RS. That would mean, for example, no personal sites and no POV sites. The guideline encourages brevity and says that there should be a good reason for adding an external link. Seems like most of our external links should be deleted. TimidGuy 16:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I see what you are saying but can you see what I am saying .... If I am writing about Maharishi Sthapatya Veda .... then that is what I am writing about, sorry that is relatively obtuse, but I guess what I am saying is , I am not in a position to add anything to this article one way or the other .... I am just reporting what this organization says about itself. I can't compare it to something else and I can't comment on it. All I can do is report the material ... thats all ... If I want to say something about whether that is verifiable or not ..... well that is another topic. I am not allowed an opinion here. I'm not writing about whether TMO teachings are facts or not I am just reporting.If I am reporting my dog's coat ... the dog I wish I had, I can report on its colour or length , but I can't say , I love this dog's coat or the dog should have a different coat .... I can only say this is the coat she has (I will get any point in about my imaginary dog, that I can:) ...)
I am citing "External Links", as TG had commented on links, and I agree that Wikipedia is not necessarily reliable. Frankly I would never send a student here to look for information. It could be inaccurate or accurate, equally. I am interested in the guidelines and how we interpret them, and administer them. I am commenting on a discussion page, and don't feel its appropriate for you to tell me I'm in for a hard time. This is a game, not life, and I am trying to understand the rules as are we all, if I understand the comments made. I am entitled to discuss as are you and the others, and I am allowed to make mistakes and to come up with insights as are we all.
I think that the linking an article for whatever reason and inside or outside Wikipedia is not a cut and dried situation, and find that Wikipedia itself seems contradictory on this. Its worth discussing.( olive 22:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC))
And actually no this isn't about SV, its about Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, and thats a an important distinction, I think. If I were writing about SV than I would have to go to a multitude of references. MSV might be one reference I'd look at,and maybe not. This is the so called "TM" site so I have to work within that boundary, and report on MSV as opposed to SV ( olive 22:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)).
yes thanks, I am very aware of these guidelines. I think there were two cases were i added a letter or replaced a missing word that had no impact on meaning in any way and entered these as minor edits. Are you expecting to be ambushed with an edit war....just kidding( olive 01:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC))
I feel like this article has many problems. Some of them we've discussed, such as Otis, Denaro, and undue weight, which are unresolved, as well as many that haven't yet been broached. At the risk of being crucified, I've created a sandbox page in which I list the issues. Ideally this could serve as a guide in helping us to prioritize our concerns and to proceed. And it serves as a cautionary note regarding adding new material, since so much of the material alreardy here has problems.
The list would be to list the points of contention, prioritize them, and then tackle them one by one. What do you think? TimidGuy 17:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, ComputerJoe. I hadn't thought of that possibility. I agree that that would be much better. My idea was that all of the discussion of the points would take place here, except for the discussion of priorities. And I imagined that we would all edit the list of priorities.
So far no one has said they like the idea. . . . No point in going ahead unless people feel it's useful. I see it as a vehicle of collaboration as we work to make this a better article. TimidGuy 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Tanaats. Appreciate your kind words. No problem doing everything here.
ComputerJoe, I'd been planning to create an archive for some time -- as you'll see in an earlier thread -- but hadn't gotten to it. I usually do it early in the morning when no one else is around. I'll do it tomorrow morning instead of beginning to follow up on the mediation, as I'd been planning. We do need to decide how much of it to archive. I'd proposed through #44 but I guess we can do more of it. Some of the threads may still be active. TimidGuy 22:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Thanks, Olive, Sethie, and Tanaats. I think that the aborted RfC brought out some good points that hadn't yet been raised.
Tanaats, I thought your Statement was well-crafted. Good job. Regarding your points -- How do you know that the court didn't get expert testimony from scientists? Also, even though it could be considered NPOV given that the court decision also appears in the article, I question whether it should appear at all, especially now that Sethie has added more detail. It gives an unfair impression. It's like saying, "Bob killed a kitten." Then a judge says, well he didn't really kill the kitten. But you're left wondering about Bob. And maybe it was just all made up in the first place.. Note that the court said that in over half the cases, the person interviewed had no direct knowledge. And only persons hostile to the TM organization were interviewed. And that the "studies were prepared by religious-ideological opponents of the TM movement." I think it creates an unfair impression and that it's not what Wikipedia has in mind as a reliable source in the context of a controversial issue.
Sethie, your point about sources might be valid if the second-party source had provided a better analysis and context, but in this case he doesn't. He refers to it as a "study" without any context at all, giving the reader the impression that it was published in a scientific journal. He gives no acknowledgment of the problems associated with the study. He just presents it as evidence. Here's how WP:RS defines secondary sources: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources." I don't think Carroll's presentation of the German study is "an informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration" of a primary source.
Frankly, when I read the guidelines I get a very different impression of what sources are considered acceptable than the impression I get from working on the TM article. I want to get a better frame of reference. One way to do that is via RfC. What can it hurt? You may be right. TimidGuy 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Littleolive, I'm going to change that back. It would be better to discuss something that has already proven to be a point of contention (as when Selphie reverted your prior attempt to introduce this dichotomy) on the Talk page first. Probably you're going to have quite a bit of trouble introducting this dichotomy without WP:OR and it should really be discussed first. Tanaats 22:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I am giving this another shot.... I really think that spirituality and religion as words have to be delineated to really begin to understand the complexity of whether TM is a religion or spiritual or both .... I am using Wikipedia itself to begin the article, and I think the material on Wikipeida is neither simplistic nor cut and dried on these two topics . There is argument for both slants but I think a definition of the word is important for the reader otherwise perhaps the material immediately takes a slant in one direction. By introducing the word spirituality the door opens for a deeper explanation/information than may be possible if we just approach this from the religion angle. Although I do have many opinions on this topic I was not implying one view or another, but just like language to be clear if possible. Although, I respect Sethie's suggestion that citing someone who believes TM is spiritual... well actually there are lots of people that do inside and outside the TM movement but seems to me better to go to a Wikipedia source that is more impartial maybe than an opinion . I think after all this is a complex philisophical point that needs lots of info.... Just a few thoughts on this ( olive 22:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC))\
Okey everyone, thanks, and points taken.However being of a somewhat stubborn nature and thinking this may be important... will see if I can make this work in an appropriate format .... thanks ( olive 04:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC))
Thank you for sharing your belief that calling th Bagavat Gita a "Hindu Scripture" is an expression of a POV. I don't deny that people call it an epic. Do you deny that it considered one of THE central texts of a religion called "Hinduism?" Sethie 14:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not made a change till we can sort this out, however, it is patent nonsense to link the BG to a page on the Vedas! Sethie 17:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sethie, I don't understand why you continue to add material to the article without first discussing. Why did you add the comment about not publishing in education journals? How is that a comment on the validity of the research? For example, maybe no articles have been submitted. Maybe no research has been done in this area. I feel like your hasty contributions damage the article. Look at the German study. We finally agreed that it wasn't good evidence for adverse effects. We should have discussed it first.
Again, please read the guideline on WP:Consensus. TimidGuy 20:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Much of our research has been in the area of health. And that's been published in absolutely the top medical journals. Why pick an area where we haven't done much empirical research and put in that as a criticism of the validity? TimidGuy 20:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Just so everyone understands what this study did:
The researchers were originally approached by people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed those people and asked for references to other people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed THOSE peopled and asked for more references to people who had complaints about TM and the TMO. This process continued until they couldn't find anyone else to interview. Out of what I estimate was a group of 100,000 people who had learned TM in Germany by that time, they found 10 current meditators and their spouses, 27 former meditators and 30 parents of meditators who were willing to talk privately to interviewers about issues they had with TM and the TMO. That's 37 out of 100,000 possible interviewees. And mind you, they ONLY interviewed people who had complaints. Of these 37 meditators and former meditators, 75% reported problems of some kind with TM. [2]. When I described this procedure on a sci.psychology newsgroup, one of the respondants, who happened to have a Jewish/Yiddish-sounding name, pointed out that this was a very traditional Nazi tactic. Sparaig 10:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. Regarding changing the subheading to "===German Court Rebukes Report on Adverse Effects of Transcendental Meditation===", where did we discuss that? I must have been asleep. Actually, the "rebuke" isn't the only thing that is mentioned in the subsection. I think that "The German study" is fine. Otherwise, to be NPOV, we'd have to introduce a balanced summary of the entire subsection into the heading, which would make it pretty long. Tanaats 21:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC) And did we agree to strip down the paragraph presenting the study? Tanaats 21:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the full text of the Denaro affidavit (its not even that, apparently, but something "equivlaent" according to Denaro, as found in the TM-EX archives. These are in turn, financed by the rival meditation gruop mentioned as being a "breakaway" TM group). Note point 23: "In his more subtle and very sophisticated way Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his charlatanism is [sic] a far more destructive and dangerous cult leader than Jim Jones who induced more than 900 people to commit suicide in Guyana." [5] Any mention of Denaro should quote this sentence in order to provide balance (as in an example of his extreme bias). Sparaig 22:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete the paragraph in which Dennis Roark makes claims about the research. These statements are rebutted by David Orme-Johnson, but rather than rebut, I feel this should be deleted because it doesn't meet the guidelines for reliable sources.
The Wikipedia pillars wp:5 say that it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics: "[NPOV] means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." In addition, WP:RS says that primary sources, such as this letter from Roark to Pat Ryan, must be published by a reliable source and should be corroborated by secondary sources: "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research. Wikipedia articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources."
Behind the TM Facade isn't a reliable source for a primary document. For example, it mentions the problematic German study without noting that a German court rebuked it. In addition, it's a critic site, which WP:RS says should be treated with caution [6]. And the claims by Roark need to be corroborated by a secondary source, which WP:RS defines as "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources." TimidGuy 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Please reframe from any analzying my character. If you want to exchange intellectual blows with me, let's go to a chat room and we can say all sorts of things about each other.
I am interested in facts. The fact is, Orme says Roark claimed it. Put all sorts of spin on in, ignore the first sentence of WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth," change your mind about whether Orme is a reliable source or not once a week, but the fact of the matter is ORME SAYS ROARK SAID ______.
I trust that in your mind you believe the claim of fraud requires collaberation. Just because you believe it, is it so?
Do I NEED to "address the fact that you took it out of context"? Is there a wikipedia policy which says you cannot use a citation if one user claims it is "out of context?"
Did I take it out of context, or are you just thinking that is what I did? Does David Orme somehow NOT claim that Roark made these allegations? Does Orme say, Roark claimed XYZ or not? It is really a simple question! Sethie 17:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the Markovsky quote based on the proposed guideline that I cited earlier: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples. Note that WP:RS directs editors to this supporting page. Also, note that his comment is related to research on the TM-Sidhi program and the Maharishi Effect, not on Transcendental Meditation. TimidGuy 12:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
You acknowledge it in word once... just not in deed! Then you say, "If Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples is not meant to be a guideline for editors" Which implies you think it is a meant to be a guideline. No wait, you don't imply that, you ummmmm, SAY IT!
Would a police officer write someone a ticket for breaking a law that had not passed yet? Yet you are using a proposal as justification for actions now. Sethie 17:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for the discussion on whether to include the quote from Dennis Roark alleging that research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. I want to start a new thread in which we focus on the crucial issue regarding this quote: that it's a primary source and that there are constraints on using primary sources in Wikipedia. In this case, Wikipedia says that a letlter (such as this letter from Dennis Roark to Pat Ryan) is a primary source.
WP:RS says ""Wikipedia articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic." So the question is, what is meant by the limitation that a primary source can be used only to make a descriptive point about a topic? An admin who contributes to the guidelines gave this explanation: 'If you simply want to establish that someone said something in a letter, then the letter is a good source for that fact, although it might or might not be relevant, depending who wrote the letter, whether the letter has been quoted in this connection, etc. If you want to establish the truth of the fact itself, the fact that someone said it in a letter doesn't do it."
Further, another admin made the point that "The example given is exactly what you can't use. As described, its use is to illustrate a contentious point. Applying our policies it is original research using an unreliable source." And "What is needed is third party publication with some measure of peer review. If all that was involved was just a noncontroversial fact, its use might be OK, but alleged fraud is controversial by nature. "
So as I understand it, an allegation of fraud is a contentious point that needs solid evidence. Simply quoting a primary source isn't sufficient evidence to say the research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. A corroborating reliable secondary source is required. And I believe that the guidelines suggest that it's not appropriate to include this quote from Roark.
(By the way, I'm not presenting these quotes from admins as judgment -- that can only take place in the context of the dispute procedures. I am presenting them as a way of helping the discussion along.) TimidGuy 13:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I had been looking at the guideline WP:RS but found a more clearly stated policy on the WP:OR page: "An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims." The accuracy of Roark's claim is not easily verifiable by any reasonable person; plus, it violates the policy because it makes the evalautive claim of fraud." TimidGuy 12:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
So I'm confused. Tanaats 16:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I'm going to go ahead and delete this. No one has addressed the point I raise about the inappropriate use of a primary source and that makes a conntroversial claim that's not corroborated. And my reservation about this particular use of a primary source has been confirmed by experienced Admins who've also served on the Arbitration Board. TimidGuy 12:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Sethie. Earlier we achieved consensus [8]on moving the JAMA material to the article on Maharishi Vedic Medicine, since it has to do with marketing of herbal products. Three editors thought it was a good idea and no one objected. Now you've put it back in the TM article, without discussion, without consensus. Also, you incorrectly characterized the original JAMA article by Chopra et al. It wasn't a research study. The title was "Letter from New Delhi." TimidGuy 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
And of course you left out the part about the $194 million lawsuit against JAMA. TimidGuy 16:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see User_talk:Tanaats#Article splits. Do we want to agree to do what Dreadlocke suggests? Tanaats 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. Can we revisit this? I've been on a number of other articles and what Dreadlocke suggests is indeed the defacto standard. I think that our articles would look much better by doing the same. Thanks. Tanaats 03:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The section is about Tax-fraud. Orme does not address that, he addresses the issue that Denaro is claiming the research is flawed, which is not claimed in that section. Sethie 16:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
This article includes two controversial claims originating from a 1986 affidavit by Anthony Denaro, who was employed by Maharishi International University for approximately 10 months 1975-76. The source given in the Transcendental Meditatiion article for these particular quotes is Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary. One quote alleges that Maharishi University of Management is characterized by, among other things, nervous breakdowns, crime, and suicide attempts. A second quote alleges tax fraud. I believe this material shouldn't be included in the article for several reasons.
1) These controversial claims from a primary source are presented in but not corroborated by The Skeptic's Dictionary. According the to the principle WP:5, it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics. The standard is reliable secondary sources: "In general, Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable secondary sources" ( WP:RS). The guideline WP:RS defines a secondary source as: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion." Carroll offers no informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of these claims found in the affidavit. He simply quotes the document.
2) The Skeptic's Dictionary web site cites a copy of the affidavit that's on a POV web site. That web site cites the court case. However, the document is not a part of the court record. As examination of the Document Entries List shows no such document. The courthouse where this trial was held is unable to provide this document. It is only available on POV web sites. I believe this violates WP:V.
3) Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary is an unreliable and biased source. It contains many errors and half truths in the article on Transcendental Meditation. One that has been amply documented already on this Talk page is his citation of the German "study." Another that's been discussed here is his reference to a study by Bob Rabinoff that doesn't exist.
Controversial claims made in a primary source such as Denaro's affidavit need solid support from authoritative sources. The affidavit and its quotation without corroboration in The Skeptic's Dictionary aren't the sort of substantial evidence necessary to the high quality of sourcing that Wikipedia aspires to. TimidGuy 18:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
And IMO the TM articles are just chock full of extraordinary claims for which we are relying on primary sources.
Tanaats 21:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Sethie. If you cite a book you absolutely must use a proper citation. Also, note that you linked to an illegal copy of the JAMA article.The guidelines disallow this [9]. TimidGuy 18:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!
Regarding your book citations -- since you didn't do it properly one might guess that you don't have the book in hand. In which case, WP:CITE says that you should cite your actual source: "It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." TimidGuy 12:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie is rapidly rewriting the article again. Please see the Wikipedia policy from WP:NPOV on undue weight [10]. "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." And "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. "
Look at the table of contents and the article. Approximately two-thirds of the article now constitutes criticism and controversy. I believe this violates NPOV. TimidGuy 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The TM movement has been involved in a number of scandals and controversies. I have provide about examples of these scandals and controversies, most of which meet wiki guidelines for inclusion.
You contend that these issues are non-notable or are given undue weight. Please show how this is true? Sethie 17:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
TimidGuy, in the sentence "For nearly eight years, professionals who practice Transcendental Meditation include Gary Kaplan, professor of neurology at New York University School of Medicine, Ramani Ayer, Chairman and CEO of The Hartford Financial Services Group in Hartford, Connecticut, Bob Brown, Former Division President, Ziff-Davis Inc., and James Krag, M.D., Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association", why do you say "For nearly eight years"? It seems that most of those folks have been meditating much longer. And we could probably just start with "Professionals who practice..." anyway and let people see how long they've been practicing from the cite. Tanaats 21:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I reverted a bunch of sweeping changes, I will discuss each one in it's own section. Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I mean I don't doubt those people practice TM and if they aren't famous enough to have a wiki article, why are we going to list them? I like your point that numerous proffessionals practice TM, why not just say CEO's, proffessors, etc? instead of listed a bunch of names that no one knows? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The book and page number are there. Because it is formated incorrectly, you want it gone? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ummm there are maybe 10 live discussions going on on this page- how about slowing down a bit? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Jama article makes it clear this was the 2nd such deception to Jama, and that the New England Journal of Medicine had suffered the same transgression. Why remove a cited fact? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the study by Otis. The guidelines are very clear that research must be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. It's not clear that the book by Shapiro and Walsh meets this guideline. From a description online, it appears that many of the papers collected in the book were indeed published in scientific journals, but others were not. In order for Otis to be considered a reliable source, you'd need to find out whether this paper was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and then cite that. I kind of doubt it was, becuase it doesn't follow the format of a scientifici paper. Though there's no way of knowing whether the version on the POV site that you link to accurately represents what was published. TimidGuy 02:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been harping a bit on the need for reliable secondary sources. I wanted to point out that the JAMA article is an excellent example of a reliable secondary source (even though it was sued for libel). The article claims deception related to publicity surrounding Ayuyr-Veda products and services and then gives a number of examples. This is the kind of corroboration and analysis that a reliable secondary source should use. Plus, JAMA is a reputable publication. Its bias is toward allopathic medicine, of course, but it's undeniably one of the top medical journals. TimidGuy 02:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
use these words as argument for or against religion. There are those who believe in God, who never went to a religious institution /Church . Emily Dickinson comes to mind. Spirituality and religion must must be defined before proof for either can be presented.
My comments about clarification of the terms religion and spirituality, bring me back to my past feeble efforts to clarify this article or deal with this idea. Many of these words must be defined before we try to present an argument in any direction. And is an encyclopedia a place to try to make a point or present an argument. How can we just present straight forward information? I will probably go ahead and try again with this article so just to let all know.( 63.162.81.220 04:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC))
Wikipedia’s central principle of neutrality was violated twice in the last sentence of the Introduction. Readers knowledgeable about the workings of science know that enthusiasts and detractors exist for every field, as is excellently illustrated in a widely read and respected treatise by Kuhn, the first edition of which appeared in the 1960s (Thomas S. Kuhn: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 3rd edition. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1996). As a result, most readers with a scientific background would have guessed that the clause concerning the validity of the research was placed there by an editor wishing, perhaps unconsciously, to discredit the Transcendental Meditation technique. Unfortunately, readers who were less scientifically aware, who may not have known that all fields have adherents and critics, may have thought the statement concerning the validity of the research was a prevalent or “official” view simply because it appeared in print in Wikipedia. Thus, the apparent wish of the aforementioned editor was achieved.
The second violation of neutrality was in the last phrase of the old last sentence. Because “the TM organization” appeared in only one other place in the Introduction, without any mention of its nature or purpose, to state in the last sentence that the nature of the organization has been questioned is another biased statement. Because of the misleading context created by the first part of the sentence, it was far from neutral. This problem could have been dealt with in many ways, but the simplest and perhaps most justifiable was simply to omit any mention of “the TM organization” in the Introduction. The reasoning here is that, if “TM organization” is mentioned without a definition of its nature and purpose, then the last phrase could have no meaning for the reader not already familiar with the Transcendental Meditation program except to discredit it. Second, it is misleading and uninformed to speak of a single “TM organization” because instruction in the technique has evolved through many organizations. There is not one “TM organization.” Third, organizations of all types are like the different fields of science in that most people know organizations have both supporters and critics just as fields of science do. Again, the only reason for highlighting such an obvious fact is that someone wishes to discredit the organization, a clear display of negative bias.
The fact these biased entries were allowed to stand, in violation of the neutrality principle, is no doubt part of what has prevented this article from becoming a Featured Article. These new changes represent a step in the direction of removing that block, at least for the Introduction. Even in the Introduction, though, and in all other parts of the article, attaining further balance will require many more edits of biased entries on both sides of the issue. I look forward to the help of all editors to make it an ideal Wikipedia Featured Article. ChemistryProf 04:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you guys push hard and fast on this site. I have been trying to get my responses in for the last hour, but keep getting thwarted by edit conflict messages because the discussion has changed again. Here are the comments I have been trying to insert.
Ouch! Thanks, Tanaats for biting so quickly. A fisherman's delight. In the five minutes between the time it took me to make the two carefully thought out changes in the Intro and posting my reasons for doing so, you had deftly removed them. Is this any way to treat a newcomer? So here are the changes I suggest will be a significant step toward neutrality. Replace the last sentence of the Intro with the following: "This research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor. [1]" Actually the ref cited makes a thorough case that any active field of research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, not just the "leading-edge" fields. I am not attached to the modifier "leading-edge," but I can cite reputable published sources not connected with any TM organization who have reached that conclusion. How do we find a consensus on this? My vote is to leave out the modifier for simplicity's sake. Let's hear from others on this.
Also, as per the reasons outlined in my talk of a few minutes ago, it would be appropriate to remove the phrase "according to the TM organization" in the first paragraph of the Intro. Another reason for that is that a source is already included at the end of the sentence containing this phrase, so it is unnecessarily repetitive to insert the phrase, even if it were correct. It only complicates the sourcing, and it does imply a bias on the part of the editor because there are published research papers that support this statement independent of the organization. These sorts of questions can be explored in the body of the article, but the Introduction is supposed to be short.
Hello, Sethie. Thank you for joining the discussion. Yes, I appreciate that you and other editors have worked long and hard on the Introduction, but it does, in fact, remain far from neutral. For example, the main point I am addressing now concerning the final sentence of the Intro is that all research fields have enthusiasts and detractors, even extreme ones. This is well known by scientists in any field. To say that threatens the validity of the reseach only shows a lack of understanding of research and how it evolves. Any scientist reading that last sentence knows immediately that the author of the statement wishes to discredit the research, whether he is aware of that wish or not. To maintain the neutrality of this and any other article, such statements must be avoided.
As for the goal of creating a Featured Article, my reading of the guidelines and the statements of the founder of Wikipedia seem to make it clear that each article needs to strive for that. Of course not all articles will succeed at it, but why not make this one one of those that do? It's not really that difficult. We just follow the guidelines. ChemistryProf 06:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Tanaats. I appreciate that WP has its own culture and some unique methods. Your help in working through those is valuable, and could be even more so if you would spend just a little more time explaining the critical ones. For example, concerning your first point, I cannot, for the life of me, see how my suggested sentence constitutes OR. I believe we can all agree on the first part of the sentence: “This research has its enthusiasts and its detractors,...” It is amply illustrated in the remainder of the article, and for that reason appears not to need a cited source to back it up. The second part of the sentence: “as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor” or alternatively “as does any scientific endeavor” is not OR but comes from the source cited at the end of the sentence, a highly reputable, published source, which clearly meets the WP:CITE guidelines for sources. Kuhn spends hundreds of pages illustrating and explaining how all scientific endeavor unfolds at the hands of enthusiasts, detractors, and others that fall somewhere in the middle. He spends time examining situations that exist at the leading edge of a field, but his illustrations and arguments also make a powerful case that all scientific research proceeds in this manner, through individuals with many different relationships to the core ideas—proponent, antagonist, and more neutral. His theme is that it is a common property of science to evolve in this way. To me this fits the CITE and the OR guidelines to a T. Please carefully explain to me how you see it doing something different.
On your second point, I disagree that metaphysical speculation is the only choice here. Direct personal experience is another alternative. Citing a source describing the direct personal experience seems preferable to me over the present citation, and I am working on a draft of a new sentence that would do just that. The citations presently used are good as long as the reader is made to understand that some of them come from individuals or non-profit education institutions that are more on the enthusiast side of the spectrum. That is one more reason it is important to insert my suggested sentence. The Introduction is supposed to be a lead-in to the whole article. This new sentence would prepare the reader to expect to see material in the article that represents the full spectrum—from enthusiastic supporter to adamant detractor.
I want you to know that we probably agree on many more things than we disagree on concerning the Introduction. It can pass for a while as written, but I find problems with several other parts of it and intend to submit for discussion a more global rewrite that I think you and the other editors might like better than the current one. As you suggest, I will take my time and not rush this into the discussion tomorrow, but expect to see it sometime in the next week or so. I have seen also that Sethie has similar intentions. Maybe that will make it go even more smoothly. He/she certainly responded cooperatively to one of my suggestions.
Finally, I want to comment on why I feel bold about contributing and editing. It’s not just because I am a professor. The reason I already feel comfortable with key aspects of the WP contribution process is that it is practically identical to the process of publishing in and reviewing papers for peer reviewed scientific journals, which I have been doing for more than 35 years. This may be a long discourse, but I hope you will read it carefully. If you have not published in scientific journals before, you will be struck by the similarities.
Publishing in peer reviewed journals involves the author(s) first writing up a paper in which each background statement is referenced to a previously published, appropriate source. The source is cited at the end of the statement and listed in a Reference list at the end of the paper. The article is then submitted to a journal editor who sends it to two or three peer reviewers or referees. These then offer their critical comments and suggestions, usually anonymously, on all parts of the article and send this back to the editor, who passes a copy back to the authors. The authors then respond in writing to each of the reviewers’ suggestions, describing any changes they may have made in the article and, in some cases, explaining why some of the reviewers’ suggestions may be incorrect. These responses then go back to the journal editor, and he/she either sends them on back to the reviewers for another round of comments and corrections or, in some cases, may decide that the responses are entirely adequate and accept the paper for publication. This latter result would be likely only if the reviewers found relatively few or minor things to comment on in the first place. Usually after one, two, or sometimes three iterations of this process, the paper is either accepted or rejected for publication in the journal. This whole process is conducted in an orderly, respectful manner, and has worked pretty well for 200 years or more.
The main differences in the WP approach seem to be the absence of an editor who oversees the whole process and the speed with which the exchanges take place. Also, journal publishing appears to be less consensual than the WP contribution process, which may be one of the stronger points in favor of the WP approach. One problem with the WP approach, though, is the potential for emotional involvement that may arise in part from the fast and furious pace at which comments fly back and forth. Perhaps if WP editors spent a little more time contemplating their input, it would be more constructive in the long run. I will strive to do that myself.
Again, thank you for taking me under your wing and leading me into the special WP culture and methods. I appreciate that and think we can all have more fun with this than appears to have been the case before. ChemistryProf 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Good. I’m glad both of you ( Tanaats and Sethie) responded on this point. It is a critical one. To fulfill the goal of creating a neutral ( NPOV) and verifiable ( Verifiability) article on Transcendental Meditation, the main editors must agree on their interpretation and use of at least the three central guidelines. When we have that consensual agreement, then things can move more quickly, and many arguments and reversions will be avoided.
My previous entry was focusing on OR, which, with NPOV and Verifiability, make up the three central guidelines. An entry of mine was removed when it supposedly did not adhere to the guidelines. To me, it seems to adhere closely. So to get by this impasse, we need to reach a consensus on what these guidelines mean and how to apply them.
First, I am trying to get totally clear on how you guys interpret and use OR. In responding to my question, you have given more clues, which I will attempt to restate. You will, of course, correct me if I wrongly represent your view. I will respond to Tanaats first because he was the first to level the charge of violation of OR. Here is his argument:
‘The part that I considered to be OR is "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor." You did give a citation. However, the phrase implies that it is a known fact that TM research is in fact "leading-edge". Whether or not TM research is leading-edge is completely a matter of individual judgement. Implying that it is a known fact is IMO OR.’ Quote from Tanaats 15:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I cannot find anything about fact anywhere in OR, nor can I find that word in either of the other two central guidelines. I did, however, find the word truth, a synonym for fact in my dictionary, in one of them ( Verifiability) as follows: “The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.” So, now I am doubting the correctness of Tanaats’ use of truth or fact as a criterion for OR.
In the particular phrase I used ("as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor") there is no citation for “leading-edge.” Rather the Kuhn citation I used was to back up the whole phrase. If other editors insist on having a verifiable source for the concept that research on the Transcendental Meditation technique is leading-edge, then I can provide that. (I mentioned earlier in our discussion that I know of a published source, a statement by someone known not to practice the technique or to be affiliated with any organization related to the technique, but I will need to dig around to find it again.) If this second citation is required for the sentence, then to make the sentence less awkward, it would need to be revised anyway. We will come back to that later. Right now, I am still trying to establish that I understand your reasoning and would like to hear more clarification of your usage, in this and other situations. As for your next statement, concerning the appropriateness of the qualifier "according to the TM organization" in another sentence of the Intro, I agree that the sentence needs a clearer attribution, either to a person or to one of the organizations. I am reworking that and will present it for discussion in a few days.
Now to the points made by Sethie: His first point in the discussion above is essentially the same as that of Tanaats, namely, that characterizing the research on Transcendental Meditation as “leading-edge” was OR. I said about all I have to say about that in the previous paragraph. His second and third points are as follows:
‘Also, YOU are making a a connection between Kuhn and TM, saying, "Yes, his theories apply here." (#2) Kuhn's work is a theory, yet you stated it as if it were so, as if it was a rock-solid fact. (#3) So I personally count three places where you, ChemistryP slipped yourself into the short phrase "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor."’ From Sethie 06:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Again, we have the word “fact,” which does not appear in OR, but its synonym “truth” does appear in Verifiability, as discussed above. Fact or truth is not something that is easy to establish, either in science or in law. We can only present evidence for or against truth or fact, and it seems to me that what the WP guidelines are asking us to do is simply to provide a “paper trail,” a published source for every statement we make, as is the custom in scientific articles and in most academic articles, for that matter.
In response to Sethie’s point # 3, yes, Kuhn’s work is absolutely a theory, a theory so sweeping that it is intended to apply to all areas of scientific research. In my reading of the guidelines, however, that does not matter. The important thing is that the cited source is reliable (see RS). Kuhn’s theory and book happen to be known and highly regarded by enough people, mostly scientists and philosophers of science, to now be in its 3rd edition. No one could argue it is not a reliable source.
So, I am having some pretty serious doubts about the manner in which both Tanaats and Sethie are using the guidelines. If possible, please respond to my points in a manner that will lead us to a greater consensus. Your time and effort to reach a level where we can really cooperate are important, and you might be surprised what we can produce when working together. I appreciate your caring about this issue and look forward to a successful outcome of our efforts. ChemistryProf 05:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick feedback. It takes us another step closer to cooperation. The way I read the guidelines, “truth versus opinion” is not the relevant question. (And it’s good it’s not, because who has the truth?) The only relevant question according to WP guidelines is whether the observation or opinion is backed up by a reliable source, and reliable source is pretty clearly defined (see WP:RS). The qualifier “according to…” is not necessary when a source is cited because the act of citing the source automatically attributes the foregoing statement or word to the source’s author or to another author mentioned in the source. This is standard convention in academic writing. Otherwise we would have to similarly qualify virtually every sentence and every clause or phrase we write. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, it’s not our business as editors to claim “truth” or “fact.” We, all of us editors, are making available to readers of WP the published observations and opinions of others on the subject. This is the way I read the guidelines, and if your reading is different, then show me explicitly the words that differ from that. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not Kuhn that says TM research is leading edge, but someone else in a source that will take me some time to relocate. When I have the source, I’ll put it into a new sentence and put it up for discussion. As claimed above, in scientific or most any other form of academic writing, when a citation is placed after a word or statement, it automatically means the cited source is either the sole source or one of many sources of that statement or idea. It is not necessary to verbally qualify each sentence or clause. This would be too cumbersome. ChemistryProf 07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I think we are inching closer to a take-off point that will free us all of many cramping concerns and will lead this article to take on the balanced, neutral status we wish for.
ChemistryProf
07:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie 09:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi ChemProf,
Regarding "This is standard convention in academic writing"... Is this the convention even when the cited source is making a disputable statement? It's not as though we're citing someone who says that the earth is round.
Regarding "it’s not our business as editors to claim "truth" or "fact"... Yes, that's why we don't introduce a phrase that implies it is "truth" or "fact" that TM research is leading edge.
I think that it will be very fruitful to discuss this when you've located the actual cite. Tanaats 15:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Great! I’m glad all the frequent editors are chipping in. We’re making some good points and good progress towards a consensus here. I’ll start my observations and responses to these points now, but if I do not get finished tonight, then I’ll continue tomorrow. We’re getting to the real heart of the matter here.
In response to the first two points of Sethie from Jan 6, 07, yes, I think we’re all in tune with the need for citations. This point has been established in the last few exchanges. In your point 2, however, there appears to be a slight but important difference between the statement of your understanding of OR and in the way I read the guidelines. The key statement from the guidelines reads as follows: “the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.” Your statement reads: "Any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article." It’s the last part of this sentence that seems different from the WP:OR guideline. “Directly related to the topic of the article” to me means that there is an obvious connection, not that the exact topic of the article (Transcendental Meditation, in this case) has to be mentioned in the reference cited, which you seemed to be indicating in your paraphrase. But maybe you did not intend the latter to be the meaning, in which case, we are in agreement here. If you did mean that you interpret it the latter way, then how do we determine which is correct? Possibly we can read a lot of other WP articles and see how others have interpreted this. Personally, I think the latter interpretation would be so restrictive that it would be difficult to put together a cogent article on any topic. Can we hear input from others and try to get on the same wavelength here?
Concerning the example of the Kuhn citation, I remind you that this is just an example for us to play with. It may not belong in the Intro any longer. If you remember, it was introduced as an alternative to a sentence that was later eliminated by Sethie and Tanaats. Now the context is different, and so the consideration is different. In any case, just to refresh our memory of Kuhn, his book has to do with the progression of active investigation in any scientific field. He draws on examples from many areas of science to illustrate his points, but the only key requirement is that the field is actively progressing. He illustrates how any such field has members who are enthusiastic about a particular area or direction of study, and detractors who find that same area or direction to be suspect. Ultimately, it turns out that the two types of researchers disagree because their views of the field or even their world views are substantially at odds with each other. How these differences work themselves out over time defines much about the progress of that field of science. At two points in history, usually more than a generation apart, the dominant views underlying the research may become entirely different, constituting a “revolution.” During this process, multiple controversies arise and play themselves out. Historians of science now appear to recognize that Kuhn’s work is a far more accurate picture of the progression of scientific discovery than the earlier concept that science progressed through the orderly accumulation of discoveries of different scientists over a period of time.
Anyway, getting back to our example sentence, if we keep the modifier “leading-edge” (which I earlier indicated is not necessary to the point being made) we may need another reference stating that research on the Transcendental Meditation technique fits this description. I indicated that such a reference has been in my hands some years ago, but it may take a while to relocate it. I remember very well that the point was made by Professor David Edwards, a social scientist at the University of Texas, in reference to the research on the societal effects of the practice of the TM and TM-Sidhi techniques by a sizeable group. I am still searching for the reference, but we can go on with our critical discussion of the guidelines without it.
I agree with Sethie that it’s important we turn some attention on the NPOV guidelines, especially: "representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias." I had planned to examine those next, in relation to our example and beyond. This is great. We’ll pick up here tomorrow. ChemistryProf 06:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting me on that one, Sethie. I mistook your statement for a paraphrase of the earlier statement in OR about “direct relation to the topic.” The sub-section of OR that you quote, however, appears to give approval to the sentence I proposed. One of the points about which entries are not allowed, namely, this one: “It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position” does appear to allow introduction of an argument, so long as it has a reputable source and does not reflect a new interpretation by the editor. The argument of Kuhn that I attempted to introduce was not of my own making. Kuhn says that scientific investigation proceeds through a process that involves various controversies between those who are enthusiastic about certain directions, results etc. and those who attempt to detract from those directions or results. Scientific research on the Transcendental Meditation technique is clearly one example of a field of scientific research. No one can deny that. Thus, while Kuhn does not mention this field of research in particular, his work is nevertheless directly related to the TM research, and, therefore, citing his work seems to satisfy the requirement for RS in this case.
Your point, Sethie, about “leading-edge” (which is really a separate point, since I indicated before that this term could be dropped for simplicity’s sake), may be right, but I cannot tell until I retrieve the paper I read some years ago and go through it again. The paper as a whole was emphasizing the Maharishi Effect, but Edwards may have alluded to the whole body of research on the technique at some point in the paper. We’ll have to revisit this topic when I relocate the source. And in response to the comment by Tanaats, yes, I agree that given the current context in the Intro, the sentence would fit better in the Research section. ChemistryProf 07:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I cannot agree with your statement/interpretation of OR in this case. In the first paragraph of yesterday’s entry in this discussion, I spelled out in detail that the source is Kuhn because his analysis is intended to apply to ALL active fields of research. This is not something I have stretched to connect with Transcendental Meditation research, but something that is directly connected with research of any kind. Moreover, this same first paragraph from yesterday answers (and was intended to answer) the earlier question from Sethie about ALL scientific research. The only scientific research areas Kuhn’s analysis might not apply to are those that are “dead,” that is, they are no longer active, or those areas that do not challenge anyone’s paradigm in the field. Neither of these fit the research on Transcendental Meditation. So, the Kuhn citation is the appropriate RS for the sentence, assuming we remove the term “leading-edge,” which I said long ago was not necessary and could be dropped. Because the sentence has a valid RS, there is no OR. I like your humorous allusion to pre-emptive strikes, but that was not my point or my direction. Quoting OR, “Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources…”
I am disappointed that no one responded to the important question I brought up on the NPOV guidelines, especially the question about proportionality. This is absolutely critical to our reaching a consensus on using the guidelines. I know the point is long, but the most important things cannot be dealt with effectively in “word bites.” We need some thoughtful input here. Please respond. ChemistryProf 06:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Pouncingtiger, please discuss with us before making any more massive deletions. Tanaats 07:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, as noted by others, I am a newbie and was not aware that this forum existed. It wasn't intentional vandalism. This is a completely different form of writing/maintaining online content than what I am used to. All content that I deleted was copied from my side and saved because I was going to start researching some of the claims and add any additional information that I thought would be appropriate and/or helpful. But I see that someone else also keeps a current record of content and has already undone "the damage". Pouncingtiger
I was just looking at the archives and got a real feeling of deja vous. Many of the topics we've debated in the past two months have already been covered. For example [16] The problems with the German study, the Otis study, etc. It's a bit dispiriting to see that we've simply been covering the same ground. And to realize that an editor simply resurrected material that had been discussed earlier, and deleted. Here I am starting the process of discussing Otis and noting that it's not in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, etc. and then finding that this has already been discussed in great detail and that there are other problems surrounding it. Sort of depressing. TimidGuy 17:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Roark, Denaro, the Bhagavad Gita. TimidGuy 18:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
At User:Sethie's request, I've reviewed this article and the debate on it. I will not comment on the debate, which is lengthly, but I must agree that the article is unbalanced: the majority of it reads like an advertisement. This would be fixed to a significant extent by removing a lot of material: we don't need the details of the technique. More prominent discussion of the controversial and pseudoscientific aspects of TM is also needed. There is a very critical review here: [19], which provides references for various notable errors made by TM. Michaelbusch 17:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I must note that I strongly disagree that the article reads like an advertisement, and that it is unbalanced toward a pro-TM stance. The entry does indeed contain a great amount of controversial material, and in my mind it contains negative opinions that are made to seem (to the unknowledgeable reader) to represent a large number of people, while the majority of meditators disagree with those viewpoints, or have had very different experiences with practice of the TM technique. The challenge of Wikipedia, of course, is to find valid sources that state both sides of the picture, and ideally represent them in a realistic, accurate proportion. A number of editors have conscientiously put in time to reword a phrase, add something here or there, to restore the delicate balance (oh, the power of a single word...). Skepdic.com is cited and therefore accessible to the reader - but to put even more attention to its narrowly accepted viewpoints would certainly be a flagrant distortion of the subject, and throw this entry even further from becoming the "good" Wiki article that the guidelines are striving for. Purple Iris 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed some of the material from the intro. There are two separate problems with the article, in my opinion. One is the representation of TM, the other is the style of the article. Given that there is considerable debate on the first, I have restricted myself to the second. Material such as 'TM ... is a technique practiced is a mental technique practiced for twenty minutes twice a day while one sits with the eyes closed. A distinguishing feature of this meditation program is its lack of effort, as contrasted with techniques involving concentration, or those involving contemplation or active thinking' read like advertising, and are largely irrelevant at best and violate Wikipedia is not a soapbox at worst.
There are still severe style problems with the article, aside from the content. Michaelbusch 01:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I know that you are trying to help, but I'm actually not comfortable with the idea that you're going to come in and make large edits without discussing it first. Tanaats 02:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I really think you should stop. Now you are deleting well sourced material because you don't happen to agree with it. It's going to be a lot of work undoing all of this. Tanaats 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Michael, I only have one revert left without violating 3RR. Carry on and I'll just wait to do one big revert tomorrow. Keep deleting well sourced material and I'll report you for vandalism. Your input is most welcome but having you take over unilaterally is not, at least not as far as I'm concerned. Tanaats 02:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tanaats that removing well sourced stuff isn't helpful Michael, and I do think you have a point about the effortless part. Maybe there is some middle ground. I will play with the wording some, let me know what you think.
Sethie
02:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoa there Nelly!(Michael) I am reminded that in writing an article on TM , we are reporting what the organization says about itself. If the TM Organization describes its techniques as effortless than thats what we write . I can't go in a decide I don't like that and change the meaning or word. It may read like a soapbox speech, to someone but if thats what they say about themselves thats what we say.They are the experts on their own material, and we are writing about them.The article is somewhat awkward but that can be remedied. I am not sure it has been a priority with all that has been going on.(
olive
03:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC))
Michaelbush says these statements are "unverifiable by nature." In fact, EEG data and neural imaging have verified, for example, that Tibetan Buddhist meditation, mindfulness meditation, and the Transcendental Meditation technique are very different. Tibetan meditation is strenuous, with EEG readings in the 40 Hz range, or otherwise known as gamma waves. In addition, neural imaging shows that the brain is very active. In mindfulness meditation, the brain appears to be imbalanced, with considerable activity in the left front cortex -- the part of the brain associated with evaluating.
In contrast, EEG patterns during the Transcendental Meditation technique characteristically show global coherent alpha waves, which are correlated with the simplest form of awareness. This EEG pattern isn’t seen in other practices of meditation. Neural imaging of the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique shows that the front and back of the brain, the attentional system, are more awake and active than when one is just sitting with one’s eyes closed, while the thalamus, which is the gateway of experience, is less active. In other words, this indicates an experience of "restful alertness." The attentional system is alert, while the mental experience is inward rather than outward.
I agree that it is intuitively difficult concept for people to understand that the Transcendental Meditation technique is effortless. One would typically assume that it entails concentration, but the EEG and neural imaging make clear that the mind is in a restfully alert state, especially as compared to the other forms of meditation. And by the way, the characteristic EEG patterns are seen within two months of an individual’s first beginning the practice. TimidGuy 12:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Creating an archive is long overdue. I propose creating an archive through item #44.
One reason I want to do this is so that page isn't so unwieldy when we do an RfC. Are we agreed that we'll be doing RfCs on Denaro and Otis?
Regarding the fact that Otis wasn't published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, Sethie questions whether that's required in Wikipedia. Here's what WP:RS says: "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." TimidGuy 12:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Please keep in mind WP:5, which says that authoritative sources are especially important when the topic is controversial. In my opinion, you can't just say, well this is a study, but it's not really a scholarly source, so we'll treat it as a non-scholarly source, and this isn't really controversial issue, so we can just use whatever evidence we find, including a study that's not been published in an academic journal and hasn't been peer-reviewed. You probably know that researchers are desperate to get published in academic journals -- "publish or perish." If it wasn't published in such a journal, it was likely flawed. Otis's work had problems. David OJ's site describes the serious flaws in another study that he did.
On the other hand, the TM research has been published in top journals. Not one of the studies in the top medical journals mentions adverse effects. Otis's findings are atypical, which sends up a red flag. Here's a quote from the New York Times from the principal investigator for one of the most recent studies in which she says there are no side effects (and by the way, she doesn't practice TM):
"The good thing about meditation is that it has a very nice quality-of-life component," said the senior author of the study, Dr. C. Noel Bairey Merz, professor of medicine at the University of California , at Los Angeles. "There's no ongoing financial cost, no side effects and a lot of data to demonstrate that it has a beneficial effect." [20]
This study was published by the American Medical Association.
Peer review is the standard -- especially for such controversial claims. Once I've worked on the section on TM research some more (so that people can see the quality of the peer-reviewed research on TM), then we begin dispute procedures. It'll be great to get feedback. Maybe you're right. But my reading of the guidelines says that if it's a study, it needs to be peer reviewed. TimidGuy 21:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I've mentioned a number of times that one goal I have is to rework the section on research so that it better represents the more recent research, espcially the NIH-funded research that has appeared in the past 10 years in peer-reviewed medical journals. To that end, I've added subheads as a first step in rewriting that section. TimidGuy 15:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
You seem to have deleted part of the Talk page. Can you figure out how to restore it? TimidGuy 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I recently got strongly corrected on another article by an extremely experienced editor and Admin. I had interleaved my resonses into the very long comments of another editor because I thought it would make the interaction clearer I was informed that this actually created confusion, and this it was considered bad etiquette in WP.
I see his point now. The main problem IMO is that we end up with a lot of discussion fragments that don't have a signature, making the interaction very hard to follow.
I propose that we observe this point of etiquette in the future. It is a bit more work composing replies, but I think that is much more clarity in the long run.
What do you all think? Tanaats 16:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello 151.202.185.21... Please hang a "fact" tag on unsourced statements if you want to challenge the statement. That gives editors a chance to find a cite. Thanks. Tanaats 16:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like you're new to Wikipedia. So... The way to point out that a statement is unsourced is to add "{{fact}}" immediately after the statement that you want to challenge. Tanaats 16:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
very strange... the below was a new thread - a new page.... and it has popped up on this page ..... sorry about that( olive 18:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC))
Thank you all for the feed- back on my points.
From bottom to top:
This isn't an argument its a request to reformat so that we can include more information easily...
"Only POV sites use it that way." Interestng claim Timidguy. Can you explain how that is true, in refference to these three non-pov sites (which BTW I posted above)
[23],
[24],
[25]? I also have a little book in front of me called "TM and Cult Mania" which reffers to TM not just as a technique, but well, as a cult. How is that a "POV site?" :)
Adherents.com lists it as a religion. [26], and lists the following refferences which call TM a religion or a sect: Occhiogrosso, Peter. The Joy of Sects: A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally published as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 765., Chryssides, George. Exploring New Religions. London, U.K.: Cassells (1999). [Original source of 50 thousand worldwide figure: web site: New Religious Movements (University of Virginia)], O'Brien, J. & M. Palmer. The State of Religion Atlas. Simon & Schuster: New York (1993); pg. 35., etc., etc., etc. I count 8 sources that call it such - excluding those that call it a cult. Sethie 18:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
With this many solid scholarly refferences, it is time to put into the intro the fact that outside the TM organization, Transcendental Mediation reffers to the technique and the movement. It will also settle the long-standing issue of what this article is about- the TM Movement, and in the mainstream society (and more importantly, in the scholarly press) what "Transcendental Meditation" means. Sethie 18:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
TG you believe "They are all religious or anti-cult." It is true that this is your opinion. Now please look at the actual sources and see if your opinion is in line with reality. Your stance is just flat our wrong here.
I took TimidGuy to mean that the "point of view" was from the religious or ant-cult point of view not that the sites themselves were religious or anti-cult .....does that make sense( olive 00:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC))
So, Yahoo is religious or anti cult? [28] So, Marian-Webster's encyclopedia of World Religions is religious or anit cult? [29] So, A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.) is religious or anit-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989) is religious or anti-cult? So, Adherents.com is religious or anti-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Univ. of V, New Religious movements website is religious or anti-cult? [30] So the article "Patterns of Diffusion and Religious Globalization: An Empirical Survey of New Religious Movement" is a religious article, or anit-cult?
These are all refference which call "Transcendental Meditation" a NRM, a movement, or a religion. And, ALL of them (please note I have not listed all of the ones I have found) are "religious or anti-cult?" Sethie 21:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I think your new intro is a good start Tanaats and we have 10+ refferences here that "Transcendental Mediation" reffers to the entire movement, not just Maharishi's teachings. Sethie 21:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
So, Yahoo is religious or anti cult? [31] So, Marian-Webster's encyclopedia of World Religions is religious or anit cult? [32] So, A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions. New York: Doubleday (1996); pg. 66.,Crim, Keith (ed.) is religious or anit-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989) is religious or anti-cult? So, Adherents.com is religious or anti-cult? So, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions is religious or anti-cult? So, Univ. of V, New Religious movements website is religious or anti-cult? [33] So the article "Patterns of Diffusion and Religious Globalization: An Empirical Survey of New Religious Movement" is a religious article, or anit-cult?
Trademarks are generally respected by reference works. When an organization finds that its trademark has been incorrectly represented, they contact the reference work. We did this, for example, with the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, which had in incorrect definition and didn't recognized Transcendental Meditation as a trademarked term. They were very responsive and made the change. The lastest print edition is correct. We'll likely follow up with the reference works you mentioned.
The definition of a trademarked term isn't a matter of usage, but a matter of law. If a handful of specialized reference works misuse it, it doesn't, in my opinion, signify anything. And anyway lexicographers are generally agreed that the general usage is as a meditation technique. See, for example, the American Heritage Dictionary, the Random House Dictionary, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, which correctly recognizes it as a service mark. [34] TimidGuy 20:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the last sentence of Tanaats proposed new Intro, I do not see how this is necessary. In my 36 years of practicing the technique and attending large assemblies, meeting thousands of other practitioners and teachers, watching hundreds of hours of videotapes of Maharishi, I have never heard the term “Transcendental Meditation” used to refer to the whole body of information Maharishi has brought to the West. I have heard the term used as a modifier to identify things other than the technique, such as “movement,” “teacher,” “research,” but I have never heard “Transcendental Meditation knowledge” or “Transcendental Meditation teachings.” I have heard “Maharishi’s knowledge” or “Maharishi’s teachings” used sometimes to refer to the broader field of knowledge, but never have I heard the expression “Transcendental Meditation” alone used to signify the whole body of knowledge that Maharishi gives out. The fact that some reference sources use it that way does not convince me that we need to mention it in the Intro. I do not see how it is relevant to the topic of Transcendental Meditation. ChemistryProf 04:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
It’s pretty much impossible to have any discussion at all on this discussion page if experience and opinions are not allowed. As far as I can tell, the discussion page is all about the opinions and experiences of each of us. Am I wrong in this? ChemistryProf 05:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy. How is the UNIVERSITY OF IOWA NEWS DIGEST a discussion group? Thanks. Tanaats 15:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Now I would like to kick off the discussion of the NPOV guidelines that I put off last night. I agree with Sethie that "representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias" deserves special attention. Of all guidelines, this is the one the creator of Wikipedia has placed at the top, above all others, and for good reason: it is undoubtedly the hardest rule with which to comply. It is clear from my short time on the present article that every editor involved has a point of view, either negative or positive, regarding the Transcendental Meditation technique. Sometimes the hardest thing of all is to monitor our own biases. We tend to be blind to those and keenly aware of any other person’s views, whether they are open or concealed, that may be different from ours. The sentence I objected to in the Intro that has now been removed was one such sentence. Although the sentence itself may have been technically correct, because of the context and the way it was stated, it jumped out at as a biased statement. It is true that a few scientists have published objections to one or more published research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique. It is also true that others have rebutted those criticisms in print. To mention the critical papers without also mentioning the rebuttals is biased and unfair. On the other hand, neither the critical papers nor their rebuttals form a very significant part of the research literature on the technique. The question then becomes, “When does an especially negative or positive point of view deserve mention in a WP article?” What I would like to argue here is that by “proportionate” representation, the guideline means that each article should represent the knowledge about that topic in a manner proportionate to the knowledge that is available on the topic. Thus, if 95% of the 200 or so peer reviewed research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique show statistically significant positive effects and 5% show no significant effect or a significant effect that is interpreted to be negative, then that point should show up somehow in the article. To choose a paper from the 5% to present in the article would not be proportionate representation. Proportionate representation would mean for every 20 of the positive articles presented, there should be one negative one to make it proportionate. There are other ways to deal with the requirement of proportionality, but I am throwing this out as one example and a possible way to deal with it. How about some feedback or other opinions on how to maintain proportionate representation?
Keep up the good work all of you editors involved in this article. We need this clarification and consensus to make more rapid progress and to make our lives easier! Oh, and I apologize for chopping up Tanaat’s paragraph two days ago without clearly identifying each part as his. ChemistryProf 07:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, if anyone wishes to move other people’s paragraphs around and start new threads, at least put something in the previous place to indicate that. Better yet, leave the paragraph where it was but leave a message saying it is duplicated in a new thread. Even then, it may be better to move the whole entry rather than one paragraph. In any case, I apologize for making the thread so long. I see the value in keeping them shorter. However, I don’t want to lose the heading of the previous thread. Perhaps we can duplicate the original heading (title) of the thread, with a word or two added to show its current direction.
Concerning the NPOV paragraph, I introduced those numbers of peer reviewed papers to elicit some discussion of the meaning of “proportional” in the NPOV guidelines. This was one way of interpreting the guideline. Thus, if 5% of the 200 articles have weak data or data that could be taken as negative in some way, that would represent a proportion of 1 article in 20. Another way of maintaining “proportionality” is to think of the full range of published opinions on the technique, since much of the content seems to revolve around those. I suspect, as is the case with other natural phenomena, the frequency of highly positive, neutral, and highly negative opinions follows a bell-shaped curve, with the vast majority making up the middle and the extremes being somewhere around 2.5% on each end of the curve. Does NPOV then mean that in representing the topic, we should devote 95% of the content to the “middle” opinions and 2.5% to each extreme? If so, then we have some work to do, as we all know. The middle is nowhere near fairly represented in the current version. ChemistryProf 04:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Good points, but I seem to remember comments in the discussion from various editors, even from Sethie, in which such judgments were made. As for “have work to do,” there also, I seem to recall opinions from Sethie and Tanaats that the article is imbalanced toward the positive. In fact, in Sethie’s statement just now “18+ positive studies,” who said they are positive? Isn’t that Sethie’s opinion?
In digging deep into NPOV, I’m just trying to find out what the possible metrics are for determining balance or proportion and how we can apply them fairly. If my formulae are unworkable, what ideas do others have? It is not clear to me that just because we can find positive and negative opinions in the published literature that we should have an equal mix of both. What if there are 1000 positive and 50 negative? Would it be balanced to present equal numbers of each? ChemistryProf 05:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
"On the other hand, neither the critical papers nor their rebuttals form a very significant part of the research literature on the technique. The question then becomes, “When does an especially negative or positive point of view deserve mention in a WP article?” What I would like to argue here is that by “proportionate” representation, the guideline means that each article should represent the knowledge about that topic in a manner proportionate to the knowledge that is available on the topic. Thus, if 95% of the 200 or so peer reviewed research papers on the Transcendental Meditation technique show statistically significant positive effects and 5% show no significant effect or a significant effect that is interpreted to be negative, then that point should show up somehow in the article. To choose a paper from the 5% to present in the article would not be proportionate representation. Proportionate representation would mean for every 20 of the positive articles presented, there should be one negative one to make it proportionate. There are other ways to deal with the requirement of proportionality, but I am throwing this out as one example and a possible way to deal with it. How about some feedback or other opinions on how to maintain proportionate representation?"
So sure, he is talking about undue weight of THE STUDIES. That still does not explain why you think I should be responding to your the 2/3 thingie. Sethie 18:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
(Sethie and TimidGuy, FWIW I protested on another article when someone copied one of my comments to a new section and replied to it there. I eventually went to the Help page and asked about it. I was told by two different people there that this is called "refactoring", and that refactoring was perfectly legitimate if it adds clarity and reduces confusion. IMO Sethie's refactoring accomplished that. Your mileage may vary, of course.) Tanaats 18:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
You have expressed both on this page and on your AMA request that you think I have control of the article, however is that true?
Via your input, the reportings of the German study were decreased. Via your input Roark was removed. You just removed the screening for pyschiatric issues which I won't touch. You say I revert every change, however, when you removed the "disucssion group" did I revert it? You have added numerous studies, have I erased them? You added the unified field/science stuff, did I erase that? You wanted "Hindu Text" not linked with the BG, is it? You rewrote the section on Canter and Ernst study, which I shortened, however is the essence of your contribution still there? I provided a CITED critique that TM research has not made it into the top education journals- you removed it, did I revert it back?
I provided a citation that the JAMA case was dismissed. You removed it, placed your own interpretation of what happened, WITHOUT A CITATION. And that is how the article reads, right now! You included a partial rebut of Denaro, did I remove that? You have included a rebuttal by Orme to the claims of TM being a cult. Have I erased that? While Orme's website is a primary source, have I challenged his reliability to report on a GERMAN Court Case?
You have asked me to stop adding material and I have.
I know it must be frustrating to have me around. Unlike me, you had pure and actual de facto control of this article for months.
Anyone can say anything. You can say I am in control. And is it true? Or, is it more true to say we have been working together for months, vigiriously debating things, and sometiems what you want happens, and sometimes what Sethie wants happens? Sethie 18:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, there is no claim by Denaro in the article which says the research is flawed. How is my removal of a rebutal to something that isn't in the article, a violation of NPOV? Which portion of the NPOV policy are you thinking I violated and how do you think it is harmony with NPOV to include a rebutal to a claim which is not in the article?
I believe the majority of wiki editors would actually argue that your desire to include it violates NPOV! Sethie 17:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Good additions on the research. Tanaats 22:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto!
And, I am wondering about the word choice "reduced death rates"..... I don't think the Maharishi has yet provided anything that can stop death! Sethie 22:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
With all the disucssion about Kuhn, I overlooked something. Chemistryprof, you removed a key idea from the intro. "The validity of that research has been questioned, AS WELL AS THE NATURE OF THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF."
I consider that a significant change. Please follow the guidelines at the top of this discussion page, specifically "and when submitting your edit, please include an accurate and concise description in the "Edit summary" field-box."
That sentence contained two ideas. You changed one with the Kuhn and flat out deleted the other. Leaving that deletion out of the summary field I do not consider accurate. If the sentence contained only one idea which you played with, I would consider that accurate.
Given the sheer amount of controvery surrounding the organization I believe having that idea expressed in the intro fits... even Lumiere conceeded that! However, I am unsure how to do it, I battled for nearly a month with her to construct an intro that worked for both of us. I am open to suggestions. Sethie 07:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Sethie 07:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not remember the exact words I put into the edit summary, but I tried to be complete in my description. I probably said "removed last sentence and replaced it with another," or something to that effect. My intentention was to put something more neutral than the sentence that was there. In my discussion, I included both parts of the sentence and the reasons they do not comply with NPOV. ChemistryProf 22:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Lately some external links have been added. I've recently been looking at the guideline WP:EL, which clearly constrains the use of external links. Many of our external links shouldn't be there. WP:EL says that external links should adhere to WP:RS. That would mean, for example, no personal sites and no POV sites. The guideline encourages brevity and says that there should be a good reason for adding an external link. Seems like most of our external links should be deleted. TimidGuy 16:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I see what you are saying but can you see what I am saying .... If I am writing about Maharishi Sthapatya Veda .... then that is what I am writing about, sorry that is relatively obtuse, but I guess what I am saying is , I am not in a position to add anything to this article one way or the other .... I am just reporting what this organization says about itself. I can't compare it to something else and I can't comment on it. All I can do is report the material ... thats all ... If I want to say something about whether that is verifiable or not ..... well that is another topic. I am not allowed an opinion here. I'm not writing about whether TMO teachings are facts or not I am just reporting.If I am reporting my dog's coat ... the dog I wish I had, I can report on its colour or length , but I can't say , I love this dog's coat or the dog should have a different coat .... I can only say this is the coat she has (I will get any point in about my imaginary dog, that I can:) ...)
I am citing "External Links", as TG had commented on links, and I agree that Wikipedia is not necessarily reliable. Frankly I would never send a student here to look for information. It could be inaccurate or accurate, equally. I am interested in the guidelines and how we interpret them, and administer them. I am commenting on a discussion page, and don't feel its appropriate for you to tell me I'm in for a hard time. This is a game, not life, and I am trying to understand the rules as are we all, if I understand the comments made. I am entitled to discuss as are you and the others, and I am allowed to make mistakes and to come up with insights as are we all.
I think that the linking an article for whatever reason and inside or outside Wikipedia is not a cut and dried situation, and find that Wikipedia itself seems contradictory on this. Its worth discussing.( olive 22:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC))
And actually no this isn't about SV, its about Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, and thats a an important distinction, I think. If I were writing about SV than I would have to go to a multitude of references. MSV might be one reference I'd look at,and maybe not. This is the so called "TM" site so I have to work within that boundary, and report on MSV as opposed to SV ( olive 22:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)).
yes thanks, I am very aware of these guidelines. I think there were two cases were i added a letter or replaced a missing word that had no impact on meaning in any way and entered these as minor edits. Are you expecting to be ambushed with an edit war....just kidding( olive 01:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC))
I feel like this article has many problems. Some of them we've discussed, such as Otis, Denaro, and undue weight, which are unresolved, as well as many that haven't yet been broached. At the risk of being crucified, I've created a sandbox page in which I list the issues. Ideally this could serve as a guide in helping us to prioritize our concerns and to proceed. And it serves as a cautionary note regarding adding new material, since so much of the material alreardy here has problems.
The list would be to list the points of contention, prioritize them, and then tackle them one by one. What do you think? TimidGuy 17:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, ComputerJoe. I hadn't thought of that possibility. I agree that that would be much better. My idea was that all of the discussion of the points would take place here, except for the discussion of priorities. And I imagined that we would all edit the list of priorities.
So far no one has said they like the idea. . . . No point in going ahead unless people feel it's useful. I see it as a vehicle of collaboration as we work to make this a better article. TimidGuy 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Tanaats. Appreciate your kind words. No problem doing everything here.
ComputerJoe, I'd been planning to create an archive for some time -- as you'll see in an earlier thread -- but hadn't gotten to it. I usually do it early in the morning when no one else is around. I'll do it tomorrow morning instead of beginning to follow up on the mediation, as I'd been planning. We do need to decide how much of it to archive. I'd proposed through #44 but I guess we can do more of it. Some of the threads may still be active. TimidGuy 22:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)