![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
July 9th, 51 KB overall, 33 KB prose Sandy 05:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
September 16th, 54 KB overall, 34KB prose. Sandy 00:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
October 3rd, 61KB overall, 36KB prose. Sandy 16:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
October 25, 63 67 KB overall, 36 37 KB prose.
Sandy (
Talk)
20:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
October 29, 71KB overall, 40 KB prose. Sandy ( Talk) 16:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
December 18, Created History of Tourette syndrome; 61KB overall, 33KB prose. Sandy ( Talk) 23:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Include the collage, or not. Some argue that nothing can be learned about Tourette syndrome from looking at a still image, that is looks unprofessional, and that it is so aspecific that it could be just as well on any other article. Others argue that it conveys that Tourette's is a common condition among people that are young, old, male, female, of all races, and provides an alternative to the "moldy old photos of chaps in powdered wigs hundreds of years ago," and that the US Dept of Health and Human services commissioned it to help defray fear and prejudice directed at those who have Tourette's. citation needed IMO, the best of all worlds would be for someone to find a better, contemporary depiction, but I don't see the harm in having an inoffensive image, and as pointed out by AOL anon, it does potentially do some good in conveying current info about people with TS. Sandy 19:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Speculation, most likely a joke, and thoroughly discussed at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome: should be reverted whenever added here, to keep this article to encyclopedic content. Sandy 02:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Although the term unvoluntary is well-defined in this article and in the literature, it is frequently changed to involuntary here, perhaps by well-meaning editors who believe it is a typo, and don't read the text.
Please restore it whenever it is removed, as it is the correct usage. I will add an inline note. Sandy ( Talk) 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Content is often added here: is included already, along with contemporaries, at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome, this article discusses highly notables such as Mozart and Johnson, with others summarized in the daughter article. Sandy ( Talk) 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss the value of adding OMIM and the Diseases database to the infobox.
On
the diseases database, the information is of little value because, although the DSM-IV-TR was published six seven years ago, they still show the old DSM-IV criteria, and they contain nothing else not already covered in the article. I'd like to delete them from the infobox, if no one disagrees. They also claim TS increases risk for suicide: I'd love to see that data, since I've never come across it.
OMIM is far more problematic, as it is rife with blatantly inaccurate information. I'll list just some, starting at the top, until I give up:
Moving on from there, we find the source of the problems: the OMIM appears to rely heavily on old Comings' research. VERY little recent or well-accepted research is included here, and there is a preponderance of old Comings' research. The last edits made to the OMIM database are a year old: I could go on detailing the problems, but I suggest we delete these two entries; at best, they aren't helpful, at worst, they are misleading. Sandy ( Talk) 18:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a difference? Would it be better to be consistent? - Samsara ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
What a wonderful quality article. Great job to all those involved, and I'm sorry I couldn't weigh in before it got FA. :) - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding deletion of referenced text twice, copied from:
The information I deleted from the Tourette syndrome site was not reliable information. In addition to having TS, I am a certified expert in the field, having worked extensively with the National Institute of Mental Health; as well as an accomplished attorney. I'm not an ignorant 14 year old out to destroy the credibility of the site; I'm trying, rather, to enhance it's credibility. Anyone with TS will tell you, the dogmatic assertion that "reassurances alone are usually sufficient treatment" is both offensive and factually inaccurate. Please dictate as you wish; I shall leave Wikipedia and seek out a more competent source of information that is not beleaguered by idiosyncratic monologues.
hutchesc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hutchesc ( talk • contribs)
There's a lot to sort out here, Immora. Digging in:
By the way, Immora, thank you for fixing that horrendous template that has been bugging me forever :-) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm new to editing beyond minor spelling corrections, so I don't know what the procedure is on this, but I would strongly suggest that this page be protected. I happened to Alt-X into this thing and of course it was loaded with profanity. Given the nature of the article, I'm kind of surprised the page wasn't protected long ago for precisely that reason. 66.236.8.30 03:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Requested semi-protection because of all the vandalism this month, especially Feb 12. Declined for now. "There is not enough recent activity to justify protection at this time. Much of the recent vandalism was by one user. Give it a day or two - if vandalism increases or continues at same levels 12 February for more than 1 day, then tje answer will probsbly be different. --Robdurbar." I thought yesterday had three or more users vandalising. Anyway, hopefully it won't continue. Immora 17:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Early versions of this article (like [2]) say information is from NIH ( http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/tourette.html). If this means actual content, they should be cited specially as a source. It is legal to use copy public domain material from the government outright, but all sources of content should be attributed. I'm not sure what that remark meant, though, or whether the article still uses the same info. Superm401 - Talk 04:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Neither the old Wiki version nor the K12 seem to come from NIH - K12 is a Wiki mirror. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The article text says "According to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ( DSM-IV-TR)". Strictly speaking, this is "the text-revision of the fourth edition of ..." or perhaps more succinctly "the revised fourth edition of ...".
According to Schapiro (2002), the controversial "marked distress" clause not present in DSM-III-R. The Summary of Practice-Relevant Changes to the DSM-IV-TR confirms this as an addition in DSM-IV and explains its removal. The article text says "Previous editions of the DSM included" this clause. If only the unrevised DSM-IV had the clause, then the plural "editions" is erroneous.
The above Summary document says that this clause "was added to the criteria sets of a majority of disorders in DSM-IV (Tic Disorders among them) in order to emphasize that a mental disorder should not be diagnosed in trivial cases (i.e., when the disturbance is so mild that it has little impact on the patient)". Given the controversy and the nature of how the addition occurred, I wonder if any authority on TS supported the clause. Schapiro claims that many ignored it. So, if this clause was merely a (more or less) careless addition to one revision of the manual, in use between 1994 and 2000, how important is it today? Does the discussion of the clause just muddy the waters for the reader by mentioning an expired controversy? If still of historical interest, could it be moved elsewhere in the article (or daughter article). Or is this mistaken clause still causing problems today? Colin° Talk 17:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
That clarifies things. I noticed that Schapiro (2002) mentions the controversy but not the revised edition (published 2000). What I didn't want was some old argument, of interest only to historical pedants, to confuse the current diagnostic criteria. I still wonder if it would be better for the lead paragraph of this section to concentrate on the actual criteria and move any erroneous criteria to a later paragraph. BTW: I've just spotted that the DSM change is mentioned again in the History section, where it uses a different and weaker source.
I've searched for the text of the DSM-IV-TR criteria and found Gilles de la Tourette’s syndrome and its impact in the UK, which I assume has a faithful transcription. Comparing this with the text in the article, I find two minor issues:
The precise wording of a definition or set of diagnostic criteria is important and no doubt agonised over by the experts. Should this article just quote all four of the criteria verbatim? It is quoting or using much of the text already. The reader would then have confidence that these weren't just an interpretation of the criteria.
I've also found that the DSM-III-R had 21 as the cut-off age rather than 18. Is the significance of this worth mentioning? Colin° Talk 18:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks for answering my tedious questions; sorry if they've cropped up before. If found several old discussion on DSM copyright, the main one being Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive57#DSM-IV-TR Copyright question. The article Dissociative identity disorder has handled this quite explicitly if inelegantly. Several editors commented that paraphrasing isn't ideal as it leads to errors and weakened definitions. It does, however, look like we can't quote the 100 or so words in the definition. This is galling since the definition is the result of review and consensus so to claim ownership of the results is a bit rich. "The primary purpose of the DSM is to facilitate communication" – hm?
Re: the age limit. You are obviously a better judge on whether this is important, esp. compared to the "significant distress" issue. The latter sounds like it is actually deserves more attention in the article than currently. That Summary document contains a fairly lame excuse for the introduction of the criterion. Colin° Talk 22:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent addition by an anon diff and feel compelled to provide a rationale, lest it appear I'm enforcing "ownership" of the article. As for late onset of TS, Chouinard and Ford (2000) studied 411 adults and found only seven could be diagnosed as having a true idiopathic, new-onset tic disorder, which is not defined as TS; rather, they maintain
The clinical evidence suggests that adult tic disorders are part of a range of illness that includes childhood onset tics and Tourette's syndrome.
As for the remaining additions: in the "Characteristics" section, the statement altered to read "the tics of Tourette's are sometimes temporarily suppressible and are at times preceded by a premonitory urge, although sometimes they occur spontaneously and without any warning" is, as such, no longer supported by the cited reference. The inserted paragraph "Although in some cases, for certain tics, the premonitory urge is entirely absent..." is unsourced and, quite frankly, sounds unlikely as it was presented; that is, however, just my humble opinion.
I don't mean to attack the validity of these additions, but please cite them or at least discuss further if you wish to re-add, so that other editors may verify them. Thanks, Fvasconcellos 23:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Riana dzasta for semi-protecting the article. My previous request was denied by a different person, and I was intending to request again after yesterday's fresh increase. The daily vandalism got tiring, and it's been bothering me that people are so immature and negative about TS. Anyway, thanks again. -- Immora 06:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I've attempted to rationalise the use of archive.org. The general practice on Wikipedia seems to be that web links do not need to be linked to a fixed archive snapshot. An "accessed" date is required, which could be used with a web archive to retrieve a version of the document should the link become dead or radically change. This has already happened on a number of links used by this article. The changes I've made are:
I hope this is OK and I haven't broken the existing careful punctuation. Colin° Talk 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
July 9th, 51 KB overall, 33 KB prose Sandy 05:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
September 16th, 54 KB overall, 34KB prose. Sandy 00:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
October 3rd, 61KB overall, 36KB prose. Sandy 16:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
October 25, 63 67 KB overall, 36 37 KB prose.
Sandy (
Talk)
20:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
October 29, 71KB overall, 40 KB prose. Sandy ( Talk) 16:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
December 18, Created History of Tourette syndrome; 61KB overall, 33KB prose. Sandy ( Talk) 23:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Include the collage, or not. Some argue that nothing can be learned about Tourette syndrome from looking at a still image, that is looks unprofessional, and that it is so aspecific that it could be just as well on any other article. Others argue that it conveys that Tourette's is a common condition among people that are young, old, male, female, of all races, and provides an alternative to the "moldy old photos of chaps in powdered wigs hundreds of years ago," and that the US Dept of Health and Human services commissioned it to help defray fear and prejudice directed at those who have Tourette's. citation needed IMO, the best of all worlds would be for someone to find a better, contemporary depiction, but I don't see the harm in having an inoffensive image, and as pointed out by AOL anon, it does potentially do some good in conveying current info about people with TS. Sandy 19:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Speculation, most likely a joke, and thoroughly discussed at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome: should be reverted whenever added here, to keep this article to encyclopedic content. Sandy 02:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Although the term unvoluntary is well-defined in this article and in the literature, it is frequently changed to involuntary here, perhaps by well-meaning editors who believe it is a typo, and don't read the text.
Please restore it whenever it is removed, as it is the correct usage. I will add an inline note. Sandy ( Talk) 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Content is often added here: is included already, along with contemporaries, at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome, this article discusses highly notables such as Mozart and Johnson, with others summarized in the daughter article. Sandy ( Talk) 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss the value of adding OMIM and the Diseases database to the infobox.
On
the diseases database, the information is of little value because, although the DSM-IV-TR was published six seven years ago, they still show the old DSM-IV criteria, and they contain nothing else not already covered in the article. I'd like to delete them from the infobox, if no one disagrees. They also claim TS increases risk for suicide: I'd love to see that data, since I've never come across it.
OMIM is far more problematic, as it is rife with blatantly inaccurate information. I'll list just some, starting at the top, until I give up:
Moving on from there, we find the source of the problems: the OMIM appears to rely heavily on old Comings' research. VERY little recent or well-accepted research is included here, and there is a preponderance of old Comings' research. The last edits made to the OMIM database are a year old: I could go on detailing the problems, but I suggest we delete these two entries; at best, they aren't helpful, at worst, they are misleading. Sandy ( Talk) 18:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a difference? Would it be better to be consistent? - Samsara ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
What a wonderful quality article. Great job to all those involved, and I'm sorry I couldn't weigh in before it got FA. :) - Francis Tyers · 01:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding deletion of referenced text twice, copied from:
The information I deleted from the Tourette syndrome site was not reliable information. In addition to having TS, I am a certified expert in the field, having worked extensively with the National Institute of Mental Health; as well as an accomplished attorney. I'm not an ignorant 14 year old out to destroy the credibility of the site; I'm trying, rather, to enhance it's credibility. Anyone with TS will tell you, the dogmatic assertion that "reassurances alone are usually sufficient treatment" is both offensive and factually inaccurate. Please dictate as you wish; I shall leave Wikipedia and seek out a more competent source of information that is not beleaguered by idiosyncratic monologues.
hutchesc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hutchesc ( talk • contribs)
There's a lot to sort out here, Immora. Digging in:
By the way, Immora, thank you for fixing that horrendous template that has been bugging me forever :-) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm new to editing beyond minor spelling corrections, so I don't know what the procedure is on this, but I would strongly suggest that this page be protected. I happened to Alt-X into this thing and of course it was loaded with profanity. Given the nature of the article, I'm kind of surprised the page wasn't protected long ago for precisely that reason. 66.236.8.30 03:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Requested semi-protection because of all the vandalism this month, especially Feb 12. Declined for now. "There is not enough recent activity to justify protection at this time. Much of the recent vandalism was by one user. Give it a day or two - if vandalism increases or continues at same levels 12 February for more than 1 day, then tje answer will probsbly be different. --Robdurbar." I thought yesterday had three or more users vandalising. Anyway, hopefully it won't continue. Immora 17:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Early versions of this article (like [2]) say information is from NIH ( http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/tourette.html). If this means actual content, they should be cited specially as a source. It is legal to use copy public domain material from the government outright, but all sources of content should be attributed. I'm not sure what that remark meant, though, or whether the article still uses the same info. Superm401 - Talk 04:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Neither the old Wiki version nor the K12 seem to come from NIH - K12 is a Wiki mirror. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The article text says "According to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ( DSM-IV-TR)". Strictly speaking, this is "the text-revision of the fourth edition of ..." or perhaps more succinctly "the revised fourth edition of ...".
According to Schapiro (2002), the controversial "marked distress" clause not present in DSM-III-R. The Summary of Practice-Relevant Changes to the DSM-IV-TR confirms this as an addition in DSM-IV and explains its removal. The article text says "Previous editions of the DSM included" this clause. If only the unrevised DSM-IV had the clause, then the plural "editions" is erroneous.
The above Summary document says that this clause "was added to the criteria sets of a majority of disorders in DSM-IV (Tic Disorders among them) in order to emphasize that a mental disorder should not be diagnosed in trivial cases (i.e., when the disturbance is so mild that it has little impact on the patient)". Given the controversy and the nature of how the addition occurred, I wonder if any authority on TS supported the clause. Schapiro claims that many ignored it. So, if this clause was merely a (more or less) careless addition to one revision of the manual, in use between 1994 and 2000, how important is it today? Does the discussion of the clause just muddy the waters for the reader by mentioning an expired controversy? If still of historical interest, could it be moved elsewhere in the article (or daughter article). Or is this mistaken clause still causing problems today? Colin° Talk 17:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
That clarifies things. I noticed that Schapiro (2002) mentions the controversy but not the revised edition (published 2000). What I didn't want was some old argument, of interest only to historical pedants, to confuse the current diagnostic criteria. I still wonder if it would be better for the lead paragraph of this section to concentrate on the actual criteria and move any erroneous criteria to a later paragraph. BTW: I've just spotted that the DSM change is mentioned again in the History section, where it uses a different and weaker source.
I've searched for the text of the DSM-IV-TR criteria and found Gilles de la Tourette’s syndrome and its impact in the UK, which I assume has a faithful transcription. Comparing this with the text in the article, I find two minor issues:
The precise wording of a definition or set of diagnostic criteria is important and no doubt agonised over by the experts. Should this article just quote all four of the criteria verbatim? It is quoting or using much of the text already. The reader would then have confidence that these weren't just an interpretation of the criteria.
I've also found that the DSM-III-R had 21 as the cut-off age rather than 18. Is the significance of this worth mentioning? Colin° Talk 18:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks for answering my tedious questions; sorry if they've cropped up before. If found several old discussion on DSM copyright, the main one being Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive57#DSM-IV-TR Copyright question. The article Dissociative identity disorder has handled this quite explicitly if inelegantly. Several editors commented that paraphrasing isn't ideal as it leads to errors and weakened definitions. It does, however, look like we can't quote the 100 or so words in the definition. This is galling since the definition is the result of review and consensus so to claim ownership of the results is a bit rich. "The primary purpose of the DSM is to facilitate communication" – hm?
Re: the age limit. You are obviously a better judge on whether this is important, esp. compared to the "significant distress" issue. The latter sounds like it is actually deserves more attention in the article than currently. That Summary document contains a fairly lame excuse for the introduction of the criterion. Colin° Talk 22:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent addition by an anon diff and feel compelled to provide a rationale, lest it appear I'm enforcing "ownership" of the article. As for late onset of TS, Chouinard and Ford (2000) studied 411 adults and found only seven could be diagnosed as having a true idiopathic, new-onset tic disorder, which is not defined as TS; rather, they maintain
The clinical evidence suggests that adult tic disorders are part of a range of illness that includes childhood onset tics and Tourette's syndrome.
As for the remaining additions: in the "Characteristics" section, the statement altered to read "the tics of Tourette's are sometimes temporarily suppressible and are at times preceded by a premonitory urge, although sometimes they occur spontaneously and without any warning" is, as such, no longer supported by the cited reference. The inserted paragraph "Although in some cases, for certain tics, the premonitory urge is entirely absent..." is unsourced and, quite frankly, sounds unlikely as it was presented; that is, however, just my humble opinion.
I don't mean to attack the validity of these additions, but please cite them or at least discuss further if you wish to re-add, so that other editors may verify them. Thanks, Fvasconcellos 23:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Riana dzasta for semi-protecting the article. My previous request was denied by a different person, and I was intending to request again after yesterday's fresh increase. The daily vandalism got tiring, and it's been bothering me that people are so immature and negative about TS. Anyway, thanks again. -- Immora 06:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I've attempted to rationalise the use of archive.org. The general practice on Wikipedia seems to be that web links do not need to be linked to a fixed archive snapshot. An "accessed" date is required, which could be used with a web archive to retrieve a version of the document should the link become dead or radically change. This has already happened on a number of links used by this article. The changes I've made are:
I hope this is OK and I haven't broken the existing careful punctuation. Colin° Talk 21:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)