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nine times the hydrocarbons and five times the carbon monoxide emissions of the average European car of 2007
A comparison of a 1957/1962 Card/Engine with a modern 2007 Car really doesn't make much sense. It doesn't really tell us how bad the emissions where at the time. -- 95.91.202.225 ( talk) 19:59, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding this revision as of 19:23, 25 August 2016:
Is there a reliable source that supports this material? Issues of undue weight may arise, considering that other reliable sources describe the car in decidedly less glowing terms. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 07:14, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
That's certainly an interesting factoid, but wasn't in any of the sources for this article that I looked at. "People who" is vague as well. Could this be original research? — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 19:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
The introduction should be improved (maybe this could do somebody well english speaking person). It should be mentioned that the Trabant was used for motorsports already since 1960, with some big sucuess. details see here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant_(Pkw)#Motorsport best, max -- Max schwalbe ( talk) 10:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is www.team.net. Thank you. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:38, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
We have editors on two sides of including his opinion of the Trabant. I'll argue in favor of inclusion but will seek consensus. I'd like to avoid the edit warring. Lets start with a few questions: is he a reliable source? Yes. He is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. He is an automotive journalist and has reviewed numerous vehicles. His opinion is in line with the others that are in the article. Rick Cotta is a source. He is an auto journalist as well. How is Cotta's inclusion (quoted as "patchy assembly quality") appropriate but Demuro's not? MartinezMD ( talk) 22:26, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Some anonymous editor keeps reverting edits but won't discuss the issue on the talk page. So I'll bring it up and hope he will. We have two current sources giving direct opposite positions on reliability - "Reliability was terrible, and the gearshift mechanism is generally agreed upon as one of the worst ever invented." [1] vs "But the Trabant's strongest point was its reliability, based on its simplicity – important when its customers had little money to fix it when it went wrong." [2] I'd like to have a resolution. Maybe another or a few more reviews to clarify the issue? Opinions/input from other editors please. MartinezMD ( talk) 23:15, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
References
This demonstrates a severe problem with wikipedia. The first source is a tabloid newspaper article, written to entertain people by appealing to their prejudices, often disregarding facts in the process. The second source is an actual car expert.
Lo and behold, if you can cite it without starting an edit war, you can include it in the wiki article. Even if the result is a contradictory page of nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:581E:1:81FD:E7F0:F37D:619A ( talk) 15:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
To cut all the nonsense out the article would be a lot smaller and easier to read. A description of the car and it's technical features, product history, manufacturing and the role it played in society, that would be useful and informative. For the most part this is only available on Wikipedia in German. In English we're told nonsense about the gear shifter by some hack who's never seen a citroen DS before either. 2A02:A442:581E:1:81FD:E7F0:F37D:619A ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Editors deleted a section were a statement was given as to why, for 30 years, the Trabant was produced without significant changes, quote from source - "The now-fallen communist state provided ideal conditions for the creation of a truly awful vehicle: a demoralized labour force, incompetently-run factories, and a iron-fisted political system that crushed innovation." [1]. Another statement was that, production ended with the fall of Communism (1990), quote from source - "[..] Trabant was the only car available [..] went out of production in 1990. The fall of the Berlin Wall removed the Trabant's key feature - a monopoly position." [2] and when East Germans had other cars available they abandoned the Trabant, quote from source - "Thousands of East Germans drove their Trabants over the border when the Wall fell, which made it a kind of automotive liberator. Once across the border, the none-too-sentimental Ostdeutschlanders immediately abandoned their cars. Ich bin Junk!" [3]. What do others think about this?! Thank you.-- 81.101.159.55 ( talk) 07:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
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help)
{{
cite web}}
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help)
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cite web}}
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Before Herpa in 2007 japanese Car company Suzuki wanted to buy the name Trabant for rebranding his Jimny as Trabant N1 for better sells in Europe. They had did that in India and Spain before. But the german Treuhand didn't make a Joint venture and so no factory was built. Maxian D-C ( talk) 20:22, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Reading the Trabant article i found it odd that some of the sources were quit biased and sensational, this specifically in the article: "The Trabant's build quality was poor, reliability was terrible, and it was loud, slow, and poorly designed."
The sources that supported these claims are as follows
(13) 10 Worst Cars Ever Made (And 10 of the Most Unfairly Judged)". Auto.Wize.com. Retrieved 29 June 2019.
(10) The 12 worst cars ever built". The Globe and Mail. January 2010. Retrieved 29 June 2019.
(3) De Muro, Doug (November 2016). "The Trabant Was an Awful Car Made by Communists". Autotrader.com. Retrieved 17 November 2018. 2A00:801:70A:86A6:960:78A8:E31D:DAD ( talk) 23:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
I understand the reference I used is not necessarily solid, but the ones are currently cited are incredibly subjective and invalid. Hence I concider the blogpost to be an upgrade. The term "worst" or "best" for a car is subjective. A Trabant is slow and loud, in that aspect not very good, but it is simple in it's construction, repairable, and engineered with a philosophy to be reliable, meaning in that aspect its a great car. I'd definitely encourage for you to look at these articles.
One source, autowise.com, the journalists authority is "wrecking cars for as long as hes been driving them". No proof to have ever driven them, and besides calling them "death boxes", not explaining why the build quality is poor ([13]).
Similar story for the next source, theglobeandmail, where the author does not even show to be any authority on cars ([10]).
Then theres the journal article "The Trabant: Consumption, Eigen-Sinn, and Movement", where there's only once referred to "poor" build quality of products from the DDR in general. With no footnote or citation to go with it ([11])
And the last source is finally a piece of satire on how the author struggles driving in a Trabant with a bunch of extagerrations. Which is, again, an opinion of an individual, and not anything factual ([14]).
Finally all of these sources are from a region in the world where the Trabant is generally made fun of and misunderstood as there are barely any driving around there, and an incredibly unlikely sight to be seen. When looking at German forums or anything else in that region, people speak much more fondly of these cars. They are misunderstood and maligned in echo chambers, mainly for the fact they're from a disputed region at the time. These cars are joked about, but the joking nature is lost in translation and taken too literally.
The author of the blogpost I referenced, has neither more nor less autothority to speak about these cars. There is no bias, it provides factual information, neither for or against the quality of Trabant cars. The youtube video I reference helps people to make up their minds about the structure of the car. The majority of people think they're made of cardboard, or structurally completely of plastic. This is not true, it holds up to par compared to similar western european vehicles of the time. (im not talking about high luxury cars like audis or porches, but whatever normal people drove like compact peugeots, fiats, citroens, etc).
I'd like you to compare the quality of the blogpost compared to whatever is listed currently. I think this source is AS adequate to pull a conclusion from. Though, if we want to improve the quality of wikipedia as a source at all, I think it would be best to simply get completely rid of this statement.
I think, as a Trabbi driver myself, I have personally more experience than the writers of these sources on these cars and the build quality to go with it. And I can tell you, from personal experience, its either satire or completely not true. These cars are really solid, reliable, easy to drive if you're used to manual transmissions, and if you've ever gone to a Hungarian trabbi rally, youll see them drive into trees and flip over constantly without the drivers really getting hurt.
Please either review the sources, or remove the statement completely that the buildquality is poor. This is based on nothing and its simply NOT true. On the Dutch page, it lists that trabants are robust and easy to maintain: Trabants stonden in het Westen bekend als kwalitatief slechte auto's. In werkelijkheid was en is de Trabant echter een robuuste wagen met een vrijwel onverslijtbare techniek die door de eigenaar eenvoudig zelf te onderhouden en te repareren was.
Whilst pages like the German one and Polish one don't even bother to make a remark about the quality of the car (implying its just average). MTMBVD ( talk) 22:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
The article reads like a total damning of the Trabant car. Although it was far from a cutting-edge design at birth, it wasn't "terrible" nor "poorly designed", with especially the former term not being appropriate for a Wikipedia article. The design reflected the characteristics of the GDR at the time, a country in severe debt (both financial and technical, due to war reparations) and which had experienced significant brain drain. References are also of insufficient quality, since the article quotes or cites mostly "pop culture" articles with no particular attention to fairness.
151.45.179.147 (
talk)
17:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
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nine times the hydrocarbons and five times the carbon monoxide emissions of the average European car of 2007
A comparison of a 1957/1962 Card/Engine with a modern 2007 Car really doesn't make much sense. It doesn't really tell us how bad the emissions where at the time. -- 95.91.202.225 ( talk) 19:59, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding this revision as of 19:23, 25 August 2016:
Is there a reliable source that supports this material? Issues of undue weight may arise, considering that other reliable sources describe the car in decidedly less glowing terms. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 07:14, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
That's certainly an interesting factoid, but wasn't in any of the sources for this article that I looked at. "People who" is vague as well. Could this be original research? — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 19:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
The introduction should be improved (maybe this could do somebody well english speaking person). It should be mentioned that the Trabant was used for motorsports already since 1960, with some big sucuess. details see here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant_(Pkw)#Motorsport best, max -- Max schwalbe ( talk) 10:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is www.team.net. Thank you. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:38, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
We have editors on two sides of including his opinion of the Trabant. I'll argue in favor of inclusion but will seek consensus. I'd like to avoid the edit warring. Lets start with a few questions: is he a reliable source? Yes. He is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. He is an automotive journalist and has reviewed numerous vehicles. His opinion is in line with the others that are in the article. Rick Cotta is a source. He is an auto journalist as well. How is Cotta's inclusion (quoted as "patchy assembly quality") appropriate but Demuro's not? MartinezMD ( talk) 22:26, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Some anonymous editor keeps reverting edits but won't discuss the issue on the talk page. So I'll bring it up and hope he will. We have two current sources giving direct opposite positions on reliability - "Reliability was terrible, and the gearshift mechanism is generally agreed upon as one of the worst ever invented." [1] vs "But the Trabant's strongest point was its reliability, based on its simplicity – important when its customers had little money to fix it when it went wrong." [2] I'd like to have a resolution. Maybe another or a few more reviews to clarify the issue? Opinions/input from other editors please. MartinezMD ( talk) 23:15, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
References
This demonstrates a severe problem with wikipedia. The first source is a tabloid newspaper article, written to entertain people by appealing to their prejudices, often disregarding facts in the process. The second source is an actual car expert.
Lo and behold, if you can cite it without starting an edit war, you can include it in the wiki article. Even if the result is a contradictory page of nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A442:581E:1:81FD:E7F0:F37D:619A ( talk) 15:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
To cut all the nonsense out the article would be a lot smaller and easier to read. A description of the car and it's technical features, product history, manufacturing and the role it played in society, that would be useful and informative. For the most part this is only available on Wikipedia in German. In English we're told nonsense about the gear shifter by some hack who's never seen a citroen DS before either. 2A02:A442:581E:1:81FD:E7F0:F37D:619A ( talk) 15:14, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Editors deleted a section were a statement was given as to why, for 30 years, the Trabant was produced without significant changes, quote from source - "The now-fallen communist state provided ideal conditions for the creation of a truly awful vehicle: a demoralized labour force, incompetently-run factories, and a iron-fisted political system that crushed innovation." [1]. Another statement was that, production ended with the fall of Communism (1990), quote from source - "[..] Trabant was the only car available [..] went out of production in 1990. The fall of the Berlin Wall removed the Trabant's key feature - a monopoly position." [2] and when East Germans had other cars available they abandoned the Trabant, quote from source - "Thousands of East Germans drove their Trabants over the border when the Wall fell, which made it a kind of automotive liberator. Once across the border, the none-too-sentimental Ostdeutschlanders immediately abandoned their cars. Ich bin Junk!" [3]. What do others think about this?! Thank you.-- 81.101.159.55 ( talk) 07:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
Before Herpa in 2007 japanese Car company Suzuki wanted to buy the name Trabant for rebranding his Jimny as Trabant N1 for better sells in Europe. They had did that in India and Spain before. But the german Treuhand didn't make a Joint venture and so no factory was built. Maxian D-C ( talk) 20:22, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Reading the Trabant article i found it odd that some of the sources were quit biased and sensational, this specifically in the article: "The Trabant's build quality was poor, reliability was terrible, and it was loud, slow, and poorly designed."
The sources that supported these claims are as follows
(13) 10 Worst Cars Ever Made (And 10 of the Most Unfairly Judged)". Auto.Wize.com. Retrieved 29 June 2019.
(10) The 12 worst cars ever built". The Globe and Mail. January 2010. Retrieved 29 June 2019.
(3) De Muro, Doug (November 2016). "The Trabant Was an Awful Car Made by Communists". Autotrader.com. Retrieved 17 November 2018. 2A00:801:70A:86A6:960:78A8:E31D:DAD ( talk) 23:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
I understand the reference I used is not necessarily solid, but the ones are currently cited are incredibly subjective and invalid. Hence I concider the blogpost to be an upgrade. The term "worst" or "best" for a car is subjective. A Trabant is slow and loud, in that aspect not very good, but it is simple in it's construction, repairable, and engineered with a philosophy to be reliable, meaning in that aspect its a great car. I'd definitely encourage for you to look at these articles.
One source, autowise.com, the journalists authority is "wrecking cars for as long as hes been driving them". No proof to have ever driven them, and besides calling them "death boxes", not explaining why the build quality is poor ([13]).
Similar story for the next source, theglobeandmail, where the author does not even show to be any authority on cars ([10]).
Then theres the journal article "The Trabant: Consumption, Eigen-Sinn, and Movement", where there's only once referred to "poor" build quality of products from the DDR in general. With no footnote or citation to go with it ([11])
And the last source is finally a piece of satire on how the author struggles driving in a Trabant with a bunch of extagerrations. Which is, again, an opinion of an individual, and not anything factual ([14]).
Finally all of these sources are from a region in the world where the Trabant is generally made fun of and misunderstood as there are barely any driving around there, and an incredibly unlikely sight to be seen. When looking at German forums or anything else in that region, people speak much more fondly of these cars. They are misunderstood and maligned in echo chambers, mainly for the fact they're from a disputed region at the time. These cars are joked about, but the joking nature is lost in translation and taken too literally.
The author of the blogpost I referenced, has neither more nor less autothority to speak about these cars. There is no bias, it provides factual information, neither for or against the quality of Trabant cars. The youtube video I reference helps people to make up their minds about the structure of the car. The majority of people think they're made of cardboard, or structurally completely of plastic. This is not true, it holds up to par compared to similar western european vehicles of the time. (im not talking about high luxury cars like audis or porches, but whatever normal people drove like compact peugeots, fiats, citroens, etc).
I'd like you to compare the quality of the blogpost compared to whatever is listed currently. I think this source is AS adequate to pull a conclusion from. Though, if we want to improve the quality of wikipedia as a source at all, I think it would be best to simply get completely rid of this statement.
I think, as a Trabbi driver myself, I have personally more experience than the writers of these sources on these cars and the build quality to go with it. And I can tell you, from personal experience, its either satire or completely not true. These cars are really solid, reliable, easy to drive if you're used to manual transmissions, and if you've ever gone to a Hungarian trabbi rally, youll see them drive into trees and flip over constantly without the drivers really getting hurt.
Please either review the sources, or remove the statement completely that the buildquality is poor. This is based on nothing and its simply NOT true. On the Dutch page, it lists that trabants are robust and easy to maintain: Trabants stonden in het Westen bekend als kwalitatief slechte auto's. In werkelijkheid was en is de Trabant echter een robuuste wagen met een vrijwel onverslijtbare techniek die door de eigenaar eenvoudig zelf te onderhouden en te repareren was.
Whilst pages like the German one and Polish one don't even bother to make a remark about the quality of the car (implying its just average). MTMBVD ( talk) 22:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
The article reads like a total damning of the Trabant car. Although it was far from a cutting-edge design at birth, it wasn't "terrible" nor "poorly designed", with especially the former term not being appropriate for a Wikipedia article. The design reflected the characteristics of the GDR at the time, a country in severe debt (both financial and technical, due to war reparations) and which had experienced significant brain drain. References are also of insufficient quality, since the article quotes or cites mostly "pop culture" articles with no particular attention to fairness.
151.45.179.147 (
talk)
17:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)