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Hi, I did my best to write a readable article, i know my i'm not the best writer in English, and i'm not the most accurate writer either. I believe i've the needed sources to defend the content of the article. So, please help with improving my English and the content. If you believe that a claim is not accurate or even wrong, please use the talk-page [although you're not obligated] to explain your opinion. You might also be wrong! On the other hand, this article is not done, i wrote now only on the polytheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'll later try to add the monotheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'm gratefull for you coorporation and expanding of the article. Read3r 13:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The image in this following site is a picture for a numidian pyramid, it is found in other sites too. Do i violate the copyrights of the image by uploading it here? http://elguanche.net/imedghasen.jpg Thanks in advance, Read3r 19:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I did a little bit of proofing/editing on the Judaism section of your article--(ethnocentric Jew that I am, I ignored the rest). It still needs professional help. For your comment about "David U Moshe" or "David N Baruch" being Jewish Berber names, what do you mean? "David", "Baruch" and "Moshe" are simply Hebrew names ... Do you mean that the "U" and the "N" respectively are the idicators of Berber influence on these Jewish names? Wouldn't it then be something like "Davidou"? I don't know enough about Berber to say. I think some seriopus fact checking and editing needs ot be done, no offense. 38.119.129.16 16:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Smith2006, sorry for reverting your contribution in that section. My reasons are: Unsufficient content: Its says not a lot about the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It does not show how christianity emerged there, and how the people approached it. Also it didn't say any thing about the contribution of the north africans.
The struggle between the Romans and the berbers was ignored.
I don't believe that the Moroccan christians suffers in morocco for their religion.
What you said about the some berbers converted to christianity during the colonization is doubtful.
If you insist you can re-revert it. Maybe, we will discuss it after some months. I left that section as last one, because i know it is difficult and i wanted to learn more before writing there about. Best regards; Read3r 14:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed your contribution again; Other reasons are: Your contribution was almost contentless to the history of the christianity in the Berber communities. I agree with you that the section was called "Christianity in North west Africa". Nevertheless, the article is about "the Berber beliefs". So, it was not aimed to cover neither the history of the Greeks or "Ibero-Romans" in North Africa nor the Moroccan and Algerian muslims. Sorry for sayying it is irrelevant to the Berber beliefs. If you think it is an urgent fact that cannot bear any ignorance, you can write those relevant statemnets in an article called "christianity in Morocco and Algerian". Furthermore, i don't see why you are insisting to write it. What did i learnt?
In any case, the content should be written in relationship with the Berbers, and there is no need to take morocco, algeria, Iran and muslims into consideration. So, write another relevant content, and you will see i'm happy to read it. Read3r 10:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I know you tend to personalize the discussion! Yes, you're right it is not of me. But i don't like seeing an article written by me being misused to attack any group or religion. Nevertheless, i'm not that utopic. In fact i see you contribution as not related the subject of the article. This article is not aimed to cover the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It is aimed to the cover the berber beliefs. The christianity is one those beliefs. It is not correct that i want you to believe that all Berbers were muslims from the down of the history; The Guanches are now Christians. Those people are considered to be Berbers. It is the main goal of this article to uncover their beliefs. If you could understand this. That section must has the berbers as the main role player. And not equaling them with the romans and Greeks. If you want to write a general article on the history of the christianity in Northwest africa you can then begin another article called "The christianity in Northwest Africa". By the way, some one told me that Agustine, Tertullian, Donatus, Cyprianus, Arius and Arnobius were Berbers. But i don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for understanding. Read3r 14:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it allowed to post citations of ancient historians like "Herodotus" in wikipedia? This is an example of a citation: but about this god the Hellenes learnt from the Libyans, for no people except the Libyans have had the name of Poseidon from the first and have paid honour to this god always I copied this citaion from this site. Do we need to refer to the source if it is an acceptable idea? Read3r 14:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
If no body has objection, i would remove the sections about Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam. the Reasons are: The article is being too long, especially when adding the references. The monontheistic religions should be written in other articles. Read3r 13:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
If Christianity , Judaism and Islam are not included in this page , it is probably because it is about Berber mythology and not Berber religions. I think there are already articles about religions in North Africa. Ekarfi13 ( talk) 15:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
This article should be moved to Berber_religion. Strictly speaking, very little of this article has to do with mythology, which refers to certain sorts of sacred narratives (or to the body of such narratives). While the customs and history here touch on mythological connections in many cases, they themselves do not constitute mythology. However, I see nothing here that would be problematic in an article on Berber religious beliefs. If there are no objections within the next few weeks, I will move this page to that location and put a redirect from the present location to the new one.
As a second point, there are many citations in the article that are simply incomplete. Could whoever supplied them please provide their full citation forms? Simply providing someone's name is not sufficient to find the information. In addition, to satisfy Wikipedia's emphasis on verifiability, personal communication as the citation would actualy be grounds for deleting information in this article. I don't think that would be appropriate or wise to do, but the citations do need to be cleaned up. -- Fenevad 01:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My definition for the name "mythology" is "the science of the myths". "myth" + "logy" (science from Greek maybe). The science in its nature doesn't cover the myths, but it studies it instead. However, it was not me who gave it this name. the name was given to categorical purposes. If you believe it cannot be called like this, we can start a poll asking for the other opionions, and personally i don't have any problem with other names. But titles such "religion" and "historical religions" are also not accurate. "Judaism" and "Chrisitianity" are also included in an article that would be called "Historical religions". The first name given by me was "Berber beliefs", however, this is also not accurate, because judaism ... were also among berber beliefs.
You are right in the two points, the name of the author is Arthur C. Aufderheide. I think i'll remove it. It is not very needed
For this i don't the other details. I know that Moustapha Ouachi is an archeologist and historian, a prof. in the Moroccan university Mohammed V in Rabat, and a member of the IRCAM with some books on the Berber history especially the Classical ones. The article was copied by the libyan sites tawalt.com and set in its archive, i have the full article, but i thought it is almost useless in the English wikipedia since it is written in Arabic: ( The article)
It is an informative book (my personal opinion) written by Mohammed Chafik, a historian and ex-director of the IRCAM; It is also cited by the antropologist "Helene Hagan" in her own review for the English book "The Berbers": Berber funerary practices seem to have extended from the Atlantic ocean to the banks of the Nile consistently, and might have given rise to the later "Egyptian" funerary rites and the whole pyramidal complex (Cf. Mohammed Chafik, Revue Tifinagh, No. 11-12, 1997, pages 89-98: Elements lexicaux Berberes pouvant apporter un eclairage dans la recherche des origines prehistoriques des pyramides). Such research, stemming from North African scholars, seems to be unavailable to the authors of the book.
This book is also copied by "tawalt.com" in its library. The book and the full name and maybe the page too, were mentioned in an earlier reference in the same page. it is in arabic, unfortunately.
Since, i'm not able to rewrite his work, i only cited them from other sites. The source was mentioned in earlier reference in the same page; If i'm mistaken, please, cite the exact citation
You're right, it is a book written by the Libyan historian "Mohammed Moustapha Bazma", but in Arabic, i only translated the title. I'm also mistaken in the title, because what i gave is the name of the part covering the influences. that part is widely cited in arab sites and fora. I'will later give the exat name
It is Publisher: Xlibris Corporation (29 Jun 2001) I will late add it to the reference
I think i don't understand this. It is the own words of Herodotus on Poseidon attributing to the libyans. The reference is the site where it is cited from
I understand it (luckily :)). The problem is there are no much works covering the history of the Berbers in English. It would be not surprising that the first and only book written on the Berbers in English is recent book "The berbers" (read its review in google). My sources, are principally in Arabic, and i believe the English readers will never read them, because they are untraslated or unfound in Europe and America. The spread of such book is absolutely not encouraged by the North African governement. I post two citation, however offtopic:
In Morocco, during preliminary fieldwork, I encountered deep antagonism on the part of the representative of the Moroccan Minister of Culture to whom I introduced myself in 1981. The message he conveyed to me in clear language was that there were no longer any Berbers in Morocco and that I had been misinformed. Of course, the Arabic gentleman knew nothing of my birthplace or genealogy, and of my personal ties to the Berber community.[
http://www.tazzla.org/berber.htmlBOOK REVIEW
by Helene E. Hagan]
In 1989, a book, written in Arabic, appeared in Morocco with a title of lamhatun aan thalathatin wa thalathina qarnan min tarikhi el' amazighiyyin [Highlights of thirty-three centuries of the history of Imazighen]. It was written by Mohammed Shafiq, a member of the Royal Moroccan Academy who was, until the appearance of his publication, unknown in the public arena. His book that normally wouldn't be published in Morocco caused a division in public opinion.
The New Mass Media and the Shaping of Amazigh Identity read the rest in the part: The challenge of print.
Not because, it was not wise to say that, but i could't answer it since i had to review all the article. I will give the citation needed for the article. If you find there are still unclear answers, just indicate it and for changing the article, i think you should give a correct title (because "religion" or "Historical religion" are inaccurate either, and maybe, the megalithic culture as example is not a religion. Should we then re-call it: "Berber bliefs" but how about the "the monotheistic religions"?). Best regards!
I have started a pretty major copy edit of the text. In the process I am tagging everything that needs citation that doesn't already have it and I am also embedding HTML comments where additional information is needed to guide other editors. If you read the text in the edit window you will find the comments stating what is needed to make the citations complete. If anyone fixes anything noted in the comments, please remove the comments so that other editors don't think more work is needed. - Fenevad 13:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi, I did my best to write a readable article, i know my i'm not the best writer in English, and i'm not the most accurate writer either. I believe i've the needed sources to defend the content of the article. So, please help with improving my English and the content. If you believe that a claim is not accurate or even wrong, please use the talk-page [although you're not obligated] to explain your opinion. You might also be wrong! On the other hand, this article is not done, i wrote now only on the polytheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'll later try to add the monotheistic part of the berber beliefs. I'm gratefull for you coorporation and expanding of the article. Read3r 13:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The image in this following site is a picture for a numidian pyramid, it is found in other sites too. Do i violate the copyrights of the image by uploading it here? http://elguanche.net/imedghasen.jpg Thanks in advance, Read3r 19:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I did a little bit of proofing/editing on the Judaism section of your article--(ethnocentric Jew that I am, I ignored the rest). It still needs professional help. For your comment about "David U Moshe" or "David N Baruch" being Jewish Berber names, what do you mean? "David", "Baruch" and "Moshe" are simply Hebrew names ... Do you mean that the "U" and the "N" respectively are the idicators of Berber influence on these Jewish names? Wouldn't it then be something like "Davidou"? I don't know enough about Berber to say. I think some seriopus fact checking and editing needs ot be done, no offense. 38.119.129.16 16:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Smith2006, sorry for reverting your contribution in that section. My reasons are: Unsufficient content: Its says not a lot about the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It does not show how christianity emerged there, and how the people approached it. Also it didn't say any thing about the contribution of the north africans.
The struggle between the Romans and the berbers was ignored.
I don't believe that the Moroccan christians suffers in morocco for their religion.
What you said about the some berbers converted to christianity during the colonization is doubtful.
If you insist you can re-revert it. Maybe, we will discuss it after some months. I left that section as last one, because i know it is difficult and i wanted to learn more before writing there about. Best regards; Read3r 14:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed your contribution again; Other reasons are: Your contribution was almost contentless to the history of the christianity in the Berber communities. I agree with you that the section was called "Christianity in North west Africa". Nevertheless, the article is about "the Berber beliefs". So, it was not aimed to cover neither the history of the Greeks or "Ibero-Romans" in North Africa nor the Moroccan and Algerian muslims. Sorry for sayying it is irrelevant to the Berber beliefs. If you think it is an urgent fact that cannot bear any ignorance, you can write those relevant statemnets in an article called "christianity in Morocco and Algerian". Furthermore, i don't see why you are insisting to write it. What did i learnt?
In any case, the content should be written in relationship with the Berbers, and there is no need to take morocco, algeria, Iran and muslims into consideration. So, write another relevant content, and you will see i'm happy to read it. Read3r 10:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I know you tend to personalize the discussion! Yes, you're right it is not of me. But i don't like seeing an article written by me being misused to attack any group or religion. Nevertheless, i'm not that utopic. In fact i see you contribution as not related the subject of the article. This article is not aimed to cover the history of the christianity in Northwest Africa. It is aimed to the cover the berber beliefs. The christianity is one those beliefs. It is not correct that i want you to believe that all Berbers were muslims from the down of the history; The Guanches are now Christians. Those people are considered to be Berbers. It is the main goal of this article to uncover their beliefs. If you could understand this. That section must has the berbers as the main role player. And not equaling them with the romans and Greeks. If you want to write a general article on the history of the christianity in Northwest africa you can then begin another article called "The christianity in Northwest Africa". By the way, some one told me that Agustine, Tertullian, Donatus, Cyprianus, Arius and Arnobius were Berbers. But i don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for understanding. Read3r 14:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it allowed to post citations of ancient historians like "Herodotus" in wikipedia? This is an example of a citation: but about this god the Hellenes learnt from the Libyans, for no people except the Libyans have had the name of Poseidon from the first and have paid honour to this god always I copied this citaion from this site. Do we need to refer to the source if it is an acceptable idea? Read3r 14:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
If no body has objection, i would remove the sections about Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam. the Reasons are: The article is being too long, especially when adding the references. The monontheistic religions should be written in other articles. Read3r 13:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
If Christianity , Judaism and Islam are not included in this page , it is probably because it is about Berber mythology and not Berber religions. I think there are already articles about religions in North Africa. Ekarfi13 ( talk) 15:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
This article should be moved to Berber_religion. Strictly speaking, very little of this article has to do with mythology, which refers to certain sorts of sacred narratives (or to the body of such narratives). While the customs and history here touch on mythological connections in many cases, they themselves do not constitute mythology. However, I see nothing here that would be problematic in an article on Berber religious beliefs. If there are no objections within the next few weeks, I will move this page to that location and put a redirect from the present location to the new one.
As a second point, there are many citations in the article that are simply incomplete. Could whoever supplied them please provide their full citation forms? Simply providing someone's name is not sufficient to find the information. In addition, to satisfy Wikipedia's emphasis on verifiability, personal communication as the citation would actualy be grounds for deleting information in this article. I don't think that would be appropriate or wise to do, but the citations do need to be cleaned up. -- Fenevad 01:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My definition for the name "mythology" is "the science of the myths". "myth" + "logy" (science from Greek maybe). The science in its nature doesn't cover the myths, but it studies it instead. However, it was not me who gave it this name. the name was given to categorical purposes. If you believe it cannot be called like this, we can start a poll asking for the other opionions, and personally i don't have any problem with other names. But titles such "religion" and "historical religions" are also not accurate. "Judaism" and "Chrisitianity" are also included in an article that would be called "Historical religions". The first name given by me was "Berber beliefs", however, this is also not accurate, because judaism ... were also among berber beliefs.
You are right in the two points, the name of the author is Arthur C. Aufderheide. I think i'll remove it. It is not very needed
For this i don't the other details. I know that Moustapha Ouachi is an archeologist and historian, a prof. in the Moroccan university Mohammed V in Rabat, and a member of the IRCAM with some books on the Berber history especially the Classical ones. The article was copied by the libyan sites tawalt.com and set in its archive, i have the full article, but i thought it is almost useless in the English wikipedia since it is written in Arabic: ( The article)
It is an informative book (my personal opinion) written by Mohammed Chafik, a historian and ex-director of the IRCAM; It is also cited by the antropologist "Helene Hagan" in her own review for the English book "The Berbers": Berber funerary practices seem to have extended from the Atlantic ocean to the banks of the Nile consistently, and might have given rise to the later "Egyptian" funerary rites and the whole pyramidal complex (Cf. Mohammed Chafik, Revue Tifinagh, No. 11-12, 1997, pages 89-98: Elements lexicaux Berberes pouvant apporter un eclairage dans la recherche des origines prehistoriques des pyramides). Such research, stemming from North African scholars, seems to be unavailable to the authors of the book.
This book is also copied by "tawalt.com" in its library. The book and the full name and maybe the page too, were mentioned in an earlier reference in the same page. it is in arabic, unfortunately.
Since, i'm not able to rewrite his work, i only cited them from other sites. The source was mentioned in earlier reference in the same page; If i'm mistaken, please, cite the exact citation
You're right, it is a book written by the Libyan historian "Mohammed Moustapha Bazma", but in Arabic, i only translated the title. I'm also mistaken in the title, because what i gave is the name of the part covering the influences. that part is widely cited in arab sites and fora. I'will later give the exat name
It is Publisher: Xlibris Corporation (29 Jun 2001) I will late add it to the reference
I think i don't understand this. It is the own words of Herodotus on Poseidon attributing to the libyans. The reference is the site where it is cited from
I understand it (luckily :)). The problem is there are no much works covering the history of the Berbers in English. It would be not surprising that the first and only book written on the Berbers in English is recent book "The berbers" (read its review in google). My sources, are principally in Arabic, and i believe the English readers will never read them, because they are untraslated or unfound in Europe and America. The spread of such book is absolutely not encouraged by the North African governement. I post two citation, however offtopic:
In Morocco, during preliminary fieldwork, I encountered deep antagonism on the part of the representative of the Moroccan Minister of Culture to whom I introduced myself in 1981. The message he conveyed to me in clear language was that there were no longer any Berbers in Morocco and that I had been misinformed. Of course, the Arabic gentleman knew nothing of my birthplace or genealogy, and of my personal ties to the Berber community.[
http://www.tazzla.org/berber.htmlBOOK REVIEW
by Helene E. Hagan]
In 1989, a book, written in Arabic, appeared in Morocco with a title of lamhatun aan thalathatin wa thalathina qarnan min tarikhi el' amazighiyyin [Highlights of thirty-three centuries of the history of Imazighen]. It was written by Mohammed Shafiq, a member of the Royal Moroccan Academy who was, until the appearance of his publication, unknown in the public arena. His book that normally wouldn't be published in Morocco caused a division in public opinion.
The New Mass Media and the Shaping of Amazigh Identity read the rest in the part: The challenge of print.
Not because, it was not wise to say that, but i could't answer it since i had to review all the article. I will give the citation needed for the article. If you find there are still unclear answers, just indicate it and for changing the article, i think you should give a correct title (because "religion" or "Historical religion" are inaccurate either, and maybe, the megalithic culture as example is not a religion. Should we then re-call it: "Berber bliefs" but how about the "the monotheistic religions"?). Best regards!
I have started a pretty major copy edit of the text. In the process I am tagging everything that needs citation that doesn't already have it and I am also embedding HTML comments where additional information is needed to guide other editors. If you read the text in the edit window you will find the comments stating what is needed to make the citations complete. If anyone fixes anything noted in the comments, please remove the comments so that other editors don't think more work is needed. - Fenevad 13:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)