This page was proposed for deletion by an editor on 25 September 2008. |
It is Hrvatska Dubica and Hrvatska Kosajnica, not Srpska Dubica or Srpska Kostajnica. Why are people such fools to create these names for cities that do not exist? And furthemore, one of those is in R.S., not Croatia. ( LAz17 14:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)).
What the hell is this, for some guy to be erasing the entire page and make it redirect to the R.S.K. page?! This is their IP... 89.172.237.119 ( LAz17 02:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)).
I think that this is the discussion in which it was decided to create this article, which had previously been a category. There was a great deal of discussion, and disagreements on both sides, so this is clearly a controversial area. Therefore, major changes should be made only after seeking consensus, and not be the decision of a single anonymous user; if our IP user wants to log in and use AfD or this talk page to seek consensus, it would be more useful than just trying to remove the article. - FisherQueen ( Talk) 11:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This fascist entity that was never recognised by anyone was made by murder,crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing.It's was an illegal entity.So thise page needs to be deleted.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 08:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
See
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007 July 29#Category:Former Towns of RSK 1991-95.
1) LAz17 created this article on 5 Aug 2007, as he saw that he'll lose the discussion (see link above), and it was obvious that that category would end in deletion. Before any conclusions ("conclusion" was on 6 Aug), he imposed new solution, on 5 Aug.
2) Important to note: user LAz17 has acted through sockpuppets to win this discussion
Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/LAz17 (
user:124.177.49.44).
3) Another sockpuppetry (
user:Semberac,
user:Fkzeljo,
user:Benkovac).
user:Nikola89
[1] (??)
4) This is the same as creating "Towns previously owned by Nazi Germany/Former Towns of Nazi Germany 1939-45", "Former cities of Fascist Italy" (and including French, Croatian, Slovenian, Greek, Ethiopian cities), "Former cities of Bulgarian Empire 1915-1918" (and including Serbian cities in that) etc..
5) All these settlements aren't towns at all. Most of them are villages.
6) Last, but not least. The votes.
Delete - 15
Keep - 7
Listify and delete - 6
Breakdown by users:
Keep (7):
Petri Krohn, LAz17, Koppany, Avala, Nikola Smolenski, TheFEARgod, Peterkingiron
Note: Petri Krohn is banned user
[2], by ARBCOM decision (period of 1 year, starting from 21 Oct 2007).
Keep (unregular votes) (1):
130.194.13.105 (IP's are not registered users, their votes are not valid).
Keep (Puppet votes):
Semberac, FKzeljo, Nikola89
[3](??), Benkovac, 124.177.49.44
Delete (15):
Johnbod, No.13, Duja, DIREKTOR, Digwuren, Zenanarh, Jesuislafete, Postlebury, Piotr Mikołajski, Bbik, Rjecina, Æthelwold, Dr.Gonzo, Kubura, PANONIAN
Delete and listify (6):
Xtifr, Garion96, Tefwik, Asterion, Ante Perkovic, GregorB
This was not supposed to be listified, but deleted. User Kbdank71 made a mistake. Result of discussion was delete. 15 is more than 6. 15 is more than 7+6.
So, we must act as it was decided in voting.
Kubura (
talk)
07:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll restore the tag "speedy deletion", since I've seen no discussion regarding the removal of the tag, and this propagandist article is still here, despite the discussion results (see above). Kubura ( talk) 06:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The Croats want to complete the genocide on the serbs by deleting all our Krajina pages on Wikipedia. This here is merely the start of a bigger project aimed at the erradication of anything to do with Krajina. It has been explicity decided that this page is going to stay. It was decided that the category will be deleted, totally deleted. However, at the same time it was decided that it will be listified instead of deleted. This page is the result of that ruling.
Furthermore I am no sockpuppet holder. This has been determined here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/LAz17 - evidently they are sock puppets of some other guy. They did an IP check and all, so your aspirations of trying to demonize me are false.
Lastly, all those who claim that this was a fascist entity are fascists themselves. This entity, RSK, was a response to fascist hatred against the serbian minority in croatia.
( LAz17 ( talk) 21:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC))
Furthermore, the "category" page was listed as being needed to be "deleted". It was deleted. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the decision. There was no vote on deleting this from a topic, and it therefore remains here. If you want to fight against this existing in a topic, then you should open a new debate for deleting this. However, the former category was deleted, as had been decided. Keep in mind that this entire page could be put back, on the republika srpska krajina main page, if need-be. It is far more efficient and better to have it like this, but as a last resort it technically could exist in the republika srpska krajina page, if in case you guys delete this page, which has no chance of being deleted as long as correct procedures are followed. Of course, you guys are the type that would delete this entire page and then list it as needed for deletion... and you guys might be able to do it that way, but that's not via correct procedures, just like your recent attempt was not under correct procedures either. And one final thing, you speak of some sockpuppets voting there... but you do not mention croat sock puppets like n13 or something like that, who was deleted later on. Clearly you guys have a biase and are not trustworthy in your opinion. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC))
What outright bothers and insults me is that you selectively criticize people. I only reacted to what this person did. Now, I admit that I should not have reacted that way... but in the first place, the original party has been the provocator and the real problem here. If this talk page is not supposed to be about personal views, then could we please clean it up so that we get rid of the anti-serb hatred on here? You seem to support the attacks on serbs because you have not criticized it, but criticized me for reacting to it. Therefore in some ways you are collaborating with these people who are trying to get rid of this needed topic. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)).
Both you guys have some paranoia with this article. You accuse me of supporting secession, when in fact my own views are against secession of this territory because places such as Knin are historically Croatian. Furthermore, Croatia as a state should exist, but it can not feasibly exist without Krajina due to the important infrastructure (highway and railroads) that cross Krajina. Therefore independence is out of the question. It is not related to this article in any way. Your paranoia for some reason makes you think that I support this. Now, I do not condemn the actions of the Serbs in the early 1990s, as they were merely logically reacting to fascist neo-nazis in mainland croatia, who openly denied the genocide and who made constitutional amendments to make the serbs second class citizens, not to mention glorifying the genocide done to the Serbs in World War Two. What is this talk about groups not wanting to be part of Yugoslavia? This article is not about that. I don't care any less if they wanted or did not want to be. Krajina did happen, and that is why we have this topic here. Kubara, please solve your problem to understand that this is not a category. Kubara, you speak of lack of rights in Yugoslavia during the monarchy before world war two. And what is your point here? We know this very well. I personally am disgusted by what happened. But to say that it was an organized operation to systematically suppress croatians by labeling them as communists is very wrong. There is a book called "liar's poker" by michael collon which explains anti-communist purges. In fact, belgrade was purged of communists. In many places across yugoslavia the communists rose to popularity because of the hardships that the people were under. The regime quickly sought to dispose of such people, and most of these organizations were in fact led by serbs. You also ignore that the Croatian Banovina was created after Tzar Aleksandar died, which is proof that the monarchs saw that these lands deserve to break off. (
LAz17 (
talk)
04:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
To address this other guy, Zananarth... your post there smells of propaganda and trolling. You came to post that on purpose to put more fuel to make the fire bigger. Anyone who is not stupid enough to follow what their fellow ethnic politicians claim can easily see that there is a whole host of reasons as to why Yugoslavia broke up and as to why the wars started. To put all the blame on the Serbs is not right at all, and is very controversial. Calling Krajina fascist is more point of view attacks, and to call the expansion of knowledge as support or glorification is absurd. Mr.
SWik78, could you give this user a lesson like you gave me please? Or maybe you prefer to watch as serbs get slammed and won't dare say a word against a fellow croat. (
LAz17 (
talk)
04:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
Should this topic be merged with the Krajina page? This suggest has come up, and I am not sure. It is an unrecognized entity internationally, but here is another page which is somewhat similar... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Kosovo ( LAz17 ( talk) 04:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC))
I request that all people in the voting be monitored for IPs. In previous voting that I have been in I have had the unpleasant experience to deal with some user called No.13 who kept on accusing me of being a sock puppet when in fact he himself was one and got deleted. To prevent sock puppets, lets please check IPs here. (
LAz17 (
talk)
05:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
Currently, this list would be of more help to our readers if placed within the main article on the RSK (at a future time, it could always be moved to a potential new article on the administrative divisions). I have taken the liberty of copying the list to the main article, to show how it would fit there. Feel free to revert me :-) Regards, Ev ( talk) 15:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Truthfully, I already feel sick at the title of this section, and the inflamed words being tossed around and the accusations flung around. This feels more like a chat board discussion, with terms like CroatianNaziFascists want to kill all Serbs, etc etc. In my opinion, we don't have pages describing GreaterSpanish claims on Portuguese towns or FormerFrenchColonialist towns in FrenchColonySudan. Moreover, the history of the towns of RSK is not such an impactful one that that warrants it's own page. I am willing to have calm discussions with anyone willing to speak respectfully. Cheers to you all. -- Jesuislafete ( talk) 01:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
LAz17 was selective in informing about this discussion on deletion.
I've annonunced that I'll inform all sides that participated in the discussion about the deletion of category:Former Towns of RSK 1991-95.
I went cronologically. Suddenly, I've noticed that someone has already informed only one voting side, but not the opponents.
Please, see this. Here's LAz17's edit history.
Special:Contributions/LAz17. See edits from 24 October 2008.
Here, LAz17 invites almost exclusively the users that were on his side (the sole user that LAz17 invited, that previously voted "delete", is Serb, PANONIAN) . See section "Krajina Towns Again"
Petri Krohn,
Koppany,
Xtifr,
Avala,
TheFEARgod,
Nikola Smolenski,
Peterkingiron,
Asterion,
PANONIAN.
Users, that LAz17 informed, previously voted:
Keep: Petri Krohn, TheFEARgod, Nikola Smolenski, Peterkingiron, Avala, Koppany
Delete: PANONIAN
Listify and delete: Asterion, Xtifr
Where're 14 users that voted "delete"? You are not allowed to be selective, LAz17.
Kubura (
talk)
14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I had no idea that there is anything called canvasing. Now I know. I know that in the past people like the banned croat user No.13 did this. It was done against me and this hysteria about this just being about the vote made me do this. Thanks for clarifying that this is not a vote, nor was the former discussion a vote. Now I know wikipedia's policies better and am better prepared to engage in discussion with people who find acceptable articles not acceptable to their personal tastes. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Just a point: "Do not compare RSK to Third Reich. Local Serbs lived here for some 300 years (if I am not mistaken), and were majority there. Saying that they "occupied" their own homes is inappriopriate." I am definetely against deleting this article. Words like "occupation" and "serb invasion" are POV which should be discouraged from wikipedia. Szopen ( talk) 09:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I strongly feel that people's nationalism is blinding them to this topic. They call this entity fascist and all sorts of stuff. The reality is that they are just repeating the rhetoric of their former president Tudjman, and that they are incredibly biased. For example, it is a fact that Tudjman, croatia's president, was a neo-nazi. He was an aggressive holocaust denier, and got booed when the was at the hollocaust museum. He openly said thank god that my wife's not a jew or a serb. Furthermore, he stripped serbs of their rights in 1991. It is a well known fact that Serbs became second class citizens under Tudjman, and people like Kubara aggressively deny this. This is not me saying it, this is human rights watch saying it :
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/c/croatia/crosrb99.pdf
[quote]Despite positive developments in terms of the repeal of some discriminatory legislation, and a generally stable
security situation, Serbs remain second class citizens in Croatia. They are frequently unable to exercise the most basic
rights: to live in their own homes, to receive pensions and social security benefits after a lifetime of work, to be
recognized as citizens in the country of their birth, and in many cases, to return to and live freely in Croatia. As a result
of discriminatory laws, and above all discriminatory practices, Croatian Serbs do not enjoy their civil rights as Croatian
citizens. This is particularly true for Serbs living in the four former United Nations Protected Areas (UNPAs) in Eastern
Slavonia and Western Slavonia, the Krajina, and Banija-Kordun (former Sector North), which formed the self-declared
ARepublika Srpska Krajina,@ and which are the focus of this report.[/quote]
Kubara furthermore supports well known lies, such as that there were fewer serbs in croatia before world war two than after world war two - simple observation of census data shows that he does not know what he is talking about. He suggests also that not only croats in the krajina region being reduced in peacetime, but albanians too - something that is proven totally incorrect according the census data from 1931 to the present.
Kubara is using plainly abnormal ideas about serbs displacing croats in croatia since 1918. We can notice that this is not true, based on the austrohungarian data - the number of serbs has only been decreasing.
He calls chetniks nazi collaborators - something very provocative, because it is well known that the West supported the chetniks and gave various awards to them even after world war two. Anyone who looks into it knows that any collaboration was merely in fighting the partizans, which the chetniks were at war with too.
Kubara also speaks of decline in croat populations in times of peace, between 1945 and 1991. We can notice the exact opposite. It is the serbian populations which decrased, not the croat ones. As a percentage, the croats remained for the most part the same percent in these municipalities between '45 and '91.
This was recorded at my talk page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LAz17#Towns , and is outright proof of what kind of individuals we are dealing. We are dealing with holocaust deniers and people. They know very well how the serbs suffered at their genocide, and that is why they do not want any knowledge about this to be expanded. It is in their interest to totally remove as much information on the former krajina region as they can, and to remove as much information about serbs in Croatia too. Wikipedia is about knowledge, and spreading knowledge. If people have a problem with geography, as these people here do, then that is too bad for them. (
LAz17 (
talk)
18:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)).
LAz17. First, learn the nick of the person you're discussing with. I'm Kubura, not Kubara.
Tuđman "neo-nazi"? Dear child, do you know what those words mean? You obviously don't.
"he stripped serbs of their rights in 1991". What rights? Tell us, what are those "stripped rights"? We want references, not just "he stripped" and "it says that" in some gibberish magazine.
"human rights watch". Of course, they have to make up things. That way they'll get more money and spend their time in Croatia, having vacation for free. That way they don't have to go into the countries of the Third World, where real problems with human rights violations exist. You know, in countries where dangerous diseases. Why should they risk their health in the stinking hotel with tze-tze flies, yellow fever, malaria, or having in mind bird-sized mosquitos, knowing that AIDS is widespread disease in these countries? In countries where someone'll kill them for a chocolate bar? Instead, they say lies about Croatia and spend their time in the country that's more safe and healthier than any western country.
"Missing Serbs" were colonized from passive areas of Croatia into fertile areas in Vojvodina (Croats weren't, or in unproportionally smaller numbers). Before WW2 and after WW2. Kolonizacija. Do you remember? (those Serbs settled before WW2 were during Hungarian occupation expelled from Bačka; these were known as "bačke izbjeglice". Some of these Serbs have returned to areas of their origin, including southern central Croatia, around Srb, Benkovac... You can find that term in the WW2 literature from former Yugoslavia).
Further, where're your references?
Finally, learn to respect the territories of internationally recognized countries. Don't use Wikipedia to spread the toponyms invented by the country that occupied the 1/3 of territory of Republic of Croatia. Don't spread the terminology of an expansionist regime. Occupied areas of Croatia are not the region called "Krajina". That's not a region at all, but several different regions. LAz17, that's Croatia. Live with that.
Kubura (
talk)
22:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Okej Kube brate. Dal je uredu da te zovem Kub il Kuba?
Tudjman stripped the serbs of various rights - like using the cyrillic alphabet, and many other things. He was an active genocide denier and wrote that genocide is a natural phenomenon that should not astonish people.
Excuse me, but Yuogslavia was the third world, a leader of it. Furthermore, those human rights organizations are accredited and not bogus organizations. You are clearly a messed up person if you believe those stories about the third world. I know people who have gone to volunteer and do research there, and they are VERY safe over there, safer than the locals actually. Actually we can see census data show the region of krajina had lost lots of people, both serbs and croats actually. It's also well known that serbs have gone to vojvodina, but many more have gone to vojvodina than have gone back to croatia. Far more.
What is your problem to accuse me of not regonizing countries? I recognize Croatia. Where do you have the idea that I do not? Krajina is a region. It depends on which region we talk about, because it refer to a few. We all know that Krajian in this discussion refers to the RSK entity which was doomed from the outset of its creation. (
LAz17 (
talk)
05:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)).
Cyrillic alphabet? What do you want to say? That every person in every part of Croatia must know to read Serbian Cyrillic? Sorry, to respect minority rights doesn't mean that majority and sole constitutive nation in his own country has to be terrorized by requests (better to say:izvoljevanja) of a certain minority (minority, that was privileged in socialist Yugoslavia).
"Genocide denier"? That's very heavy word. Learn a difference between mythomania and scientific research (with purpose: fighting against abuse of victims of genocides). Abuse of those data is a prelude to military aggression. You cannot say: in Iraq 40 millions Serbs were killed, and every person that wants to check that is "genocide denier". For your further claims, give us references.
Yugoslavia "a Third World country"? Speak for yourself. SR Croatia and SR Slovenia were like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland.
Yugoslavia "leader of Third World"? Maybe to the countries of British Commonwealth? Does having so many Third World countries from Africa and Asia makes United Kingdom "a Third World country"? Learn geography.
Third World so good? Yes, of course, Europeans and Americans are staying in lines in front of transoceanic ships. Every day the Coast Guards of Sudan and Kenya has to deal with illegal immigrants from Europe that search better life in those countries. Rwanda and DR Congo regularly send humanitary help in food and medicines into France and Germany, since those countries starve and suffer from malaria, yellow fever, explosive rate of AIDS spreading...
Region of Krajina that you're speaking about, doesn't exist at all. Political forgery of greaterserbianists, created in order to lay claims on that territory as Serb territory.
Serbs gone to Vojvodina? Of course, I've told that. Serbs were colonized into fertile plains, in former German households (after WW2), or in completely newly created villages, near Croat and Hungarian villages and towns, to change the ethnic structure of those areas (creating Serb majority, or decreasing the percentage of non-Serb nationalities). Still, the areas in Croatia, that those Serbs left, haven't changed their previous ethnic structure (Croats weren't colonized into those villages).
Kubura (
talk)
21:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The subdivisions of RSK are the municipalities of 1981 and 1991 census. I included only municipalities in this page when it first came. Now, the issue is that there are many more croat municipalities now. Therefore we have to identify exactly which municipalities are to be used. I'll get on this task. In fact I think that I will go about making some map. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Problem solved. Geography of the Former Republic of Serbian Krajina Now we can get about deleting this page and work on improving that other one. ( LAz17 ( talk) 23:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Interesting. LAz17 always declares problem as "solved" by creating the new article (and problems is: article for speedy deletion!!).
Problems is, that such articles shouldn't exist at all! And LAz17 calmly spams with new articles. This topic is seriously problematic and controversial. This kind of articles shouldn't exist at all; they are propaganda of occupation of other countries and promotion of expansionistic behaviour. LAz17 shouldn't play with fire, and admins are supposed to recognise this.
Also, which towns and "towns" LAz17 counts here? Every village that he declared as "town"? Or should here go the towns that greaterserbianists wanted to occupy (but they haven't managed to do so, although they laid their claims on those cities and had them as military goal)? You know, the towns that Radio Petrova Gora openly declared as "not Croatian".
Kubura (
talk)
00:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about? We had the discussion where it was decided that this will stay. If you have a problem then go through the correct way to get this deleted. I have no idea what petrova gora radio is, and I feel that you need to accept that these articles in no way threaten croatia in any way, nor do they aim to do any harm of any sort to croatia. You seem to be influenced by nationalism, rather extreme nationalism, perhaps hate too... and so you can not stand the sight of these articles. Well, that is not my problem. Go through the proper ways to delete this if you want. Stop spamming the talk page. ( LAz17 ( talk) 16:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)).
Everyone, please, before discussing this new entry -and all Wikipedia articles- take a deep breath and read carefully our talk page guidelines and our No Personal Attacks policy: comment on content, not on the contributor. Keep on topic. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views – article talk pages are not fora to discuss political issues. Keep discussions focussed on how to improve the article's content (and that of Wikipedia as a whole).
Take the time to review again our No Original Research and Verifiability policies: material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source. – Cite your sources.
Take the time to review again our Neutral Point of View policy: all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias.
I have been thinking a lot about this stuff here in the last several days... the more I think about the more silly it seems - this was just a list of settlements. What is needed is a list of real municipalities, not settlements. Therefore the step should be to make a list of municipalities as has been suggested here a while back. ( LAz17 ( talk) 04:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)).
This page was proposed for deletion by an editor on 25 September 2008. |
It is Hrvatska Dubica and Hrvatska Kosajnica, not Srpska Dubica or Srpska Kostajnica. Why are people such fools to create these names for cities that do not exist? And furthemore, one of those is in R.S., not Croatia. ( LAz17 14:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)).
What the hell is this, for some guy to be erasing the entire page and make it redirect to the R.S.K. page?! This is their IP... 89.172.237.119 ( LAz17 02:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)).
I think that this is the discussion in which it was decided to create this article, which had previously been a category. There was a great deal of discussion, and disagreements on both sides, so this is clearly a controversial area. Therefore, major changes should be made only after seeking consensus, and not be the decision of a single anonymous user; if our IP user wants to log in and use AfD or this talk page to seek consensus, it would be more useful than just trying to remove the article. - FisherQueen ( Talk) 11:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This fascist entity that was never recognised by anyone was made by murder,crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing.It's was an illegal entity.So thise page needs to be deleted.-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 08:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
See
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007 July 29#Category:Former Towns of RSK 1991-95.
1) LAz17 created this article on 5 Aug 2007, as he saw that he'll lose the discussion (see link above), and it was obvious that that category would end in deletion. Before any conclusions ("conclusion" was on 6 Aug), he imposed new solution, on 5 Aug.
2) Important to note: user LAz17 has acted through sockpuppets to win this discussion
Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/LAz17 (
user:124.177.49.44).
3) Another sockpuppetry (
user:Semberac,
user:Fkzeljo,
user:Benkovac).
user:Nikola89
[1] (??)
4) This is the same as creating "Towns previously owned by Nazi Germany/Former Towns of Nazi Germany 1939-45", "Former cities of Fascist Italy" (and including French, Croatian, Slovenian, Greek, Ethiopian cities), "Former cities of Bulgarian Empire 1915-1918" (and including Serbian cities in that) etc..
5) All these settlements aren't towns at all. Most of them are villages.
6) Last, but not least. The votes.
Delete - 15
Keep - 7
Listify and delete - 6
Breakdown by users:
Keep (7):
Petri Krohn, LAz17, Koppany, Avala, Nikola Smolenski, TheFEARgod, Peterkingiron
Note: Petri Krohn is banned user
[2], by ARBCOM decision (period of 1 year, starting from 21 Oct 2007).
Keep (unregular votes) (1):
130.194.13.105 (IP's are not registered users, their votes are not valid).
Keep (Puppet votes):
Semberac, FKzeljo, Nikola89
[3](??), Benkovac, 124.177.49.44
Delete (15):
Johnbod, No.13, Duja, DIREKTOR, Digwuren, Zenanarh, Jesuislafete, Postlebury, Piotr Mikołajski, Bbik, Rjecina, Æthelwold, Dr.Gonzo, Kubura, PANONIAN
Delete and listify (6):
Xtifr, Garion96, Tefwik, Asterion, Ante Perkovic, GregorB
This was not supposed to be listified, but deleted. User Kbdank71 made a mistake. Result of discussion was delete. 15 is more than 6. 15 is more than 7+6.
So, we must act as it was decided in voting.
Kubura (
talk)
07:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll restore the tag "speedy deletion", since I've seen no discussion regarding the removal of the tag, and this propagandist article is still here, despite the discussion results (see above). Kubura ( talk) 06:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The Croats want to complete the genocide on the serbs by deleting all our Krajina pages on Wikipedia. This here is merely the start of a bigger project aimed at the erradication of anything to do with Krajina. It has been explicity decided that this page is going to stay. It was decided that the category will be deleted, totally deleted. However, at the same time it was decided that it will be listified instead of deleted. This page is the result of that ruling.
Furthermore I am no sockpuppet holder. This has been determined here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/LAz17 - evidently they are sock puppets of some other guy. They did an IP check and all, so your aspirations of trying to demonize me are false.
Lastly, all those who claim that this was a fascist entity are fascists themselves. This entity, RSK, was a response to fascist hatred against the serbian minority in croatia.
( LAz17 ( talk) 21:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC))
Furthermore, the "category" page was listed as being needed to be "deleted". It was deleted. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the decision. There was no vote on deleting this from a topic, and it therefore remains here. If you want to fight against this existing in a topic, then you should open a new debate for deleting this. However, the former category was deleted, as had been decided. Keep in mind that this entire page could be put back, on the republika srpska krajina main page, if need-be. It is far more efficient and better to have it like this, but as a last resort it technically could exist in the republika srpska krajina page, if in case you guys delete this page, which has no chance of being deleted as long as correct procedures are followed. Of course, you guys are the type that would delete this entire page and then list it as needed for deletion... and you guys might be able to do it that way, but that's not via correct procedures, just like your recent attempt was not under correct procedures either. And one final thing, you speak of some sockpuppets voting there... but you do not mention croat sock puppets like n13 or something like that, who was deleted later on. Clearly you guys have a biase and are not trustworthy in your opinion. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC))
What outright bothers and insults me is that you selectively criticize people. I only reacted to what this person did. Now, I admit that I should not have reacted that way... but in the first place, the original party has been the provocator and the real problem here. If this talk page is not supposed to be about personal views, then could we please clean it up so that we get rid of the anti-serb hatred on here? You seem to support the attacks on serbs because you have not criticized it, but criticized me for reacting to it. Therefore in some ways you are collaborating with these people who are trying to get rid of this needed topic. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)).
Both you guys have some paranoia with this article. You accuse me of supporting secession, when in fact my own views are against secession of this territory because places such as Knin are historically Croatian. Furthermore, Croatia as a state should exist, but it can not feasibly exist without Krajina due to the important infrastructure (highway and railroads) that cross Krajina. Therefore independence is out of the question. It is not related to this article in any way. Your paranoia for some reason makes you think that I support this. Now, I do not condemn the actions of the Serbs in the early 1990s, as they were merely logically reacting to fascist neo-nazis in mainland croatia, who openly denied the genocide and who made constitutional amendments to make the serbs second class citizens, not to mention glorifying the genocide done to the Serbs in World War Two. What is this talk about groups not wanting to be part of Yugoslavia? This article is not about that. I don't care any less if they wanted or did not want to be. Krajina did happen, and that is why we have this topic here. Kubara, please solve your problem to understand that this is not a category. Kubara, you speak of lack of rights in Yugoslavia during the monarchy before world war two. And what is your point here? We know this very well. I personally am disgusted by what happened. But to say that it was an organized operation to systematically suppress croatians by labeling them as communists is very wrong. There is a book called "liar's poker" by michael collon which explains anti-communist purges. In fact, belgrade was purged of communists. In many places across yugoslavia the communists rose to popularity because of the hardships that the people were under. The regime quickly sought to dispose of such people, and most of these organizations were in fact led by serbs. You also ignore that the Croatian Banovina was created after Tzar Aleksandar died, which is proof that the monarchs saw that these lands deserve to break off. (
LAz17 (
talk)
04:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
To address this other guy, Zananarth... your post there smells of propaganda and trolling. You came to post that on purpose to put more fuel to make the fire bigger. Anyone who is not stupid enough to follow what their fellow ethnic politicians claim can easily see that there is a whole host of reasons as to why Yugoslavia broke up and as to why the wars started. To put all the blame on the Serbs is not right at all, and is very controversial. Calling Krajina fascist is more point of view attacks, and to call the expansion of knowledge as support or glorification is absurd. Mr.
SWik78, could you give this user a lesson like you gave me please? Or maybe you prefer to watch as serbs get slammed and won't dare say a word against a fellow croat. (
LAz17 (
talk)
04:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
Should this topic be merged with the Krajina page? This suggest has come up, and I am not sure. It is an unrecognized entity internationally, but here is another page which is somewhat similar... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Kosovo ( LAz17 ( talk) 04:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC))
I request that all people in the voting be monitored for IPs. In previous voting that I have been in I have had the unpleasant experience to deal with some user called No.13 who kept on accusing me of being a sock puppet when in fact he himself was one and got deleted. To prevent sock puppets, lets please check IPs here. (
LAz17 (
talk)
05:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC))
Currently, this list would be of more help to our readers if placed within the main article on the RSK (at a future time, it could always be moved to a potential new article on the administrative divisions). I have taken the liberty of copying the list to the main article, to show how it would fit there. Feel free to revert me :-) Regards, Ev ( talk) 15:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Truthfully, I already feel sick at the title of this section, and the inflamed words being tossed around and the accusations flung around. This feels more like a chat board discussion, with terms like CroatianNaziFascists want to kill all Serbs, etc etc. In my opinion, we don't have pages describing GreaterSpanish claims on Portuguese towns or FormerFrenchColonialist towns in FrenchColonySudan. Moreover, the history of the towns of RSK is not such an impactful one that that warrants it's own page. I am willing to have calm discussions with anyone willing to speak respectfully. Cheers to you all. -- Jesuislafete ( talk) 01:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
LAz17 was selective in informing about this discussion on deletion.
I've annonunced that I'll inform all sides that participated in the discussion about the deletion of category:Former Towns of RSK 1991-95.
I went cronologically. Suddenly, I've noticed that someone has already informed only one voting side, but not the opponents.
Please, see this. Here's LAz17's edit history.
Special:Contributions/LAz17. See edits from 24 October 2008.
Here, LAz17 invites almost exclusively the users that were on his side (the sole user that LAz17 invited, that previously voted "delete", is Serb, PANONIAN) . See section "Krajina Towns Again"
Petri Krohn,
Koppany,
Xtifr,
Avala,
TheFEARgod,
Nikola Smolenski,
Peterkingiron,
Asterion,
PANONIAN.
Users, that LAz17 informed, previously voted:
Keep: Petri Krohn, TheFEARgod, Nikola Smolenski, Peterkingiron, Avala, Koppany
Delete: PANONIAN
Listify and delete: Asterion, Xtifr
Where're 14 users that voted "delete"? You are not allowed to be selective, LAz17.
Kubura (
talk)
14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I had no idea that there is anything called canvasing. Now I know. I know that in the past people like the banned croat user No.13 did this. It was done against me and this hysteria about this just being about the vote made me do this. Thanks for clarifying that this is not a vote, nor was the former discussion a vote. Now I know wikipedia's policies better and am better prepared to engage in discussion with people who find acceptable articles not acceptable to their personal tastes. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Just a point: "Do not compare RSK to Third Reich. Local Serbs lived here for some 300 years (if I am not mistaken), and were majority there. Saying that they "occupied" their own homes is inappriopriate." I am definetely against deleting this article. Words like "occupation" and "serb invasion" are POV which should be discouraged from wikipedia. Szopen ( talk) 09:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I strongly feel that people's nationalism is blinding them to this topic. They call this entity fascist and all sorts of stuff. The reality is that they are just repeating the rhetoric of their former president Tudjman, and that they are incredibly biased. For example, it is a fact that Tudjman, croatia's president, was a neo-nazi. He was an aggressive holocaust denier, and got booed when the was at the hollocaust museum. He openly said thank god that my wife's not a jew or a serb. Furthermore, he stripped serbs of their rights in 1991. It is a well known fact that Serbs became second class citizens under Tudjman, and people like Kubara aggressively deny this. This is not me saying it, this is human rights watch saying it :
http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/c/croatia/crosrb99.pdf
[quote]Despite positive developments in terms of the repeal of some discriminatory legislation, and a generally stable
security situation, Serbs remain second class citizens in Croatia. They are frequently unable to exercise the most basic
rights: to live in their own homes, to receive pensions and social security benefits after a lifetime of work, to be
recognized as citizens in the country of their birth, and in many cases, to return to and live freely in Croatia. As a result
of discriminatory laws, and above all discriminatory practices, Croatian Serbs do not enjoy their civil rights as Croatian
citizens. This is particularly true for Serbs living in the four former United Nations Protected Areas (UNPAs) in Eastern
Slavonia and Western Slavonia, the Krajina, and Banija-Kordun (former Sector North), which formed the self-declared
ARepublika Srpska Krajina,@ and which are the focus of this report.[/quote]
Kubara furthermore supports well known lies, such as that there were fewer serbs in croatia before world war two than after world war two - simple observation of census data shows that he does not know what he is talking about. He suggests also that not only croats in the krajina region being reduced in peacetime, but albanians too - something that is proven totally incorrect according the census data from 1931 to the present.
Kubara is using plainly abnormal ideas about serbs displacing croats in croatia since 1918. We can notice that this is not true, based on the austrohungarian data - the number of serbs has only been decreasing.
He calls chetniks nazi collaborators - something very provocative, because it is well known that the West supported the chetniks and gave various awards to them even after world war two. Anyone who looks into it knows that any collaboration was merely in fighting the partizans, which the chetniks were at war with too.
Kubara also speaks of decline in croat populations in times of peace, between 1945 and 1991. We can notice the exact opposite. It is the serbian populations which decrased, not the croat ones. As a percentage, the croats remained for the most part the same percent in these municipalities between '45 and '91.
This was recorded at my talk page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LAz17#Towns , and is outright proof of what kind of individuals we are dealing. We are dealing with holocaust deniers and people. They know very well how the serbs suffered at their genocide, and that is why they do not want any knowledge about this to be expanded. It is in their interest to totally remove as much information on the former krajina region as they can, and to remove as much information about serbs in Croatia too. Wikipedia is about knowledge, and spreading knowledge. If people have a problem with geography, as these people here do, then that is too bad for them. (
LAz17 (
talk)
18:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)).
LAz17. First, learn the nick of the person you're discussing with. I'm Kubura, not Kubara.
Tuđman "neo-nazi"? Dear child, do you know what those words mean? You obviously don't.
"he stripped serbs of their rights in 1991". What rights? Tell us, what are those "stripped rights"? We want references, not just "he stripped" and "it says that" in some gibberish magazine.
"human rights watch". Of course, they have to make up things. That way they'll get more money and spend their time in Croatia, having vacation for free. That way they don't have to go into the countries of the Third World, where real problems with human rights violations exist. You know, in countries where dangerous diseases. Why should they risk their health in the stinking hotel with tze-tze flies, yellow fever, malaria, or having in mind bird-sized mosquitos, knowing that AIDS is widespread disease in these countries? In countries where someone'll kill them for a chocolate bar? Instead, they say lies about Croatia and spend their time in the country that's more safe and healthier than any western country.
"Missing Serbs" were colonized from passive areas of Croatia into fertile areas in Vojvodina (Croats weren't, or in unproportionally smaller numbers). Before WW2 and after WW2. Kolonizacija. Do you remember? (those Serbs settled before WW2 were during Hungarian occupation expelled from Bačka; these were known as "bačke izbjeglice". Some of these Serbs have returned to areas of their origin, including southern central Croatia, around Srb, Benkovac... You can find that term in the WW2 literature from former Yugoslavia).
Further, where're your references?
Finally, learn to respect the territories of internationally recognized countries. Don't use Wikipedia to spread the toponyms invented by the country that occupied the 1/3 of territory of Republic of Croatia. Don't spread the terminology of an expansionist regime. Occupied areas of Croatia are not the region called "Krajina". That's not a region at all, but several different regions. LAz17, that's Croatia. Live with that.
Kubura (
talk)
22:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Okej Kube brate. Dal je uredu da te zovem Kub il Kuba?
Tudjman stripped the serbs of various rights - like using the cyrillic alphabet, and many other things. He was an active genocide denier and wrote that genocide is a natural phenomenon that should not astonish people.
Excuse me, but Yuogslavia was the third world, a leader of it. Furthermore, those human rights organizations are accredited and not bogus organizations. You are clearly a messed up person if you believe those stories about the third world. I know people who have gone to volunteer and do research there, and they are VERY safe over there, safer than the locals actually. Actually we can see census data show the region of krajina had lost lots of people, both serbs and croats actually. It's also well known that serbs have gone to vojvodina, but many more have gone to vojvodina than have gone back to croatia. Far more.
What is your problem to accuse me of not regonizing countries? I recognize Croatia. Where do you have the idea that I do not? Krajina is a region. It depends on which region we talk about, because it refer to a few. We all know that Krajian in this discussion refers to the RSK entity which was doomed from the outset of its creation. (
LAz17 (
talk)
05:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)).
Cyrillic alphabet? What do you want to say? That every person in every part of Croatia must know to read Serbian Cyrillic? Sorry, to respect minority rights doesn't mean that majority and sole constitutive nation in his own country has to be terrorized by requests (better to say:izvoljevanja) of a certain minority (minority, that was privileged in socialist Yugoslavia).
"Genocide denier"? That's very heavy word. Learn a difference between mythomania and scientific research (with purpose: fighting against abuse of victims of genocides). Abuse of those data is a prelude to military aggression. You cannot say: in Iraq 40 millions Serbs were killed, and every person that wants to check that is "genocide denier". For your further claims, give us references.
Yugoslavia "a Third World country"? Speak for yourself. SR Croatia and SR Slovenia were like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland.
Yugoslavia "leader of Third World"? Maybe to the countries of British Commonwealth? Does having so many Third World countries from Africa and Asia makes United Kingdom "a Third World country"? Learn geography.
Third World so good? Yes, of course, Europeans and Americans are staying in lines in front of transoceanic ships. Every day the Coast Guards of Sudan and Kenya has to deal with illegal immigrants from Europe that search better life in those countries. Rwanda and DR Congo regularly send humanitary help in food and medicines into France and Germany, since those countries starve and suffer from malaria, yellow fever, explosive rate of AIDS spreading...
Region of Krajina that you're speaking about, doesn't exist at all. Political forgery of greaterserbianists, created in order to lay claims on that territory as Serb territory.
Serbs gone to Vojvodina? Of course, I've told that. Serbs were colonized into fertile plains, in former German households (after WW2), or in completely newly created villages, near Croat and Hungarian villages and towns, to change the ethnic structure of those areas (creating Serb majority, or decreasing the percentage of non-Serb nationalities). Still, the areas in Croatia, that those Serbs left, haven't changed their previous ethnic structure (Croats weren't colonized into those villages).
Kubura (
talk)
21:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The subdivisions of RSK are the municipalities of 1981 and 1991 census. I included only municipalities in this page when it first came. Now, the issue is that there are many more croat municipalities now. Therefore we have to identify exactly which municipalities are to be used. I'll get on this task. In fact I think that I will go about making some map. ( LAz17 ( talk) 21:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Problem solved. Geography of the Former Republic of Serbian Krajina Now we can get about deleting this page and work on improving that other one. ( LAz17 ( talk) 23:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)).
Interesting. LAz17 always declares problem as "solved" by creating the new article (and problems is: article for speedy deletion!!).
Problems is, that such articles shouldn't exist at all! And LAz17 calmly spams with new articles. This topic is seriously problematic and controversial. This kind of articles shouldn't exist at all; they are propaganda of occupation of other countries and promotion of expansionistic behaviour. LAz17 shouldn't play with fire, and admins are supposed to recognise this.
Also, which towns and "towns" LAz17 counts here? Every village that he declared as "town"? Or should here go the towns that greaterserbianists wanted to occupy (but they haven't managed to do so, although they laid their claims on those cities and had them as military goal)? You know, the towns that Radio Petrova Gora openly declared as "not Croatian".
Kubura (
talk)
00:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about? We had the discussion where it was decided that this will stay. If you have a problem then go through the correct way to get this deleted. I have no idea what petrova gora radio is, and I feel that you need to accept that these articles in no way threaten croatia in any way, nor do they aim to do any harm of any sort to croatia. You seem to be influenced by nationalism, rather extreme nationalism, perhaps hate too... and so you can not stand the sight of these articles. Well, that is not my problem. Go through the proper ways to delete this if you want. Stop spamming the talk page. ( LAz17 ( talk) 16:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)).
Everyone, please, before discussing this new entry -and all Wikipedia articles- take a deep breath and read carefully our talk page guidelines and our No Personal Attacks policy: comment on content, not on the contributor. Keep on topic. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views – article talk pages are not fora to discuss political issues. Keep discussions focussed on how to improve the article's content (and that of Wikipedia as a whole).
Take the time to review again our No Original Research and Verifiability policies: material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source. – Cite your sources.
Take the time to review again our Neutral Point of View policy: all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias.
I have been thinking a lot about this stuff here in the last several days... the more I think about the more silly it seems - this was just a list of settlements. What is needed is a list of real municipalities, not settlements. Therefore the step should be to make a list of municipalities as has been suggested here a while back. ( LAz17 ( talk) 04:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)).